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Thread: Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Travel Plan Comment Period

  1. #1
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    Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Travel Plan Comment Period

    If you recreate in the A/S Forest please make time to attend one of these mettings. Your input on the trail system is going to be very valuable to keeping untold miles of trails open. As Sandee told me today, "It's Red Shirt time on this one"

    Attention Eastern Arizona and Western New Mexico recreationists!

    The Apache-Sitgreaves National Forests have released a modified proposal for motorized use on the Forests, which is now available for public comment. The proposal is one of several possible alternatives that will be developed and analyzed over the next six months.

    The Forest Service will be hosting a series of open houses pertaining to this most recent proposal for a future motorized transportation system. There will be no formal presentation at any of these open houses, but you will be able to discuss the proposal with Forest Service employees.

    Maps of the modified proposal and documents describing the proposal can be seen at the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forests web site at: www.fs.fed.us/r3/asnf/projects/travel-management. The public is also invited to view the proposal and provide written comments at the closest scheduled open house (See schedule below).

    Meetings Schedule:

    Thursday, March 6, 2008 3 p.m. to 7 p.m. &
    Saturday, March 8, 2008 9 a.m. to 1 p.m.
    Show Low Public Library
    180 North 9th Street
    Show Low, AZ

    Thursday, March 6, 2008 4 p.m. to 7 p.m. &
    Saturday, March 8, 2008 9 a.m. to 1 p.m.
    Forest Supervisor's Office, Conference Room
    30 South Chiricauhua Drive
    Springerville, AZ

    Thursday, March 6, 2008 4 p.m. to 7 p.m. &
    Saturday, March 8, 200 9 a.m. to 1 p.m.
    Mogollon High School gym
    3450 Mustang Ave
    Heber, AZ

    Thursday, March 6, 2008 3 p.m. to 7 p.m. &
    Saturday, March 8, 2008 9 a.m. to 1 p.m.
    Alpine Community Center on Highway 180
    Alpine, AZ

    Thursday, March 6, 2008 3 p.m. to 7 p.m.
    Clifton Community Center, Clifton Train Depot
    100 North Coronado Blvd (U.S. Highway 191)
    Clifton, AZ

    Saturday, March 8, 200 9 a.m. to 1 p.m.
    Graham County General Services Building
    Assembly Room on the bottom floor
    921 Thatcher Blvd
    Safford, AZ

    For more information, contact James Copeland, Team Leader, at (928) 333-4301, or visit their webpage at www.fs.fed.us/r3/asnf/projects/travel-management.

    IF YOU RECREATE IN THE APACHE-SITGREAVES NATIONAL FOREST, YOUR CONTINUED INVOLEMENT IS NEEDED.

  2. #2
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    Re: Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Travel Plan Comment Period

    ***!! They are all at the same time! I really want to be involved in this process but I'll be out of town that entire time. This is crap, they have already severely limited the camping areas on the rim.
    It's like an LJ... only bigger.

  3. #3
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    Re: Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Travel Plan Comment Period

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiled1 View Post
    ***!! They are all at the same time! I really want to be involved in this process but I'll be out of town that entire time. This is crap, they have already severely limited the camping areas on the rim.
    Q & A
    http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/asnf/project...ment-qna.shtml

    From the Q & A
    Q: What changes will occur?

    A: The A-S is currently open to cross-country public motorized travel unless posted closed or when use creates resource damage. Upon implementing the rule, the Forests will designate a system of roads, trails, and areas for public motorized use—therefore prohibiting off-system motorized travel. This is essentially a 180° change in management strategy.
    Comment form:
    http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/asnf/project...-comment.shtml


    Filled out the comment form tonight - can't hurt anymore than we are about to get screwed. Let's not forget this come election time !
    RockKrawling is not a Crime !

  4. #4
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    Re: Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Travel Plan Comment Period

    RockKrawling is not a Crime !

  5. #5
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    Re: Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Travel Plan Comment Period

    Before I fill this out I want to get my thoughts in order, to be concise.

    I have not reaD INTO YOUR POSTS rICH BUT i APPRECIATE YOU(DAMN caps lock, sorry) doing the research and providing the link. ( I will REP you whne it lets me again)

    Are we to put that we do not want any closures...? I just want to be uniform, united in our voice. I will be out of town on the Devil's Highway during this time so I have to do it online as well...
    Being on a forum does not make you elite.

  6. #6
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    Re: Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Travel Plan Comment Period

    I submitted my comments.

    Last edited by RokNRich; 02-28-2008 at 11:00 AM.
    RockKrawling is not a Crime !

  7. #7
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    Re: Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Travel Plan Comment Period

    Right on, thanks Rich. I will look at it in the morning.
    Being on a forum does not make you elite.

  8. #8
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    Re: Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Travel Plan Comment Period

    Quote Originally Posted by RokNRich View Post
    Q & A
    http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/asnf/project...ment-qna.shtml

    From the Q & A


    Comment form:
    http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/asnf/project...-comment.shtml


    Filled out the comment form tonight - can't hurt anymore than we are about to get screwed. Let's not forget this come election time !
    We are NOT being screwed because NATIONAL Transportation Rule mandates "no cross country travel except within special areas". Cross country travel (wildcat trails) are building by the thousands of miles each year. WHEN does "responsible" use of our lands enter into our recreation? If we (OHV) do not show interest in what we legally have, both the federal land managers (BLM and FS) will close any and everything they can simply because it's easier for them to manage and it looks as though we don't care one way or another. NEW trails can be added to the route system but it must be done legally. It COSTS MONEY. Hopefully the OHV bill will pass this year which will give us dollars to help pay for the environmental assessments (NEPA) to enable the land managers to follow the legal steps to eliminate constant law suits by the environmentalists. Don't think the environmentalists are sitting on their back sides. They attend meetings, they WRITE LETTERS, and they join with the district rangers and managers. They know every trail out there........ plus some obviously, but they show they care. We need to do the same. If you cannot attend a meeting, WRITE or CALL or EMAIL.

    Election time has nothing to do with land managers MANAGING the land. The National bodies accept "public lands are for multi-use." This includes OHV but only in responsible use. Our own people are who are ruining it for all of us. Like it or not WE need to be in control of our own.

    THANKS for writing.............. hopefully we all keep our letters and comments on the polite AND FACTUAL side.
    Sandee

  9. #9
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    Re: Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Travel Plan Comment Period

    Quote Originally Posted by RokNRich View Post
    Big game hunters often need to stray off of established roads to retrieve game in a timely manner, as long as they aren't damaging the environment they should be allowed to use powered devices to accomplish the task.
    The problem with this practice is that then someone else sees tracks, and follows, and another, and they aren't as careful. Plus, the argument is that ANY off-road travel damages the environment, so we need to be careful about letting anyone use that as a parameter. It sucks not being able to get the truck in to a 1000-pound bull elk, but there are other solutions.

    Quote Originally Posted by RokNRich View Post
    Many OHV trails are not numbered nor inventoried, yet are still usable roads/trails, I disagree with the entire policy of "closed unless posted open".
    The ship has sailed on this argument. It is a NATION-wide rule, now, and the entire reason all the national forests are going through a road inventory. All we can do with these local meetings is rally for the specific roads we want to stay open.

    Quote Originally Posted by RokNRich View Post
    The growth of both the population and registered ATV users in the state require more ATV trails.
    What I observed at the Coconino meetings was that "recent" user-made roads were considered for road inventories, but these meetings were not about what to create for the future, but what to keep for the time being.

    Just because we have 10x the population doesn't mean we got 10x the land to go with it. They aren't making any more land--all we can do is look at new ways to manage what we have.

    The days are LONG gone when you could spend an entire weekend anywhere that you can get to with a Jeep without seeing another vehicle. I accept that if I really want to get away from other people, I have to backpack. I believe that it is important to have plenty of those areas left also. We have to actively represent our interest as Jeepers, but recognize that motorized users are not the ONLY users.

    Quote Originally Posted by RokNRich View Post
    Make it personal.
    Totally! This is the only way to effect the road inventories. Your comments must be specific, with route number and/or GPS coordinates, or even a hand-drawn map. Make specific comments: where and why: "I want FR 9576 to remain open as a designated route because it offers significant recreational value for ATV's and 4x4's, efficient dispersed camping opportunities, and great scenic quality" (Translation: there are some awesome rocks to crawl, great camping spots, the views don't suck.)

    Comments such as "I don't want any roads closed" will be tossed in the trash.

    Does anyone on here have specific Jeep trails that we want to see kept open? Step up so we can all get on board!

  10. #10
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    Re: Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Travel Plan Comment Period

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandee McCullen View Post

    THANKS for writing.............. hopefully we all keep our letters and comments on the polite AND FACTUAL side.

    My comment about being screwed was a general comment and not included in the reply I sent to the FS.
    RockKrawling is not a Crime !

  11. #11
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    Re: Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Travel Plan Comment Period

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandee McCullen View Post
    We are NOT being screwed because NATIONAL Transportation Rule mandates "no cross country travel except within special areas". Cross country travel (wildcat trails) are building by the thousands of miles each year. WHEN does "responsible" use of our lands enter into our recreation? If we (OHV) do not show interest in what we legally have, both the federal land managers (BLM and FS) will close any and everything they can simply because it's easier for them to manage and it looks as though we don't care one way or another. NEW trails can be added to the route system but it must be done legally. It COSTS MONEY. Hopefully the OHV bill will pass this year which will give us dollars to help pay for the environmental assessments (NEPA) to enable the land managers to follow the legal steps to eliminate constant law suits by the environmentalists. Don't think the environmentalists are sitting on their back sides. They attend meetings, they WRITE LETTERS, and they join with the district rangers and managers. They know every trail out there........ plus some obviously, but they show they care. We need to do the same. If you cannot attend a meeting, WRITE or CALL or EMAIL.

    Election time has nothing to do with land managers MANAGING the land. The National bodies accept "public lands are for multi-use." This includes OHV but only in responsible use. Our own people are who are ruining it for all of us. Like it or not WE need to be in control of our own.

    THANKS for writing.............. hopefully we all keep our letters and comments on the polite AND FACTUAL side.
    From my perspective as to where I live, here in Heber, all our problems are
    with the people coming up from the valley with their ATVs. On a giving weekend there must be thousands of them running the woods. They go wherever
    they want, as long as they can get between two trees, they will do it. I have talked to them and seems that they buy the dam things
    from the dealer without any discussion on what is appropriate trail use.

    I wonder if there are any ATV dealers on here? I also find that the people
    buy them and without any instruction, put their 9 or 10 year olds on them with a helmet and turn them loose on the woods.

    Up here, the ATV is supposed to be registered and insured before you can
    drive it on a FS road. Most I see aren't. This side comes down to law enforcement. The FS has as far as I know only about 10 or 15 LEO's in the
    entire state of Arizona! Can you imagine if there were only 15 DPS officers in the whole state to enforce the traffic laws? This is ridicules.
    Bill W. K7ANT 97 TJ with modified RK LA 106" WB. TeraLow, Locked, and 37" MTR's
    "May God Bless the Sheepdogs of America!"
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    Re: Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Travel Plan Comment Period

    Quote Originally Posted by Antman View Post
    From my perspective as to where I live, here in Heber, all our problems are with the people coming up from the valley with their ATVs.... They go wherever they want, as long as they can get between two trees, they will do it....
    they buy the dam things from the dealer without any discussion on what is appropriate trail use....
    I wonder if there are any ATV dealers on here? I also find that the people
    buy them and without any instruction, put their 9 or 10 year olds on them with a helmet and turn them loose on the woods...
    This is ridiculous.:sifone:
    It is like this by my cabin in Pinedale(Outside of Show Low.) And I KNOW there is no instruction because my best friend used to sell ATV/bikes at the largest dealer here in the valley off of Arizona Avenue in CHandler. He used to tell me stories how they would preach to the salespersons..."We don't care what they do with it!(inferring street or OHV) Sell them what their limit affords and gear to go with it and get them out the door." He quit because it was a bad environment.
    Being on a forum does not make you elite.

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    Re: Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Travel Plan Comment Period

    Unfortuneately, I have not had much time to explore the Apache Sitgreaves. Most of my favorite campsites are in Coconino and Tonto. But this does lead me to another question regarding backpacking, maybe Nena can help out on this one. If I drive up to the rim and park on a forest road, can I backpack in to any campsite I want? Or just the fact that I drove up limits me to the 300 ft (away from the road) rule? My wife and I are accumulating backpacking gear just so we can go to the previous camp sites we used to drive to.
    It's like an LJ... only bigger.

  14. #14

    Re: Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Travel Plan Comment Period

    Nice to see some really thoughtful comments on this forum about the forest OHV plan. I have spent a lot of time researching the Apache-Sitgreaves travel plan and I know for a fact that your ability to backpack and camp anywhere in the woods is safe and sound. The only change as far as camping is that you won't be able to drive anywhere in the woods you want to find a spot - you will have to walk a bit, but you can go as far as you want!

  15. #15
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    Re: Apache-Sitgreaves National Forest Travel Plan Comment Period

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiled1 View Post
    Unfortuneately, I have not had much time to explore the Apache Sitgreaves. Most of my favorite campsites are in Coconino and Tonto. But this does lead me to another question regarding backpacking, maybe Nena can help out on this one. If I drive up to the rim and park on a forest road, can I backpack in to any campsite I want? Or just the fact that I drove up limits me to the 300 ft (away from the road) rule? My wife and I are accumulating backpacking gear just so we can go to the previous camp sites we used to drive to.
    The only thing being closed is the motorized CROSS COUNTRY travel any time, any where. There may still be some areas open to "cross country" travel but those areas will be specifically designated within individual district planning. The one good thing is FS and BLM are trying to work together in rules so the public know what's what on PUBLIC LANDS.......... WE do have a voice and must use it. It's not easy, it cuts into our family and personal time and mostly we don't like "change" but remember the other side is the federal agencies are having a tough time relating to the public because they've "done their own thing" for many years. When things begin to fall behind closed doors, simply push them open and STAY INVOLVED.
    THANKS to all of you that are getting involved.
    Sandee

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