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01-02-2004, 10:24 PM
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11863 From: LindaL <minihummer@w...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 10:03pm
Subject: Re: RE: greenies etc.
Life is not always easy and fun. Politics and outdoor recreation are
becoming more intimate with each other than any of us care to think or
want. There are a lot of people out there who are very serious about
keeping public access to public lands for everybody and not just the
selected few. These include not only outdoor recreationists, but
farmers, ranchers, and everyday people who believe that the government
has overstepped its boundaries by fencing off public lands. I doubt that
you'll find a 4-wheeling newsgroup that doesn't touch on politics these
days. If you do, keep it a secret.
Linda
eandkm@u... wrote:
> God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When I joined
> this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun. I know these issues
> are important to our future of wheelin blah blah blah.........Way to
> much politics here, such a shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with
> this group anymore.
> Erin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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11864 From: Stu Olson <solson8@u...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 10:07pm
Subject: RE: RE: greenies etc.
bye
Stu Olson N7QJP
Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
http://www.qsl.net/n7qjp/
http://home.off-road.com/~stu
http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
Developer of VKE Digital Voice Keyer
-----Original Message-----
From: eandkm@uswest.net [mailto:eandkm@uswest.net]
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 9:13 PM
To: Chatfield, Mike
Cc: 'az_vjc@egroups.com'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] RE: greenies etc.
God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When I joined this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun. I know these issues are important to our future of wheelin blah blah blah.........Way to much politics here, such a shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with this group anymore.
Erin
"Chatfield, Mike" wrote:
Sorry this isn't meant to be a flame, but it is gonna sting a little.
"Every time we talk about staying on the trails and publicly rip into
someone for getting off the trail and tearing up the land we exhibit a bit
of the greenies in all of us."
Part of our responsibility as OHV owners and Public Land Users is to educate
those new to our sport; this may include tactfully "ripping" into someone
about proper land use. If we stand by and watch as they drive off the trail
and tear up the side of a hill they have no business climbing in the first
place, then we are just as guilty as they are. Proper education of OHV users
should be the foundation of our fight against the EcoTerrorists.
"Everyone knows for a fact that you can't let one apple spoil the bunch.
There are some crazies and sane people in every cause. I personally feel
that there needs to be some land closings. I have not been on one trail when
due to the bad apples there has been beer cans and shotgun shells
everywhere. We can't prevent everyone from littering so for awhile the only
solution may be to keep people off."
First you say that you can't let one bad apple spoil the bunch, and then you
say roads should be closed to prevent those idiots from littering up the
countryside. One thing you have to realize is just because the roads are
"closed" doesn't mean that these idiots are going to stop their behavior;
they're still going to drive out there (or somewhere) and drink their beer
and litter up the place. The only thing you've accomplished is closing the
trail to families who have a legitimate right to be there. In addition, it
is usually areas with relatively easy access that have the most trash. In
other words it's not OHV users that are doing this; it is idiots from the
city out in their mom's car, coming out to drink in the middle of nowhere so
they don't get caught because they are underage. Also closing trails will
only increase traffic on the existing trails; then the Greenies will want to
close those trails because of all the damage being done. Soon you'll ask
someone if they've 4 wheeled in Arizona and they'll say "yea, I did all 4
trails in that state."
"If left to human actions this whole state would be overrun with abandoned
shot-gunned vehicles, beer cans and vandalized cacti. Not pretty. There
would be no discipline."
If left to HUMAN actions? I'd hesitate to call the morons who leave this
kind of trash humans. If left to HUMANS, like everyone I've met from AZVJC
on the trails there would be no need for "clean-ups" because we pack out
what we pack in. We take it upon ourselves to clean up the 50+ years of
trash build up in the desert because we care enough about our land to use it
responsibly and do what we need to keep it open for our children's children.
"We have a ton of nice trails open and available. I think this state has
room to set some land aside and preserve it."
The state has set a lot of land aside; all of the land between trails is off
limits to us. Not to mention places where wilderness areas have been
declared, closing existing roads and trails. There is a lot of land out
there without a single tire track on it. There are places where humans have
not stepped foot for hundreds of years, if ever. Existing roads and trails
do not need to be closed to preserve the land.
"Also because we have an opposing thumb doesn't mean we have the right to
squash the owl's. This land isn't ours and our Jeeps alone."
No the land doesn't belong to OHV, it belongs to Ranchers, Hunters, Hikers,
Bikers, Plants, Animals, Insects, Spiders, etc... When there is a valid
endangered species that needs protection, I don't have any problem with
that. However I do have a problem with EcoTerrorists trying to invent
species. Geographical location does not make a new species (as with the
spotted pigmy owl), skin blemishes and discolored hair does not make a new
species, yet EcoTerrorists will swear up and down that these are new species
because of these differences. If this were the case, then there would be
thousands of species of "Human."
My 2.5 cents worth,
- Mike
11865 From: Scott Kruize <osmtj@y...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 10:15pm
Subject: Re: RE: greenies etc.
I agree with Linda. I haven't always agreed with her, but i am seeing the light these days :) I like hearing about land use issues and politics. You can't have Jeeping without the other coming up.
Scott
LindaL wrote:
Life is not always easy and fun. Politics and outdoor recreation are
becoming more intimate with each other than any of us care to think or
want. There are a lot of people out there who are very serious about
keeping public access to public lands for everybody and not just the
selected few. These include not only outdoor recreationists, but
farmers, ranchers, and everyday people who believe that the government
has overstepped its boundaries by fencing off public lands. I doubt that
you'll find a 4-wheeling newsgroup that doesn't touch on politics these
days. If you do, keep it a secret.
Linda
eandkm@uswest.net wrote:
> God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When I joined
> this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun. I know these issues
> are important to our future of wheelin blah blah blah.........Way to
> much politics here, such a shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with
> this group anymore.
> Erin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
11866 From: DougB <azjeep@h...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 10:31pm
Subject: Re: RE: greenies etc. and Red Creek info
I agree Scott. If one expects to go blindly through life w/o knowing (or caring) what's going on around you, then don't complain when the trails are gone. However, since we have the most to lose by trail closures, I really appreciate knowing about issues. This provides me (and others) with the ability to participate and hopefully keep trails open. BTW, all of the forums I subscribe to have regular postings on these issues.
On a related issue, I just rec'd a letter from the Cave Creek Ranger District that appears to indicate that Red Creek trail may not be closed. It's in bureaucratize, so I'm not certain. I plan on calling this week to clarify the content of the letter. I'll advise. If this is true, I think we can clearly say that we played a roll in keeping it open, since many of us wrote letters on this issue.
Specifically, the letter indicates that grazing will be restricted/eliminated around Dutchman's Grave Spring to protect it. Nothing is mentioned about closing off the FR.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Kruize
To: minihummer@worldnet.att.net ; eandkm@uswest.net
Cc: az_vjc@egroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] RE: greenies etc.
I agree with Linda. I haven't always agreed with her, but i am seeing the light these days :) I like hearing about land use issues and politics. You can't have Jeeping without the other coming up.
Scott
LindaL <minihummer@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Life is not always easy and fun. Politics and outdoor recreation are
becoming more intimate with each other than any of us care to think or
want. There are a lot of people out there who are very serious about
keeping public access to public lands for everybody and not just the
selected few. These include not only outdoor recreationists, but
farmers, ranchers, and everyday people who believe that the government
has overstepped its boundaries by fencing off public lands. I doubt that
you'll find a 4-wheeling newsgroup that doesn't touch on politics these
days. If you do, keep it a secret.
Linda
eandkm@uswest.net wrote:
> God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When I joined
> this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun. I know these issues
> are important to our future of wheelin blah blah blah.........Way to
> much politics here, such a shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with
> this group anymore.
> Erin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
11867 From: Nnote <nnote@n...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 0:49am
Subject: Greenies
Hey everyone. Believe me when I say there have been points made I have always agreed with. I am not black or white on this issue or any issue, there's plenty of gray, give and take. Ross said, if they don't use the land what say do they have. I agree. I am proud of our group for doing cleanup runs and will do my best to be at the upcoming ones. We have all been lumped into the group of eco-trashers, since we know the feeling lets not lump all environmentalests into eco-terrorist. Like I said, we all show our environmentalest side when we are out. Lets hope our membership of 300 (and droping?!) can influence the thousands more to follow our cleaner trails example. As far as trails go, I think we should look deeper into the reasons a specific trail is being considered before we protest it. Some are logical, some are reasonless. Regardless, it is good to be informed which trail and when it's being affected (thanks linda). When someone developes a cure for cancer, someone will be there to protest it!
I'll borrow a comment sent to me by someone else who knows who they are.
"I cringe a little when I read some of the stuff on the list about how horrible
it is to protect something like the dwarf owl. What's ironic is that often the
protection is to stop developers from building on the land. Do people expect
to be four wheeling through an apartment complex?"
I take all comments with stride and fully expected the onslaught of remarks. It's no biggie to me. If the owls taste like chicken I wonder what the bears and mountain lions think of us? I wish they could talk. To bad the owl's family can't bring up a posie to shoot us down like we would do to the lions and tigers. Ya, were humans. Powerfull and supreme. So do we run amok with power or have respect for life? I choose equality and respect, which doesn't mean special rights.
I apprecitate some of the private coments sent to me. Thanks all. Maybe we should look into things alittle deeper before we jump.
Nick
Nnote@neta.com
Nnote@juno.com
Attachment: vcard [not shown]
11868 From: Devon Whitney <a74cj6@a...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 7:10am
Subject: Re: greenies etc.
How much for the lamp?
On second thought, it obviously hasn't illuminated your view of the
world around you so it probably wouldn't do much good for anyone else
either.
SeeeeYaaa..
Devon
1974 CJ-6
a74cj6@a...
www.5pillars.com/ucan2
www.homestead.com/a74cj6
--- In az_vjc@egroups.com, <eandkm@u...> wrote:
> Your right Travis, I'm sticking with the xj list from now
> on, this club has lost it's direction and humor. Good bye,
> fellow jeepers, yes I said "JEEP".
> Oh, by the way I have a lamp for sale, is it ok to waste
> space on here and post it?? After all just hit "delete" if
> you don't like it.........................
> Erin
>
> az cattledogg wrote:
>
> >
> > You aint the only one Erin.It is getting out of conrol
> > around hear,I think I
> > may just stay with the XJ list for awhile.
> >
> > >From: <eandkm@u...>
> > >Reply-To: eandkm@u...
> > >To: "Chatfield, Mike" <mchat@h...>
> > >CC: "'az_vjc@egroups.com'" <az_vjc@egroups.com>
> > >Subject: Re: [az_vjc] RE: greenies etc.
> > >Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:13:00 -0700
> > >
> > >God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When
> > I
> > >joined this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun.
> > I
> > >know these issues are important to our future of wheelin
> > >blah blah blah.........Way to much politics here, such a
> > >shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with this group
> > anymore.
> > >Erin
> > >
> > >"Chatfield, Mike" wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sorry this isn't meant to be a flame, but it is gonna
> > > > sting a little.
> > > >
> > > > "Every time we talk about staying on the trails and
> > > > publicly rip into
> > > > someone for getting off the trail and tearing up the
> > land
> > > > we exhibit a bit
> > > > of the greenies in all of us."
> > > >
> > > > Part of our responsibility as OHV owners and Public
> > Land
> > > > Users is to educate
> > > > those new to our sport; this may include tactfully
> > > > "ripping" into someone
> > > > about proper land use. If we stand by and watch as
> > they
> > > > drive off the trail
> > > > and tear up the side of a hill they have no business
> > > > climbing in the first
> > > > place, then we are just as guilty as they are. Proper
> > > > education of OHV users
> > > > should be the foundation of our fight against the
> > > > EcoTerrorists.
> > > >
> > > > "Everyone knows for a fact that you can't let one
> > apple
> > > > spoil the bunch.
> > > > There are some crazies and sane people in every cause.
> > I
> > > > personally feel
> > > > that there needs to be some land closings. I have not
> > been
> > > > on one trail when
> > > > due to the bad apples there has been beer cans and
> > shotgun
> > > > shells
> > > > everywhere. We can't prevent everyone from littering
> > so
> > > > for awhile the only
> > > > solution may be to keep people off."
> > > >
> > > > First you say that you can't let one bad apple spoil
> > the
> > > > bunch, and then you
> > > > say roads should be closed to prevent those idiots
> > from
> > > > littering up the
> > > > countryside. One thing you have to realize is just
> > because
> > > > the roads are
> > > > "closed" doesn't mean that these idiots are going to
> > stop
> > > > their behavior;
> > > > they're still going to drive out there (or somewhere)
> > and
> > > > drink their beer
> > > > and litter up the place. The only thing you've
> > > > accomplished is closing the
> > > > trail to families who have a legitimate right to be
> > there.
> > > > In addition, it
> > > > is usually areas with relatively easy access that have
> > the
> > > > most trash. In
> > > > other words it's not OHV users that are doing this; it
> > is
> > > > idiots from the
> > > > city out in their mom's car, coming out to drink in
> > the
> > > > middle of nowhere so
> > > > they don't get caught because they are underage. Also
> > > > closing trails will
> > > > only increase traffic on the existing trails; then the
> >
> > > > Greenies will want to
> > > > close those trails because of all the damage being
> > done.
> > > > Soon you'll ask
> > > > someone if they've 4 wheeled in Arizona and they'll
> > say
> > > > "yea, I did all 4
> > > > trails in that state."
> > > >
> > > > "If left to human actions this whole state would be
> > > > overrun with abandoned
> > > > shot-gunned vehicles, beer cans and vandalized cacti.
> > Not
> > > > pretty. There
> > > > would be no discipline."
> > > >
> > > > If left to HUMAN actions? I'd hesitate to call the
> > morons
> > > > who leave this
> > > > kind of trash humans. If left to HUMANS, like everyone
> >
> > > > I've met from AZVJC
> > > > on the trails there would be no need for "clean-ups"
> > > > because we pack out
> > > > what we pack in. We take it upon ourselves to clean up
> > the
> > > > 50+ years of
> > > > trash build up in the desert because we care enough
> > about
> > > > our land to use it
> > > > responsibly and do what we need to keep it open for
> > our
> > > > children's children.
> > > >
> > > > "We have a ton of nice trails open and available. I
> > think
> > > > this state has
> > > > room to set some land aside and preserve it."
> > > >
> > > > The state has set a lot of land aside; all of the land
> >
> > > > between trails is off
> > > > limits to us. Not to mention places where wilderness
> > areas
> > > > have been
> > > > declared, closing existing roads and trails. There is
> > a
> > > > lot of land out
> > > > there without a single tire track on it. There are
> > places
> > > > where humans have
> > > > not stepped foot for hundreds of years, if ever.
> > Existing
> > > > roads and trails
> > > > do not need to be closed to preserve the land.
> > > >
> > > > "Also because we have an opposing thumb doesn't mean
> > we
> > > > have the right to
> > > > squash the owl's. This land isn't ours and our Jeeps
> > > > alone."
> > > >
> > > > No the land doesn't belong to OHV, it belongs to
> > Ranchers,
> > > > Hunters, Hikers,
> > > > Bikers, Plants, Animals, Insects, Spiders, etc... When
> >
> > > > there is a valid
> > > > endangered species that needs protection, I don't have
> > any
> > > > problem with
> > > > that. However I do have a problem with EcoTerrorists
> > > > trying to invent
> > > > species. Geographical location does not make a new
> > species
> > > > (as with the
> > > > spotted pigmy owl), skin blemishes and discolored hair
> >
> > > > does not make a new
> > > > species, yet EcoTerrorists will swear up and down that
> >
> > > > these are new species
> > > > because of these differences. If this were the case,
> > then
> > > > there would be
> > > > thousands of species of "Human."
> > > >
> > > > My 2.5 cents worth,
> > > >
> > > > - Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
__________________________________________________ ____________________
_
> >
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> > http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
11869 From: Jon Loveless <jonloveless@m...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 7:20am
Subject: Just Chiming in
Ah, maturity. We have people leaving the group saying such things as "...I
have a lamp for sale...Nighty, night." What's that about? If it is so much
better elsewhere and so intolerable here, please, just leave.
Actually, I love this group. I have recently been on runs with 2 other 4wd
groups. One I won't do again, the other one I will probably join. I will
always be a part of AZ_VJC, though, as long as it survives - (or at least
until I run out of club decals.;-) The land politics issues are critical to
stay in touch with and get involved in. There is better question response
here that even on the news group sometimes, because it is AZ specific. I
also exercise my right to use the Delete key, and do so often. Just a pinky
tap is all it takes.
I have met some wonderful people here and it gives me a chance to help when
I can. I go out somewhere nearly every weekend. I have participated in
several Coves cleanups and unless I get called out of town I will help at
White Tanks this weekend. I have led rides and I have helped new comers
just like I was helped when I first started. And, I do all this while
travelling 150,000 miles a year.
It was good to hear Stu say that he didn't want to wreck his rig by doing
Terminator. That's me also. I drive my Jeep daily and it is the only
vehicle I have. I don't relish the idea of trail fixes and I relish even
less the idea of having to leave my Jeep anywhere while I go for help. So,
I stay with groups and I go on trails where I feel comfortable.
The only thing I miss are the run announcements. Many of the runs have gone
underground and I don't seem to hear about them until after they have been
run. Is this just me?
Face it folks. We have 300+ members and are emphatically not organized.
This place isn't for everyone. You can't control a group like this. Benefit
and tolerate, or leave. It's simple. You don't even have to tell someone
you are leaving. You can leave for a while or leave forever. But you can
bet that if you express an opinion you will get loved and blasted - all
from the same group. It's cool. What better way to get a true diversity of
opinions? Let's just keep on rollin' along.
Jon
------------------------------------------
Jon Loveless
(602)432-7860 cell
(480)816-6240 home
jonloveless@m...
11870 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 7:30pm
Subject: Re: Just Chiming in
AMEN!!
> From: Jon Loveless <jonloveless@m...>
> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 07:20:03 -0700
> To: az_vjc@egroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Just Chiming in
>
> Ah, maturity. We have people leaving the group saying such things as "...I
> have a lamp for sale...Nighty, night." What's that about? If it is so much
> better elsewhere and so intolerable here, please, just leave.
>
> Actually, I love this group. I have recently been on runs with 2 other 4wd
> groups. One I won't do again, the other one I will probably join. I will
> always be a part of AZ_VJC, though, as long as it survives - (or at least
> until I run out of club decals.;-) The land politics issues are critical to
> stay in touch with and get involved in. There is better question response
> here that even on the news group sometimes, because it is AZ specific. I
> also exercise my right to use the Delete key, and do so often. Just a pinky
> tap is all it takes.
>
> I have met some wonderful people here and it gives me a chance to help when
> I can. I go out somewhere nearly every weekend. I have participated in
> several Coves cleanups and unless I get called out of town I will help at
> White Tanks this weekend. I have led rides and I have helped new comers
> just like I was helped when I first started. And, I do all this while
> travelling 150,000 miles a year.
>
> It was good to hear Stu say that he didn't want to wreck his rig by doing
> Terminator. That's me also. I drive my Jeep daily and it is the only
> vehicle I have. I don't relish the idea of trail fixes and I relish even
> less the idea of having to leave my Jeep anywhere while I go for help. So,
> I stay with groups and I go on trails where I feel comfortable.
>
> The only thing I miss are the run announcements. Many of the runs have gone
> underground and I don't seem to hear about them until after they have been
> run. Is this just me?
>
> Face it folks. We have 300+ members and are emphatically not organized.
> This place isn't for everyone. You can't control a group like this. Benefit
> and tolerate, or leave. It's simple. You don't even have to tell someone
> you are leaving. You can leave for a while or leave forever. But you can
> bet that if you express an opinion you will get loved and blasted - all
> from the same group. It's cool. What better way to get a true diversity of
> opinions? Let's just keep on rollin' along.
>
> Jon
>
> ------------------------------------------
> Jon Loveless
> (602)432-7860 cell
> (480)816-6240 home
> jonloveless@m...
>
>
>
>
>
>
11871 From: Jchio - Alloffroad.com <jchio@a...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 7:46am
Subject: Re: Just Chiming in
wow, I would only add that some people spend more time whining on the list than others using the DELETE button,
I agree with you Jon, and hope if I ever get to move to AZ, the AZ_VJC still exists!
Jesus Chio
www.alloffroad.com
Free webpages
http://signup.alloffroad.com
My Eb project
www.alloffroad.com/chio
----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Loveless
To: az_vjc@egroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 9:20 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Just Chiming in
Ah, maturity. We have people leaving the group saying such things as "...I
have a lamp for sale...Nighty, night." What's that about? If it is so much
better elsewhere and so intolerable here, please, just leave.
Actually, I love this group. I have recently been on runs with 2 other 4wd
groups. One I won't do again, the other one I will probably join. I will
always be a part of AZ_VJC, though, as long as it survives - (or at least
until I run out of club decals.;-) The land politics issues are critical to
stay in touch with and get involved in. There is better question response
here that even on the news group sometimes, because it is AZ specific. I
also exercise my right to use the Delete key, and do so often. Just a pinky
tap is all it takes.
I have met some wonderful people here and it gives me a chance to help when
I can. I go out somewhere nearly every weekend. I have participated in
several Coves cleanups and unless I get called out of town I will help at
White Tanks this weekend. I have led rides and I have helped new comers
just like I was helped when I first started. And, I do all this while
travelling 150,000 miles a year.
It was good to hear Stu say that he didn't want to wreck his rig by doing
Terminator. That's me also. I drive my Jeep daily and it is the only
vehicle I have. I don't relish the idea of trail fixes and I relish even
less the idea of having to leave my Jeep anywhere while I go for help. So,
I stay with groups and I go on trails where I feel comfortable.
The only thing I miss are the run announcements. Many of the runs have gone
underground and I don't seem to hear about them until after they have been
run. Is this just me?
Face it folks. We have 300+ members and are emphatically not organized.
This place isn't for everyone. You can't control a group like this. Benefit
and tolerate, or leave. It's simple. You don't even have to tell someone
you are leaving. You can leave for a while or leave forever. But you can
bet that if you express an opinion you will get loved and blasted - all
from the same group. It's cool. What better way to get a true diversity of
opinions? Let's just keep on rollin' along.
Jon
------------------------------------------
Jon Loveless
(602)432-7860 cell
(480)816-6240 home
jonloveless@mindspring.com
11872 From: William Mish <yldkat55@h...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 7:52am
Subject: Re: Re: greenies etc.
TOOOO FUNNNNNY!!!!!!!!!!!
Jeez, is it me, or is everyone around here wound a little tight?
I would suggest a good old fashioned "trail run" to perk up everyone's spirits!
I'll be at Terminator this Friday!
Bill Mish
Yldkat
1955 Willys CJ3B
http://drive.to/yldkat55
----- Original Message -----
From: Devon Whitney
To: az_vjc@egroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 7:10 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: greenies etc.
How much for the lamp?
On second thought, it obviously hasn't illuminated your view of the
world around you so it probably wouldn't do much good for anyone else
either.
SeeeeYaaa..
Devon
1974 CJ-6
a74cj6@aol.com
www.5pillars.com/ucan2
www.homestead.com/a74cj6
--- In az_vjc@egroups.com, <eandkm@u...> wrote:
> Your right Travis, I'm sticking with the xj list from now
> on, this club has lost it's direction and humor. Good bye,
> fellow jeepers, yes I said "JEEP".
> Oh, by the way I have a lamp for sale, is it ok to waste
> space on here and post it?? After all just hit "delete" if
> you don't like it.........................
> Erin
>
> az cattledogg wrote:
>
> >
> > You aint the only one Erin.It is getting out of conrol
> > around hear,I think I
> > may just stay with the XJ list for awhile.
> >
> > >From:
> > >Reply-To: eandkm@u...
> > >To: "Chatfield, Mike"
> > >CC: "'az_vjc@egroups.com'"
> > >Subject: Re: [az_vjc] RE: greenies etc.
> > >Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:13:00 -0700
> > >
> > >God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When
> > I
> > >joined this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun.
> > I
> > >know these issues are important to our future of wheelin
> > >blah blah blah.........Way to much politics here, such a
> > >shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with this group
> > anymore.
> > >Erin
> > >
> > >"Chatfield, Mike" wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sorry this isn't meant to be a flame, but it is gonna
> > > > sting a little.
> > > >
> > > > "Every time we talk about staying on the trails and
> > > > publicly rip into
> > > > someone for getting off the trail and tearing up the
> > land
> > > > we exhibit a bit
> > > > of the greenies in all of us."
> > > >
> > > > Part of our responsibility as OHV owners and Public
> > Land
> > > > Users is to educate
> > > > those new to our sport; this may include tactfully
> > > > "ripping" into someone
> > > > about proper land use. If we stand by and watch as
> > they
> > > > drive off the trail
> > > > and tear up the side of a hill they have no business
> > > > climbing in the first
> > > > place, then we are just as guilty as they are. Proper
> > > > education of OHV users
> > > > should be the foundation of our fight against the
> > > > EcoTerrorists.
> > > >
> > > > "Everyone knows for a fact that you can't let one
> > apple
> > > > spoil the bunch.
> > > > There are some crazies and sane people in every cause.
> > I
> > > > personally feel
> > > > that there needs to be some land closings. I have not
> > been
> > > > on one trail when
> > > > due to the bad apples there has been beer cans and
> > shotgun
> > > > shells
> > > > everywhere. We can't prevent everyone from littering
> > so
> > > > for awhile the only
> > > > solution may be to keep people off."
> > > >
> > > > First you say that you can't let one bad apple spoil
> > the
> > > > bunch, and then you
> > > > say roads should be closed to prevent those idiots
> > from
> > > > littering up the
> > > > countryside. One thing you have to realize is just
> > because
> > > > the roads are
> > > > "closed" doesn't mean that these idiots are going to
> > stop
> > > > their behavior;
> > > > they're still going to drive out there (or somewhere)
> > and
> > > > drink their beer
> > > > and litter up the place. The only thing you've
> > > > accomplished is closing the
> > > > trail to families who have a legitimate right to be
> > there.
> > > > In addition, it
> > > > is usually areas with relatively easy access that have
> > the
> > > > most trash. In
> > > > other words it's not OHV users that are doing this; it
> > is
> > > > idiots from the
> > > > city out in their mom's car, coming out to drink in
> > the
> > > > middle of nowhere so
> > > > they don't get caught because they are underage. Also
> > > > closing trails will
> > > > only increase traffic on the existing trails; then the
> >
> > > > Greenies will want to
> > > > close those trails because of all the damage being
> > done.
> > > > Soon you'll ask
> > > > someone if they've 4 wheeled in Arizona and they'll
> > say
> > > > "yea, I did all 4
> > > > trails in that state."
> > > >
> > > > "If left to human actions this whole state would be
> > > > overrun with abandoned
> > > > shot-gunned vehicles, beer cans and vandalized cacti.
> > Not
> > > > pretty. There
> > > > would be no discipline."
> > > >
> > > > If left to HUMAN actions? I'd hesitate to call the
> > morons
> > > > who leave this
> > > > kind of trash humans. If left to HUMANS, like everyone
> >
> > > > I've met from AZVJC
> > > > on the trails there would be no need for "clean-ups"
> > > > because we pack out
> > > > what we pack in. We take it upon ourselves to clean up
> > the
> > > > 50+ years of
> > > > trash build up in the desert because we care enough
> > about
> > > > our land to use it
> > > > responsibly and do what we need to keep it open for
> > our
> > > > children's children.
> > > >
> > > > "We have a ton of nice trails open and available. I
> > think
> > > > this state has
> > > > room to set some land aside and preserve it."
> > > >
> > > > The state has set a lot of land aside; all of the land
> >
> > > > between trails is off
> > > > limits to us. Not to mention places where wilderness
> > areas
> > > > have been
> > > > declared, closing existing roads and trails. There is
> > a
> > > > lot of land out
> > > > there without a single tire track on it. There are
> > places
> > > > where humans have
> > > > not stepped foot for hundreds of years, if ever.
> > Existing
> > > > roads and trails
> > > > do not need to be closed to preserve the land.
> > > >
> > > > "Also because we have an opposing thumb doesn't mean
> > we
> > > > have the right to
> > > > squash the owl's. This land isn't ours and our Jeeps
> > > > alone."
> > > >
> > > > No the land doesn't belong to OHV, it belongs to
> > Ranchers,
> > > > Hunters, Hikers,
> > > > Bikers, Plants, Animals, Insects, Spiders, etc... When
> >
> > > > there is a valid
> > > > endangered species that needs protection, I don't have
> > any
> > > > problem with
> > > > that. However I do have a problem with EcoTerrorists
> > > > trying to invent
> > > > species. Geographical location does not make a new
> > species
> > > > (as with the
> > > > spotted pigmy owl), skin blemishes and discolored hair
> >
> > > > does not make a new
> > > > species, yet EcoTerrorists will swear up and down that
> >
> > > > these are new species
> > > > because of these differences. If this were the case,
> > then
> > > > there would be
> > > > thousands of species of "Human."
> > > >
> > > > My 2.5 cents worth,
> > > >
> > > > - Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
__________________________________________________ ____________________
_
> >
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> > http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
11873 From: DougB <azjeep@h...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 7:47am
Subject: Re: Re: greenies etc.
Kool. I'll see ya there.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: William Mish
To: Devon Whitney
Cc: AZ_VJC
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 7:52 AM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: greenies etc.
TOOOO FUNNNNNY!!!!!!!!!!!
Jeez, is it me, or is everyone around here wound a little tight?
I would suggest a good old fashioned "trail run" to perk up everyone's spirits!
I'll be at Terminator this Friday!
Bill Mish
Yldkat
1955 Willys CJ3B
http://drive.to/yldkat55
----- Original Message -----
From: Devon Whitney
To: az_vjc@egroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 7:10 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: greenies etc.
How much for the lamp?
On second thought, it obviously hasn't illuminated your view of the
world around you so it probably wouldn't do much good for anyone else
either.
SeeeeYaaa..
Devon
1974 CJ-6
a74cj6@aol.com
www.5pillars.com/ucan2
www.homestead.com/a74cj6
--- In az_vjc@egroups.com, <eandkm@u...> wrote:
> Your right Travis, I'm sticking with the xj list from now
> on, this club has lost it's direction and humor. Good bye,
> fellow jeepers, yes I said "JEEP".
> Oh, by the way I have a lamp for sale, is it ok to waste
> space on here and post it?? After all just hit "delete" if
> you don't like it.........................
> Erin
>
> az cattledogg wrote:
>
> >
> > You aint the only one Erin.It is getting out of conrol
> > around hear,I think I
> > may just stay with the XJ list for awhile.
> >
> > >From:
> > >Reply-To: eandkm@u...
> > >To: "Chatfield, Mike"
> > >CC: "'az_vjc@egroups.com'"
> > >Subject: Re: [az_vjc] RE: greenies etc.
> > >Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:13:00 -0700
> > >
> > >God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When
> > I
> > >joined this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun.
> > I
> > >know these issues are important to our future of wheelin
> > >blah blah blah.........Way to much politics here, such a
> > >shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with this group
> > anymore.
> > >Erin
> > >
> > >"Chatfield, Mike" wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sorry this isn't meant to be a flame, but it is gonna
> > > > sting a little.
> > > >
> > > > "Every time we talk about staying on the trails and
> > > > publicly rip into
> > > > someone for getting off the trail and tearing up the
> > land
> > > > we exhibit a bit
> > > > of the greenies in all of us."
> > > >
> > > > Part of our responsibility as OHV owners and Public
> > Land
> > > > Users is to educate
> > > > those new to our sport; this may include tactfully
> > > > "ripping" into someone
> > > > about proper land use. If we stand by and watch as
> > they
> > > > drive off the trail
> > > > and tear up the side of a hill they have no business
> > > > climbing in the first
> > > > place, then we are just as guilty as they are. Proper
> > > > education of OHV users
> > > > should be the foundation of our fight against the
> > > > EcoTerrorists.
> > > >
> > > > "Everyone knows for a fact that you can't let one
> > apple
> > > > spoil the bunch.
> > > > There are some crazies and sane people in every cause.
> > I
> > > > personally feel
> > > > that there needs to be some land closings. I have not
> > been
> > > > on one trail when
> > > > due to the bad apples there has been beer cans and
> > shotgun
> > > > shells
> > > > everywhere. We can't prevent everyone from littering
> > so
> > > > for awhile the only
> > > > solution may be to keep people off."
> > > >
> > > > First you say that you can't let one bad apple spoil
> > the
> > > > bunch, and then you
> > > > say roads should be closed to prevent those idiots
> > from
> > > > littering up the
> > > > countryside. One thing you have to realize is just
> > because
> > > > the roads are
> > > > "closed" doesn't mean that these idiots are going to
> > stop
> > > > their behavior;
> > > > they're still going to drive out there (or somewhere)
> > and
> > > > drink their beer
> > > > and litter up the place. The only thing you've
> > > > accomplished is closing the
> > > > trail to families who have a legitimate right to be
> > there.
> > > > In addition, it
> > > > is usually areas with relatively easy access that have
> > the
> > > > most trash. In
> > > > other words it's not OHV users that are doing this; it
> > is
> > > > idiots from the
> > > > city out in their mom's car, coming out to drink in
> > the
> > > > middle of nowhere so
> > > > they don't get caught because they are underage. Also
> > > > closing trails will
> > > > only increase traffic on the existing trails; then the
> >
> > > > Greenies will want to
> > > > close those trails because of all the damage being
> > done.
> > > > Soon you'll ask
> > > > someone if they've 4 wheeled in Arizona and they'll
> > say
> > > > "yea, I did all 4
> > > > trails in that state."
> > > >
> > > > "If left to human actions this whole state would be
> > > > overrun with abandoned
> > > > shot-gunned vehicles, beer cans and vandalized cacti.
> > Not
> > > > pretty. There
> > > > would be no discipline."
> > > >
> > > > If left to HUMAN actions? I'd hesitate to call the
> > morons
> > > > who leave this
> > > > kind of trash humans. If left to HUMANS, like everyone
> >
> > > > I've met from AZVJC
> > > > on the trails there would be no need for "clean-ups"
> > > > because we pack out
> > > > what we pack in. We take it upon ourselves to clean up
> > the
> > > > 50+ years of
> > > > trash build up in the desert because we care enough
> > about
> > > > our land to use it
> > > > responsibly and do what we need to keep it open for
> > our
> > > > children's children.
> > > >
> > > > "We have a ton of nice trails open and available. I
> > think
> > > > this state has
> > > > room to set some land aside and preserve it."
> > > >
> > > > The state has set a lot of land aside; all of the land
> >
> > > > between trails is off
> > > > limits to us. Not to mention places where wilderness
> > areas
> > > > have been
> > > > declared, closing existing roads and trails. There is
> > a
> > > > lot of land out
> > > > there without a single tire track on it. There are
> > places
> > > > where humans have
> > > > not stepped foot for hundreds of years, if ever.
> > Existing
> > > > roads and trails
> > > > do not need to be closed to preserve the land.
> > > >
> > > > "Also because we have an opposing thumb doesn't mean
> > we
> > > > have the right to
> > > > squash the owl's. This land isn't ours and our Jeeps
> > > > alone."
> > > >
> > > > No the land doesn't belong to OHV, it belongs to
> > Ranchers,
> > > > Hunters, Hikers,
> > > > Bikers, Plants, Animals, Insects, Spiders, etc... When
> >
> > > > there is a valid
> > > > endangered species that needs protection, I don't have
> > any
> > > > problem with
> > > > that. However I do have a problem with EcoTerrorists
> > > > trying to invent
> > > > species. Geographical location does not make a new
> > species
> > > > (as with the
> > > > spotted pigmy owl), skin blemishes and discolored hair
> >
> > > > does not make a new
> > > > species, yet EcoTerrorists will swear up and down that
> >
> > > > these are new species
> > > > because of these differences. If this were the case,
> > then
> > > > there would be
> > > > thousands of species of "Human."
> > > >
> > > > My 2.5 cents worth,
> > > >
> > > > - Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
__________________________________________________ ____________________
_
> >
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> > http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
11874 From: Chris R. <my1stjeep@e...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 7:46am
Subject: Re: RE: greenies etc.
Erin,
I am sorry you feel that way. However if we do not fight the good fight and
present a united front how do you propose we keep the lands open? If they
close the lands what alternatives can you give us?
Yes several of us have blown off steam directed at the "greenies", knowing
we have an ear here that cares. With around 300 members if everyone posted
something that would be alot of posts, and knowing everyone has an opinion
that could happen.
I don't know where else you would like this information to get to us. To me
approaching the clubs with updates and sometimes blowing off steam makes
clubs the palce to do it. They are the ones that will be affected by it. I
personnaly would not belong to any club that did not want to ge envolved to
preserve our rights.
If this is truly not the club for you I am sorry, I hate to see anyone want
to leave. I also know you cannot make everyone happy and I hope this has
not upset you more, but there is always room for additional clubs, maybe for
those who don't want to get envolved someone could start up the Ostrich
Off-Road Club, Drivers with their heads in the sand on land issues. Just a
thought.
Good luck whatever your decision.
Chris
http://www.hotstuff.alloffroad.com/
My1stJeep@e...
'97 TJ
----------------------------------------------------
"He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a
fool forever."
On Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:13:00 -0700, eandkm@u... wrote:
>
> << File Attachment Removed: "text/html; charset=us-ascii" >>
>
> << File Attachment Removed: "image/gif" >>
__________________________________________________ _____
Say Bye to Slow Internet!
http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html
11875 From: Linda Luik <linda.luik@m...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 7:58am
Subject: Poor engine idle
Now I'm stumped!
Last week I replaced the idle air control motor and the engine idle with
the A/C turned on returned to normal. Now it's back to almost stalling.
I replaced the MAP sensor a week before (it diagnosed outside normal
running parameters). The TPS checked out fine. The coil was recently
replaced. The only sensor not working is the speed sensor -- actually
there's an open in the wiring somewhere. The service manual says it uses
speed sensor input to determine engine idle and fuel requirements. But
at idle? When the speedo is reading 0 (zero)? Come on! Any ideas? I
haven't located the 'open' yet. Getting to the instrument guage
connector means teraring the dash apart and that isn't a fun job.
Linda
Attachment: vcard [not shown]
11876 From: Linda Luik <linda.luik@m...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 8:04am
Subject: Re: Re: greenies etc.
I will be there on Friday. Hope the ZJ is feeling better by then!
Linda
Attachment: vcard [not shown]
11877 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 7:59pm
Subject: Re: Re: greenies etc.
If it starts acting up, I hear that Bill is pretty good at getting ZJs off
the trail.
:-)
Chris
> From: "Linda Luik" <linda.luik@m...>
> Organization: Motorola Semiconductor Products Sector
> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 08:04:07 -0700
> To: DougB <azjeep@h...>
> Cc: William Mish <yldkat55@h...>, AZ_VJC <AZ_VJC@egroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: greenies etc.
>
> I will be there on Friday. Hope the ZJ is feeling better by then!
>
> Linda
>
>
>
>
11878 From: William Mish <yldkat55@h...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 8:40am
Subject: Re: Re: greenies etc.
Ouch!!
Bill Mish
Yldkat
1955 Willys CJ3B
http://drive.to/yldkat55
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Krieg
To: Linda Luik ; AZ_VJC
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: greenies etc.
If it starts acting up, I hear that Bill is pretty good at getting ZJs off
the trail.
:-)
Chris
> From: "Linda Luik" <linda.luik@motorola.com>
> Organization: Motorola Semiconductor Products Sector
> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 08:04:07 -0700
> To: DougB <azjeep@home.com>
> Cc: William Mish <yldkat55@hotmail.com>, AZ_VJC <AZ_VJC@egroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: greenies etc.
>
> I will be there on Friday. Hope the ZJ is feeling better by then!
>
> Linda
>
>
>
>
11879 From: Jon Loveless <jonloveless@m...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 8:51am
Subject: BRC radio and TV spots
*** BLUERIBBON ALERT *** BLUERIBBON ALERT *** BLUERIBBON ALERT ***
Dear Subscriber:
The BlueRibbon Coalition is in the process of producing radio and TV spots to help educate the general public on the Clinton/Gore Roadless Initiative. Later this week we will have available a CD with four 60-second and five 30-second spots for radio use.
By the first of September we expect to have studio quality 3/4" & SVHS tapes of three 30-second TV spots available for distribution. We are looking for BlueRibbon Coalition members and friends who can get these aired on their local radio and TV stations. Some stations may be willing to air these at no charge as Public Service Announcements (PSAs), but others may require they be run as paid ads. If paid ads are necessary we would hope that our local members would be able to cover those costs in their local markets.
Following are the text of the three TV spots, that are also three of the 30-second radio spots. The other spots are similar and this gives you an idea of what we are trying to accomplish. Please contact us at our (800) number if you are willing to help us with this important project.
#1. The BlueRibbon Coalition agrees there are many special places that should be protected. However, they should be protected FOR the public instead of FROM the public. Call your congressional representatives at (202)224-3121 and tell them you oppose the Clinton/Gore Roadless Initiative. For additional information on protecting your recreation access, visit the BlueRibbon Coalition website at www.blueribbon.org or call 1(800)BLUERIB
#2. Your access to your public land is threatened. The Clinton/Gore Roadless Initiative could lock you out of sixty million acres of your public land. Call your congressional representatives at (202)224-3121 and tell them you oppose the Clinton/Gore Roadless Initiative. Tell them you believe our forests should be protected "FOR" the public instead of "FROM" the public. For additional information on protecting your recreation access visit the BlueRibbon Coalition website at www.blueribbon.org or call 1(800)BLUERIB
#3. Our public lands should be open for the enjoyment of the American people. However, the Clinton/Gore administration has conspired with anti-recreation access groups on a major land lock up scheme. Call your congressional representatives at (202)224-3121 and tell them you oppose the Clinton/Gore Roadless Initiative. For additional information on protecting your recreation access visit the BlueRibbon Coalition website at www.blueribbon.org or call 1(800)BLUERIB.
*** END ALERT *** END ALERT *** END ALERT *** END ALERT ***
------------------------------------------
Jon Loveless
(602)432-7860 cell
(480)816-6240 home
jonloveless@mindspring.com
11880 From: Roger Tomas <tomasr@a...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 9:02am
Subject: Re: greenies
Keith,
While I agree that it would have been nice if more people had gone out to help
with the ZJ extraction, that doesn't automatically mean that everyone else is
not contributing to the cause in one way or another. I go wheeling just about
every weekend and I always pack out more than I pack in. Do you? I do my
own part in my own way - I don't feel that I must participate in the organized
clean-ups to contribute. Picking up trash on my own is gratifying enough. In
fact, I think it's better to pick up litter on an ongoing basis rather than
waiting until an area is completely trashed and then having a big clean-up.
This group is big enough that if everyone picked up a few pieces of trash
on each trail run of each weekend, then we'd make a big difference.
-Roger
"keith - alloffroad.com" wrote:
>
> we can all ***** and moan about this till our faces turn blue but we still
> aren;t doing anything I think everybody in the club knows what we are all
> up against but at the same time not many ppl seem to be doing anything I
> understand your all busy but why should we ***** amongst ourselves when we
> could make the public more aware.
>
> I was part of the terminator ZJ removal friday night on the way in I broke
> on the first obstacle instead of stopping there I put my gear into the back
> of another jeep and headed on down the trail when I got there I found Bill
> Mish and bob trenton working hard to cut up the wreckage and they where the
> only ones there I was in a group of 3 jeeps 4 people total a couple other
> ppl showed up but all together there where not more than 8 people there
> after you where all aware of it after many postings
>
> I was very disappointed in everybody that didn;t have a valid excuse.
> even after all three jeeps I was with broke on the way in we still got
> there and worked on cutting up the wreckage then when we where done
> proceeded to fix the jeeps and head out unfortunately it is never this easy
> I ended up camping up there with 2 of the jeeps still broken while
> everybody else was running for parts to get them back up and running. I
> didn;t think rtwice about it cause I was HELPING my fellow jeepers and
> cleaning up the trail so everybody can still see the beauty of the desert
> without having to hike 300 miles to see anything other than CLOSED
> signs!!!!!
>
> Keith
>
> Editor of www.alloffroad.com
11881 From: Linda Luik <linda.luik@m...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 11:05am
Subject: LU - [Fwd: Fw: SOMETHING EVERY STATE NEEDS TO DO.]
Got this from Joan Beck, Bullhead 4WDC. Interesting reading.
Linda
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 10:00:42 MST
From: "fourby" fourby@c...
Subject: Fw: SOMETHING EVERY STATE NEEDS TO DO.
To: <Undisclosed-Recipient:@motgate2.mot.com;>
Apparently-To: "Linda_Luik-P14175@email" p14175@msgphx8
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cane Springs Ranch & Spider Form Systems" <spforms@ctaz.com>
To: <Undisclosed-Recipient:;>
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 3:50 PM
Subject: Fw: SOMETHING EVERY STATE NEEDS TO DO.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rachel Thomas <badger@theriver.com>
> To: a Everyone <badger@theriver.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 6:08 PM
> Subject: SOMETHING EVERY STATE NEEDS TO DO.
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "WILLIAM JUD" <williamjud@hotmail.com>
> > To: <badger@theriver.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 4:15 PM
> > Subject: NEW MISSOURI LAW HELPS PROTECT AGAINST FEDERAL LAND-GRABS
> >
> >
> > > WILLIAM F. JUD 20 AUGUST 2000
> > > 3429 MADISON 423 TELEPHONE (573) 783-8210
> > > FREDERICKTOWN MO 63645 ONE PAGE
> > >
> > >
> > > NEW MISSOURI LAW HELPS PROTECT AGAINST FEDERAL LAND-GRABS
> > >
> > > Missouri Governor Carnahan signed into law House Bill 1082, sponsored
by
> > > Wayne Crump, which requires specific approval of the Missouri
> Legislature
> > > before the federal government is allowed to acquire land in Missouri.
> > >
> > > The Missouri State Assembly Website summarizes the new law as follows:
> > > "FEDERAL LAND ACQUISITION - - This bill requires the federal
government
> to
> > > obtain statutory authorization from the General Assembly before
> acquiring
> > > land in Missouri by eminent domain or condemnation for reforestation,
> > native
> > > American gaming, recreational, or agricultural purposes."
> > >
> > > Although a resounding victory for Missouri property owners, there is
> more
> > > to be done. This new law does not stop federal or state
agencies
> > from
> > > acquiring more land, nor does it stop state and federal agencies from
> > > regulating property to death, thereby creating "willing sellers."
> > > Additional provisions ought to include removal of the property tax and
> > > income tax exemptions now afforded environmental groups and land
trusts
> > > which buy large acreages of land, often for resale at a profit to the
> > > government. Purchase of land by any government agency also ought to
be
> > > subject to approval by the city, county and township in which the land
> is
> > > located. Whenever possible, land acquired by any government agency,
> > > environmental group, or land trust, should be acquired by limited-term
> > > lease, not by purchase or gift. For each acre newly bought, an acre
of
> > > government-owned land should be sold.
> > >
> > > The Conservation And Reinvestment Act (CARA) now awaiting approval by
> the
> > > U.S. Senate is an example of why Mr. Crump's new law is so important
to
> > > private property owners. CARA is supported by Missouri Governor Mel
> > > Carnahan and Missouri Department of Conservation Director Jerry
Conley,
> > and
> > > is co-sponsored and supported by both Missouri Senators John Ashcroft
> and
> > > Kit Bond. CARA would divert approximately $3,000,000,000 each year
for
> 15
> > > years from offshore oil/gas production royalty money now helping to
> > finance
> > > Social Security and pay down the National Debt, and would use much of
> that
> > > money combined with eminent domain authority to condemn, take away and
> > force
> > > private land owners to sell to the government or to a land trust their
> > > homes, farms, ranches or other private property. "Safeguards"
supposed
> to
> > > protect private landowners against government and environmentalist
> > > land-grabs are mainly ineffective window dressing.
> > >
> > > American Land Rights Association in Battle Ground, Washington, offers
> the
> > > following likely results if CARA becomes law: Government agents and
> > > appraisers will get more than $1,000,000,000 EACH YEAR to condemn
> private
> > > property. CARA funds will give private property condemnation higher
> > > priority than health care, medical research and even national defense.
> > > Environmental law firms will get massive grants EACH YEAR to sue
private
> > > landowners into bankruptcy. Environmentalist radicals will gain
> > $60,000,000
> > > EACH YEAR to train an ARMY OF GREEN POLICE to trespass on your land
to
> > find
> > > "endangered species" and restrict or end your use of your land.
Animal
> > > Rights Activists will clamor for money to reintroduce Wolves, kill
> > > livestock, and run cattle ranchers, farmers, inholders and private
> > property
> > > owners off their land. Billions of dollars of private land will be
> taken
> > > off the tax rolls, creating severe cutbacks in local government
services
> > > such as schools and road maintenance, and forcing taxes up for
remaining
> > > property owners. The list goes on, and on. CARA would be a a huge,
> > > bloodless victory for Socialism beyond the wildest dreams of Hitler
and
> > > Stalin, and would be won by using our own greed against us without
> firing
> > a
> > > shot. America is now, because of CARA and environmentalist extremism,
> in
> > > the greatest danger since World War 2.
> > >
> > > CARA will be slowed by Missouri's new law protecting owners of private
> > > property from rampant condemnation and forced sale to the government
of
> > > privately owned land. But the only true protection is to make sure
that
> > > CARA is voted down in the Senate during the next few weeks. Ask your
> > > Senators to VOTE 'NO' ON CARA. Ask also that CARA be voted on as
> single,
> > > stand-alone legislation, and not secretly tacked on as a Amendment or
> > Rider
> > > to an Appropriations bill or other last minute, rush-to-pass
> legislation.
> > > ----------------- end ----------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
__________________________________________________ ______________________
> > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
http://www.hotmail.com
> > >
> > >
> >
>
Attachment: vcard [not shown]
11882 From: T.J. Nosmo-King <ice626@h...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 4:22am
Subject: Re: PLEASE, WE NEED YOUR HELP
How LOW can a person get???....this person(s) needs to have a winch cable
tied to each extremity and pulled apart....slowly...hope someone has a lead
on the perps.....
__________________________________________________ ______________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
11883 From: T.J. Nosmo-King <ice626@h...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 4:27am
Subject: Re: RE: greenies etc.
or you could go to UNSUBCRIBE at egroups.....bye
__________________________________________________ ______________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
11884 From: T.J. Nosmo-King <ice626@h...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 4:37am
Subject: Re: RE: greenies etc.
the Ostrich Off-Road Club????.....too funny :)
__________________________________________________ ______________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
11885 From: Jason Grover <v-jgro@m...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 11:01am
Subject: RE: LU - [Fwd: Fw: SOMETHING EVERY STATE NEEDS TO DO.]
Hey hey hey hey!!! No pertinent political messages allowed here! My keep
talking about Jeeps and trails. But only open trails with no threat of being
closed. And then we can only talk about driving on them and must avoid
discussing trail maintenance. All that talk is NO FUN and must be avoided!
After all, we must be able to have all the fun we want with no
responsibility!
Jason (Before anyone blows a gasket... this was all in jest.. joke..
breath... see.. feels good doesn't it! ;)
-----Original Message-----
From: Linda Luik [mailto:linda.luik@m...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 11:06 AM
To: azvjc
Subject: [az_vjc] LU - [Fwd: Fw: SOMETHING EVERY STATE NEEDS TO DO.]
Got this from Joan Beck, Bullhead 4WDC. Interesting reading.
Linda
11886 From: Stu Olson <solson8@u...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 0:35pm
Subject: RE: RE: greenies etc. and Red Creek info
Doug,
I too received the same letter from the Cave Creek ranger office. I read it several times and I agree with what you said....it would seem that we still have the trail available for use! I agree that there was a bit of double-speak in the letter, and I hope WE got the right info out of it!
Stu
Stu Olson N7QJP
Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
http://home.off-road.com/~stu
-----Original Message-----
From: DougB [mailto:azjeep@home.com]
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 22:31
To: minihummer@worldnet.att.net; eandkm@uswest.net; Scott Kruize
Cc: az_vjc@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] RE: greenies etc. and Red Creek info
I agree Scott. If one expects to go blindly through life w/o knowing (or caring) what's going on around you, then don't complain when the trails are gone. However, since we have the most to lose by trail closures, I really appreciate knowing about issues. This provides me (and others) with the ability to participate and hopefully keep trails open. BTW, all of the forums I subscribe to have regular postings on these issues.
On a related issue, I just rec'd a letter from the Cave Creek Ranger District that appears to indicate that Red Creek trail may not be closed. It's in bureaucratize, so I'm not certain. I plan on calling this week to clarify the content of the letter. I'll advise. If this is true, I think we can clearly say that we played a roll in keeping it open, since many of us wrote letters on this issue.
Specifically, the letter indicates that grazing will be restricted/eliminated around Dutchman's Grave Spring to protect it. Nothing is mentioned about closing off the FR.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Kruize
To: minihummer@worldnet.att.net ; eandkm@uswest.net
Cc: az_vjc@egroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] RE: greenies etc.
I agree with Linda. I haven't always agreed with her, but i am seeing the light these days :) I like hearing about land use issues and politics. You can't have Jeeping without the other coming up.
Scott
LindaL <minihummer@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Life is not always easy and fun. Politics and outdoor recreation are
becoming more intimate with each other than any of us care to think or
want. There are a lot of people out there who are very serious about
keeping public access to public lands for everybody and not just the
selected few. These include not only outdoor recreationists, but
farmers, ranchers, and everyday people who believe that the government
has overstepped its boundaries by fencing off public lands. I doubt that
you'll find a 4-wheeling newsgroup that doesn't touch on politics these
days. If you do, keep it a secret.
Linda
eandkm@uswest.net wrote:
> God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When I joined
> this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun. I know these issues
> are important to our future of wheelin blah blah blah.........Way to
> much politics here, such a shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with
> this group anymore.
> Erin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
11887 From: T.J. Nosmo-King <ice626@h...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 3:52am
Subject: RE: greenies etc.
"This mentality works in the military, where a couple of goof ups end up
getting the crap beat out of them so the entire unit no longer has to suffer
for their screwups."
Stu.....there are very few witnesses on the trail.... :)
__________________________________________________ ______________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
11863 From: LindaL <minihummer@w...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 10:03pm
Subject: Re: RE: greenies etc.
Life is not always easy and fun. Politics and outdoor recreation are
becoming more intimate with each other than any of us care to think or
want. There are a lot of people out there who are very serious about
keeping public access to public lands for everybody and not just the
selected few. These include not only outdoor recreationists, but
farmers, ranchers, and everyday people who believe that the government
has overstepped its boundaries by fencing off public lands. I doubt that
you'll find a 4-wheeling newsgroup that doesn't touch on politics these
days. If you do, keep it a secret.
Linda
eandkm@u... wrote:
> God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When I joined
> this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun. I know these issues
> are important to our future of wheelin blah blah blah.........Way to
> much politics here, such a shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with
> this group anymore.
> Erin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
11864 From: Stu Olson <solson8@u...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 10:07pm
Subject: RE: RE: greenies etc.
bye
Stu Olson N7QJP
Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
http://www.qsl.net/n7qjp/
http://home.off-road.com/~stu
http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
Developer of VKE Digital Voice Keyer
-----Original Message-----
From: eandkm@uswest.net [mailto:eandkm@uswest.net]
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 9:13 PM
To: Chatfield, Mike
Cc: 'az_vjc@egroups.com'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] RE: greenies etc.
God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When I joined this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun. I know these issues are important to our future of wheelin blah blah blah.........Way to much politics here, such a shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with this group anymore.
Erin
"Chatfield, Mike" wrote:
Sorry this isn't meant to be a flame, but it is gonna sting a little.
"Every time we talk about staying on the trails and publicly rip into
someone for getting off the trail and tearing up the land we exhibit a bit
of the greenies in all of us."
Part of our responsibility as OHV owners and Public Land Users is to educate
those new to our sport; this may include tactfully "ripping" into someone
about proper land use. If we stand by and watch as they drive off the trail
and tear up the side of a hill they have no business climbing in the first
place, then we are just as guilty as they are. Proper education of OHV users
should be the foundation of our fight against the EcoTerrorists.
"Everyone knows for a fact that you can't let one apple spoil the bunch.
There are some crazies and sane people in every cause. I personally feel
that there needs to be some land closings. I have not been on one trail when
due to the bad apples there has been beer cans and shotgun shells
everywhere. We can't prevent everyone from littering so for awhile the only
solution may be to keep people off."
First you say that you can't let one bad apple spoil the bunch, and then you
say roads should be closed to prevent those idiots from littering up the
countryside. One thing you have to realize is just because the roads are
"closed" doesn't mean that these idiots are going to stop their behavior;
they're still going to drive out there (or somewhere) and drink their beer
and litter up the place. The only thing you've accomplished is closing the
trail to families who have a legitimate right to be there. In addition, it
is usually areas with relatively easy access that have the most trash. In
other words it's not OHV users that are doing this; it is idiots from the
city out in their mom's car, coming out to drink in the middle of nowhere so
they don't get caught because they are underage. Also closing trails will
only increase traffic on the existing trails; then the Greenies will want to
close those trails because of all the damage being done. Soon you'll ask
someone if they've 4 wheeled in Arizona and they'll say "yea, I did all 4
trails in that state."
"If left to human actions this whole state would be overrun with abandoned
shot-gunned vehicles, beer cans and vandalized cacti. Not pretty. There
would be no discipline."
If left to HUMAN actions? I'd hesitate to call the morons who leave this
kind of trash humans. If left to HUMANS, like everyone I've met from AZVJC
on the trails there would be no need for "clean-ups" because we pack out
what we pack in. We take it upon ourselves to clean up the 50+ years of
trash build up in the desert because we care enough about our land to use it
responsibly and do what we need to keep it open for our children's children.
"We have a ton of nice trails open and available. I think this state has
room to set some land aside and preserve it."
The state has set a lot of land aside; all of the land between trails is off
limits to us. Not to mention places where wilderness areas have been
declared, closing existing roads and trails. There is a lot of land out
there without a single tire track on it. There are places where humans have
not stepped foot for hundreds of years, if ever. Existing roads and trails
do not need to be closed to preserve the land.
"Also because we have an opposing thumb doesn't mean we have the right to
squash the owl's. This land isn't ours and our Jeeps alone."
No the land doesn't belong to OHV, it belongs to Ranchers, Hunters, Hikers,
Bikers, Plants, Animals, Insects, Spiders, etc... When there is a valid
endangered species that needs protection, I don't have any problem with
that. However I do have a problem with EcoTerrorists trying to invent
species. Geographical location does not make a new species (as with the
spotted pigmy owl), skin blemishes and discolored hair does not make a new
species, yet EcoTerrorists will swear up and down that these are new species
because of these differences. If this were the case, then there would be
thousands of species of "Human."
My 2.5 cents worth,
- Mike
11865 From: Scott Kruize <osmtj@y...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 10:15pm
Subject: Re: RE: greenies etc.
I agree with Linda. I haven't always agreed with her, but i am seeing the light these days :) I like hearing about land use issues and politics. You can't have Jeeping without the other coming up.
Scott
LindaL wrote:
Life is not always easy and fun. Politics and outdoor recreation are
becoming more intimate with each other than any of us care to think or
want. There are a lot of people out there who are very serious about
keeping public access to public lands for everybody and not just the
selected few. These include not only outdoor recreationists, but
farmers, ranchers, and everyday people who believe that the government
has overstepped its boundaries by fencing off public lands. I doubt that
you'll find a 4-wheeling newsgroup that doesn't touch on politics these
days. If you do, keep it a secret.
Linda
eandkm@uswest.net wrote:
> God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When I joined
> this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun. I know these issues
> are important to our future of wheelin blah blah blah.........Way to
> much politics here, such a shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with
> this group anymore.
> Erin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
11866 From: DougB <azjeep@h...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 10:31pm
Subject: Re: RE: greenies etc. and Red Creek info
I agree Scott. If one expects to go blindly through life w/o knowing (or caring) what's going on around you, then don't complain when the trails are gone. However, since we have the most to lose by trail closures, I really appreciate knowing about issues. This provides me (and others) with the ability to participate and hopefully keep trails open. BTW, all of the forums I subscribe to have regular postings on these issues.
On a related issue, I just rec'd a letter from the Cave Creek Ranger District that appears to indicate that Red Creek trail may not be closed. It's in bureaucratize, so I'm not certain. I plan on calling this week to clarify the content of the letter. I'll advise. If this is true, I think we can clearly say that we played a roll in keeping it open, since many of us wrote letters on this issue.
Specifically, the letter indicates that grazing will be restricted/eliminated around Dutchman's Grave Spring to protect it. Nothing is mentioned about closing off the FR.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Kruize
To: minihummer@worldnet.att.net ; eandkm@uswest.net
Cc: az_vjc@egroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] RE: greenies etc.
I agree with Linda. I haven't always agreed with her, but i am seeing the light these days :) I like hearing about land use issues and politics. You can't have Jeeping without the other coming up.
Scott
LindaL <minihummer@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Life is not always easy and fun. Politics and outdoor recreation are
becoming more intimate with each other than any of us care to think or
want. There are a lot of people out there who are very serious about
keeping public access to public lands for everybody and not just the
selected few. These include not only outdoor recreationists, but
farmers, ranchers, and everyday people who believe that the government
has overstepped its boundaries by fencing off public lands. I doubt that
you'll find a 4-wheeling newsgroup that doesn't touch on politics these
days. If you do, keep it a secret.
Linda
eandkm@uswest.net wrote:
> God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When I joined
> this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun. I know these issues
> are important to our future of wheelin blah blah blah.........Way to
> much politics here, such a shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with
> this group anymore.
> Erin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
11867 From: Nnote <nnote@n...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 0:49am
Subject: Greenies
Hey everyone. Believe me when I say there have been points made I have always agreed with. I am not black or white on this issue or any issue, there's plenty of gray, give and take. Ross said, if they don't use the land what say do they have. I agree. I am proud of our group for doing cleanup runs and will do my best to be at the upcoming ones. We have all been lumped into the group of eco-trashers, since we know the feeling lets not lump all environmentalests into eco-terrorist. Like I said, we all show our environmentalest side when we are out. Lets hope our membership of 300 (and droping?!) can influence the thousands more to follow our cleaner trails example. As far as trails go, I think we should look deeper into the reasons a specific trail is being considered before we protest it. Some are logical, some are reasonless. Regardless, it is good to be informed which trail and when it's being affected (thanks linda). When someone developes a cure for cancer, someone will be there to protest it!
I'll borrow a comment sent to me by someone else who knows who they are.
"I cringe a little when I read some of the stuff on the list about how horrible
it is to protect something like the dwarf owl. What's ironic is that often the
protection is to stop developers from building on the land. Do people expect
to be four wheeling through an apartment complex?"
I take all comments with stride and fully expected the onslaught of remarks. It's no biggie to me. If the owls taste like chicken I wonder what the bears and mountain lions think of us? I wish they could talk. To bad the owl's family can't bring up a posie to shoot us down like we would do to the lions and tigers. Ya, were humans. Powerfull and supreme. So do we run amok with power or have respect for life? I choose equality and respect, which doesn't mean special rights.
I apprecitate some of the private coments sent to me. Thanks all. Maybe we should look into things alittle deeper before we jump.
Nick
Nnote@neta.com
Nnote@juno.com
Attachment: vcard [not shown]
11868 From: Devon Whitney <a74cj6@a...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 7:10am
Subject: Re: greenies etc.
How much for the lamp?
On second thought, it obviously hasn't illuminated your view of the
world around you so it probably wouldn't do much good for anyone else
either.
SeeeeYaaa..
Devon
1974 CJ-6
a74cj6@a...
www.5pillars.com/ucan2
www.homestead.com/a74cj6
--- In az_vjc@egroups.com, <eandkm@u...> wrote:
> Your right Travis, I'm sticking with the xj list from now
> on, this club has lost it's direction and humor. Good bye,
> fellow jeepers, yes I said "JEEP".
> Oh, by the way I have a lamp for sale, is it ok to waste
> space on here and post it?? After all just hit "delete" if
> you don't like it.........................
> Erin
>
> az cattledogg wrote:
>
> >
> > You aint the only one Erin.It is getting out of conrol
> > around hear,I think I
> > may just stay with the XJ list for awhile.
> >
> > >From: <eandkm@u...>
> > >Reply-To: eandkm@u...
> > >To: "Chatfield, Mike" <mchat@h...>
> > >CC: "'az_vjc@egroups.com'" <az_vjc@egroups.com>
> > >Subject: Re: [az_vjc] RE: greenies etc.
> > >Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:13:00 -0700
> > >
> > >God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When
> > I
> > >joined this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun.
> > I
> > >know these issues are important to our future of wheelin
> > >blah blah blah.........Way to much politics here, such a
> > >shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with this group
> > anymore.
> > >Erin
> > >
> > >"Chatfield, Mike" wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sorry this isn't meant to be a flame, but it is gonna
> > > > sting a little.
> > > >
> > > > "Every time we talk about staying on the trails and
> > > > publicly rip into
> > > > someone for getting off the trail and tearing up the
> > land
> > > > we exhibit a bit
> > > > of the greenies in all of us."
> > > >
> > > > Part of our responsibility as OHV owners and Public
> > Land
> > > > Users is to educate
> > > > those new to our sport; this may include tactfully
> > > > "ripping" into someone
> > > > about proper land use. If we stand by and watch as
> > they
> > > > drive off the trail
> > > > and tear up the side of a hill they have no business
> > > > climbing in the first
> > > > place, then we are just as guilty as they are. Proper
> > > > education of OHV users
> > > > should be the foundation of our fight against the
> > > > EcoTerrorists.
> > > >
> > > > "Everyone knows for a fact that you can't let one
> > apple
> > > > spoil the bunch.
> > > > There are some crazies and sane people in every cause.
> > I
> > > > personally feel
> > > > that there needs to be some land closings. I have not
> > been
> > > > on one trail when
> > > > due to the bad apples there has been beer cans and
> > shotgun
> > > > shells
> > > > everywhere. We can't prevent everyone from littering
> > so
> > > > for awhile the only
> > > > solution may be to keep people off."
> > > >
> > > > First you say that you can't let one bad apple spoil
> > the
> > > > bunch, and then you
> > > > say roads should be closed to prevent those idiots
> > from
> > > > littering up the
> > > > countryside. One thing you have to realize is just
> > because
> > > > the roads are
> > > > "closed" doesn't mean that these idiots are going to
> > stop
> > > > their behavior;
> > > > they're still going to drive out there (or somewhere)
> > and
> > > > drink their beer
> > > > and litter up the place. The only thing you've
> > > > accomplished is closing the
> > > > trail to families who have a legitimate right to be
> > there.
> > > > In addition, it
> > > > is usually areas with relatively easy access that have
> > the
> > > > most trash. In
> > > > other words it's not OHV users that are doing this; it
> > is
> > > > idiots from the
> > > > city out in their mom's car, coming out to drink in
> > the
> > > > middle of nowhere so
> > > > they don't get caught because they are underage. Also
> > > > closing trails will
> > > > only increase traffic on the existing trails; then the
> >
> > > > Greenies will want to
> > > > close those trails because of all the damage being
> > done.
> > > > Soon you'll ask
> > > > someone if they've 4 wheeled in Arizona and they'll
> > say
> > > > "yea, I did all 4
> > > > trails in that state."
> > > >
> > > > "If left to human actions this whole state would be
> > > > overrun with abandoned
> > > > shot-gunned vehicles, beer cans and vandalized cacti.
> > Not
> > > > pretty. There
> > > > would be no discipline."
> > > >
> > > > If left to HUMAN actions? I'd hesitate to call the
> > morons
> > > > who leave this
> > > > kind of trash humans. If left to HUMANS, like everyone
> >
> > > > I've met from AZVJC
> > > > on the trails there would be no need for "clean-ups"
> > > > because we pack out
> > > > what we pack in. We take it upon ourselves to clean up
> > the
> > > > 50+ years of
> > > > trash build up in the desert because we care enough
> > about
> > > > our land to use it
> > > > responsibly and do what we need to keep it open for
> > our
> > > > children's children.
> > > >
> > > > "We have a ton of nice trails open and available. I
> > think
> > > > this state has
> > > > room to set some land aside and preserve it."
> > > >
> > > > The state has set a lot of land aside; all of the land
> >
> > > > between trails is off
> > > > limits to us. Not to mention places where wilderness
> > areas
> > > > have been
> > > > declared, closing existing roads and trails. There is
> > a
> > > > lot of land out
> > > > there without a single tire track on it. There are
> > places
> > > > where humans have
> > > > not stepped foot for hundreds of years, if ever.
> > Existing
> > > > roads and trails
> > > > do not need to be closed to preserve the land.
> > > >
> > > > "Also because we have an opposing thumb doesn't mean
> > we
> > > > have the right to
> > > > squash the owl's. This land isn't ours and our Jeeps
> > > > alone."
> > > >
> > > > No the land doesn't belong to OHV, it belongs to
> > Ranchers,
> > > > Hunters, Hikers,
> > > > Bikers, Plants, Animals, Insects, Spiders, etc... When
> >
> > > > there is a valid
> > > > endangered species that needs protection, I don't have
> > any
> > > > problem with
> > > > that. However I do have a problem with EcoTerrorists
> > > > trying to invent
> > > > species. Geographical location does not make a new
> > species
> > > > (as with the
> > > > spotted pigmy owl), skin blemishes and discolored hair
> >
> > > > does not make a new
> > > > species, yet EcoTerrorists will swear up and down that
> >
> > > > these are new species
> > > > because of these differences. If this were the case,
> > then
> > > > there would be
> > > > thousands of species of "Human."
> > > >
> > > > My 2.5 cents worth,
> > > >
> > > > - Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
__________________________________________________ ____________________
_
> >
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> > http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
11869 From: Jon Loveless <jonloveless@m...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 7:20am
Subject: Just Chiming in
Ah, maturity. We have people leaving the group saying such things as "...I
have a lamp for sale...Nighty, night." What's that about? If it is so much
better elsewhere and so intolerable here, please, just leave.
Actually, I love this group. I have recently been on runs with 2 other 4wd
groups. One I won't do again, the other one I will probably join. I will
always be a part of AZ_VJC, though, as long as it survives - (or at least
until I run out of club decals.;-) The land politics issues are critical to
stay in touch with and get involved in. There is better question response
here that even on the news group sometimes, because it is AZ specific. I
also exercise my right to use the Delete key, and do so often. Just a pinky
tap is all it takes.
I have met some wonderful people here and it gives me a chance to help when
I can. I go out somewhere nearly every weekend. I have participated in
several Coves cleanups and unless I get called out of town I will help at
White Tanks this weekend. I have led rides and I have helped new comers
just like I was helped when I first started. And, I do all this while
travelling 150,000 miles a year.
It was good to hear Stu say that he didn't want to wreck his rig by doing
Terminator. That's me also. I drive my Jeep daily and it is the only
vehicle I have. I don't relish the idea of trail fixes and I relish even
less the idea of having to leave my Jeep anywhere while I go for help. So,
I stay with groups and I go on trails where I feel comfortable.
The only thing I miss are the run announcements. Many of the runs have gone
underground and I don't seem to hear about them until after they have been
run. Is this just me?
Face it folks. We have 300+ members and are emphatically not organized.
This place isn't for everyone. You can't control a group like this. Benefit
and tolerate, or leave. It's simple. You don't even have to tell someone
you are leaving. You can leave for a while or leave forever. But you can
bet that if you express an opinion you will get loved and blasted - all
from the same group. It's cool. What better way to get a true diversity of
opinions? Let's just keep on rollin' along.
Jon
------------------------------------------
Jon Loveless
(602)432-7860 cell
(480)816-6240 home
jonloveless@m...
11870 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 7:30pm
Subject: Re: Just Chiming in
AMEN!!
> From: Jon Loveless <jonloveless@m...>
> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 07:20:03 -0700
> To: az_vjc@egroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Just Chiming in
>
> Ah, maturity. We have people leaving the group saying such things as "...I
> have a lamp for sale...Nighty, night." What's that about? If it is so much
> better elsewhere and so intolerable here, please, just leave.
>
> Actually, I love this group. I have recently been on runs with 2 other 4wd
> groups. One I won't do again, the other one I will probably join. I will
> always be a part of AZ_VJC, though, as long as it survives - (or at least
> until I run out of club decals.;-) The land politics issues are critical to
> stay in touch with and get involved in. There is better question response
> here that even on the news group sometimes, because it is AZ specific. I
> also exercise my right to use the Delete key, and do so often. Just a pinky
> tap is all it takes.
>
> I have met some wonderful people here and it gives me a chance to help when
> I can. I go out somewhere nearly every weekend. I have participated in
> several Coves cleanups and unless I get called out of town I will help at
> White Tanks this weekend. I have led rides and I have helped new comers
> just like I was helped when I first started. And, I do all this while
> travelling 150,000 miles a year.
>
> It was good to hear Stu say that he didn't want to wreck his rig by doing
> Terminator. That's me also. I drive my Jeep daily and it is the only
> vehicle I have. I don't relish the idea of trail fixes and I relish even
> less the idea of having to leave my Jeep anywhere while I go for help. So,
> I stay with groups and I go on trails where I feel comfortable.
>
> The only thing I miss are the run announcements. Many of the runs have gone
> underground and I don't seem to hear about them until after they have been
> run. Is this just me?
>
> Face it folks. We have 300+ members and are emphatically not organized.
> This place isn't for everyone. You can't control a group like this. Benefit
> and tolerate, or leave. It's simple. You don't even have to tell someone
> you are leaving. You can leave for a while or leave forever. But you can
> bet that if you express an opinion you will get loved and blasted - all
> from the same group. It's cool. What better way to get a true diversity of
> opinions? Let's just keep on rollin' along.
>
> Jon
>
> ------------------------------------------
> Jon Loveless
> (602)432-7860 cell
> (480)816-6240 home
> jonloveless@m...
>
>
>
>
>
>
11871 From: Jchio - Alloffroad.com <jchio@a...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 7:46am
Subject: Re: Just Chiming in
wow, I would only add that some people spend more time whining on the list than others using the DELETE button,
I agree with you Jon, and hope if I ever get to move to AZ, the AZ_VJC still exists!
Jesus Chio
www.alloffroad.com
Free webpages
http://signup.alloffroad.com
My Eb project
www.alloffroad.com/chio
----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Loveless
To: az_vjc@egroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 9:20 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Just Chiming in
Ah, maturity. We have people leaving the group saying such things as "...I
have a lamp for sale...Nighty, night." What's that about? If it is so much
better elsewhere and so intolerable here, please, just leave.
Actually, I love this group. I have recently been on runs with 2 other 4wd
groups. One I won't do again, the other one I will probably join. I will
always be a part of AZ_VJC, though, as long as it survives - (or at least
until I run out of club decals.;-) The land politics issues are critical to
stay in touch with and get involved in. There is better question response
here that even on the news group sometimes, because it is AZ specific. I
also exercise my right to use the Delete key, and do so often. Just a pinky
tap is all it takes.
I have met some wonderful people here and it gives me a chance to help when
I can. I go out somewhere nearly every weekend. I have participated in
several Coves cleanups and unless I get called out of town I will help at
White Tanks this weekend. I have led rides and I have helped new comers
just like I was helped when I first started. And, I do all this while
travelling 150,000 miles a year.
It was good to hear Stu say that he didn't want to wreck his rig by doing
Terminator. That's me also. I drive my Jeep daily and it is the only
vehicle I have. I don't relish the idea of trail fixes and I relish even
less the idea of having to leave my Jeep anywhere while I go for help. So,
I stay with groups and I go on trails where I feel comfortable.
The only thing I miss are the run announcements. Many of the runs have gone
underground and I don't seem to hear about them until after they have been
run. Is this just me?
Face it folks. We have 300+ members and are emphatically not organized.
This place isn't for everyone. You can't control a group like this. Benefit
and tolerate, or leave. It's simple. You don't even have to tell someone
you are leaving. You can leave for a while or leave forever. But you can
bet that if you express an opinion you will get loved and blasted - all
from the same group. It's cool. What better way to get a true diversity of
opinions? Let's just keep on rollin' along.
Jon
------------------------------------------
Jon Loveless
(602)432-7860 cell
(480)816-6240 home
jonloveless@mindspring.com
11872 From: William Mish <yldkat55@h...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 7:52am
Subject: Re: Re: greenies etc.
TOOOO FUNNNNNY!!!!!!!!!!!
Jeez, is it me, or is everyone around here wound a little tight?
I would suggest a good old fashioned "trail run" to perk up everyone's spirits!
I'll be at Terminator this Friday!
Bill Mish
Yldkat
1955 Willys CJ3B
http://drive.to/yldkat55
----- Original Message -----
From: Devon Whitney
To: az_vjc@egroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 7:10 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: greenies etc.
How much for the lamp?
On second thought, it obviously hasn't illuminated your view of the
world around you so it probably wouldn't do much good for anyone else
either.
SeeeeYaaa..
Devon
1974 CJ-6
a74cj6@aol.com
www.5pillars.com/ucan2
www.homestead.com/a74cj6
--- In az_vjc@egroups.com, <eandkm@u...> wrote:
> Your right Travis, I'm sticking with the xj list from now
> on, this club has lost it's direction and humor. Good bye,
> fellow jeepers, yes I said "JEEP".
> Oh, by the way I have a lamp for sale, is it ok to waste
> space on here and post it?? After all just hit "delete" if
> you don't like it.........................
> Erin
>
> az cattledogg wrote:
>
> >
> > You aint the only one Erin.It is getting out of conrol
> > around hear,I think I
> > may just stay with the XJ list for awhile.
> >
> > >From:
> > >Reply-To: eandkm@u...
> > >To: "Chatfield, Mike"
> > >CC: "'az_vjc@egroups.com'"
> > >Subject: Re: [az_vjc] RE: greenies etc.
> > >Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:13:00 -0700
> > >
> > >God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When
> > I
> > >joined this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun.
> > I
> > >know these issues are important to our future of wheelin
> > >blah blah blah.........Way to much politics here, such a
> > >shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with this group
> > anymore.
> > >Erin
> > >
> > >"Chatfield, Mike" wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sorry this isn't meant to be a flame, but it is gonna
> > > > sting a little.
> > > >
> > > > "Every time we talk about staying on the trails and
> > > > publicly rip into
> > > > someone for getting off the trail and tearing up the
> > land
> > > > we exhibit a bit
> > > > of the greenies in all of us."
> > > >
> > > > Part of our responsibility as OHV owners and Public
> > Land
> > > > Users is to educate
> > > > those new to our sport; this may include tactfully
> > > > "ripping" into someone
> > > > about proper land use. If we stand by and watch as
> > they
> > > > drive off the trail
> > > > and tear up the side of a hill they have no business
> > > > climbing in the first
> > > > place, then we are just as guilty as they are. Proper
> > > > education of OHV users
> > > > should be the foundation of our fight against the
> > > > EcoTerrorists.
> > > >
> > > > "Everyone knows for a fact that you can't let one
> > apple
> > > > spoil the bunch.
> > > > There are some crazies and sane people in every cause.
> > I
> > > > personally feel
> > > > that there needs to be some land closings. I have not
> > been
> > > > on one trail when
> > > > due to the bad apples there has been beer cans and
> > shotgun
> > > > shells
> > > > everywhere. We can't prevent everyone from littering
> > so
> > > > for awhile the only
> > > > solution may be to keep people off."
> > > >
> > > > First you say that you can't let one bad apple spoil
> > the
> > > > bunch, and then you
> > > > say roads should be closed to prevent those idiots
> > from
> > > > littering up the
> > > > countryside. One thing you have to realize is just
> > because
> > > > the roads are
> > > > "closed" doesn't mean that these idiots are going to
> > stop
> > > > their behavior;
> > > > they're still going to drive out there (or somewhere)
> > and
> > > > drink their beer
> > > > and litter up the place. The only thing you've
> > > > accomplished is closing the
> > > > trail to families who have a legitimate right to be
> > there.
> > > > In addition, it
> > > > is usually areas with relatively easy access that have
> > the
> > > > most trash. In
> > > > other words it's not OHV users that are doing this; it
> > is
> > > > idiots from the
> > > > city out in their mom's car, coming out to drink in
> > the
> > > > middle of nowhere so
> > > > they don't get caught because they are underage. Also
> > > > closing trails will
> > > > only increase traffic on the existing trails; then the
> >
> > > > Greenies will want to
> > > > close those trails because of all the damage being
> > done.
> > > > Soon you'll ask
> > > > someone if they've 4 wheeled in Arizona and they'll
> > say
> > > > "yea, I did all 4
> > > > trails in that state."
> > > >
> > > > "If left to human actions this whole state would be
> > > > overrun with abandoned
> > > > shot-gunned vehicles, beer cans and vandalized cacti.
> > Not
> > > > pretty. There
> > > > would be no discipline."
> > > >
> > > > If left to HUMAN actions? I'd hesitate to call the
> > morons
> > > > who leave this
> > > > kind of trash humans. If left to HUMANS, like everyone
> >
> > > > I've met from AZVJC
> > > > on the trails there would be no need for "clean-ups"
> > > > because we pack out
> > > > what we pack in. We take it upon ourselves to clean up
> > the
> > > > 50+ years of
> > > > trash build up in the desert because we care enough
> > about
> > > > our land to use it
> > > > responsibly and do what we need to keep it open for
> > our
> > > > children's children.
> > > >
> > > > "We have a ton of nice trails open and available. I
> > think
> > > > this state has
> > > > room to set some land aside and preserve it."
> > > >
> > > > The state has set a lot of land aside; all of the land
> >
> > > > between trails is off
> > > > limits to us. Not to mention places where wilderness
> > areas
> > > > have been
> > > > declared, closing existing roads and trails. There is
> > a
> > > > lot of land out
> > > > there without a single tire track on it. There are
> > places
> > > > where humans have
> > > > not stepped foot for hundreds of years, if ever.
> > Existing
> > > > roads and trails
> > > > do not need to be closed to preserve the land.
> > > >
> > > > "Also because we have an opposing thumb doesn't mean
> > we
> > > > have the right to
> > > > squash the owl's. This land isn't ours and our Jeeps
> > > > alone."
> > > >
> > > > No the land doesn't belong to OHV, it belongs to
> > Ranchers,
> > > > Hunters, Hikers,
> > > > Bikers, Plants, Animals, Insects, Spiders, etc... When
> >
> > > > there is a valid
> > > > endangered species that needs protection, I don't have
> > any
> > > > problem with
> > > > that. However I do have a problem with EcoTerrorists
> > > > trying to invent
> > > > species. Geographical location does not make a new
> > species
> > > > (as with the
> > > > spotted pigmy owl), skin blemishes and discolored hair
> >
> > > > does not make a new
> > > > species, yet EcoTerrorists will swear up and down that
> >
> > > > these are new species
> > > > because of these differences. If this were the case,
> > then
> > > > there would be
> > > > thousands of species of "Human."
> > > >
> > > > My 2.5 cents worth,
> > > >
> > > > - Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
__________________________________________________ ____________________
_
> >
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> > http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
11873 From: DougB <azjeep@h...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 7:47am
Subject: Re: Re: greenies etc.
Kool. I'll see ya there.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: William Mish
To: Devon Whitney
Cc: AZ_VJC
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 7:52 AM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: greenies etc.
TOOOO FUNNNNNY!!!!!!!!!!!
Jeez, is it me, or is everyone around here wound a little tight?
I would suggest a good old fashioned "trail run" to perk up everyone's spirits!
I'll be at Terminator this Friday!
Bill Mish
Yldkat
1955 Willys CJ3B
http://drive.to/yldkat55
----- Original Message -----
From: Devon Whitney
To: az_vjc@egroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 7:10 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: greenies etc.
How much for the lamp?
On second thought, it obviously hasn't illuminated your view of the
world around you so it probably wouldn't do much good for anyone else
either.
SeeeeYaaa..
Devon
1974 CJ-6
a74cj6@aol.com
www.5pillars.com/ucan2
www.homestead.com/a74cj6
--- In az_vjc@egroups.com, <eandkm@u...> wrote:
> Your right Travis, I'm sticking with the xj list from now
> on, this club has lost it's direction and humor. Good bye,
> fellow jeepers, yes I said "JEEP".
> Oh, by the way I have a lamp for sale, is it ok to waste
> space on here and post it?? After all just hit "delete" if
> you don't like it.........................
> Erin
>
> az cattledogg wrote:
>
> >
> > You aint the only one Erin.It is getting out of conrol
> > around hear,I think I
> > may just stay with the XJ list for awhile.
> >
> > >From:
> > >Reply-To: eandkm@u...
> > >To: "Chatfield, Mike"
> > >CC: "'az_vjc@egroups.com'"
> > >Subject: Re: [az_vjc] RE: greenies etc.
> > >Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:13:00 -0700
> > >
> > >God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When
> > I
> > >joined this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun.
> > I
> > >know these issues are important to our future of wheelin
> > >blah blah blah.........Way to much politics here, such a
> > >shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with this group
> > anymore.
> > >Erin
> > >
> > >"Chatfield, Mike" wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sorry this isn't meant to be a flame, but it is gonna
> > > > sting a little.
> > > >
> > > > "Every time we talk about staying on the trails and
> > > > publicly rip into
> > > > someone for getting off the trail and tearing up the
> > land
> > > > we exhibit a bit
> > > > of the greenies in all of us."
> > > >
> > > > Part of our responsibility as OHV owners and Public
> > Land
> > > > Users is to educate
> > > > those new to our sport; this may include tactfully
> > > > "ripping" into someone
> > > > about proper land use. If we stand by and watch as
> > they
> > > > drive off the trail
> > > > and tear up the side of a hill they have no business
> > > > climbing in the first
> > > > place, then we are just as guilty as they are. Proper
> > > > education of OHV users
> > > > should be the foundation of our fight against the
> > > > EcoTerrorists.
> > > >
> > > > "Everyone knows for a fact that you can't let one
> > apple
> > > > spoil the bunch.
> > > > There are some crazies and sane people in every cause.
> > I
> > > > personally feel
> > > > that there needs to be some land closings. I have not
> > been
> > > > on one trail when
> > > > due to the bad apples there has been beer cans and
> > shotgun
> > > > shells
> > > > everywhere. We can't prevent everyone from littering
> > so
> > > > for awhile the only
> > > > solution may be to keep people off."
> > > >
> > > > First you say that you can't let one bad apple spoil
> > the
> > > > bunch, and then you
> > > > say roads should be closed to prevent those idiots
> > from
> > > > littering up the
> > > > countryside. One thing you have to realize is just
> > because
> > > > the roads are
> > > > "closed" doesn't mean that these idiots are going to
> > stop
> > > > their behavior;
> > > > they're still going to drive out there (or somewhere)
> > and
> > > > drink their beer
> > > > and litter up the place. The only thing you've
> > > > accomplished is closing the
> > > > trail to families who have a legitimate right to be
> > there.
> > > > In addition, it
> > > > is usually areas with relatively easy access that have
> > the
> > > > most trash. In
> > > > other words it's not OHV users that are doing this; it
> > is
> > > > idiots from the
> > > > city out in their mom's car, coming out to drink in
> > the
> > > > middle of nowhere so
> > > > they don't get caught because they are underage. Also
> > > > closing trails will
> > > > only increase traffic on the existing trails; then the
> >
> > > > Greenies will want to
> > > > close those trails because of all the damage being
> > done.
> > > > Soon you'll ask
> > > > someone if they've 4 wheeled in Arizona and they'll
> > say
> > > > "yea, I did all 4
> > > > trails in that state."
> > > >
> > > > "If left to human actions this whole state would be
> > > > overrun with abandoned
> > > > shot-gunned vehicles, beer cans and vandalized cacti.
> > Not
> > > > pretty. There
> > > > would be no discipline."
> > > >
> > > > If left to HUMAN actions? I'd hesitate to call the
> > morons
> > > > who leave this
> > > > kind of trash humans. If left to HUMANS, like everyone
> >
> > > > I've met from AZVJC
> > > > on the trails there would be no need for "clean-ups"
> > > > because we pack out
> > > > what we pack in. We take it upon ourselves to clean up
> > the
> > > > 50+ years of
> > > > trash build up in the desert because we care enough
> > about
> > > > our land to use it
> > > > responsibly and do what we need to keep it open for
> > our
> > > > children's children.
> > > >
> > > > "We have a ton of nice trails open and available. I
> > think
> > > > this state has
> > > > room to set some land aside and preserve it."
> > > >
> > > > The state has set a lot of land aside; all of the land
> >
> > > > between trails is off
> > > > limits to us. Not to mention places where wilderness
> > areas
> > > > have been
> > > > declared, closing existing roads and trails. There is
> > a
> > > > lot of land out
> > > > there without a single tire track on it. There are
> > places
> > > > where humans have
> > > > not stepped foot for hundreds of years, if ever.
> > Existing
> > > > roads and trails
> > > > do not need to be closed to preserve the land.
> > > >
> > > > "Also because we have an opposing thumb doesn't mean
> > we
> > > > have the right to
> > > > squash the owl's. This land isn't ours and our Jeeps
> > > > alone."
> > > >
> > > > No the land doesn't belong to OHV, it belongs to
> > Ranchers,
> > > > Hunters, Hikers,
> > > > Bikers, Plants, Animals, Insects, Spiders, etc... When
> >
> > > > there is a valid
> > > > endangered species that needs protection, I don't have
> > any
> > > > problem with
> > > > that. However I do have a problem with EcoTerrorists
> > > > trying to invent
> > > > species. Geographical location does not make a new
> > species
> > > > (as with the
> > > > spotted pigmy owl), skin blemishes and discolored hair
> >
> > > > does not make a new
> > > > species, yet EcoTerrorists will swear up and down that
> >
> > > > these are new species
> > > > because of these differences. If this were the case,
> > then
> > > > there would be
> > > > thousands of species of "Human."
> > > >
> > > > My 2.5 cents worth,
> > > >
> > > > - Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
__________________________________________________ ____________________
_
> >
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> > http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
11874 From: Chris R. <my1stjeep@e...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 7:46am
Subject: Re: RE: greenies etc.
Erin,
I am sorry you feel that way. However if we do not fight the good fight and
present a united front how do you propose we keep the lands open? If they
close the lands what alternatives can you give us?
Yes several of us have blown off steam directed at the "greenies", knowing
we have an ear here that cares. With around 300 members if everyone posted
something that would be alot of posts, and knowing everyone has an opinion
that could happen.
I don't know where else you would like this information to get to us. To me
approaching the clubs with updates and sometimes blowing off steam makes
clubs the palce to do it. They are the ones that will be affected by it. I
personnaly would not belong to any club that did not want to ge envolved to
preserve our rights.
If this is truly not the club for you I am sorry, I hate to see anyone want
to leave. I also know you cannot make everyone happy and I hope this has
not upset you more, but there is always room for additional clubs, maybe for
those who don't want to get envolved someone could start up the Ostrich
Off-Road Club, Drivers with their heads in the sand on land issues. Just a
thought.
Good luck whatever your decision.
Chris
http://www.hotstuff.alloffroad.com/
My1stJeep@e...
'97 TJ
----------------------------------------------------
"He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a
fool forever."
On Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:13:00 -0700, eandkm@u... wrote:
>
> << File Attachment Removed: "text/html; charset=us-ascii" >>
>
> << File Attachment Removed: "image/gif" >>
__________________________________________________ _____
Say Bye to Slow Internet!
http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html
11875 From: Linda Luik <linda.luik@m...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 7:58am
Subject: Poor engine idle
Now I'm stumped!
Last week I replaced the idle air control motor and the engine idle with
the A/C turned on returned to normal. Now it's back to almost stalling.
I replaced the MAP sensor a week before (it diagnosed outside normal
running parameters). The TPS checked out fine. The coil was recently
replaced. The only sensor not working is the speed sensor -- actually
there's an open in the wiring somewhere. The service manual says it uses
speed sensor input to determine engine idle and fuel requirements. But
at idle? When the speedo is reading 0 (zero)? Come on! Any ideas? I
haven't located the 'open' yet. Getting to the instrument guage
connector means teraring the dash apart and that isn't a fun job.
Linda
Attachment: vcard [not shown]
11876 From: Linda Luik <linda.luik@m...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 8:04am
Subject: Re: Re: greenies etc.
I will be there on Friday. Hope the ZJ is feeling better by then!
Linda
Attachment: vcard [not shown]
11877 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 7:59pm
Subject: Re: Re: greenies etc.
If it starts acting up, I hear that Bill is pretty good at getting ZJs off
the trail.
:-)
Chris
> From: "Linda Luik" <linda.luik@m...>
> Organization: Motorola Semiconductor Products Sector
> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 08:04:07 -0700
> To: DougB <azjeep@h...>
> Cc: William Mish <yldkat55@h...>, AZ_VJC <AZ_VJC@egroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: greenies etc.
>
> I will be there on Friday. Hope the ZJ is feeling better by then!
>
> Linda
>
>
>
>
11878 From: William Mish <yldkat55@h...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 8:40am
Subject: Re: Re: greenies etc.
Ouch!!
Bill Mish
Yldkat
1955 Willys CJ3B
http://drive.to/yldkat55
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Krieg
To: Linda Luik ; AZ_VJC
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: greenies etc.
If it starts acting up, I hear that Bill is pretty good at getting ZJs off
the trail.
:-)
Chris
> From: "Linda Luik" <linda.luik@motorola.com>
> Organization: Motorola Semiconductor Products Sector
> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 08:04:07 -0700
> To: DougB <azjeep@home.com>
> Cc: William Mish <yldkat55@hotmail.com>, AZ_VJC <AZ_VJC@egroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: greenies etc.
>
> I will be there on Friday. Hope the ZJ is feeling better by then!
>
> Linda
>
>
>
>
11879 From: Jon Loveless <jonloveless@m...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 8:51am
Subject: BRC radio and TV spots
*** BLUERIBBON ALERT *** BLUERIBBON ALERT *** BLUERIBBON ALERT ***
Dear Subscriber:
The BlueRibbon Coalition is in the process of producing radio and TV spots to help educate the general public on the Clinton/Gore Roadless Initiative. Later this week we will have available a CD with four 60-second and five 30-second spots for radio use.
By the first of September we expect to have studio quality 3/4" & SVHS tapes of three 30-second TV spots available for distribution. We are looking for BlueRibbon Coalition members and friends who can get these aired on their local radio and TV stations. Some stations may be willing to air these at no charge as Public Service Announcements (PSAs), but others may require they be run as paid ads. If paid ads are necessary we would hope that our local members would be able to cover those costs in their local markets.
Following are the text of the three TV spots, that are also three of the 30-second radio spots. The other spots are similar and this gives you an idea of what we are trying to accomplish. Please contact us at our (800) number if you are willing to help us with this important project.
#1. The BlueRibbon Coalition agrees there are many special places that should be protected. However, they should be protected FOR the public instead of FROM the public. Call your congressional representatives at (202)224-3121 and tell them you oppose the Clinton/Gore Roadless Initiative. For additional information on protecting your recreation access, visit the BlueRibbon Coalition website at www.blueribbon.org or call 1(800)BLUERIB
#2. Your access to your public land is threatened. The Clinton/Gore Roadless Initiative could lock you out of sixty million acres of your public land. Call your congressional representatives at (202)224-3121 and tell them you oppose the Clinton/Gore Roadless Initiative. Tell them you believe our forests should be protected "FOR" the public instead of "FROM" the public. For additional information on protecting your recreation access visit the BlueRibbon Coalition website at www.blueribbon.org or call 1(800)BLUERIB
#3. Our public lands should be open for the enjoyment of the American people. However, the Clinton/Gore administration has conspired with anti-recreation access groups on a major land lock up scheme. Call your congressional representatives at (202)224-3121 and tell them you oppose the Clinton/Gore Roadless Initiative. For additional information on protecting your recreation access visit the BlueRibbon Coalition website at www.blueribbon.org or call 1(800)BLUERIB.
*** END ALERT *** END ALERT *** END ALERT *** END ALERT ***
------------------------------------------
Jon Loveless
(602)432-7860 cell
(480)816-6240 home
jonloveless@mindspring.com
11880 From: Roger Tomas <tomasr@a...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 9:02am
Subject: Re: greenies
Keith,
While I agree that it would have been nice if more people had gone out to help
with the ZJ extraction, that doesn't automatically mean that everyone else is
not contributing to the cause in one way or another. I go wheeling just about
every weekend and I always pack out more than I pack in. Do you? I do my
own part in my own way - I don't feel that I must participate in the organized
clean-ups to contribute. Picking up trash on my own is gratifying enough. In
fact, I think it's better to pick up litter on an ongoing basis rather than
waiting until an area is completely trashed and then having a big clean-up.
This group is big enough that if everyone picked up a few pieces of trash
on each trail run of each weekend, then we'd make a big difference.
-Roger
"keith - alloffroad.com" wrote:
>
> we can all ***** and moan about this till our faces turn blue but we still
> aren;t doing anything I think everybody in the club knows what we are all
> up against but at the same time not many ppl seem to be doing anything I
> understand your all busy but why should we ***** amongst ourselves when we
> could make the public more aware.
>
> I was part of the terminator ZJ removal friday night on the way in I broke
> on the first obstacle instead of stopping there I put my gear into the back
> of another jeep and headed on down the trail when I got there I found Bill
> Mish and bob trenton working hard to cut up the wreckage and they where the
> only ones there I was in a group of 3 jeeps 4 people total a couple other
> ppl showed up but all together there where not more than 8 people there
> after you where all aware of it after many postings
>
> I was very disappointed in everybody that didn;t have a valid excuse.
> even after all three jeeps I was with broke on the way in we still got
> there and worked on cutting up the wreckage then when we where done
> proceeded to fix the jeeps and head out unfortunately it is never this easy
> I ended up camping up there with 2 of the jeeps still broken while
> everybody else was running for parts to get them back up and running. I
> didn;t think rtwice about it cause I was HELPING my fellow jeepers and
> cleaning up the trail so everybody can still see the beauty of the desert
> without having to hike 300 miles to see anything other than CLOSED
> signs!!!!!
>
> Keith
>
> Editor of www.alloffroad.com
11881 From: Linda Luik <linda.luik@m...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 11:05am
Subject: LU - [Fwd: Fw: SOMETHING EVERY STATE NEEDS TO DO.]
Got this from Joan Beck, Bullhead 4WDC. Interesting reading.
Linda
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 10:00:42 MST
From: "fourby" fourby@c...
Subject: Fw: SOMETHING EVERY STATE NEEDS TO DO.
To: <Undisclosed-Recipient:@motgate2.mot.com;>
Apparently-To: "Linda_Luik-P14175@email" p14175@msgphx8
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cane Springs Ranch & Spider Form Systems" <spforms@ctaz.com>
To: <Undisclosed-Recipient:;>
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 3:50 PM
Subject: Fw: SOMETHING EVERY STATE NEEDS TO DO.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rachel Thomas <badger@theriver.com>
> To: a Everyone <badger@theriver.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 6:08 PM
> Subject: SOMETHING EVERY STATE NEEDS TO DO.
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "WILLIAM JUD" <williamjud@hotmail.com>
> > To: <badger@theriver.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 4:15 PM
> > Subject: NEW MISSOURI LAW HELPS PROTECT AGAINST FEDERAL LAND-GRABS
> >
> >
> > > WILLIAM F. JUD 20 AUGUST 2000
> > > 3429 MADISON 423 TELEPHONE (573) 783-8210
> > > FREDERICKTOWN MO 63645 ONE PAGE
> > >
> > >
> > > NEW MISSOURI LAW HELPS PROTECT AGAINST FEDERAL LAND-GRABS
> > >
> > > Missouri Governor Carnahan signed into law House Bill 1082, sponsored
by
> > > Wayne Crump, which requires specific approval of the Missouri
> Legislature
> > > before the federal government is allowed to acquire land in Missouri.
> > >
> > > The Missouri State Assembly Website summarizes the new law as follows:
> > > "FEDERAL LAND ACQUISITION - - This bill requires the federal
government
> to
> > > obtain statutory authorization from the General Assembly before
> acquiring
> > > land in Missouri by eminent domain or condemnation for reforestation,
> > native
> > > American gaming, recreational, or agricultural purposes."
> > >
> > > Although a resounding victory for Missouri property owners, there is
> more
> > > to be done. This new law does not stop federal or state
agencies
> > from
> > > acquiring more land, nor does it stop state and federal agencies from
> > > regulating property to death, thereby creating "willing sellers."
> > > Additional provisions ought to include removal of the property tax and
> > > income tax exemptions now afforded environmental groups and land
trusts
> > > which buy large acreages of land, often for resale at a profit to the
> > > government. Purchase of land by any government agency also ought to
be
> > > subject to approval by the city, county and township in which the land
> is
> > > located. Whenever possible, land acquired by any government agency,
> > > environmental group, or land trust, should be acquired by limited-term
> > > lease, not by purchase or gift. For each acre newly bought, an acre
of
> > > government-owned land should be sold.
> > >
> > > The Conservation And Reinvestment Act (CARA) now awaiting approval by
> the
> > > U.S. Senate is an example of why Mr. Crump's new law is so important
to
> > > private property owners. CARA is supported by Missouri Governor Mel
> > > Carnahan and Missouri Department of Conservation Director Jerry
Conley,
> > and
> > > is co-sponsored and supported by both Missouri Senators John Ashcroft
> and
> > > Kit Bond. CARA would divert approximately $3,000,000,000 each year
for
> 15
> > > years from offshore oil/gas production royalty money now helping to
> > finance
> > > Social Security and pay down the National Debt, and would use much of
> that
> > > money combined with eminent domain authority to condemn, take away and
> > force
> > > private land owners to sell to the government or to a land trust their
> > > homes, farms, ranches or other private property. "Safeguards"
supposed
> to
> > > protect private landowners against government and environmentalist
> > > land-grabs are mainly ineffective window dressing.
> > >
> > > American Land Rights Association in Battle Ground, Washington, offers
> the
> > > following likely results if CARA becomes law: Government agents and
> > > appraisers will get more than $1,000,000,000 EACH YEAR to condemn
> private
> > > property. CARA funds will give private property condemnation higher
> > > priority than health care, medical research and even national defense.
> > > Environmental law firms will get massive grants EACH YEAR to sue
private
> > > landowners into bankruptcy. Environmentalist radicals will gain
> > $60,000,000
> > > EACH YEAR to train an ARMY OF GREEN POLICE to trespass on your land
to
> > find
> > > "endangered species" and restrict or end your use of your land.
Animal
> > > Rights Activists will clamor for money to reintroduce Wolves, kill
> > > livestock, and run cattle ranchers, farmers, inholders and private
> > property
> > > owners off their land. Billions of dollars of private land will be
> taken
> > > off the tax rolls, creating severe cutbacks in local government
services
> > > such as schools and road maintenance, and forcing taxes up for
remaining
> > > property owners. The list goes on, and on. CARA would be a a huge,
> > > bloodless victory for Socialism beyond the wildest dreams of Hitler
and
> > > Stalin, and would be won by using our own greed against us without
> firing
> > a
> > > shot. America is now, because of CARA and environmentalist extremism,
> in
> > > the greatest danger since World War 2.
> > >
> > > CARA will be slowed by Missouri's new law protecting owners of private
> > > property from rampant condemnation and forced sale to the government
of
> > > privately owned land. But the only true protection is to make sure
that
> > > CARA is voted down in the Senate during the next few weeks. Ask your
> > > Senators to VOTE 'NO' ON CARA. Ask also that CARA be voted on as
> single,
> > > stand-alone legislation, and not secretly tacked on as a Amendment or
> > Rider
> > > to an Appropriations bill or other last minute, rush-to-pass
> legislation.
> > > ----------------- end ----------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
__________________________________________________ ______________________
> > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
http://www.hotmail.com
> > >
> > >
> >
>
Attachment: vcard [not shown]
11882 From: T.J. Nosmo-King <ice626@h...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 4:22am
Subject: Re: PLEASE, WE NEED YOUR HELP
How LOW can a person get???....this person(s) needs to have a winch cable
tied to each extremity and pulled apart....slowly...hope someone has a lead
on the perps.....
__________________________________________________ ______________________
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11883 From: T.J. Nosmo-King <ice626@h...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 4:27am
Subject: Re: RE: greenies etc.
or you could go to UNSUBCRIBE at egroups.....bye
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11884 From: T.J. Nosmo-King <ice626@h...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 4:37am
Subject: Re: RE: greenies etc.
the Ostrich Off-Road Club????.....too funny :)
__________________________________________________ ______________________
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11885 From: Jason Grover <v-jgro@m...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 11:01am
Subject: RE: LU - [Fwd: Fw: SOMETHING EVERY STATE NEEDS TO DO.]
Hey hey hey hey!!! No pertinent political messages allowed here! My keep
talking about Jeeps and trails. But only open trails with no threat of being
closed. And then we can only talk about driving on them and must avoid
discussing trail maintenance. All that talk is NO FUN and must be avoided!
After all, we must be able to have all the fun we want with no
responsibility!
Jason (Before anyone blows a gasket... this was all in jest.. joke..
breath... see.. feels good doesn't it! ;)
-----Original Message-----
From: Linda Luik [mailto:linda.luik@m...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 11:06 AM
To: azvjc
Subject: [az_vjc] LU - [Fwd: Fw: SOMETHING EVERY STATE NEEDS TO DO.]
Got this from Joan Beck, Bullhead 4WDC. Interesting reading.
Linda
11886 From: Stu Olson <solson8@u...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 0:35pm
Subject: RE: RE: greenies etc. and Red Creek info
Doug,
I too received the same letter from the Cave Creek ranger office. I read it several times and I agree with what you said....it would seem that we still have the trail available for use! I agree that there was a bit of double-speak in the letter, and I hope WE got the right info out of it!
Stu
Stu Olson N7QJP
Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
http://home.off-road.com/~stu
-----Original Message-----
From: DougB [mailto:azjeep@home.com]
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 22:31
To: minihummer@worldnet.att.net; eandkm@uswest.net; Scott Kruize
Cc: az_vjc@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] RE: greenies etc. and Red Creek info
I agree Scott. If one expects to go blindly through life w/o knowing (or caring) what's going on around you, then don't complain when the trails are gone. However, since we have the most to lose by trail closures, I really appreciate knowing about issues. This provides me (and others) with the ability to participate and hopefully keep trails open. BTW, all of the forums I subscribe to have regular postings on these issues.
On a related issue, I just rec'd a letter from the Cave Creek Ranger District that appears to indicate that Red Creek trail may not be closed. It's in bureaucratize, so I'm not certain. I plan on calling this week to clarify the content of the letter. I'll advise. If this is true, I think we can clearly say that we played a roll in keeping it open, since many of us wrote letters on this issue.
Specifically, the letter indicates that grazing will be restricted/eliminated around Dutchman's Grave Spring to protect it. Nothing is mentioned about closing off the FR.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Kruize
To: minihummer@worldnet.att.net ; eandkm@uswest.net
Cc: az_vjc@egroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] RE: greenies etc.
I agree with Linda. I haven't always agreed with her, but i am seeing the light these days :) I like hearing about land use issues and politics. You can't have Jeeping without the other coming up.
Scott
LindaL <minihummer@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Life is not always easy and fun. Politics and outdoor recreation are
becoming more intimate with each other than any of us care to think or
want. There are a lot of people out there who are very serious about
keeping public access to public lands for everybody and not just the
selected few. These include not only outdoor recreationists, but
farmers, ranchers, and everyday people who believe that the government
has overstepped its boundaries by fencing off public lands. I doubt that
you'll find a 4-wheeling newsgroup that doesn't touch on politics these
days. If you do, keep it a secret.
Linda
eandkm@uswest.net wrote:
> God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When I joined
> this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun. I know these issues
> are important to our future of wheelin blah blah blah.........Way to
> much politics here, such a shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with
> this group anymore.
> Erin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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11887 From: T.J. Nosmo-King <ice626@h...>
Date: Tue Aug 22, 2000 3:52am
Subject: RE: greenies etc.
"This mentality works in the military, where a couple of goof ups end up
getting the crap beat out of them so the entire unit no longer has to suffer
for their screwups."
Stu.....there are very few witnesses on the trail.... :)
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