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JD Night Fox
05-13-2014, 09:33 AM
Okay guys, I finally got my '06 Ninja running so I had it registered yesterday for the first time. I'm Air Force reserves and someone a long time ago told me about the on base riding classes that I can do, but I forget who it was and I deleted my PM's so I can't look it up. Does anyone know when/where those would be?

wj_brillo
05-13-2014, 10:03 AM
http://www.motorcycletraining.com/

Do yourself a favor, and after you get this class done, take an advanced riding course, well worth the money spent and it's a blast...

Cactus Ed
05-13-2014, 10:03 AM
Maybe I'm way off base, but I used this crew. Good classes and instructor.

http://www.motorcycletraining.com/

Hope it helps.

OTR-93YJ
05-13-2014, 10:51 AM
From the site..

"Cornering at speeds requiring countersteering"

does this mean drifting on two wheels?

tpsman
05-13-2014, 11:39 AM
Plenty of drifting can be done on two wheels, but that is not what they are referring to. :-)


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JD Night Fox
05-13-2014, 01:57 PM
Is that website for the on base one? That's what I was asking about. One of the national guard places in Phoenix does their own classes every month I think and that's what I was trying to get info on.

UBERK
05-13-2014, 02:42 PM
IIRC: as an active member of the military...may apply to reserves too...you are required to wear ALL safety gear at ALL times...even in a state such as AZ that has no helmet law. Of course, I could be wrong, but you may want to clarify that.

As for the drifting on 2 wheels, there are some great videos on YT of some guys doing that....insane skills and huge balls. Id post the links but Im at work and YT is blocked, Ill try to later tonight.

IOMTT is next month too FYI...greatest race in the world.

OTR-93YJ
05-13-2014, 02:50 PM
I've been searching for "Cornering at speeds requiring countersteering" and doing some reading and I still don't get it. I guess this means I should take a class as well...

wj_brillo
05-13-2014, 02:58 PM
OTR, don't drift your bike, please, it's too nice...

on a second note, I just found this, I hope whomever reads this doesn't just look to the right, hoping their bike will turn right lol because we all know, handle bars are just for aesthetics, it's all how you look at the road lol

A motorcycle has a tendency to follow your head and eyes. It's an equilibrium thing. Now it isn't just your eyes, it's your head; it's the way you look, it's everything. If you focus on a target (fixate) you will head right to the target. So look where you want to go and you will go there every time. Conversely, you have to force youself to look away from those things you don't want to hit. ie road kill, potholles, debris in the road, etc.

In slow, tight turns, turn your head as far as you can, and look at your target. This will drive the motorcycle right to it, as long as you relax, and let the motorcycle move. At higher speeds, look as far through the turn as you can. This should seem a little uncomfortable, but with persistence, you will be much more efficient through corners, find a better line, and be more comfortable with the principle. Take some time to concentrate on applying this technique, and it will become second nature. Potholes or objects in the road? Look away as you try to avoid them by pressing on the bar in the direction you want to go. It's a miracle, and it keeps your pain level at a minimum.

UBERK
05-13-2014, 03:01 PM
http://www.motorcycletraining.com/team-arizona-riding-tip-march-2013-countersteering/

mingoglia
05-13-2014, 03:02 PM
I went through that School as well. Was a good time. Had one of the girls crash her motorcycle through the barricade and into the building though. The front wheel of the bike almost went through the window. Oops. She was sent home. :D

JD Night Fox
05-13-2014, 03:24 PM
I went through that School as well. Was a good time. Had one of the girls crash her motorcycle through the barricade and into the building though. The front wheel of the bike almost went through the window. Oops. She was sent home. :D

Is that not part of the course?

tpsman
05-13-2014, 03:42 PM
OTR, next time you are out riding on a straight road, easy speeds, relax your grip and gently push on one side or the other either with your thumb or finger tips. The bike will lean and go the other way. Not hard turning, but lean steering.


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OTR-93YJ
05-13-2014, 03:53 PM
I think I understand what it is but I will play with that next time out. I've always known the bike follows the eyes. When I used to teach kids to ride dirt bikes I would tell them "don't look at the rock".

I've been riding for a quite awhile but I've been told by people with more experience than me that they learned a lot from this type of training. I'm seriously considering it.

As far as me drifting the new bike, not a chance! I'm still a bit ginger in the corners with this one. The yamaharley would corner like it was on rails since it had a seemingly heavier front end. I was so used to the yamaha I could look off in either direction and not effect the bike. On the harley if I look off the bike goes that direction for sure.

I've just never heard it called countersteering before.

OTR-93YJ
05-13-2014, 03:57 PM
http://www.motorcycletraining.com/team-arizona-riding-tip-march-2013-countersteering/

Thanks for the link.

Cactus Ed
05-13-2014, 05:20 PM
Thanks for the link.

it works. I betcha you do it without realizing.

There's a ~2 minute countersteering vid in this group that was pretty good, as I remember it.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/course/adventure-in-motorcycle-physics/id631413403

I had a bunch of marginal habits coming off a dirt bike, but I'm looking forward to taking a TeamAZ advanced class and even bagging some track time. Our classroom stuff was at Buddy Stubbs on Cave Creek, and the course was set up at Glendale Community. Well worth the investment!

OTR-93YJ
05-13-2014, 05:36 PM
I'm an old dirt bike rider as well. I've even had friends ask me why I lean outward on turns. LOL. But the dirt bike habits do help when you're involved in bike games in the dirt arenas.

Thanks for the info and sorry for the hijack.

JD Night Fox
05-13-2014, 05:52 PM
Well I'm more used to dirtbiking so drifting was the first thing that came to mind, not to mention I drifted my Ninja accidentally while turning onto my street because the road was covered in gravel OOPS I'll slow down next time

2equisYJ
05-13-2014, 07:02 PM
I've been searching for "Cornering at speeds requiring countersteering" and doing some reading and I still don't get it. I guess this means I should take a class as well...

here is the basic "Barney " version...On a sportbike you countersteer at speed and turn into the direction of travel at low speed. If you are turning left at a traffic light you steer left. At speed things change. When you want to turn left it's more like "banking" left. You countersteer to the right and the geometry and physics of the bike and rider position will cause you to dip to the left and take you through your turn. Moving the bars back to center will upright the bike and rider and get you traveling straight again. If you try to turn the bars in the direction you want to travel at speed you will exit the roadway.....quickly.

Check out msf-usa.org for training. Keith Code books are also a good place to start if you''re looking for the layman's explanation of sport bike control. His books are track oriented but much of the same principles apply to the street .

There is no "drifting " involved. :)

Edit to add: low speed is under about 10mph. Above 10mph you start countersteering. It just becomes natural after a while.

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OTR-93YJ
05-14-2014, 08:36 AM
I'm sure I already do it just never heard it called that before. I'm not on a sport bike so any type of drifting (other than on dirt) will cause scratches to the chrome and possibly total the Harley!!

I'm doing an Armed Forces Day Poker Run this weekend so I'll play with this and see if it's something new or what I've been doing all along and now I know the correct name for it.

Huck
05-14-2014, 09:21 AM
I think I understand what it is but I will play with that next time out. I've always known the bike follows the eyes. When I used to teach kids to ride dirt bikes I would tell them "don't look at the rock".

I've been riding for a quite awhile but I've been told by people with more experience than me that they learned a lot from this type of training. I'm seriously considering it.

As far as me drifting the new bike, not a chance! I'm still a bit ginger in the corners with this one. The yamaharley would corner like it was on rails since it had a seemingly heavier front end. I was so used to the yamaha I could look off in either direction and not effect the bike. On the harley if I look off the bike goes that direction for sure.

I've just never heard it called countersteering before.

Seems like some folks have helped to explain it here. Counter steering is a great tool, once you understand how it works and why it works. A MSF safe rider class, especially an advanced one, will help you get comfortable with the idea and practice it.
FWIW- it is the only way I ride. A little push on the opposite grip of where you want to go, a shift of my hip, and boom, you are on your way in the opposite direction. If you think of how a motorcycle tire looks as it turns and when you lean into a turn, you should understand how pushing away from the direction you are turning actually causes the bike to carve the turn better and not fight itself.
This works at speeds, normally ~20mph and above. Slow speed turns require regular turning or turning into the direction you want to go. All bikes have a speed where their equilibrium shifts. I find it to be right around 20 mph, for the three bikes I currently own and ride. At that exact speed, kind of like a weak death wobble, the bike doesn't know which way it turns best. Most folks just accelerate through this speed and don't have to deal with it. It is when you are parading or working on bike stunts/events, that you become intimately familiar with this issue and how best to dance with it. The advanced safe rider courses normally get you to experience this feeling and teach you how to ride thorough it.
It is pretty crazy, but if you ever follow me, you will see me dragging my dresser through the curves and totally counter steering the whole way. With a little hip and the push of the opposite grip, even an FLHRCI can dance. Shoot, my dresser dances and leans more than my low FXST. I'm forever dragging the floorboards on my Softail.

Learn to counter steer and you will find curvy roads like 89 heading North to Prescott to be a blast and lot less taxing. Hitting corners with any type of speed and trying to turn 'normally' is a fight, believe it or not. I'm very happy to demonstrate these techniques and work with anyone who would like to learn, free of charge. Just feel that this is a very important concept to master. My .02....

OTR-93YJ
05-14-2014, 09:28 AM
Thanks Huck, I may take you up on that. I'm going to play with it myself for a bit first. I'll let you know.

Fiat
05-14-2014, 09:51 AM
Drift!!? Lol
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Pilotsupermotard.jpg

Sent from the voices in my head

Cactus Ed
05-14-2014, 10:15 AM
...All bikes have a speed where their equilibrium shifts. I find it to be right around 20 mph, for the three bikes I currently own and ride. At that exact speed, kind of like a weak death wobble, the bike doesn't know which way it turns best. Most folks just accelerate through this speed and don't have to deal with it. It is when you are parading or working on bike stunts/events, that you become intimately familiar with this issue and how best to dance with it.

It is pretty crazy, but if you ever follow me, you will see me dragging my dresser through the curves and totally counter steering the whole way. With a little hip and the push of the opposite grip, even an FLHRCI can dance. Shoot, my dresser dances and leans more than my low FXST. I'm forever dragging the floorboards on my Softail.

My .02....

Well worth the two cents!

Check my limited logic... my guess is that the differences between your bikes has to do with fork rake. As I understand the physics of it, the slight pressure on the bars changes the contact patch of the front tire enough to initiate a lean in the bike. If your fork was straight up vertical, countersteering would have no effect.

Looking forward to 89! Might pick a cool evening and take the Versys up South Mountain for starters.

Huck
05-14-2014, 10:36 AM
Well worth the two cents!

The differences between your bikes has to do with fork rake. As I understand the physics of it, the slight pressure on the bars changes the contact patch of the front tire enough to initiate a lean in the bike.

Looking forward to 89! Might pick a cool evening and take the Versys up South Mountain for starters.

You are correct about the fork rake being a big part of it and the push of the tire, initiating the lean (throw a bit of hip and you can really rock and roll). Weight and COG (or height of the bike off the ground), also play a big role (along with fork length). It was eye opening to me, as I learned about counter steering, in my early 20's. Even cooler was learning about the speed at which each bike is a bit unstable, because you are right on the edge of counter steering/regular steering and which technique is most effective at that speed.

Enjoy the ride. Outside of the breeze, the nights have been awesome for riding, lately.

OTR-93YJ
05-14-2014, 11:43 AM
I've been enjoying the night rides since I don't have to wake up till about 8 AM. I hate cleaning the bugs off this harley though. With the yamaha I would clean for minutes and ride for hours. Seems the opposite is true now.

k9rockydog
05-16-2014, 12:02 PM
get the dvd "twist of the wrist II" from Helmet Center

OTR-93YJ
05-16-2014, 01:15 PM
I played with this countersteering stuff the last two nights. It is definitely different than what I've been doing except maybe at freeway speeds. I can already seethe benefits in regards to control in the corners but I also see an additional benefit. I noticed that when I go into a turn and only lean the bike THEN half way through the turn I apply some counter steering the bike leans more without changing the radius of the turn. This could transfer wear to the outer parts of the tires and give me more mileage on my tires.

Good Stuff!

Cactus Ed
05-16-2014, 02:12 PM
Nice!! It's subtle, ain't it? Try it earlier; for a left sweeper look left and just 'think' about pushing with your left hand. Turn will just fall into place (so to speak).

And thanks for killin' all those bugs for us!

2equisYJ
05-16-2014, 04:22 PM
I played with this countersteering stuff the last two nights. It is definitely different than what I've been doing except maybe at freeway speeds. I can already seethe benefits in regards to control in the corners but I also see an additional benefit. I noticed that when I go into a turn and only lean the bike THEN half way through the turn I apply some counter steering the bike leans more without changing the radius of the turn. This could transfer wear to the outer parts of the tires and give me more mileage on my tires.

Good Stuff!

Nice.. now keep going lower until you can get a knee down. :)

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OTR-93YJ
05-16-2014, 05:03 PM
Nice!! It's subtle, ain't it? Try it earlier; for a left sweeper look left and just 'think' about pushing with your left hand. Turn will just fall into place (so to speak).

And thanks for killin' all those bugs for us!

Yea, the bugs are really something out here in the fields. The bike is a mess already. The well water makes it hard to wash as well since it's very hard water.


Nice.. now keep going lower until you can get a knee down. :)



Not going to happen on this bike!! By the time my knee gets down the fat lady will be done singing! It's very similar to the one in this picture.

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