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Thread: Ok smart people... Deleting diesels & other options.

  1. #1
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    Ok smart people... Deleting diesels & other options.

    My son recently deleted his 6.7 Cummins. I checked out all his removed emissions crap and there is a **** ton of soot in the intake horn. I am aware of being deleted and the benefits. What I recently came across though was an article about water meth injection and how it can actually keep the engine cleaner with the emmisions intact and that deletes for guys like me with a 65k new truck, love the concept of deleting but don't want to throw the warranty out the door.

    Now there a ton of variables out there. And I have researched and have read many times over that basically deleting does not necessarily make more power per-se on "stock" trucks. Just the effiency of the engine is enhanced and it mainly relates to lower EGT's and the debatable question of reliability is enhanced.

    Many articles on the topic of reliability being just related to blown EGT coolers and really nothing on actual engine or injector reliability deleted or not. Just the emissions stuff being the culprit in failures but no harm to the engine.

    So reading the research on water/meth has lead me to believe that adding this system will keep the engine actually cleaner and will make a power/TQ increase as well as keep EGTs lower than a delete.

    Some of my reasoning is my own thinking after other reading, that many delete companies tell you that the EGR puts "dirty soot" back into your engine. But common sense tells me there really is nothing "dirty" about the soot. It's just unburned fuel going for a second round in the engine. Besides, the soot is from the combustion of the engine and was already there to begin with.

    Now with that, I agree the hot gasses being recirculated into the engine is the main issue on EGR systems because the EGT's are then hotter. And I agree that that kills power when that hot gas is being reintroduced with your cold air from the intake after the intercooler. So thus the idea of using water/meth sounds like a win win modification with the same benefits if not better than deleting.

    For the record, info run a tunner that has really made an increase in power and mileage and I have not had issues with EGT's even pulling my enclosed. The '15 Cummins has a lot of engineering into it and it works great stock. Yeah I know the tuner can void the warranty, but my dealer is good with it as well as I can lock it out of any power modes and just show it to be gauges and a camera monitor only. That is way easier than trying to put together all your parts back in a vehicle after a delete for warranty work.

    Oh and I will delete eventually, issue is, as much as I don't use the truck, my 100k engine warranty will not be up until 15 years from now! Of course the 5 years (I think) will be expired by then LOL!

    So please tell me your experiences and maybe thoughts on what I am missing about this thinking.

    Thanks!
    My name is Daniel. I pretty much STILL do what I want.

  2. #2
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    Re: Ok smart people... Deleting diesels & other options.

    Are you not happy with your truck? What are you trying to accomplish? If it's not broke, dont fix it.

    I believe all the R&D that Chrysler put into the ctd design dwarfs any "tuning" company's R&D. Do you want a reliable truck or a fast truck? They are not one in the same.

  3. #3
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    Re: Ok smart people... Deleting diesels & other options.

    Tuner = better mileage and power than what "Cummins" (Not Chrysler) had designed with restrictions in place. Cummins also designed their engine to be detuned but retain the robustness and reliability of that engines actual capability.

    So anyway, tuner also = more soot due to more fuel. From what I have researched is water/meth compliments the emmisions system and has an added benefit of more power.
    My name is Daniel. I pretty much STILL do what I want.

  4. #4
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    Re: Ok smart people... Deleting diesels & other options.

    I can't answer, but will say when I pulled my EGR valve out there was a lot of soot in there. A lot! I'm not sure what I'm going to do about it yet, if anything.
    Non-College Educated Working Class White Deplorable....

  5. #5
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    Re: Ok smart people... Deleting diesels & other options.

    I forwarded your question to Chris @ Rowdy Racks!
    He doesn't do nothing but BIG DIESELS anymore.
    Includeing entire rebuilds.
    I'll forward his response to ya if he responds!

    Dave
    Im back to the drawing board
    STAY TUNED!

  6. #6
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    Re: Ok smart people... Deleting diesels & other options.

    So everybody can see the response from Chris at rowdy racks
    Here ya go,,,,,,

    First off water methinal will void warranty anyway. We do about 10 of these trucks a month on full deletes. The benefits are as follows: Most get 14 mpg stock, after we do the deletes and efi love tunes they average 20 mpg. Doing the egr delete saves the chances of failure. Dodges have issues when the dpf gets clogged the exhaust try to come back into the turbo causing the turbo to go into a flat spin thus trashing the bearings. A factory 6.7 turbo from dodge is 3250.00. We have had a few that took the tuebonout causing to much head pressure blowing a head gasket. The way I do the deletes the trucks will still pass emissions. We do a lot of fleet trucks and have one company that we did 5 trucks deletes after there warranty was up. The owner bought and brand new 2016 and we did the deletes on it at 260 miles on it cause he said once we did the deletes I his fleet trucks they hadn't had many issues. He would rather void his warranty and have a reliable truck then it be in the shop all the time
    And if the injector pump for the deff goes out its like 3600.00 I been told cause you have to replace the whole tank assembly.

    Dave
    Im back to the drawing board
    STAY TUNED!

  7. #7
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    Re: Ok smart people... Deleting diesels & other options.

    Oops!
    Im back to the drawing board
    STAY TUNED!

  8. #8
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    Re: Ok smart people... Deleting diesels & other options.

    I think you could use some improvement in your understanding of how these systems work and what exactly they do.

    For starters, it helps to keep your acronyms consistent so people can follow what you're talking about i.e. EGR = Exhaust Gas Recirculation, EGT = Exhaust Gas Temperature. You also mentioned deleting diesel, does this mean your intent is to swap in a gas motor or change your fuel of choice to gas (kidding)

    I'm not too familiar with water/methanol injection in diesels aside from many guys using it as a power adder, but I am very intimate with EGR systems. Here's what they are and what they do. As the name implies, they recirculate a small amount of spent exhaust gas back into the intake system, I think everyone gets this point. The point that people don't understand is they why and to some extent, the how.

    The why is that it helps decrease NOx emissions, that's it. Deleting it will increase your NOx emissions, if you have a tender place in your heart for mother Gaia, I would recommend keeping this system in place. If clubbing baby seals and making baby Jesus cry is more your style then I'd recommend removing the system.

    Here's the how it works on a chemical level. NOx is produced in high heat, high pressure environments. Remember that the air we breath is roughly 80% nitrogen and 20% oxygen, this is the same air that goes into your engine. When you have the high heat and high pressure, N2 gas can chemically combine with O2 gas to form NOx. To prevent the from happening you reduce either the heat or the pressure. This is where EGR comes in. By recirculating some exhaust gas we're able to cool the combustion chamber down. Seems kind of counter intuitive because exhaust gas is hot right? Well, remember high school chemistry when we found out the compressing gas makes it hotter? Many of us forget that rapidly decreasing the pressure of gas makes it cooler. This is what happens with your exhaust gas, it comes out pretty hot, but also at a pretty high pressure. When you drop that pressure, it cools down to the point where you can recirculate in back into the intake and cool the intake charge.

    Exhaust gas is also an inert gas. When you mentioned that EGR recirculates unburnt fuel that is 100% false. The combustion process is finished and the leftover products can't be burnt again. Because they're inert they also help slow down the combustion process, which helps decrease combustion chamber pressure. So that pretty much covers reducing the heat and pressure that we were concerned about before. Mother Gaia is now happy and baby seals are safe from clubbing.

    In all engines, but more so in diesel engines, carbon is also a byproduct of combustion. This is where the problems with diesel EGR systems start to come in. There isn't an effective way to sort out the good exhaust gas from the dirty carbon, so it all goes into the stew of your EGR system. This builds up over time, gets clogged, etc,etc. Many diesel EGR systems also need a little extra help cooling the exhaust gasses so they have heat exchangers to cool the exhaust gas. These are prone to clogging as well developing coolant leaks into the EGR systems. Because the exhaust gas in these exchangers are destined for the intake system, a large coolant leak is headed to the same place. A large enough leak and you have a hydrolocked engine which is great fun for everyone!

    I know this answers 0% of your questions about water/meth injection and EGR systems....and deleting, diesel? But at least it should give you a little better understanding of what exactly an EGR system is and does.
    I'ma cookin' somethin' up!

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    Re: Ok smart people... Deleting diesels & other options.

    Quote Originally Posted by azdieselpower View Post
    are you not happy with your truck? What are you trying to accomplish? If it's not broke, dont fix it.

    I believe all the r&d that chrysler put into the ctd design dwarfs any "tuning" company's r&d. Do you want a reliable truck or a fast truck? They are not one in the same.
    ^ this...
    Working for a living is highly over-rated...

  10. #10
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    Re: Ok smart people... Deleting diesels & other options.

    Ok let me clear something up as it was a long post and maybe most of you don't get it. I am wanting to keep my emissions system for now. The water/methanol is a benefit to this system as far as I have researched and so far zero of you have addressed that. That is the basis of my question. Obviously no one here has used this set up.

    Did you know Rudolf Diesel used water injected into his patented Diesel engine?

    So you ask if I am happy with my truck??? Yes of course, I am wanting to enhance the engineered system. Are you not reading it what I posted??

    TJ tim, thanks for your response, I disagree with you in the EGR and Unburnt fuel in a diesel. I agree with you on that point for a gasoline engine. Diesels a completely different fuel and the characteristics are not the same as gasoline. Thus why us diesel owners are concerned with EGT's and gasoline engine owners are not.

    Unfortunately your answer also contradicts Rowdy Rack guys answer as he states his deletes will pass emissions. So obviously he is not increasing NOX past limits... Answer that please since you have the better understanding of it... (PS I am a trained tech to set emmisions on natural gas engines which are the same principal as other fossil fuel engines in relation to VOC's etc).
    Last edited by ZJROCKRIG; 03-15-2016 at 10:41 PM.
    My name is Daniel. I pretty much STILL do what I want.

  11. #11
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    Re: Ok smart people... Deleting diesels & other options.

    Oh, Dave & Doug. Thank you for reading my post and especially the title and answering with your appropriate response. .
    My name is Daniel. I pretty much STILL do what I want.

  12. #12
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    Re: Ok smart people... Deleting diesels & other options.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZJROCKRIG View Post
    Ok let me clear something up as it was a long post and maybe most of you don't get it. I am wanting to keep my emissions system for now. The water/methanol is a benefit to this system as far as I have researched and so far zero of you have addressed that. That is the basis of my question. Obviously no one here has used this set up.

    Did you know Rudolf Diesel used water injected into his patented Diesel engine?

    So you ask if I am happy with my truck??? Yes of course, I am wanting to enhance the engineered system. Are you not reading it what I posted??

    TJ tim, thanks for your response, I disagree with you in the EGR and Unburnt fuel in a diesel. I agree with you on that point for a gasoline engine. Diesels a completely different fuel and the characteristics are not the same as gasoline. Thus why us diesel owners are concerned with EGT's and gasoline engine owners are not.

    Unfortunately your answer also contradicts Rowdy Rack guys answer as he states his deletes will pass emissions. So obviously he is not increasing NOX past limits... Answer that please since you have the better understanding of it... (PS I am a trained tech to set emmisions on natural gas engines which are the same principal as other fossil fuel engines in relation to VOC's etc).
    Not sure about different locations but in AZ the diesel emissions check is a visual check for equipment and a snap acceleration test to check opacity. NOX is not tested so if you do a non visual delete and don't blow to much smoke it will pass.
    Water/Meth is older than dirt, don't know the long term effects in a diesel but it was used extensively in aviation, pre turbine engine days to boost takeoff power in round engines, it works. Get it installed and report on the effectiveness, I might go that route.
    your mileage may vary

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    Re: Ok smart people... Deleting diesels & other options.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZJROCKRIG View Post
    Oh, Dave & Doug. Thank you for reading my post and especially the title and answering with your appropriate response. .
    Sorry I can't be of more help. I do understand your concerns. All of my research on 6.0 failures points to the soot build up. Some were caused by chips and it appears some were not. I applaud you for thinking about the consequences instead of just chipping it blindly.

    Please, as mentioned, let us know what you find out.
    Non-College Educated Working Class White Deplorable....

  14. #14
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    Re: Ok smart people... Deleting diesels & other options.

    Don't ask for other people thoughts if you do not want to hear them. You understand you asked for them right?

    Yes, I meant Cummins and not Chrysler. Thanks for pointing that out.

    As for the water/meth injection as related to being a compliment to your emissions, I do not think the cost of the system will justify benefits you see on the emissions, if any. Depending on the mix of water/meth you run would impact how the truck runs with regards to emissions. If you run all water, the engine will run cooler and you can dump more fuel into it, the problem here is that more fuel might mean more emissions depending on the tuning. If you run more meth in the mix, I think you will run cleaner with more power but you might have to deal with egt issues at that point.

    With my old truck, it originally had water/meth put on it as part of its build (performance) but was taken off because it did not help the truck, so it was sold to fund other upgrades. Years later as part of the second build (tow/reliability) it went through, I considered adding water/meth and could not justify the cost for the minimal benefits that I would see.

    Getting back to my original point, if water/meth would make a diesel engine run better under today's standards, I believe cummins would have included that system in their design considering it's been out for awhile now. After spending the money you did on a new truck that you are happy with it, I would leave it alone. But I get it, that wasn't the option you wanted to hear.

  15. #15
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    Re: Ok smart people... Deleting diesels & other options.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZJROCKRIG View Post
    Ok let me clear something up as it was a long post and maybe most of you don't get it. I am wanting to keep my emissions system for now. The water/methanol is a benefit to this system as far as I have researched and so far zero of you have addressed that. That is the basis of my question. Obviously no one here has used this set up.

    Did you know Rudolf Diesel used water injected into his patented Diesel engine?

    So you ask if I am happy with my truck??? Yes of course, I am wanting to enhance the engineered system. Are you not reading it what I posted??

    TJ tim, thanks for your response, I disagree with you in the EGR and Unburnt fuel in a diesel. I agree with you on that point for a gasoline engine. Diesels a completely different fuel and the characteristics are not the same as gasoline. Thus why us diesel owners are concerned with EGT's and gasoline engine owners are not.

    Unfortunately your answer also contradicts Rowdy Rack guys answer as he states his deletes will pass emissions. So obviously he is not increasing NOX past limits... Answer that please since you have the better understanding of it... (PS I am a trained tech to set emmisions on natural gas engines which are the same principal as other fossil fuel engines in relation to VOC's etc).
    We both read your post clearly, and responded with what you were seeking on a public forum... OPINIONS. Just so happens that our opinion that modifying these engineered systems (whether engineered by Chrysler or Cummins) is counter-productive to longevity. Simple as that.

    As for Rudolf Diesel having included water injection in his original patent, water injection is primarily used to keep an IC engine's combustion temps under control at or very near short-term, WOT full power needs (such as for airplane takeoffs). I have yet to see it used to increase longevity, and am not aware of any OEM production IC engines (diesel or otherwise) in use for ground transportation vehicles, which are making use of that technology.

    As for your disagreeing with TJ jim on diesel & indolene reacting differently in regards to unburned fuels in the exhaust, you seem to refute that yourself, by indicating that all fossil fuels react similarily regarding VOC's.

    What TJ jim clarified and you seem to have missed, is that these types of modifications are made for power level increases, NOT longevity. As for the "expert" @ Rowdy Racks... What would you expect to hear from a guy who makes a pretty decent living, modifying customers vehicles? Do you REALLY believe he would tell customers to go away, spend your money elsewhere with someone else?

    Bottom line is pretty simple. IF you are only going to keep it for a short time, then move on to the next bigger and better thing, AND for some reason you believe it doesn't have enough power for your needs, then go with whatever mods you have the $'s and inclination for, and if it breaks, you can only blame yourself. On the other hand, if you plan on keeping it for a long time, and put bigger miles on it, as I have done with my own which is currently @ 380,000 miles, then my experience and opinion is that you NOT add all the farkle and sparkle, unless you are willing to spend more on the shortened life these type of modifications are highly likely to cause.

    As for me, I TRULY care less what you do with your vehicle. It's your $, so spend it like you see fit. I simply don't understand why you would come on a public forum asking for opinions, then start bashing folks because they don't share you opinions, and aren't responding with the answers agreeing with what you want to hear.
    Working for a living is highly over-rated...

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