PDA

View Full Version : Back Fire Through Carb


BobnJeep
02-22-2005, 10:04 AM
Did the top end rebuild a while back and can't get it to stop backfiring through the 4 barrel. So this is the advice I got from someone on FSJworld:
EEEEWWWwwwwwwww. A-heh....."Advance the cam at installation"....That's not a nice thing to say. You, or whoever cammed the puppy, should have timed it according to the new timing gear set. I'd go for strait up timing if you are choosing to redo it. All you do when you altar your Cam/ Crank timing is move your power to the torque or HP side of the curve, it really shouldn't miss! The firing order is easy to check- 1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2. Clock-wise distributor rotor rotation. Your cylinders are numbered from the front spark plug going to the rear- 1,3,5,7 on the driver side, and 2,4,6,8 on the passenger side starting at the front spark plug.
So- First thing to check is the wiring order, OR- pull all of your spark plug wires, get the engine to top dead center indicated by the damper and timing cover and pull the number one spark plug and have someone hand rotate the crank from the front damper nut untill your timing mark on the damper is at TDC on the timing cover and you can stick a wire into the spark plug hole and fell the piston at the top of the cylinder. The wire should stick down into the spark plug hole 1.5" from the top of the spark plug hole to the top of the piston at TDC. NOW you can be at TDC compression stroke OR for the exhaust stroke. So pull the distributor cap and make sure your rotor is pointing to the front of the PS pump and not to the coil. If its pointed at the coil or towards the passenger side and rear of the engine, its 180 degrees off. So rotate the crank one more full rotation and you should be pretty damn close. Now that you have confirmed the crank is roughly at TDC compression and the dizzy would be in the firing position for no. 1 cyl (front driver side) You put the cap back on the distributor and start with the shortest plug wire- go to number one cylender, then work your way around the cap, finishing with cylender 2, the front passenger side cylender. Now REcheck by tracing the wires, I think you can get heat resistant labels for labelling your wires, if you want to, Now you will want to try starting the rig. If it back fires but will not start, its possible you could be still 180 out if you forgot a step. But usually it won't do crap if your timing is set up to spark right at TDC, so advance the distributor buy turning the base in the timin cover a bit at a time, You will want to advance the timing, so rotate the base counter clockwise.
You'll probably end up with about 10 BTDC to start. then advance it until it idles real smooth, adjusting your idle speed down so it should run 800 rpm with 10 to 15 degrees advance. DO NOT CONNECT the VACUUM ADVANCE! this will screw everything up! Adjust your carb mixture screws also so you get a nice clean idle and about 16" of manifold vacuum.

If none of this is relevant.....let me know, I'll delete it and try something else. I hope this works for you. If its just the spark and carb need adjusting, that's about the luckiest you can get! If nothing you do helps or when you try to time it and the timing mark "jumps" around but is flashing every time, you have a worn out timing set.....get ready to make a mess, you need to replace it and possibly the cam- check back. Good luck!

One thing you could try, if you can get the vehicle running, put the timing gun on all 8 spark plug wires (seperatly of course) and make sure they are all firing, Obviously you can't check them in reference on the damper/timing marks, but just make sure they all flash at a regular rate when the engine is running. This rules out bad plugs and bad wires as your "missing" problem. You could also have flat cam lobes or bad lifters....or....well, I'll stop there before it gets to expensive.

So I took the advice and checked to see if the wires are right, and they are. It looks like to me that the cam is 180 degrees off. Is my next step to re-install the cam?

JamesT
02-22-2005, 11:29 AM
not "re-install the cam" but, re-install the timing gears & chain... . Not a fun job none the less.


What chain and gears did you use? I might have some pictures, at home, of what it should look like under the cover.

BobnJeep
02-22-2005, 12:40 PM
First of all I should give credit where credit is due, Steve (OlneyJeeps) was the first to suggest that this was the problem. The other possibility is that it is a stuck Valve which heads is the last step I will take to fix.

The list is long:

Milodon True Roller Timing Set
CompCams hydraulic lifters
CompCams Camshaft w/280 lift at.006
Edelbrock Performer Manifold
Road Demon 650 4 barrel
Stock distributor
Jacobs Electronics Off Road Ignition Pak (Secondary Trigger)
MSD High Vibration Coil

I think that was it. It has been awhile since we done the work, and it has run right :mad:

SavageSun4x4
02-22-2005, 01:13 PM
I didn't see the type of engine your running, but if your running an old V8 Chevy, then the first place I would look is the distrubitor. Yes you can install it 180 out.

Check to see that No 1 piston is at proper timing mark on crankshaft. Turn distrubitor untill it fires number 1. Fix it till it does.

If your not running a Chevy V8, hell if I know so disreguard all of the above.

JamesT
02-22-2005, 04:46 PM
I can't find any good pics, I have some someplace. I know the way everything goes together didn't look "normal", it looked like the cam was going to be off 180*. This was with an Edelbrock timing chain & gears. Maybe you put everything together in a way it looked "normal".

I will look some more for the pictures.

I am assuming this is a AMC360.

BobnJeep
02-22-2005, 05:31 PM
Yea, I forgot to mention that it is an AMC 360. It had the 2 barrel, and I did the upgrade to put a 4 barrel in it.

BobnJeep
03-01-2005, 08:18 PM
So it seems that when you install a new cam with a .490 Gross Valve Lift, that you might want to, or rather better, put in different
VALVE SPRINGS! :mad:
I probably have a broken spring or two.
I'm kinda pizzed that the meckanik (use the term loosly) that I used, would not know this. The first one to mention that this is the only way to go, is the shop mechanic at my work. So I priced a set at CompCams, and they are $180 for the springs and $130 for steel seats/perches or whatever they call them. I have a CompCams Cam and Lifters, and they seem to make a good product.
Can I get them from somewhere else cheaper, or should I?

KingGlamis
03-01-2005, 08:59 PM
Well normally having good valve springs only matter at higher rpms. Unless of course there was a coil-bind problem with the stock springs. But .490 lift is not super big, so coil-bind doesn't sound likely. How high did you rev the engine? Weak springs cause valve float at high rpm, but I have never seen valve float at 4,000rpm or less, and I try not to take my Jeep over 4,000rpm.

Any other details you can share with us?

BobnJeep
03-02-2005, 06:00 AM
Not over 4000 rpm, I'm sure. It seems as though we have tried everything that does not involve tearing it down again, and it is still back firing through the carb, and studdreing. The duration at .006 the tappet lift is 280. It says that 926-16 springs are required. I can't find these springs on CompCams website, and when I called them, they said they had to transfer me to the Tech Department. I was on hold for too long, so I hung up. I will try again today.

OlneyJeeps
03-02-2005, 07:21 AM
I run/ran a 286 in my J10 w/a 360 and never had problem with valve springs.

Just an idea.... with engine running, remove plug wires one at a time; listen for rpm drop, and see is you can identify which cylinder is causing backfire

I know I have said this already, but it is only because it is all to easy to "oops"(been there, done that), check plug wires: don't just try following wire down... remove both ends to clearly seperate

ps.. what is your oil pressure running?
have you checked ignition module?

SavageSun4x4
03-02-2005, 09:24 AM
Step 1) Go to No 1 cyl and check static timimg. With engine off rotate crank to TDC, with valve covers off watch No 1 cyl valves to see if both valves are closed at TDC.
Step 2) Pull cap off distrubtor and check to see if rotor is lined up with contact on No 1 cyl lead wire. If it is then your timing is set correctly. If both valves are closed and your firing on the No 1 cyl at TDC your cam is most likely installed correctly. [note: make sure the intake valve is closed and the exhaust is begining to open just before and after TDC. If your cam is 180 out it will be the oppsite, exhaust will be open and then close as the intake begins to open at TDC]
Step 3) Go thru each cyl in its firing order to see if each has the valves closed or there is valve lag due to: broke or bent springs, bent pushrod, cracked rocker arm, rocker arm adjustment nut not tightened down. Also check to insure each rocker arm stud is the same height for all exhaust/intake [most studs are press in and can and will pull out].

yldkat
03-04-2005, 11:14 AM
When you say, "It looks like to me that the cam is 180 degrees off."

Do you actually mean the Distributor?

I dunno, I could be missing the obvious here, but it would seem to me if you installed your cam 180* out, and you have progressed far enough to know it's backfiring through the carb, then you probably now are the proud owner of some bent valves. Bent valves will hang open. Let's hope it's not that.

Is it possible you are 1 tooth off on your distributor timing? This would cause your symptoms as well. Firing a cylinder on the intake cycle.

Check for crossed plug wires in cylinders next to each other as well.

That's all I have with the info presented.



.

OlneyJeeps
03-04-2005, 12:39 PM
Just sitting here thinking :eek:
how long has vehicle been sitting?
After sitting for a while, gos goes bad, valve guides dry up/valves become very sticky
this happened to my 88 grand waggy after it sat for several weeks
when I went to restart, backfired a couple times through carb
shot a bunch of carb cleaner down carb (freed up valves), ran like a champ
emissions were incredibly low (.03 hc, .01 co) WITH NO MODIFICATIONS!

OlneyJeeps
03-04-2005, 01:23 PM
oops :eek: I meant "NO" not "TO".....gonna have to cut that finger off to teach the others a lesson

BobnJeep
03-04-2005, 04:03 PM
You guys are great. I apreciate all the feedback. I still haven't pulled the valve covers, but a friend of mine was looking at it while we were conversing and thinking about possibilities, and he noticed a plug sparking around the ceramic. These were replaced after these symptoms, but I will start there.