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Sandee McCullen
10-01-2004, 10:01 PM
IMPORTANT............ Please READ.

OHV Clubs/Groups..............
A reminder about the Site Steward clinic next Saturday........ Oct. 9.

If your group has any intention of adopting a special trail in the future........... State Land, BLM or FS,.............. They will have to have someone attend this clinic to certify. It truly is important that we show our support re "respecting our lands and resources"..................

You know OHV's are taking most of the blame for wildcaters and destruction................ It's important everyone get involved and show the agencies we're not all jerks. Please check into your membership and find someone willing to attend this clinic. At this time I have only 5 ASA4WDC clubs represented................. This is out of 24. There are none from AzVJC, ATV Riders, ATR, or indepentant OHV groups. You will NOT be allowed to adopt a trail if someone from your group does not attend this clinic. PLEASE join us to help the fight against closures.

Information below.

Thanks, Sandee

Please RSVP to me at: mccullen@writeme.com



IMPORTANT MESSAGE................... THIS IS A ONE TIME CHANCE....................... WE MUST GET OUR PEOPLE INVOLVED. IT ONLY REQUIRES ONE OR TWO FROM EACH CLUB OR GROUP THAT WOULD BE "ADOPTING" A TRAIL........................ THIS INCLUDES ALL LANDS. STATE TRUST, BLM AND FOREST SERVICE.

The new BLM Adopt-A-Trail agreement has been accepted and part of the requirements within these adoptions will be that at least one person from each group or club must have participated in at least the first half of the State Cultural Site Stewardship program. This first part is simply for information. If anyone wants to continue through and be an official Site Steward they must attend the "on the ground" portion schedule for November 7, 2004.

Forest Service Adopt-A-Trail program will most likely follow this program in the near future................

It is important for us to all understand the resources on our trails so any of our "adoptions" must adhere to some restrictions.

PLEASE encourage at one or two from your club to attend at least the first classroom portion on October 9 in Florence.

Please RSVP Sandee McCullen at: mccullen@writeme.com

DO NOT USE "REPLY" AS THE HOTMAIL ADDRESS IS USED FOR "OUT" MAIL ONLY. Thanks. RSVP to: mccullen@writeme.com


PASS THIS INFORMATION ON TO YOUR CLUB MEMBERS OR ANYONE YOU FEEL WOULD BE INTERESTED.


Site Steward Program
October 9, 2004
8:30 a.m.
McFarland Park
Florence AZ


Join the state’s largest volunteer effort to protect the cultural remains of Arizona’s past.
The Arizona Site Steward Program, sponsored by the State Historic Preservation Office/Arizona State Parks, is a statewide network of volunteers who monitor archaeological/cultural sites for the various federal, state, county and municipal land managers. The following training as been scheduled on behalf of the Bureau of Land Management for those involved with the Adopt a Trail Program:

Saturday, October 9, 2004
McFarland State Historic Park
(At the corner of Main Street & Ruggles in Florence, AZ)

8:30 a.m. – Noon Classroom Training conducted by
Mary Estes, Site Steward Program Coordinator
State Historic Preservation Office

Members of the Adopt a Trail Program may take the Classroom Training only; to be certified as an Arizona Site Steward you must also complete the Field Training. Please RSVP to Sandy at mccullen@writeme.com by October 4, 2004.

Sunday, November 7, 2004
8:30 a.m. – Noon Field Training

Meet Scott Wood, the Tonto Forest Archaeologist, at the Cave Creek Ranger Station on Bartlett Lake Road
(Scottsdale Road north to Cave Creek Road, turn east (right) to Bartlett Lake Road. Or take I-17 to the Carefree Highway and go east to Tom Darlington , then north to Cave Creek Road and right to Bartlett Lake Road. The ranger station is about 1/2 mile east on Bartlett Lake Road). Please bring your lunch and drinking water for the morning. Dress appropriately for the cool weather. If it rains, the training will be canceled and rescheduled.

Antman
01-29-2006, 10:38 AM
This may not have anything to do with adopting trails in the NFS areas. We need to find out if "we" as a non-organized group can adopt trails in the National Forest. Mesa Four Wheelers are the Adoptors of the Log Corral and Mud Springs trains in the Tonto National Forest and both of these trails are in neglect! Log Corral needs bushes to be trimmed back, and Mud Springs has road wash outs that need to be filled or fixed. Anyone here from that club that knows whats going on? There are other trails I have run in the last year that are supposedly adopted and need logs removed or bushes trimmed. I dont know if you folks have heard, but Payette Draw is rumored to be closed in 2009. The road that parrallels it is adopted by one of the Payson clubs and the FS told them its on a close list. Any info on this?

Do we have any one on here who is a certified site steward? Anyone who is the go to guy in their club for an adopted trail?

I know its late Sandee. and I dont know how I missed this before, but hopefully someone didnt.

Sandee McCullen
01-29-2006, 12:00 PM
This may not have anything to do with adopting trails in the NFS areas. We need to find out if "we" as a non-organized group can adopt trails in the National Forest. Mesa Four Wheelers are the Adoptors of the Log Corral and Mud Springs trains in the Tonto National Forest and both of these trails are in neglect! Log Corral needs bushes to be trimmed back, and Mud Springs has road wash outs that need to be filled or fixed. Anyone here from that club that knows whats going on? There are other trails I have run in the last year that are supposedly adopted and need logs removed or bushes trimmed. I dont know if you folks have heard, but Payette Draw is rumored to be closed in 2009. The road that parrallels it is adopted by one of the Payson clubs and the FS told them its on a close list. Any info on this?

Do we have any one on here who is a certified site steward? Anyone who is the go to guy in their club for an adopted trail?

I know its late Sandee. and I dont know how I missed this before, but hopefully someone didnt.

This is difficult to explain but first of all F/S Adopt-a-Roads do not yet require anyone being a site steward but yes, we do have numerous "site stewards" among us.

Second point of issue....... no club or group can do trimming and/or maintenance without the direct permission of the Forest District Supervisor. They can certainly "clean" by the way of moving logs etc but trimming is still a sore point with agencies.

I haven't heard anything direct regarding "proposed closures" but if we have a problem we MUST attend the scoping meetings and let the districts know of our concerns. I'll check with Tonto next week to follow up on the status of "designations" and where it's all going.

Lastly, ANYONE,.......... individual or group can "adopt" a road/trail within the National Forests. The BLM plan is still at a standstill but I'm working on it............ Adopting roads/trails will not guarantee our access but it certainly cannot hurt.

This is one issue that should be addressed at the BLM meeting regarding the Florence Junction trails scheduled for February 25th.

Linda
01-29-2006, 12:23 PM
Please be advised that the trail adoption program is not to make sure that the trees and shrubs that line the trails are neatly trimmed and that potholes are filled. When a club adopts a trail it is taking on the responsibility of assuring that the trail doesn't get closed due to dangerous conditions.

Log Corral Trail was adopted by the Mesa 4-Wheelers. I am sure there are some M4W members that occassionally visit this forum and who will note your comments and take them back to their club.

Mud Springs Trail was adopted by the Arizona Lo Rangers 4WDC. As a member of the AZLR4WDC I will pass along your "assessment". The club performs maintenance on that trail 1-2 times per year. We usually do maintenance after the winter & spring rains are over.

The Pyatte Draw trail is the actual numbered forest road that parallels the draw and was adopted by the Rim Country 4-Wheelers. Driving in the draw itself has been and always will be illegal. According to the USFS, unless you are a handicapped driver with the appropriate credentials, driving off the established road is illegal. Most washes, creek beds, and river beds in NFs are off limits to motorized travel unless they are marked as trails or part of an official OHV trail network.

Joining an organized 4x4 club is worth the effort. I would strongly encourage you to join one of the many 4x4 clubs in Arizona that are part of the ASA4WDC. or start one of your own. It's one of the best ways you can help the sport.

k7mto
01-29-2006, 02:03 PM
When I got my new Bulldog area permit from the FS in late Dec., I asked them about adopting Willow Springs. The person at the counter said, and I quote "we don't have an adopt a trail program". She said I could contact the ranger in charge of the area and schedule a time with them when we could go out and do a cleanup, but that they have no official adopt a trail program. Seems they need to get their story straight.

Sandee McCullen
01-29-2006, 02:27 PM
When I got my new Bulldog area permit from the FS in late Dec., I asked them about adopting Willow Springs. The person at the counter said, and I quote "we don't have an adopt a trail program". She said I could contact the ranger in charge of the area and schedule a time with them when we could go out and do a cleanup, but that they have no official adopt a trail program. Seems they need to get their story straight.

That's interesting................. I'll look into it. The Tonto, Mesa District Office has several new staff. FS is the only agency that have had an official Adopt-a-Trail program for years. You might want to try the Tonto Supervisors office on McDowell. I believe all Adopt-a-Trail agreements have been through this office. Actually contact Tammy Pike at: 602 225-5235

T.C.'S TOY
01-29-2006, 03:03 PM
Please Keep This Info Coming We Need To Know What To Do......Thom (T.C.'s Toy):)

Antman
01-29-2006, 03:06 PM
Please be advised that the trail adoption program is not to make sure that the trees and shrubs that line the trails are neatly trimmed and that potholes are filled. When a club adopts a trail it is taking on the responsibility of assuring that the trail doesn't get closed due to dangerous conditions.

Log Corral Trail was adopted by the Mesa 4-Wheelers. I am sure there are some M4W members that occassionally visit this forum and who will note your comments and take them back to their club.

Mud Springs Trail was adopted by the Arizona Lo Rangers 4WDC. As a member of the AZLR4WDC I will pass along your "assessment". The club performs maintenance on that trail 1-2 times per year. We usually do maintenance after the winter & spring rains are over.

The Pyatte Draw trail is the actual numbered forest road that parallels the draw and was adopted by the Rim Country 4-Wheelers. Driving in the draw itself has been and always will be illegal. According to the USFS, unless you are a handicapped driver with the appropriate credentials, driving off the established road is illegal. Most washes, creek beds, and river beds in NFs are off limits to motorized travel unless they are marked as trails or part of an official OHV trail network.

Joining an organized 4x4 club is worth the effort. I would strongly encourage you to join one of the many 4x4 clubs in Arizona that are part of the ASA4WDC. or start one of your own. It's one of the best ways you can help the sport.


If that is the case, driving in Payette Draw is Illegal! Therefore there is no Payette Draw trail! I have had discussions with numerous FS officials who told me it "IS" legal to drive in a wash as long as you dont impact the fauna. I was also told you cant make "a road" by driving in a wash. I think explanation is necessary at some point. Rim Country 4 Wheelers have adopted the road that parallels and crosses Payette numerous times. I was told by a FS official if a road crossed back and forth on a wash, you can drive from point A to point B up the wash between the crossings. We have the same scenerio up here in Sitgraves on Brookbank wash. As long as you dont disturb the fauna, which BTW gets jumbled with every runoff.

T.C.'S TOY
01-29-2006, 03:29 PM
If that is the case, driving in Payette Draw is Illegal! Therefore there is no Payette Draw trail! I have had discussions with numerous FS officials who told me it "IS" legal to drive in a wash as long as you dont impact the fauna. I was also told you cant make "a road" by driving in a wash. I think explanation is necessary at some point. Rim Country 4 Wheelers have adopted the road that parallels and crosses Payette numerous times. I was told by a FS official if a road crossed back and forth on a wash, you can drive from point A to point B up the wash between the crossings. We have the same scenerio up here in Sitgraves on Brookbank wash. As long as you dont disturb the fauna, which BTW gets jumbled with every runoff.


YA BILL WE WERE TOLD THE SAME THING BY FORESTRY UP HERE IN PAYSON THERE SEEMS TO BE NO PROBLEM RUNNING WASHES AS LONG AS YOU PICKUP YOUR GARBAGE,,,SUCH AS U JOINTS AND BREAKAGE OF ANYKIND, AND THIS WAS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF RANGER WALT THORP.AS FAR AS LEAVING A TRAIL OF ANYKIND WHAT HAPPENS TO THAT TRAIL THE FIRST TIME WATER RAGES THREW IT?????THOM (T.C.'S TOY)

Sandee McCullen
01-29-2006, 03:47 PM
YA BILL WE WERE TOLD THE SAME THING BY FORESTRY UP HERE IN PAYSON THERE SEEMS TO BE NO PROBLEM RUNNING WASHES AS LONG AS YOU PICKUP YOUR GARBAGE,,,SUCH AS U JOINTS AND BREAKAGE OF ANYKIND, AND THIS WAS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF RANGER WALT THORP.AS FAR AS LEAVING A TRAIL OF ANYKIND WHAT HAPPENS TO THAT TRAIL THE FIRST TIME WATER RAGES THREW IT?????THOM (T.C.'S TOY)

This is right and wrong at the same time................ They are not necessarily considered illegal since "cross country travel" has been legal in most of the Arizona forests. FS is just now getting to the point that they are recognizing trails/routes other than the standard "signed roads". The washes are simply in a "grey area" right now depending on the District Supervisor. We will have to bring these specific "routes" to the attention of the route designations as we progress. The new forest plan is giving up to 5 years to do designations. The individual forests simply do not have the dollars to do complete route inventories so it's going to be up to us to let them know where we have trails we want to see open access to. Do GPS coordinances and submit along with substantive reasons this specific route is needed and the level it is used for. FS does recognize (under the new Forest Plan) that there are specific use routes as well as areas. We need to keep involved in the upcoming planning..................

Antman
01-29-2006, 04:20 PM
This is right and wrong at the same time................ They are not necessarily considered illegal since "cross country travel" has been legal in most of the Arizona forests. FS is just now getting to the point that they are recognizing trails/routes other than the standard "signed roads". The washes are simply in a "grey area" right now depending on the District Supervisor. We will have to bring these specific "routes" to the attention of the route designations as we progress. The new forest plan is giving up to 5 years to do designations. The individual forests simply do not have the dollars to do complete route inventories so it's going to be up to us to let them know where we have trails we want to see open access to. Do GPS coordinances and submit along with substantive reasons this specific route is needed and the level it is used for. FS does recognize (under the new Forest Plan) that there are specific use routes as well as areas. We need to keep involved in the upcoming planning..................

Thanks Sandee, then this is what must be done for these particular routes. We need to get gps coordinates and get them into the plan. I know this has been done on a lot of the BLM/State Trust land trails, but how many people run the "special trails" in the FS areas? When you do, get it gps'd. Not sure thats a word.......:p

Linda
01-29-2006, 06:36 PM
Hmmm...

I hope you have the name of that specific district manager who says it's okay for you to be traveling cross country in the Tonto National Forest. If you have a legitimate source for information regarding this "gray area", please post it.


Off-Highway Vehicles

This USDA Forest Service has many primitive, seldom maintained National Forest System roads that are generally available for OHV use, including ATV's.

With two exceptions, travel off all National Forest System Roads is prohibited.

Campgrounds and other recreation sites are maintained for passenger vehicles and are off limits to ATV's, etc.

In conjunction with Arizona State Parks OHV Program,
the Tonto National Forest has established two areas for the dedicated use of OHV's.

They Are:
Rolls OHV Area (.pdf)
Bulldog Canyon OHV Area (.pdf)
ref: http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/tonto/recreation/rec-ohv-index.shtml

T.C.'S TOY
01-30-2006, 02:19 PM
Hmmm...

I hope you have the name of that specific district manager who says it's okay for you to be traveling cross country in the Tonto National Forest. If you have a legitimate source for information regarding this "gray area", please post it.


ref: http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/tonto/recreation/rec-ohv-index.shtml

LINDA I WILL SAY THIS I DO HAVE THE NAME OF THIS RANGER AND IAM NOT HERE TO ARGUE ABOUT WHATS RIGHT OR WRONG BUT AT THE SAME TIME I CONNOT GET THINGS IN WRITING FROM FORESTRY ABOUT ANYTHING,I WAS TOLD THE 1602 WITCH RUNS PARRALEL TO PAYUTTE DRAW WAS ADOPTED BY RIM COUNTRY AND THE WASH WAS CONSIDERD AS BEING ADOPTED AS WELL SINCE THE WASH WAS SO POPULAR.IN TIMES PAST WHEN WE HAD JP MAGAZINE ALONG WITH SPORT UTILITY MAG.FORESTRY WAS ALL FOR IT AS THE SCENERY AND WELL MAINTAINED MAINTENACE WAS VERY POPULAR WITH BOTH PARTY'S.I HAVE JUST NOW RECIEVED INFO AT RIM COUNTRY'S LAST MEETING THAT THIS ADOPTED TRAIL WAS SCHEDULED TO BE CLOSED BY FORESTRY IN 2009,SO RIGHT NOW IAM VERY CONFUSED AS TO WHY FORESTRY HAS GOT THE RIGHT TO CLOSE AN ADOPTED WELL MAINTAINED TRIAL OF BOTH THE WASH AND THE 1602......THOM (T.C.'S TOY)

Sandee McCullen
01-30-2006, 04:18 PM
Please Keep This Info Coming We Need To Know What To Do......Thom (T.C.'s Toy):)

I've passed your questions / responses / concerns on to Tammy Pike, Tonto OHV Manager. I'll post her response as soon as I receive it.

In reality we're all a little bit correct but the bottom line is WE MUST GET INVOLVED in the ongoing planning. Don't let Rim Country rule this roost. Tammy is going to forward contact information for us to contact the right persons and get involved in the planning. No one can say what is or isn't going to be closed or open at this time. What we can be sure of is "We WILL LOSE a lot if we don't get involved".

Linda
01-30-2006, 07:00 PM
The internet is a public forum. Please be careful when posting information on legal issues regarding trails and trail usage. Posting information that is wrong, misleading, or incomplete, and without references can (will?) make responsible 4-wheelers look irresponsible. It can also destroy your credibility as well as everybody involved in the sport of 4-wheeling... And it helps the eco-terrorists look good.

Linda
01-30-2006, 07:02 PM
Thanks Sandee! It will be interesting to hear what the Tonto folks are doing.

Sandee McCullen
01-30-2006, 08:41 PM
The internet is a public forum. Please be careful when posting information on legal issues regarding trails and trail usage. Posting information that is wrong, misleading, or incomplete, and without references can (will?) make responsible 4-wheelers look irresponsible. It can also destroy your credibility as well as everybody involved in the sport of 4-wheeling... And it helps the eco-terrorists look good.

I don't believe there has been any "legal" or "illegal" issues posted. There have been legitimate questions regarding what we can do where and when. If anything, the agencies and the enviros can tell the OHV community is concerned about the resources and the need for responsible riding. I have sent your concerns on to the Tonto OHV Manager and I'm sure she will respond to your issues and/or questions soon. She did already say "washes are not necessarily illegal (Tonto has had legal cross country use until the new rule came out) and she also noted we needed to be involved in inventory and planning under the new planning rule. FS are no longer functioning exactly as they have in the past. They recognize the need for managing for responsible recreation and if that means new trails or recreation areas that's what they will do in partnership with the users.

Antman
01-31-2006, 09:18 AM
Thank you again Sandee.:D .......................................:)

T.C.'S TOY
01-31-2006, 01:28 PM
Thank you Sandee..Thom

Sandee McCullen
02-01-2006, 07:18 PM
Thanks Sandee! It will be interesting to hear what the Tonto folks are doing.

Below is Tammy's answer referencing "cross country"; "washes"; "designation vs closures"; "Adopt-A-Trails" and the need to get involved......... Hope this helps. Sandee

Please bear with me in this message. My answers may be briefer than normal because I have my left arm in a cast again. :( Thank goodness for spell check. :)

First all of you need to get involved in the Travel Mgmt. (OHV) planning.
Where ever you recreate on the Forest(s) you need to contact that Ranger District and ask how you can be involved. You could divide the districts
up among members and have a rep contact one district a piece. I have said
for years that you should get involved on the local level. NOW IT IS CRITICAL THAT YOU DO SO. We have less than 4 years to designate all roads and trails on every forest unit. If you do not get involved now, we may not know routes that you want and why.

Second until this designation is completed, the Tonto still has two districts that are technically open to cross country travel. We would prefer you stay on existing routes. Under the new National Travel Mgmt (OHV) rule, cross country travel will be illegal once designations are completed. Once designation is completed and the Motor Vehicle Use Map is available, use off of the designated routes will be illegal. Use off of the designated routes will be illegal / considered like cross country travel. If cross country travel was illegal now (before designation is completed) all user created routes would be closed because they are not on our official NF Transportation System.

Third the Forest Service does have the Adopt-a-road (trail) program. It is more active on some districts than others. You are correct that vegetation
management must cleared by the District first. Mesa currently uses
volunteers for projects more than the adopt-a- program.

Lastly a route may be in, go through, etc. a wash. We are very protective of riparian areas and washes but that does not mean a route can never be in a wash. I am not aware of any planned closure for 1602 or Payutte Draw (198), both are adopted by Rim Country.

If you have further questions or want to clarify information, please feel free to contact me. I look forward to your involvement in the coming planning.

Thanx,

Tammy Pike
OHV Coordinator, Tonto National Forest
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Phone: (602) 225-5235 Fax: (602) 225-5295
email: tpike@fs.fed.us
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

T.C.'S TOY
02-01-2006, 07:30 PM
Below is Tammy's answer referencing "cross country"; "washes"; "designation vs closures"; "Adopt-A-Trails" and the need to get involved......... Hope this helps. Sandee

Please bear with me in this message. My answers may be briefer than normal because I have my left arm in a cast again. :( Thank goodness for spell check. :)

First all of you need to get involved in the Travel Mgmt. (OHV) planning.
Where ever you recreate on the Forest(s) you need to contact that Ranger District and ask how you can be involved. You could divide the districts
up among members and have a rep contact one district a piece. I have said
for years that you should get involved on the local level. NOW IT IS CRITICAL THAT YOU DO SO. We have less than 4 years to designate all roads and trails on every forest unit. If you do not get involved now, we may not know routes that you want and why.

Second until this designation is completed, the Tonto still has two districts that are technically open to cross country travel. We would prefer you stay on existing routes. Under the new National Travel Mgmt (OHV) rule, cross country travel will be illegal once designations are completed. Once designation is completed and the Motor Vehicle Use Map is available, use off of the designated routes will be illegal. Use off of the designated routes will be illegal / considered like cross country travel. If cross country travel was illegal now (before designation is completed) all user created routes would be closed because they are not on our official NF Transportation System.

Third the Forest Service does have the Adopt-a-road (trail) program. It is more active on some districts than others. You are correct that vegetation
management must cleared by the District first. Mesa currently uses
volunteers for projects more than the adopt-a- program.

Lastly a route may be in, go through, etc. a wash. We are very protective of riparian areas and washes but that does not mean a route can never be in a wash. I am not aware of any planned closure for 1602 or Payutte Draw (198), both are adopted by Rim Country.

If you have further questions or want to clarify information, please feel free to contact me. I look forward to your involvement in the coming planning.

Thanx,

Tammy Pike
OHV Coordinator, Tonto National Forest
><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
Phone: (602) 225-5235 Fax: (602) 225-5295
email: tpike@fs.fed.us
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><


ONCE AGAIN THANK YOU SANDEE AND TO YOU ALSO TAMMY....THOM (T.C.'S TOY)

T.C.'S TOY
02-09-2006, 07:27 PM
YA KNOW WHAT FOR SOMEBODY THATS NEVER BEEN OUT OF THE BARN YER SURE SELF PERGRATORY.....T.C.:rolleyes: