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Thread: New BLM TMP, for Bumble Bee, scoping meetings.

  1. #31
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    Re: New BLM TMP, for Bumble Bee, scoping meetings.

    Non-College Educated Working Class White Deplorable....

  2. #32
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    Re: New BLM TMP, for Bumble Bee, scoping meetings.

    So can you give a short list of trails for us to put in the comments. I have never wheeled in that area do not know what to comment on. Or post a copy of our submitted comments and I can paraphrase. I am concerned that if I just throw out a general 'Keep all trails open', that it will not count for anything. If that is sufficient, I can do that no prob.
    It's like an LJ... only bigger.

  3. #33

    New BLM TMP, for Bumble Bee, scoping meetings.

    Will do. I'm on the road for the next couple of hours, but when I get a chance to pullout the laptop, I'll post up a map and two specific trails were are attempting to get back on the BCC TMP. I would also add something about Turkey Creek if you like running that trail, too. It'll be a bit, but we are trying to get S&M (S&M1 and S&M2) and PMF added back to the inventory. They have been used since 2005.
    yah, Huck you newbie, Rubicon drivin', mall Cruisin', bling-bling, bolt-on, got no drivin skillz, drove thru a AutoZone with a crap magnet attached, H2 wannabe, poseur! Pay attention!
    If you would pry your sorry arse out the Scottsdale Fashion Square once in a while you would know more about the BLM and the USFS (you do know those acronyms, right?).

  4. #34
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    Re: New BLM TMP, for Bumble Bee, scoping meetings.

    Quote Originally Posted by OTR-93YJ View Post
    Best I can do on short notice.

    Tammy,

    It was good to meet you a few Mondays ago, and to have the opportunity to provide at least a little feedback on the Bumblebee area.

    As my email address might suggest I recreate frequently on two wheels, both mountain bike and dirt bike (when I want to cover a little more ground). I also own and 'wheel a relatively stock Jeep Wrangler, and Table Mesa, Tip Top, Turkey Creek, Castle Creek and Bumblebee are the most accessible of areas I enjoy for all these activities with small groups and solo. I was encouraged to see others I have explored with, and in the conversations I had with Rem and other agency employees attending.

    I was at the 2014 meeting as well, and was disappointed to see that some trails and TVRs that had been painstakingly added to the maps back then were not carried forward to the most recent editions. While I confine my stock vehicle to numbered routes other than those for buggies and technical vehicles, I know several of those folks and share their concerns over closures. Please heed their requests to keep their trails open, some of which have been utilized for decades and in addition to colorful nicknames have considerable history just as those TVRs in the Table Mesa area. S&M 1 and 2, Saw and Rip Saw are only a few that come to mind at the moment.

    A suggestion if I may - better labeled maps would greatly speed up and and focus public comment.

    Regards,
    Good judgement comes from experience. Experience more often than not comes from bad judgement.

  5. #35

    Re: New BLM TMP, for Bumble Bee, scoping meetings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cactus Ed View Post
    Best I can do on short notice.

    S&M 1 and 2, Saw and Rip Saw are only a few that come to mind at the moment.

    A suggestion if I may - better labeled maps would greatly speed up and and focus public comment.

    Regards,
    Nicely done. That said, it's S&M 1 and 2 that we want on the map, along with PMF. Saw and Jig Saw appear to be currently on Map #3
    yah, Huck you newbie, Rubicon drivin', mall Cruisin', bling-bling, bolt-on, got no drivin skillz, drove thru a AutoZone with a crap magnet attached, H2 wannabe, poseur! Pay attention!
    If you would pry your sorry arse out the Scottsdale Fashion Square once in a while you would know more about the BLM and the USFS (you do know those acronyms, right?).

  6. #36
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    Re: New BLM TMP, for Bumble Bee, scoping meetings.

    Out of curiosity, what type of enforcement exists for them these days?
    Flexes like a boneless hooker on muscle relaxers

  7. #37

    Re: New BLM TMP, for Bumble Bee, scoping meetings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Howyadoin View Post
    Out of curiosity, what type of enforcement exists for them these days?
    Same as always. They may be short staffed, but they still write tickets and can arrest you, if necessary. Typically for that type of issue, they call in the county Sheriff Dept.
    yah, Huck you newbie, Rubicon drivin', mall Cruisin', bling-bling, bolt-on, got no drivin skillz, drove thru a AutoZone with a crap magnet attached, H2 wannabe, poseur! Pay attention!
    If you would pry your sorry arse out the Scottsdale Fashion Square once in a while you would know more about the BLM and the USFS (you do know those acronyms, right?).

  8. #38

    Re: New BLM TMP, for Bumble Bee, scoping meetings.

    Finally able to use the laptop. You'll be able to see the trails on this map and you can ask that 'all' the trails from this 3/11/14 and revised 4/1014 map, be represented on the current BCC TMP. The main map we use for crawling trails is the BLM map 3.

    I can't link the map I've got (.pdf), with the website. The link for the BLM map is: https://eplanning.blm.gov/epl-front-...9518/Map_3.pdf

    You can see Saw and JigSaw located toward the bottom left of grid M3. PMF and the S&M's are missing from grid N3, heading up to grid N2.

    Hope that helps a little bit. If anyone can post the map from 3/11/14, please do and you can see the missing trails along with Saw and JigSaw.
    yah, Huck you newbie, Rubicon drivin', mall Cruisin', bling-bling, bolt-on, got no drivin skillz, drove thru a AutoZone with a crap magnet attached, H2 wannabe, poseur! Pay attention!
    If you would pry your sorry arse out the Scottsdale Fashion Square once in a while you would know more about the BLM and the USFS (you do know those acronyms, right?).

  9. #39
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    Re: New BLM TMP, for Bumble Bee, scoping meetings.

    I have the map from 3/11/14 but I can't post it either.
    Non-College Educated Working Class White Deplorable....

  10. #40
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    Re: New BLM TMP, for Bumble Bee, scoping meetings.

    OK, got my comments sent in. Thanks for the info. In my opinion, everyone who sends in a letter should post it here. That way, users not familiar with the area can use it to construct their comments. You will get some people who just cut and paste, and that is no nearly as effective. But it can help others define theirs. Mine is below. Mine comes from a more disgruntled perspective.




    In general, motorized travel on public lands is under siege and designated routes make up an extremely small portion of the overall public land mass. This is never considered in route planning. Additionally the amount of users participating in motorized travel has sky rocketed over the last 10 years, yet every travel plan only proposes to close roads and end up with less overall legally travelable routes. Public lands are there for the use of the people. If more people use motorized travel, then more routes should be opened. It’s a simple problem with a simple solution. There is more than enough public land to separate motorized from non-motorized users.

    The different types of users of motorized travel also needs to be considered. It’s no longer just a guy in a pickup truck looking for a hunting spot. Motorcycles, quads, UTV’s, full size vehicles and purpose built rock crawlers now populate the trails and each needs to be considered and routes need to be established to meet each type of user’s/vehicle’s needs.

    As for specific trails, Turkey Creek definitely needs to remain open. This is an excellent trail for all users with great site seeing and technical challenges for skilled drivers. Its troubling to see that technical rock crawling routes known as PMF and S&M 1 and 2 are missing from the latest route map. These were included on the 3/11/14 map and showed in Grid N3. These must be added back into the new route map as there are so few trails that offer this level of technical rock crawling. This sport has seen an explosion in users in recent years and these users’ needs must be addressed.
    It's like an LJ... only bigger.

  11. #41
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    Re: New BLM TMP, for Bumble Bee, scoping meetings.

    I can't post all of mine here because I used attachments. But I may have bit off more than I can chew. I mentioned forming a coalition of users to act as stewards for the extreme trails in the BB area. They asked if I would volunteer to help get that set up...I said yes.

    I did tell them it would be very hard to build a coalition and partnership with people if they close their trails. I may have to get to know the crawler crowd a little better in the near future.

    The email chain is 15 exchanges long, but this was my first comment:


    My comment on the Bumble Bee area TMP.
    Attached you will find a partial list of “extreme” trails. This is a partial list, there are more in the area that are used frequently. These trails are for purpose built vehicles and on a scale of 1-5, with 5 being the toughest, these are mostly 6’s and 7’s. These trails should remain open for this use. The Table Mesa project proved to be successful and sustainable. This area should be treated the same. These trails are much more difficult to travel than most at Table Mesa.
    In the not so distant past, a lot of these type of trails were closed in the far west valley (on BLM land). The area became closed to motorized recreation and trails that had been used for many years were no longer available. This resulted in two things happening: People continuing to use the trails illegally AND people making new trails in other areas. I’m sure the intentions of closing the area were good, but the results varied.
    These purpose built vehicles need and deserve a place to recreate. Bumble Bee is a perfect place. These trails require NO maintenance. Mother Nature is the best steward in this case.
    Closing these trails will force the recreation to move elsewhere. Closing some of the trails will cause more use on the ones that are open. I strongly feel this is not the place to close trails, not even a percentage of them.
    My vehicle is not yet built to navigate these trails but it’s in the plans. I’d like to be able to use this map and run these trails in the future.

    There are other trails in the area that I use frequently. One of them is called Turkey Creek. You access it off the bumble bee exit and one of the options at the end takes you into Cleator. This is one of my wife’s favorite trails. It’s a great trail for all types of vehicles, with a little bit of ground clearance. The trail has been used for many years and I’d like it to stay open.


    Then I submitted other comments about the economic value of the trails to local businesses, etc. But they already know all that.
    Last edited by OTR-93YJ; 06-07-2017 at 08:34 AM.
    Non-College Educated Working Class White Deplorable....

  12. #42
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    Re: New BLM TMP, for Bumble Bee, scoping meetings.

    Excellent letter. You said it better than I did!

    Please keep me in the loop with the "coalition". I would like to be a part of it.
    RIP The Tetanus Shot

  13. #43
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    Re: New BLM TMP, for Bumble Bee, scoping meetings.

    Quote Originally Posted by OTR-93YJ View Post
    I can't post all of mine here because I used attachments. But I may have bit off more than I can chew. I mentioned forming a coalition of users to act as stewards for the extreme trails in the BB area. They asked if I would volunteer to help get that set up...I said yes.

    I did tell them it would be very hard to build a coalition and partnership with people if they close their trails. I may have to get to know the crawler crowd a little better in the near future.

    The email chain is 15 exchanges long, but this was my first comment:


    My comment on the Bumble Bee area TMP.
    Attached you will find a partial list of ďextremeĒ trails. This is a partial list, there are more in the area that are used frequently. These trails are for purpose built vehicles and on a scale of 1-5, with 5 being the toughest, these are mostly 6ís and 7ís. These trails should remain open for this use. The Table Mesa project proved to be successful and sustainable. This area should be treated the same. These trails are much more difficult to travel than most at Table Mesa.
    In the not so distant past, a lot of these type of trails were closed in the far west valley (on BLM land). The area became closed to motorized recreation and trails that had been used for many years were no longer available. This resulted in two things happening: People continuing to use the trails illegally AND people making new trails in other areas. Iím sure the intentions of closing the area were good, but the results varied.
    These purpose built vehicles need and deserve a place to recreate. Bumble Bee is a perfect place. These trails require NO maintenance. Mother Nature is the best steward in this case.
    Closing these trails will force the recreation to move elsewhere. Closing some of the trails will cause more use on the ones that are open. I strongly feel this is not the place to close trails, not even a percentage of them.
    My vehicle is not yet built to navigate these trails but itís in the plans. Iíd like to be able to use this map and run these trails in the future.

    There are other trails in the area that I use frequently. One of them is called Turkey Creek. You access it off the bumble bee exit and one of the options at the end takes you into Cleator. This is one of my wifeís favorite trails. Itís a great trail for all types of vehicles, with a little bit of ground clearance. The trail has been used for many years and Iíd like it to stay open.


    Then I submitted other comments about the economic value of the trails to local businesses, etc. But they already know all that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Woody View Post
    Excellent letter. You said it better than I did!

    Please keep me in the loop with the "coalition". I would like to be a part of it.
    I mentioned the same thing at the Buckeye Hills meeting re: coalition to preserve trails with a set-up similar to TM. I will probably "borrow" some of your letter! I'll gladly volunteer to take lead, if needed but do not have the experience to take on a project of this magnitude. Then again, at the rate these projects seem to move, I'll have plenty of time to learn!

    Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

  14. #44

    Re: New BLM TMP, for Bumble Bee, scoping meetings.

    I had several exchanges with Tammy. This is most of my first exchange, where I wanted to set up our past relationship with the BLM, as we move forward with the new TMP. Some personal information has been removed from my excerpt:

    Good Morning ,
    It was a pleasure meeting you, at the DVCC meeting. I wanted to provide my comments, prior to the closing of the comment period. A few things first.
    I do request confidentiality, to the extent provided by law.

    Group affiliation: AZ Undertakers 4x4


    A little background on my experience with the Table Mesa area TMP and with the 2014 planning meeting/s, for the current Black Canyon Corridor (BCC) TMP. I participated in meetings for both TMP’s and worked alongside of Tom B (BLM) and Jeff G, with several members of the rock crawler community, to get CD (TM TV6) re-opened. I was with Tom B, the day we re-opened the trail and ran the gatekeeper for the first time, after being closed. We also currently work with Jeff Gursh and the BLM on maintaining TV6. This includes replacing cut fencing, signage and any repairs necessary. (video from a recent workday with Jeff: https://youtu.be/zWTkuC1rsDk)

    In 2014, I attended the original planning meeting/s, regarding the BCC TMP. During the first meeting, I learned that all TV trails we had been running/using, for years, were not included in the route inventory. Per Tom B, this was due to the fact that when the BLM drove the area they either didn’t notice the trails or didn’t think they could be run. On Tom’s suggestion, a group of us met with Jeff over pizza and a few maps. We provided Jeff with the names, locations, and dates originally run, of many of the trails out there. It turns out that we missed 2 trails, however, I can’t prove the dates we were originally on them. The meeting was successful and the map you were provided earlier, by ' ' and the same map I’ll be attaching to this email for reference, was born. That map exists, because of the information we provided to the BLM. We were told, at that time, that the original route inventory was based on a 2010 survey. This was confirmed at the latest meeting. We were also told that at the same time, a new land with wilderness characteristics area, was designated. Two of our trails, from that original meeting and map discussion, run through that 'newly designated' area. Because of this new designation, both trails were left off of the current proposed route inventory (BCC TMP).

    The focus of my comments today, are to re-establish those two trails, on the current BCC TMP. The two trails are designated, on the attached map .pdf, as #7 and #2/#8. They are named PMF and S&M 1/S&M 2. Both trails appear to be located on BLM Map 3, grid areas N3 and possibly, a bit of N2. Trail #2 S&M was being run back in 2004.
    Here are a few links to pictures and video of S&M being run in 2005:
    http://www.azrockcrawler.com/_images.../11-27-05.html You will find S&M referenced on the second page of the post.
    This is a screen capture of videos, all from S&M and dated 2006.
    SandM.JPG

    This is video of a group running S&M, along with several others from 2007. https://youtu.be/SvJsEzWedOo
    This video starts with the fall on S&M, from 2007. https://youtu.be/ulumemhX5CA
    This video is of S &M and has been posted since 2008. https://youtu.be/wGUgcCJiVnA
    This video is of S&M, from 2008. https://youtu.be/y2zJOc-welQ
    A quick youtube search will show you a lot more video and a quick google search will find you a ton of images. The S&M trails have been run, for over a decade. Just because they were missed on the original route inventory, is not a reason to keep them off of the inventory. Most consider S&M 1 and 2 to just be S&M and they love the trail. Folks have been missing it, since it was designated ‘closed’ and we really want to see it added back to the current BCC TMP. An arbitrary designation, because usage was missed, is not a reason to close the trail. We would like to see S&M 1 and 2, (#2 and #8 on the attached map) added to the TV trail system on the BCC TMP.

    Trail #7, PMF, is another favorite of the local wheeling community. It was also being run/used back in 2005.
    Footage of it being run can be seen in this video compilation from 2007. https://youtu.be/X1b5kjzmxlw There are several parts to this video series and the earlier discussed S&M trails are also shown. Please look in the description for the trails included on this video.
    While a bit newer, this footage from 2014 shows the specific trail, which can be seen in multiple compilation videos. https://youtu.be/0P6e9JJloDU

    I will work on getting more proof of PMF, trail #7, being used prior to 2010. I know folks were running it back in 2005, but I was not up to that level at that time and have no pics of my own to share. I would like to see this local favorite and a favorite trail of mine, PMF, trail #7 added to the current proposed BCC TMP.

    Both PMF and S&M should be grand-fathered into the new TMP. The land with wilderness characteristics designation was added after the 2010 survey, many years after the trails in that area were already being used by rock crawlers.

    Please reach out to me if you have any questions or concerns. I would like to help and would happily provide assistance, if needed. I appreciate the open attitude the BLM has shown for our sport, over the years. We enjoy our partnership with the BLM and would like to see a couple of our beloved trails added to the current route inventory. The AZ Undertakers have currently adopted TV6 at Table Mesa. We would welcome the opportunity to adopt both PMF and S&M, in order to keep the trails and the area properly maintained. Thank you.


    I had several more exchanges. I was able to provide more proof of PMF being used prior to 2010, as well. I don't know if reading this excerpt helps or not, but it was the most technical of all my exchanges. I tried to push the partnership issue for the new TMP and was happy to hear about Doug's idea, as well. Seems as if there were a few birdies chirping in their ear.
    Last edited by Huck; 06-09-2017 at 11:15 AM.
    yah, Huck you newbie, Rubicon drivin', mall Cruisin', bling-bling, bolt-on, got no drivin skillz, drove thru a AutoZone with a crap magnet attached, H2 wannabe, poseur! Pay attention!
    If you would pry your sorry arse out the Scottsdale Fashion Square once in a while you would know more about the BLM and the USFS (you do know those acronyms, right?).

  15. #45
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    Re: New BLM TMP, for Bumble Bee, scoping meetings.

    Well said Huck. Your efforts are much appreciated. I couldn't have said it better.
    RIP The Tetanus Shot

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