blooddrive
01-02-2004, 10:24 PM
11838-11862 of 96470 | Previous | Next [ First | Last ] Msg # Date | Thread
11838 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 4:20pm
Subject: Re: FW: proper connection point
Thanks for the info Stu. Looks like I'll be rewiring this weekend.
ChrisK
> From: "Stu Olson" <solson8@u...>
> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 15:36:34 -0700
> To: "az_vjc" <az_vjc@egroups.com>
> Subject: [az_vjc] FW: proper connection point
>
> This is a message thread I just concluded with Optima Battery's tech support
> representative.
>
> I know that some of you already know about this issue, but I am sure some
> don't. For those that don't, read and learn. For those that do....read and
> remember! :-)
>
> The message thread has the oldest message at the bottom, so start there and
> read up the page to stay in chronological order.
>
> Stu
>
> Stu Olson N7QJP
> Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
>
> http://www.qsl.net/n7qjp/
> http://home.off-road.com/~stu
> http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
> Developer of VKE Digital Voice Keyer
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shana Holland [mailto:sholland@o...]
> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 12:14 PM
> To: 'Stu Olson'
> Subject: RE: proper connection point
>
>
>
> Stu,
> We do need to have the information regarding not hooking up your winch to
> side terminals on our website. Our website is seriously lacking some
> detail. Hooking your starter motor to the side terminals is fine. Hooking
> anything to the side terminals is pretty much fine, except for the winch.
> Your installation plan sounds like a great idea. If you need any other
> assistance, let me know!
> Best Regards,
> Shana Holland
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stu Olson [mailto:solson8@u...]
> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 1:14 PM
> To: Shana Holland
> Subject: RE: proper connection point
>
>
> Shana,
>
> Thank you for your timely response.
>
> I assume that it is OK to hook the starter motor to the side terminals,
> since some vehicles are designed this way, correct? I can always convert
> the connectors on the end of the cables to the use the side terminals and
> put post connectors on the winch leads. Would this keep me in warrantee?
>
> One other thing....I did quite a bit of poking around the web site and did
> not find any statements about not using the side terminals for winching
> applications. I may have missed it, but I was trying to find it (prior to
> writing you for information). I think it would be a good idea if it was
> presented in the FAQ and the applications section, and perhaps the battery
> specs section. Something as serious as burning a terminal on the battery
> needs more attention. This battery is THE battery to use in off-road
> vehicles, and I'll bet many, many owners do not know about this.
>
> Thank you again.....Stu
>
>
> Stu Olson N7QJP
> Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
>
> http://www.qsl.net/n7qjp/
> http://home.off-road.com/~stu
> http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
> Developer of VKE Digital Voice Keyer
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shana Holland [mailto:sholland@o...]
> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 11:05 AM
> To: 'Stu Olson'
> Subject: RE: proper connection point
>
>
> Stu,
> Thank you for your interest in OPTIMA Batteries. The information you heard
> is correct. You don't want to hook a winch up to the side terminals because
> the high current would short out the terminals causing your battery to fail.
> If you need any other information you can contact me at the above address.
> Best Regards,
> Shana Holland
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stu Olson [mailto:solson8@u...]
> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 6:55 PM
> To: questions@o...
> Subject: proper connection point
>
>
> I purchased a Yellow Top for my Jeep a week ago. I plan on installing a
> 9000 lb. winch.
>
> Are the side terminals rated the same as the top posts for current handling
> capability? It would be easy to connect the winch to the side terminals,
> but I had once heard in a newsgroup that this would void the warrantee
> because the side mounts can not handle the high current draw of an electric
> winch. Is this correct?
>
> Thanks........Stu
>
> Stu Olson N7QJP
> Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
>
> http://www.qsl.net/n7qjp/
> http://home.off-road.com/~stu
> http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
> Developer of VKE Digital Voice Keyer
>
>
>
>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
11839 From: DougB <azjeep@h...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 5:36pm
Subject: Re: "For Sale" Postings
My personal belief is that items for sale should be Jeep or off road
related, and posted by individuals (not businesses). Of course, good deals
that are discovered at a particular shop or store would be helpful to know
about.
My 2 cents,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Jacobson" <Tjacobs@I...>
To: "Az_Vjc (E-mail)" <az_vjc@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 3:12 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] "For Sale" Postings
> What's the group consensus towards posting non-jeep items for sale on this
> list? I'm personally not completely opposed, but don't want to get
everyone
> ruffled. I've got a great car for sale that I'd like to post details on.
>
> Tom J. (Maybe should have taken the "easier to ask forgiveness than
> permission" approach...)
>
>
>
>
>
11840 From: DougB <azjeep@h...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 5:48pm
Subject: FS - Firestick 4' Antenna
For Sale - 4' Firestick CB antenna - new - never used. $15 (cost was $19 +
tax)
Doug
azjeep@h...
11841 From: William Mish <yldkat55@h...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 6:02pm
Subject: Re: XJ Cooling problems
Back flush the radiator and Engine block. Do this with the thermostat removed. If it is a stock Radiator, it is over 11 years old, probably it and the block are full of scale. Even if a radiator is 4years old, you'd be surprised how much crud you'll get out of it. I do mine once a year.
Bill Mish
Yldkat
1955 Willys CJ3B
http://drive.to/yldkat55
----- Original Message -----
From: Barbour
To: az_vjc@egroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 4:01 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] XJ Cooling problems
I have been working out a cooling problem for sometime now, but haven't had
much progress. I was hoping someone has seen this before and could give a
little assistance.
Three months ago I had a water pump go out on my Cherokee. I replaced it
with one from AutoZone. OK problem solved, right? Not really, just the
beginning.
Since I replaced the water pump I have had cooling problems at idle. Have
I
made a mistake with my waterpump choice? I have read that the cooling
system needs to be purged of air to operate correctly ( closed system '89).
I filled the system according to the Chilton's manual. I have a newer
model
radiator (thicker), new bottle, new cap, a flex-a-lite electric fan (110)
installed and a newer model electric fan (stock) installed. So, I am
confident that
the radiator is getting enough air, and that the system is sealed.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Any ideas?
Thanks
Darin 98TJ&89XJ(HOT)
11842 From: tom le <tomle_85024@y...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 6:20pm
Subject: Re: carrier
Another idea is to use a winch (if you happen to equip
one in your vehicle) to pull your diff out from its
housing. That is what I have to do on my especially
when I have only one vehicle and done it all by
myself. What a clever idea, ah!!!
Tom
'94 ZJ, 7" RE, lockers, REP8000i, 35" BFG M/T
--- Bob Nyberg <rcjd50@e...> wrote:
> I removed a Dana 30 and AMC 20 from mine and could
> not get them to move
> at first but found that if I put a pry bar at both
> top and bottom at the
> same time they slid right out.
>
> Bob
>
> Jay Eller wrote:
> >
> > Get a bigger pry bar. One about 3 feet long should
> suffice! :-)) I've heard of
> > people actually hanging the entire axle from the
> ceiling by the carrier and then
> >
> > banging the crap out of the unit. Like, two
> people (each grab a side) they lift
> >
> > it up and let the whole thing drop. BANG! Comes
> out. Those suckers are
> > usually really jamed in there. I remember I used
> a 3 foot long crow bar and
> > pushed with about everything my little 160lb body
> had and just barely got it
> > loose. Keep pushing!!!!1
> > --
> > ----------------------------
> > Jay Eller
> > President
> > Toybox Off-Road
> > http://www.toyboxoffroad.com
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
11843 From: LindaL <minihummer@w...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 6:58pm
Subject: Re: "For Sale" Postings
I personally don't care. Heck! I'll be selling my motorcycle before the end of
the year. Can't ride anymore due to tendonitis and (maybe, hopefully not) carpal
tunnel syndrome. I hope I don't get roasted too badly when I finally get around
to posting the ad!
Linda
Thomas Jacobson wrote:
> What's the group consensus towards posting non-jeep items for sale on this
> list? I'm personally not completely opposed, but don't want to get everyone
> ruffled. I've got a great car for sale that I'd like to post details on.
>
> Tom J. (Maybe should have taken the "easier to ask forgiveness than
> permission" approach...)
>
>
11844 From: Leonard K. Pennock <leonardpennock@h...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 7:15pm
Subject: Re: "For Sale" Postings
I personally think the non-jeep releated should be limited to free
stuff.
Thomas Jacobson wrote:
>
> What's the group consensus towards posting non-jeep items for sale on this
> list? I'm personally not completely opposed, but don't want to get everyone
> ruffled. I've got a great car for sale that I'd like to post details on.
>
> Tom J. (Maybe should have taken the "easier to ask forgiveness than
> permission" approach...)
>
>
--
Leonard K. Pennock
Those who walk bravely through life, unafraid of loss or failure,
find that they very rarely lose or fail.
11845 From: DougB <azjeep@h...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 8:05pm
Subject: Re: Say Hello! New Member Question?
My advise would be the same as yours. If money's a problem, get a Lockrite.
A spool on the road will be very tough on the tires, which will add up to $$
eventually - not to mention the handling issues he'd have on the road. The
nice thing about a Lockrite is that he can do it himself.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith D. Orr" <korr@z...>
To: "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club" <az_vjc@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 4:20 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Say Hello! New Member Question?
> Hey Gang,
> My son and I have a friend here in Safford that has recently joined the
> az_vjc club, and would like to ask you all a question. This is pertaining
to
> a Jeep Commando/Comanche????? , any ways, you Jeep Lifer's probably know
> what I mean. He has the 232 Inline 6 cyl., with a Dana 44 in the rear and
> Dana 30 in the front. He is not sure what he has otherwise. He has just
> purchased this vehicle not to long ago. He is a young man of 20 years, and
> is in need of some good Jeeper experience. He would like to know if it is
a
> good idea to weld the rear axles to make a spool, or is it better to put
in
> a locker. Here is his letter:
>
> I JUST CHECKED MY EMAIL TODAY AND I HAD 18 NEW MESSAGES.
> I'M SORRY THAT I DIDN'T GET A CHANCE TO COME BY ON SATURDAY TO TAKE YOU
OUT
> FOUR-WHEELING. I KNOW IT MUST BE KILLING YOU.
> I SUDDENLY GOT THE URGE TO GO WELD MY REAR END INSTEAD OF BUYING A LOCKER.
> I KNOW WE TALKED ABOUT THAT A LITTLE BIT BUT I WANTED TO GET YOUR INFO AS
> WELL AS SOME PEOPLE IN THE CLUB TO SEE WHERE THEY STAND ON THE SUBJECT.
IF
> YOU COULD WRITE THE GROUP AND HAVE THEM GET BACK WITH ME OR YOU CAN WRITE
ME
> BACK THAN I'D APPRECIATE IT. IF THEY ADVISE AGAINST IT THEN FIND OUT WHAT
> WOULD BE THE BEST LOCKER FOR IT AS FAR AS QUALITY AND PRICE. JUST A
> REMINDER THAT I HAVE A DANA 44 WITH 30 X 11.5 ON IT AND MY ENGINE IS THE
> 232. IF YOU COULD GET BACK WITH ME THAT WOULD BE COOL.
>
> And here is his e-mail address: jones_chad_13@h...
>
> I would suggest that he uses a lock-rite or some other less expensive
locker
> for right now, if it is due to a money situation, but I am an XJ'er and
> before that Chevy 4x4. If you get the chance say hello to Chad at the
above
> address, or if possible, give him some advice on the Dana 44. You will get
> the chance to meet Chad at the Sept. run to be held in Safford that is in
> the planning right now. Thanks to all for your help in advance.........
>
> Casper
>
>
>
>
>
>
11846 From: Jchio - Alloffroad.com <jchio@a...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 8:25pm
Subject: PLEASE, WE NEED YOUR HELP
As you may know, a Jeep guy had an accident in Colorado, near Gibson Lake
(8/12/00) loosing his life while rolling his Jeep down on a hill.
Several friends of Mike Lane (who may rest in peace) including Chris
Lippolis, a friend of mine went the last Saturday to recover his Jeep and
clean the area, and found that someone stole the Atlas transfer case. This
is something that should not happen, if its not fair to steal, its not even
considerably to steal or take advantage of this kind of situations.
Due this event, I am asking for your help to find who did this and get him
where he belongs.
If you have any information about this, please email either me Jesus Chio
(jchio@a...) or Chris Lippolis (Rockcrawler@a...) we will keep
anything you tell us confidential,
Thank you so much for your help, feel free to forward this email or this
information to anyone who you consider could help.
Jesus Chio
www.alloffroad.com
11847 From: <deslug@u...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 8:16pm
Subject: Re: PLEASE, WE NEED YOUR HELP
My AA Tcase is numbered. What number TCASE did he have?
MIKE #126
"Jchio - Alloffroad.com" wrote:
>
> As you may know, a Jeep guy had an accident in Colorado, near Gibson Lake
> (8/12/00) loosing his life while rolling his Jeep down on a hill.
>
> Several friends of Mike Lane (who may rest in peace) including Chris
> Lippolis, a friend of mine went the last Saturday to recover his Jeep and
> clean the area, and found that someone stole the Atlas transfer case. This
> is something that should not happen, if its not fair to steal, its not even
> considerably to steal or take advantage of this kind of situations.
>
> Due this event, I am asking for your help to find who did this and get him
> where he belongs.
>
> If you have any information about this, please email either me Jesus Chio
> (jchio@a...) or Chris Lippolis (Rockcrawler@a...) we will keep
> anything you tell us confidential,
>
> Thank you so much for your help, feel free to forward this email or this
> information to anyone who you consider could help.
>
> Jesus Chio
> www.alloffroad.com
>
>
11848 From: Jchio - Alloffroad.com <jchio@a...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 8:35pm
Subject: Re: PLEASE, WE NEED YOUR HELP
AA is tracking the number, as soon as we have it we will forward it, thanks and keep your eyes open,
thanks
From: deslug@uswest.net
To: Jchio - Alloffroad.com
Cc: az_vjc@egroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] PLEASE, WE NEED YOUR HELP
My AA Tcase is numbered. What number TCASE did he have?
MIKE #126
"Jchio - Alloffroad.com" wrote:
>
> As you may know, a Jeep guy had an accident in Colorado, near Gibson Lake
> (8/12/00) loosing his life while rolling his Jeep down on a hill.
>
> Several friends of Mike Lane (who may rest in peace) including Chris
> Lippolis, a friend of mine went the last Saturday to recover his Jeep and
> clean the area, and found that someone stole the Atlas transfer case. This
> is something that should not happen, if its not fair to steal, its not even
> considerably to steal or take advantage of this kind of situations.
>
> Due this event, I am asking for your help to find who did this and get him
> where he belongs.
>
> If you have any information about this, please email either me Jesus Chio
> (jchio@alloffroad.com) or Chris Lippolis (Rockcrawler@aol.com) we will keep
> anything you tell us confidential,
>
> Thank you so much for your help, feel free to forward this email or this
> information to anyone who you consider could help.
>
> Jesus Chio
> www.alloffroad.com
>
>
11849 From: keith - alloffroad.com <crusari@p...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 1:24pm
Subject: off topic postings
I have no complaints I like to see that stuff. sometimes it is something
I need sometimes it not doesn;t this bring us back to the one key debate
"DELETE"
www.alloffroad.com
www.primenet.com/~crusari
www.abusivemotorsports.com
11850 From: chiena <chiena@e...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 8:26pm
Subject: Re: XJ Cooling problems
I have an autozone water pump and it been working fine. But I hear there are
two different pumps for the jeeps, one turns clockwise to work the other
counter clockwise. Maybe they gave you the wrong one. Anyone else hear or
know about this pump rotation.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barbour" <barbour9@h...>
To: <az_vjc@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 4:01 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] XJ Cooling problems
>
> I have been working out a cooling problem for sometime now, but haven't
had
> much progress. I was hoping someone has seen this before and could give
a
> little assistance.
>
> Three months ago I had a water pump go out on my Cherokee. I replaced it
> with one from AutoZone. OK problem solved, right? Not really, just the
> beginning.
>
> Since I replaced the water pump I have had cooling problems at idle.
Have
> I
> made a mistake with my waterpump choice? I have read that the cooling
> system needs to be purged of air to operate correctly ( closed system
'89).
> I filled the system according to the Chilton's manual. I have a newer
> model
> radiator (thicker), new bottle, new cap, a flex-a-lite electric fan (110)
> installed and a newer model electric fan (stock) installed. So, I am
> confident that
> the radiator is getting enough air, and that the system is sealed.
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks
> Darin 98TJ&89XJ(HOT)
>
>
>
>
>
>
11851 From: DougB <azjeep@h...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 9:06pm
Subject: Re: PLEASE, WE NEED YOUR HELP
Once you have the info, please post it. I'll forward it to as many lists as possible. It might make it to e-bay too I suppose. What a low life. Hope it gets recovered.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: Jchio - Alloffroad.com
To: deslug@uswest.net
Cc: az_vjc@egroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 8:35 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] PLEASE, WE NEED YOUR HELP
AA is tracking the number, as soon as we have it we will forward it, thanks and keep your eyes open,
thanks
From: deslug@uswest.net
To: Jchio - Alloffroad.com
Cc: az_vjc@egroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] PLEASE, WE NEED YOUR HELP
My AA Tcase is numbered. What number TCASE did he have?
MIKE #126
"Jchio - Alloffroad.com" wrote:
>
> As you may know, a Jeep guy had an accident in Colorado, near Gibson Lake
> (8/12/00) loosing his life while rolling his Jeep down on a hill.
>
> Several friends of Mike Lane (who may rest in peace) including Chris
> Lippolis, a friend of mine went the last Saturday to recover his Jeep and
> clean the area, and found that someone stole the Atlas transfer case. This
> is something that should not happen, if its not fair to steal, its not even
> considerably to steal or take advantage of this kind of situations.
>
> Due this event, I am asking for your help to find who did this and get him
> where he belongs.
>
> If you have any information about this, please email either me Jesus Chio
> (jchio@alloffroad.com) or Chris Lippolis (Rockcrawler@aol.com) we will keep
> anything you tell us confidential,
>
> Thank you so much for your help, feel free to forward this email or this
> information to anyone who you consider could help.
>
> Jesus Chio
> www.alloffroad.com
>
>
11852 From: Jchio - Alloffroad.com <jchio@a...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 9:22pm
Subject: Re: PLEASE, WE NEED YOUR HELP
Its an atlas transfer case, matted to a np435 with a 27 spline output shaft and a 504 number on it, hope it helps, thanks for all the efforts.
Jesus Chio
www.alloffroad.com
Free webpages
http://signup.alloffroad.com
My Eb project
www.alloffroad.com/chio
----- Original Message -----
From: DougB
To: deslug@uswest.net ; Jchio - Alloffroad.com
Cc: az_vjc@egroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] PLEASE, WE NEED YOUR HELP
Once you have the info, please post it. I'll forward it to as many lists as possible. It might make it to e-bay too I suppose. What a low life. Hope it gets recovered.
Doug
11853 From: Tim Naylor <tim.naylor@w...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 9:15pm
Subject: RE: Charouleau Gap Trail Report
There is a club night run to the GAP next Saturday the 26th. We will be
running from Oracle to Catalina. We will want to check out the unfortunate
Charokee. Are you planning to do this run? Probably not if you ran it last
week. Could you give me a little more detailed discription of it's location?
It will be dark before we get to the spot, so any more detail would help.
-----Original Message-----
From: grafik_lar@y... [mailto:grafik_lar@y...]
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 9:18 AM
To: az_vjc@egroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Charouleau Gap Trail Report
Well The run to the Gap went well this weekend, only four people
including myself were able to make it. The run started at 8:15 and we
had some very interesting events during the run. There was a newbie
to the world of Four Wheeling, My brother in Law, He just bought his
Ford Truck a Little while ago and We found The the U-Joints were the
wrong size in his front Driveshaft, as a result we found that U-
joints from an 87 wrangler are the same size, and He used the Two
spares that I carry with me, we were at the First wash when they
broke. Then he found out that his truck really eats Gas when out four
wheelin, Thanks to a Late 70's Chevy Luv with an Electric Fuel pump
we got a couple of Gallons of extra Fuel in the Tank which got it out.
He was very funny in his response to the " Is that where we gotta go"
his answer was always" I'm not going up that ******* hill", or I'm
Not going to go down that Damn thing" very funny. But he was a good
sport.
About a Mile from the wash when you start the Decent from the Gap we
found an late 80's early 90's four door Cheroke off the road in a
really flat spot with no way to get it back on the road without a
wrecker. We went to inspect the jeep to see if anybody was hurt or
anybody had fallen down the ledge, when I went to the Jeep the Column
was Busted apart the Key switch was ripped apart and the Stereo was
missing, Figured It was stollen so we stayed away and took the Plate
number down. Other than that the Slide just passed the Cabin is
really washed out and was wet so it made for a fun Decent nothing you
could do could keep you from sliding so it was really a matter of
picking the right line and slippin down. We got to Oracle at about
5:30 so we really didn't do so bad as far as time goes, considering
we had a couple of hold ups.
When we got home we called the Jeep in to the Police Non-emergency,
It was not reported stolen, then we were told to call the Sheriff's
office and they were going to go out today check up on the vehicle.
By the way (this is funny), When I was on the phone with the Sheriffs
office , I told the Nice lady where we had spotted the Jeep, She
replied, "Hold on, I think that we were out there already yesterday,
Might be for the same vehicle.", When she came back she replied " No,
that was for a Golf Cart" So someone went Four wheelin with a golf
cart.
Pretty funny Ha!
Larry 87' Wrangler
11854 From: Scott Kruize <osmtj@y...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 9:36pm
Subject: Re: greenies etc.
Nick,
I disagree. I think the public is more aware than ever. Closing lands won't prevent criminals from dumping stolen cars on these lands, nor will it keep them from reckless shooting. Most Jeeps and other 4x4 trucks DO stay on trails. From what I've gathered it's the small OHV's (quads and snowmobiles) that cause the most off the trail damage to the environment. Unfortunately we are lumped into the same category as them by most of the extreme activists.
Scott
.
Nnote wrote:
Every time we talk about staying on the trails and publicly rip into someone for getting off the trail and tearing up the land we exhibit a bit of the greenies in all of us. The same thing goes for everytime we go on a cleanup run. Everyone knows for a fact that you can't let one apple spoil the bunch. There are some crazies and sane people in every cause. I personally feel that there needs to be some land closings. I have not been on one trail when due to the bad apple's there has been beer cans and shotgun shells everywhere. We can't prevent everyone from littering so for awhile the only solution may be to keep people off. If left to human actions this whole state would be overrun with abandoned-shotguned vehicles, beer cans and vandalized cacti. Not pretty. There would be no discipline. Even as grown up's it's obvious that some people need someone or something to control behavior. We have a ton of nice trails open and available. I think this state has room to set some land aside and preserve it. Also because we have an opposing thumb doesn't mean we have the right to squash the owl's. This land isn't ours and our Jeeps alone.
Nick
Nnote@neta.com
Nnote@juno.com
BEGIN:VCARD
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FN:Nick Notestine
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ADR;HOME;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:;;1960 West Keating #273=0D=0A=0D=0A;Mesa;Az;85202;United States
LABEL;HOME;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:1960 West Keating #273=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0AMesa, Az 85202=0D=0AUnited States
X-WAB-GENDER:2
BDAY:20000517
EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:nnote@neta.com
EMAIL;INTERNET:nnote@juno.com
REV:20000821T192429Z
END:VCARD
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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11855 From: <eandkm@u...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 9:13pm
Subject: Re: RE: greenies etc.
God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When I joined this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun. I know these issues are important to our future of wheelin blah blah blah.........Way to much politics here, such a shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with this group anymore.
Erin
"Chatfield, Mike" wrote:
Sorry this isn't meant to be a flame, but it is gonna sting a little.
"Every time we talk about staying on the trails and publicly rip into
someone for getting off the trail and tearing up the land we exhibit a bit
of the greenies in all of us."
Part of our responsibility as OHV owners and Public Land Users is to educate
those new to our sport; this may include tactfully "ripping" into someone
about proper land use. If we stand by and watch as they drive off the trail
and tear up the side of a hill they have no business climbing in the first
place, then we are just as guilty as they are. Proper education of OHV users
should be the foundation of our fight against the EcoTerrorists.
"Everyone knows for a fact that you can't let one apple spoil the bunch.
There are some crazies and sane people in every cause. I personally feel
that there needs to be some land closings. I have not been on one trail when
due to the bad apples there has been beer cans and shotgun shells
everywhere. We can't prevent everyone from littering so for awhile the only
solution may be to keep people off."
First you say that you can't let one bad apple spoil the bunch, and then you
say roads should be closed to prevent those idiots from littering up the
countryside. One thing you have to realize is just because the roads are
"closed" doesn't mean that these idiots are going to stop their behavior;
they're still going to drive out there (or somewhere) and drink their beer
and litter up the place. The only thing you've accomplished is closing the
trail to families who have a legitimate right to be there. In addition, it
is usually areas with relatively easy access that have the most trash. In
other words it's not OHV users that are doing this; it is idiots from the
city out in their mom's car, coming out to drink in the middle of nowhere so
they don't get caught because they are underage. Also closing trails will
only increase traffic on the existing trails; then the Greenies will want to
close those trails because of all the damage being done. Soon you'll ask
someone if they've 4 wheeled in Arizona and they'll say "yea, I did all 4
trails in that state."
"If left to human actions this whole state would be overrun with abandoned
shot-gunned vehicles, beer cans and vandalized cacti. Not pretty. There
would be no discipline."
If left to HUMAN actions? I'd hesitate to call the morons who leave this
kind of trash humans. If left to HUMANS, like everyone I've met from AZVJC
on the trails there would be no need for "clean-ups" because we pack out
what we pack in. We take it upon ourselves to clean up the 50+ years of
trash build up in the desert because we care enough about our land to use it
responsibly and do what we need to keep it open for our children's children.
"We have a ton of nice trails open and available. I think this state has
room to set some land aside and preserve it."
The state has set a lot of land aside; all of the land between trails is off
limits to us. Not to mention places where wilderness areas have been
declared, closing existing roads and trails. There is a lot of land out
there without a single tire track on it. There are places where humans have
not stepped foot for hundreds of years, if ever. Existing roads and trails
do not need to be closed to preserve the land.
"Also because we have an opposing thumb doesn't mean we have the right to
squash the owl's. This land isn't ours and our Jeeps alone."
No the land doesn't belong to OHV, it belongs to Ranchers, Hunters, Hikers,
Bikers, Plants, Animals, Insects, Spiders, etc... When there is a valid
endangered species that needs protection, I don't have any problem with
that. However I do have a problem with EcoTerrorists trying to invent
species. Geographical location does not make a new species (as with the
spotted pigmy owl), skin blemishes and discolored hair does not make a new
species, yet EcoTerrorists will swear up and down that these are new species
because of these differences. If this were the case, then there would be
thousands of species of "Human."
My 2.5 cents worth,
- Mike
Attachment: (image/gif) C:\windows\TEMP\nsmail0C.gif [not stored]
11856 From: <eandkm@u...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 9:14pm
Subject: Re: "For Sale" Postings
This is the "jeep" club isn't it? Or have I been in the wrong place this whole time.
Erin
Thomas Jacobson wrote:
What's the group consensus towards posting non-jeep items for sale on this
list? I'm personally not completely opposed, but don't want to get everyone
ruffled. I've got a great car for sale that I'd like to post details on.
Tom J. (Maybe should have taken the "easier to ask forgiveness than
permission" approach...)
Attachment: (image/gif) C:\windows\TEMP\nsmailEA.gif [not stored]
11857 From: Scott Kruize <osmtj@y...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 9:37pm
Subject: Re: RE: greenies etc.
I think the now famous, not quite official AZVJC response to your statement which I've heard dozens of times goes as follows.........
"If you don't like it use the DELETE key."
Scott
eandkm@uswest.net wrote:
God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When I
joined this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun. I
know these issues are important to our future of wheelin
blah blah blah.........Way to much politics here, such a
shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with this group anymore.
Erin
"Chatfield, Mike" wrote:
> Sorry this isn't meant to be a flame, but it is gonna
> sting a little.
>
> "Every time we talk about staying on the trails and
> publicly rip into
> someone for getting off the trail and tearing up the land
> we exhibit a bit
> of the greenies in all of us."
>
> Part of our responsibility as OHV owners and Public Land
> Users is to educate
> those new to our sport; this may include tactfully
> "ripping" into someone
> about proper land use. If we stand by and watch as they
> drive off the trail
> and tear up the side of a hill they have no business
> climbing in the first
> place, then we are just as guilty as they are. Proper
> education of OHV users
> should be the foundation of our fight against the
> EcoTerrorists.
>
> "Everyone knows for a fact that you can't let one apple
> spoil the bunch.
> There are some crazies and sane people in every cause. I
> personally feel
> that there needs to be some land closings. I have not been
> on one trail when
> due to the bad apples there has been beer cans and shotgun
> shells
> everywhere. We can't prevent everyone from littering so
> for awhile the only
> solution may be to keep people off."
>
> First you say that you can't let one bad apple spoil the
> bunch, and then you
> say roads should be closed to prevent those idiots from
> littering up the
> countryside. One thing you have to realize is just because
> the roads are
> "closed" doesn't mean that these idiots are going to stop
> their behavior;
> they're still going to drive out there (or somewhere) and
> drink their beer
> and litter up the place. The only thing you've
> accomplished is closing the
> trail to families who have a legitimate right to be there.
> In addition, it
> is usually areas with relatively easy access that have the
> most trash. In
> other words it's not OHV users that are doing this; it is
> idiots from the
> city out in their mom's car, coming out to drink in the
> middle of nowhere so
> they don't get caught because they are underage. Also
> closing trails will
> only increase traffic on the existing trails; then the
> Greenies will want to
> close those trails because of all the damage being done.
> Soon you'll ask
> someone if they've 4 wheeled in Arizona and they'll say
> "yea, I did all 4
> trails in that state."
>
> "If left to human actions this whole state would be
> overrun with abandoned
> shot-gunned vehicles, beer cans and vandalized cacti. Not
> pretty. There
> would be no discipline."
>
> If left to HUMAN actions? I'd hesitate to call the morons
> who leave this
> kind of trash humans. If left to HUMANS, like everyone
> I've met from AZVJC
> on the trails there would be no need for "clean-ups"
> because we pack out
> what we pack in. We take it upon ourselves to clean up the
> 50+ years of
> trash build up in the desert because we care enough about
> our land to use it
> responsibly and do what we need to keep it open for our
> children's children.
>
> "We have a ton of nice trails open and available. I think
> this state has
> room to set some land aside and preserve it."
>
> The state has set a lot of land aside; all of the land
> between trails is off
> limits to us. Not to mention places where wilderness areas
> have been
> declared, closing existing roads and trails. There is a
> lot of land out
> there without a single tire track on it. There are places
> where humans have
> not stepped foot for hundreds of years, if ever. Existing
> roads and trails
> do not need to be closed to preserve the land.
>
> "Also because we have an opposing thumb doesn't mean we
> have the right to
> squash the owl's. This land isn't ours and our Jeeps
> alone."
>
> No the land doesn't belong to OHV, it belongs to Ranchers,
> Hunters, Hikers,
> Bikers, Plants, Animals, Insects, Spiders, etc... When
> there is a valid
> endangered species that needs protection, I don't have any
> problem with
> that. However I do have a problem with EcoTerrorists
> trying to invent
> species. Geographical location does not make a new species
> (as with the
> spotted pigmy owl), skin blemishes and discolored hair
> does not make a new
> species, yet EcoTerrorists will swear up and down that
> these are new species
> because of these differences. If this were the case, then
> there would be
> thousands of species of "Human."
>
> My 2.5 cents worth,
>
> - Mike
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
11858 From: az cattledogg <twistedxj@h...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 2:37pm
Subject: Re: RE: greenies etc.
You aint the only one Erin.It is getting out of conrol around hear,I think I
may just stay with the XJ list for awhile.
>From: <eandkm@u...>
>Reply-To: eandkm@u...
>To: "Chatfield, Mike" <mchat@h...>
>CC: "'az_vjc@egroups.com'" <az_vjc@egroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [az_vjc] RE: greenies etc.
>Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:13:00 -0700
>
>God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When I
>joined this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun. I
>know these issues are important to our future of wheelin
>blah blah blah.........Way to much politics here, such a
>shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with this group anymore.
>Erin
>
>"Chatfield, Mike" wrote:
>
> > Sorry this isn't meant to be a flame, but it is gonna
> > sting a little.
> >
> > "Every time we talk about staying on the trails and
> > publicly rip into
> > someone for getting off the trail and tearing up the land
> > we exhibit a bit
> > of the greenies in all of us."
> >
> > Part of our responsibility as OHV owners and Public Land
> > Users is to educate
> > those new to our sport; this may include tactfully
> > "ripping" into someone
> > about proper land use. If we stand by and watch as they
> > drive off the trail
> > and tear up the side of a hill they have no business
> > climbing in the first
> > place, then we are just as guilty as they are. Proper
> > education of OHV users
> > should be the foundation of our fight against the
> > EcoTerrorists.
> >
> > "Everyone knows for a fact that you can't let one apple
> > spoil the bunch.
> > There are some crazies and sane people in every cause. I
> > personally feel
> > that there needs to be some land closings. I have not been
> > on one trail when
> > due to the bad apples there has been beer cans and shotgun
> > shells
> > everywhere. We can't prevent everyone from littering so
> > for awhile the only
> > solution may be to keep people off."
> >
> > First you say that you can't let one bad apple spoil the
> > bunch, and then you
> > say roads should be closed to prevent those idiots from
> > littering up the
> > countryside. One thing you have to realize is just because
> > the roads are
> > "closed" doesn't mean that these idiots are going to stop
> > their behavior;
> > they're still going to drive out there (or somewhere) and
> > drink their beer
> > and litter up the place. The only thing you've
> > accomplished is closing the
> > trail to families who have a legitimate right to be there.
> > In addition, it
> > is usually areas with relatively easy access that have the
> > most trash. In
> > other words it's not OHV users that are doing this; it is
> > idiots from the
> > city out in their mom's car, coming out to drink in the
> > middle of nowhere so
> > they don't get caught because they are underage. Also
> > closing trails will
> > only increase traffic on the existing trails; then the
> > Greenies will want to
> > close those trails because of all the damage being done.
> > Soon you'll ask
> > someone if they've 4 wheeled in Arizona and they'll say
> > "yea, I did all 4
> > trails in that state."
> >
> > "If left to human actions this whole state would be
> > overrun with abandoned
> > shot-gunned vehicles, beer cans and vandalized cacti. Not
> > pretty. There
> > would be no discipline."
> >
> > If left to HUMAN actions? I'd hesitate to call the morons
> > who leave this
> > kind of trash humans. If left to HUMANS, like everyone
> > I've met from AZVJC
> > on the trails there would be no need for "clean-ups"
> > because we pack out
> > what we pack in. We take it upon ourselves to clean up the
> > 50+ years of
> > trash build up in the desert because we care enough about
> > our land to use it
> > responsibly and do what we need to keep it open for our
> > children's children.
> >
> > "We have a ton of nice trails open and available. I think
> > this state has
> > room to set some land aside and preserve it."
> >
> > The state has set a lot of land aside; all of the land
> > between trails is off
> > limits to us. Not to mention places where wilderness areas
> > have been
> > declared, closing existing roads and trails. There is a
> > lot of land out
> > there without a single tire track on it. There are places
> > where humans have
> > not stepped foot for hundreds of years, if ever. Existing
> > roads and trails
> > do not need to be closed to preserve the land.
> >
> > "Also because we have an opposing thumb doesn't mean we
> > have the right to
> > squash the owl's. This land isn't ours and our Jeeps
> > alone."
> >
> > No the land doesn't belong to OHV, it belongs to Ranchers,
> > Hunters, Hikers,
> > Bikers, Plants, Animals, Insects, Spiders, etc... When
> > there is a valid
> > endangered species that needs protection, I don't have any
> > problem with
> > that. However I do have a problem with EcoTerrorists
> > trying to invent
> > species. Geographical location does not make a new species
> > (as with the
> > spotted pigmy owl), skin blemishes and discolored hair
> > does not make a new
> > species, yet EcoTerrorists will swear up and down that
> > these are new species
> > because of these differences. If this were the case, then
> > there would be
> > thousands of species of "Human."
> >
> > My 2.5 cents worth,
> >
> > - Mike
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
__________________________________________________ ______________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
11859 From: keith - alloffroad.com <crusari@p...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 2:37pm
Subject: greenies
we can all ***** and moan about this till our faces turn blue but we still
aren;t doing anything I think everybody in the club knows what we are all
up against but at the same time not many ppl seem to be doing anything I
understand your all busy but why should we ***** amongst ourselves when we
could make the public more aware.
I was part of the terminator ZJ removal friday night on the way in I broke
on the first obstacle instead of stopping there I put my gear into the back
of another jeep and headed on down the trail when I got there I found Bill
Mish and bob trenton working hard to cut up the wreckage and they where the
only ones there I was in a group of 3 jeeps 4 people total a couple other
ppl showed up but all together there where not more than 8 people there
after you where all aware of it after many postings
I was very disappointed in everybody that didn;t have a valid excuse.
even after all three jeeps I was with broke on the way in we still got
there and worked on cutting up the wreckage then when we where done
proceeded to fix the jeeps and head out unfortunately it is never this easy
I ended up camping up there with 2 of the jeeps still broken while
everybody else was running for parts to get them back up and running. I
didn;t think rtwice about it cause I was HELPING my fellow jeepers and
cleaning up the trail so everybody can still see the beauty of the desert
without having to hike 300 miles to see anything other than CLOSED
signs!!!!!
Keith
Editor of www.alloffroad.com
11860 From: <eandkm@u...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 9:36pm
Subject: Re: RE: greenies etc.
Your right Travis, I'm sticking with the xj list from now on, this club has lost it's direction and humor. Good bye, fellow jeepers, yes I said "JEEP".
Oh, by the way I have a lamp for sale, is it ok to waste space on here and post it?? After all just hit "delete" if you don't like it.........................
Erin
az cattledogg wrote:
You aint the only one Erin.It is getting out of conrol around hear,I think I
may just stay with the XJ list for awhile.
>From:
>Reply-To: eandkm@uswest.net
>To: "Chatfield, Mike"
>CC: "'az_vjc@egroups.com'"
>Subject: Re: [az_vjc] RE: greenies etc.
>Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:13:00 -0700
>
>God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When I
>joined this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun. I
>know these issues are important to our future of wheelin
>blah blah blah.........Way to much politics here, such a
>shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with this group anymore.
>Erin
>
>"Chatfield, Mike" wrote:
>
> > Sorry this isn't meant to be a flame, but it is gonna
> > sting a little.
> >
> > "Every time we talk about staying on the trails and
> > publicly rip into
> > someone for getting off the trail and tearing up the land
> > we exhibit a bit
> > of the greenies in all of us."
> >
> > Part of our responsibility as OHV owners and Public Land
> > Users is to educate
> > those new to our sport; this may include tactfully
> > "ripping" into someone
> > about proper land use. If we stand by and watch as they
> > drive off the trail
> > and tear up the side of a hill they have no business
> > climbing in the first
> > place, then we are just as guilty as they are. Proper
> > education of OHV users
> > should be the foundation of our fight against the
> > EcoTerrorists.
> >
> > "Everyone knows for a fact that you can't let one apple
> > spoil the bunch.
> > There are some crazies and sane people in every cause. I
> > personally feel
> > that there needs to be some land closings. I have not been
> > on one trail when
> > due to the bad apples there has been beer cans and shotgun
> > shells
> > everywhere. We can't prevent everyone from littering so
> > for awhile the only
> > solution may be to keep people off."
> >
> > First you say that you can't let one bad apple spoil the
> > bunch, and then you
> > say roads should be closed to prevent those idiots from
> > littering up the
> > countryside. One thing you have to realize is just because
> > the roads are
> > "closed" doesn't mean that these idiots are going to stop
> > their behavior;
> > they're still going to drive out there (or somewhere) and
> > drink their beer
> > and litter up the place. The only thing you've
> > accomplished is closing the
> > trail to families who have a legitimate right to be there.
> > In addition, it
> > is usually areas with relatively easy access that have the
> > most trash. In
> > other words it's not OHV users that are doing this; it is
> > idiots from the
> > city out in their mom's car, coming out to drink in the
> > middle of nowhere so
> > they don't get caught because they are underage. Also
> > closing trails will
> > only increase traffic on the existing trails; then the
> > Greenies will want to
> > close those trails because of all the damage being done.
> > Soon you'll ask
> > someone if they've 4 wheeled in Arizona and they'll say
> > "yea, I did all 4
> > trails in that state."
> >
> > "If left to human actions this whole state would be
> > overrun with abandoned
> > shot-gunned vehicles, beer cans and vandalized cacti. Not
> > pretty. There
> > would be no discipline."
> >
> > If left to HUMAN actions? I'd hesitate to call the morons
> > who leave this
> > kind of trash humans. If left to HUMANS, like everyone
> > I've met from AZVJC
> > on the trails there would be no need for "clean-ups"
> > because we pack out
> > what we pack in. We take it upon ourselves to clean up the
> > 50+ years of
> > trash build up in the desert because we care enough about
> > our land to use it
> > responsibly and do what we need to keep it open for our
> > children's children.
> >
> > "We have a ton of nice trails open and available. I think
> > this state has
> > room to set some land aside and preserve it."
> >
> > The state has set a lot of land aside; all of the land
> > between trails is off
> > limits to us. Not to mention places where wilderness areas
> > have been
> > declared, closing existing roads and trails. There is a
> > lot of land out
> > there without a single tire track on it. There are places
> > where humans have
> > not stepped foot for hundreds of years, if ever. Existing
> > roads and trails
> > do not need to be closed to preserve the land.
> >
> > "Also because we have an opposing thumb doesn't mean we
> > have the right to
> > squash the owl's. This land isn't ours and our Jeeps
> > alone."
> >
> > No the land doesn't belong to OHV, it belongs to Ranchers,
> > Hunters, Hikers,
> > Bikers, Plants, Animals, Insects, Spiders, etc... When
> > there is a valid
> > endangered species that needs protection, I don't have any
> > problem with
> > that. However I do have a problem with EcoTerrorists
> > trying to invent
> > species. Geographical location does not make a new species
> > (as with the
> > spotted pigmy owl), skin blemishes and discolored hair
> > does not make a new
> > species, yet EcoTerrorists will swear up and down that
> > these are new species
> > because of these differences. If this were the case, then
> > there would be
> > thousands of species of "Human."
> >
> > My 2.5 cents worth,
> >
> > - Mike
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
__________________________________________________ ______________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Attachment: (image/gif) C:\windows\TEMP\nsmailM5.gif [not stored]
11861 From: <eandkm@u...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 9:38pm
Subject: Re: RE: greenies etc.
Thank your for those words of wisdom Scott, while you guys talk about the world, I'm gonna go put my JEEP to bed. Nighty, night.
Erin
Scott Kruize wrote:
I think the now famous, not quite official AZVJC response to your statement which I've heard dozens of times goes as follows.........
"If you don't like it use the DELETE key."
Scott
eandkm@uswest.net wrote:
God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When I
joined this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun. I
know these issues are important to our future of wheelin
blah blah blah.........Way to much politics here, such a
shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with this group anymore.
Erin
"Chatfield, Mike" wrote:
> Sorry this isn't meant to be a flame, but it is gonna
> sting a little.
>
> "Every time we talk about staying on the trails and
> publicly rip into
> someone for getting off the trail and tearing up the land
> we exhibit a bit
> of the greenies in all of us."
>
> Part of our responsibility as OHV owners and Public Land
> Users is to educate
> those new to our sport; this may include tactfully
> "ripping" into someone
> about proper land use. If we stand by and watch as they
> drive off the trail
> and tear up the side of a hill they have no business
> climbing in the first
> place, then we are just as guilty as they are. Proper
> education of OHV users
> should be the foundation of our fight against the
> EcoTerrorists.
>
> "Everyone knows for a fact that you can't let one apple
> spoil the bunch.
> There are some crazies and sane people in every cause. I
> personally feel
> that there needs to be some land closings. I have not been
> on one trail when
> due to the bad apples there has been beer cans and shotgun
> shells
> everywhere. We can't prevent everyone from littering so
> for awhile the only
> solution may be to keep people off."
>
> First you say that you can't let one bad apple spoil the
> bunch, and then you
> say roads should be closed to prevent those idiots from
> littering up the
> countryside. One thing you have to realize is just because
> the roads are
> "closed" doesn't mean that these idiots are going to stop
> their behavior;
> they're still going to drive out there (or somewhere) and
> drink their beer
> and litter up the place. The only thing you've
> accomplished is closing the
> trail to families who have a legitimate right to be there.
> In addition, it
> is usually areas with relatively easy access that have the
> most trash. In
> other words it's not OHV users that are doing this; it is
> idiots from the
> city out in their mom's car, coming out to drink in the
> middle of nowhere so
> they don't get caught because they are underage. Also
> closing trails will
> only increase traffic on the existing trails; then the
> Greenies will want to
> close those trails because of all the damage being done.
> Soon you'll ask
> someone if they've 4 wheeled in Arizona and they'll say
> "yea, I did all 4
> trails in that state."
>
> "If left to human actions this whole state would be
> overrun with abandoned
> shot-gunned vehicles, beer cans and vandalized cacti. Not
> pretty. There
> would be no discipline."
>
> If left to HUMAN actions? I'd hesitate to call the morons
> who leave this
> kind of trash humans. If left to HUMANS, like everyone
> I've met from AZVJC
> on the trails there would be no need for "clean-ups"
> because we pack out
> what we pack in. We take it upon ourselves to clean up the
> 50+ years of
> trash build up in the desert because we care enough about
> our land to use it
> responsibly and do what we need to keep it open for our
> children's children.
>
> "We have a ton of nice trails open and available. I think
> this state has
> room to set some land aside and preserve it."
>
> The state has set a lot of land aside; all of the land
> between trails is off
> limits to us. Not to mention places where wilderness areas
> have been
> declared, closing existing roads and trails. There is a
> lot of land out
> there without a single tire track on it. There are places
> where humans have
> not stepped foot for hundreds of years, if ever. Existing
> roads and trails
> do not need to be closed to preserve the land.
>
> "Also because we have an opposing thumb doesn't mean we
> have the right to
> squash the owl's. This land isn't ours and our Jeeps
> alone."
>
> No the land doesn't belong to OHV, it belongs to Ranchers,
> Hunters, Hikers,
> Bikers, Plants, Animals, Insects, Spiders, etc... When
> there is a valid
> endangered species that needs protection, I don't have any
> problem with
> that. However I do have a problem with EcoTerrorists
> trying to invent
> species. Geographical location does not make a new species
> (as with the
> spotted pigmy owl), skin blemishes and discolored hair
> does not make a new
> species, yet EcoTerrorists will swear up and down that
> these are new species
> because of these differences. If this were the case, then
> there would be
> thousands of species of "Human."
>
> My 2.5 cents worth,
>
> - Mike
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
11862 From: Stu Olson <solson8@u...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 10:04pm
Subject: RE: greenies
Keith,
Nice comments....and thank you for taking your Jeep in to help get the XJ
out.
You said "even after all three jeeps I was with broke on the way in....",
well you now know why I was not there. I have no desire to run the
Terminator.
On the flip side, I will be out this coming Saturday for the White Tanks
clean up. I can negotiate that area and I'll drive my vehicle home when I
am done for the day.
I am sorry that I don't meet your expectations for a Jeeper that doesn't
mind breaking his vehicle. We all help in ways that we can. Don't worry
about Saturday, you have certainly done your share for this month.
Stu
Stu Olson N7QJP
Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
http://www.qsl.net/n7qjp/
http://home.off-road.com/~stu
http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
Developer of VKE Digital Voice Keyer
-----Original Message-----
From: keith - alloffroad.com [mailto:crusari@p...]
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 2:37 PM
To: 'az_vjc@egroups.com'
Subject: [az_vjc] greenies
we can all ***** and moan about this till our faces turn blue but we still
aren;t doing anything I think everybody in the club knows what we are all
up against but at the same time not many ppl seem to be doing anything I
understand your all busy but why should we ***** amongst ourselves when we
could make the public more aware.
I was part of the terminator ZJ removal friday night on the way in I broke
on the first obstacle instead of stopping there I put my gear into the back
of another jeep and headed on down the trail when I got there I found Bill
Mish and bob trenton working hard to cut up the wreckage and they where the
only ones there I was in a group of 3 jeeps 4 people total a couple other
ppl showed up but all together there where not more than 8 people there
after you where all aware of it after many postings
I was very disappointed in everybody that didn;t have a valid excuse.
even after all three jeeps I was with broke on the way in we still got
there and worked on cutting up the wreckage then when we where done
proceeded to fix the jeeps and head out unfortunately it is never this easy
I ended up camping up there with 2 of the jeeps still broken while
everybody else was running for parts to get them back up and running. I
didn;t think rtwice about it cause I was HELPING my fellow jeepers and
cleaning up the trail so everybody can still see the beauty of the desert
without having to hike 300 miles to see anything other than CLOSED
signs!!!!!
Keith
Editor of www.alloffroad.com
11838 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 4:20pm
Subject: Re: FW: proper connection point
Thanks for the info Stu. Looks like I'll be rewiring this weekend.
ChrisK
> From: "Stu Olson" <solson8@u...>
> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 15:36:34 -0700
> To: "az_vjc" <az_vjc@egroups.com>
> Subject: [az_vjc] FW: proper connection point
>
> This is a message thread I just concluded with Optima Battery's tech support
> representative.
>
> I know that some of you already know about this issue, but I am sure some
> don't. For those that don't, read and learn. For those that do....read and
> remember! :-)
>
> The message thread has the oldest message at the bottom, so start there and
> read up the page to stay in chronological order.
>
> Stu
>
> Stu Olson N7QJP
> Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
>
> http://www.qsl.net/n7qjp/
> http://home.off-road.com/~stu
> http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
> Developer of VKE Digital Voice Keyer
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shana Holland [mailto:sholland@o...]
> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 12:14 PM
> To: 'Stu Olson'
> Subject: RE: proper connection point
>
>
>
> Stu,
> We do need to have the information regarding not hooking up your winch to
> side terminals on our website. Our website is seriously lacking some
> detail. Hooking your starter motor to the side terminals is fine. Hooking
> anything to the side terminals is pretty much fine, except for the winch.
> Your installation plan sounds like a great idea. If you need any other
> assistance, let me know!
> Best Regards,
> Shana Holland
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stu Olson [mailto:solson8@u...]
> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 1:14 PM
> To: Shana Holland
> Subject: RE: proper connection point
>
>
> Shana,
>
> Thank you for your timely response.
>
> I assume that it is OK to hook the starter motor to the side terminals,
> since some vehicles are designed this way, correct? I can always convert
> the connectors on the end of the cables to the use the side terminals and
> put post connectors on the winch leads. Would this keep me in warrantee?
>
> One other thing....I did quite a bit of poking around the web site and did
> not find any statements about not using the side terminals for winching
> applications. I may have missed it, but I was trying to find it (prior to
> writing you for information). I think it would be a good idea if it was
> presented in the FAQ and the applications section, and perhaps the battery
> specs section. Something as serious as burning a terminal on the battery
> needs more attention. This battery is THE battery to use in off-road
> vehicles, and I'll bet many, many owners do not know about this.
>
> Thank you again.....Stu
>
>
> Stu Olson N7QJP
> Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
>
> http://www.qsl.net/n7qjp/
> http://home.off-road.com/~stu
> http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
> Developer of VKE Digital Voice Keyer
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shana Holland [mailto:sholland@o...]
> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 11:05 AM
> To: 'Stu Olson'
> Subject: RE: proper connection point
>
>
> Stu,
> Thank you for your interest in OPTIMA Batteries. The information you heard
> is correct. You don't want to hook a winch up to the side terminals because
> the high current would short out the terminals causing your battery to fail.
> If you need any other information you can contact me at the above address.
> Best Regards,
> Shana Holland
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stu Olson [mailto:solson8@u...]
> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 6:55 PM
> To: questions@o...
> Subject: proper connection point
>
>
> I purchased a Yellow Top for my Jeep a week ago. I plan on installing a
> 9000 lb. winch.
>
> Are the side terminals rated the same as the top posts for current handling
> capability? It would be easy to connect the winch to the side terminals,
> but I had once heard in a newsgroup that this would void the warrantee
> because the side mounts can not handle the high current draw of an electric
> winch. Is this correct?
>
> Thanks........Stu
>
> Stu Olson N7QJP
> Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
>
> http://www.qsl.net/n7qjp/
> http://home.off-road.com/~stu
> http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
> Developer of VKE Digital Voice Keyer
>
>
>
>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
11839 From: DougB <azjeep@h...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 5:36pm
Subject: Re: "For Sale" Postings
My personal belief is that items for sale should be Jeep or off road
related, and posted by individuals (not businesses). Of course, good deals
that are discovered at a particular shop or store would be helpful to know
about.
My 2 cents,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Jacobson" <Tjacobs@I...>
To: "Az_Vjc (E-mail)" <az_vjc@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 3:12 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] "For Sale" Postings
> What's the group consensus towards posting non-jeep items for sale on this
> list? I'm personally not completely opposed, but don't want to get
everyone
> ruffled. I've got a great car for sale that I'd like to post details on.
>
> Tom J. (Maybe should have taken the "easier to ask forgiveness than
> permission" approach...)
>
>
>
>
>
11840 From: DougB <azjeep@h...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 5:48pm
Subject: FS - Firestick 4' Antenna
For Sale - 4' Firestick CB antenna - new - never used. $15 (cost was $19 +
tax)
Doug
azjeep@h...
11841 From: William Mish <yldkat55@h...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 6:02pm
Subject: Re: XJ Cooling problems
Back flush the radiator and Engine block. Do this with the thermostat removed. If it is a stock Radiator, it is over 11 years old, probably it and the block are full of scale. Even if a radiator is 4years old, you'd be surprised how much crud you'll get out of it. I do mine once a year.
Bill Mish
Yldkat
1955 Willys CJ3B
http://drive.to/yldkat55
----- Original Message -----
From: Barbour
To: az_vjc@egroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 4:01 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] XJ Cooling problems
I have been working out a cooling problem for sometime now, but haven't had
much progress. I was hoping someone has seen this before and could give a
little assistance.
Three months ago I had a water pump go out on my Cherokee. I replaced it
with one from AutoZone. OK problem solved, right? Not really, just the
beginning.
Since I replaced the water pump I have had cooling problems at idle. Have
I
made a mistake with my waterpump choice? I have read that the cooling
system needs to be purged of air to operate correctly ( closed system '89).
I filled the system according to the Chilton's manual. I have a newer
model
radiator (thicker), new bottle, new cap, a flex-a-lite electric fan (110)
installed and a newer model electric fan (stock) installed. So, I am
confident that
the radiator is getting enough air, and that the system is sealed.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Any ideas?
Thanks
Darin 98TJ&89XJ(HOT)
11842 From: tom le <tomle_85024@y...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 6:20pm
Subject: Re: carrier
Another idea is to use a winch (if you happen to equip
one in your vehicle) to pull your diff out from its
housing. That is what I have to do on my especially
when I have only one vehicle and done it all by
myself. What a clever idea, ah!!!
Tom
'94 ZJ, 7" RE, lockers, REP8000i, 35" BFG M/T
--- Bob Nyberg <rcjd50@e...> wrote:
> I removed a Dana 30 and AMC 20 from mine and could
> not get them to move
> at first but found that if I put a pry bar at both
> top and bottom at the
> same time they slid right out.
>
> Bob
>
> Jay Eller wrote:
> >
> > Get a bigger pry bar. One about 3 feet long should
> suffice! :-)) I've heard of
> > people actually hanging the entire axle from the
> ceiling by the carrier and then
> >
> > banging the crap out of the unit. Like, two
> people (each grab a side) they lift
> >
> > it up and let the whole thing drop. BANG! Comes
> out. Those suckers are
> > usually really jamed in there. I remember I used
> a 3 foot long crow bar and
> > pushed with about everything my little 160lb body
> had and just barely got it
> > loose. Keep pushing!!!!1
> > --
> > ----------------------------
> > Jay Eller
> > President
> > Toybox Off-Road
> > http://www.toyboxoffroad.com
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
11843 From: LindaL <minihummer@w...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 6:58pm
Subject: Re: "For Sale" Postings
I personally don't care. Heck! I'll be selling my motorcycle before the end of
the year. Can't ride anymore due to tendonitis and (maybe, hopefully not) carpal
tunnel syndrome. I hope I don't get roasted too badly when I finally get around
to posting the ad!
Linda
Thomas Jacobson wrote:
> What's the group consensus towards posting non-jeep items for sale on this
> list? I'm personally not completely opposed, but don't want to get everyone
> ruffled. I've got a great car for sale that I'd like to post details on.
>
> Tom J. (Maybe should have taken the "easier to ask forgiveness than
> permission" approach...)
>
>
11844 From: Leonard K. Pennock <leonardpennock@h...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 7:15pm
Subject: Re: "For Sale" Postings
I personally think the non-jeep releated should be limited to free
stuff.
Thomas Jacobson wrote:
>
> What's the group consensus towards posting non-jeep items for sale on this
> list? I'm personally not completely opposed, but don't want to get everyone
> ruffled. I've got a great car for sale that I'd like to post details on.
>
> Tom J. (Maybe should have taken the "easier to ask forgiveness than
> permission" approach...)
>
>
--
Leonard K. Pennock
Those who walk bravely through life, unafraid of loss or failure,
find that they very rarely lose or fail.
11845 From: DougB <azjeep@h...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 8:05pm
Subject: Re: Say Hello! New Member Question?
My advise would be the same as yours. If money's a problem, get a Lockrite.
A spool on the road will be very tough on the tires, which will add up to $$
eventually - not to mention the handling issues he'd have on the road. The
nice thing about a Lockrite is that he can do it himself.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith D. Orr" <korr@z...>
To: "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club" <az_vjc@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 4:20 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Say Hello! New Member Question?
> Hey Gang,
> My son and I have a friend here in Safford that has recently joined the
> az_vjc club, and would like to ask you all a question. This is pertaining
to
> a Jeep Commando/Comanche????? , any ways, you Jeep Lifer's probably know
> what I mean. He has the 232 Inline 6 cyl., with a Dana 44 in the rear and
> Dana 30 in the front. He is not sure what he has otherwise. He has just
> purchased this vehicle not to long ago. He is a young man of 20 years, and
> is in need of some good Jeeper experience. He would like to know if it is
a
> good idea to weld the rear axles to make a spool, or is it better to put
in
> a locker. Here is his letter:
>
> I JUST CHECKED MY EMAIL TODAY AND I HAD 18 NEW MESSAGES.
> I'M SORRY THAT I DIDN'T GET A CHANCE TO COME BY ON SATURDAY TO TAKE YOU
OUT
> FOUR-WHEELING. I KNOW IT MUST BE KILLING YOU.
> I SUDDENLY GOT THE URGE TO GO WELD MY REAR END INSTEAD OF BUYING A LOCKER.
> I KNOW WE TALKED ABOUT THAT A LITTLE BIT BUT I WANTED TO GET YOUR INFO AS
> WELL AS SOME PEOPLE IN THE CLUB TO SEE WHERE THEY STAND ON THE SUBJECT.
IF
> YOU COULD WRITE THE GROUP AND HAVE THEM GET BACK WITH ME OR YOU CAN WRITE
ME
> BACK THAN I'D APPRECIATE IT. IF THEY ADVISE AGAINST IT THEN FIND OUT WHAT
> WOULD BE THE BEST LOCKER FOR IT AS FAR AS QUALITY AND PRICE. JUST A
> REMINDER THAT I HAVE A DANA 44 WITH 30 X 11.5 ON IT AND MY ENGINE IS THE
> 232. IF YOU COULD GET BACK WITH ME THAT WOULD BE COOL.
>
> And here is his e-mail address: jones_chad_13@h...
>
> I would suggest that he uses a lock-rite or some other less expensive
locker
> for right now, if it is due to a money situation, but I am an XJ'er and
> before that Chevy 4x4. If you get the chance say hello to Chad at the
above
> address, or if possible, give him some advice on the Dana 44. You will get
> the chance to meet Chad at the Sept. run to be held in Safford that is in
> the planning right now. Thanks to all for your help in advance.........
>
> Casper
>
>
>
>
>
>
11846 From: Jchio - Alloffroad.com <jchio@a...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 8:25pm
Subject: PLEASE, WE NEED YOUR HELP
As you may know, a Jeep guy had an accident in Colorado, near Gibson Lake
(8/12/00) loosing his life while rolling his Jeep down on a hill.
Several friends of Mike Lane (who may rest in peace) including Chris
Lippolis, a friend of mine went the last Saturday to recover his Jeep and
clean the area, and found that someone stole the Atlas transfer case. This
is something that should not happen, if its not fair to steal, its not even
considerably to steal or take advantage of this kind of situations.
Due this event, I am asking for your help to find who did this and get him
where he belongs.
If you have any information about this, please email either me Jesus Chio
(jchio@a...) or Chris Lippolis (Rockcrawler@a...) we will keep
anything you tell us confidential,
Thank you so much for your help, feel free to forward this email or this
information to anyone who you consider could help.
Jesus Chio
www.alloffroad.com
11847 From: <deslug@u...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 8:16pm
Subject: Re: PLEASE, WE NEED YOUR HELP
My AA Tcase is numbered. What number TCASE did he have?
MIKE #126
"Jchio - Alloffroad.com" wrote:
>
> As you may know, a Jeep guy had an accident in Colorado, near Gibson Lake
> (8/12/00) loosing his life while rolling his Jeep down on a hill.
>
> Several friends of Mike Lane (who may rest in peace) including Chris
> Lippolis, a friend of mine went the last Saturday to recover his Jeep and
> clean the area, and found that someone stole the Atlas transfer case. This
> is something that should not happen, if its not fair to steal, its not even
> considerably to steal or take advantage of this kind of situations.
>
> Due this event, I am asking for your help to find who did this and get him
> where he belongs.
>
> If you have any information about this, please email either me Jesus Chio
> (jchio@a...) or Chris Lippolis (Rockcrawler@a...) we will keep
> anything you tell us confidential,
>
> Thank you so much for your help, feel free to forward this email or this
> information to anyone who you consider could help.
>
> Jesus Chio
> www.alloffroad.com
>
>
11848 From: Jchio - Alloffroad.com <jchio@a...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 8:35pm
Subject: Re: PLEASE, WE NEED YOUR HELP
AA is tracking the number, as soon as we have it we will forward it, thanks and keep your eyes open,
thanks
From: deslug@uswest.net
To: Jchio - Alloffroad.com
Cc: az_vjc@egroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] PLEASE, WE NEED YOUR HELP
My AA Tcase is numbered. What number TCASE did he have?
MIKE #126
"Jchio - Alloffroad.com" wrote:
>
> As you may know, a Jeep guy had an accident in Colorado, near Gibson Lake
> (8/12/00) loosing his life while rolling his Jeep down on a hill.
>
> Several friends of Mike Lane (who may rest in peace) including Chris
> Lippolis, a friend of mine went the last Saturday to recover his Jeep and
> clean the area, and found that someone stole the Atlas transfer case. This
> is something that should not happen, if its not fair to steal, its not even
> considerably to steal or take advantage of this kind of situations.
>
> Due this event, I am asking for your help to find who did this and get him
> where he belongs.
>
> If you have any information about this, please email either me Jesus Chio
> (jchio@alloffroad.com) or Chris Lippolis (Rockcrawler@aol.com) we will keep
> anything you tell us confidential,
>
> Thank you so much for your help, feel free to forward this email or this
> information to anyone who you consider could help.
>
> Jesus Chio
> www.alloffroad.com
>
>
11849 From: keith - alloffroad.com <crusari@p...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 1:24pm
Subject: off topic postings
I have no complaints I like to see that stuff. sometimes it is something
I need sometimes it not doesn;t this bring us back to the one key debate
"DELETE"
www.alloffroad.com
www.primenet.com/~crusari
www.abusivemotorsports.com
11850 From: chiena <chiena@e...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 8:26pm
Subject: Re: XJ Cooling problems
I have an autozone water pump and it been working fine. But I hear there are
two different pumps for the jeeps, one turns clockwise to work the other
counter clockwise. Maybe they gave you the wrong one. Anyone else hear or
know about this pump rotation.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barbour" <barbour9@h...>
To: <az_vjc@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 4:01 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] XJ Cooling problems
>
> I have been working out a cooling problem for sometime now, but haven't
had
> much progress. I was hoping someone has seen this before and could give
a
> little assistance.
>
> Three months ago I had a water pump go out on my Cherokee. I replaced it
> with one from AutoZone. OK problem solved, right? Not really, just the
> beginning.
>
> Since I replaced the water pump I have had cooling problems at idle.
Have
> I
> made a mistake with my waterpump choice? I have read that the cooling
> system needs to be purged of air to operate correctly ( closed system
'89).
> I filled the system according to the Chilton's manual. I have a newer
> model
> radiator (thicker), new bottle, new cap, a flex-a-lite electric fan (110)
> installed and a newer model electric fan (stock) installed. So, I am
> confident that
> the radiator is getting enough air, and that the system is sealed.
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks
> Darin 98TJ&89XJ(HOT)
>
>
>
>
>
>
11851 From: DougB <azjeep@h...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 9:06pm
Subject: Re: PLEASE, WE NEED YOUR HELP
Once you have the info, please post it. I'll forward it to as many lists as possible. It might make it to e-bay too I suppose. What a low life. Hope it gets recovered.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: Jchio - Alloffroad.com
To: deslug@uswest.net
Cc: az_vjc@egroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 8:35 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] PLEASE, WE NEED YOUR HELP
AA is tracking the number, as soon as we have it we will forward it, thanks and keep your eyes open,
thanks
From: deslug@uswest.net
To: Jchio - Alloffroad.com
Cc: az_vjc@egroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] PLEASE, WE NEED YOUR HELP
My AA Tcase is numbered. What number TCASE did he have?
MIKE #126
"Jchio - Alloffroad.com" wrote:
>
> As you may know, a Jeep guy had an accident in Colorado, near Gibson Lake
> (8/12/00) loosing his life while rolling his Jeep down on a hill.
>
> Several friends of Mike Lane (who may rest in peace) including Chris
> Lippolis, a friend of mine went the last Saturday to recover his Jeep and
> clean the area, and found that someone stole the Atlas transfer case. This
> is something that should not happen, if its not fair to steal, its not even
> considerably to steal or take advantage of this kind of situations.
>
> Due this event, I am asking for your help to find who did this and get him
> where he belongs.
>
> If you have any information about this, please email either me Jesus Chio
> (jchio@alloffroad.com) or Chris Lippolis (Rockcrawler@aol.com) we will keep
> anything you tell us confidential,
>
> Thank you so much for your help, feel free to forward this email or this
> information to anyone who you consider could help.
>
> Jesus Chio
> www.alloffroad.com
>
>
11852 From: Jchio - Alloffroad.com <jchio@a...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 9:22pm
Subject: Re: PLEASE, WE NEED YOUR HELP
Its an atlas transfer case, matted to a np435 with a 27 spline output shaft and a 504 number on it, hope it helps, thanks for all the efforts.
Jesus Chio
www.alloffroad.com
Free webpages
http://signup.alloffroad.com
My Eb project
www.alloffroad.com/chio
----- Original Message -----
From: DougB
To: deslug@uswest.net ; Jchio - Alloffroad.com
Cc: az_vjc@egroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] PLEASE, WE NEED YOUR HELP
Once you have the info, please post it. I'll forward it to as many lists as possible. It might make it to e-bay too I suppose. What a low life. Hope it gets recovered.
Doug
11853 From: Tim Naylor <tim.naylor@w...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 9:15pm
Subject: RE: Charouleau Gap Trail Report
There is a club night run to the GAP next Saturday the 26th. We will be
running from Oracle to Catalina. We will want to check out the unfortunate
Charokee. Are you planning to do this run? Probably not if you ran it last
week. Could you give me a little more detailed discription of it's location?
It will be dark before we get to the spot, so any more detail would help.
-----Original Message-----
From: grafik_lar@y... [mailto:grafik_lar@y...]
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 9:18 AM
To: az_vjc@egroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Charouleau Gap Trail Report
Well The run to the Gap went well this weekend, only four people
including myself were able to make it. The run started at 8:15 and we
had some very interesting events during the run. There was a newbie
to the world of Four Wheeling, My brother in Law, He just bought his
Ford Truck a Little while ago and We found The the U-Joints were the
wrong size in his front Driveshaft, as a result we found that U-
joints from an 87 wrangler are the same size, and He used the Two
spares that I carry with me, we were at the First wash when they
broke. Then he found out that his truck really eats Gas when out four
wheelin, Thanks to a Late 70's Chevy Luv with an Electric Fuel pump
we got a couple of Gallons of extra Fuel in the Tank which got it out.
He was very funny in his response to the " Is that where we gotta go"
his answer was always" I'm not going up that ******* hill", or I'm
Not going to go down that Damn thing" very funny. But he was a good
sport.
About a Mile from the wash when you start the Decent from the Gap we
found an late 80's early 90's four door Cheroke off the road in a
really flat spot with no way to get it back on the road without a
wrecker. We went to inspect the jeep to see if anybody was hurt or
anybody had fallen down the ledge, when I went to the Jeep the Column
was Busted apart the Key switch was ripped apart and the Stereo was
missing, Figured It was stollen so we stayed away and took the Plate
number down. Other than that the Slide just passed the Cabin is
really washed out and was wet so it made for a fun Decent nothing you
could do could keep you from sliding so it was really a matter of
picking the right line and slippin down. We got to Oracle at about
5:30 so we really didn't do so bad as far as time goes, considering
we had a couple of hold ups.
When we got home we called the Jeep in to the Police Non-emergency,
It was not reported stolen, then we were told to call the Sheriff's
office and they were going to go out today check up on the vehicle.
By the way (this is funny), When I was on the phone with the Sheriffs
office , I told the Nice lady where we had spotted the Jeep, She
replied, "Hold on, I think that we were out there already yesterday,
Might be for the same vehicle.", When she came back she replied " No,
that was for a Golf Cart" So someone went Four wheelin with a golf
cart.
Pretty funny Ha!
Larry 87' Wrangler
11854 From: Scott Kruize <osmtj@y...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 9:36pm
Subject: Re: greenies etc.
Nick,
I disagree. I think the public is more aware than ever. Closing lands won't prevent criminals from dumping stolen cars on these lands, nor will it keep them from reckless shooting. Most Jeeps and other 4x4 trucks DO stay on trails. From what I've gathered it's the small OHV's (quads and snowmobiles) that cause the most off the trail damage to the environment. Unfortunately we are lumped into the same category as them by most of the extreme activists.
Scott
.
Nnote wrote:
Every time we talk about staying on the trails and publicly rip into someone for getting off the trail and tearing up the land we exhibit a bit of the greenies in all of us. The same thing goes for everytime we go on a cleanup run. Everyone knows for a fact that you can't let one apple spoil the bunch. There are some crazies and sane people in every cause. I personally feel that there needs to be some land closings. I have not been on one trail when due to the bad apple's there has been beer cans and shotgun shells everywhere. We can't prevent everyone from littering so for awhile the only solution may be to keep people off. If left to human actions this whole state would be overrun with abandoned-shotguned vehicles, beer cans and vandalized cacti. Not pretty. There would be no discipline. Even as grown up's it's obvious that some people need someone or something to control behavior. We have a ton of nice trails open and available. I think this state has room to set some land aside and preserve it. Also because we have an opposing thumb doesn't mean we have the right to squash the owl's. This land isn't ours and our Jeeps alone.
Nick
Nnote@neta.com
Nnote@juno.com
BEGIN:VCARD
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FN:Nick Notestine
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ADR;HOME;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:;;1960 West Keating #273=0D=0A=0D=0A;Mesa;Az;85202;United States
LABEL;HOME;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:1960 West Keating #273=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0AMesa, Az 85202=0D=0AUnited States
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EMAIL;INTERNET:nnote@juno.com
REV:20000821T192429Z
END:VCARD
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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11855 From: <eandkm@u...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 9:13pm
Subject: Re: RE: greenies etc.
God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When I joined this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun. I know these issues are important to our future of wheelin blah blah blah.........Way to much politics here, such a shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with this group anymore.
Erin
"Chatfield, Mike" wrote:
Sorry this isn't meant to be a flame, but it is gonna sting a little.
"Every time we talk about staying on the trails and publicly rip into
someone for getting off the trail and tearing up the land we exhibit a bit
of the greenies in all of us."
Part of our responsibility as OHV owners and Public Land Users is to educate
those new to our sport; this may include tactfully "ripping" into someone
about proper land use. If we stand by and watch as they drive off the trail
and tear up the side of a hill they have no business climbing in the first
place, then we are just as guilty as they are. Proper education of OHV users
should be the foundation of our fight against the EcoTerrorists.
"Everyone knows for a fact that you can't let one apple spoil the bunch.
There are some crazies and sane people in every cause. I personally feel
that there needs to be some land closings. I have not been on one trail when
due to the bad apples there has been beer cans and shotgun shells
everywhere. We can't prevent everyone from littering so for awhile the only
solution may be to keep people off."
First you say that you can't let one bad apple spoil the bunch, and then you
say roads should be closed to prevent those idiots from littering up the
countryside. One thing you have to realize is just because the roads are
"closed" doesn't mean that these idiots are going to stop their behavior;
they're still going to drive out there (or somewhere) and drink their beer
and litter up the place. The only thing you've accomplished is closing the
trail to families who have a legitimate right to be there. In addition, it
is usually areas with relatively easy access that have the most trash. In
other words it's not OHV users that are doing this; it is idiots from the
city out in their mom's car, coming out to drink in the middle of nowhere so
they don't get caught because they are underage. Also closing trails will
only increase traffic on the existing trails; then the Greenies will want to
close those trails because of all the damage being done. Soon you'll ask
someone if they've 4 wheeled in Arizona and they'll say "yea, I did all 4
trails in that state."
"If left to human actions this whole state would be overrun with abandoned
shot-gunned vehicles, beer cans and vandalized cacti. Not pretty. There
would be no discipline."
If left to HUMAN actions? I'd hesitate to call the morons who leave this
kind of trash humans. If left to HUMANS, like everyone I've met from AZVJC
on the trails there would be no need for "clean-ups" because we pack out
what we pack in. We take it upon ourselves to clean up the 50+ years of
trash build up in the desert because we care enough about our land to use it
responsibly and do what we need to keep it open for our children's children.
"We have a ton of nice trails open and available. I think this state has
room to set some land aside and preserve it."
The state has set a lot of land aside; all of the land between trails is off
limits to us. Not to mention places where wilderness areas have been
declared, closing existing roads and trails. There is a lot of land out
there without a single tire track on it. There are places where humans have
not stepped foot for hundreds of years, if ever. Existing roads and trails
do not need to be closed to preserve the land.
"Also because we have an opposing thumb doesn't mean we have the right to
squash the owl's. This land isn't ours and our Jeeps alone."
No the land doesn't belong to OHV, it belongs to Ranchers, Hunters, Hikers,
Bikers, Plants, Animals, Insects, Spiders, etc... When there is a valid
endangered species that needs protection, I don't have any problem with
that. However I do have a problem with EcoTerrorists trying to invent
species. Geographical location does not make a new species (as with the
spotted pigmy owl), skin blemishes and discolored hair does not make a new
species, yet EcoTerrorists will swear up and down that these are new species
because of these differences. If this were the case, then there would be
thousands of species of "Human."
My 2.5 cents worth,
- Mike
Attachment: (image/gif) C:\windows\TEMP\nsmail0C.gif [not stored]
11856 From: <eandkm@u...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 9:14pm
Subject: Re: "For Sale" Postings
This is the "jeep" club isn't it? Or have I been in the wrong place this whole time.
Erin
Thomas Jacobson wrote:
What's the group consensus towards posting non-jeep items for sale on this
list? I'm personally not completely opposed, but don't want to get everyone
ruffled. I've got a great car for sale that I'd like to post details on.
Tom J. (Maybe should have taken the "easier to ask forgiveness than
permission" approach...)
Attachment: (image/gif) C:\windows\TEMP\nsmailEA.gif [not stored]
11857 From: Scott Kruize <osmtj@y...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 9:37pm
Subject: Re: RE: greenies etc.
I think the now famous, not quite official AZVJC response to your statement which I've heard dozens of times goes as follows.........
"If you don't like it use the DELETE key."
Scott
eandkm@uswest.net wrote:
God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When I
joined this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun. I
know these issues are important to our future of wheelin
blah blah blah.........Way to much politics here, such a
shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with this group anymore.
Erin
"Chatfield, Mike" wrote:
> Sorry this isn't meant to be a flame, but it is gonna
> sting a little.
>
> "Every time we talk about staying on the trails and
> publicly rip into
> someone for getting off the trail and tearing up the land
> we exhibit a bit
> of the greenies in all of us."
>
> Part of our responsibility as OHV owners and Public Land
> Users is to educate
> those new to our sport; this may include tactfully
> "ripping" into someone
> about proper land use. If we stand by and watch as they
> drive off the trail
> and tear up the side of a hill they have no business
> climbing in the first
> place, then we are just as guilty as they are. Proper
> education of OHV users
> should be the foundation of our fight against the
> EcoTerrorists.
>
> "Everyone knows for a fact that you can't let one apple
> spoil the bunch.
> There are some crazies and sane people in every cause. I
> personally feel
> that there needs to be some land closings. I have not been
> on one trail when
> due to the bad apples there has been beer cans and shotgun
> shells
> everywhere. We can't prevent everyone from littering so
> for awhile the only
> solution may be to keep people off."
>
> First you say that you can't let one bad apple spoil the
> bunch, and then you
> say roads should be closed to prevent those idiots from
> littering up the
> countryside. One thing you have to realize is just because
> the roads are
> "closed" doesn't mean that these idiots are going to stop
> their behavior;
> they're still going to drive out there (or somewhere) and
> drink their beer
> and litter up the place. The only thing you've
> accomplished is closing the
> trail to families who have a legitimate right to be there.
> In addition, it
> is usually areas with relatively easy access that have the
> most trash. In
> other words it's not OHV users that are doing this; it is
> idiots from the
> city out in their mom's car, coming out to drink in the
> middle of nowhere so
> they don't get caught because they are underage. Also
> closing trails will
> only increase traffic on the existing trails; then the
> Greenies will want to
> close those trails because of all the damage being done.
> Soon you'll ask
> someone if they've 4 wheeled in Arizona and they'll say
> "yea, I did all 4
> trails in that state."
>
> "If left to human actions this whole state would be
> overrun with abandoned
> shot-gunned vehicles, beer cans and vandalized cacti. Not
> pretty. There
> would be no discipline."
>
> If left to HUMAN actions? I'd hesitate to call the morons
> who leave this
> kind of trash humans. If left to HUMANS, like everyone
> I've met from AZVJC
> on the trails there would be no need for "clean-ups"
> because we pack out
> what we pack in. We take it upon ourselves to clean up the
> 50+ years of
> trash build up in the desert because we care enough about
> our land to use it
> responsibly and do what we need to keep it open for our
> children's children.
>
> "We have a ton of nice trails open and available. I think
> this state has
> room to set some land aside and preserve it."
>
> The state has set a lot of land aside; all of the land
> between trails is off
> limits to us. Not to mention places where wilderness areas
> have been
> declared, closing existing roads and trails. There is a
> lot of land out
> there without a single tire track on it. There are places
> where humans have
> not stepped foot for hundreds of years, if ever. Existing
> roads and trails
> do not need to be closed to preserve the land.
>
> "Also because we have an opposing thumb doesn't mean we
> have the right to
> squash the owl's. This land isn't ours and our Jeeps
> alone."
>
> No the land doesn't belong to OHV, it belongs to Ranchers,
> Hunters, Hikers,
> Bikers, Plants, Animals, Insects, Spiders, etc... When
> there is a valid
> endangered species that needs protection, I don't have any
> problem with
> that. However I do have a problem with EcoTerrorists
> trying to invent
> species. Geographical location does not make a new species
> (as with the
> spotted pigmy owl), skin blemishes and discolored hair
> does not make a new
> species, yet EcoTerrorists will swear up and down that
> these are new species
> because of these differences. If this were the case, then
> there would be
> thousands of species of "Human."
>
> My 2.5 cents worth,
>
> - Mike
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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11858 From: az cattledogg <twistedxj@h...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 2:37pm
Subject: Re: RE: greenies etc.
You aint the only one Erin.It is getting out of conrol around hear,I think I
may just stay with the XJ list for awhile.
>From: <eandkm@u...>
>Reply-To: eandkm@u...
>To: "Chatfield, Mike" <mchat@h...>
>CC: "'az_vjc@egroups.com'" <az_vjc@egroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [az_vjc] RE: greenies etc.
>Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:13:00 -0700
>
>God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When I
>joined this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun. I
>know these issues are important to our future of wheelin
>blah blah blah.........Way to much politics here, such a
>shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with this group anymore.
>Erin
>
>"Chatfield, Mike" wrote:
>
> > Sorry this isn't meant to be a flame, but it is gonna
> > sting a little.
> >
> > "Every time we talk about staying on the trails and
> > publicly rip into
> > someone for getting off the trail and tearing up the land
> > we exhibit a bit
> > of the greenies in all of us."
> >
> > Part of our responsibility as OHV owners and Public Land
> > Users is to educate
> > those new to our sport; this may include tactfully
> > "ripping" into someone
> > about proper land use. If we stand by and watch as they
> > drive off the trail
> > and tear up the side of a hill they have no business
> > climbing in the first
> > place, then we are just as guilty as they are. Proper
> > education of OHV users
> > should be the foundation of our fight against the
> > EcoTerrorists.
> >
> > "Everyone knows for a fact that you can't let one apple
> > spoil the bunch.
> > There are some crazies and sane people in every cause. I
> > personally feel
> > that there needs to be some land closings. I have not been
> > on one trail when
> > due to the bad apples there has been beer cans and shotgun
> > shells
> > everywhere. We can't prevent everyone from littering so
> > for awhile the only
> > solution may be to keep people off."
> >
> > First you say that you can't let one bad apple spoil the
> > bunch, and then you
> > say roads should be closed to prevent those idiots from
> > littering up the
> > countryside. One thing you have to realize is just because
> > the roads are
> > "closed" doesn't mean that these idiots are going to stop
> > their behavior;
> > they're still going to drive out there (or somewhere) and
> > drink their beer
> > and litter up the place. The only thing you've
> > accomplished is closing the
> > trail to families who have a legitimate right to be there.
> > In addition, it
> > is usually areas with relatively easy access that have the
> > most trash. In
> > other words it's not OHV users that are doing this; it is
> > idiots from the
> > city out in their mom's car, coming out to drink in the
> > middle of nowhere so
> > they don't get caught because they are underage. Also
> > closing trails will
> > only increase traffic on the existing trails; then the
> > Greenies will want to
> > close those trails because of all the damage being done.
> > Soon you'll ask
> > someone if they've 4 wheeled in Arizona and they'll say
> > "yea, I did all 4
> > trails in that state."
> >
> > "If left to human actions this whole state would be
> > overrun with abandoned
> > shot-gunned vehicles, beer cans and vandalized cacti. Not
> > pretty. There
> > would be no discipline."
> >
> > If left to HUMAN actions? I'd hesitate to call the morons
> > who leave this
> > kind of trash humans. If left to HUMANS, like everyone
> > I've met from AZVJC
> > on the trails there would be no need for "clean-ups"
> > because we pack out
> > what we pack in. We take it upon ourselves to clean up the
> > 50+ years of
> > trash build up in the desert because we care enough about
> > our land to use it
> > responsibly and do what we need to keep it open for our
> > children's children.
> >
> > "We have a ton of nice trails open and available. I think
> > this state has
> > room to set some land aside and preserve it."
> >
> > The state has set a lot of land aside; all of the land
> > between trails is off
> > limits to us. Not to mention places where wilderness areas
> > have been
> > declared, closing existing roads and trails. There is a
> > lot of land out
> > there without a single tire track on it. There are places
> > where humans have
> > not stepped foot for hundreds of years, if ever. Existing
> > roads and trails
> > do not need to be closed to preserve the land.
> >
> > "Also because we have an opposing thumb doesn't mean we
> > have the right to
> > squash the owl's. This land isn't ours and our Jeeps
> > alone."
> >
> > No the land doesn't belong to OHV, it belongs to Ranchers,
> > Hunters, Hikers,
> > Bikers, Plants, Animals, Insects, Spiders, etc... When
> > there is a valid
> > endangered species that needs protection, I don't have any
> > problem with
> > that. However I do have a problem with EcoTerrorists
> > trying to invent
> > species. Geographical location does not make a new species
> > (as with the
> > spotted pigmy owl), skin blemishes and discolored hair
> > does not make a new
> > species, yet EcoTerrorists will swear up and down that
> > these are new species
> > because of these differences. If this were the case, then
> > there would be
> > thousands of species of "Human."
> >
> > My 2.5 cents worth,
> >
> > - Mike
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
__________________________________________________ ______________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
11859 From: keith - alloffroad.com <crusari@p...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 2:37pm
Subject: greenies
we can all ***** and moan about this till our faces turn blue but we still
aren;t doing anything I think everybody in the club knows what we are all
up against but at the same time not many ppl seem to be doing anything I
understand your all busy but why should we ***** amongst ourselves when we
could make the public more aware.
I was part of the terminator ZJ removal friday night on the way in I broke
on the first obstacle instead of stopping there I put my gear into the back
of another jeep and headed on down the trail when I got there I found Bill
Mish and bob trenton working hard to cut up the wreckage and they where the
only ones there I was in a group of 3 jeeps 4 people total a couple other
ppl showed up but all together there where not more than 8 people there
after you where all aware of it after many postings
I was very disappointed in everybody that didn;t have a valid excuse.
even after all three jeeps I was with broke on the way in we still got
there and worked on cutting up the wreckage then when we where done
proceeded to fix the jeeps and head out unfortunately it is never this easy
I ended up camping up there with 2 of the jeeps still broken while
everybody else was running for parts to get them back up and running. I
didn;t think rtwice about it cause I was HELPING my fellow jeepers and
cleaning up the trail so everybody can still see the beauty of the desert
without having to hike 300 miles to see anything other than CLOSED
signs!!!!!
Keith
Editor of www.alloffroad.com
11860 From: <eandkm@u...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 9:36pm
Subject: Re: RE: greenies etc.
Your right Travis, I'm sticking with the xj list from now on, this club has lost it's direction and humor. Good bye, fellow jeepers, yes I said "JEEP".
Oh, by the way I have a lamp for sale, is it ok to waste space on here and post it?? After all just hit "delete" if you don't like it.........................
Erin
az cattledogg wrote:
You aint the only one Erin.It is getting out of conrol around hear,I think I
may just stay with the XJ list for awhile.
>From:
>Reply-To: eandkm@uswest.net
>To: "Chatfield, Mike"
>CC: "'az_vjc@egroups.com'"
>Subject: Re: [az_vjc] RE: greenies etc.
>Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:13:00 -0700
>
>God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When I
>joined this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun. I
>know these issues are important to our future of wheelin
>blah blah blah.........Way to much politics here, such a
>shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with this group anymore.
>Erin
>
>"Chatfield, Mike" wrote:
>
> > Sorry this isn't meant to be a flame, but it is gonna
> > sting a little.
> >
> > "Every time we talk about staying on the trails and
> > publicly rip into
> > someone for getting off the trail and tearing up the land
> > we exhibit a bit
> > of the greenies in all of us."
> >
> > Part of our responsibility as OHV owners and Public Land
> > Users is to educate
> > those new to our sport; this may include tactfully
> > "ripping" into someone
> > about proper land use. If we stand by and watch as they
> > drive off the trail
> > and tear up the side of a hill they have no business
> > climbing in the first
> > place, then we are just as guilty as they are. Proper
> > education of OHV users
> > should be the foundation of our fight against the
> > EcoTerrorists.
> >
> > "Everyone knows for a fact that you can't let one apple
> > spoil the bunch.
> > There are some crazies and sane people in every cause. I
> > personally feel
> > that there needs to be some land closings. I have not been
> > on one trail when
> > due to the bad apples there has been beer cans and shotgun
> > shells
> > everywhere. We can't prevent everyone from littering so
> > for awhile the only
> > solution may be to keep people off."
> >
> > First you say that you can't let one bad apple spoil the
> > bunch, and then you
> > say roads should be closed to prevent those idiots from
> > littering up the
> > countryside. One thing you have to realize is just because
> > the roads are
> > "closed" doesn't mean that these idiots are going to stop
> > their behavior;
> > they're still going to drive out there (or somewhere) and
> > drink their beer
> > and litter up the place. The only thing you've
> > accomplished is closing the
> > trail to families who have a legitimate right to be there.
> > In addition, it
> > is usually areas with relatively easy access that have the
> > most trash. In
> > other words it's not OHV users that are doing this; it is
> > idiots from the
> > city out in their mom's car, coming out to drink in the
> > middle of nowhere so
> > they don't get caught because they are underage. Also
> > closing trails will
> > only increase traffic on the existing trails; then the
> > Greenies will want to
> > close those trails because of all the damage being done.
> > Soon you'll ask
> > someone if they've 4 wheeled in Arizona and they'll say
> > "yea, I did all 4
> > trails in that state."
> >
> > "If left to human actions this whole state would be
> > overrun with abandoned
> > shot-gunned vehicles, beer cans and vandalized cacti. Not
> > pretty. There
> > would be no discipline."
> >
> > If left to HUMAN actions? I'd hesitate to call the morons
> > who leave this
> > kind of trash humans. If left to HUMANS, like everyone
> > I've met from AZVJC
> > on the trails there would be no need for "clean-ups"
> > because we pack out
> > what we pack in. We take it upon ourselves to clean up the
> > 50+ years of
> > trash build up in the desert because we care enough about
> > our land to use it
> > responsibly and do what we need to keep it open for our
> > children's children.
> >
> > "We have a ton of nice trails open and available. I think
> > this state has
> > room to set some land aside and preserve it."
> >
> > The state has set a lot of land aside; all of the land
> > between trails is off
> > limits to us. Not to mention places where wilderness areas
> > have been
> > declared, closing existing roads and trails. There is a
> > lot of land out
> > there without a single tire track on it. There are places
> > where humans have
> > not stepped foot for hundreds of years, if ever. Existing
> > roads and trails
> > do not need to be closed to preserve the land.
> >
> > "Also because we have an opposing thumb doesn't mean we
> > have the right to
> > squash the owl's. This land isn't ours and our Jeeps
> > alone."
> >
> > No the land doesn't belong to OHV, it belongs to Ranchers,
> > Hunters, Hikers,
> > Bikers, Plants, Animals, Insects, Spiders, etc... When
> > there is a valid
> > endangered species that needs protection, I don't have any
> > problem with
> > that. However I do have a problem with EcoTerrorists
> > trying to invent
> > species. Geographical location does not make a new species
> > (as with the
> > spotted pigmy owl), skin blemishes and discolored hair
> > does not make a new
> > species, yet EcoTerrorists will swear up and down that
> > these are new species
> > because of these differences. If this were the case, then
> > there would be
> > thousands of species of "Human."
> >
> > My 2.5 cents worth,
> >
> > - Mike
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
__________________________________________________ ______________________
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11861 From: <eandkm@u...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 9:38pm
Subject: Re: RE: greenies etc.
Thank your for those words of wisdom Scott, while you guys talk about the world, I'm gonna go put my JEEP to bed. Nighty, night.
Erin
Scott Kruize wrote:
I think the now famous, not quite official AZVJC response to your statement which I've heard dozens of times goes as follows.........
"If you don't like it use the DELETE key."
Scott
eandkm@uswest.net wrote:
God damn, you guys on this list are out of control. When I
joined this club there was talk of jeeps and jeeping fun. I
know these issues are important to our future of wheelin
blah blah blah.........Way to much politics here, such a
shame. I'm not sure I want to stay with this group anymore.
Erin
"Chatfield, Mike" wrote:
> Sorry this isn't meant to be a flame, but it is gonna
> sting a little.
>
> "Every time we talk about staying on the trails and
> publicly rip into
> someone for getting off the trail and tearing up the land
> we exhibit a bit
> of the greenies in all of us."
>
> Part of our responsibility as OHV owners and Public Land
> Users is to educate
> those new to our sport; this may include tactfully
> "ripping" into someone
> about proper land use. If we stand by and watch as they
> drive off the trail
> and tear up the side of a hill they have no business
> climbing in the first
> place, then we are just as guilty as they are. Proper
> education of OHV users
> should be the foundation of our fight against the
> EcoTerrorists.
>
> "Everyone knows for a fact that you can't let one apple
> spoil the bunch.
> There are some crazies and sane people in every cause. I
> personally feel
> that there needs to be some land closings. I have not been
> on one trail when
> due to the bad apples there has been beer cans and shotgun
> shells
> everywhere. We can't prevent everyone from littering so
> for awhile the only
> solution may be to keep people off."
>
> First you say that you can't let one bad apple spoil the
> bunch, and then you
> say roads should be closed to prevent those idiots from
> littering up the
> countryside. One thing you have to realize is just because
> the roads are
> "closed" doesn't mean that these idiots are going to stop
> their behavior;
> they're still going to drive out there (or somewhere) and
> drink their beer
> and litter up the place. The only thing you've
> accomplished is closing the
> trail to families who have a legitimate right to be there.
> In addition, it
> is usually areas with relatively easy access that have the
> most trash. In
> other words it's not OHV users that are doing this; it is
> idiots from the
> city out in their mom's car, coming out to drink in the
> middle of nowhere so
> they don't get caught because they are underage. Also
> closing trails will
> only increase traffic on the existing trails; then the
> Greenies will want to
> close those trails because of all the damage being done.
> Soon you'll ask
> someone if they've 4 wheeled in Arizona and they'll say
> "yea, I did all 4
> trails in that state."
>
> "If left to human actions this whole state would be
> overrun with abandoned
> shot-gunned vehicles, beer cans and vandalized cacti. Not
> pretty. There
> would be no discipline."
>
> If left to HUMAN actions? I'd hesitate to call the morons
> who leave this
> kind of trash humans. If left to HUMANS, like everyone
> I've met from AZVJC
> on the trails there would be no need for "clean-ups"
> because we pack out
> what we pack in. We take it upon ourselves to clean up the
> 50+ years of
> trash build up in the desert because we care enough about
> our land to use it
> responsibly and do what we need to keep it open for our
> children's children.
>
> "We have a ton of nice trails open and available. I think
> this state has
> room to set some land aside and preserve it."
>
> The state has set a lot of land aside; all of the land
> between trails is off
> limits to us. Not to mention places where wilderness areas
> have been
> declared, closing existing roads and trails. There is a
> lot of land out
> there without a single tire track on it. There are places
> where humans have
> not stepped foot for hundreds of years, if ever. Existing
> roads and trails
> do not need to be closed to preserve the land.
>
> "Also because we have an opposing thumb doesn't mean we
> have the right to
> squash the owl's. This land isn't ours and our Jeeps
> alone."
>
> No the land doesn't belong to OHV, it belongs to Ranchers,
> Hunters, Hikers,
> Bikers, Plants, Animals, Insects, Spiders, etc... When
> there is a valid
> endangered species that needs protection, I don't have any
> problem with
> that. However I do have a problem with EcoTerrorists
> trying to invent
> species. Geographical location does not make a new species
> (as with the
> spotted pigmy owl), skin blemishes and discolored hair
> does not make a new
> species, yet EcoTerrorists will swear up and down that
> these are new species
> because of these differences. If this were the case, then
> there would be
> thousands of species of "Human."
>
> My 2.5 cents worth,
>
> - Mike
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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11862 From: Stu Olson <solson8@u...>
Date: Mon Aug 21, 2000 10:04pm
Subject: RE: greenies
Keith,
Nice comments....and thank you for taking your Jeep in to help get the XJ
out.
You said "even after all three jeeps I was with broke on the way in....",
well you now know why I was not there. I have no desire to run the
Terminator.
On the flip side, I will be out this coming Saturday for the White Tanks
clean up. I can negotiate that area and I'll drive my vehicle home when I
am done for the day.
I am sorry that I don't meet your expectations for a Jeeper that doesn't
mind breaking his vehicle. We all help in ways that we can. Don't worry
about Saturday, you have certainly done your share for this month.
Stu
Stu Olson N7QJP
Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
http://www.qsl.net/n7qjp/
http://home.off-road.com/~stu
http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
Developer of VKE Digital Voice Keyer
-----Original Message-----
From: keith - alloffroad.com [mailto:crusari@p...]
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 2:37 PM
To: 'az_vjc@egroups.com'
Subject: [az_vjc] greenies
we can all ***** and moan about this till our faces turn blue but we still
aren;t doing anything I think everybody in the club knows what we are all
up against but at the same time not many ppl seem to be doing anything I
understand your all busy but why should we ***** amongst ourselves when we
could make the public more aware.
I was part of the terminator ZJ removal friday night on the way in I broke
on the first obstacle instead of stopping there I put my gear into the back
of another jeep and headed on down the trail when I got there I found Bill
Mish and bob trenton working hard to cut up the wreckage and they where the
only ones there I was in a group of 3 jeeps 4 people total a couple other
ppl showed up but all together there where not more than 8 people there
after you where all aware of it after many postings
I was very disappointed in everybody that didn;t have a valid excuse.
even after all three jeeps I was with broke on the way in we still got
there and worked on cutting up the wreckage then when we where done
proceeded to fix the jeeps and head out unfortunately it is never this easy
I ended up camping up there with 2 of the jeeps still broken while
everybody else was running for parts to get them back up and running. I
didn;t think rtwice about it cause I was HELPING my fellow jeepers and
cleaning up the trail so everybody can still see the beauty of the desert
without having to hike 300 miles to see anything other than CLOSED
signs!!!!!
Keith
Editor of www.alloffroad.com