Rejoice in destruction??? AAARGH!!! [Archive]

OlneyJeeps

10-09-2005, 03:03 PM

Ok, I might be making ASSumptions / going too far, but I saw something that made my blood boil (kinda like an overfilled pot of hot oil when you drop a frozen turky in).

The story:

For the 2nd time since being back from AK went to a church (Desertsprings Bible Church) that my wife started going to while was away. Out front of the youth ministry was a Jeep XJ (will get pics): late 80's/early 90's, NO body damage, good glass, decent interior. Although reported as running "rough", was driven to it's location. 225's on Outlaw II alum rims. Was donated to youth ministry. Because it was donated, the head of the youth ministry maintains it has NO value (even though several people have offered to pay cash on the spot for it).

In an effort to "reach" the youth of the community, they are going to allow whoever wants to to "beat the Jeep" with a sledge hammer or other impliment. WTF?!!!!!! IMHO this is teaching our youth that even though something has value to others (I pointed out that the sale could by loads of desperatly needed supplies for an upcoming ministry to Mexico or to several others who desperatly need help), because it has no value to them (the youths), it should be destroyed (for the "fun" of it).

It dosen't matter that it is a Jeep .... IMHO if something has value to someone else NO ONE should EVER take joy in destroying ANYTHING that someone else might value. PERIOD.

Am I over-reacting?

If you want to make a difference, email your opinion (as I encourage discussion, either pro or anti) to the pastor: ricke@desertsprings.com.

I discussed the matter with him and he said he would "look into it"

I discussed it with the "leader" of the youth ministry and he was atimate in his opinion/valuation that because it was donated (and that it was not nice and shiny / needed work), it was "worth nothing" and that if he reached one child (with WHAT message?), it was worth it. It didnt seem to matter that COUNTLESS lives could be reached/improved with funds that could be generated by the sale or , even better yet, the youths might be tought how their time could be used productivly by fixing it up before selling it.

AARGH!

Like I said, please do something: email your opinion / and or what you would be willing to do/donate it this thing is fixed up (instead of destroyed for "fun"):

ricke@desertsprings.com

steping down from the pulpit
SteveOinAZ

jeepin_in_az

10-09-2005, 03:06 PM

I honestly don't believe a minister would do that. That would be a church I would NEVER attend if they taught this to their youth.

E-mail will be sent.

OlneyJeeps

10-09-2005, 03:11 PM

PS: Jeep can be seen at Desetsprings Bible Church: Tatum / Paradise Lane (between Greenway and Bell)

OlneyJeeps

10-09-2005, 03:21 PM

Not positive, but I believe the youth dept person I spoke with is:

bradley.reith@desertsprings.com

SHNIPE

10-09-2005, 04:04 PM

Sounds like an XJ rescue mission is in order :D if they can rejoice in destruction i can rejoice in being the jeeps savior through theft :D

ok maybe not but i do think its retarded. Even if not using the money gained through the sale of the vehicle to help the church, why not donate it to a charity taht could use it in a beneficial way. Such a waste...

k7mto

10-09-2005, 04:28 PM

If you take something that the owner already admitted is "worth nothing", is it still stealing? Even petty theft implies taking something of value ;)

If the want to "beat the Devil" out of something, we should approach them with another vehicle to trade for the XJ. If all they're going to do is demolish it, it shouldn't matter to them what it is. If they do trade, we should make the XJ a VJC 'project rig' and fix it up, auction it off and donate the funds to AZOHVC :D

paparonbo

10-09-2005, 04:49 PM

I took a run up to look at the Jeep. Its a '91 2dr 4.0, AW4 with a NP231 transfer case. The body is in great shape, the interior is nicer than my XJ. No tears, good headliner, no rust, one small dent behind the pass door. Paint was in good condition before it was "tagged".

It would definately be a great project Jeep. I can't believe that they are doing this. I will be sending an email this evening.

Here are some photos of it:
http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2537&d=1128898151
http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2541&stc=1&d=1128903823
http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2535&d=1128898109

jeepin_in_az

10-09-2005, 05:57 PM

What religion is this?

cypherjoe

10-09-2005, 06:01 PM

They could at least let Devil Man take his Jeep down there and flop it while driving over it. Devil Man could play devils advocate!

But no i think its pretty stupid to bash up a jeep for no reason. You no how many people in this town have a vehicle that does even run? i have a friend who would love to have something that runs rough. Cause right now hes bussin it.

Email sent

paparonbo

10-09-2005, 06:10 PM

What religion is this?
Its called Desert Springs Bible Church. I'm not sure which larger group the ordination is through. I know several people who attend there and its a good church, I just don't agree with what they are planning to do with the Jeep. Of course, at my church we know how to treat a Jeep:D :D
http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1740&d=1121038016
Thats one of mine. It was used as a prop for a youth activity

Ron
00 XJ
87 XJ

aklars1

10-09-2005, 06:13 PM

Thats just stupid an ignorant IMO.
email sent.

Stu Olson

10-09-2005, 07:31 PM

Just finished an e-mail. I agree that this is one of the more stupid things I have heard of in quite some time. I could care less that it is a Jeep.

rvisokey

10-09-2005, 07:37 PM

So from their point of view....

I would like to suggest to them a 'fire safety night'. They could have all the kids learn about fire safety by having a huge bonfire in the parking lot and burning common things from around the house. They should start with a bible. I'll donate it for the cause. I'm also sure their parents would love to pitch in. The family bible can be use as kindling! It's just "DONATED" stuff and not "VALUED" as anything so the kids should have a great time. Let's face it, fire safety is a serious issue.

Once they torch a few bibles and and learn how dangerous paper can be when it burns , because thats what the WHOLE BONFIRE IS ABOUT, we can move on to other stuff. I'm sure we can get some others to pitch in for a few crosses or statues of Mary. Wow! Burning crosses...er... I mean burning wood is the best way to teach about fire safety in my opinion.

Wow! I can just see the learning that would go on that day.

Wind_Danzer

10-09-2005, 07:46 PM

E-mail sent to both addresses. What a freaking joke. I'm 1/2 tempted to write the news organizations about this one.

jeepin_in_az

10-09-2005, 08:13 PM

E-mail sent to both addresses. What a freaking joke. I'm 1/2 tempted to write the news organizations about this one.

Already done.

FrenchChili

10-09-2005, 08:15 PM

I think the news should know about this...what kind of education (if any) is this??? Did Jesus ever beat down a cart with a walking stick???

I think this church needs revising...

Wind_Danzer

10-09-2005, 08:27 PM

I also just e-mailed azcentral, news 5, news 3, and one other place.

aklars1

10-09-2005, 10:20 PM

We all should go down there and beat the youth pastor instead :D then wheel the jeep, or wheel over it :rolleyes:

Bama

10-09-2005, 11:21 PM

"We all should go down there and beat the youth pastor instead then wheel the jeep, or wheel over it" -azlars1

We should wheel over the youth pastor:D

jeepin_in_az

10-10-2005, 07:46 AM

Guys, lets keep this a little clean. If the news has been notified, they could view the post if the link was provided.

Stu Olson

10-10-2005, 09:22 AM

I very much agree Mike. ;)

mingoglia

10-10-2005, 10:32 AM

Back when I was in highschool some moons ago they would sometimes haved a similiar ritual before football games. I never really understood it nor participated in it.

Mike

fatbob309

10-10-2005, 10:52 AM

I go to a church that has people in need all the time... It must be nice to have a church that well off...

k7mto

10-10-2005, 11:09 AM

Back when I was in highschool some moons ago they would sometimes haved a similiar ritual before football games. I never really understood it nor participated in it.

Mike

We did too, but it was always some junk heap from auto shop that was destined for the scrap yard anyway. I also never participated but only because the 'school spririt' I participated in usually took place in the woods ;)

mingoglia

10-10-2005, 11:52 AM

Yep, same here, it was always some '70 Cutlas that was dragged in there because it hadn't had a drivetrain or anything of value for years. Usually the vehicles already look like they were pulled from a monster truck event. I think ruining a perfectly restorable XJ is like spilling beer or leaving half a keg of excess beer from a party outside overnight without keeping it chilled. (this second party foul happened to a friend of mine 2 weekends ago).

We did too, but it was always some junk heap from auto shop that was destined for the scrap yard anyway. I also never participated but only because the 'school spririt' I participated in usually took place in the woods ;)

OlneyJeeps

10-10-2005, 12:59 PM

Over 300 views, 20 some replies. My hope is we flood the church's mail
box(es)
Pastor : ricke@desertsprings.com ,
youth orginizer: bradley.reith@desertsprings.com
with valid/articulate assesments of what they are doing.

I have made a cash offer (knowing it is worth more but having limited liquid assets which I must conserve for my own 3 daughters) of $650. When sold (then again it is 3 years newer and has lower milage than my "junky" XJ) I would donate larger portion of "profit" (although probably to an orgination who would make more fruitfull use of donations).

$650 is not much, but maybe we could post/show the ignorant few at the bashing a breakdown of what they are destroying for "fun":
at $4 ea from Fry's (on sale) over 160 chickens (for the hungry)
or
over 200lbs of potatoes
or
over 1000 heads of lettuce
or (shopping at Goodwill on sale):
over 500 long sleeve shirts
or
over 20 (minimum pentium II w/moniter,keyboard,mouse) computers
or
130 child safty seats

What do you think they could buy if they actually spent some time restoring then selling (oh God, how dare I infer that they donate some HARD WORK) the Jeep ( not that I have owned/sold 30 or so Jeeps:D my "educated" guess would value at approx $2000 or so )?

Dare I challenge the church to provide the needy with generic food or gently used clothing/necessities and or teach youths to maximize productivity of limited assets (the youth minister became incenced when I inferred that the kids might be "spoiled"), your ideas (email to pastor please) on what $650 (anyone want to offer more?) could buy?

Bottom line (my humble opinion): dosent matter if it is a Jeep or Suzuki... to destroy something which may have value to someone else is equal to taking food from the mouth of the hungry. Teaching our youth that such destruction (in my mind, value: 1 or 1million, value does not matter ) is unimagineably WRONG and therefore a SIN. WRONG is WRONG (just like watching/allowing/TEACHING someone to do wrong is wrong) and there is NO justification.

I'm not volunteering anyone (nor do I do things JUST for the PR... eventhough it is a wonderful bonus) but how many / who would volunteer to help (ie repair/upgrade with our spare "junk" then sell) show what the RIGHT thing to do is?

SteveOinAZ

PS while taking my girls to preschool this morning, I saw that (even though it still has bashing "announcements" in windows) the Jeep is no longer prominently displayed in courtyard; it is parked in parking lot (Tatum side).

Joe West

10-10-2005, 03:19 PM

How utterly sad that a church would think it proper to destroy something that someone else could find useful OR that they could get money for.

I wrote both email addresses offering to purchase this Jeep.

Joe

OlneyJeeps

10-11-2005, 01:52 PM

Just sent to Pastor ( anyone up for a "XJ rescue" or at least a showing of their intelligence.... WED 7PM Tatum / Paradise Lane (south of Bell) ?):

Mr. Efird,

By your lack of response to my ( and others ) inquiries to the scheduled destruction of a valuable vehicle, I must assume that the event is still scheduled.

In contemplating the content of this letter I considered using quotes of the Bible to justify my point. Because (as history shows) quotes from the bible can be taken to justify virtually anything I choose to use simple logic supported by empirical fact.

Mr. Reith justified the destruction of the vehicle using two premises:
1) the vehicle has no value
this premise was supported by his assertions that the vehicle was donated and was in "terrible" condition
2) the activity could draw youths to the church

My responses:
1) Although Mr. Reith refused to admit the vehicle has no monetary value, as demonstrated by my (and others) offers to purchase the vehicle clearly establishes unquestionable value. I (and others) view the destruction of anything which may have value to others as a blatant display of wasteful arrogant opulence. Just because something has no value to you, it is a valid argument that the destruction of things of value is equal to denying the needy and hungry of food or supplies with value equal to that which is being destroyed. A simple comparison: destruction of vehicle is equal to denying the hungry of over 1000 loaves of bread (equivalent value to minimum established value of $750 offered for vehicle)

2) Although I do not question that the activity may bring youths to the church, I strongly question this premise on the grounds that (as stated by Mr. Reith) something which brings people to the church is therefore justified. Watching the youths (as well as Mr. Reith's )joy in anticipation of "beating the Jeep", there is no question that it may bring a child or two to the church (for one night). The error in reasoning is simple to see: does the fact that they would enjoy it make it right? Consulting Theories of Sound Reasoning this does not have the basis for a valid argument. The equivalent argument would be that because free prostitutes would bring youths to the church, it is should be encouraged. As established in (1), you would be teaching that one nights "fun" is justification to starve the poor.

In a conversation with me, Mr Reith stated that he would gladly spend $500 to bring a child to the church. To me, this statement clearly shows Mr. Reith's opulent disregard for that which has value to others, This disregard was further shown when I suggested that he bring the television ( which had just been donated to him, and by his own logic therefore had no value) to be bashed. He would not deny that the kids would probably enjoy smashing it. His refusal was clear evidence that he feels it is OK to destroy items of value as long as they have no value to him. Is that what we want taught to our children?

That an event of this nature would be condoned by this church disgusts me. It is all to clear to me that Mr. Reith is using this event to become popular with the youths he is supposed to be teaching good values. Did your sermon not emphasize the importance of doing what if right (not that which is easy)?

As a curious side point, Saturday night my 7 yr old daughter asked me what passionate is. I explained that it is descriptive of acting with absolute and resound enthusiasm. After watching me discuss the matter with Mr Reith, she later asked if that was what passionate was. I said it was a good example. I went on to say that I was passionate about my love for her mother, her, and her sisters. She said "I know." Message sent, message received. The question I have problems answering "why to they want to ruin the nice car?" Children watch and learn from our actions.

Incidental, my daily driver is a 1989 Jeep Cherokee (the one you are beating is a 1991 ) which suffers the results of most of its years on salt covered roads in Michigan. My girls love it. Do you want to tell them they ride to school each day in a worthless piece of junk? Do you want to tell the children and parents that my wife ( bilingual teacher ) spends her spare time teaching English that you feel it is more important for the youths of your church to have some fun than to provide them some learning materials.

Respectfully,
Stephen Olney

PS Since Mr. Reith is wanting to bring people to the church, wouldn't it be fun if I (and the club I am in ) brought several needy families with their kids to show them this church's wise stewardship of contributions ( IE. the supplies which could have been bought )? Will you be sending an IOU to Mexico for the sleeping bags that could have been purchased? Parish the thought that some media might show up as well.

pas-sion-ate: adj. 1. Capable of or having intense feelings; excitable. 2. Wrathful by temperament; choleric 3. Amorous; lu****l. 4. Showing or expressing strong emotion; ardent: a passionate speech against injustice. 5 Arising from or marked by passion: a passionate rage.

Do you need help ( I think my kids could help ) with these? :
right: adj.
(daughter's answer: "helping other people?")
and
wrong: adj.
(daughter's answer: "ruining something good just for fun?")

My daughters are only 4 and 7 years old... should I tell them their answers are wrong?

Message sent...
Message received?

fatbob309

10-11-2005, 02:11 PM

Nice... Its just so wrong.

Brian Blum

10-11-2005, 02:13 PM

Stu Olson

10-11-2005, 02:32 PM

Stephen....thanks for sharing. ;) Here is what I sent to the Pastor of the church.....

Pastor,

I feel compelled to write this e-mail after hearing about the planned “activity” that will be occurring at your church later on this week.

Can I ask a question? What does one hope to gain by having our youth sledge hammer an automobile into small pieces?

I just turned 50 last month. I have raised 4 children, the last one at home being almost 18 and still in high school. I have always attempted to instill good values in my kids but I can not for the life of me determine what positive value this action will result in.

Perhaps it would make more sense if you were to bring the youth together and actually teach them something about the vehicle….how to change a tire, how to change the oil, maybe even the proper way to wash and wax a vehicle. How about fixing it up and then selling it….the proceeds being used for something to help the community, here or abroad.

I live in a not so great part of town….19 years ago, when I moved here, it was quite upscale, but times being what they are, the gangs now drive through the area, spray paint block fences and trash cans, shooting at each other, etc. I’ve had a rear window smashed out of my van at night. It was just sitting there, not hurting anyone….and someone decided the window was no longer necessary. It has been egged repeatedly….yet another thing I do not completely understand.

So my point….those very things that I see happening to my own personal property…..you are now going to encourage at your church?

Sir….please tell me this is a joke. If it is not, then you need to simply ask yourself….”What would Jesus do?” I did….smashing up the vehicle is not the answer I got.

Scrat

10-11-2005, 03:06 PM

I'm crying inside. See this is why I don't like oorganized religions. lol!

Cheers,
Lee

jeepsonly

10-11-2005, 03:54 PM

I'm crying inside. See this is why I don't like oorganized religions. lol!

Cheers,
Lee

Wow, doesn't take much to turn people against "religion" huh? A few people do something somebody doesn't like and suddenly it's the fault of religion. Better whipping post than politics, huh?

If this was...say...a fundraiser for a local school, the Red Cross, Katrina relief, School for the Blind, etc., would any of those organizations be rediculed as much as this church? If not, why not?

For what it's worth I think destroying the Jeep thing is a bad idea. If they were going to do it, it would have been better to have selected a junkyard vehicle.

My1stJeep

10-11-2005, 03:54 PM

Ok, first does anyone have the time of when this is going to occure? Maybe a peaceful demonstration across the street would be in order?

Here is my letter:
To whom it may concern,

I am not sure if this is real or a hoax. You are planning on destroying a Jeep Cherokee in the name of getting some youth to come to church for a night? They will be coming to you, paying you money to take out aggressions, thus teaching them the lesson to beat someone else's property to let out your anger? Please tell me someone has made a mistake and this is a joke.

Youth believe that if they did not pay for it, then it has no value. So you are now saying with the Jeep it has no value, so smash it. Well they did not pay for any of the vehicles I own, so they have no value to the youth so is it ok for them to smash my vehicles? How about spray painting things on the side of it?

Do you really think this is the type of lesson that Jesus would want? Do you have any versus, anywhere in the Bible that say anything about Jesus using any means, even violence to get people to attend church? And what use is it if you get them their for one night and they never come back? Jesus was a King, but more important a Servant and wants us to teach Servant hood, thus why Jesus being a king washed the disciples feet, why he performed miracles, fed the poor and made the blind see. All things done positively to make people believe and attend.

A violent act such as this serves no purpose, unless you plan to continue having violent acts night to keep them coming back, either case I don't remember any of the ten commandments saying to perform violent acts? Are there a different set you are following?

Maybe a better use would be to sell it, get the actual "Value" of it, then give the teens the money for attending church. Instead of a violent act you will reach them in a positive way, make it a youth outing and they can all go to a movie, or other appropriate youth event. How about taking the money, purchase something to give to one of the food organizations, Katrina Victims, or??? and have the youth deliver it, and any extra have a movie night at the church and supply the popcorn, nice reward for taking the time to deliver some good to those in need? (Some events you can do and then do the reward: How about a purchase of Bible to give to the homeless, how about toys for the children in abuse centers, or spending time with children in the burn hospital, or serving food at one of the food kitchens, or????)

I hope you will reconsider the event and ask What Would Jesus Do, and find a more positive activity for the event.

OlneyJeeps

10-11-2005, 05:05 PM

Who gives a **** what someone else does with their money? If you don't like how the church is using its donations, then don't donate! The idea that anytime someone wastes money they should be chastised for starving the poor is ridiculous. Everyone on this board drives a gas guzzling Jeep when they could probably take the bus or ride a bike or buy a Honda. Just think of all the wasted gas money that could be used to buy $4 chickens from Fry's! YOU ALL ARE KILLING POOR PEOPLE! Get real folks.

I'm sorry, but I think you missed the point: the activity is teaching children to take joy in destroying something that has no value to them. If a church or any other orginization starts teaching what I consider evil I will proudly take a stand and try to stop it. Look at the pictures.... thats some pretty good grafitti .... do you want your car next? They plan to take baseball bats and sledge hammers to it ... when was the last time you had a window blown our or your car vandalized? I will not even go into physical assult on others.

The value examples I made were to make a point and make them think. All to often, we ( myself included ) make decisions without thinking them out. I would like to think this was an innocent error in judgement. I made an offer to trade another vehicle (poorer condition) for the Jeep. Because it would not cancel the primary objection (teaching the use of physical violence), I have recended the offer.

As far as being a reason to stay away from organized religion, I passionatly say NO! If you look at my "arguments", you should say that I consistantly said "this" church. If something is broken, do your best to repair it. If, after dilligently attempting to fix it, you are unable, find something/somewhere else (ironic parralell: church is broken (IMHO), should I take pleasure in destroying it?).

OlneyJeeps

10-11-2005, 05:17 PM

By the way, "celebration" by the Sr. High Fight Club (that sounds really Christian, dosen't it?) is scheduled for
7PM Wednesday Oct 12
16215 N Tatum (half way between Greenway and Bell, 1mi east of SR51)

Brian Blum

10-11-2005, 05:18 PM

Ron Ashby

10-11-2005, 05:33 PM

Griswold

10-11-2005, 05:47 PM

These kids aren't stupid. They know that the Jeep belongs to the Church and that the Church has given them permission to smash the 4x4 to smithereens. It's quite a stretch to suggest that this will teach kids that it's ok to destroy someone else's property.
I think the piont here is that some people believe that the church should be guided by biblical principle, and it is not. Churches have become a for profit industry or there would not be a 3 million dollar church on every corner. "give the people what they want, absolve them of thier sins, and they will fill the offering plate". This disgusts many people and is what is happening at this particular church. My take is that it has little to do with what is being destroyed, and much to do with how much heavier the offering plate will be if they can get people into the church on a gimmick.

Tom Jacobson

10-11-2005, 05:52 PM

Dear Mr. Ashby,

I think you've watched one too many "Beavis and Butthead" re-runs.

Sincerely,
Tom Jacobson

desertdawg

10-11-2005, 05:53 PM

Hey does that Jeep have a Dana 35 in it? If it does, Special K wants to wack it (The Dana 35) with the sledge hammer.:D:eek:

Griswold

10-11-2005, 05:54 PM

Bama

10-11-2005, 06:01 PM

If you do not agree with "this" church, then do not partake in any of there activities. In some peoples opinions, this action might be teaching kids to destroy property of no value to them, but it all depends on how the youths are raised by their parents/parental gaurdians. If they were raised properly, they will know the difference from right and wrong. They might destroy the jeep, but the ones having a right mind will know that it was only done so having the churches consent. Im sure you, Olneyjeeps, have taught your daughters right, with honesty, and to be considerate, with regard to others property. So why be worried? Your family will not be hurt by these actions. Yes, not all parents teach their offspring the important virtues by which all people should live by, but you cant save them all.
I personaly, see no reason why they should destroy this jeep, having a religious message or not, but it doesnt surprise me when most of the Christian churches i have came across run a hypocritical establishment anyways. I am in no way defending "this" church, I am simply stating that this action is doing no harm to anyone, so let them perform this moronic act so you can sit back and laugh at their ignorance to the fact that it could be sold to help a cause or to be of some other "better" use. I hope no one was offended:D

Ron Ashby

10-11-2005, 06:39 PM

To clear up a couple of misconceptions, we are not going to, and never have planned to charge for the opportunity to Beat the Jeep.

Also, my total time watching "Beaves and Butthead" is probably less than one minute.

For those of you who are in doubt, come by and be peaceable and listen to the message. It could change your life.

Sincerely,
Ron Ashby

Griswold

10-11-2005, 06:44 PM

cypherjoe

10-11-2005, 06:53 PM

At any time will there be an offering taken or a solicitation for money of any kind?

Ok im putting on my flame suit here but, dont you think this is grabbing at straws a bit?:confused:
Its a church, of course they will have an offering. Or at least a plate for people to put their tithes in. :)

Flame Suit On!!

*strikes match* (runs for cover):D

desertdawg

10-11-2005, 06:59 PM

I guess my joke about the Dana 35 didn't go over to well!:D

I just wish there had been this much energy and outrage when I posted my Powerline/Hackberry Creek closure thread. Geez! just think of what we could accomplish if we directed our energy toward important issues like land use and trail closures.

I think this pastor is using his creativity to attract the youth to hear his message, and more power to him! It's tough enough these days just to get kids off of their video games to do something productive. For heaven's sake, let it go people! Let's divert this energy to more important issues!

There Iv'e said my piece. By the way I skip the middle man and go direct!:D

Happy Wheeling!:)

OlneyJeeps

10-11-2005, 07:12 PM

It is interesting how creative people can come up with different ways of using something in a way that it was never intended to be used. A Jeep was designed and created to be used in the adventure of life, hopefully getting the opportunity to visit the great outdoors, and providing a service to the family. But with time, the Jeep wears out, sometimes just due to miles and other times due to neglect and abuse.

Maybe, however, unlike the original designers of the Jeep someone has come up with a more noble and meaningful way of sending off a worn out Jeep with over 200,000 miles on to its last ride.
:eek: My Jeep(s) have over 200k (one over 350k)
Could it be that a teachable moment will occur with some of our youth who identify not with the Jeep that is carrying a family on a great outdoor adventure, but identifies with the neglected and abused version?
There is no doubt that many may identify with the abused/neglected version... will they also identify with the idea of being worthy only of being beaten and discarded as usless, or might it be better to be shown that they can be made whole and of great use to others? Would it not be a great engine to show their value? Did you (Mr. Ashby) miss the part of Sunday's sermon about "recycling" ourselves or the part about how great (not) was the path Abraham took?
A youth who would never think of darkening the door of a church?
As I pointed out before, getting the youth to "darken the door of a church" is of no value if the method was flawed. Why not offer free beer?

You see to us at DSBC, we value the youth more than the Jeep. The Jeep was a gift not for money, but for a purpose worth more than all of the money in the world. The Jeep has far more value as a teaching object, than as a Jeep. Yes, there is a teaching plan behind the event. It is not just to beat up the Jeep. I'm sorry, I must be slow, you are teaching something productive by beating and discarding something that some reguard as neglected and abused ... and you are sure that they will not see that as a solution to their circumstance?:eek:
It is to attract youth to hear a message, that they too like the Jeep were not intended to be abused; AND THEREFORE SHOULD BE WORTHY OF OUR ATTENTION AND CARE ... NOT BEATING AND DISPOSAL (oops... see definition of pationate) they were created for an adventure, an adventure of life that begins with a relationship with Jesus Christ.

If you all would like to come and hear the message we welcome you. Maybe those of you who have been hurt by organized religion may find that we at DSBC are not into religion, we are into a relationship, and that is the one who suffered the greatest beating and humiliation of all, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

For those interested in what the police have to say about the event, we have invited the Phoenix Police Department to attend, and they will be there.

Sincerely,
Ron Ashby,
Chairman of the Elder Board, Desert Springs Bible Church

PS every one of the "youths" including the leader were exuberent in nothing more than getting to beat and destroy a vehicle which was not theirs... yes I questioned several of them (including the "leader" and listened to the discussions

jeepsonly

10-11-2005, 07:13 PM

SavageSun4x4

10-11-2005, 07:18 PM

I offered to exchange my wife's H2 for the Jeep, but my wife saw the e mail and then proceeded to beat on me.:D

Sadly this Jeep beating seems pointless. Maybe they could have used a Yugo or a French made Citroen, maybe a Russian something or anther and talk about the destruction of the communist-socialist state. But to beat a car, an American icon to death doesn't make sense. Maybe they could have painted the car black and called it "Hunger" then charged to beat hunger, then bought food for the poor as someone suggested. Lots of options here. That said:

It's their church, their car, their parking lot and their party. Be careful, very careful or you will fall into the PETA, Greenie mentality.

Anyone here have a dog in this hunt, if you do speak up...:eek: :confused:

OlneyJeeps

10-11-2005, 07:23 PM

Ok im putting on my flame suit here but, dont you think this is grabbing at straws a bit?:confused:
Its a church, of course they will have an offering. Or at least a plate for people to put their tithes in. :)

Flame Suit On!!

*strikes match* (runs for cover):D

I just got a deal on NOMEX (flame retardant) flight suits from ebay (great work suits too)!

Does anyone know if DesertDawg unstacked those rocks in his avitar?:eek: :D

desertdawg

10-11-2005, 07:26 PM

That rock was placed there by God my friend!:D

OlneyJeeps

10-11-2005, 07:27 PM

Griswold

10-11-2005, 07:33 PM

Ok im putting on my flame suit here but, dont you think this is grabbing at straws a bit?:confused:
Its a church, of course they will have an offering. Or at least a plate for people to put their tithes in. :)

Flame Suit On!!

*strikes match* (runs for cover):D
Churches are about money, not saving souls. Example:

Before my wife and I got married we spent a good amount of money to participate in a pre-marital counseling course that lasted 8 weeks at one of the local bible churches. They took our money gladly and then at the end of the course said the would not marry us due to the fact that we lived together at the time. They had no moral problems with telling us that they would happily marry us if we just LIED about our living arrangement and said that we lived apart. In my life I don't have to lie to satisfy god, santa clause or the easter bunny, so I declined and we were married somewhere else.

scy tj

10-11-2005, 07:34 PM

Maybe, however, unlike the original designers of the Jeep someone has come up with a more noble and meaningful way of sending off a worn out Jeep with over 200,000 miles on to its last ride.

Problem is, 200K miles doesn't = worthless vehicle. Judging by what I have seen, this vehicle is in better condition than my first three vehicles of my adult life (even with the graffiti).

The Jeep was a gift not for money, but for a purpose worth more than all of the money in the world. The Jeep has far more value as a teaching object, than as a Jeep.
Tell that to the single mother trying to find a way to get to the grocery store to buy food for her family. Or the Father working two jobs trying to provide for his family, and still can't afford to own his own car.

Yes, there is a teaching plan behind the event. It is not just to beat up the Jeep. It is to attract youth to hear a message, that they too like the Jeep were not intended to be abused;
So you won't be destroying a perfectly usable vehicle after all? Or is the rest of the message "but since it is only an object, go right ahead and take out your frustrations"?

For those interested in what the police have to say about the event, we have invited the Phoenix Police Department to attend, and they will be there.
Coming from a family with deep roots in law enforcement, I'm sure the Phoenix Police will want to be there... you are giving a group called the "Fight Club" blunt instruments and encouraging them to beat on things!:confused: I'm also pretty sure that the church's insurance company would pretty much require police involvement, in case things get out of control (or at least the church is looking to cover its own a@#).

I call bullsh** on a lame attempt to justify a poorly thought out decision!

Griswold

10-11-2005, 07:37 PM

Why is taking an offering a bad thing?
Because my wife and I were told that we were not welcome and did not deserve to be at that church unless we gave every penny we could spare.

Devil Man

10-11-2005, 07:52 PM

SAVE A JEEP KILL A NISSAN:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2557&stc=1&d=1129081843 http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2558&stc=1&d=1129081843

desertdawg

10-11-2005, 07:55 PM

Wow Dman! Your jeep looks so clean and shiney in that pic!:D

jeepin_in_az

10-11-2005, 07:55 PM

Oh good grief are you all sure you want to get into this? You think we're divided politically? Let's talk religion and piss each other off! :rolleyes: Just because we all love Jeeps does not mean we all agree everything else. We all love Jeeps but not everyone here is 1) Republican/Conservative and 2) and non/anti-Christian. Haven't we learned that already Bush/war threads?

Christian churches are supposed to be guided by the Bible, plain and simple. For those who read and believe in the Bible, tithes and offerings were established by God for the benefit of man. It's a matter of faith and serves a practical purpose. Why is taking an offering a bad thing? Someone who isn't a Christian isn't going to understand or appreciate this. BTW, you might as well damn synagogues, too. Their guided by many of the same principles, especially when it comes to offerings and tithes. I like to mention that because for some reason it's popular to slam Christianity but racist to slam Judaism. Are you sure you want to talk about this stuff?

And just because a church is large doesn't mean their profiteers. Large churches often have schools, youth clubs, etc. that take a lot of room.

You guys SURE you want to talk about religion?

Bill,

I think you are viewing this in a different way. Which is NOT wrong, but just wanted to point out some differences.

1. If they sold the Jeep to several people who offered to buy it for cash, then that could be an offering.
2. If they just plain refuse to sell the Jeep (or ANY other working vehcile they had), they must not need money, so why contribute to thier offering?
3. Where in the Bible does God or Jesus "destroy" a working wagon to "send a message"?

I guess those are my views. There are a few more that go into my views more, like Steve had mentioned about selling the vehicle and buying strollers for needy families...

JMO.

Devil Man

10-11-2005, 07:57 PM

Wow Dman! Your jeep looks so clean and shiney in that pic!:D
I HAVE NOT WASHED IT SINCE THE DAY I GOT IT :D

SavageSun4x4

10-11-2005, 08:03 PM

As I said before, this WAS the church my wife and I WERE attending. Trying to changing the things I can, and recognizing the things I can't (but not giving up without a fight)
Granted and I have no truck either way. But what I do see here is a growing MOB mentality.

Right now the only church we need to really worry about is the one that advocates suicide and as a church declares war on the world. They wouldn't be burning a Jeep but a captured American soldier and our flag.

As for "buying" the Jeep from them. WOW, that really sends a positive message. If I were the pastor I'd start rounding up every Jeep XJ I could lay my hands on and have a weekly announced Jeep burning. Sounds like a good way to raise some money. Also falls into the ‘if they don't have it to burn then they won't do bad stuff anymore’. Appeasement DOES NOT work, period! Anyone who has ever tried to appease has only got there faces rubbed in it down the road. Appeasement does not change the way anyone thinks. Now your starting to think like a good liberal democrat along the lines of Kennedy, Schumer, Gore and anyone else that thinks if we only appease them everything will be ok.

Rights: I don’t like it anymore than you do, but its their right to burn that truck to the hubs if they feel like it. Its outside my zone of control, influence, concern and I don’t give a flying crud. Gotta remember this is a free country. If we lived in a country where burning trucks to the hubs was against the law or a MOB could decide they don’t like it I suspect someone may start telling you how to worship, what God to worship to or not and whether or not you are allowed to own a gun...

We have a few more problems that some off the wall church burning a truck to the hubs, lets focus on keeping our trails open and gun ownership in this country.

OlneyJeeps

10-11-2005, 08:04 PM

[QUOTE=scy tj]Problem is, 200K miles doesn't = worthless vehicle. Judging by what I have seen, this vehicle is in better condition than my first three vehicles of my adult life (even with the graffiti).
How bout better than the first 32 (at least at the time I got them) for me?:D

Tell that to the single mother trying to find a way to get to the grocery store to buy food for her family. Or the Father working two jobs trying to provide for his family, and still can't afford to own his own car.
AMEN!!

So you won't be destroying a perfectly usable vehicle after all? Or is the rest of the message "but since it is only an object, go right ahead and take out your frustrations"?

You forgot about the idea that beating something (which statistics show typically leads to beating SOMEONE:eek:

On a lighter note, has anyone noticed that our church...:eek: I mean club has increased by at least one WITHOUT harming a single Jeep???:D

Additionally, I have to note that this discussion (discussion good... preaching ... well you know) has been (to the best of my observation) void of name calling. It is obvious which group I have reason to be the most proud to be a part of.
THANKYOU

Devil Man

10-11-2005, 08:14 PM

On a lighter note, has anyone noticed that our church...:eek: I mean club has increased by at least one WITHOUT harming a single Jeep???:D [/SIZE]

THAT'S NOT TRUE I JUST HIT MINE WITH A BAT & I HATE TO ADMIT IT BUT I DID FEEL GOOD :D

OlneyJeeps

10-11-2005, 08:27 PM

[QUOTE=SavageSun4x4]Granted and I have no truck either way. But what I do see here is a growing MOB mentality.

Right now the only church we need to really worry about is the one that advocates suicide and as a church declares war on the world. They wouldn't be burning a Jeep but a captured American soldier and our flag.

As for "buying" the Jeep from them. WOW, that really sends a positive message. If I were the pastor I'd start rounding up every Jeep XJ I could lay my hands on and have a weekly announced Jeep burning. Sounds like a good way to raise some money. Also falls into the ‘if they don't have it to burn then they won't do bad stuff anymore’. Appeasement DOES NOT work, period! Anyone who has ever tried to appease has only got there faces rubbed in it down the road. Appeasement does not change the way anyone thinks. Now your starting to think like a good liberal democrat along the lines of Kennedy, Schumer, Gore and anyone else that thinks if we only appease them everything will be ok.
If you go back to my offer to purchase, you will see that the offer entailed that the payment be made as a contribution to the American Red Cross or other credible non profit agency with some proof of decent financial steward ship

Rights: I don’t like it anymore than you do, but its their right to burn that truck to the hubs if they feel like it. Its outside my zone of control, influence, concern and I don’t give a flying crud. Gotta remember this is a free country. If we lived in a country where burning trucks to the hubs was against the law or a MOB could decide they don’t like it I suspect someone may start telling you how to worship, what God to worship to or not and whether or not you are allowed to own a gun...
I (and I don't recall anyone else) questioning their "right" to do what they want; I questioned what was "right" (vs. "wrong")

on another note,
Oh no!!!!!!!!! DevilMan, you too funny! ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and another note,
Who's ready to go to god's house (the one without a roof or collection plates)this weekend? It's a shame most of their spoiled manicured ipod carrying gucci coverd skin deep got a new Acura (the poor ones got dad's year old Toyota )when they turned 16 souls will never get to experience. Oh well, they cant say they never had a chance to have a Jeep like too many others could. Their choice: destroy,destroy destroy (as their parents taught them).

Oops, blood pressure started going up again:eek: .... Dman where are you (need another post):D :D :)

OlneyJeeps

10-11-2005, 08:29 PM

rotflmao!!!!!!!!!!!

desertdawg

10-11-2005, 08:31 PM

I still want to know if that dang Jeep has a Dana 35 in it! I got scars on my knuckles, my back is killin me and I lost my $200 prescription sunglasses while fixin that dang dana 35 axle Special K broke on Crown King Saturday!:eek:
I wanna beat the crap out of it if it does! That will make me feel Reeeel Goood!:D

OlneyJeeps

10-11-2005, 08:31 PM

THAT'S NOT TRUE I JUST HIT MINE WITH A BAT & I HATE TO ADMIT IT BUT I DID FEEL GOOD :D

When do you hold your next "service"?

I'm in!
Do I need to bring a bat or do you provide?:eek: :D

Joe West

10-11-2005, 08:32 PM

Here's the letter I received from the Sr. Pastor:

Dear Joe,

Thank you for your offer to purchase the Jeep, but the donor stipulated that
it was to be used for this purpose as an object lesson for our students. The
donor was going to take this Jeep to the junkyard and does not intend for it
to be sold. Unfortunately, I do not have the time to explain what the
lesson is, but it is certainly NOT how to be destructive as has been
reported.

Sincerely,
Rick Efird, Sr. Pastor

Devil Man

10-11-2005, 08:35 PM

When do you hold your next "service"?

I'm in!
Do I need to bring a bat or do you provide?:eek: :D
I HAVE A GOOD BAT YOU CAN USE :D

Griswold

10-11-2005, 08:41 PM

OlneyJeeps

10-11-2005, 08:43 PM

Still wondering if it would be worth it to invite anyone with a big / ratty (some GOOD junk!) to meet in the parking lot just to show what junk can do (inspire a build up / creation instead of destruction). On the one hand I am utterly disgusted with the opulant snobbery (think they are cool because they can destroy something others want), but on the other, education has to start somewhere.

anyone.... Beuhler?

Special K

10-11-2005, 08:46 PM

Okay, Okay Mike, when I get a knew axle I will give you the D35 and you can take all your frustrations out on it, OR, maybe I'll donate it to a church.

willtjx

10-11-2005, 08:48 PM

since its of no value ill take the 4.0L inline. they can still beat the heck out of the rest of it.

OlneyJeeps

10-11-2005, 08:50 PM

Well screw that last idea, Mr. Eiford (pastor) finally responded via internet:

Steve,

I have tried to call you on a number of occasions but your line has been busy, so I am briefly responding via email.

As I promised you, I have talked to Bradley to see what his intent in all of this was and to discuss possible alternative options. I have also discussed this with the rest of our staff and with the Chairman and Vice-chairman of our Board. While I do not believe that you will understand or agree with us, our decision is to proceed as planned and as has been communicated to our students.

First of all, this was the stated intent of the donor. Regardless of your offer (and others) of purchasing the vehicle, the stipulation of the donation was that it be used for this purpose. Secondly, it is NOT that we are arbitrarily taking a vehicle that was donated to the church and destroying it just for fun. There is a specific object lesson that it is being used to reinforce. I will not attempt to explain in this email what that message is in this email but would be glad to talk with you about it in person. I will say that it is NOT how to be destructive as you have stated to me and reported to others.

Finally, I am greatly saddened by your approach of airing this disagreement over the internet. If I was inclined to work out a compromise before, I am not now. While I respect your opinion, your right to disagree with our decision, and your right to fellowship elsewhere, I do not respect nor appreciate your attempt to “bully” us through aggressively spreading your version of this issue. In essence, you have used a “sledge hammer” of your own to try to put “dents” in a work that God is using to touch more lives than you know.

If you would like to meet to discuss this personally, I would be glad to. However, I will not be responding to any more emails regarding this issue.

Rick Efird

desertdawg

10-11-2005, 08:53 PM

Oh that would be great! Thank You! Thank You! Spec K! I need to get this pent up frustration and aggression out of me! By the way, you still owe me lunch.:D I'm thinking Los Somberos?;) Maybe Turtle Scooter and Little Bob can join us.:D

desertdawg

10-11-2005, 09:03 PM

Hey the Amazing race is on, Their gonna drive jeeps through mud tonight!:cool:

Gotta go!:D Have Fun!

SavageSun4x4

10-11-2005, 09:03 PM

If you go back to my offer to purchase, you will see that the offer entailed that the payment be made as a contribution to the American Red Cross or other credible non profit agency with some proof of decent financial steward ship

I (and I don't recall anyone else) questioning their "right" to do what they want; I questioned what was "right" (vs. "wrong")

1) Regardless of the your well meaning intentions and the attachments you have placed upon your offer to purchase, it is not going to change their way of thinking.

2) Right Vs Wrong? This has turned into a mob action and the mob is deciding what is right and what is wrong. No one is questioning the RIGHT to do? Just what is right Vs Wrong? Give me a friggin break! Glad as hell I don’t have you sitting in judgment of whether or not I have a right to defend myself with my own gun. Nope, your off base.

Sorry I expected more from this group. At first I thought it was funny, but then it clearly started running away under its own steam with each piling on more wood for the fire. I’m also disappointed in the ‘holier than thou’ attitude, we who demand our rights to drive the trails with our Jeeps. Lets live and let live here and as I said, focus on protecting our RIGHTS to public lands and to use those public lands.

OUT HERE!

jeepsonly

10-11-2005, 09:13 PM

This thread reminds me of an analogy. My family and I have been four-wheeling quite a bit over the years and on at least 4 occassions (including once during an AZVJC trail cleanup) some idiot ATV driver has circled us and done donuts so as to spread dirt and rocks over us and our vehicles. I have never owned an ATV but it didn't take but a few times before I started getting pissed at ATV riders. It seemed to me that ATV's were the problem, especially regarding land use debates. This may be where some of you are right now with how you feel about church or religion.

Here's an analogy about where I am with it: On many of those wheeling trips I've met some pretty stupid Jeepers...guys that needed a good dose of brains or ethics for things like throwing lit cigarettes out on the trail or throwing trash or bypassing a fellow Jeeper in need. I know those people are in the minority though because I personally know a good many Jeepers, (including many of you!) who aren't like that. I don't condemn the sport/hobby because of the idiots. That's where I am with regard to church and religion.

I have since met a few good ATV people, too. :)

And for those of you who wouldn't have taken the donation with that stipulation...really? If we all had a BBQ and someone had a Jeep they wanted us all the crawl all over for fun...you guys wouldn't do it? Sounds a little "holier than thou" to me.

Oh and before we all congratulate ourselves for how noble we've been in this thread, I seem to remember some name calling and low blows. I think churches in general being likened to money grabbing profiteers and the suggestion (even in jest) that we show up and beat on the church people qualifies as less than noble. :rolleyes:

OlneyJeeps

10-11-2005, 10:02 PM

Here's an analogy about where I am with it: On many of those wheeling trips I've met some pretty stupid Jeepers...guys that needed a good dose of brains or ethics for things like throwing lit cigarettes out on the trail or throwing trash or bypassing a fellow Jeeper in need. I know those people are in the minority though because I personally know a good many Jeepers, (including many of you!) who aren't like that. I don't condemn the sport/hobby because of the idiots. That's where I am with regard to church and religion.

I have since met a few good ATV people, too. :)

And for those of you who wouldn't have taken the donation with that stipulation...really? If we all had a BBQ and someone had a Jeep they wanted us all the crawl all over for fun...you guys wouldn't do it? Sounds a little "holier than thou" to me.

Oh and before we all congratulate ourselves for how noble we've been in this thread, I seem to remember some name calling and low blows. I think churches in general being likened to money grabbing profiteers and the suggestion (even in jest) that we show up and beat on the church people qualifies as less than noble. :rolleyes:

Once again I ask you to refer to each of my "replies". I tried to make a point to refer (and even bold when stated) to THIS church.

I never said or implied that i though I was better than them (or anyone). I merely assesed their actions as very poorly thought out with potentially substantially negative byproducts and costs.

Griswold

10-11-2005, 10:06 PM

I think churches in general being likened to money grabbing profiteers and the suggestion (even in jest) that we show up and beat on the church people qualifies as less than noble.
I believe most churches are money grabbing profiteers but never suggested any kind of confrontation.

paparonbo

10-11-2005, 10:38 PM

It's a shame most of their spoiled manicured ipod carrying
Hey, I dig my ipod :mad:
Just kidding. I am going to see if I can get off work early to come down Wed night.
:D :D

Ron
00 XJ
87 Xj

OlneyJeeps

10-11-2005, 10:41 PM

OlneyJeeps

10-11-2005, 10:45 PM

Hey, I dig my ipod :mad:

And I thought your were sleeping:D (not that I would ever make a comment specifically targeted to rile anyone into a response :rolleyes: :D )

Should I bring the CJ7 so you could drive up the tires with your "junk"?:D

paparonbo

10-11-2005, 11:35 PM

And I thought your were sleeping:D (not that I would ever make a comment specifically targeted to rile anyone into a response :rolleyes: :D )

Should I bring the CJ7 so you could drive up the tires with your "junk"?:D
Junk is right, I've got one 4 years older and with more miles than theirs. :D
Sounds good to me. I'll give you a call to let you know if I will make it.

I am interested in hearing what the message is. I honestly think that the church has positive motives even though I don't agree with the method.

I think its worth reminding anyone who might come out that even if we don't agree with what they are doing that it is still a church and disrupting their event would be very disrespectful, would reflect poorly on the club, and might be illegal (reminder that the PD was invited).

Ron
00 XJ
87 XJ

paparonbo

10-12-2005, 12:06 AM

1) Regardless of the your well meaning intentions and the attachments you have placed upon your offer to purchase, it is not going to change their way of thinking.

2) Right Vs Wrong? This has turned into a mob action and the mob is deciding what is right and what is wrong. No one is questioning the RIGHT to do? Just what is right Vs Wrong? Give me a friggin break! Glad as hell I don’t have you sitting in judgment of whether or not I have a right to defend myself with my own gun. Nope, your off base.

1) I agree that it probably won't change anybody's mind, but its worth letting the church know how it appears to others. I'm sure that they didn't indend to appear wasteful, or consider how the demonstration might be taken.

2) I would like to thank you and every other veteran that served in our armed forces for defending this very right. I noticed that the church invited the police to come to the event. That would mean that the government would be present to defend both the right of free speech and freedom of religion. I may not agree with what everyone says or does, but I strongly defend their right to say it. As to the mob, I don't remember anyone saying that they coudn't do it just that they shouldn't.

Ron
00 XJ
87 XJ

jeepsonly

10-12-2005, 12:07 AM

I never suggested we beat on the chruch (did I?). The whole premise I started this thread for was to show a much more productive use of a valuable asset (IE show what they could build or do with "junk")

Nope, I don't think you did. Someone mentioned beat/wheeling over the youth pastor, though I'm sure it was in jest.

Allen

10-12-2005, 01:30 AM

Well...I'm guessing its all beat to H*LL by now! Wonder if you couldnt get it for a better price??

Sedona Jeep School

10-12-2005, 07:47 AM

I would like to thank you and every other veteran that served in our armed forces for defending this very right. I noticed that the church invited the police to come to the event. That would mean that the government would be present to defend both the right of free speech and freedom of religion. I may not agree with what everyone says or does, but I strongly defend their right to say it. As to the mob, I don't remember anyone saying that they coudn't do it just that they shouldn't.
I have kept out of this until now, because my mama taught me that it is not polite to talk about politics, sex, or religion in public.

I MUST say this.

#1 What "statement" is this church trying to make by beating something? I have heard no such claim to exercising their "freedom of speech", in fact, quite the opposite--what little they have said and what they are doing demonstrates very little thought at all. I am all for making a statement, but no has made one here--oh, wait--yes, they have! It is this: "Our youth ministry program is the most destructive and irresponsible group in the country, but we are too stupid to even string a complete sentence together!"

#2 We are talking about a youth program--CHILDREN. Not only would I not allow my son to participate in such pointless destruction, but I am abhorred that someone as stupid as this youth minister is allowed to be in a persuasive position with children at all. Would you want your children at this event?

#3 Regardless of my personal spiritual inclinations, what I have studied of the teachings of Jesus is completely incongruent with this beating event. I am surprised that the church leaders are allowing such a display of blatant disregard for their Christian principles. Tolerance, peace, and love are not taught with a baseball bat--unless you go to Catholic school :D (sorry, had to throw that one in!)

Steve

10-12-2005, 11:48 AM

:cool: Well said, I too agree. As I'm not much for church's already this type of thing doesn't make it any better. :rolleyes:

#1 What "statement" is this church trying to make by beating something? I have heard no such claim to exercising their "freedom of speech", in fact, quite the opposite--what little they have said and what they are doing demonstrates very little thought at all. I am all for making a statement, but no has made one here--oh, wait--yes, they have! It is this: "Our youth ministry program is the most destructive and irresponsible group in the country, but we are too stupid to even string a complete sentence together!"

#2 We are talking about a youth program--CHILDREN. Not only would I not allow my son to participate in such pointless destruction, but I am abhorred that someone as stupid as this youth minister is allowed to be in a persuasive position with children at all. Would you want your children at this event?

#3 Regardless of my personal spiritual inclinations, what I have studied of the teachings of Jesus is completely incongruent with this beating event. I am surprised that the church leaders are allowing such a display of blatant disregard for their Christian principles. Tolerance, peace, and love are not taught with a baseball bat--

OlneyJeeps

10-12-2005, 11:59 AM

I just got off the phone with the president of the church (Mr. Ashby). I attempted to logically state my view (using destruction is an inappropriate and counterproductive method to promote a caring / productive youth ). His answer(s) included:

Because of the method I used (internet) my "argument" / alternative suggestions ares not worthy of discussion.
LOGIC: ad hominom (argument to the person/source logical) error

Because this might draw youths to this church, it is a valid use of an assett.
LOGIC: Attraction of pliable minds justifies destruction of something which has value (reguardless of value quanity or alternative uses except if it has special value to the church (ie: a bible:eek: ))
oh jeez, did I just infer that we take something which others might cherish (THEIR qualifications) old, torn and beyond our personal use (THEIR qualifications)and burn/destroy it to attract attention? Mr Ashby stated this would be clearly wrong, but saw no parralell

Made a special point because I (still looking for) used "WTF"(Woment Taking Feromones?), my suggestions bear no merit.

OlneyJeeps

10-12-2005, 12:09 PM

By the way, he was also particulary incensed that I have caused a substantial "waste of time" for his staff by promoting the public discussion of their decision. My response: anyone who fears/refuses public debate usually either unsure they could defend themselves (except with the uneducated/pliable ) or has something to hide.

jeepsonly

10-12-2005, 12:25 PM

What do you guys think of Monster Garage? Just curious because Jesse has utterly destroyed 5 perfectly usable/fixable vehicles for pure entertainment so far.

SavageSun4x4

10-12-2005, 12:36 PM

I have kept out of this until now, because my mama taught me that it is not polite to talk about politics, sex, or religion in public.

I MUST say this.

#1 What "statement" is this church trying to make by beating something? I have heard no such claim to exercising their "freedom of speech", in fact, quite the opposite--what little they have said and what they are doing demonstrates very little thought at all. I am all for making a statement, but no has made one here--oh, wait--yes, they have! It is this: "Our youth ministry program is the most destructive and irresponsible group in the country, but we are too stupid to even string a complete sentence together!"

#2 We are talking about a youth program--CHILDREN. Not only would I not allow my son to participate in such pointless destruction, but I am abhorred that someone as stupid as this youth minister is allowed to be in a persuasive position with children at all. Would you want your children at this event?

#3 Regardless of my personal spiritual inclinations, what I have studied of the teachings of Jesus is completely incongruent with this beating event. I am surprised that the church leaders are allowing such a display of blatant disregard for their Christian principles. Tolerance, peace, and love are not taught with a baseball bat--unless you go to Catholic school :D (sorry, had to throw that one in!)
Level headed as always, when Nena speaks, 'better listen up pilgrims'.

mingoglia

10-12-2005, 12:52 PM

Nena's more of a woman than I'll EVER be!

k7mto

10-12-2005, 01:07 PM

What do you guys think of Monster Garage? Just curious because Jesse has utterly destroyed 5 perfectly usable/fixable vehicles for pure entertainment so far.

It sucks - not because of vehicle destruction, it's just a lousy program.

Tom Jacobson

10-12-2005, 01:33 PM

Maybe this will be like the story of Abraham. Abraham is willing ot sacrifice his son to demonstrate his faith in God. At the last second, an angel stops Abraham's arm from killing his son.

Keep an eye out for the Jeep guardian angels!

FWIW, I think the Jeep/Vehicle smashing "in the name of the Lord" is ridiculous. But there's nothing we're gonna do about it. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and allow that they have a good message to teach the youth, but fail to see any possible connection to a message through the destruction of this perfectly good vehicle.

Oh well. I'll be enjoying God's creations up close and personal this weekend. I guess you might even say I'll be "Beating my Jeep".

I don't enjoy seeing the generalized bashing of religion. Believe what you want, for whatever reason you want. But similar sweeping attacks, generalizations would never be tolerated, let's say, against a race of people.

However, I wonder how it makes Mr. Ashby and the other member of the church responding here feel to see that there "event" has probably turned a number of people away from "religion", or solidified their personal views that "religion" is bad???

Was that the message they wanted?

Tom

ps. Monster Garage has totally become Hacker Garage. Notice how practically everything other than the outer skin of the vehicles is always painted in "Cover it up Black"???

My1stJeep

10-12-2005, 02:22 PM

Tom,

That is exactly the problem I see with this event. People either wavering on the fence of believing or not believing will say how bad this is, and give them ammunition to fire with. Much the same when a Greenie sees an OHV user do something wrong and depicts it in a manner that says all OHV users are out to destroy the world. Same principle, same results.

Yes I think it is bad it is a Jeep, but the make of vehicle is not what has me wanting the event to stop, it is the image that outsiders will see and assume all Christians are like this.

I may be on the outside as to why I want the event to stop, most may rather be upset it is a Jeep, I am more upset with their actions as a so called church.

jeepsonly

10-12-2005, 02:59 PM

Okay...so just to be clear...should we Jeep people also refrain from crawling/climbing on cars, junk or not, because of perception?

OlneyJeeps

10-12-2005, 03:53 PM

Driving on and destroying an intact, drivable, and viably useable vehicle, I would say no. One which has been destroyed in accident and no longer even remotely viable, no harm, no foul.

I refuse to watch/patronize "monster garage", but my probability at changing, infitesmaly small. Chances of making these people stop... very small. Chances at making at least some of these people question how stupid, destructive and counterproductive, high. Chances of at least making these people think... done.

I (as we all have been invited to attend peacefully) will be there at 6:45 with my '46 CJ2a (feel free to clibm tires:D ), pictures of it as "junk" (after my accident), pictures of me as "junk" (recovering from coma after my accident). Question "what would Jesus do with "damaged goods"? A: repair/rebuild B: destroy to attract followers.

I will also have a BBQ to take donations of old used childrens book (symbolizing the discarding/destruction of our innocence). I contemplated bibles (would meet their criteria: old, worn out, replaced with "newer" models and therefore worthless), but sensing the intellectual level of this group it would only provide fodder to discredit me/whoever shows up.

The pastor and president were upset with my methods on confronting their reasoning. Correct me if I am wrong, but is the name of the club "discuss club?":eek:

OlneyJeeps

10-12-2005, 04:15 PM

Not to stretch the analogy too far:eek: , but how many "good Christians" sat idly by as others destroyed did what they reasoned to be right in the name of being "good Christians" in the past? Sagen sie, "Krystal Nacht?"
squeeze me while I go get my nomex:D

jeepsonly

10-12-2005, 04:31 PM

Yeah but judging Christianity on the misdeeds of some throughout history makes as much sense as saying America is bad because we've had some bad citizens and leaders. America...or in this case Christianity...isn't the problem - people are.

How many "good Americans" stood idly by and watched at Wounded Knee? How many "good humans" sat idly by while innocent people were massacred in Yugoslavia? Doesn't make us all bad or what we believe in wrong.

jeephreak

10-12-2005, 04:35 PM

My1stJeep

10-12-2005, 05:01 PM

Actually there was some discussion about parking on vehicles at the Girl Scout Show. I had suggested getting a car to park our Jeeps on, however what kind of image does that put forth? If you are driving a non-street legal monster truck crushing junk cars that is one thing, but keep in mind we are catoring to Joe Public,their perception which dictates how they vote. A street legal Jeep they see driving in, then parked on top of a car may not give the best perception off. Climbing a rubber tire is different than climbing on the actual sheet metal. Not that I am against it if you don't care, your vehicle your money, but consider the consequences of Joe Public watching.

If we want to change our image we may have to change our ways. Using a already junked out, no engine in the vehicle, dented vehicle would have been better, but the question still remains, what is the lesson to be learned from smashing up a vehicle from a Church perspective?

I don't think lumping all religions of even the same religion but different synod is correct, but non-believers don't see it the same way.

OlneyJeeps

10-12-2005, 05:37 PM

Just curious, are people actually going over there to hear the message? I am curious as to just what the message is, and what type of turn out they get for this. Where exactly is this church located again?

thanks

"Church" is on north east corner of paradise lane and Tatum (paradise lane is about 3 blocks south of Bell, Tatum is about 1 mile E of SR51)

While mowing lawn I had starteling relizeation (is that a word?).... during my conversation with the "president" of the orginization, at one point ( I assume trying to get me to "admit" "value" of getting someone to the church ) he started questioning me what I would die for. When I refused to answer (knowing he had something up his sleeve to try to use against me), he asked "would you die for your church?" :eek: :eek: :eek: In the background, I had the history channel on .... they were discussing the methods and reasoning of Mohamad Atta :eek: :eek: :eek: Surprised he did not ask if I would kill for my church. Having been so close to death, virtually nothing scares me. I regret and will NEVER EVER EVER EVER (ad-infinitum) leave my kids with this guy (and what he is teaching) or representative of "his" church again. This is sick... just sick.

ScoobyDoo

10-12-2005, 05:56 PM

This preacher justifies this "Because this might draw youths to this church, it is a valid use of an assett."

then He should exept your cash offer, and spend the money on some exotic dancers, That would certainly draw in the youth :D

And me too :eek:

Bama

10-12-2005, 07:19 PM

If i were these kids parents, I would be more worried about my kids being hurt by immature teens swinging sledge hammers into the glass and sharp sheetmetal on this jeep. I would rather them beat on my junk than that nice jeep, mine is worthless and i own about two other scout tubs that i received for free, so i could repair my crap:D There is just no reason for it. Oh well.

Joe West

10-12-2005, 07:40 PM

All,

If anyone decides to show up at this church event, all I ask is that you be respectful. It may very well be that a bunch of kids... seeing a bunch of nice Jeeps and Jeepers watching, may not be so anxious to beat the Jeep. I can see a positive side to a presence, as long as it is respectful.

Like it or not, you represent our club if you go... and as such, you need to respect the Church's right to do whatever they want with the Jeep that was donated to them. I don't agree with what they are doing for many of the reasons that have already been outlined in this thread... however:

it is their right to destroy a vehicle in a manner we find reprehensible JUST as it is our right to bash our vehicles into rocks (consider that people exist who would question how we treat our vehicles and would regard it as abuse) and drive them any way we wish.

All I ask is that you set a better example than this church is setting.. if you attend the Jeep bash; please simply watch and do not engage.

Thanks,

Joe

OlneyJeeps

10-12-2005, 08:56 PM

Report(partial)

This is only a "partial" report because after 10 minutes I could not stand any more. I was forced to watch from outside because I hadn't signed a "waiver". Just a coincidence they had none available (even though they had specifically stated they were trying to attract "new" members). What an obvious crock of feces.

It was sick. With a bunch of ultra luxury cars in the parking lot (one "pimped" cherokee), the Jeep was inside a meeting hall filled with frenzied ready for a punk rock concert teenagers. A bunch of spoiled, mommy and daddy will let them wear anything (including dressing like $3 whores and the males with pants with belts they obviously did not know how to work because they were half way to their knees) brats who wanted nothing but to show everyone that they would never want a pice of junk. The leader was working the group best he could to get them into a foaming screeming frenzied mob, begging to make the first swing.

Sick of it and left. Opon leaving, I asked Mr. Eiford that my name be removed from the directory. His response was he would only if I promised never to email or contact the church again (sounds like he wanted to shut me up). I respectfully declined his offer:D

Wind_Danzer

10-12-2005, 09:24 PM

Where's my puke smilie....

Was there anyone from the club there?

OlneyJeeps

10-12-2005, 09:36 PM

I'm in the club (aren't I????:eek: ):D

was there a secret vote I wasnt informed about:confused:
it's all a big conspiricy.... I knew it!!

Devil Man

10-12-2005, 09:48 PM

I'm in the club (aren't I????:eek: ):D

was there a secret vote I wasnt informed about:confused:
it's all a big conspiricy.... I knew it!!
YEP :eek: :rolleyes: :D

RokNRich

10-12-2005, 11:59 PM

Hey the Amazing race is on, Their gonna drive jeeps through mud tonight!:cool:

Gotta go!:D Have Fun!

Anyone else notice that the SWB jeeps didn't make it and the unlimiteds did ? Glad we don't have much mud around here......;)

paparonbo

10-13-2005, 12:27 AM

Here are some photos of it:
http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2537&d=1128898151
http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2541&stc=1&d=1128903823
http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2535&d=1128898109
WOW
I was stuck at work and missed the beginning of the event, got there at 7:30. Steve had already left, everything was taking place inside one of the buildings and there were two uniformed police officers standing at the entrance. I decided that I didn't want to get anything stirred up so I drove through the parking lot in my lifted XJ.

My pregnant wife sent me on a late night Del Taco run so I swung by the church on the way to see the result. Until this point I thought that the chruch had its heart in the right place but had a bad plan.
I would now like to officially rescind that position. The violence that must have been involved to inflict the damage I saw is NOT something that should take place in a place of worship. I don't really know what else to say. Frankly, I'm disturbed.
http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2568&stc=1&d=1129184431
http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2564&stc=1&d=1129184065
http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2566&stc=1&d=1129184065
http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2569&stc=1&d=1129184065

Bama

10-13-2005, 01:12 AM

Holy s**t. Thats a horrid seen. Kids did that? Looks like they ran something down the middle of that thing. Geeze.

Tom Jacobson

10-13-2005, 08:45 AM

<Vomit>

But perhaps we should praise the "president" (uhh...church's have presidents? That's different. Anyway.). He must have gotten a bunch of youth's into the church that wouldn't have come before.

His message, I'm sure, was very powerful and moving...and all those kids will be in the pews next Sunday listening to scripture. <roll eyes>

Will his next "message" delivery involve dog fighting?

Oh, sorry...was I being sarcastic????

Tom

joedokes28

10-13-2005, 10:46 AM

Organized religion...what a joke

Joe West

10-13-2005, 10:54 AM

Let's keep this topic off of religion in general. Not all, and in fact I'd say MOST organized religions would not agree with what this church did.

I don't want this thread to become a religion bashing contest... bash what THIS church did all you want; please don't speak about religion in generalized terms.

By the way... I tend towards agnostic and/or athiestic beliefs combined with choice parts from eastern religions... so I'm not "protecting" anyone... just trying to keep things civil. With religion, as with most things; there are good and there are bad.

Joe

joedokes28

10-13-2005, 12:13 PM

10-4 Joe.

We share simialr beliefs btw.

OlneyJeeps

10-13-2005, 12:24 PM

Joe W- ditto

Letter to the editor, Arizona Republic
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/sendaletter.html

Would you like a lesson in arrogant snobbery? Desert Springs Bible Church. Wednesday, the church president and pastor looked on as the teenagers of the church destroyed a vehicle. Sunday, before the destruction, I implored the pastor to reconsider. He said he new nothing about it and would look into it. The youth supervisor tried to justify working kids into a wild frenzy on two basis: 1: The vehicle had no value because of its condition / it was donated (even though it had been driven to the location there had been several offers to purchase) and 2: The event could draw youths who might never "darken the doorway" of a church. My answers: 1: Although the owner may have, in his youthful opulent snobbery gave little value to something others cherished, as evidenced by multiple offers to purchase, the vehicle clearly had value (enough to purchase over 1000 loaves of bread). 2. Although promoting violent destruction is as sure way to attract youths as book burning did for the nazi's, I still could not fathom how destruction could send a positive message. In a telephone conversation with the president of the church, in trying to justify the destruction of a valuable asset, goaded me with the question "Would you die for your church?" It should be noted that in the background was the history channel discussing the motives and methods of Mohammed Atta.

It should be noted that I, and others volunteered their time, hard work and resources to recycle and restore (the message of Sunday's sermon) the vehicle. The church declined. As invited, I attempted to listen to the message. Instead, although I saw none else being asked for one, I was not allowed in the building because I had not signed an injury waiver. When I asked for one, they replied they had none. Forgive my poor memory, but was this event not to attract NEW attendees? I watched from a distance witnessing a frenzied mob, egged on by a leader basking in his momentary popularity, beg and scurry to be the first to destroy the vehicle reminiscent of mobs burning books, crosses, and people.

I do not question organized religion. I question this church's actions. When I asked my name be removed from the church's directory, incensed that I had made the plans public on the Internet, the president said he would only on the condition that I promise never to e-mail him or anyone else about this matter. I do not question this or any church's right to destroy their assets they should not question my right to publicly question their motives and methods.

It is my opinion that more than the doorway of this church has been darkened.

OlneyJeeps

10-13-2005, 12:50 PM

To Mr. Eiford:

What I witnessed last night can only be described as sick and deranged. Your choice not to respond to my or others concerns with your teachings only further proves your arrogant snobbery. Your refusal to allow me the means to enter (yes I found it quite curious that although you stated you were trying to attract people, you would not have the means (extra disclaimer forms required apparently only of me) to allow them in) further enhances the view or you and your church as elitist. You stated you sought youths to "darken the doorstep" of the church yet you refuse to discuss the matter (we did not block you from our forum). You have darkened more than the doorstep of your (and obviously and sadly all churches in general) church.

JoeMomma

10-13-2005, 01:16 PM

Well, you were much nicer than my email to him. :D

-----

Being atheist I really couldn't care less about religion - but I do recognize evil when I see it. Using a destructive event like this to lure children in to try to "spread your word" is one of the lowest things I have heard in a long time. Instead of doing something positive with this gift - such as donating it to a needy family, selling it and giving the proceeds to charity, or fixing it up as a team building project - you choose to destroy it to further your own selfish designs. Luckily most children today are smart enough to think for themselves and not blindly follow your propaganda. People like you make me sick.

Sincerely,

Mike

paparonbo

10-13-2005, 01:25 PM

Letter to the editor, Arizona Republic
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/sendaletter.html
You should also send a letter to the Northeast Phoenix Independent
(http://www2.newszap.com/northeastphoenix/) to the news or speak out address nephoenixnews@newszap.com (mailto:nephoenixnews@newszap.com) It does a very good job of covering issues in the local area and is delivered free to every house in this part of town.

Joe West

10-13-2005, 01:43 PM

Those pictures of the destroyed XJ make me sick.

You can tell from looking at them; that it really WAS a nice rig before they destroyed it.

Think of the people who don't have vehicles who would have treated this XJ like a gift from God.

Think of the family who is barely scraping by and is using the bus.. or walking... or riding bicycles.

I am not kidding when I say that I am utterly floored that a "church" could do such a thing... and teach such a lesson to children.

Yes... they have a right. But having the right doesn't make it right.

The people at the church who made such a decision to destroy something that less-fortunate people would cherish should be terminated. In fact; I'll go so far as to hope that Karma catches up with them and someday they find themselves in a position where they don't have a vehicle, and don't have the money to obtain one... it would be the ultimate and only appropriate justice.

Joe

OlneyJeeps

10-13-2005, 06:08 PM

Pissed beyond belief, I decided to peacefully protest the church (sat on corner with sign "arrogant destruction taught here"
my wagoneer was leagally parked (slightly out of my sight) on road in front of church. While several people were happy to stop and discuss (several recomended I contact channel 3), the only representatives of the church were 2 seperate vehicles whiched stopped at intersection waiting for light. (after waiting for some time and saying nothing) 1 (lexus) shouted "get a life" and sped off, they other shouted a vulgarity and sped off. The best is last: letter to Mr. Ashby explains:

Mr. Ashby,

Congratulations are in order... it is obvious they learned something.
While I was peacefully protesting your church (I am sure reports have gotten to you by now), my vehicle (parked leagally on a public road in front of your church) was vandalized!
once again, congratulations!
message sent
message received

Wind_Danzer

10-13-2005, 06:23 PM

Someone vandalised your Jeep?

OlneyJeeps

10-13-2005, 07:16 PM

As John Wayne would say, "Yeahp"
though the vandalism is minimal, vandalism is vandalism
Keyed (although it blends in with pinstriping and virtually disappeard with rubbing compound), and gummed (ask me how I know my kids did not discard matching gum on my hood and seat)
I guess it dosent matter because my Jeep is older than the one they destroyed:mad:
was going to pronounce the horse's tod, but
Me thinks someone gave me reason to come back
sickness is unacceptable and should not be ignored
ready to go back to AK where everyone waves and you can leave the keys in the ignition (good thing they didnt notice I had done that too:eek: )

Crawldit

10-13-2005, 08:37 PM

ready to go back to AK where everyone waves and you can leave the keys in the ignition (good thing they didnt notice I had done that too:eek: )

When I lived in New York we didn't even have a lock for the front door :eek: You're very luck that they didn't see your keys otherwise they would have had their next "donated" vehicle :rolleyes: Being both a Roman Catholic and an Ordained Minister I have tried to stay out of this thread. All I can say is that every thing about THAT Church is completed misguided. Sorry to hear that your rig got vandalized. I would guess that the Pastor was rejoicing when he found out, it means that he's "message" came across loud and clear :( What a sad day......

joedokes28

10-13-2005, 10:24 PM

the actions of that church are simply unbeliveable

rvisokey

10-13-2005, 10:40 PM

Sorry. I just had to.
http://www.visokey.com/temp/joinus.jpg

jeepin_in_az

10-13-2005, 10:42 PM

Sorry. I just had to.
http://www.visokey.com/temp/joinus.jpg

PERFECT!!! :D

Bama

10-14-2005, 02:51 AM

Thats just to funny.:)

Astrosmash

10-14-2005, 03:43 AM

It is a joy and privilege to be included in this post.

As it turns out, I am a student who was present at the "Beat the Jeep" event promoted for the "Fight Club" ministry at DSBC. More than anything, I am sick and tired of the constant prevarication that has served for the foundation of this entire thread. Lies should never be the basis of any sort of altruistic mission, for one type of moral laxity can only lead to further and greater types of infractions. Please, if you have been listening to the words of Mr. Olney, listen to me carefully, for I have served as an objective witness to the full gamut of events that have transpired thus far.
To begin, I feel as if nobody has received a just, honest look at the individual members of our church. If you wish to slander the youth pastor, then go ahead and do that, but to speak ill of us kids is shameful. I will now remind you of some of the words that have been used by Mr. Olney. He described the students at my church as "spoiled, manicured, ipod-carrying, Gucci-covered, skin-deep, got-a-new-Acura (the poor ones got dad's year-old Toyota) when-they-turned-16" individuals (p. 5). These are not the students who attend our church. There are representatives of various socioeconomic classes in my youth group, which I know from visiting their homes personally. Some may have money, but across the board they are average people. It was said by Stephen Olney that our parking lot was filled with "ultra luxury cars" on Wednesday night (p.8). This is not so. I personally drive a Mazda Protege with a 1.6-liter, 4-cylinder engine. There were NO Mercedes vehicles, no BMW's, no Ferrari’s, no McLaren F1's, absolutely nothing fitting the description of "ultra luxury." There were definitely, however, some lower-end Fords, Buicks, Mazdas, and Hondas present.
But what really angered me was Mr. Olney's careless and pointless description of my Christian sisters within the youth group. He said they showed up "dressing like $3 whores" (p.8). Shame on you, sir. Do not EVER speak of my sisters that way again; you have no right to cheapen them in the eyes of people who don't even know them. Furthermore, they were not dressed as whores, but rather as respectful women. Might I remind you, too, sir, that we were attempting to reach un-churched individuals who may dress differently; to such people Christ Jesus came to preach salvation, not condemnation as you have done. Stop speaking this way against my sisters in Christ!
Mr. Olney also spoke of the young men present as not being able to use their belts properly because their pants were halfway to their knees. Once again, we were trying to reach un-churched people, and they sometimes dress differently. I was not sagging my pants; my trousers are always above the cleft of my buttocks, and I might have only been able to point out one or two young men among a large number who were sagging at all. You have used lies to criticize us and belittle us, and you therefore have caused shame for the name of Christ. Never do this again.
I might also explain a little bit about Mr. Olney's presence at the event. He had in his company three very small daughters. He was asked to step outside of the church building (but still in full view of the going-ons of the evening) not because we had no liability release forms but rather because we wished for his children not to be harmed by any debris that might separate from the Jeep. What is more, they were not of age to participate in the activities. Officers were present to ensure safety, and so they had to ask Mr. Olney to take his daughters to a place of safe refuge. This wasn't nonsensical "opulent snobbery." It was instead an action of care and conern for three very small, precious and beautiful children.
As to Steve Olney's vehicle, which he claims was vandalized during his hours of protest, we as a church had absolutely no part in its vandalism and cannot be held responsible for his choice to park it on a public street where vandalism can happen to anybody's vehicle for any number of reasons on any given day. I also wonder why he chooses not to praise one church leader I know of who approached him on the sidewalk and delivered him water.
I also have some comments regarding the inherent sagacity of donating vs. destroying such a vehicle as the black jeep. To begin, it was donated for the specific purpose of demolition. Mr. Olney also knows less of the integrity of the vehicle than he thinks he does. I am a personal friend of the donor and happen to know some things of the vehicle’s true condition. The radiator was completely shot and needed full replacement, there was a severe oil leak, and the entire inside smelled like a pack of dead wolves. To salvage such a vehicle, if possible (which I will not deny is possible) would cost a large sum of money and may not even effect a monetary gain upon sale. Also, many people who are poor or down and out cannot afford to own a gas-guzzling, sub-par vehicle that will be in need of constant maintenance. One suggested recipient of a restored Jeep was a father who works two jobs and “still can’t afford to own his own car” is a testimony in itself of the problem presented by a donated Jeep vehicle. The man still won’t be able to “own his own car” because of the insurance, gas money, repair money he will have to provide for such a vehicle. Furthermore, Jeeps are gas-guzzling beasts. Anybody who drives a Jeep vehicle is depleting ozone at a faster rate than a Honda Civic driver, and he is using great amounts of money for fuel that could be used to feed the homeless, the sick, the motherless and fatherless who roam our city streets forlorn. I’m very sorry, but I do not think Desert Springs Bible Church is the biggest and only part of the problem.
I also can’t help but speak of the message presented on Wednesday night. Mr. Reith spoke of how we sometimes feel like the Jeep, as if people are constantly beating us down, as if the world in all its mighty weight is crushing us and bruising us, demolishing us. He then went on to speak of the healing work of Christ, of how we do not have to be like the battered Jeep. Imagine if that Jeep were restored in two weeks, he said. It seems impossible doesn’t it? But Christ offers to restore us to new in such a fashion, he continued. What a beautiful message for broken and hurting mankind.
If you want to restore the Jeep now, I say go for it; we could all work together to fix what has been broken as a testimony to the healing work that God is offering mankind. Is it possible to fix this Jeep even after it has been bludgeoned? It must be!
I am ashamed at the way Mr. Olney has handled this situation. Our church has had to stop communication because at a certain point it stopped proving fruitful in any way. He has not told the truth at all times, and I resent being numbered among the “opulent,” “elitist,” and “sagging-pants” individuals of this world. Please, sir, do not ever misrepresent me in front of an innocent group that knows me not. Do not liken my sisters to whores who sell their bodies for sexual sin on the streets; NOBODY talks about my sisters that way. Do not blame us for vandalism of your vehicle in which we had no part (You can point to no man who actually did any single thing to your vehicle), and do not criticize a message that you did not even stay around to hear. All I ask is that you tell people the truth. You may take my words and throw them around as you will, you may revile me, you may begin to accuse me of imaginary ill deeds, but truth is truth and may not be manipulated by lies and the will of men. If you have any further problems, please bring them to the church, but do not gossip any more in this forum; for Paul the Apostle instructed the church at Corinth to handle such deeds within the church so that the world might see the mature power of the Christian body and family.
I have not come here to sling mud or to hurt anybody in any way. I hunger for truth, and so I have told the objective truth of this matter. Though I am a simple youth, I know the Scriptures, and I know the message of the gospel, which was taught within the walls of Desert Springs Bible Church on Wednesday night, the 12th of October. I simply praise God that some people who may never have shown up for any reason, perhaps some boys with their pants a little too low or a couple girls who wore spaghetti strap tops, came to a church to hear of the love of God, how God wants us, how God likes us, how God wants to restore us from the battered image we see before us in the mirror. Thank God for a church that is not afraid to step up and use non-conventional methods to reach the lost, un-churched youth of this day, in a bold way, with a bold message of love and restoration, not demolition, hate, and senseless violence. Thank you if you actually read this entire message. I pray you will listen to the voice of a young man who has seen the good work of God’s people at Desert Springs Bible Church.