Fees versus permits?

[Sedona Jeep School]

I was having a lively discussion with a Sierra Club member (some of you know him) about the Red Rock Pass and other user fee areas. He says that the Sierra Club's stance on fees is that there should only be fees for developed facilities, like campgrounds and visitor centers, but not just for parking areas with bathrooms at trailheads. They do, however, support requiring a (free) permit for using secondary trails. Examples of secondary trails are unmaintained ("secondary") roads and/or hiking trails into wilderness areas. FYI, the main definition of OHV to them means ATV's--that is the element of motorized travel with which they have the biggest beef right now.

This raises a question for the group: Is this a worthy compromise? Many of us already pay $65/year for a park pass, $15/year for a state land permit, and $X for whatever "developed facilities" we use. Would it be a fair "price to pay" to fill out a form for your "free" public land trail permit?

FYI: On Forest Service trails, roads with 3-digit numbers require street-legal vehicles, while roads with 4-digit numbers (secondary roads) do not. Interestingly, in Sedona, most of the main access roads are, of course, 3-digit roads. But, Broken Arrow (FR 179F) is a 3-digit road (street-legal only), while Soldier Pass (FR 9600) and Diamondback Gulch (FR 9513) are 4-digit roads. :confused: So that means that if permits were required for secondary trails, we could still run Broken Arrow without papers. (When you say "papers" you have to use a Russian accent :D )

Gentlemen, start your engines...

[SavageSun4x4]

If its free then why do I need a pass or permit.

Nena, you know where I stand on free. But just to say it again "there ain't no free lunch". That said, anytime its free, then they can TAKE IT AWAY FROM YOU! So what is there to scream about? Sierra clubers are not dumb, they are smart and cunning. You better beieve they want it to be free for sooner or later it can be taken away. BUT have people pay for it then its not easy to take away, we now have ownership, votership and lots of folks to write and call.

All governments suck up money like a Hoover with a supercharged V8. And they spend money like a x wife with your credit card.

I want to pay, BLM, ABC, NPS, NFS, the ZOO every-friggin-thing except the IRS. I say gett'um hooked on the $ like an addict needs a needle.

[Sedona Jeep School]

True. I was thinking that the "price" was taking the time to go down and fill out the paperwork. That, alone, adds accountability and feeling of responsibility to the permittee. But, fees add a feeling of responsibility on the part of the permitter. Hmmm.

I know we have dabbled in this topic recently, but I am trying to wrap my brain around this for an upcoming project.

Can anyone tell me about this Bulldog Canyon? I haven't been there, but I understand that a permit is required. How much? How easy? What is the history which precipitated the initiation of the permit process?

Enforcement is another issue. They can require permits for whatever they want, but if they are not enforced, who cares? What difference does it make, except pushing a pile of paperwork across someone's desk? Thoughts on enforcement?

[SavageSun4x4]

True. I was thinking that the "price" was taking the time to go down and fill out the paperwork. That, alone, adds accountability and feeling of responsibility to the permittee. But, fees add a feeling of responsibility on the part of the permitter. Hmmm.


How does a enforcement officer give a ticket to someone for being there without a permit when its not illegal to be there. You just tell'um "duh, I didn't know that officer, I'll get one Monday." As opposed to say getting a permit to use the local park for your company get together. That serves the purpose of "reserving" the space, BBQ pits,, parking etc, and that's ok, its limited in the space available.

When its free is it really worth having?

[Linda]

To access Bulldog Canyon you need a permit. The permit is free, but you have to show up in person during office hours. The Tonto Office used to have banker's hours, but I think that has changed. The permit is good for 6 months. You get a list of combination lock numbers. The FS resets the combos each month. Part of the deal is you sign an agreement that you will stay on designated trails, pick up after yourself, and be a responsible citizen.

Bulldog Canyon abutts Usery Mtn State Park. These two areas share a hiking/mountain biking trail.

What caused the permit for this area?. The Bulldog Canyon has access to the Salt River and a bunch of hills were play hills (kind of like the Sycamore Creek area). Way back when, when the area had open access this was a party area and 4-wheelers, dirt bikers, and ATVers literally tore up and trashed the area. Kind of like the Rolls OHV area on the north side of Saquaro Lake. To top it off, endangered mountain goats were reintroduced into the area some time back. There is a nice herd of them out there now, but they hang out near the lake more than they do in Bulldog Canyon. Way back when I was in high school, the area also had a herd of wild horses. I think they are gone now. I think they came off the Ft. McDowell Indian Reservation.

Until recently, the area around Bulldog, outside the Tonto bounadaries, was Az State Trust Land and private ranch land. There was a AZG&F study area just south of there that I thought was going to eventually become part of Usery Mtn State Park, but it didn't. It became a housing development instead. In fact, homes are now on the edges of the park and the Tonto National Forest in that area. The people who live in that area are starting to fuss about the Rio Salado Sportsmans Club and the impromptu shooting ranges in Bulldog Canyon. They are also starting to complain about not being able to wander (hike) the canyon without having to jump out of the way of racing bikes, ATVs, and 4x4s.

So far, the FS has been really good about motorized use of Bulldog. They have stepped up patrols, but I think it's just a matter of time before we lose it. The desert area west of Bulldog was closed a few years back. That area had some great short trails with scenic views, but it was turned into a unofficial dump by people too lazy to take their trash to the local landfill.

FYI. Bulldog is part of the Great Western Trail. The CopperState 4-Wheelers adopted the canyon trail, but I don't think they have anything to do with it anymore. Although it isn't a challenging trail, it would be a good adopt-a-trail for a 4WD club.

[SavageSun4x4]

Linda, has given a instance where a free permit makes some sense. It is a controlled acess area with a lot of patroling.

Linda also mentioned that at one time it had free access and the area was trashed. You may not eliminate, but you can regulate by charging a fee. The moment you charge a fee you begin to eliminate access by those who are only there because its free. Best example of this is federal housing, put them in there for free and they trash the place until its no longer livable. Of course the feds just build another one. While we are on that subject: Did you know that we, us have spent over $1 Trillion dollars on welfare and all we have to show for it is more people of welfare.

Kinda like us guys used to say about marriage: Why buy the cow when the milk is free.

[Sedona Jeep School]

Linda, Thank you so much for taking the time to give me the whole story. That was exactly what I was looking for. And the situation sounds very consistent with other circumstances. Unfortuneately, it seems that it is our state trust land which gives us the biggest grief.

The key is enforcement. If the permit cost $, could it be directed to enforcement? My understanding is yes. In fact, the main reason that these permits do not cost $ is because it does OBLIGATE the agency to some service. They would be happy to have the $, though. There's the connection, Don! The question is: How much of a fee does it take to get them hooked?

With regard to the adopt-a-trail program, it has been suspended indefinitely, at least as far as USFS goes. I have not received a full explanation as to why--might make for an interesting inquiry.

Don, with regard to the free milk comment: a wise man once told me that there are no free lunches. Believe me, that "free" milk DOES come with a price! :D

[Dave@desertfab.com]

An OHV liscense, similar to a Fishing liscenes would be prudent in my opinion.
And obtaining it online or in the local sporting goods department of your favorite store would make it simple... $25.00 a year and you get BLM, STL, and USFS land use permit w a sticker to add to your plate. Game and Fish, Sheriff's and Forest rangers split the enforcement duties..

Simple.. Yet effective..

Didn't I mention this to the BLM at the last meeting ?? I know a few of us were there.. :)

[SavageSun4x4]

Linda, Thank you so much for taking the time to give me the whole story. That was exactly what I was looking for. And the situation sounds very consistent with other circumstances. Unfortuneately, it seems that it is our state trust land which gives us the biggest grief.

The key is enforcement. If the permit cost $, could it be directed to enforcement? My understanding is yes. In fact, the main reason that these permits do not cost $ is because it does OBLIGATE the agency to some service. They would be happy to have the $, though. There's the connection, Don! The question is: How much of a fee does it take to get them hooked?

With regard to the adopt-a-trail program, it has been suspended indefinitely, at least as far as USFS goes. I have not received a full explanation as to why--might make for an interesting inquiry.

Don, with regard to the free milk comment: a wise man once told me that there are no free lunches. Believe me, that "free" milk DOES come with a price! :D
Nena, 20 years of being single taught me that there are no free lunches and buying the cow was often cheaper than running around the pasture trying to get a bucket of milk.

Which reminds me: When I was a little kids and staying at my grandmothers place I would go out with her to milk in the morining's. For some reason I like that big stainless steel bucket. She died in the 60's and left me that bucket which I still have to this day... :D

[Hackle]

Number 1: A Copper Sticker for OHV is in the works right now. It will include the State Land Permit. All the details are not worked out yet.

Nina the greenies are only after the ATV's NOW. It is divide and conquer. Once they cut out all the ATV's we are a smaller number to fight back. Just take one group at a time. Mountain bikers and Horse users are not aware that they are on the list to get rid of also. I hope they do not figure it out to late. As they need to help us keep trails and land open.
Jim F.

[azdesertrhino]

Nina the greenies are only after the ATV's NOW. It is divide and conquer. Once they cut out all the ATV's we are a smaller number to fight back. Just take one group at a time. Mountain bikers and Horse users are not aware that they are on the list to get rid of also. I hope they do not figure it out to late. As they need to help us keep trails and land open.
Jim F.

Just an old quote I remembered and dug out, adapted to our scenario.

First they came for the ATV riders
and I did not speak out
because I was not a ATV Rider.
Then they came for the dirt bike riders
and I did not speak out
because I was not a dirt bike rider.
Then they came for the Jeepers
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jeeper.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

:(

[1BLKJP]

I'm sorry to butt in here, but my girl and I want to go camping in Sedona this weekend, and run Broken Arrow. What passes/permits will I need for this trip...sounds like there are a couple different ones out there...

Oh yea, Nena, camping suggestions???

Sorry for before. I hadn't noticed your other thread in General.

http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?t=9347