With all the talk of Bio-diesel

[AZJeeps TJ&XJ]

Well, I didn't catch the episode, but my father did. I guess Trucks TV show had a thing on bio-diesel yesterday and all I got out of it was that the diesel they were testing it on ran better then the regular diesel. Well I decided to check out the website they had (which got me nowhere), but I did find out the name of the company that sells a complete bio diesel mixing still thingy. The price I found was "PRICE EACH: $3,995 - plus shipping & handling". From what it say this is a complete setup, all that is needed "a barrel of used fryer oil (FREE), lye (20¢/gal. bio diesel), a barrel of racing methanol (50¢ /gal. bio diesel), a barrel for your bio diesel, AC power and a water hose. " Or there is a cheaper one for $2995

So, who wants to try this out??? I don't have a diesel, but I am interested in this setup. Oh the website Trucks said was Freedom Fuel America (http://www.freedomfuelamerica.com/index.asp) and with a quick search I found out a bit more info on the setup that is mentioned which is made by FuelMeister (http://mysite.verizon.net/res21b05/biodiesel/id10.html) .

I am not sure if this was talked about on the yahoo side, as I just ignored most of the posting about the bio diesel as I saw something about politics and who knows what else. But I figured someone might find it interesting, I know I want to see that episode of Trucks now.

[Sedona Jeep School]

...I just ignored most of the posting about the bio diesel as I saw something about politics and who knows what else...
Oh, you missed one of the liveliest discussions this month! :D I was wondering when it would make its way to the BBS...

I do not have a diesel, but am very interested in this technology. We have talked about building an alternative fuel Jeep for years--anything from propane, methane, solar, wind...Maybe a group effort?

[JamesT]

That show was a re-run and when it first came out Stu comments went something like this (I am paraphrasing of course):

At $4000 with the difference in price between the biodiesal and regular diesel, it would take 1740 gallons to make back the money invested, that is just the $$. This would equate to approximately 35,800 miles of driving. Taking into account you are probably not going to carry refills with you all the time (so you would have to fill up at a station a third of the time. I believe this is a conservative number.) and approximate driving miles per year, it would take over 3 years to make back your initial investment.

Now think about how much your time is worth. You need to find a place willing to give you the oil, you have the transportation of the oil and stuff that goes along with that, you have the mixing time you have to spend and then you have to hand pump it into your truck (unless you add more expense and get an electric pump).

Miscellanous 'expenses' having a place to store the mixer and the tanks, having methanol on hand, having lye on hand, handling and storing both methanol and lye.

So let's say for argument sake you had it paid off in 4-5 years, about when you are done paying for your truck. Is/was it worth it?

[Tom Schenk]

We have talked about building an alternative fuel Jeep for years--anything from propane, methane, solar, wind


I have been kicking around the idea of converting my TJ to propane for the last couple of years. I think that the way gas prices are going I'll put a bit more effort into getting it done. It'll cost roughly $800 to convert. Propane is $1.60 gallon so it should pay for itself in roughly 60 tanks. That's about a year.

[paparonbo]

There is a biodiesel group on Yahoo similar to the "old VJC" list. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Biodiesel/. There's lots of good info over there including writeups on buiding your own converter instead of speding the $4K for the one featured on Trucks.

Ron
00 XJ
87 XJ

[danno]

What about a coop... Surely it would pay for it self 10 times quicker if 10 people went into buying the equipment together... What was 5 years is now 6 months.

[JamesT]

What about a coop... Surely it would pay for it self 10 times quicker if 10 people went into buying the equipment together... What was 5 years is now 6 months.

I could be wrong on this, someone please correct me if I am; one of the processes that the pump runs through, as I remember, takes 8 hours. If I remembered corectly, considering the other steps that are needed and I believe the batches were 20 gallons, that would probably mean you might get, running continuously, 20 gallons per day.
I am thinking that if I had to wait ten days for 20 gallons it wouldn't work, for all involved.
In addition, as with most things that end up at one persons house when a group works on a project, the person with the unit at their house is going to be doing most of the work. How do you compensate for this?

[SavageSun4x4]

I saw the show and was not impressed. First in the equation, there is a KEY word that only provides false hope at best and throwing good money after bad at worst. That word is “FREE”! I’m gonna say it and say it again, “there ain’t no free lunch” folks. Don’t believe me, stop off at your local Mickey D’s and ask them for a barrel [55 gals] of used oil, go ahead, try it. Also ask them how OFTEN you can come by for the barrel of oil.

Lye? Ohhh yea, just keep it in the cabinet with your baking soda and cans of beans, yea, sure! Anyone here ever use it? I have, kept it out in the bathroom at the end of the path back behind the house.

55 gal barrel of racing grade Methanol. Hey, its on sale this weekend at Fry’s, sets at the end of the shelves that have the with wine on them, can’t miss, it’s in 55 GAL DRUMS, just throw a couple in your basket as your grabbing a bottle or two of Caddy Coupe’ ’57 wine or some Beaujolais Yesterday.

Now when you get home fire up the old fork lift as you move those 55 gal drums around like leaves blowin in the wind and mix up a batch of good ole BD in just 10 easy steps as the website sez! [Which I noticed the website is FOR SALE].

Now I know were buds, have spanked a trail or two together and threw back a couple of cold ones, your wife is nice to my wife, our kids get along, but SORRY I hate to do this! I just am not gonna let you run a BD still next door to me. I know you’re a smart guy, but if that 55 gal drum of Racing Grade Methanol goes up, its gonna take out the whole friggin block. I suspect the city might have something to say about it too. I mean working on your Jeep is one thing, but running a filling station out the back door is another.

One last thing, soon as you run off a tank full of your juice, holler, I know a place downtown that serves free lunches… :D

[nate]

good un savage....

[AZJeeps TJ&XJ]

Like I said, I don't have a diesel, so none of this applies to me. But I am more interested in the technology and methods that can be used for cheaper fuels.

Like Don said, where and how much would each of the supplies needed come from or cost would play a VERY big factor in something like this. But, I mean a very big BUT, if someone was able to make up a setup relatively cheap, and was able to get the supplies needed, then this might be a good idea. Granted you would only be saving money if you re-fueled at home, or where ever you made and stored it. But it could be good for someone with a small business that uses a diesel for something. Again, all of this does have a lot of what-ifs, which is very disappointing.

Then again, if gas prices stay on this uphill trend, then propane is going to become an alternative. I have never liked the propane strictly setups, but the dual setup would be interesting. But i don't know about on a Jeep, as there isn't much room to have both a propane tank and gas tank, so maybe a DD.

Also, instead of going to bio, there is also the method of adding propane to your diesel. I remember hearing about a new setup that uses the comptuter to help inject it, that way you won't fry anything up. That is also a very good boost in power, but I don't know on how good it would be around town.

[SavageSun4x4]

Yes, propane does offer some hope as far as I can see...

Has anyone here wondered why they are selling do-it-yourself BD kits instead of some company doing it??? EZ, it fails to scale. Like a lot of things we do with our Jeeps. We can fab it for what appears donuts on the dollar and we can. So we decide that we can make "diff covers" for 1/10 of what some big company sells them for and we can get rich. Problem is it doesn't scale. We think that because we can grab a handful of scrap steel and weld up a belly plate that if we sold it for a $100 bucks we would be getting rich. Ask Jeep Medic about making money; he found out that things just don't scale sometimes. The rule of Economy of Scale: “the cost of a piece of production machinery would vary by the throughput raised to the 0.6 power. (According to this thumb rule, a pump that could pump 10 times as much fluid as another pump of similar design and function should cost only four times as much as the smaller pump.)”. In other words If I can make one for a $100 then I can make 100 for something much less than $100 apiece and so goes the rule. BUT it doesn’t always hold true.

My buddy, Joesheet the Ragman who owns the local hamburger ‘n fires joints, Joesheet's Choke’n Puke, told me I could have all of his fry grease. We wheel together and I’ll fab up some part for his Jeep and we have been known to hoist a few brewskis over at the Dew Drop Inn together and I get it for free. So here I am cooking BD and pouring it down the throat of my SUV that used to have a Belch-Fire V8 in it. I jerked a diesel out of cab-over Pete and stuffed in my Aqua Kia SUV.

Anyhow, I went from 9 mpg to over 40 mpg on the BD stuff. Sure, it smells like rancid French frys as I go down the road but that’s the guy’s problem behind me. Some jerkoff pulled me over on it and threatened to beat my butt but I just told him it was a free lunch and to sit back and enjoy it.

Now peanut gallery here comes the RUB. We can’t all do what I did, unless everybody goes on a 3 meal a day French fry and onion ring diet. You see there just is not enough of this greasy crap around. That’s why some big company hasn’t jumped on this like a rot toothed hooker on a box of tootsie rolls getting ready for payday Friday nite.

You see some things just don’t scale real well. Even if it did, where would all that grease come from? Plus now your in business to sell at a profit, think ole Joesheet the Ragman is gonna start givin away that rancid grease…don’t count on it, cause “ther ain’t no free lunch”. :D

[rvisokey]

Actually... there are a few companies that make BioDiesel. Even rock stars make it: http://www.wnbiodiesel.com. However they use corn by-product and not the local fast-food shop to get the oil.

I have a friend in Queen Creek that runs Bio. He co-ops with 2 other people in his neighborhood and they built their own setup. For them, it works out, great but they do admit it is a LOT of work. They figure right now they are running at about $.90 a gallon.

[JamesT]

After Don's comments I was thinking about that: how much would a raw corn or grain oil be at the purities levels needed? In addition, if you took away the farmer's government subsidies they get we might even win double. Of course then the farmers, would probably turn into their own 'OPEC' (considering you would have to get the oil and the methanol from them) and diesel owners would be at their mercy.

[katvans]

:D

I found this on one of my Truck Camper Forums.

Direct from Willie Nelson, a noted musician and tax evader.

http://www.wnbiodiesel.com/services.html

I do not endorse this site nor have I read it all.

Rich (still up the creek) :D

[SavageSun4x4]

I spent some time reading and following the "money" on this. I must say something has a rancid odor about it and its not French fry oil.

[rvisokey]

Biodiesel savings is just like the hybrid car savings.

Sure hybrids get OK gas mileage. I say OK and not great because what they 'claim' to get and what they 'really get' are not even close :( . So rather than a standard Honda Accord you go and get a Hybrid Honda. If you compare your cost savings... you do save yourself some money. Granted, you only have to wait 5+ years to recoup your costs from the fuel savings. Even after 5 years your only save about $100/year but to some $ is $. :rolleyes:

With a hybrid/Biodiesel you make all the tree huggers very happy. Pat yourself on the back for saving a little slice of the earth. Your making it smell like burnt hash-browns but saving it none the less :)

[SavageSun4x4]

Hybrids: What I find and have the most problem with is that's it all new technology and its evoloving. What is under the hood today might not be there tomorrow as new and better gets developed.

We have some pretty sharp wrenches on the board. Wonder how many of them can fix the complicated gas/electric/battery systems that are on the streets and being developed.

Save $100's on gas only to spend $1000's on repairs down the road. I wouldn't buy a out of warranty hybrid if you paid me. And I suspect that selling one out of warranty is close to giving it away.

[Sedona Jeep School]

Just an observation--There seem to be two different streams of thought running here:
1) Those who are interested in a cheaper fuel;
2) Those who are interested in a renewable energy source, which may or may not be cheaper.

In the short term, our best bet is to find more efficient systems. It is hybrids today, it was fuel injection in the 70's--How many of you remember that none of us trusted that new-fangled technology back then? I remember thinking--"But how do you adjust the dang thing?" Innovation takes a lot of trial and error--that is something us humans do well (especially the error part!)

In the long term, it is about using NON-petroleum energy, because:
1) Petroleum will run out someday;
2) People who hate us control most of the petroleum.

As good American consumers, we are used to having things cheap, fast, and easy. With any form of energy, there is some trade-off. As is often said: THERE ARE NO FREE LUNCHES! Ha-ha-ha-ha! :D

[SavageSun4x4]

Just an observation--There seem to be two different streams of thought running here:
1) Those who are interested in a cheaper fuel;
2) Those who are interested in a renewable energy source, which may or may not be cheaper.

In the short term, our best bet is to find more efficient systems. It is hybrids today, it was fuel injection in the 70's--How many of you remember that none of us trusted that new-fangled technology back then? I remember thinking--"But how do you adjust the dang thing?" Innovation takes a lot of trial and error--that is something us humans do well (especially the error part!)

In the long term, it is about using NON-petroleum energy, because:
1) Petroleum will run out someday;
2) People who hate us control most of the petroleum.

As good American consumers, we are used to having things cheap, fast, and easy. With any form of energy, there is some trade-off. As is often said: THERE ARE NO FREE LUNCHES! Ha-ha-ha-ha! :D
As always Nena offers sage thought.

If I want a new starter or alternator, engine or battery I have many sources. From JC Whitney to DC Jeep and Bosh, from $39.95 to $3995 and everywhere in between.

Having been a computer architect and engineer, I know and under stand complex. I have led the development of systems costing many millions of dollars and what I know is that in my world. Development-acquisition cost X 7 is the out-year maintenance cost. That is not an appealing proposition to the consumer. Meaning your $30k car will cost $210k for maintenance after you pay for it.

Additionally, hybrid technology is evolving. The management system in use on your LuckyStar RiceGrinder EconoBox may or may not be in use on next years model.

From my vantage point where we need to go is to get off petro and I wish I had an answer as too how and what.

Insofar as the future, I see it as two things. Diesel and gasoline:
Diesel has many ponies under its blanket if we put our efforts to it. One problem with diesel has been driveline issues. So for autos its never really caught on it like it could or should. We have solved those problems and now we just need to pour our efforts into the diesel technology itself. But the rules are changed as compared to what they have been. We now want speed, acceleration not hauling, and pulling power.

Gasoline: Gasoline has been demonized by the greenies to the point that we are failing to see its potential. Its now clean, we have almost a 100% burn, its powerful and we can achieve very high mileage with blistering acceleration and speed. When I sold my Z06 Corvette its lifetime on board fuel average was 22.3 and believe me, I drove it as if it was a rental car I stole from the Soprano’s. It was common to pull 28.x mpg at avg speeds of 80+ mph on trips to and from Miami-Dallas. In speaking with some Corvette engineers at the development facility, they indicated they feel they can achieve 35 mpg and 500+ hp. This is in an engine that was basicly developed in 1954. BUT its not your everyday car engine and engine cost is quite high.

So I am putting my money on Diesel for now.

Then lets figure out how we get off the petrol teat. Gonna take folks much smarter than me.

[Twist&Shout]

I wish all the alternative fuels would work and more importantly be used by people. Then maybe gasoling price would go down due to lack of interest :D

[rvisokey]

I am working on a solution. Right now it's just a prototype but I'm getting close.

http://www.beaconsfieldhigh.bucks.sch.uk/images/openeve2002/Red%20Bull%20skateboard.jpg

[SavageSun4x4]

Too tell you the truth I have a solution. I've been hesitant to let this tiger loose on the marketplace but I guess this is as good a time as any.

Put 16" wheels on the rear of your car and 15" on the front. The result is your driving down hill all the time. If you want to really boost your mileage, put 14" wheels on the front, WOW, gas mileage out the roof :D

[FlexyXJ]

Bio-Diesel is pure EVIL. PERIOD. All you have to do is look at the microbial growth that is induced with heat, moisture and a natural oil product. All of the owners of ANY diesel engine with a mechanical pump (i.e. Bosch P7100, Rochester AV7455, ANY of the DETROIT pumps, including the 6,8,12v-92, 1000-2500 MTU pumps, Ford "roto-vane", Cat 3206/8 ) Will notice that the Manufacturer DOES NOT reccommend Bio-Diesel just due to the fact that the microbial growth is far more prevalent in a natural based oil than a petroleum based product. Bio- diesel is a VERY Hydroscopic fuel, so you will be changing your fuel/water seperators/filters/Raycors almost 3 times as often. Bio-diesel also has a LOWER BTU output that GASOLINE, meaning it makes LESS heat per gallon, thus making it less efficiant of a fuel. Thats one of the great things of Diesel fuel is its VERY HIGH BTU per gallon. Thats why they get such good mileage per gallon. (unless you are Woody :D ) Dont get me wrong, There is also microbial growth in normal fuel BUT its nowhere close to that of Bio-diesel. One of the things my dad has started doing in the Marine industry is "Fuel polishing" Which is a process that removes, filters and treats diesel fuel in the marine industry. It runs the fuel through 2 seires mounted, 10ppm RAYCOR filters than back into the tank. This problem is so prevalent in the marine industry its just crazy. Everything from 30 gallon sail boats to 80' Hatteras yachts, its a problem. Take for example, a 80' Hatteras Sky Lounge holds 3800 gallons of fuel. It will consume 1 gallon per NM. (Nautical mile) at crusing speed of 21 knots @ 1875 RPM with twin 1500 HP MTU's. Thats about 3000 miles figuring the fuel use from the Westerbeke Gen set also. Many boaters just dont go on 3000 mile cruises, so now you have all of that fuel GROWING. It just sits there for as long as 3 years. It gets pretty nasty with a black gelationous growth. So instead of disposing of it, polish it. NOW IMAGINE BIO-DIESEL IN THIS ENVIROMENT. YOU WONT EVER SEE IT.


Joe
Absolute Offroad

[FlexyXJ]

That show was a re-run and when it first came out Stu comments went something like this (I am paraphrasing of course):

At $4000 with the difference in price between the biodiesal and regular diesel, it would take 1740 gallons to make back the money invested, that is just the $$. This would equate to approximately 35,800 miles of driving. Taking into account you are probably not going to carry refills with you all the time (so you would have to fill up at a station a third of the time. I believe this is a conservative number.) and approximate driving miles per year, it would take over 3 years to make back your initial investment.

Now think about how much your time is worth. You need to find a place willing to give you the oil, you have the transportation of the oil and stuff that goes along with that, you have the mixing time you have to spend and then you have to hand pump it into your truck (unless you add more expense and get an electric pump).

Miscellanous 'expenses' having a place to store the mixer and the tanks, having methanol on hand, having lye on hand, handling and storing both methanol and lye.

So let's say for argument sake you had it paid off in 4-5 years, about when you are done paying for your truck. Is/was it worth it?


Hmmmm Has anyone realized that these are the same things that you cook/make METHAMPHETAMINE with???


Joe
Absolute Offroad

[FlexyXJ]

:D

I found this on one of my Truck Camper Forums.

Direct from Willie Nelson, a noted musician and tax evader.

http://www.wnbiodiesel.com/services.html

I do not endorse this site nor have I read it all.

Rich (still up the creek) :D


Hmmm yet ANOTHER snafu that no one thinks of (other than Semi truck owner/operators) The ABove ground fuel storage here in AZ.... Think about it...HEAT causes fuel to expand, right???? So lets sit 5000 gallons of fuel in a STEEL tank in the AZ heat. Now we can pump it out.....1 gallon at say, 150 degrees is going to cool and become about .80 gallons ( figured by using specific gravity vs. Temp) Hmmmm lost 2/10ths of a gallon...not REALLY but the station owner benifits from it..... :rolleyes:



Joe
Absolute Offroad

[FlexyXJ]

Why has this thread died???? It was good discussion......BTT


Joe

[JamesT]

Why has this thread died???? It was good discussion......BTT


Joe


You know, I bet this would work out good for someone like you, if the initial costs could be cut. You have your own shop, a bit of time and storage, and you are smart enough to make the blend work.

There it hasn't died yet.

[FlexyXJ]

You know, I bet this would work out good for someone like you, if the initial costs could be cut. You have your own shop, a bit of time and storage, and you are smart enough to make the blend work.

There it hasn't died yet.


LOL, Thanks for the bone, James...:D But did you read my posts about B/D??? I would not put it in my lawnmower...(if it was diesel that is..) I would be interested in some intellegent aruments about it...:D Besides, if I did have the components to make B/D and had the time, It would be better $$ to cook meth right??? Same ingredients, and in STOCK!!!!:D


Joe

[paparonbo]

Ok, I'll bite.

I have been considering buying a diesel in a few years (gotta get the Jeep paid off first). I was all for BD until I heard that Ford will void your warranty if you run anything more than B5 (5% biodiesel and 95% regular)in their engine. Now I'm a little gunshy about voiding the warranty on a brand new $40k vehicle. If I try it, maybe I'll start in something older I won't have to continue paying on if it gets gummed up. The concept for BD is great, I would love for the demand for oil to be reduced and the middle east to become less important in the world. Then when it becomes unstable we won't be starved for their only real export.

Joe, if I brought you a diesel to work on that was running BD, would you refuse to open it up in case it released the "evil" spirits??:D :D If/when I do get a diesel rig I need find a good mechanic that will work on it.

Ron
00 XJ
87 XJ

[FlexyXJ]

Ok, I'll bite.

I have been considering buying a diesel in a few years (gotta get the Jeep paid off first). I was all for BD until I heard that Ford will void your warranty if you run anything more than B5 (5% biodiesel and 95% regular)in their engine. Now I'm a little gunshy about voiding the warranty on a brand new $40k vehicle. If I try it, maybe I'll start in something older I won't have to continue paying on if it gets gummed up. The concept for BD is great, I would love for the demand for oil to be reduced and the middle east to become less important in the world. Then when it becomes unstable we won't be starved for their only real export.

Joe, if I brought you a diesel to work on that was running BD, would you refuse to open it up in case it released the "evil" spirits??:D :D If/when I do get a diesel rig I need find a good mechanic that will work on it.

Ron
00 XJ
87 XJ


Ron, I have no problem working on ANY diesel as long as its NOT hackles rig...:D (long story) I mean there are alternatives for using BD but you just have to prepare the truck to use it. That means VERY close maint on all of the fuel system, water seperation system and the intake system. (Most consumers cant even remember to check thier engine oil, or tire pressure) One of the major things to moniter with bio is the fuel/water seperation. Also, remember bio also has less BTU output per gallon than regular diesel fuel, hence the loss of power, and reduced MPG. Just remember, all of the things that you have to do to make a vehicle "bio friendly" will cost almost 3k-4k.....wheres the savings here???:confused:


Joe
Absolute Offroad

[paparonbo]

I have heard that BD runs better than regular, most notably it burns more completely and provides better lubrication so the engine lasts longer. Thats gotta count for something?

The reasons I dig Bio have less to do with saving cash right away and more to do with "growing our own" and paying Jim Bob in Nebraska to grow the plants instead of paying Abdul in Saudi/Iran/Iraq etc. The Do-It-Yourself idea sounds like a fun hobby, but realisticly isn't going to make much of a dent.

I guess that BD fits into my perfect world where the US is self-reliant, nobody gets in over their head in debt, I don't have to pay for electricity because I have solar panels on the roof, I have a beer tree in the backyard, the grass mows itself in the summer, all of my neighbors are cool swimsuit models, and I can do all of the work on my Jeep myself.
Sadly, I don't live in that world but on the bright side there people here that make money by me paying APS, when I need more than an oil change I can take my junk to you, and I get to keep working for the evil empire (credit card company). Now I just need to work on that beer tree.

Ron
00 XJ
87 XJ

[danno]

Now I'm a little gunshy about voiding the warranty on a brand new $40k vehicle. If I try it, maybe I'll start in something older I won't have to continue paying on if it gets gummed up.

Which is exactly why I made my most recent purchase... 1985 Mercedes Benz 300D Turbo. 2000 bucks.

I have been running SVO (Straight Veggie Oil) for the past two months as an experiment preparing to start using WVO (Waste Veggie Oil) without any problems and getting 25-30 mpg in doing so. The SVO that I am using is Soybean cooking oil (new) which I get from Costco in 5 gallon jugs. It is brand new virgin oil so there is no filtering required before use and with the weather as warm as it has been I have not had to pre-heat the oil before use.

The Mercedes injection pumps are Bosch inline design which is much more forgiving than the newer rotary or electronic pumps in newer vehicles. I would not recommend running any Veggie Oils in newer diesels, especially ones with rotary pumps or direct injection.

So far the experiment has been quite a success. With the price of diesel exceeding 3.00 per gallon, it has actually been cheaper for me to run Soy than Dino fuel. In addition, good old Bob from Nebraska is benefiting as well.

Just a brief insight into my perspective in case anyone is interested.

[Beastmaster]

For those of you who are interested in getting a BioDiesel Co-Op together, there will be a meet and greet this coming Tuesday, September 13th at 7pm.

Unlimited Coffee
741 E Glendale
Phoenix, AZ 85021

Posted on the Yahoo! phxbiodieselcoop message board.

[SavageSun4x4]

For those of you who are interested in getting a BioDiesel Co-Op together, there will be a meet and greet this coming Tuesday, September 13th at 7pm.

Unlimited Coffee
741 E Glendale
Phoenix, AZ 85021

Posted on the Yahoo! phxbiodieselcoop message board.

Think your meeting at the wrong place. It ought to be over at "Granny's Greasy Spoon and BioDiesel in Your Gut, Cafe". As Granny sez "my food is so greasy, you eat now and pee in your tank later".

[Beastmaster]

I agree. But the organizers of this Co-Op seem to like meeting at this joint.

[Linda]

Dang! Wrong side of the world and on a bad day!
Maybe next time. I am kind of interested in BD.