Support ORBA membership with small membership charge?

[azdesertrhino]

Sorry, there is a spelling error in the poll question and I don't know how to fix it. Should be "OFFER".

I've been watching the ORBA Donations for awhile (and donated a couple of times myself) and it sure took a lot of time to get to, what I hope, is the amount needed to support John in this membership. I know this is yearly membership but feel it is important to protect our trails etc and to have a member associated with ORBA.
I was thinking of the OPTION of an actual membership to the AZVJC website that would give actual paying members access to areas where non paying forum users don't have access to. This money could be used to help with the ORBA membership, help defray costs etc.
Not sure what areas could be designated as "Members Only" etc, just thinking out loud.
Looking to the group for feedback on this issue. We really need to have a legal voice in trail issues.

[ChrisK]

I fixed the title but had to shorten AZVJC to VJC to fit it in.

[azdesertrhino]

Thanks Chris, I couldn't find a way in to fix it after I realized I screwed it up!

[BobnJeep]

I'm going to list my first thoughts without editing them:

1) I like the thought of doing good with the monies.
2) It will lower the member count, by getting rid of "non-serious" or "non-active" members. (I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing since it matters not to me as far as I know)
3) It may be only the begining of "Red Tape" and future problems over money property and prestige.
4) It could open the door for site sponsors to give discounts or donations for member purchases. (i.e. Members of AZVJC purchase this product and we will donate $25 to ORAB.)
5) Could make "General Discussion" public and make everything else a pay per use. Meaning, each link would be a nominal fee. ("For Sale" $2/year, "For Trade" $2/year, FSJ $1/year).

Forget the fact that I own an FSJ.

[SavageSun4x4]

Retain the "General", "Sale/wanted" and "Jobs wanted/Help needed". Members have access to all else.

"Pay per use". Won't work. Burden is too much on the admin. AZVJC is not Whopper Burger and you can't have it your way.

[SHNIPE]

Yeah i agree with not paying per forum. I would be willing to pay a membership fee if it would be benefitial to both the group and trail work (or either or) I wont pay for other sites or clubs but this is one that i would happily support

[jeepin_in_az]

Why not just organize and join ASA44WDC?

[Linda]

What exactly is the poll for?

"Support ORBA membership with small membership charge?"

or

"Should VJC offer a membership that gives access to areas non-member could not access?"

[danno]

Given the organization structure of this club... my current vote is no...

If it came down to collecting monies and deciding how they should be used, I would vote yes if there were some kind of elected officer or board structure that could represent the best interests of the club when managing the funds. Its too easy for funds to just "disappear" without a little bit of accountability.

[jeepin_in_az]

Given the organization structure of this club... my current vote is no...

If it came down to collecting monies and deciding how they should be used, I would vote yes if there were some kind of elected officer or board structure that could represent the best interests of the club when managing the funds. Its too easy for funds to just "disappear" without a little bit of accountability.


Correct. And who is the membership into ORBA for? We have several offroad shops on the board, and I think only 1 of them is a member of ORBA (Desert Fab).

[azdesertrhino]

Since before 08-23-04 we have been trying to raise enough funds to support a membership in ORBA for John at Hunter Offroad. If I said the response has been pitiful I would be being too kind.
The idea here was to offer an optional membership which would allow paying members certain benefits that non paying forum users would not have access to.
It's amazing that everyone will get up on their high horse when it comes to whether or not someone has a beer on the trail or whatever but when it comes to trying to keep the tree huggers from closing out trails approximately 30 people vote and 2/3 of the votes are negative and against trying to help with this ORBA Membership.
To be really honest, I don't understand the apathy. Everyone screams and hollers when a trail is closed but very few are willing to do anything about it.

[DsrtJeeper]

Since before 08-23-04 we have been trying to raise enough funds to support a membership in ORBA for John at Hunter Offroad. If I said the response has been pitiful I would be being too kind.
The idea here was to offer an optional membership which would allow paying members certain benefits that non paying forum users would not have access to.
It's amazing that everyone will get up on their high horse when it comes to whether or not someone has a beer on the trail or whatever but when it comes to trying to keep the tree huggers from closing out trails approximately 30 people vote and 2/3 of the votes are negative and against trying to help with this ORBA Membership.
To be really honest, I don't understand the apathy. Everyone screams and hollers when a trail is closed but very few are willing to do anything about it.

First of all; the post was about drinking to excess on the trail. Big difference! This will get the trails closed as well. Think not? Think again!

Second; "Bumpy" has been trying to pay off the remaining amount of Hunter's ORBA fund. Nobody has yet given him a total so he can make good. ORBA thread (http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?t=6114&page=4)

Thirdly; did you ever think that the negative votes were about how the money is to be collected?

[azdesertrhino]

[QUOTE=DsrtJeeper]First of all; the post was about drinking to excess on the trail. Big difference! This will get the trails closed as well. Think not? Think again!

Second; "Bumpy" has been trying to pay off the remaining amount of Hunter's ORBA fund. Nobody has yet given him a total so he can make good. ORBA thread (http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?t=6114&page=4)

Thirdly; did you ever think that the negative votes were about how the money is to be collected?[/QUOTE

I don't believe in drinking and driving period. On the trail or on the road, it doesn't mix, period. That was not my point. The point is what folks take as important enough to respond to and what isn't.

The trails will eventually be closed. The tree huggers are more organized, better funded and more committed to their cause. If people don't step up to the plate, the greenies will eventually win. By the time people realize what is happening it is going to be too late.

For a club of over five hundred members to take 8 months to raise around $500.00 is still pitiful. What will happen next year. I know I threw into the pot 2 or 3 times in an attempt to help out.

With only approx. 12 members willing to do something to stop the trail closures, how the money would be collected is a moot point.

The few that have responded have decided the issue, although, again, I'm surprised by the results and the apathy of the entire group.

[DsrtJeeper]

Given some of the responses to my drinking thread; i'm not one bit surprised at what's happening here. All you have to do is read the crap posted at JU and you'll see the mentality of some wheelers.

I do have a question though.....What is ORBA doing about possible closures at the White Tanks? Some seem to have already accepted that the White Tanks will be closed.

[Linda]

Chances are they aren't doing anything for Arizona except sending letters just like a lot of us do. Their focus is more on federal land issues in California with a little spillover to other states. I doubt it is because they lack presence here. Southern California is much more high profile.

You can read about what ORBA has done in Arizona at their web site. It hasn't changed in quite some time. There are no dates so it is hard to tell how old (new?) the information is.

ORBA membership requirements; however, have changed. If you haven't looked at the ORBA site recently you should. Apparently ORBA is now letting clubs (4x4, OHV) join the ranks. The Az Rock Crawlers and the Nevada United Four Wheelers Association are members.

[danno]

My suggestions...

If AZVJC is to be more organized in an effort to have an effect on land issues, perhaps AZVJC should be a bit more organized itself. Don't get me wrong, I think the virtual club is great and I have enjoyed meeting other members and attending club events. But it might be nice to have a few more events a year like the BBQ at Hunter Offroad.

1.) We could have more club events... Maybe once a month cruise in's at various places throughout the valley (or state if need be)

2.) We could elect a board that would be responsible for distributing donations and have a treasurer responsible for collecting and accounting for donations.

There are advantages to having a "virtual" club... one of them is the avoidance of politics involved in having a defined leadership. However, one of the big disadvantages is lack of organization. It is hard to get a consesus using a discussion board as the only real means of forum and communication. Figuring out to who, when, how much to donate is a bit harder to figure out than it is for someone to come out to a club event and simply open their wallet and take out a few bucks...

[DsrtJeeper]

Chances are they aren't doing anything for Arizona except sending letters just like a lot of us do. Their focus is more on federal land issues in California with a little spillover to other states. I doubt it is because they lack presence here. Southern California is much more high profile.

You can read about what ORBA has done in Arizona at their web site. It hasn't changed in quite some time. There are no dates so it is hard to tell how old (new?) the information is.

ORBA membership requirements; however, have changed. If you haven't looked at the ORBA site recently you should. Apparently ORBA is now letting clubs (4x4, OHV) join the ranks. The Az Rock Crawlers and the Nevada United Four Wheelers Association are members.

If the above is true; how can we expect more local wheelers to donate money to ORBA? For that matter; how do we get more 4x4 shops to join in? When I was of the duning crowd; there was no doubt that the ASA and ORBA were worth joining. It's interesting to note that many of the AZ Rock Crawler members are duners.

[Linda]

If the above is true; how can we expect more local wheelers to donate money to ORBA? For that matter; how do we get more 4x4 shops to join in? When I was of the duning crowd; there was no doubt that the ASA and ORBA were worth joining. It's interesting to note that many of the AZ Rock Crawler members are duners.

Yes, the above is true according to the ORBA website. You can view this same information at http://www.orbanet.org/index.shtml

[LOWTECH]

Ya know guys the way I see it there is already a way to give back something to the guys who run this site and those that work hard at doing things above and beyond, it’s called being a SPONSOR. If ya want to contribute become a SPONSOR and let the guys that work their tails off keeping this thing running make the decisions on what the $ are best spent on.

Come on grow up, you all spend more on wheeling on any given weekend then it cost to be a SPONSOR and if ya are a SPONSOR maybe you should think about upgrading to the next level.

[DsrtJeeper]

Ya know guys the way I see it there is already a way to give back something to the guys who run this site and those that work hard at doing things above and beyond, it’s called being a SPONSOR. If ya want to contribute become a SPONSOR and let the guys that work their tails off keeping this thing running make the decisions on what the $ are best spent on.

Come on grow up, you all spend more on wheeling on any given weekend then it cost to be a SPONSOR and if ya are a SPONSOR maybe you should think about upgrading to the next level.

Where does the sponsorship money go?

[SavageSun4x4]

Be careful about asking, "where does the money go"? I did and was met with a e mail blast that was condescending at best and down right rude at worst.

I feel that if anyone donates to a cause, no matter what the cause is, they are entitled to some answers. In this case, I had made some donations and wanted to make sure that they felt our money was going to a good cause and was good value received. It had been mentioned they were short some money and I was considering another donation large enough to cover the shortfall. I had hoped it would help get the ball rolling on even more donations and possibly bring some other business on board. I have decided that after the confrontation, I will not ask nor will I donate.

Often those who are collecting money forget the importance of treating their constituents well.

My advice is to ask where your money goes and what are the results, be it the donation for New Orleans or to supposedly fight greenies. In other words, no more 9/11 debacles where loans were given to business in N Dakota because less folks from New York visited there. Or the millions raised for relief only to discover that less than 10% goes to help them or us in our fight to save our trails or save our hungry.

[DsrtJeeper]

Be careful about asking, "where does the money go"? I did and was met with a e mail blast that was condescending at best and down right rude at worst.

I feel that if anyone donates to a cause, no matter what the cause is, they are entitled to some answers. In this case, I had made some donations and wanted to make sure that they felt our money was going to a good cause and was good value received. It had been mentioned they were short some money and I was considering another donation large enough to cover the shortfall. I had hoped it would help get the ball rolling on even more donations and possibly bring some other business on board. I have decided that after the confrontation, I will not ask nor will I donate.

Often those who are collecting money forget the importance of treating their constituents well.

My advice is to ask where your money goes and what are the results, be it the donation for New Orleans or to supposedly fight greenies. In other words, no more 9/11 debacles where loans were given to business in N Dakota because less folks from New York visited there. Or the millions raised for relief only to discover that less than 10% goes to help them or us in our fight to save our trails or save our hungry.

Good points Don and exactly why I asked the question.

[azrubyman]

I would support some form of dues <edit> I voted yes <edit>...but like others have said...I would also like some accounting, from the group the we are paying membership for. In this case ORBA.
I will gladly contribute but I will also expect that Arizona issues be brought to the table by our representative and that ORBA supports Arizona more. If I don't like what I see after a year, I will not contribute again until they respond to an Arizona issue.
As a side note...we all seem to blame everything on the "greenies", but when I look around the great state of Arizona...seems to me our biggest threat is the uncontrolled expansion and run away development, not a bunch of Dead Heads in peace beads. Our enemy are the suits and ties that are selling this states soul to the highest bidder. Will ORBA take a stand against them?
Ken

[LOWTECH]

Good points Don and exactly why I asked the question.

Heck they could take it and spend at "HOOTERS" on beer for all I care, the point is they are doing all the work and all you're doing is criticing.

If ya need that much accountability over a few bucks go join the ASA4WDC, they'll take your $'s, talk about it and form commities over it until they forgot that it was for and then use the $ to send some num-skull to Washington.

[DsrtJeeper]

Heck they could take it and spend at "HOOTERS" on beer for all I care, the point is they are doing all the work and all you're doing is criticing.

If ya need that much accountability over a few bucks go join the ASA4WDC, they'll take your $'s, talk about it and form commities over it until they forgot that it was for and then use the $ to send some num-skull to Washington.

Please show me where I criticized in my last post. I'd be willing to bet that the ASA4WDC has done more than you or I ever did. Hackle went to Washington to represent us. Is he a num-skull also?

[Hunter]

Well, I would like to chip in a different view on the ORBA thing. Mostly to address the attitude of, "Well, what have you done for me lately?", regarding Arizona. I have seen some folks comment about the amount of contribution towards Arizona, or maybe the lack of. And if its more "lack", they are not going to support ORBA.

I have to admit, that thought has some good some logic and its kinda hard for me to step in and tell someone I think they are wrong on their view. But I would like it bring up some other points to at least make some of you look at it differently.

For starters, there aren't too many OHV lobbying groups out there. At least not major players in the sense the Blue Ribbon Coal., ORBA, or the American Sand Asc. Now the BLC and ASA are big groups with some pull, but they are still limited. The BLC, does help, but they haven't been that effective. And the ASA, while very effective for their issues, is kinda limited to areas they are concerned about, such as the Ragweed closure in Glamis.

Now why is ORBA good group? Money. Money equals Power. Power leads to time with elected people in office listening. A good group of wheelers in their club fighting the powerful forces of the Greenies doesn't stand a chance. Some Good Ole Boy Offroad club wont pull squat.
Now, take all the business that are wrapped around the OHV world, and you are talking BIG MONEY. For instance, it was estimated that over 9 BILLION dollars was wrapped up in California last year in money spent for OHV use. That's a lot of money. Kinda hard to justify closing trails and areas and loosing that kinda revenue. As long as their have been politics, the politicians listen too big business. With ORBA, all of the OHV business are united into one, and it is a powerful force.

Now, back my original point. "What about Arizona? If I don't see any progress, then I am not going to give them my money." Well, I hate to say it, but guess what, don't hold your breathe for them to come swooping in and saving some trail named after a axle part. There is more going on in California then Arizona as far as ORBA is concerned. But you have too look at it in the grand view. There is what 4 million in AZ? Well there is around like 50 million people in California? For every OHV (4x4's, motorcycles, quads, etc.) shop here, you have about 30 in California. You think we have trail trouble here? Try living in the CA where the Greenies live and breed. CA is the bar. If we, as in the OHV community wins there, we will win here. It will set a precedent that we can use to protect our rights.

How often have they in CA been the first to do something. We can thank them for emissions and non smoking laws. Its the same for this issue. If some trail is gets reopened there, we can use the same argument here. What do you think the Greenies do? If they win a case in CA, some will pop up in Utah, or New Mexico and they will say, "You Honor, we feel the need to close these areas to OHV use. In California they did this in 2005 and have great success bringing back the blah blah blah....... "

Well, that goes both ways and we are finally starting to get some progress. Just another view to the issue. All I ask is, to think about it from the big picture.

Best Regards
John Kanicsar

[DsrtJeeper]

Nice post John and definately headed in the right direction. I think it's a good thing when people want accountability for their moneys spent. It shouldn't be a crime to ask a question. In today's society; we're overwhelmed with money related scams. It's only natural that people are leary of donating without doing their research. I donated to your ORBA fund twice and feel no regrets.

[4 Wheelers Supply]

Take a look at the list of Orba members. There is some Big money there, including several Arizona companies. I feel if you want to donate, great do it but dont feel pressured to do so. Reseach the org. check out what they have done. What I dont like is denying any body access to areas of sites because they dont agree with this or that. Thats why I voted NO. "Remember this is my opinion". Let the flame war continue.

[SavageSun4x4]

John,
If you tell me its a square deal and ask me for a donation, you will get it! However, if anyone else jumps in and blah, blah, I am walking. Your word is good enough for me...That said:

This ole Cowboy has paid his dues on Capitol Hill. Many years ago the BIG boss had a project he wanted developed. He called his number one man in and said put somebody on this and make it happen. That somebody was me. I was given $75k in seed money and the chance to make a major career move and it was all up to me. 8 years passed and I built that original $75k into a $125 million budget and succeeded in getting it approved as a full-blown Federal program.

I cannot tell you the countless trips to the Hill, and the Pentagon. Waiting for hours and sometimes days in front of offices to see a ‘staffer’ or Under- Secretary trying to get resources, justifying resources, seeking approvals and well over a 1000 slide presentations.

In that time I learned what rings their bells. And, John is correct, it is influenced by money. That is not all. Money and a large constituency. Money is great, but it has to translate into people, lots of people must be affected. People are the very reason why they are there.

When they see that that the off road folks spent $30 billion last year in Ca that translates into votes. I can tell you for a fact they don’t give a flip about the businesses, but they do care about the folks that are spending money at those businesses.

All of you have seen my posts on changing our image. The purpose of that is to convey that we do and will vote on issues that are meaningful to us and that we have money to spend on them. How much thinking does it take to realize that a guy riding a Harley, who has over $50k invested in a rig he only rides on weekends in good weather is also a voter. Hello, am I making sense here? In addition, that is the message we need to convey in order to keep our trails open.

One of the things I learn in all those trips and meetings is that you need to offer something in return. If not then you might just as well gone down to the ocean and pee’d in it and then come back and tell all of your supporters that your are making a big splash in China.

I assure you it’s not easy to see folks upon the Hill, but it ain’t hard either, you just got to know how to play the game.

On a final note: You best care where your donations are going and what they are accomplishing, because if you don’t then sooner or later trips to Washington DC become junkets to the DC Hooters on your nickel. Yes, I am concerned because if you look at the past successes you will find they are few and the Greenies down in Tucson are spanking us like redheaded stepchildren.

[LOWTECH]

John,
If you tell me its a square deal and ask me for a donation, you will get it! However, if anyone else jumps in and blah, blah, I am walking. Your word is good enough for me...That said:

This ole Cowboy has paid his dues on Capitol Hill. Many years ago the BIG boss had a project he wanted developed. He called his number one man in and said put somebody on this and make it happen. That somebody was me. I was given $75k in seed money and the chance to make a major career move and it was all up to me. 8 years passed and I built that original $75k into a $125 million budget and succeeded in getting it approved as a full-blown Federal program.

I cannot tell you the countless trips to the Hill, and the Pentagon. Waiting for hours and sometimes days in front of offices to see a ‘staffer’ or Under- Secretary trying to get resources, justifying resources, seeking approvals and well over a 1000 slide presentations.

In that time I learned what rings their bells. And, John is correct, it is influenced by money. That is not all. Money and a large constituency. Money is great, but it has to translate into people, lots of people must be affected. People are the very reason why they are there.

When they see that that the off road folks spent $30 billion last year in Ca that translates into votes. I can tell you for a fact they don’t give a flip about the businesses, but they do care about the folks that are spending money at those businesses.

All of you have seen my posts on changing our image. The purpose of that is to convey that we do and will vote on issues that are meaningful to us and that we have money to spend on them. How much thinking does it take to realize that a guy riding a Harley, who has over $50k invested in a rig he only rides on weekends in good weather is also a voter. Hello, am I making sense here? In addition, that is the message we need to convey in order to keep our trails open.

One of the things I learn in all those trips and meetings is that you need to offer something in return. If not then you might just as well gone down to the ocean and pee’d in it and then come back and tell all of your supporters that your are making a big splash in China.

I assure you it’s not easy to see folks upon the Hill, but it ain’t hard either, you just got to know how to play the game.

On a final note: You best care where your donations are going and what they are accomplishing, because if you don’t then sooner or later trips to Washington DC become junkets to the DC Hooters on your nickel. Yes, I am concerned because if you look at the past successes you will find they are few and the Greenies down in Tucson are spanking us like redheaded stepchildren.

On the final note: Cool now I'm a "Greenies"? ........OK. If they go to HOOTERS on my nickel it's OK by me - just hope they have a good time

[Sedona Jeep School]

I voted NO to the poll.

I agree that ORBA has an important role in trail access.

BUT:

I believe that the most important role of this board and the AZVJC is that anyone can join for FREE, and have access to the information.

This group is the funnel through which people learn important things about all Jeep-related topics. If we charge people for the INFORMATION, there are a countless mulititude who will NEVER get the information. It is a vital role for our sport that a free, easy, and casual introductory entity like the Virtual Jeep Club exists.

Many people start here because it is easy. THEN they can go on to join an organization they like. Many clubs have been incubated here.

Let's keep it easy, casual, unorganized, and free.

[Antman]

I voted no also. This forum shouldnt be used in that way. The AZVJC is unorganized and IMO should stay that way. I have no problem with Hunter or some other member or group coming on here and asking for donations and usually give to such. I'll bet that more funds can be raised by asking than demanding we pay for services. I support this forum 100% and when Joe asks, he'll receive from me. I have no problem paying to use this forum for Joe's hard work to keep it going, but if I'm charged dues cause its a club thing, I will probable be gone.

[Sedona Jeep School]

Dues should not be required, but we could do more to "inform" site visitors about the all-important-but-boring land use issues.

Maybe a solution is to add a Directories page, screened by site admin :

Clubs--a list of Jeep-related clubs, as submitted by active members, with a link and basic info, such as mission, requirements, etc. This makes the connection some of us might be missing from casual browsers to active paying members somewhere.

Associations--a list of associations & coalitions deemed "worthy causes" by the Jeeping community, i.e. ORBA, BRC, AZOHVC (see: http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?t=9852 ) and NPJF (Nena's Personal Jeeping Fund)--kidding about the last one.

This would not be businesses, only non-profits, maybe as the criteria? Or we could hold polls like this one to see who gets listed...

[AZXJ]

I agree with Nena.. This BBS is an effective tool for new and old timmers to get positive information that hopefully will lead them to an organization that will suite thier needs. I personally think an all offroad type of site similar to the Pirate4x4 site could do allot of good, if it didn't get out of had like the Pirate4x4 site does from time to time.. And to Back John's statements.. Pirate4x4.com is a CA site and they are doing great things in the OHV community, when the flame-throwers aren't aimed at newbies... :D