View Poll Results: Do you carry with a round chambered or not?

Voters
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  • One in the pipe.

    114 82.61%
  • Not

    24 17.39%
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Thread: Poll - One in the pipe or not?

  1. #61
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    Re: Poll - One in the pipe or not?

    Interesting post. To me carrying an unchambered auto for self defence would not be smart, but no matter what condition it is in you must train with it. Under stress trying to rack the slide and not induce a malfunction and ensuring 100% that the round chambered while someone is trying to kill you is iffy at best. My LEO SOP's require that a round be chambered but it is optional to top off magazine. I always do both. 2 things that you don't have enough of in a gunfight: time and ammo. Presenting an unchambered (ie unloaded-my opinion) gun in a gunfight will take time to load (chamber). The time frames involved in close range gunfights are in the seconds to fractions of a second. my Personal carry guns are always loaded to capacity and chambered (also chamber checked) so I know 100% when I pick that gun up it is ready to fire. Obviously training comes in big on this, and I would suggest that if a person is uncomfortable carrying a loaded and chambered weapon that he/she should seek training from a competant training school and practice. If anyone is interested I can demonstrate how fast you will get shot using non lethal airsoft training pistols in a mock gunfight. Just my .02 but come with a fair amount of experience.
    Long arm/37"/beedlocks/Mas grande arb Dana 44 rear/grande 44 front/ superjoints/WJ knuckle conversion/harness/cage/seats/winch/5.13/armor/skids/
    Parts/hydro/5-1/takes a beating that's for sure but still needs more crap

  2. #62
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    Tualatin OR
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    Re: Poll - One in the pipe or not?

    I have a DX40 it is hammerless I also have kids. Thats why I dont have one in the pipe. I can see both sides of this issue but I still like to be safe. It takes a lot for me to get rattled and I havent ever jamed one.
    "The Blind Guy Driving The CJ7"

  3. #63
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
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    119

    Re: Poll - One in the pipe or not?

    reading this thread blows my mind! only in the USA..lol Here in Australia you cant carry anything, even if you have a licence to own one, you must be a member of a club and shoot in comps so many times a year.It has to be transported in a approved gun safe, and so on and so on!!!!! you cant take it out wheeling. its just too hard here! I dont know one person with a hand gun. copes cant even have one off duty.
    www.ausjeepoffroad.com
    tj 4.0 5.5 RELA, fox shocks,44 front 9" rear arb's, 5.14, etc etc

  4. #64
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    Re: Poll - One in the pipe or not?

    There are people here in the USA that would like the same thing
    Long arm/37"/beedlocks/Mas grande arb Dana 44 rear/grande 44 front/ superjoints/WJ knuckle conversion/harness/cage/seats/winch/5.13/armor/skids/
    Parts/hydro/5-1/takes a beating that's for sure but still needs more crap

  5. #65
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    Re: Poll - One in the pipe or not?

    Mostly in Kalifornia, Maryland and Massachussetts.
    Long arm/37"/beedlocks/Mas grande arb Dana 44 rear/grande 44 front/ superjoints/WJ knuckle conversion/harness/cage/seats/winch/5.13/armor/skids/
    Parts/hydro/5-1/takes a beating that's for sure but still needs more crap

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    PHX, AZ
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    298

    Re: Poll - One in the pipe or not?

    YES! Most encounters happen at close range. A motivated person can cover 21 ft (a room) in 2.0 seconds. Most CCW can clear leather and shoot in 2.0-2.5 seconds. That means the goblin WILL BE ON YOU if/when you manage to get firearm clear of holster. That = you DEAD. If it's necessary to rack a slide (.5-1.5 sec) then that time PLUS the draw time means I'll send flowers to your next of kin. If your firearm is unsafe with one in the chamber, GET ANOTHER ONE.

    Tom
    Tom LaFrance - ASE Undercar Specialist, Currently Jeepless

  7. #67
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    Jan 2005
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    Re: Poll - One in the pipe or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by AZJeepdad View Post
    YES! Most encounters happen at close range. A motivated person can cover 21 ft (a room) in 2.0 seconds. Most CCW can clear leather and shoot in 2.0-2.5 seconds. That means the goblin WILL BE ON YOU if/when you manage to get firearm clear of holster. That = you DEAD. If it's necessary to rack a slide (.5-1.5 sec) then that time PLUS the draw time means I'll send flowers to your next of kin. If your firearm is unsafe with one in the chamber, GET ANOTHER ONE.

    Tom
    Tom I just cannot buy the conclusion. I agree with the premise and have no arguement.

    Elsewhere and quite early on in this thread I addressed this. I will cover it again.

    As I have read thru and along with this thread and digested the arguements presented and only draw the conclusion that to carry one in the pipe is the domain of the lazy, unskilled and the blind stumbling along thru life with a CCW. If anyone on here takes offense, I am sorry and it is not directed at anyone on this thread.

    My life has been one in which guns have always been present. My Dad was a 2nd Amendment advocate, 30 year career military man and LEO. I too have been a LEO and a career military as a war fighter, Infantry soldier and have 16 months in combat. Not like I do not have an idea of how and what goes down.

    Since us Infantry guys run around with guns day and night and I can assure you sleep with them we are more than familiar with our weapons, how they function and most of all the tragedy when a weapon goes off unintended and wounds or kills someone. And trust me it happens. It is also known as LEO's dirty little secret. They shoot themselves and each other at an ALARMING rate.

    Albeit stories of how a guy can cover the length of a room in less than 2 sec and if you don't have one in the pipe you are dead meat is at best a possible future threat and at its worst a cheap dime store novel or grade 'B' movie.

    Here the order of the day is and you Boy Scouts know it well, 'Be Prepared'. Yes, be prepared in my equipment, my physical being and my mental preparedness.

    What is boils down to is 'time and place for everything' or as Orson Wells said, "no wine before its time". Be it combat in the cities as is the case in much of Iraq or the deltas and jungles of a Vietnam. Prior to doing a hot insert on some distant LZ its lock and load time. Prior to doing a sweep thru a city its lock and load time...YOU THINK?????

    All that said, I don't carry one in the pipe and I have yet to hear any argument in this thread that even remotely passes the smell test to do so.

    What I do hear is a staggering lack of mental preparation, anticipation of the possible threat and the trust of your instincts and self awareness of the environment you are in or about to go in.

    So while you shot the perp as he was racing across the room in mid stride, I nailed him as he sprung because I saw it coming when I got out of the car...


    Please do not anyone take this as some personal shoot across their bow. This is how I see it, based upon my training and practice in real world situations. Your gas mileage may be different.
    Don

    17 Oaks Ranch, Boerne, Texas

    www.savagesun4x4.com

  8. #68
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    Dec 2003
    Location
    Cloud Break, Arizona
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    Re: Poll - One in the pipe or not?

    For home defense only ... it is a double action
    revolver with 5 rounds of .410 #4 .......

    Best regards,
    Mike
    KE7GRM

  9. #69
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    Re: Poll - One in the pipe or not?

    Don....

    Sounds like you would like to volunteer for a few exercises in Airsoft Force on Force...we can simulate the Tueller 21 ft rule, and unchambered theory vs chambered....
    Brad B. 2014 FLAME RED JKU SPORT
    KE7SAJ To those who have served THANK YOU.

  10. #70
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    Re: Poll - One in the pipe or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by SavageSun4x4 View Post
    because I saw it coming when I got out of the car...
    Don, Can you honestly say you will ALWAYS see it coming? That is the problem.

  11. #71
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    Jan 2004
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    Tempe, AZ
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    Re: Poll - One in the pipe or not?

    In regards to the 21 Foot Rule, I have first hand observations.

    First, I do belive earlier in this thread that I wrote that I keep my weapon empty (most of the time) due to children in the house and the fact that I hardly carry it. Well, that was then and now is different. A few months ago I went through the the Firearms Acd for with the Sheriffs Office in regards to my Posse training. For what it is worth, it is the exact same hand gun training any other Police Officer gets in AZ and in fact, we have to pass the same qualification shoot, day and night. Since I carry on duty an average of 4-6 times a month, my weapon is now always loaded.

    POST, (Police Officer Standardized Training) used to use the 21 foot rule as a good justification but they have dropped that in the last few years. Why? 21 feet was too close.

    We did a very eye opening excersise on the range. We all got partners and lined up the 7 yard line. One was the shooter, the other, the bad guy. Drill was as follows.

    Shooter lines up in the neutral postion faceing down range, at a standard "human" target.. (i.e., chillin') while the bad guy puts his on the shooter's shoulder. When his hand lifts off the shooter, the shooter is to draw on target and fire 2 rounds, center mass. When the bad guy lifts his hand that is his cue to run as fast he can up range. Instructors were there to mark the exact spot you were the runner was when the shot got off.

    Mind you, pulling from a holster we had spent the last 2 weekends shooting out of for 11 hours day. With the exception of a few bad guys who were in thier 60's or folks with bad knees or if you were unlucky enough to get paired up with a quick shot almost every one cleared 21 feet. Most well beyond.

    Yes, it was 2 shots, but you have to expect 2 rounds to stop someone coming at you. Its more realistic than expecting to shoot and stop someone with one round.

    Is this post ment to persuade some to chamber instead of carrying empty? No, not at all. I kept my weapon and carried it most of the time empty due to the balance of a Glock and young boy in the house. I cant fault anyone for that logic.

    On the other hand, if you are under the impression you are going to dig your weapon out from a holster, let a along a concealed one, chamber, aim and fire a well aimed round at someone with at 21 feet... your mostly likely going to lose.
    "Evil will flourish when good men do nothing."


  12. #72
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    Re: Poll - One in the pipe or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by RandyT View Post
    Don, Can you honestly say you will ALWAYS see it coming? That is the problem.
    No not at all therefore you have to err on the side of positive rather than negative. Meaning chamber rather than not.

    For years I carried a Ruger single action .22 and I carried it cowboy style, on my hip. It being a single action you had to **** the hammer to fire, which automatically rolled the cylinder over lining up the loaded chamber.

    Those years on the ranch taught me a lot. I spent a lot of time out alone stringing and repairing barbed wire fence, stacking hay for the livestock, clearing brush and clearing around the lake we had, so the livestock would not get bit in the head from snakes.

    Gawd did we have snakes. Snakes were everywhere in E Texas and they were all deadly. Other than the rattlers most did not give any warning except the 'hiss'. Most of the time the snake has its sensors on your legs from the knee down, so best not move when you hear the rattle or hiss. Freeze, draw and shoot in a game where only head shots count, was I good?....never got bit, my horse never got bit either.

    Takes 2 things to win in this battle, 1) you better be fast, the snake is and it has got the drop on you 2) as I said only head shots count, shoot the snake anywhere else and all you have is one hellva mad snake...you lose.

    When I worked for the Sheriffs Dept, I worked undercover and rarely carried a gun. But often I was detailed for other duties and I carried open and yes I had one in the pipe.

    In the military you don't carry one in the pipe. Anyone ever spent any time going cross country (off road) in a M113 personnel carrier or Hummer? Then I don't have to explain. Ever see a 21 ton vehicle get air as its blasting across the tundra? Think its a RUFF ride for the guys inside?

    Situational awareness, understanding and knowing the threat, anticipating the engagement.

    If you are not sure about your area then (assuming your local police are on the ball) contact your police and ask for police saturation or density overlay of the city. What this tells you is how many police per sq mile in the city. It is easier to get this from the police than other gov't agencies since all they will give you are crime stats as its NOT PC to let you know where the crime really is.

    sidebar: for those of you who might have some access to in depth info, get the police density/saturation overlay and then IF YOU CAN get you hands on the AIDS overlay of the US. Be prepared for a SHOCK.

    One of my best friends was the Surgeon General and he had the national AIDS overlay which is confirmed cases per population density geographically.

    I would say more here but lets not have this thread interrupted by ____________ and ____________ our resident male and female activists.
    Don

    17 Oaks Ranch, Boerne, Texas

    www.savagesun4x4.com

  13. #73

    Re: Poll - One in the pipe or not?

    My wife and I just got back from a two week trip to Atlanta via New Mexico, Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Florida and South Carolina. I carried the whole trip even though I didn't know the carry laws of those particular states. I think it's OK in Texas and Florida but not sure about the other states. I did feel a little awkward much of the time because you never know if some rural trooper is going to pull you over for a meet and greet. I did get stopped just outside of El Paso. The speed limit is 70 and I was going 77 but then the speed limit jumps to 80 so I kicked it up to 87 and bingo, a state trooper was on me in less than a mile. Everything was cool until he invited me back to the cruiser. I didn't panic but I figured I'd better dump the heater before I get in his car. Fortunately, he headed back to the cruiser before I got out of the car so I had time to un-holster (I carry inside the waistband) and stuff the gun under the wife's seat. (She's legal also). I walked back and got in the troopers car. I noticed that he's old, like me. He says "If I give you a warning will you slow down?" I say, "Yes sir, I will." Next thing I know we do the secret old guy hand shake and I'm outta there! He was a real good guy and I appreciate what he did. I did not speed the rest of the entire trip. Can't say so much for my wife when it was her turn to drive.

  14. #74
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    Re: Poll - One in the pipe or not?

    Still trying to figure out whether to have one in the pipe or not?
    Long arm/37"/beedlocks/Mas grande arb Dana 44 rear/grande 44 front/ superjoints/WJ knuckle conversion/harness/cage/seats/winch/5.13/armor/skids/
    Parts/hydro/5-1/takes a beating that's for sure but still needs more crap

  15. #75
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    Re: Poll - One in the pipe or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeepdude775 View Post
    Still trying to figure out whether to have one in the pipe or not?
    OMG... LOL

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