Changing our image

[SavageSun4x4]

We need a better image instead of more data collection to fight the other data collectors [Sierra Club, etc,
etc]. Only one major group has ever won those battles, the NRA. They have
won and continued to win for 2 reasons.
1. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights, specifically the 2nd Amendment,
the right to keep and bear arms!
2. The data collected, whether by the NRA, or the Federal/State/Local
governments has and continues to validate the 2nd Amendment.
3. Simple, we win because we are right and continue to be so.

Having said that. We [off roaders] struggle to keep what little we have and
are continually losing ground. Our sport is very near extinction. Matter
of fact, much closer than you know. Today the Koyota [sp] Treaty took
effect. Every country except the US has signed the treaty. HOWEVER it has
been signed, by none other than Owl Hore, excuse me, Al Gore, while he was
the VP. The NEXT liberal democrat will ratify that signature and declare it
law. Your OHV [motorbike, Jeep, ATV, etc, etc] will not be worth the time
of day. All lands will be closed and managed by the Federal government by
the United Nations! Better not vote for Billary Klinton!

Till that happens we still have a few good years left. But collecting data
and one more trail clean-up is not the answer. In fact about all we are
accomplishing is:
1. Making ourselves feel good
2. Putting lipstick on a pig

We can attend all the meetings we want and scream bloody murder or present
facts as thick as the NYC fone book. Who listens, who cares and when will
pigs fly? We do, we do and no time soon! And, who is “we”? Mostly us and
the turd in our back pockets because other than us, no one gives a flip of
the finger even.

But we can change that. And we have a model of how its done. It starts
with changing our image. From a bunch of redneck, hard drinkin guys running
around in or on OHV’s and tearing up the ground, fences, shooting cattle,
chopping down trees/cactus and eating spotted owls [well they are better
than chicken]. What if I told you there was a group of folks, that rode
around, tearing things up, using and selling drugs, killing, robbing and
passing women around like candy. Men who take what they want by force, who
rape for fun. A group of folks so vile that few towns would even allow them
to do anything but pass thru, under police escort. A group so viscous that
the mere sight of them would cause doors to slam and police to be called.

Yet today that same group, rides to the White House and its riders are
Congressmen. Today you can pull up to a 5 star resort and be welcomed, even
provided special parking, out front. If you come in a group, not only will
they provide special parking, but provide a guard to watch over your ride
while you enjoy the premises. Today, women want you, families want to know
more and roll down windows to ask questions.

Yea, it was one hell’va transition and it happened fast. Yes, its the
Harley Owners Group or HOG. A major contributor to charity, orphanages,
Toy’s for Tot’s, etc, etc. Now its the rides led by Jay Leno, Lauren
Hutton, Congressman Ben Knighthorse Campbell, Steve Forbes and most every
other celebrity either behind the handle bars or behind the rider.

We need to do what they did. Align ourselves with “goodness”, become a
resource to our community, be R E S P E C T E D as Aretha Franklin would
say. Get our name/organization in the news, TV, radio, paper and magazines.
We won’t do it picking up a beer bottle on upper Raw Deal. We won’t do it
having a get together at the South 40 Cactus in Florence Junction.

We will do it when 78 Jeeps drive across town on Xmas eve to deliver teddy
bears to the home for six toed kids. We will do it when 63 Jeeps drive to
Chandler for the Civil War Veterans Parade. It won’t be long and folks are
saying “those Jeep folks are good people, heck I see them down at the home
for unwed mothers all the time”. Then some day somebody will say, “nice
Jeep there, what’s it cost to build one of those?” “The hell you say, I
could buy me a Mar-say-dees Bends for that kind of money!” After a while
the folks will be looking at our rigs and know we are doing something
besides “shoveling **** in Louisiana” [General George Patton, 1943] for a
living. And, like the Harley folks who own something else besides that
Harley, they have nearly $50k+ in, we will be seen in the same light.

Then the next time we go to some meeting and drive up there in our rigs and
stand up and say “Hello, I’m Don and I drive a Jeep”, oops, wrong meeting.
Say we go to a land use meeting, then when we stand up, we have more than
just a six pack, we have RESPECT! The land use guy has a kid with six toes
and we gave him a stuffed teddy bear and we have been taking his unwed
daughter for rides in our Jeep. He is also thinking, “gotta keep these guys
happy, hell they spend more money on their Jeep’s than I make in a year.”
“Sierra Club, go take a hike!”

[KingGlamis]

Some great points in there. And I'd like to add there are lots of ways to change our image. My background has mainly been in the sand dunes. I have been a volunteer for the American Sand Association (ASA) for many years. One of the ways the ASA made big strides in image was to make themselves known to the people that matter (like Senators and Congressmen/women). They started off with letter writing, phone calls, etc., and when that only worked marginally, they started sending represenatives to the offices of the decision makers. AND, probably the most effective tactic was that they actually got the government types to take trips to the dunes, meet the people in person, see the millions of dollars worth of equipment, see the families having a good time together, etc. You can imagine the surprise when these gubmint reps are told a top of the line buggy costs over $100,000. Add to that a $200K+ motorhome, a big trailer, and these people start to realize we represent a sizable chunk of the US economy. AND a sizable chunk of voters (all they really care about anyway).

Another thing they did (and ORBA had a hand in this as well) was to hire a lobbyist whose sole job is to "lobby" the gubmint types on pro-off-roading issues. And of course lobby against anti-off-roading issues.

As they say, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. But as we have learned from the Sierra Club, CBD, et. all, if a wheel squeaks so much that it becomes unbearable, the gubmint will do anything to stop that wheel from squeaking.

I think united we can squeak pretty loud.

[Tom Schenk]

Don, I believe that you hit the nail on the head.

[Sedona Jeep School]

Don,

Well spoken, as usual. However, I do take issue with the insinuation that I have ever shot cattle :D As for the other charges, well, on advice of counsel, I decline to comment.

Seriously, I remember 20 years ago we wheeled whereever we wanted, and it was okay. This is not the case anymore. With the drastic increase in shear numbers of people, not only in general population, but in trail usage, we have to evolve as a group, like it or not.

I love your Harley analogy--I have used it frequently. Yesterday's Harley riders were Hells Angels, whereas today's Harley riders are accountants, lawyers, and dentists--Just as yesterday's 4-wheelers were rednecks, whereas the New Jeepers are engineers, programmers, and real estate brokers: more responsible and sensitive to environmental issues. (I am writing an article titled "The New Jeeper".)

I had a very interesting conversation with a ranking Forest Service official. He indicated that they want to work with Jeep clubs, that clubs are the future of OHV. Commercial interests get the most attention, but it is public recreation which is the priority. See the article I just posted on this board at http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?p=24694

Our chance is now--do you realize how big this is? Partner with the local land managers. Write letters to the higher-up decision-makers. That way we are working from both ends. Get visible. Public relations. Public Relations. Public Relations. Just like I tell pro guides: you drive down the street with the decal on your Jeep, you are representing to the public what the (club, company) stands for. Be smart. Look for opportunities to persuade others to our point of view, not cram it down their throats and affirm the idea that we are still a bunch "rednecks".

Just a note on the Sierra Club. I will address this further at a later time, but I have followed the adage: Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. The Sierra Club is not our biggest enemy anymore. They have evolved, too--into the (love 'em or hate 'em) respected, moderate voice of environmental activists. There are alliances that can be made there. :eek: Consider those far-reaching implications for a while...

On a lighter note, I have suspected for some time that some of you have been taking unwed daughters for rides in your Jeeps! :D Whatever it takes, guys, whatever it takes... ;)

Happy trails!

[My1stJeep]

Don,

Well said and I agree. Even when several members went out on a support our troops ride around town people looked at them as rednecks.

Until 2004 a few of us participated in the Glendale Fire Prevention Parade, the Jeeps were the hit of the parade. We used to work with a lady, who has since stopped organizing the parade, she loved us and wanted us back year after year, she got mail about us, calls etc... All we did was drive down the route, evey once in awhile we stopped, pulled up on a tire to flex out and then continue, the crowd went nuts. We would then park in the exhibit and hand out flyers and talk with people, let kids sit in our rigs, take pictures and had a great time. The last one we were in in 2003, we were told we had a spot in the exhibit, when we got to the end of the route the waived us off, said sorry no room, the entiere time I worked with the guy he just kept brushing us off, he never called for us in 2004 and did not return my calls.

To me this was a great way to change peoples minds, show them we can have fun, but also that we are responsible, good people. One hard part was getting people here to attend. Most years I had to pull teeth to get any Jeepers to commit to participating down the parade route and never did see alot of Jeepers in the crowd, we would have know that at the exhibit.

Another run I tried to get going was one to support a charity that helps children that have learning disabilities, they have a road rally once a year to raise money. This charily also has a HUGE set of links to well connected politicians, major door to be opened here, yet not one person wanted to participate. True maybe not the most fun, yes not cheap but I was given room to alter the cost to get the wheelers there. We even had an off road course that still ended up in the same desination, all the people there were looking forward to some Jeeps, or any OHV.

I don't think we can stop our trail clean ups, they are very important and while the good we do there will never get coverage to change our image to the public, I do think it helps with the land management organizations I agree we need to reach Joe Public. My question is how do we mobilize this group? Many of these suggestions have been done before and seems like it is too much for people.

I do think one good thing is attending the freeway openings, those reach to the public and I think those who organize that and attend are doing a great service, I must admit I have only attended one and should attend more, it was a blast.

Let's get some ideas on the table and see what we want to go with, sound good?

Are you Man Enough Car Show - In April to help support a girl scout troup, a great opportunity to open some eyes.

Glendale Fire Prevention Parade - Is in October and if there is enough interest I will fight the battle and get us in.

APS Light Parade - Around Christmas time

OHV Show - Set up a show to raise food for local food banks sometime mid year. Everyone seems to do it around Christmas time, but as a good friend has continually said, they need food all year.

I know someone else started the idea of a Jeep show, maybe we can use some of that to help out here. Any thoughts? Any takes to tackle one of these?

Just throwing out ideas to see what sticks...

[blackeyedt]

You have a pretty good opportunity comming up in about 12 hours !! The sportsman Expo thread that began this p.m... Go back and review this....I posted up about comming with my stock TJ ..and no replies... Here is an opportunity to pursue a PR-type of agenda... I have been active in the freeway openings, training courses and runs that my Jeep is capable of... I enjoy the backcountry and my ability to get out of the city... I may not do the 4+ trails, but to each his own ! Here may be an opportunity,

I also felt that the "Fire Relief Run" To Payson should have been brought up...This group was quite amazing in it's ability to make that happen... About 100 Jeeps heading up the beeline with donated supplies... Are we still do-ers?

[BobnJeep]

There are some Car Sows that happen up here in Prescott at the new Yavapai County Fair Grounds and at that Classic Car Dealership on Hwy 69. We have a very Political Town here. Every nice day at the courthouse there is "Women in Black" on one corner, and “War Supporters” on the opposing corner. My point is, it might be a good idea to try to get a OHV Class registered at these Car Shows and make a good showing there as a club. Hand out Politically Motivated Flyers announcing our clean up efforts. I know someone from AZVGC who did a great job with the ones we put out for that club. Give out Honorary Club Stickers or even T-Shirts to kids, in exchange for canned food items.
I'll look to see when the first show is, and if we can get a Special Entry Class.
I would do most anything to make sure this sport is still available for your Grandkids! (I don't have or want any kids)

[yjman]

There is a car show every Saturday night at 83rd ave and Beardsley at the Safeway. Maybe we can meet there once a month and show off the club and talk with folks about offroading. I drove by a few weeks ago and got a lot of looks from the folks with really nice hotrods. My jeep is far from show quality but they were looking. I'll post a run for this once the rain gives up. According to the weather reports we have about 3 more weeks of the wet stuff.

[BobnJeep]

I'd go tonight!

[Hackle]

I agree we need to do more of the show type stuff. That is why I entered mine in the Girl Scout show. It should be good way to show the general public more about us and our vehicles.
Jim F.

[Linda]

It all starts with someone with excellent leadership skills and, of course, money and a vision.

HOG (Harley Owners Group) was started by Willy G. Davidson and the HD Company as a way of improving the image of Harley Davidson and also to get owners of Harley Davidson motorcycles interested in being part of a group. That was a big challenge since Harleys, for the most part, were purchased by people who considered themselves to be independent and didn't care for the gang image that was associated with a few motorcycle clubs. Because of Willy G.'s status in the company he was able to make HOG membership automatic to those who purchased new Harley Davidsons starting in 1984. I purchased my second Harley in 1985 (a 1986 1100 XLH) and became a member. Shortly after that I became a lifetime member. HOG is a wonderful organization. It took awhile to catch hold and I am sure it took a great deal of preserverance on Willy's part. It has become a well respected group that other automotive, motorcycle, ATV manufacturers have used as a model for their own "owner group" clubs.

Not only has HOG been instrumental in making Harley Davidson mainstream, but it also been a 2-way street. HOG members have also been instrumental in model modifications such as lower seat heights for shorter riders, gas tank sizing, comfort features, and paint schemes. We (HOG members) also got the first shot at HD company stock when it went public.

Perhaps DCX could be convinced to sponsor a similar style owners group for Jeep owners.




...
Seriously, I remember 20 years ago we wheeled whereever we wanted, and it was okay. This is not the case anymore. With the drastic increase in shear numbers of people, not only in general population, but in trail usage, we have to evolve as a group, like it or not.

I love your Harley analogy--I have used it frequently. Yesterday's Harley riders were Hells Angels, whereas today's Harley riders are accountants, lawyers, and dentists--Just as yesterday's 4-wheelers were rednecks, whereas the New Jeepers are engineers, programmers, and real estate brokers: more responsible and sensitive to environmental issues. (I am writing an article titled "The New Jeeper".)



Most people in the past that bought 4x4 vehicles did for the same reasons they do today. For getting to remote areas for hunting, fishing, and to take their families camping. A lot of them got their first 4x4 experience in the military and discovered that those vehicles had great value on farms and ranches. I would hardly call those people rednecks. I see more so-called "redneck" activity on the trails now than I did 20 years ago. I guess it is a sign of the times.

[Sedona Jeep School]

I would hardly call those people rednecks. I see more so-called "redneck" activity on the trails now than I did 20 years ago. I guess it is a sign of the times.
I fear I did not clarify that statement very well. I was speaking to perception and image, not necessarily "reality." (It also depends on your perceived definition of "redneck" :D ) The topic of several different threads going right now is "Changing our IMAGE". And I think what we see as MORE "redneck" activity, is actually a reflection of the increase in sheer numbers of people. As a percentage of users, I would guess that "rednecks" have decreased, but as a quantity, everything has increased.

[Linda]

How do you want to portray 4-wheeling? As a family activity? A competitive sport? Environmentally friendly? American legacy? Only for rednecks? Do you what to promote organized 4-wheeling? What????

I see the AzVJC as a mixed bag of all of the above so it might be difficult to come up with a single goal.

Perhaps a snappy bumper sticker saying might be a place to start. :)

[SavageSun4x4]

How do you want to portray 4-wheeling? As a family activity? A competitive sport? Environmentally friendly? American legacy? Only for rednecks? Do you what to promote organized 4-wheeling? What????

I see the AzVJC as a mixed bag of all of the above so it might be difficult to come up with a single goal.

Perhaps a snappy bumper sticker saying might be a place to start. :)
Jeep, Kleenex, Xerox, Coke and soon to be Starbucks they are all related! How? They are verbal ICONS.
"Hey, meet me for a coke or starbucks. [doesn't mean we are going to drink Coca cola or Starbucks coffee}
Can I get a xerox of that page. [I need a copy]
Anybody got jeep who come get me in this snow? [got a 4x4 that can come get me]

If you drive a Jeep, you drive an American Legacy and our image needs to be one of family. Competive sport and environmentally friendly [Tread Lightly] is a subset and all to include rednecks are welcome.

We want to protray, family, and a community involvement. Believe me when we go out and start raising $10M for a charity, it's gets the attention of the Mayor and the community. They see us as the good guys!

[DsrtJeeper]

Don;
Do you plan on running for President anytime soon? I'd sure as heck vote for you! :D Anybody would have been better than our last two choices! :rolleyes:

[SavageSun4x4]

Don;
Do you plan on running for President anytime soon? I'd sure as heck vote for you! :D Anybody would have been better than our last two choices! :rolleyes:
:D LOL no time soon I hope. Albeit, I would take a 24 hour stint as the head guy. Beleive me there would be changes made!

[Hackle]

I thought about this topic tonight after I got home from my Precinct Meeting. It was very nice to sit down with the Speaker of the Arizona State House and my State Senator to talk about the letter I sent them earlier this month on the State Land Dept. They did not understand the problem that well. Once I explained that enforcing the PM10 laws in an Urban area (like 7th St and Deer Valley) is one thing, trying to call the Table Mesa Area Urban is something else.

The point of all this is simple. A year ago I volunteered to be a Precinct Committeeman. I go to one meeting for about 2 hours each month. I get great contact with my State Reps and Senator. When our issues come up they now have a face and a name they can and do ask for information. It is an easy job close to home all we need is more of us to get interested and jump in. I can help you get hooked up with all the info you need.

Jim F.

[SavageSun4x4]

Jim, good stuff!! I might be interested in that in the near future. I guess Scottsdale has the same set up. I am still a Texas resident at this time, but look to be full time Arizona guy soon [I agreed when my wife said she would bury me in Texas when I die].

[Hackle]

I got a PM and maybe two interested parties. I am willing to help all I can.
I got invovled due to a training session by the AMA and the guy doing it was a Harley Rider. This is how they started out. We need to get more people invovled. I was at the State Republicain Convention if we could get 30 OHV people we would be a voting block that others would have to consider. Add in to that if we could get 50 OHV members we could get our issues on the State Ticket. This is how it works!
To me for the last year it has not taken much time and what time I spent was well worth the effort. When I send a Letter and add Precinct Committeman at the bottom I get pretty quick answers even from the US Reps and Senators.
Jim F.

[Hackle]

I want to thank the 4 or 5 people that contacted me on this. I hope as each of you get invovled we can multiply this over and over, but for now just thank you for letting me know that I am not just talking to a wall :D
Jim F.

[1BLKJP]

Hi All,

I have recently read in one of the 4xMags I get of a club that collected all of their old magazines and sent them to the troops in Iraq/Afganistan. I thought this was a good idea as I have several laying around myself.

So another member and I were talking today as to the possibility of putting together an OHV Car Show. It would be similar to what the girls scouts are doing in the beginning of April, but we were looking at an OHV only show. Including a small token for the winners of each category. With categories including Jeeps, Grocery Getters (for you Cherokee fans) :D :D , Trucks, Sand Rails, Quads, and so on. We are imagining a cost of $5 plus either magazines to donate or another $5. The initial 5 would go towards the trophies and other misc. odds and ends that would need to be taken care of. The magazine donation would be obvious or the additional 5 would go towards some sort of care package that we can put together to include for the troops. We would also want to pull judges from the ranks of the club.

In our opinion this provides a feel good story to put the word out. Matt O'Brien I know previously you had conversation with a reporter from the East Valley Tribune so maybe we can even get some coverage from the media and possibly work with the local military presence to have some of their vehicles out there also and present them with the items we are donating.

So what does everyone think? This is an idea that we thought of today and would be willing to bring to fruition, but we need your help also in telling us if you think this is a worthwhile idea to pursue.

[SavageSun4x4]

Jack,
Good idea for a one shot deal. I am thinking that we need to annual-ize it. Several of us have been meeting on this going back several months and are looking at another meeting again in a couple of weeks. I will be posting and any and all are more than welcome.

"sending" baskets to the troops, great idea, I spent 26 years being a troop. However, what we need to do is tag to an annual event and a LOCAL charity effort. That is where you get local repeat coverage begin to lay the foundation for R E S P E C T and credibility. We want:
Every year at the Phoenix/Scottsdale/Mesa/etc _________event, the local AZVJC hosts a ________ for the _________chairty, with proceeds being donated to the Phoenix/Scottsdale/etc, home for/chapter of/local offices of/ etc etc.

Pick something that is local, and a not tied to anything that some people would not support.

Hey, lets give to the home for unwed mothers!
Well HELL they should have never got prego in the first place, I ain't giving a dime of my money!

Hey, lets support our troops.
HELL you say we ought not be there, didn't find no BVDs or nuttin.

On the obverse:

Hey, lets give to the children with AIDS of unwed mothers!
Heck, those poor kids need all the help they can get, how much do you want?

Hey, lets donate to the shelter for disabled Iraq veterans.
Yea, its our duty to help them, they were sent to that crazy war but I'll donate!

I rarely say this and its nowhere to be found on my resume. I took a sabbitical many years ago to donate my time to a higher cause than myself. I spent a year a year and a half as the President of a non-proift charity group. Beleive me its not the same as corp America. I am far from being an expert, but I can speak from some degree of exp. By working together with a common understood goal, we can establish ourselves as credible and gain the respect we need.

It can't be a one trick pony, it must be repeatable and viable. So as it carries on after we are gone and driving cars that sit lower than a snake and use less gas than it takes to push a piss-ants motor scooter around his ant hill.

[KingGlamis]

I got a PM and maybe two interested parties. I am willing to help all I can.
I got invovled due to a training session by the AMA and the guy doing it was a Harley Rider. This is how they started out. We need to get more people invovled. I was at the State Republicain Convention if we could get 30 OHV people we would be a voting block that others would have to consider. Add in to that if we could get 50 OHV members we could get our issues on the State Ticket. This is how it works!
To me for the last year it has not taken much time and what time I spent was well worth the effort. When I send a Letter and add Precinct Committeman at the bottom I get pretty quick answers even from the US Reps and Senators.
Jim F.

Jim, first off, thank you for all that it sounds like you have done and are doing. Second, I've never heard of the voting block or getting issues on the State Ticket. This interests me greatly. Could you please point me to a place where I can read more about these things? (I'm from CA, only been in AZ for a year and a half. It sounds to me like AZ has a different way of doing things, as I have attended many public land use type meetings in CA and never heard of this).

Thanks,
Doug

[KingGlamis]

So another member and I were talking today as to the possibility of putting together an OHV Car Show. It would be similar to what the girls scouts are doing in the beginning of April, but we were looking at an OHV only show. Including a small token for the winners of each category. With categories including Jeeps, Grocery Getters (for you Cherokee fans) :D :D , Trucks, Sand Rails, Quads, and so on.

I would be willing to help out with the OHV show for sure. I have many recreational friends as well as industry friends with all sorts of toys. Heck, I work for a company that sells dune buggies that would make a good showing. Not trying to promote my company here, but we do sell some impressive machines. Our starting price is $80,000 and we have built dune buggies as high as $125,000-$150,000. In other words, putting 2 or 4 of our buggies at a show definitely draws attention.

But I also understand the need to appeal to all people with all incomes. I think a show like that should show a huge variety of toys. Heck, my Jeep is only worth about $5000 and my buggy about $20,000. I'm no rich guy for sure.

Good ideas everyone, keep them coming.

[1BLKJP]

Don, I agree with you completely. You are spot on about us needing to latch on to something and make it our own. But I know for a fact that I don't have all of the knowledge of the charities that our members support to make my best educated decision on which one we should make our own. In this day and age with the amount of members we have it will be hard for everyone to hop on and support 1 or 2 causes. Like you said above there are people that are hater on almost everything. Our suggestion for the car show, which I agree could 100% coincide with the Jeep Expo we are trying to put together. But I feel that this is something that we can annualize like the Spook Rallies and so on. And King you are right on track with Chris and I's thinking about involving as many forms as OHV possible. This could help your business it could help all of ours knowledge of the OHV industry as a whole.

My GF also gave me a good idea tonight in regards to maybe an Adopt a Highway plan for us to involve ourselves in. I don't know all of the in's and out's of the program, but I know that the time involved can't be all that much and everyone notices the signs on the highways and roadways where the programs are inacted.

[My1stJeep]

Don,

I agree, an annual event that can be tied to the OHV community coming out and helping will gain exactly what you are talking about.

In no way would I want to derail that show with this one, however I think this would still be a good one to do, it could get us some spot light. Yes some may not support it, but even those who feel we should not be there for the most part support the men and women over there. We could also use this as a dry run to work out any bugs in putting one on for the annual one to come.

There is more than enough room for both to be done, IMO.

[SavageSun4x4]

KingGlamis:
I have to disagree with you on a OHV "show" for everyone. We as a group can't get there from here. Its a Bridge too far. I drink my beer straight up, I don't dilute it with anything. In that light, I feel we need to go in the direction of an "all breeds" Jeep event.

I am sure that your company builds good if not great dune buggies, I am not here to support or feature your dune buggies, or trucks or anything that sez something besides Jeep on it.

1 Lets review the bidding:
2 Must be local [Phoenix].
3 Must be a chairty without vocal naysayers.
4 Must be family oriented.
5 Work/effort must be tied and IDENTIFIED with Jeeps and Jeep people.
6 Must be open to all Jeeps and Jeepers [this means socer moms who drive a Grand that aren't sure what "4x4or OHV" means] as in all breeds. Jeep products, not Ford Jeeps, Willis Jeeps, DC Jeeps, but JEEPS from 1941 to present, any shape, form, fashion, color, race, straights, crooks, gays or happys, we don't care as long as it a Jeep.

Got some folks in my 'hood that have two Jeeps. Never been offroad, never been in 4x4 and don't know what OHV is. There little boy does and he thinks my rig is KOOL. They even stopped to let him look and sit in it. They won't attend an OHV show [don't know what it is]. But dollars to donuts they would attend a all breeds JEEP show thats family and supports a charity.

Having said that King, and others, if you think it should be OHV and buggies on parade then I ain't the one to rain on it. But united we stand, divided we fall.

[My1stJeep]

Don,

I agree United we Stand Divided we fall.

I also agree that we should have a Jeep only event, but I guess my thinking was that would include all 4x4's, Bronco's, Toyota's, etc... They use the same trails and love the same things. By uniting all of them we have a much bigger showing that we are a force to be reconned with. The duners are much farther along in this effort than we are, the organizing part, and it would not be bad to get them in too.

That said, is there enough room for a Jeep only show, and a all OHV show that includes all makes of 4x4 and sand rails, quads etc... , we coud even do a 3rd show that includes bikes, hot rods, etc... (they are under persecution from those who want to put smog equipment on their classics) I think there is, just need to space them out. I agree with Don, the Jeep only show should follow his suggestions, be a charity that no one will argue with, is family oriented, etc... he was right on. The other show could have a little more room as you will have a bigger fan base, but I think it should follow his suggestions pretty closely.

Yes this is a big undertaking, I have put on many of these in years past for charities and they all made a nice splash. Did one for Jody Hunter, one for a girl with leukemia, one for a children's hospital for handicapped children, one for a person hurt in a motorcylce accident and the list goes on from there, point being, during those years we often put on 2-4 shows in a single year and that did not hurt our attendance. We just have to figure out what and how far we want to reach.

I for one am all for having especially the Duners come out, uniting with them would be a huge benefit in my eyes.

[SavageSun4x4]

Chris, after reading your post, I can see clearly why your tag line is "4 bangers rule"! :D

Here is my take on your post: I would be afraid that the powers that be just wouldn't allow it. Part of the problem in the OHV world is the rivalry between groups. I doubt the "_____" are gonna let a bunch of Jeepers throw a party for them.

I have lived here a year in April. I noticed that the capital of Jeeping was a goat screw in terms of organazation, goals and objectives. In addition with all the auto focused events in the area Jeeps were almost not found. [pick up the local paper, and they have a list of all auto events going on each weekend. YOU would be stunned to see how much is happening out there. On any given weekend there are 5-15 car events happening!]

Part of the problem is no one is in charge. Who is in charge of the AZVJC [which by the way is not a club!!!]? Nobody! Go figure...

I have been posting on this subject of a Jeep "thing" [show, round up, goat screw, etc] since I have been on this board. There are a lot of folks asking the same question I have and we have had one meeting to date to try and sort out a direction [that's when I learned this is not really a club and nobody is in charge]. Lots and lots of fine folks have chimed in, added and suggested. What I have noticed is some of the folks who I thought were "figure heads" in Jeeps around town have never chimed in. Which tells me its not WHO has jumped on the band wagon, but who HASN'T.

You see we can't do this in behalf of AZVJC, it ain't ours, its not a club and no one is in charge.

Fishing: I have been fishing these waters for nearly a year. Tossing out posts to see who bites, looking to see who takes the bait and right now its just us minnows.

Some of us have been talking about a get together to take it further. So I will propose it now:

Sometime the weekend of Mar 11-13, Fri-Sun. Some Sonic or other type drive-in, in a location that is centraly located and close to main roads [51,17,10,101, etc].

I'll let others chime in on exact date, afternoon or eve. OR a better idea???

Ohhh and bring the family too.

[My1stJeep]

Don,

I am just sticking up for the 4 little hamsters under the hood...LOL :D

Not sure I would want to present it as we are throwing a party for them, we would have to get some of them invovled from the get go so they want to be there too. Trust me the guys with the big rails LOVE to show them off.

As for the other 4x4's out there, we have plenty of them who have Scouts, Bronco's, Toyota's, Sami's that are members of the AZVJC and I am sure some of them would attend. Again, if you want it in the news the more participating the bigger splash you get.

Back when I put these on before I was in the mini crowd and when we through charity shows we invited everyone and show in and out the Hot Rods came and gave us the biggest attendance.

As for rivalry, yes there are plenty, but we are all looking to find somethign to bring it together. The duners had the same, bikes, quads, Jeeps and rails. Once they got the ASA going and united them they became a force, I see that we need to do the same, JMO.

In no way am I suggesting changing the show you are trying to put together nor am I trying to sway you to change it, I think it is a great idea. Jack and I were just putting out a feeler about a seperate show that might also help us change our image. To me, no matter what charity you pick, only participating once a year willn ot change our image. We need to participate in as many areas as we can, attending others shows, creating our own, whatever we can do to remain in a positive light as often as we can.

Again, JMO. :D

[Hackle]

Don and others I can only speak for myself at this point, but For the last 4 years I have organized a Jeep 101 class. This year due to being busy with other things I did not post one. I have seen several members post up suggesting one but none step up to the plate to do the work to organize it themselves. I am tired of being one of the few that will step up. From what I have seen of the old gaurd I was the last one to get tired of it. The others stopped a while ago.

A car show is a great idea, but as we seem to have a problem getting people together to orgainze it I suggest making it simple. I have already signed up for the Girl Scout car show (I hope I am not the only one). They do all the set up work and if we can get enough people involved we are seen supporting this organization. Frank has been the spearhead on this event.

I am sure there are a lot of events like this we could (use) and support to further our own agenda. As we gain interest and experience we then could set up our own events. Seems easier to me for a start up. I hope we can in this way get some of the new members to step up take the bull by the horns. To be honest every time I have thrown my hat in the ring to run something I get lots of offers to help. I would just like to see more hats in the ring:)

Jim F.

[1BLKJP]

Everyone has some excellent points today. This is a great discussion and one that hopefully others will join in on.

Jim, I see exactly where you are coming from but at the same time I hate to see people giving up. Yeah we do have to realize that while we might think this is a club it really is only a meeting spot for people who like jeeps. But we are facing challenges of our rights to wheel on public lands now more than ever. Now is when we need the so called "old dogs" to step in an help give us kids some guidance. I in no way have all of the answers. I like to think of myself as a fairly intelligent person, but I can accept help when needed. A lot of you guys have been around a lot longer than some of us that are enthusiastic about these issues, but we need everyone involved if we are to make a dent in the armor of the land managers. With the numbers that we have as registered it can be quite overwhelming to see a good number of us participating in events city wide. If we can draw a crowd to an event like we get at Hunters then we will be doing alright.

Don, I like your idea as well as ours. I even think that we should probably work on putting the first show together as a Jeep Only show. That way we can show all other forms of OHV that we do mean business and then later we can involve them in our dealings as well.

People we need your input. Let us know what charities and causes are close to home for you all. I would really rather put my time and effort into a cause that I know affects a fellow jeeper personally than just picking an issue and feeling like I am forcing it on everyone else.

[SavageSun4x4]

"Party" was just a filler for any event you can think of.

Certainly the AVJC has members who drive it all. But I am going urge all to FOCUS. The objective is Jeep, not all others, don't dilute. Being a motorcycle rider and a Harley rider I wave at all MCs. I'll stop and help any 2 wheeler and do all I can for them. At Bike Week in Daytona, its an all bike event, but at Sturgis its a Harley thing and most don't understand...are you getting where I am coming from on this. I am trying to change an image and that is done by getting Jack 'n Jill 'n kids to show up. Sorry, they don't know what a sand rail is and they don't care, they are not driving one. There are all kinds of venue's that are OHV fests. We NEED to change OUR image, the sand folks have a different agenda. I've been off roading for nearly two weeks and in all that time Jeeps were and have been the majority. We have our own agenda, different from Mud, Sand and other OHV choices.

News is NOT based upon numbers, its based upon news worthy-ness.

I wasn't implying that we only do something once a year. I was saying we have to find something that has legs to it. Not a one trick pony, but an event/charity that is here and will be here next year. A good event is the Susan G Koemen Breast Cancer effort. Susan was a great tennis player who died of breast cancer. She left behind a wonderful husband, Norm Brinker. Norm has a nickel or two in his back pocket [Steak & Ale, Benngian's, Chili's, etc, etc.]. They [Norm and his current wife] have FOCUSED on cancer, Breast cancer. It is one of the most successfull charities around. They don't invite the March of Dimes.

If we want to change our image, then we need to appeal to those folks that think we have an image that they don't care for. They live in Scottsdale, Goodyear, Mesa and Phoenix just to name a few. They have never "wheeled" and few know anyone who does or has. They are they majority. We need to be visible to them, rub shoulders with them and show them who and what we are. Right now we have only one thing in common, JEEP brand. They have no idea what a TJ is or a XJ, YJ or anything else. To most of them its either a Grand or a Liberty. Better figure out how we get them on our side.

I tossed out a meeting, didn't see anyone jumping on the band wagon. What I saw was "we want to do it our way."

FWIW: The ole Cowboy here is 60 years old and not looking to be in charge of squat. Got nothing to prove and if it dies it will be because today's Jeeper doesn't care. I have been pushing the automotive sport for a week or two. I'll help and give all the guidance I can, its your ball, run with as you see fit.

[My1stJeep]

Don,

If all you saw was "we want to do it our way" I apologize you saw it that way. From post number 1 that I posted I only encouraged that we find a way to get other OHV users envolved to get a bigger showing in a seperate event from the one you are planning, and just as all my posts said that is my opinion, doesn't make it right or wrong. I also said I was not trying to change the Jeep only event you started, this would be a seperate event. Last I saw the title to this was Change Our Image so I thought we could post all suggestions on how any of us feel we could accomplish that.

To me I support your efforts for Jeep only, I understand your reasoning and agree. However I think the addition of the types of show(s) I am talking about, seperate from your show, would also help. I in no way was suggesting to or even now suggest a change to yours. This is simply in addition to.

You may still not agree with me and that is cool, we have that right and if you don't want anyone to post other options or opinions in this post then we may want to change the title of it to Jeep only show. I think this is a posting area, by the title, for all ideas, some we may agree with and some we won't, but a place to give up suggestions.

To me it is not do it one way or the other, but rather how we can improve our image as a whole. Keep in mind, many out there don't see a difference in the types of OHV, so rail, quad, Jeep, they are against us all. I think a battle has to be formed to change both opinions, not just Jeepers, but all of OHV. If we change the Jeep image, but not the otehrs our opponents will have divided us, close off the other uses (rails, quads etc...) then when we have no allies they wil lhave no problem shutting us down. Image is a big part of the battle, but again most who don't know or understand OHV lump us all in as one.

As for news you are right, based on news worthyness, however from experince running some charity shows, one question they always wanted was how many vehicles and how many people were coming, it was a factor they used some how, not sure, but was a question they asked. Then again that was awhile ago and things most likely have changed.

Again Just My Opinioin (JMO).

[Hackle]

Hey Jack I did not say I was giving up at all. I am just getting invovled with the things I choose. I am still the only OHV Precinct Commetteman at this time, (hope to change this soon). I am still very invovled with all the Land Use and Agency issues. All of you are stuck with me reminding you of the events you should be at. We need to get a larger turnout at each and every Land Use event and several are on the board for this month.
The other items are what we need new people to step up and build on. We have a large group that went through the Jeep 101 classes and have since built and wheeled well beyond that level. They need to step up and give back to train the next group. I have lead the early bird run to Crown King for the last 4 years this year I doubt I will be going as I can not take the highway home. Bottom line if you see something worth doing do it. Do not wait for someone else to step up to lead. The AZVJC has never had a leader but over the past years when somthing needed to be done the right person stepped up.

[blackeyedt]

This is the direction this group was heading about three years ago when I became involved... As a new Jeep owner, I was incredibly impressed with a number of things in this group. 1- The ongoing success of this "un-organization". 2- The selfless actions of the majority of the "members" with regards to stepping up to the plate. 3- The lack of attitude between different levels of "built-jeeps", newbies, people who love to get out of the city, hardcore rock crawlers. 4- The level of volunteer-ism being incredibly higher than many other organizations/groups that I am/was involved with. 5- The altruistic attitude that was prevalant at every run/meeting/social event.

I was proud of this group at each and every meeting, whether it was at the Park in Payson during the fire relief run, at The many land use meetings that had a significant "red shirt" showing. Many of us got up and spoke off the cuff, and we were good ! The Jeep 101 classes were impressive, i did the desert survival portion at the last one in the White Tanks... We had 4-5 "sessions".. My point here is that the discussions during each session were terrific! All of us were simply interested in makeing our sport/hobby better for all of us ! We used to do a no-host lunch about monthly... Both East side and west side did it for awhile... What was interesting at these was that people actually mingled, and met new people... I felt that I had stumbled upon an incredible group to help me learn about my new hobby and to enjoy it with... The Freeway openings have been good, I have stayed very active, along with some others, at these. We have tried to portray us "jeepers" as good, family oriented, mom and apple pie type of citizens....

So, What happened ???

Before I get slammed here, let me just say....Things change, people change, times change, etc.... The only constant IS change ! I have noticed some attitude beginning to sneak into this group...We no longer seem as interested in public perception as we once were... We don't seem to care as much as we used to. (Or at least to verbalize and act upon need) I see cliques beginning to develop, Ask about specifics and I will tell you, one on one, not en masse as it will then degenerate into a mud-slinging insult fest ! I have seen people leave the group that had been, in my opinion, valuable assets to the synergy of the group... Some due to normal attrition, but others due to "not so nice" circumstances... Now I am sure that I will get some responses telling me to get out and go find somewhere else to exist, and about how I am being negative, so be it... One goal should be to proactively begin a public awareness campaign that includes all of the ideas and issues that have been brought up in this thread...I have never and will never suggest that anyone formally "organize" this group... That has been the strongest point of the group and what has differentiated us from the myriad of 4X4 "Clubs" out there... Nothing wrong with clubs, it has just been amazing how strong this group has proven to be with its "unique style"...

Here is an idea that may gain some support.. Is it possible that, due to time passing, changes in membership demographics, and lots of other changes, it may be time to re-address the mission statement, goals, aims, desires, etc of the current membership ? Are we so large that we are trying to push in many different directions with no direction ? Does this begin to get us a little to close to the dreaded "O-Word" ?? Do we even WANT to create a unified approach to things that have been "bouncing around" this thread ?

As I understand it, this goup was formed on the porch of the old CK Saloon, kind of "created itself" a number of years ago.... I see this group as the best group of its kind, I want to see it stay that way..I keep the sticker on my TJ because I am proud of what we have done and accomplished in years past, and what we can continue to do... from land use issues, charity drives, fun runs, informative workshops, and any other good ideas that come up...

I have stayed out of this thread because I really don't feel as welcome as I once did...maybe it's just me.. I have thick skin, I'll get over it ! If I am offbase here, let me know (I'm sure I'll hear it! and thats OK !)

I'm done... Flame suit on !

Bob J

[My1stJeep]

Bob,

Sorry you don't feel as welcomed as you once did. I too have noticed a change over the last couple years, some good and some maybe not soo good. No slamming from me we all have a right to our opinion.

Not sure if I am catching what you were trying to get at, but I was not trying to say we should organize. Organize an event yes, as for the club I don't even want to be the one to open that can of worms. It comes up now and then, a fence goes up and everyone chooses sides.

I think the intent of this thread is to look for ways and make suggestions on how we can improve our image. Pretty much so open for discussion. I think the whole point of this thread is to do just what you are talking about, try and make a difference and change our image.

Chime in all you want.

[SavageSun4x4]

Bob, Chris,
Right on! What Bob has seen as a degeneration, I saw in the first few months I was here [one year in April].

To accomplish some things we must organize and have some kind of a structure, become an indentifiable enity.

Something is beginning to work here as we are up to 36 posts. People are thinking and begining to think out loud. The direction we go is up to us, us as in we as a group.

I advocate we decide what we want to do and what we are going to do when we get there.

On a sad note, no one has spoken up and said "yea, I'd like to get with you on this on Mar 12 as some Sonic someplace."

Here is how it goes:
1 think about it
2 talk about it
3 get together and start to do something about it

Guess we are still hung up at 1 & 2!

[Linda]

I think what has the best chance of succeeding Jim's (Hackle) idea of a grassroots lobbying group. I don't know what it would take to do that, most likely money and someone willing to take on a leadership role in getting it started. Making sure that our elected leaders are aware of the recreation and economic benefit of 4-wheeling in Arizona is important.

Perhaps a Jeep show at the Arizona State Capitol Complex or Wesley Bolin Plaza while the legislature is in session would be something to think about. They see the 4x4 magazines in the stores, but I wonder how many of those people have seen a rock crawler in real life. I wonder if they know how much a modified 4x4 costs to build, maintain, and of course all the other things that go along with it like a trailer, truck or motorhome, etc.. It's nice to send them a note that says $3.4 million dollars are spent on the sport each year. If you got a letter claiming that much is being spent, wouldn't you like to know where and how? Perhaps what they need to be shown is a few real life examples on how much money a family can spend on OHV recreation and where the money goes.

[My1stJeep]

Don I am cool with meeting on the 12th, if we can do it at the DVHS car show... :D

Let me know if anyone is interested in attending/meeting at the car show.

[My1stJeep]

Ok, not sure how good a news this is or if it will happen for sure, but wanted to get input and it goes with changing our image.

I have signed up for the "Are you man enough to be a girl scout car show" on April 2nd. I had some questions so I called Rachel, she is awesome. Througha few conversations she asked if I had any pics of what we do or our rigs. I sent her a few, she loved them and thought it was awesome. They are EXTREMELY excited about our participation in there show, so much so that she contacted the Arizona Republic about getting an article in, I am sure about the car show but more specifically about our rigs. She said to keep my fingers crossed for them to contact me, but I think it was awesome of her to even go that far and try to get the AZ Republic to go for it.

So then the next question anyone got some ideas on how to approach them when answering questions? I know in the past and still are I am sure not very OHV friendly, so any good ideas or words of wisdom, thoughts etc... if we are lucky enough that they do contact me would be GREATLY appreciated. Also if I can swing it anyone want to be there?

No victory yet, but maybe a step leading in the right direction, us contacting them will never amount to anything, but if organizations like the Girl Scouts contact them on our behalf about what a great gropu we are it might help.

[blackeyedt]

Hope you get a reply, over the last few years, a number of things have been sent to them and we did recieve a small story about the fire relief run to Payson but I think that was it !! ... We probably don't constitute a big enough audience and therefore are not newsworthy by ourselves, only in accordance with another 'Good Deed" type of thing...

[My1stJeep]

I agree, we are small peanuts in their eyes, that and they have always been a very green entity. To me that was why this was kinda cool, instead of them hearing from us wanting exposure or whatever we want to call it, a reputable group from outside called.

I see this as good on two fronts. One the person in the republic may be worried a little more about appearance since this was coming from the girl scouts, doubtful, but maybe. Second is that a person who knew nothing about what we do was moved enough to make the call. To me when we say we want to change our image that is what we are shooting for, she does not see us as the beer drinking, run over that spotted lizard, drive over that bush redneck that alot of "Joe public" sees us as. When our stories do make it public here is another person in our corner. One at a time, so we have another 6 million here in Arizona to reach.

I saw it as a positive, but want to hear what other think and if they do how they think it should be approached. I want to make it a good thing, something we can build off of as a report with the paper, so I want to hear others ideas, that is if it happens.