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Thread: Vulture Mine Mtg. 10/5-Deer Valley community center

  1. #1

    Vulture Mine Mtg. 10/5-Deer Valley community center

    If you can make this meeting, please show up. When I get a call and an email request from Jeff Gursh, asking for our participation, I know it's important. Doug knows this is important and he brought to light, the earlier comment period. Please see the two releases below with both information on the when/where of the meeting and some talking points:

    OCTOBER MEETINGS
    Vulture Mine OHV Park Meeting
    October 5, 2017 at Deer Valley Community Center
    Please attend the Vulture Mine OHV meeting on Thursday October 5 at the Deer Valley Community Center at 2001 Wahalla Lane, Phoenix.
    This is a public open house type meeting from 6 pm to 8 pm. The meeting will be held by the Maricopa County Parks and Recreation Department, and invites the public’s comments on the design and development of the OHV area on the south portion of a proposed Recreation & Public Purposes Act (R&PP) lease of a 1,046-acre parcel in the Vulture Mountains area.
    During this meeting the staff from the MCPRD, EPS, and MCDOT will be available, along with maps of the proposed facilities for review and discussion. MCPRD will “kick-off” the open house with a presentation at 6:15 p.m.
    Under the proposal, MCPRD would develop a variety of recreational facilities on the south area of the R&PP including an OHV camp ground, staging area, OHV trail heads, restrooms, picnic ramadas, kids OHV training area, and other OHV related amenities. The R&PP Act allows for State, local governments and nonprofit organizations to apply for the leasing of public lands for the construction and maintenance of facilities such as schools, fire stations, and for parks.
    The BLM will analyze this plan and its considerations in accordance with the agency’s approved land use plan, Wickenburg Travel Management Plan, and BLM’s multiple-use mission which supports conservation while managing working landscapes and connects the American people to their natural and cultural heritage through experiences on their public lands.
    This is a opportunity for you to help in the development of this area.



    Please take the time to read through these talking points, provided to us, by our main lobbyist and our Table Mesa Ranger, Jeff G.

    Good Morning all,
    Please consider sending some one to this meeting on October 5th, sorry for late notice.........County seems to have an old OHV contact /stakeholder list from the meetings back in 2014..........so many did not get notice.
    Don , if you could let dirt bike clubs know....OCMC, Fastr ect
    Rebeca , if you could , post up on ASA4WD...........
    Steve TRAL
    Chris and David, Rock crawler and jeep clubs
    Also , if you would , let me know any clubs that did not get the email notice from County, would like to update theirs and BLM data base of clubs...........

    issues
    1. These proposed sites would most likely be pay /fee sites............for your use of public lands
    2. Will most likely ask for OHV monies to develop (share with non motorized)
    3. New rules for OHV events will require a closure of land during event, it may be very difficult to close the proposed county sites to comply with new rules ie NO motorized events.
    4. County does not have a very good record for following thru with OHV planned areas (Buckeye Hills west is now a County non motorized plan with no OHV)
    5. Vulture mine airstrip looks to be one of the county sites
    6. Would ask that BLM develop and put in place the no fee day use areas BEFORE County develops the fee sites.
    7. Request that county non motorized development stay on east side of Vulture mine road and that motorized main activity be the west side of Vulture mine road for PM 10 dust mitigation, boundary is PM10, PM10 issues are mainly on east side of Vulture mine road. with no county sites west of Vulture mine road, would be easier to comply with New BLM motorized event rules.

    Thank you for your help and time, sorry for the late request!

    Public Meeting – Vulture Mountain OHV area development meeting

    PHOENIX – Maricopa County Parks and Recreation Department invites the public’s comments on the design and development of the OHV area on the south portion of a proposed Recreation & Public Purposes Act (R&PP) lease of a 1,046-acre parcel in the Vulture Mountains area.

    A public open house-style meeting will be held October 5, 2017, from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. at the Phoenix Deer Valley Community Center located at 2001 W. Wahalla Lane., in Phoenix.

    During this open house-style meeting, staff from the MCPRD, EPS, and MCDOT will be available, along with maps of the proposed facilities for review and discussion. MCPRD will “kick-off” the open house with a presentation at 6:15 p.m.

    Under the proposal, MCPRD would develop a variety of recreational facilities on the south area of the R&PP including an OHV camp ground, staging area, OHV trail heads, restrooms, picnic ramadas, kids OHV training area, and other OHV related amenities. The R&PP Act allows for State, local governments and nonprofit organizations to apply for the leasing of public lands for the construction and maintenance of facilities such as schools, fire stations, and for parks.

    The BLM will analyze this plan and its considerations in accordance with the agency’s approved land use plan, Wickenburg Travel Management Plan, and BLM’s multiple-use mission which supports conservation while managing working landscapes and connects the American people to their natural and cultural heritage through experiences on their public lands.

    Any questions regarding this upcoming open house meeting may be directed to me.

    Thank you and we hope to see you there.

    Lauren Bromley

    Parks and Open Space Planner

    Environmental Professional

    Maricopa County Parks and Recreation Department

    41835 N Castle Hot Springs Road

    Morristown, AZ 85342-9887

    (928) 501-9207





    Jeff Gursh
    Table Mesa Ranger
    Bureau Of Land Management Partner
    The Arizona Off Highway Vehicle Coalition


    Please come if you can. Your talking points/points for comments have been provided above. Hope to see you there.
    yah, Huck you newbie, Rubicon drivin', mall Cruisin', bling-bling, bolt-on, got no drivin skillz, drove thru a AutoZone with a crap magnet attached, H2 wannabe, poseur! Pay attention!
    If you would pry your sorry arse out the Scottsdale Fashion Square once in a while you would know more about the BLM and the USFS (you do know those acronyms, right?).

  2. #2
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    Re: Vulture Mine Mtg. 10/5-Deer Valley community center

    The fee schedule for other parks:

    https://www.maricopacountyparks.net/fees/
    Non-College Educated Working Class White Deplorable....

  3. #3
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    Re: Vulture Mine Mtg. 10/5-Deer Valley community center

    I hope you don't mind Huck, I'm going to put my comment here to use as talking points as well.

    <begin paste>At first glance, I’m against this lease. I think the BLM should take a hard look at past park projects the county has been involved with. Some of my concerns are:

    1. Finishing projects in a timely manner. The White Tanks regional park entered their park system in 1961, and just recently had the electricity supplied to the camp sites. If this park is not going to be completed before opening to the public, then a time line should be created and should have been presented at the public scoping meeting. There are facilities and projects at other parks that seem to be unfinished as well. In some areas, studies were supposed to be done, and were not. If I’m correct, the San Tan regional park was established in 1988. Has the County met their expectations on that agreement? If not, why should we believe they will on this one? The BCC Trailhead area was supposed to be maintained by the county. The area was vandalized and not taken care of. The emphasis, it seems, was placed on double permits for events and trying to help manage the trail system. Double permitting should not be required or allowed. Its borderline illegal, in my opinion, since the county would be charging people to use the public lands. Double Permitting has caused a lot of organizations that used to hold events in those areas to move elsewhere. Also, “not for profit” fundraising events are now subject to fees and permits causing them to move. Schools are charged fees for the buses, etc. All of this leads to lack of participation.

    2. The Public scoping meeting on July 13th in Wickenburg left a lot to be desired. There was insufficient notification to the public stakeholders. Stakeholders include all people that use the lands. In order to get “Good Out” you need to put “Good In”. Step one of having Good In is having all the right people in the seats. The AZOHVC, and numerous other groups that should be considered Stakeholders were not notified and/or not present. Other things missing from the public scoping meeting include the county’s fee schedule and their written policy for OHV. As well as a time line for the construction of the facilities. I strongly suggest having another meeting, this time keeping in mind that there are a lot of stakeholders in the Phoenix area, and most are employed and have trouble getting to Wickenburg on a Wednesday evening.

    3. Maricopa County Parks and Recreation has no experience managing OHV. In the other parks they have leased, they have not adhered to the Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976 (FLPMA). The affected area for this project contains trails designated for OHV and Competitive OHV events. In the past, the County changes the rules to match their existing rules. I believe it was in 2009 I commented that the County needed to change their policy on Motorized Recreation if they were going to create this park. It has not happened yet.

    4. The contribution of MCDOT to the project raises some concerns as well. They plan to straighten the road near the North Area, which will increase speeds of vehicles, then create turning lanes. I think the turning lanes are very necessary, but I question removing the curve. The safety aspect, or lack thereof, of increasing speeds before the turn concerns me. I realize it’s out of scope for this project, but I’d really like to see the MCDOT maintain that road so the cattle guards do not injure backs and damage suspensions to vehicles and motorcycles.

    5. Target shooting? In regional parks it is not allowed. The County hopes to manage, or “help manage”, as it was said at the meeting, nearly 70,000 acres in this proposal. Since they have shown they do not adhere to the FLPMA of 1976, what happens to target shooting and hunting? The Policies of the County and those of Federal lands (Public lands) do not match.

    6. This R&PP should not try to preclude the BLM from creating other areas that can accommodate club use, such as defined in the Wickenburg TMP. One area that is identified as such an area is on Buckshot mine road. The BLM should be able to build new areas on BLM managed (Public) lands in this area. The Cooperative Management Agreement for this project should allow for the building of new areas.

    7. Because of the County’s limited experience in managing OHV’s and OHV activities, It should be left to the BLM and not R&PP at all.


    It’s for all these reasons that I strongly oppose this lease. The reasons listed above are substantial and should not be taken lightly. I and many others feel the County simply cannot be trusted with maintaining and building the area for OHV use.
    In addition to the above concerns, here are my additional concerns for the “Areas”:

    North Area:
    1. The “Day Use” area east of Vulture Mine Road needs to have adequate parking with access to the trails. This “Day Use” area could/should be used as dispersed camping, since the trail heads are on that side of the road. If campers are required to camp on the west side of the road, they need to have unpaved roads/trails used to access the trailheads on the east side. Motorized and non-motorized users should not be funneled onto the same trails. This will cause issues with Equestrian and Motorized users. The BLM has made some great strides in keeping the peace between those two groups, and so have the groups themselves.

    2. There are some trails going to the west of the North Area. Because the RMP and TMP allow for competitive events on the west side of Vulture Mine Road, these access points should allow for signage and/or closure to minimize/prevent interaction between the racers and the public.

    3. I’ll mention again that straightening the road will increase speeds of vehicles pulling trailers. If there is a turning lane installed, it should be long enough to accommodate several “rigs”.

    South Area:
    1. This area is bordered by private land to the west. I suggest pipe fencing like used at other OHV areas to prevent the area from encroaching on the undisturbed areas and the private lands. Not much else is needed, in my opinion, other than access. It should be an alternative to omit this area from the plan altogether. The Vulture Mountains are on the east side of the road. The park doesn’t need to stretch to the west side of the road in any location.

    2. Competitive events are held in this area. These events have taken place since the 70’s. I raced this course myself back then. These events are permit required events and we should not have to obtain a permit from both BLM and the County. Also, if the County builds facilities (restrooms), then that should no longer be a requirement for the permit. I recommend no facilities at the South area. Dispersed camping only. It’s important to understand the amount of people and vehicles that attend these events. It can easily be in excess of 500 vehicles. There will undoubtedly be fees for these vehicles under the County’s management, so these fees need to be disclosed prior to the lease being issued. We cannot accept “we haven’t gotten that far” as an answer. As it stands now, and under the FLPMA, the BLM charges fees for policing the staging area. It needs to be disclosed if the BLM will continue this activity or if the county will assume it. A lot of time and money went into the EIS, RMP and TMP to ensure the continuation of this competitive event. The County should not be allowed to interfere with it. They should try to enhance it.

    3. There has been talk for many years about overflow parking areas across the Vulture Mine road. These overflow parking areas can also be used to access trails on that side of the road.

    4. This area also needs turning lanes and ingress lanes that are long enough to allow multiple vehicles to use the when turning left, and to allow vehicles pulling trailers room to get up to speed when leaving the area.

    5. This South area is currently used as dispersed camping. It is not widely used throughout the year, but is heavily used during the events. One of the reasons I suggest little, or no, improvements to this area is the lack of fees collected in an area that is not used often. It’s important to note that once fees are being charged, many people that use these areas will move to other places.
    <end paste>
    Non-College Educated Working Class White Deplorable....

  4. #4

    Re: Vulture Mine Mtg. 10/5-Deer Valley community center

    Perfect, Doug. Thanks for sharing them. I plan to share your points, as well. Cross posted on other boards and on the FB page.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    yah, Huck you newbie, Rubicon drivin', mall Cruisin', bling-bling, bolt-on, got no drivin skillz, drove thru a AutoZone with a crap magnet attached, H2 wannabe, poseur! Pay attention!
    If you would pry your sorry arse out the Scottsdale Fashion Square once in a while you would know more about the BLM and the USFS (you do know those acronyms, right?).

  5. #5
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    Re: Vulture Mine Mtg. 10/5-Deer Valley community center

    Thanks Huck. See ya thursday
    RIP The Tetanus Shot

  6. #6
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    Re: Vulture Mine Mtg. 10/5-Deer Valley community center

    I'm not sure I can make this meeting. But I made the one in Wickenburg and have already submitted my comments. But I'm going to try. I'd like to print out the fee schedule and pass it out to everyone at the meeting.
    Non-College Educated Working Class White Deplorable....

  7. #7
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    Re: Vulture Mine Mtg. 10/5-Deer Valley community center

    I cringe every time I see OHV. To me that’s dirt bikes, quads and side by sides, not Jeeps. I guess those toys need a place to play but it seems like it’s at our expense. Bums me out.

  8. #8
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    Re: Vulture Mine Mtg. 10/5-Deer Valley community center

    Quote Originally Posted by armygreenjk View Post
    I cringe every time I see OHV. To me that’s dirt bikes, quads and side by sides, not Jeeps. I guess those toys need a place to play but it seems like it’s at our expense. Bums me out.
    Many years ago I tried to block the term "OHV" because of the lumping us all together. I could not get support. Jeeps are OHV. If you pull your 2500HD down a dirt road to unload your horses from the trailer, it's an OHV. That's why part of the gas tax goes into the OHV fund. It really sucks. I was on two wheels back then and did not want to lumped in with quads and side by sides.

    To me, and to the Game and Fish department, an OHV is <1800 pounds and requires the OHV sticker. To the State and County, it's any vehicle driven off highway.
    Non-College Educated Working Class White Deplorable....

  9. #9
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    Re: Vulture Mine Mtg. 10/5-Deer Valley community center

    I was thinking OHV meant <50 inches wide but I guess that’s considered ATV.

  10. #10
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    Re: Vulture Mine Mtg. 10/5-Deer Valley community center

    The forest has <50 inch trails for atv's. The BLM uses <60 inches. It's surprising that two parts of the government do things so differently....(sarcasm)

    From the Game and Fish website:

    Off-Highway Vehicle: A motorized vehicle
    when operated primarily on land, water, snow,
    ice, or other natural terrain. “OHV’ includes
    a two-wheel, three-wheel or four-wheel
    vehicle, motorcycle (greater than 49cc), dune
    buggy, amphibious vehicle, ground effects or
    aircushion vehicle and any other means of land
    transportation deriving motive power from a
    source other than muscle or wind. By definition,
    ATVs, UTVs, side by sides, RZRs®, ROVs,
    motorcycles, mopeds and snowmobiles are a


    The States definition...

    Off-Highway Vehicle (OHV): A motorized
    vehicle when operated primarily off of highways on
    land, water, snow, ice or other natural terrain or
    on a combination of land, water, snow, ice or other
    natural terrain. Includes a two-wheel, three-wheel
    or four-wheel vehicle, motorcycle, four-wheel drive
    vehicle, dune buggy, amphibious vehicle, ground
    effects or air cushion vehicle, and any other means
    of land transportation deriving motive power from
    a source other than muscle or wind
    But only the ones under 1800 lbs have to purchase the OHV sticker!
    Last edited by OTR-93YJ; 10-04-2017 at 05:29 PM.
    Non-College Educated Working Class White Deplorable....

  11. #11

    Re: Vulture Mine Mtg. 10/5-Deer Valley community center

    Quote Originally Posted by OTR-93YJ View Post
    The forest has <50 inch trails for atv's. The BLM uses <60 inches. It's surprising that two parts of the government do things like that
    This was an issue we worked on at the last meeting I was at, where county, state and federal officials were at. They joked about having different definitions...
    yah, Huck you newbie, Rubicon drivin', mall Cruisin', bling-bling, bolt-on, got no drivin skillz, drove thru a AutoZone with a crap magnet attached, H2 wannabe, poseur! Pay attention!
    If you would pry your sorry arse out the Scottsdale Fashion Square once in a while you would know more about the BLM and the USFS (you do know those acronyms, right?).

  12. #12
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    Re: Vulture Mine Mtg. 10/5-Deer Valley community center

    I'm not going to make this meeting.

    Please oppose this lease. Think about the lease to the city of Buckeye that ended the trails at White Tanks. At the very least, strongly oppose any county involvement on the west side of Vulture Mine Road.
    Non-College Educated Working Class White Deplorable....

  13. #13

    Vulture Mine Mtg. 10/5-Deer Valley community center

    Quote Originally Posted by OTR-93YJ View Post
    I'm not going to make this meeting.

    Please oppose this lease. Think about the lease to the city of Buckeye that ended the trails at White Tanks. At the very least, strongly oppose any county involvement on the west side of Vulture Mine Road.
    We have a few UT that will be there. I'll have all of the talking points, yours included, printed out for folks to read/use. Also planning to print out 20-30 'fee schedules' to handout at the MTG. We will be on a strong opposition format, however, this whole thing is being put on by the MCCRP department.... that doesn't bold well, for our opposition.
    yah, Huck you newbie, Rubicon drivin', mall Cruisin', bling-bling, bolt-on, got no drivin skillz, drove thru a AutoZone with a crap magnet attached, H2 wannabe, poseur! Pay attention!
    If you would pry your sorry arse out the Scottsdale Fashion Square once in a while you would know more about the BLM and the USFS (you do know those acronyms, right?).

  14. #14
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    Re: Vulture Mine Mtg. 10/5-Deer Valley community center

    I wish I could attend, but I have to be at work at 2 am. I can’t rely on anyone to assist me there as my counterpart feels he needs to threaten physical harm to anyone that dares inconvenience him by 2 mins. Despite the fact that he is 1-3 hours late every day, is slow as FK when he is working, and spends time between hauls washing his truck rather than finding other work that we must get done.

    Rant over.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bugs
    Jason is always a maybe even when he is confirmed!

  15. #15
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    Re: Vulture Mine Mtg. 10/5-Deer Valley community center

    I’ll be there but on the bike.

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