Trailhead signs...

[roger]

Here is an example of what we'll probably be seeing:

http://www.windnwater.com/pictures/072404album/pages/atitle_jpg.htm

(This is from a trail in Colorado.)

-Roger

[roger]

Here's another sign further into the same trail:

http://www.windnwater.com/pictures/072404album/pages/IMG_6075_jpg.htm

-Roger

[Antman]

I like those Roger! Thanks for posting them. :D

[roger]

One more. These folks seem to have things figured out.

http://www.windnwater.com/pictures/072404album/pages/IMG_6122_jpg.htm

-Roger

[jeepsonly]

Those are nice. Wish we could do that.

[BRUZR]

Those are nice. Wish we could do that.

Why can't we?

[Devil Man]

Looks Good :)

[katvans]

OK - is this a joke or what?? :rolleyes:

If not, those signs must be really new.

THERE ARE NO HOLES IN THEM. :confused:

Just an observation. Signs on the trail in AZ would be so shot up you would not be able to read them. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try it.

Rich :D

[jeep4offrd]

I think we deffinitely should do this. Hey Sandee. Didnt the folks at the save sycamore meeting say they would be willing to throw in some $$$ towards signs. We could take up a collection for the difference. I'd be interested in just how much these signs would cost to have made up. Anyone know of someone who could make these up?
Bruce

[Sandee McCullen]

I think we deffinitely should do this. Hey Sandee. Didnt the folks at the save sycamore meeting say they would be willing to throw in some $$$ towards signs. We could take up a collection for the difference. I'd be interested in just how much these signs would cost to have made up. Anyone know of someone who could make these up?
Bruce

This is what we're working towards............... I know the BLM planner that did these signs and guess what................ he's looking at using signs similar to those I've proposed for his new signs. Just getting the BLM offices and/or agencies to be consistent is a huge step................ when this is all said and done BLM will fund the signs. I'm sure they will ask for our help with labor however.

I'm frustrated guys................ I get slammed for weeks and then out of the clear blue someone likes almost the same thing that Arizona has been considering...............

Right now is not the time for me to answer much of this. I've just spent 20 hours (two days) in route evaluation meetings for the FJ trails. I'm certainly not willing to "throw in the towel" but because of the abuse or lack of "LEAVE NO TRACE" the general vote is leaning towards closing ALL technical trails in this area. Today alone leaned towards closing Lower Woodpecker, Middle Woodpecker; Woody's Wash; Orvilles Loop; Jackhandle; Upper Ajax and severly restrict Lower Ajax. Most the the "fingers and side trails" off Mineral Mtn Rd they want closed and we haven't even touched on Upper Woodpecker, H2H, Axle Alley, Overdose, Bad Medicine etc........... Before everyone explodes let me explain the process...... simply if I can.
The evaluation team right now is put to the task of coming up with 3 alternatives to offer the agencies. Basically: Open, Closed and a compromise somewhere in between. From these three a "preferred alternative" is produced. So far I believe the members of the MGCP will still be involved in this process but as I stressed to the leaders today............ I don't see us getting any further ahead than we are now. WE still do have the ability to again get our views in if the "preferred alternative" follows something we cannot work with and that would be after the DRAFT RMP is presented. We would then have 90 days to respond WITH FACTS and DATA to change something. This is where I am POUNDING the use of "SIGNS"........... Educational; Requirements; Interpretive; Informational etc etc......... IF they allow us to try the signs along with self management we had best be able to hold up to this or there is a guarantee of closure across the board. I admit Az Game & Fish are the worst. They feel EVERY wash should be closed to OHV (except hunters of course). No wash, under any circumstances should be open to OHV. They are pushing (and are very successful within the "proposed alternatives" to CLOSE 2/3 of ALL trails in the FJ area.......... That pretty much leaves Cottonwood Canyon and Mineral Mountain and a couple of trails that lead to mining operations.

RE: Friends of Sycamore........... Forest Service certainly won't divvy up funds to BLM for BLM trails but we do have funds available through some of the grants................ re "us picking up the difference"??????? I cannot get AZVJC to help Hunter with ORBA and I have been asking for ONE simple sign for the top of Lower Terminator for over a year.......... Yes, there is a handful of you that are more than willing to take the step forward to help but simply put..................... there is not enough willing to handle the job.

I'll answer more when I'm in a more positive frame of mind .........

[rolled1]

I tried stating this before and got shut down but nearly EVERY trail in the FJ area is there because of the miners there. All of the mines are still active in this area and it is our RIGHT to transverse these trails to make a living. That includes ALL trails in and to our claims and what has been grandfathered in.
We helped close the area at Ironwood , and now where do the quads go? Box canyon. To MY CLAIM!!!! trashing the place, building berms on the corners with thier hot rodding around the corners, ROCK STACKING, Trash dumping a.. holes.
We (jeepers) are not the ones trashing this area, Its the quads, dirt bikers, weekend warriors and so forth. I have been transversing FJ area for almost 30 years and have never seen it this bad. If we need to harp on someone lets get it right!!!! Lets start getting on the ones that do the damage not the ones who keep the place up. Thats MY HOME have some respect!!!!!!!! If you want to flame me for speaking my mind, fine... try getting to martinez cabin without crossing my claim.
TERRY :mad:

[Sandee McCullen]

I tried stating this before and got shut down but nearly EVERY trail in the FJ area is there because of the miners there. All of the mines are still active in this area and it is our RIGHT to transverse these trails to make a living. That includes ALL trails in and to our claims and what has been grandfathered in.
We helped close the area at Ironwood , and now where do the quads go? Box canyon. To MY CLAIM!!!! trashing the place, building berms on the corners with thier hot rodding around the corners, ROCK STACKING, Trash dumping a.. holes.
We (jeepers) are not the ones trashing this area, Its the quads, dirt bikers, weekend warriors and so forth. I have been transversing FJ area for almost 30 years and have never seen it this bad. If we need to harp on someone lets get it right!!!! Lets start getting on the ones that do the damage not the ones who keep the place up. Thats MY HOME have some respect!!!!!!!! If you want to flame me for speaking my mind, fine... try getting to martinez cabin without crossing my claim.
TERRY :mad:

Sorry to disappoint you but the quads and bikes are not the ones "rock stacking" and making by-passes on OUR trails.............. they are "braiding" trails and doing donuts and riding wherever and yes, are a big part of the bad name against OHV but they are not abusing our technical trails........... our own are doing this.

If you are a miner with an active mine you would be allowed access to YOUR mine or claim.......... not every road/trail out there. How many of US have a mine claim or patented mine property? Not many................ the ASA4WDC owns the Woodpecker mine but guess what our access would be?............. you've got it........... the back way up from the Lower Ajax ROAD.

I truly understand what you're saying but it's going to take ALL of us to work through this. If and when the 4-wheelers showing respect and the oil, abuse, rock stacking and by-passes stop, we can then start pushing the quads and bikes into "managed PARKS" if they cannot behave on the lands/trails......... but first WE have to prove to be respectful. All 4-wheelers do not have halos on. Sometimes it's due to lack of education about what we truly can/should do; sometimes it's simply "not thinking" and sometimes it's outright ABUSE because they don't care.

I know as do all of you........... no agency is going to be able to CLOSE EVERYTHING but they sure as "H" can close ALL the trails WE USE. One of the idiot proposals from today's workshop was: "close the entire FJ area from OHV from February - May". Oh yeh, ........... stupid, idiocy, unbelieveable, possible.........????.............. probably not but if enough people feel like this who knows. The ranchers would love for OHV to be banned..... most miners would love for OHV to be banned, local residents, Air Quality Control departments, and Game & Fish without a doubt. I agree with you that 90%+ of the roads in FJ are "miners made" but the greenies simply don't care...... they want everything closed to OHV. They'll concede to "administrative open" to miners, ranchers and agency monitoring. That's all. What do we do if they do get this passed? It looks to the agencies that WE don't care. OHV people simply don't show.......... they don't get involved. The dozen, maybe 2, that do find time to show to the meetings or workshops or committee meetings simply is not enough. We need NUMBERS. If there would have been 50 RED shirts involved in these route inventory workshops the greenies would have to back down............. 3 OHV persons have to fight way too hard to win the smallest piece.

I'll keep fighting.......... I guess it's just in my nature but after sitting in 20 hours of BS to hear someone say "they can't do this" is very hard to accept. They WILL, they CAN, and they ARE taking.

We need NUMBERS involved, and we NEED ORBA sitting at these tables with us (this takes Az businesses to be members).

Sorry for ragging........... it's definitely not at "anyone".......... just venting frustration today.

[Y2K-XJ]

Ummmm uhhhhh...! I can get signs made for FREE!!!!!!!! all we have to do is install them Heck I 'll do that myself!
I like the signs and think that every trail should have them! PERIOD... :D

lets do this!

[Sandee McCullen]

Ummmm uhhhhh...! I can get signs made for FREE!!!!!!!! all we have to do is install them Heck I 'll do that myself!
I like the signs and think that every trail should have them! PERIOD... :D

lets do this!

"WE" cannot just go out helter skelter and put up signs whenever, wherever we please. I've told you the BLM is looking at similar signs to fit into the new RMP that will require informative signs at each 4.5 ++ trailhead.

If you can get signs for free we could seriously use a sign at the top of Lower Terminator....... We have posted a sign at Annihilator that has kept EVERYONE off the by-pass that was made. Many that seemingly "abuse" our trails simply don't know the rules or history. The area between Lower and Upper Terminator is a Riparian area as well as prime habitat for desert tortoise. Up until a couple of years ago there was no sign of any motorized vehicle going up the wash between the two................ there has been recently. BLM has FINALLY allowed us to post a sign. If OHV continue through this riparian area we will lose this entire trail since the ENTIRE trail shows on "resource maps" to be "Riparian" and most biologists/hydrologists feel there should be NO MOTORIZED IN ANY RIPARIAN AREAS. They can and will push this if they continue to see abuse............ I believe we can stop this trespass by simply letting our fellow OHV'ers know the status of the area.


NO MOTORIZED ACCESS BEYOND THIS POINT
Sensitive Resources
Riparian Area & Desert Tortoise Habitat

PLEASE RESPECT OUR LANDS & RESOURCES
Abuse will close our trails.
Thank You.


If you can help it would be truly appreciated!!!

[roger]

I volunteer to help install the sign at the end of Lower Terminator.

What about that road that crosses the wash at the end of Lower Terminator? Should we try to close it? That road doesn't go anywhere except into the riparian area where it dead ends. Maybe we could install the sign in a position that makes the road appear to be closed as well as the wash? Or maybe we could winch some bolders into place to block the road on the east side of the wash? What's your opinion Sandee?

-Roger

[Woody]

I volunteer to help install the sign at the end of Lower Terminator.

What about that road that crosses the wash at the end of Lower Terminator? Should we try to close it? That road doesn't go anywhere except into the riparian area where it dead ends. Maybe we could install the sign in a position that makes the road appear to be closed as well as the wash? Or maybe we could winch some bolders into place to block the road on the east side of the wash? What's your opinion Sandee?

-Roger

That road doesn't dead end. It goes through the riparian area and exits the wash up the side of the embankment, onto the main road.

We should see about blocking that off at the main road also.

I'd also like to volunteer to help with sign installation and anything else to keep people from going through there. I'm sure I could get some of the Rockrats to help also.

Woody

[roger]

That road doesn't dead end. It goes through the riparian area and exits the wash up the side of the embankment, onto the main road.

We should see about blocking that off at the main road also.


Shiat! That road didn't use to go through that far - just back down into the wash. In this case, we should definitely block it off.

Thanks for the update, Rick.

-Roger

[Sandee McCullen]

I volunteer to help install the sign at the end of Lower Terminator.

What about that road that crosses the wash at the end of Lower Terminator? Should we try to close it? That road doesn't go anywhere except into the riparian area where it dead ends. Maybe we could install the sign in a position that makes the road appear to be closed as well as the wash? Or maybe we could winch some bolders into place to block the road on the east side of the wash? What's your opinion Sandee?

-Roger

Hi Roger........... Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. Couldn't log in for a couple of days............. guess even the computer doesn't want to know who I am!!
The road that crosses the wash at the top of Lower Terminator isn't up for closure as far as I know. It goes to something specific....... "Historical" I believe. We simply need to "remind" OHV to not traverse through the riparian portion of this trail. We've won this battle in that the ENTIRE wash was originally considered "riparian" and "tortoise habitat" and BLM wanted to close the entire wash to us. Following numerous field trips and even more meetings "fight for our cause/rights", BLM has backed off and agreed only the center section was true riparian and needs protection. Up until a couple of years ago 4x4's weren't going through.............. they are now. I believe this is only because of a lack of "knowledge" of the history of the issues of our trails vs the resources.

All we need to do right now is place a "no entrance" sign just past the slab of rocks at the top of Lower Terminator. IF BLM decides to close this crossing road in the new RMP they're working on we may be asked to place rocks etc................. ???? Not an answer as far as I'm concerned. Making a barracade of rocks simply makes for another "challenge"........... can we place big enough boulders to stop 4x4.??

If we can get a sign made I'll get a group together to put it up. The one at the by-pass of Annihilator is now concreted in. I'll have to decide whether this needs "concrete" or simply sign posts in the ground.??

[Sandee McCullen]

I volunteer to help install the sign at the end of Lower Terminator.

What about that road that crosses the wash at the end of Lower Terminator? Should we try to close it? That road doesn't go anywhere except into the riparian area where it dead ends. Maybe we could install the sign in a position that makes the road appear to be closed as well as the wash? Or maybe we could winch some bolders into place to block the road on the east side of the wash? What's your opinion Sandee?

-Roger

Hi Roger,
Sorry to take so long to respond............ couldn't log in for a couple of days. Even the computer doesn't like me now and then!!

In response to your inquiry about "closing the road that crosses the wash"..... No, we cannot close an existing route/trail. All we're doing above Lower Terminator is making note this is not an existing trail & it is a protected area. We should probably put an arrow and maybe some wording directing them to the left up the hill to the main road in lieu of following to the right which will bring them back into protected area off an existing trail.

BLM is aware of this trail that crosses the wash............ I believe Jack Ragsdale said something about a "historical" site.??? I don't believe it's on the Closure list for the new RMP.

[yjman]

How about working to make all new owners of OHV's have to go through a class to teach the do's and don’ts of off roading? Last year while camping near Flagstaff I stopped two quad riders who were tearing up a meadow racing and doing donuts. They had no clue that they should not be doing that. I have been lucky to learn from members of the club. What would need to be done to make a class mandatory before you could off-road?

[ROCKFAN]

How about working to make all new owners of OHV's have to go through a class to teach the do's and don’ts of off roading? Last year while camping near Flagstaff I stopped two quad riders who were tearing up a meadow racing and doing donuts. They had no clue that they should not be doing that. I have been lucky to learn from members of the club. What would need to be done to make a class mandatory before you could off-road?

Maybe a special endorsement on the drivers license (similar to a motorcycle endorsement) that allows one to venture onto "primitive roads"? Subject to fines if not endorsed - enforcement would be spotty (similar to STL enforcement - never been stopped to have my permit checked yet, but I always have one), but the threat of fines would be there.

[Sandee McCullen]

Maybe a special endorsement on the drivers license (similar to a motorcycle endorsement) that allows one to venture onto "primitive roads"? Subject to fines if not endorsed - enforcement would be spotty (similar to STL enforcement - never been stopped to have my permit checked yet, but I always have one), but the threat of fines would be there.

That would be wonderful but what are the odds of this happening? Most new quads and bikes purchased come with a free gift certificate to attend a safety riding class.......... less then 2% use them.

We're trying to put this into the OHV Copper Sticker program but IF it happens it will be several years out.......

It is within feasibility........... some day. Numerous "PARKS" across the country require proof of a safety driving/riding class.............

[ROCKFAN]

Maybe we could record a 101 class at the next jamboree (or something like that), add some production effort to it, maybe make it more OHV-generic (to add quads and bikes) and get it burned to DVD - then distribute copies of the DVD to the sellers of new/used OHV rides (jeeps/quads/bikes/(gasp)hummers). When you buy an offroad vehicle, you get a copy of the DVD, which contains basics like "Stay on the !@#$! trail, you moron!", "Pack it in - pack it out" and "Put that rock back where you found it!"

Dunno - trying to think a little outside the box here...

[Hackle]

Found this thread on Pirate about several events and even OHV parks having trouble getting insurance. Looks like the requirements Sandee spoke about to keep our insurance for events may hit others soon if not already.
JimF.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=273324