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View Full Version : White Tanks Officially closed.



LOST TJ
07-17-2005, 04:37 PM
This morning 7-17-05 I went out the White Tanks off of Watson to run some washes. After running Appetizer and pulling up onto the main dirt road to head toward Tax n Firebird i was signaled to stop by a unmarked black suburban. Out gets two Sherrifs and asked me if i was there to shoot. I told them no. I was here to wheel. He tells me the whole area is closed now. I asked why and he said all the land has been bought around there and with the houses going up the area is closed. He said straight out "mainly due to the shooting" But it is closed to all. You are not even allowed to hike out there. Then made me turn around and leave. There are still no signs but he said they will be up shortly. I have been hearing they "might" shut the area down but now it seems it is closed for sure. Sad, but now true.......

Hackle
07-17-2005, 04:45 PM
This is State Land and BLM Land and I am not aware of a State Land Sale in that area and I know BLM has not traded the area in the middle of doing RMP plans. I will look into this give me a week or two as getting answers from the Government is very slow.
Jim F. BTW I am glad it is closed to all as it will give us more people to raise heck and get it reopened.

LOST TJ
07-17-2005, 04:48 PM
I don't know how to help but if you need some or have advice how to help, let me know. That place is awesome out there and i would love to wheel there again someday.

Hackle
07-17-2005, 04:56 PM
If I need anything I will contact you. I hope this helps make the point that we need more people to show up at the meetings and write more letters that I and others post. It is never important until it hits your back yard?
Jim F.

RokkCrawler
07-17-2005, 05:39 PM
I guess my question is were there ANY meetings about this area and if not WHY ? I read all of the Yahoo VJC notices of meetings and I show up when ever I can. I do not recall any meetings about this area or closures specifically or even mentioned in passing. I do remember at the Sharky BBQ and run in 2003 there were a few "modular" type houses going up in the area and someone saying that some day soon there would be houses everywhere. The houses there now are not modular, they are nice stick built 2 story homes, and lots of them. I really question the motives of the sheriffs dept to patrol land that is NOT posted and if it is govt land what gives them the right to control it in the 1st place. To me is sounds like the neighborhood has hired some off duty deputies to patrol and evict when quite possibly they do not have the authority to do so.

bgwhtjp33
07-17-2005, 06:32 PM
I was out there sat. night, didn't get stoped, but lots of gun fire in distance. FULL auto gun fire also. Sounded from Miller Rd. :mad:

Antman
07-17-2005, 06:34 PM
To me is sounds like the neighborhood has hired some off duty deputies to patrol and evict when quite possibly they do not have the authority to do so.


Bingo!! I think the same way. Were they in uniform? Really doesnt matter as I think they can use their uniforms for off duty work too.

Rock Rat
07-17-2005, 07:17 PM
If it is indeed privately owned and the owner can shell out the cash to hire deputies to give notice not to trespass that is just as legit as posting signs. It seems the key issue is the gunfire, but I suppose they can't play favorites...


I guess my question is were there ANY meetings about this area and if not WHY ? I read all of the Yahoo VJC notices of meetings and I show up when ever I can. I do not recall any meetings about this area or closures specifically or even mentioned in passing. I do remember at the Sharky BBQ and run in 2003 there were a few "modular" type houses going up in the area and someone saying that some day soon there would be houses everywhere. The houses there now are not modular, they are nice stick built 2 story homes, and lots of them. I really question the motives of the sheriffs dept to patrol land that is NOT posted and if it is govt land what gives them the right to control it in the 1st place. To me is sounds like the neighborhood has hired some off duty deputies to patrol and evict when quite possibly they do not have the authority to do so.

Triple-XJ
07-17-2005, 07:54 PM
This is State Land and BLM Land and I am not aware of a State Land Sale in that area and I know BLM has not traded the area in the middle of doing RMP plans. I will look into this give me a week or two as getting answers from the Government is very slow.
Jim F. BTW I am glad it is closed to all as it will give us more people to raise heck and get it reopened.


Thanks Jim,

PM me if I could help.

LOST TJ
07-17-2005, 07:59 PM
Were they in uniform?
They were MCS. Uniforms, Guns and Radios. There must have been a few more around the area. They were talking back n forth and they passed on my info to someonelse. I am assuming to another set of sheriffs to see if i came in another way.

nate
07-17-2005, 09:51 PM
I agree with closing down the area to shooters....people out there get stupid and it is too close to houses. As far as wheeling goes....that sux. Sorry to hear that, if i still lived out that way i would help out. good luck.

Flexy
07-17-2005, 11:01 PM
Everyone here seems SURPRISED. How many of the people who responded to this post have actually been at a land use meeting in the last year???? As for a private property owner hiring MCSO deputys, It is possible. But it would not happen unless it was the true property owners that did it. MCSO isn't going to "just" go out there and do vigilante type patrols. I, Myself really never enjoyed the White Tanks for wheeling, since I grew up out there, But it does not mean that it does not piss me off that its closed. This is the beginning of the end to all of our trails unless WE do something about it. I urge EVERYONE to get to a land use meeting, even if its not for "there" area. This is how it all starts people, and its up to us to stop it. This means everything from clean ups, to staying on trails and not "trailblazing" and making bypasses 'cause its too hard for certain rigs, picking up others trash ( I say others trash, because whoever you say "lets pick up trash" to, its always "not my trash") and speaking up to others who are doing what you see as things that will close OUR lands.


Joe
Absolute Offroad

Flexy
07-17-2005, 11:05 PM
I agree with closing down the area to shooters....people out there get stupid and it is too close to houses. As far as wheeling goes....that sux. Sorry to hear that, if i still lived out that way i would help out. good luck.

Sorry if I offend you but agreeing with closing to shooters is just ignorant. In their eyes, its "those rednecks with 4x4's that tear everything up" Because. I guarantee you, if you were to ask any shooter if they picked up there trash, they would say "Yes, of course" Land closeure is BAD. Period. Even if WE dont agree with the shooters (Lord knows I DONT) We should ALL be able to use our lands.

Stepping off soap box, donning flame suit. Feel free to flame me for my opinions if you like..... :)


Joe

AZXJ
07-17-2005, 11:31 PM
Did you question the MCSO's ?? Just because one section of property is closed off due to private ownership (IE: the large dune) doesn't mean that the BLM and state trust lands are closed.. I suggest you folks that run this area be prepaired when you enter off of Watson. Maps, topo quads and conformation from the BLM and State trust that the area is open. Then you can prove on the spot to them that you are in the right. if they give you shiznit tell them you want to speak with thier supervisor.. Ultimately working together with BLM, state trust, and local Rosco P coletrain's will help the situation, I'd also suggest maybe scheduling another cleanup in the area with Sate trust and BLM.. This may show them that we are serious about keeping the area open...

Having personally scheduled cleanups in August 3 years in a row and spending countless hours in the area cleaning up other peoples crap and only having limited turnout was very dissapointing.. The folks that showed busted thier asses and claned up tons of trash and I still thank them.. We need more participation in these types of events.. If you wheel anywhere in this state every spot should be of importance to you... EVERY SPOT !!!! Get off your asses and get involved.......................................... . Oh, and I don't care if I offend anyone.. If you get butt hurt over loosing a trail and don't do squat about it you have nothing to ***** about.. If you busted your *** to keep it open and it got closed to lack of involvement, then I say ***** away...

end of Rant.
DaveO 480-720-1041

jeepsonly
07-18-2005, 09:43 AM
Someone needs to find out our legal boundaries here and bringing maps is a good idea. MCSO is supposed to be enforcing no-trespassing on "posted" private and government property. Law enforcement has been wrong before and they may be covering a larger area than intended. Do some research, bring it with you and above all - BE NICE.

Sandee - do you know anything about this?

Stomper
07-18-2005, 09:52 AM
Wow!! Joe you are right about everyone being surprised. Even Hackle seems surprised and Sandee might be also. If there has been no official notice given to anyone this all seems sudden and suspect. If it is BLM and state land, and as has been stated before the BLM and state have not closed or sold it, then maybe no one has explained to the MCSO boys and girls what areas they should be patrolling.

Take care,

S

roger
07-18-2005, 10:15 AM
It seems to me that the MCSO Sheriffs should know just as much about the different boundaries as you or I are expected to know when we're out wheeling. Ask them to show you their maps and to identify in detail the closures they are enforcing. Of course, don't sound like a wise guy. :D Maybe it will turn out that they're not really enforcing closures on State or BLM lands. In that case, heading north on Watson Road and then heading northwest from the 90-degree right turn on Watson Road should still be legal as I believe that dumps you right onto State or BLM land.

-Roger

RufftyTuffty
07-18-2005, 10:20 AM
Simple econmics...it will never be stopped as long as Phx metro continues to grow at such a rate.

Wheelin' will need to move further out to new areas...as your old wheelin turf will be the next strip mall.

We need to secure areas well outside the grow ring for the next decade...so how far is that?...who knows.

My 2c worth,
Mike

jeepsonly
07-18-2005, 10:32 AM
20 million residents in Maricopa County by 2020 is the last prediction I saw. We have around 4 million now I believe. That's a pretty big ring, I'd imagine.

Wheeling trip to Holbrook anyone? :)

paparonbo
07-18-2005, 11:46 AM
Land closeure is BAD. Period. Even if WE dont agree with the shooters (Lord knows I DONT) We should ALL be able to use our lands.
Joe
I agree that any land closure is bad, but I think that the shooters often make more of a problem than we do. We might leave some trash around but how often do you see a 4x4 drag a refridgerator or water heater out in the desert and abandon it unless they are shooting it up first. If our people get careless and the absolute worst happens it may result in a driver or passenger getting injured or dying. When the shooters out there get careless and the worst happens someone completely innocent gets hurt or killed. I bet we have all heard gunfire waaaay too close for comfort when we were out wheeling.

I am not against shooting in any way, I just really have a problem with some of the people who go to the closest location outside city limits, leave a HUGE mess, and don't practice some basic safe shooting habits. Out at Table Mesa I saw some peole setting up to shoot ACROSS the main road towards Terminator etc.

One of the big problems is distinguishing ourselves from the yahoos out there. Joe is right that the public doesn't see the difference between our groups and others. There, I feel better now :)

Ron
00 XJ
87 XJ

nate
07-18-2005, 12:14 PM
Sorry if I offend you but agreeing with closing to shooters is just ignorant. In their eyes, its "those rednecks with 4x4's that tear everything up" Because. I guarantee you, if you were to ask any shooter if they picked up there trash, they would say "Yes, of course" Land closeure is BAD. Period. Even if WE dont agree with the shooters (Lord knows I DONT) We should ALL be able to use our lands.

Stepping off soap box, donning flame suit. Feel free to flame me for my opinions if you like..... :)


Joe

no offence taken...i agree all land closures suk. I am also an avid bow, and rifle hunter and at times shooter, But "IMO", look at the land and the majority of the people that go there. you cant run one wash, turn a corner or climb a hill without running over someone's trash that they took out there are shot up....everytime i have visited that place someone is shooting irresponsibly and illegaly without a backstop. This is a safety matter and a matter that the land has been abused and only a "catostrophic cleanup" would be able to 1/2 ***** restore it. It all comes down to....I would rather see a land closed to entry than people being killed and the land being distroyed by irresponsible low lifes.

Personally, i would love to have the time to speak out at a land use meeting....but due to life i barely have the time to go wheeling. I do my best by educating individuals and cleaning up when i actually get a chance to get out. All you can ask is for individuals to do their best and you cant bash them for not doing what you think they should do....everyone has a different situation. Thanks to those who have the time and spend the time to deal with this cr@p, this is just some people's calling.

This is why I like to hunt.....i get out where nobody is and i dont need to deal with this cr@p.


local Rosco P coletrain's will help the situation

LOL...I am starting the Sheriff's Academy here in CA in OCT. I know alot of law enforcement and just like the military....they do what they are told and very often they are told to over enforce a problem area or their boundries are miss understood.

Linda
07-18-2005, 06:26 PM
You have to pick your fights. Good luck on this one. If you did a little research you would have found the following.

This site announces plans for a privately funded interchange at Watson & I10
http://www.rbf.com/services/projects.asp?id=555

This is the Buckeye development plan for the area. The red areas are different housing developmets. The green is probably an "open space". Blue and white will probably become discount outlet malls.
http://www.buckeyedevelopment.com/html/development/residential/index.html

This one shows the future development plan for the south side of I10.
http://www.steinkoss.com/sundance_sitemap.html

My1stJeep
07-18-2005, 06:45 PM
Just curious, has anyone spoken to the STLD or BLM to see if they have closed their lands to us or is this so far just speculation based on the officers out there? I know we cannot outright defy the officers without a pretty good chance of going to jail, but if the BLM and STLD have not closed the lands then I guess our fight is the the sheriffs outfit. If they have closed the land then it is with the BLM and STLD. I just want to know who we are going to be bumping heads with.

If no one knows about the STLD, it is not too far away from my office and I can swing over there tomorrow at lunch and see what answers I can get.

Rioshilo
07-18-2005, 06:46 PM
I have been out shooting a few times, and I can't imagine a shooter taking a refrigerater out, or a washing machine, or whatever out to shoot. Those items are dumped by other people. Not saying that shooters don't leave trash or targets or brass, just saying that the majority of the trash out there is not coming from them. We will all need to band together to keep our lands open...

Rio

Hackle
07-18-2005, 07:23 PM
This page lists all the area restrictions that I can find at this point. It shows Phx. BLM which covers White Tanks and The State Land Department. These are only fire closures I will contact Phx BLM tomorrow to see if any other type clousures are in effect.
Jim F.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/fire/information/firerestrictions/az/az_4_west-central.htm

On the AZ State Land Web page they show 78 acres closed due to PM10 but It is an old closure and I do not think it is the White Tanks area.
http://www.land.state.az.us/news/2004/maricopa_dust.htm

LOST TJ
07-18-2005, 08:57 PM
I spoke to a lady today on the phone at the BLM. She told me that for the first half of mile after you turn onto Watson is private property. That private property does not have to have signs, Private property is private property and they can have the MSCO enforce it. After that first half of mile it then is all State Trust Land. She did not see anywhere that this land had been sold. She also said that she could not confirm or deny this, but that is the information she had on hand at the time. Really freindly and helpfull. She told me to check with the county accesors office to get a accurate answer. I had no time to do that. I will try tomorrow. It would probably help them more if i wasn't such a newbie. It seemed like the lady wanted coordinates or sectors but i could just give her general driving directions. :rolleyes:

Edit: I was stopped after coming out of the wash after Appetizer. That is way past a half mile.

My1stJeep
07-19-2005, 03:47 PM
I started at the main number and followed through to a Chuck Hudson, he is in charge of the tresspassing on State Trust Land to get the scoupe.

The main problem is in increase in the number of off roaders (mostly ATV riders) cutting across private property owners (those 6 or seven houses that have been out there for the last 20 years plus, directly East of Appetizer and the main road, near the huge tank), increase in bullet holes in their homes and vehicles that has prompted this latest issue. Mr. Hudson has been in contact with the Maricopa County Sheriff Department, about 1 hour prior to my call, and has sent a new set of maps of any closed areas, i.e. the private property. That is what the MCSO is supposed to be helping curtail, not those of us that are doing what the land is meant to be used for. Infact Chuck did state they have been issuing citations, many of which are not valid. His hope is that with the new information he has provided them they will do a better job and understand better what they are doing and what is off limits and what is not.

As far as Watson Road is concerned it is open (road itself is not private property), all trails in the area are open, unless they cross private property. I have yet to be on a trail that I know crosses any private property.

Suggestions:
If you are a shooter, don't shoot on appetizer or near the dune, go farther in. Oops that leads into another issue, Dana, the first lady I spoke with said that shooting on STL is no longer permitted, that I have yet to be able to verify. I would say if you are shooting in the area you most likely will get paid a visit from the MCSO.

Be courtious around the homes and try to keep the dust down.

Stay on the trails.

I think it is time we do another clean up out there as Jeepers to maybe help change the opinion of those home owners out there of Jeepers.

Any thoughts???

Anyone up for a run out there this weekend?

Chris
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LOST TJ
07-19-2005, 04:21 PM
Anyone up for a run out there this weekend?
I would love to run out there this weekend. I cancelled my night run Saturday that i had planned there. What day would you be going? Is there anyway to get info to prove to the MCSO that i am legal there to avoid a ticket? Thanks for making some calls and helping to figure this out. I would definitely help with a clean up out there.

Hackle
07-19-2005, 04:45 PM
Chris it has always been illegal to shoot on state land. You can hunt on state land but target shooting is not allowed. Good job chasing this down, I would suggest everyone that wants to wheel the area have a State Land Permit in hand as with the Sheriff in the area I am sure they will write you a ticket without it.
Jim F.

nate
07-19-2005, 04:57 PM
aren't hunting licences also state trust land permits? or is that only when you are hunting?

Glad to hear that it isnt closed. something needed to be done about the shooting problem...good to hear that the MCSO is finally cracking down on this.

My1stJeep
07-19-2005, 05:08 PM
Nate,

Last I heard a hunting license was good to use as a State Trust Permit. However that is just my own brain remembering something I once heard. I suggest you call Dana over at the ASTLD, 602-255-4059. She was very informative and can get you going in the right direction.

As for the run, I have to drop the wife off at the airport at about 5:30am, then run home and get the Jeep, so I can do a morning run or we can do a night run... what ever you prefer??????

Requirements for anyone going, State Trust Land Permit. You will also have to follow all fire restriction, and it does specifically call out smoking, you must be in your vehicle to smoke, not my rule it is on their website and with the MCSO roaming not sure we want to rock the boat.

I will post up a run on the site for anyone to sign up on.

jeepsonly
07-19-2005, 05:48 PM
Thanks for doing the research on this guys. I suspected that enforcement was overzealous. Even so, I would expect to be visited by law enforcement on any trip to the trails in the White Tanks. Be prepared but I can't stress enough - be nice.

Hackle
07-19-2005, 06:02 PM
A hunting license is good on state land only while hunting. Good luck telling them you are hunting while in a line of 5 or 6 jeeps running a trail. Elmer Fud comes to mind! Shhhhhhh be berry berry quiet :D
Jim F

nodnar
07-19-2005, 06:08 PM
I have been out shooting a few times, and I can't imagine a shooter taking a refrigerater out, or a washing machine, or whatever out to shoot. Those items are dumped by other people. Not saying that shooters don't leave trash or targets or brass, just saying that the majority of the trash out there is not coming from them. We will all need to band together to keep our lands open...

Rio

I've seen shooters unloading "many" computer monitors and tv's to shoot.

twstdtj
07-19-2005, 11:37 PM
I would love to run out there this weekend. I cancelled my night run Saturday that i had planned there. What day would you be going? Is there anyway to get info to prove to the MCSO that i am legal there to avoid a ticket? Thanks for making some calls and helping to figure this out. I would definitely help with a clean up out there.


Hi T,
I am willing to go whenever. Shoot me a PM so we can figure out what to do this weekend. I have a few guys that are ready to go where ever.

Jeff

LOST TJ
07-20-2005, 06:23 PM
Thanks dude!!! Another CK night run should Kick. The White Tanks Night Run is back on. See the old site for specifics. :D Hopefully we don't just all get tickets...... :D

AZXJ
07-22-2005, 12:30 AM
LOL...I am starting the Sheriff's Academy here in CA in OCT. I know alot of law enforcement and just like the military....they do what they are told and very often they are told to over enforce a problem area or their boundries are miss understood.[/QUOTE]

You don't know Buckeye PD or MCSO like I do.. I lived in Buckeye most of my childhood and delt with most of the officers in the area as a kid.. I'll leave it at that..

AZXJ
07-22-2005, 12:38 AM
You have to pick your fights. Good luck on this one. If you did a little research you would have found the following.

This site announces plans for a privately funded interchange at Watson & I10
http://www.rbf.com/services/projects.asp?id=555

This is the Buckeye development plan for the area. The red areas are different housing developmets. The green is probably an "open space". Blue and white will probably become discount outlet malls.
http://www.buckeyedevelopment.com/html/development/residential/index.html

This one shows the future development plan for the south side of I10.
http://www.steinkoss.com/sundance_sitemap.html

from those links I calculated 66,384 new homes.. :eek: were screwed... :confused:

Bama
07-22-2005, 06:09 PM
I am in no way enforcing the closures in any way, but i personally know the man that owns the house closest to the big tank, farthest from the I-10(i bought my scout from him). He also has a jeep, and wheels it. He has complained numerous times about ATV RIDERS zooming across his land. he has never had any complaints about fellow jeepers. I dont know if it was him that hired the sherrifs to come out there, but i doubt it. I guess what im trying to say is that the ATV riders are stirring up the most dust.

My1stJeep
07-23-2005, 03:17 PM
Chuck at the STLD did not mention which house out there, he stated it as all of those home owners out by the tank. It is not just the dust from ATV's cutting across their property, but stray bullets that have found those homes. I can see why they want the MCSO out there. However the MCSO should be enforcing people stay off their land and no shooting as target shooting on State Trust Land is illegal, unless it is hunting and for that you need a seperate hunting permit.

Then again if you are hunting and shooting at something that close to someone's house is just plain dumb. If that continues it would only be a matter of time and someone inside one of those homes or outside playing would end up getting hit with one of those bullets.

I do know that last time I participated in a clean up out there at least one of the home owners came over to thank us for our efforts, so I don't think in anyway those homeowners are against us. they just want people to stay off their property and to stop target shooting.

Allen
07-23-2005, 07:36 PM
from those links I calculated 66,384 new homes.. :eek: were screwed... :confused:


Darn new home buyers!......wait..... I just bought a new home :o