Definition of "Full Cage" for Jamboree??

[ROCKFAN]

Been reading the forth and back in the "required equipment" threads, but still can't seem to divine the definition of "full cage" for the upcoming Jamboree (or possible future trail restrictions)...

Assuming other equipment requirements (tire size, lockers, winch) are met...

If I show up at Jamboree tech inspection in a TJ, rag top with no cage modifications, what will I be allowed to run? Up to 3.5? 4.0? 3.0? :p

Same TJ, with a TBT sport cage? :rolleyes:

Same TJ, with a Poison Spyder Trail Cage? :cool:

Or do I have to go out and get a custom fabbed, welded in 6 point cage to run Upper/Lower Terminator or Raw Deal? :eek:

[Huck]

All kidding aside, I would have the same question/s. Also, where does driver education or lack there of play into the requirements.
For example: If you want to ski or snowboard at Colorado's most extreme play area-its in Silverton, CO- you need to have the required equiptment. These items include and avalanche beacon, shovel, and transponder (there may be more nowadays). The equiptment is a must, but then you need to pass a written test, too. Without meeting all req's, you aren't going on the mountain. The only way to go without passing the test, is to hire a guide.
That's how that play area is managing their risk.
FYI,
Huck

[ROCKFAN]

I hope it didn't look like I was kidding around - I seriously would like to know what grade of cage I need to meet both the Jamboree requirements and the (potential) state (BLM/State Trust/NFS/whatever) requirements for trails. I have been planning some sort of cage upgrade for my Rubi for a while now, and have been playing the old price vs. performance vs. form factor game. I don't want to throw money away on a modification that won't let me re-run trails I enjoy regularly.

I know there has been discussion of revisiting trail ratings - if regulations are added for required equipment, the rating system may need a lot of revision. IMAO, there is more of a rollover risk on FR42 (currently rated 3.0+) than there is on Upper Ajax (currently rated 4.5), but FR42 can be run with a mildly lifted rig with open carriers. Don't think I'd want to try 31s and open diffs on Upper Ajax :eek:

[Huck]

I didn't mean to make it out like you were kidding around. You bring up many of things, I've been keeping quite about. Currently, I think there is a lot of chatter going around regarding this issue and that's what we need. I just haven't seen the full scope of where this legislation/regulation issue will end up.
I have questions about other rigs I've seen, as well as, my own. I mean does Flexy Joe need a cage with his rig to run terminator? With his set up he walks over most anything our local 4.5's throw at him and with no cage. My Rubi is pretty armoured up and has some lift these days. I hope to have it stretched and coil-overed one day soon. A full cage and cradle has been in the plans for when I retire the Rubi from its DD role. The first local trail I took the Rubi on, was Lower into Upper Raw Deal. It was a night run and I had a blast with all involved. Am I not going to be allowed on it now (I know Upper has been closed for a while) since I have no cage. Do I need to try every 4.5+ I can prior to the new regs, since I won't have a cage installed this year?
I'm essentially going to to sit here and read as much as is posted regarding this issue and then try to formulate or offer some suggestions. I don't like being critical of new ideas or an issue without being able to offer up an alternative. So as not to show my ignorance of all the facts, I'll reel this post in.
Good luck in developing a good way to get over this rock in the path of our sport.
Huck

[Hackle]

OK I will offer as much info as I can but remember none of this is set in stone yet.
1) With a Sport cage you can run a 4.0 the 4.5 is still in question and the 4.5++ is out of the question.
2) I have not recieved an answer on a full hardtop
3) I bought and installed a sport cage a few years ago and I was happy with it and it is an improvement over stock, But I just recently had a cage installed and unless you want the monkey bars that some have installed you can get a cage built for not that much more money then the sport cage. If you plan on upgrading later from the sport cage I think you will find that a built cage is a better investment. Talk to some of the local fab shops to get a price. Every Jeep is different so I am not going to give out prices. Hunter built mine and I wish I had known the difference in price and safety when I did the sport bar.

Last comment. For an exterme sport we have very few requirements and even less that are enforced. Like the sking example Huck gave we have nothing formal like that. Considering all the safety for yourself and your family a cage can supply the money spent is well worth it in my view. Look into a built cage at a couple places, I think you will be surprised.
Jim F.

[Devil Man]

REQUIRED EQUIPMENT http://www.asa4wdc.org/

NO EXCEPTIONS!



Working C.B.

Roll Bar or Hard Top (2.0 – 3.0)

Roll Bar WITH Hard Top (4.0) **

Full Cage (4.0 - 4.5++)

Tow Strap

Seat Belts for all passengers

A solid battery hold down (no elastic straps)
Recommend:

First Aide Kits

Cleaning materials.. oil absorbent products

Spare Tire

Tools

Spare parts as required per trail difficulty

** Special provisions for 4.0 trails. Future will require full cage for 4.0 and above.




Arizona is moving into a different type of trail rating. Although we will still use the “1-5” scale each rating will specify equipment required or recommended along with a basic description of the difficulty of the trail itself.



Due to so many novice OHV recreationists trying trails that are above the qualifications of their vehicle or above their experience the management agencies are working with ways to inform the public of the difference between a trail suitable for a stock vehicle or novice driver and a technical trail that requires specific equipment and skill. Your cooperation and understanding in working with us on this is appreciated.



Signs similar to the charts below will be posted at the trailheads of 4.0 – 5.0 trails.






RULES OF THE ROAD



REMEMBER: Your Trip Leader is BOSS.

They will do everything possible to make this trip enjoyable for everyone but they need your cooperation and help. We are not trying to dominate anyone. We are simply trying to insure our continued use of these lands in working with our Land Use Agencies.



1. NO ALCOHOL ALLOWED ON THE TRAIL. Save it for around the campfire.



2. NO LITTERING – “Pack it in… Pack it out !” LEAVE NO TRACE



3. Don’t cut trails, follow the vehicle in front of you unless your Trip Leader indicates a “play area’ or by-pass.



4. When making a turn on to another trail or road, WAIT FOR THE VEHICLE BEHIND YOU. DO NOT CONTINUE ON UNTIL HE SEES YOUR TURN.



5. If you drip any fluids from your vehicle PLEASE CLEAN IT UP BEFORE YOU PROCEED. (Carry a small “baggie” of PeatSorb, oil absorbent pads or biodegradable cleaner)



6. If you need to “stack’ a rock or two to get through a tough spot..... do so, but PLEASE! UNSTACK BEFORE CONTINUING. This practice gives your fellow 4-wheeler behind you the same challenge to try WITHOUT rocks or ramps.



7. When driving up or down steep grades leave enough distance between vehicles to give your fellow 4-wheeler room to maneuver and to prevent collisions.



8. If you leave the caravan at any point, make sure you check out with the Trip Leader



9. PETS MUST BE ON A LEASH AT ALL. TIMES - Camp & Trail



10. NO VANDALISM. Please do not take Items from our mines and/or ghost towns.



11. Firearms must be left in a safe place in your vehicle unless otherwise specified by your Trip Leader.



12. Leave the living desert as you find it. No digging or destroying



13. Parents are reminded to keep watch of their children. There are many mineshafts and/or high ledges & rocks as well as snakes and insects.

[rolled1]

couldn't a sport cage from TBT for instance, be welded to the roll bar and to the frame and pass the requirements as we know them?

[ROCKFAN]

Jim -
Thanks for that clarification. That is certainly part of the answer I was looking for - the break between "sport cage" and "roll cage" in the trail ratings. I'm still wondering if there exists a clear definition of what makes a "roll cage" as opposed to a "sport cage". If it exists, then it probably should be part of the ASA website and Jamboree information.

I do wonder what will happen to the XJs - not many of them have full roll cages...

[Linda]

I am just guessing here. Let me know if I'm right. I think the author was just a little bit careless with the wording.

Roll Bar or Hard Top (2.0 – 3.0) Any vehicle should pass this requirement except for unmodified older 4x4s that did not come with a roll bar OR hard top. Would an early Ram Charger w/removable hard top or IH Scout/Traveller with a removable hard top but no roll bar would meet this requirement? It says nothing about the hard top being permanently attached.

Roll Bar WITH Hard Top (4.0) **
A Ram Charger or IH Scout/Traveller with the removable top installed and a roll bar would meet these requirements. Why would a vehicle with a permanently attached roof require a roll bar too?

Full Cage (4.0 - 4.5++)
Okay. I understand this one. A slow roll on a relatively flat spot is much less dangerous than rolling down a waterfall or over a cliff edge. I'd want the extra protection too.

[weasel_ugs]

I guess us XJ people will be forking out some major dough for a cage then.The cheapest I have found is $1200.Wonder what a cage for my MJ will cost?With as little roof as the MJ's have I was planing on a cage anyways. Don

[Greg Lochner]

What about 3.5 trails?

[KnetAZ]

Perhaps I am missing something here. Why is a "sport cage" like what Troy or Or-Fab sells not considered a "roll cage". Is there evidence that these fail at too high a rate, or is this just folks guessing what would happen in a roll over? If there is some hard evidence, I would like to see it, cuz I run one of those cages.

It's my understanding that folks (like Troy) run these "sport cages" in events like CalRocks, where rollovers are commonplace. If they can hold up to that, why are they insufficient for Jamboree?

Also, when we talk "roll cage", are we talking something that just runs to the floor, or something that is tied into the frame?

Are there performance standards that need to be meet? If not, what is the criteria for including one design and excluding another?

[Linda]

I think DC-Jeep calls it a sport bar too. Using the term roll bar, roll cage, or crash bar would imply that the tubing used to the increase the vehicle's rigidity and support the convertible top will also protect the passengers in a crash or rollover situation.

I wonder if it is still early enough that the ASA4WDC can revise this section of the rules so it doesn't turn into a really big headache later on.

[desertfabmotors]

Perhaps I am missing something here. Why is a "sport cage" like what Troy or Or-Fab sells not considered a "roll cage". Is there evidence that these fail at too high a rate, or is this just folks guessing what would happen in a roll over? If there is some hard evidence, I would like to see it, cuz I run one of those cages.

It's my understanding that folks (like Troy) run these "sport cages" in events like CalRocks, where rollovers are commonplace. If they can hold up to that, why are they insufficient for Jamboree?

Also, when we talk "roll cage", are we talking something that just runs to the floor, or something that is tied into the frame?

Are there performance standards that need to be meet? If not, what is the criteria for including one design and excluding another?



The sport cages are not legal for competition, Troy ran his Jeep at a regional event but his is not just bolted to the firewall.

[jeepin_al]

It already seems to be quite a headache. I was going to try to make this event but the whole sportcage/rollcage thing has made me decide to just go to one of the other many wonderful places in this state and just enjoy some carefree, untroubled, un-bothered wheeling without a sport or roll cage.

[KnetAZ]

The sport cages are not legal for competition, Troy ran his Jeep at a regional event but his is not just bolted to the firewall.


So there IS a way to tie these sport cages in to make them a compliant roll cage? What else needs to be done?

[TBT SK]

The sport cages are not legal for competition, Troy ran his Jeep at a regional event but his is not just bolted to the firewall.

Troy uses a factory rear bar supplemented with our retail parts. He runs the same bolt in kit up front that we sell to our dealer network. He has the 7005 Sport Bar kit, two 7015 Spreader bars, and the 7025 Dash bar. All bolt in. In the rear he has our 7036 Rear spreaders with the 7035 Rear add on bar. The rear components all weld in for lack of an easy way to bolt them in.

This is the same configuration that he has run in the CalRocs events.

Scott

[desertfabmotors]

So there IS a way to tie these sport cages in to make them a compliant roll cage? What else needs to be done?


I believe TBT has a add on kit that ties it to the floor. I think this is what Troy has on his TJ. :)
I am not sure what the defintion is for cages.

[desertfabmotors]

Troy uses a factory rear bar supplemented with our retail parts. He runs the same bolt in kit up front that we sell to our dealer network. He has the 7005 Sport Bar kit, two 7015 Spreader bars, and the 7025 Dash bar. All bolt in. In the rear he has our 7036 Rear spreaders with the 7035 Rear add on bar. The rear components all weld in for lack of an easy way to bolt them in.

This is the same configuration that he has run in the CalRocs events.

Scott

Here are rules for cages at the competitions: :D

Roll bars/Cages
CalROCS considers the cage as the safety bars surrounding the driver. Cages must be designed to protect the occupant in the event of a rollover.
The following are rollbar/cage guidelines for competition:
· Six (6) point mounting cages covering the driver are required.
· OEM bars are approved for a portion of the rollcage.
· Handles are required on the interior portion of the roll-cage or vehicle.
· Round steel tubing (D.O.M Preferred) 1.5” O.D with 0.120” wall is compulsory for the basic roll cage. Aluminum and/or soft metals are not permitted. Roll bar construction must be welded. A CalROCS official must approve roll cages made of other material or in other wall thickness/diameters.
· Connection positions of the roll cage must tie in to the frame of the vehicle; Body mounts are considered a tie in point. · The front-most position must be no farther toward the rear of the vehicle than fifteen (15) inches behind the throttle and brake pedals.
· The Cage must have a space no wider than 24” above the drivers head, and at least 1 spreader bar between the front main bar and rear main bar are required unless the cage top is 24” wide or less.
· Gussets must be welded in the four corners of the “halo”. Gussets may be tubing or plate steel.
· A minimum of.040 magnetic expanded or flat sheet metal, or 1/8” aluminum, must cover the area immediately over the driver seat and be welded or bolted to the roll cage. Steel tubing must surround the roof panel.
· CalROCS recommends a spreader bar to be mounted under the dash area to connect the right and left “A” pillars.
· If doors are not ran, a bar running from the “B” pillar, at approximately shoulder height, to the “A” pillar, at approximately shin height, must be ran. This can be a bolt in piece.
· A “periscope bar” (a bar sticking straight up from the roll cage) is not allowed.

[TBT SK]

No, we do not have a floor tie in kit. Troy does not run one.

But what CalRocs requires and what is required at the Jamboree of the normal guy having fun on the weekend is 2 different things. Troy is completely confident in our kits. We have many many customers that have called us after highway and offroad rolls to tell us their stories. I invite anyone to come over to our shop and speak with us.

Scott

[Hackle]

I ran a sport bar for a long time. As far as a what a roll bar is or is not, do you really think that the BLM has anyone capable of a tech inspection? We will be the police for ourselves like we always have been. All this is pushing is to add some money to add safety equipment as you add lift, tires, and lockers to your vehicle. The sport bar add ons are an improvement over stock and will get you to a 4.0. If you plan to keep on building your Jeep as 90% do. Think for the future!

The Agencies are not willing to at this point to let a nonremoveable hard top go beyond 3.5. Sandee it trying to get them to make this a public comment (if she gets it a calm attitude will get you further then going off on them). The point is that we all need to avoid the law suits that our society seems prone to. The problem with the Full hard tops is anyone can buy a full hardtop vehicle put a lift and big tires on (look at all the huge lifted trucks you see on the street). With out the rollbar requirement they would meet the requirements for every trail. If one of these moma's boys got hurt on Lower Terminator and his parents decided to sue as he had a hard top, 35" tires and a locker. Only we lose he can still go cruise the mall. JMHO
Jim F.

[1BLKJP]

I believe someone posted this already, but if NTSB rollover requirements are met for a vehicle with a non removeable hardtop then why can't the same go for the agencies that we are working with? It would seem that if it is safe to roll at highway speeds then it would be safe to roll at our speeds.

[Hackle]

Jack did you read my post? Maybe we were typing at the same time.
I am not trying to be a smart a## but I thought I explained that point pretty well. If I did not let me know what I can add to make the point and I will do it.
Jim F.

[1BLKJP]

Yeah Jim, I think we were typing at the same time. I didn't see your post before that. I do agree with you on the fact that anyone with a truck or some sort of hard top vehicle could be prone to danger.

[richard]

what about a toyota with a cage behind the cab with a hard top it is a 4x4 jamboree not a jeep jamboree

[Hackle]

Cage behind the cab = Roll bar
Jim F.

[richard]

The Agencies are not willing to at this point to let a nonremoveable hard top go beyond 3.5. Sandee it trying to get them to make this a public comment (if she gets it a calm attitude will get you further then going off on them). The point is that we all need to avoid the law suits that our society seems prone to. The problem with the Full hard tops is anyone can buy a full hardtop vehicle put a lift and big tires on (look at all the huge lifted trucks you see on the street). With out the rollbar requirement they would meet the requirements for every trail. If one of these moma's boys got hurt on Lower Terminator and his parents decided to sue as he had a hard top, 35" tires and a locker. Only we lose he can still go cruise the mall. JMHO
Jim F.[/QUOTE]

so I could not run a 4.0

[Hackle]

No per the Jombo web site, this year a hard top with a roll bar can run a 4.0.
Jim F.

[richard]

thanks for clearing that up for me :)

[Hackle]

Richard just to set the things straight. I do not care what you drive and I do understand that many avid rockcrawlers do not drive Jeeps (or what used to be a Jeep:). But as rockcrawlers we should be able to see that the diffence between us and a poser (as mentioned above) is we can see the use of the money spent on a cage. No mall cruiser is going to spend money on a roll cage when he could buy some cool spinner wheels:) or a new amp for great tunes.
Jim F.

[richard]

ok thanks a just didn't understand

[Huck]

I know what type of cage and cradle I want to put in the Rubi. I will have it built and installed, but not for about a year. (unless I strike it rich or we have a Huck's cage donation program)
Until then, I want to make sure I have a correct understanding of what is happening and where we are now.
At first, when I read Sandee's post, I thought this was a 'proposed plan' and that there would be some fine tuning and tweaking. I also thought that there would be some time lapse prior to implementation.
It appears, that I assumed wrong. Are these restritctions in place now? If not, when is the plan for implementation?
Also, just to show my 'newbieness', do you consider my fiberglass TJ roof, a removable hardtop? In this line of thought, I'm assuming that I have a removable hardtop and a factory set of bars, which I thought would protect me should I flop not flip. If I was to go to this event, I would be allowed on 3.5's but not 4.0's. Is this correct?
Yet, the first run I did was a 4.0 in my rig, just to get used to the way it articulated and crawled. I had no issues with this 4.0 and I considered it pretty docile for my rig.
This gets me back to a thought I had on trail ratings. Isn't it the line you run that truly makes the trail? Isn't it in the foresight of the driver and follow thru on that idea by the spotter that makes or breaks a rig and its attempt. I've been on enough runs with folks that I know we all see obstacles differently. Part of this is due to rig capability and the other part, driver vision and knowledge. I carefully pick my lines and see what many folks miss as an opportunity to make an obstacle. I also have the restraint to not run everything I see people run. I don't have 9"s of lift or 37's, so I'm content picking an easier line.
There will be people who overextend themselves in all sports/activities. How many people each Summer are flown off of our local mountains 'cause they forgot our bodies need water? Will they start to regulate water consumption on mountian park trails? (jk)
I will admit that we are a sue happy society. I could be sold on some type of a permit system that covers insurance or a super fund for the losers who sue. I just have trouble imagining an inclusive, all incompassing policy to regulate our local trails. Its a great idea in a concept form, but its looking like we can't even define what a proper cage is at this point. So, how can we grade a trail, regulate our trails, and enforce the regulations? We are biting off a big bunch of legaleze here and are just pushing forward the idea of big gov't in a conservative state. These are public lands that my hunting and tax dollars support. I do wish that more was publicized about this issue, so that we could find out just what the unspoken majority is thinking.
Not everyone has a rock buggy and not everyone will be tackling rock buggy trails. I admit some loser will try, regardless of what we do. Just look what prohibiton did and the war on drugs has done. (nothing, but waste a bunch of money) What will this really accomplish for our group? Currently it appears to me like this is causing confusion and some animosity.
I certainly do not mean to flame or inflame anyone or anything surrounding this issue. I just am looking for some clarity and peace of mind for the next time I go wheelin :D
I'm looking for a point of solidarity among us. I know we have to do something, but is this the best for our group and our sport? I'm a newer member compared to some on this board and am used to wheelin solo or in small groups over the years. I believe in self reliance and responsibility when in the woods or in any daily task. Never has anyone told me what the capabilities of my equipment are or aren't. I don't enter my rig in competions, just the National Forest and BLM land. I f I entered a rock crawlin competition then regulate me, but not in my own back yard, please.
Hmmm, I hope I didn't soapbox things here, but I'm starting to get a little confused about what is really happening out there and how its effecting some of the people I call friends.
Huck-no I'm not a republican :D :D :D
Huck

[skruize]

Cage behind the cab = Roll bar
Jim F.

Hmm, Rollbar yes, but full cage?

Scott

[Hackle]

First off if you can remove a top it is considered removable:)
Second no the regulations do not start ASAP and are not set in stone. The Jambo requirements may be set as the ASA4WDC needs to make an insurance company happy. They BLM (regs) are not even proposed for comment yet. Sandee is trying to set up a public comment on this and this alone. Even if they do not have a meeting we have standing to comment on this and any other discisions will be open for us to comment on. We have standing because we went to earlier meetings and none of this came up.
I also believe that the governement that governs the least is the best. Until we have more people vote in people that think the same way we will have to fight government trying to protect us from ourselves.
I hope this helps. Jim F.

[Hackle]

Hmm, Rollbar yes, but full cage?

Scott

Scott maybe you should read the entire post to see that "Cage Behind the Cab" was his comment. What part of "= rollbar" did you not understand???
Jim F.

[FlexyXJ]

Scott maybe you should read the entire post to see that "Cage Behind the Cab" was his comment. What part of "= rollbar" did you not understand???
Jim F.


I think he missed the part about the 'cage being screwed together with self tapping screws. However, If troy ran CalRocs with the cage thats put together with self tapping screws, then the issue of safety is not really whats going on here....is it??? :rolleyes: I guess we could all do what the "ricers" do and build a "cage" out of plastic PVC and paint it black. Good to go. :eek:


Joe

[skruize]

I think he missed the part about the 'cage being screwed together with self tapping screws. However, If troy ran CalRocs with the cage thats put together with self tapping screws, then the issue of safety is not really whats going on here....is it??? :rolleyes: I guess we could all do what the "ricers" do and build a "cage" out of plastic PVC and paint it black. Good to go. :eek:


Joe



Ok thats constructive.

[Woody]

I know what type of cage and cradle I want to put in the Rubi. I will have it built and installed, but not for about a year. (unless I strike it rich or we have a Huck's cage donation program)
Until then, I want to make sure I have a correct understanding of what is happening and where we are now.
At first, when I read Sandee's post, I thought this was a 'proposed plan' and that there would be some fine tuning and tweaking. I also thought that there would be some time lapse prior to implementation.
It appears, that I assumed wrong. Are these restritctions in place now? If not, when is the plan for implementation?
Also, just to show my 'newbieness', do you consider my fiberglass TJ roof, a removable hardtop? In this line of thought, I'm assuming that I have a removable hardtop and a factory set of bars, which I thought would protect me should I flop not flip. If I was to go to this event, I would be allowed on 3.5's but not 4.0's. Is this correct?
Yet, the first run I did was a 4.0 in my rig, just to get used to the way it articulated and crawled. I had no issues with this 4.0 and I considered it pretty docile for my rig.
This gets me back to a thought I had on trail ratings. Isn't it the line you run that truly makes the trail? Isn't it in the foresight of the driver and follow thru on that idea by the spotter that makes or breaks a rig and its attempt. I've been on enough runs with folks that I know we all see obstacles differently. Part of this is due to rig capability and the other part, driver vision and knowledge. I carefully pick my lines and see what many folks miss as an opportunity to make an obstacle. I also have the restraint to not run everything I see people run. I don't have 9"s of lift or 37's, so I'm content picking an easier line.
There will be people who overextend themselves in all sports/activities. How many people each Summer are flown off of our local mountains 'cause they forgot our bodies need water? Will they start to regulate water consumption on mountian park trails? (jk)
I will admit that we are a sue happy society. I could be sold on some type of a permit system that covers insurance or a super fund for the losers who sue. I just have trouble imagining an inclusive, all incompassing policy to regulate our local trails. Its a great idea in a concept form, but its looking like we can't even define what a proper cage is at this point. So, how can we grade a trail, regulate our trails, and enforce the regulations? We are biting off a big bunch of legaleze here and are just pushing forward the idea of big gov't in a conservative state. These are public lands that my hunting and tax dollars support. I do wish that more was publicized about this issue, so that we could find out just what the unspoken majority is thinking.
Not everyone has a rock buggy and not everyone will be tackling rock buggy trails. I admit some loser will try, regardless of what we do. Just look what prohibiton did and the war on drugs has done. (nothing, but waste a bunch of money) What will this really accomplish for our group? Currently it appears to me like this is causing confusion and some animosity.
I certainly do not mean to flame or inflame anyone or anything surrounding this issue. I just am looking for some clarity and peace of mind for the next time I go wheelin :D
I'm looking for a point of solidarity among us. I know we have to do something, but is this the best for our group and our sport? I'm a newer member compared to some on this board and am used to wheelin solo or in small groups over the years. I believe in self reliance and responsibility when in the woods or in any daily task. Never has anyone told me what the capabilities of my equipment are or aren't. I don't enter my rig in competions, just the National Forest and BLM land. If I entered a rock crawlin competition then regulate me, but not in my own back yard, please.
Hmmm, I hope I didn't soapbox things here, but I'm starting to get a little confused about what is really happening out there and how its effecting some of the people I call friends.
Huck-no I'm not a republican :D :D :D
Huck

Excellent comments Huck! Your thoughts are right on regarding this issue. You kinda stole my thunder, but I'm glad you did, as I couldn't have said it better myself.

Wouldn't we all be better off if the land agencies spent their time and energy (and our tax dollars), not on regulating something they have no way of enforcing, but on educating the public on the proper way to use an OHV?

Rick

[Woody]

what about a toyota with a cage behind the cab with a hard top it is a 4x4 jamboree not a jeep jamboree

If its a cage behind the cab, then it's in the bed of the truck, right?

I call that a light bar.

Rick

[skruize]

I know what type of cage and cradle I want to put in the Rubi. I will have it built and installed, but not for about a year. (unless I strike it rich or we have a Huck's cage donation program)
Until then, I want to make sure I have a correct understanding of what is happening and where we are now.
At first, when I read Sandee's post, I thought this was a 'proposed plan' and that there would be some fine tuning and tweaking. I also thought that there would be some time lapse prior to implementation.
It appears, that I assumed wrong. Are these restritctions in place now? If not, when is the plan for implementation?
Also, just to show my 'newbieness', do you consider my fiberglass TJ roof, a removable hardtop? In this line of thought, I'm assuming that I have a removable hardtop and a factory set of bars, which I thought would protect me should I flop not flip. If I was to go to this event, I would be allowed on 3.5's but not 4.0's. Is this correct?
Yet, the first run I did was a 4.0 in my rig, just to get used to the way it articulated and crawled. I had no issues with this 4.0 and I considered it pretty docile for my rig.
This gets me back to a thought I had on trail ratings. Isn't it the line you run that truly makes the trail? Isn't it in the foresight of the driver and follow thru on that idea by the spotter that makes or breaks a rig and its attempt. I've been on enough runs with folks that I know we all see obstacles differently. Part of this is due to rig capability and the other part, driver vision and knowledge. I carefully pick my lines and see what many folks miss as an opportunity to make an obstacle. I also have the restraint to not run everything I see people run. I don't have 9"s of lift or 37's, so I'm content picking an easier line.
There will be people who overextend themselves in all sports/activities. How many people each Summer are flown off of our local mountains 'cause they forgot our bodies need water? Will they start to regulate water consumption on mountian park trails? (jk)
I will admit that we are a sue happy society. I could be sold on some type of a permit system that covers insurance or a super fund for the losers who sue. I just have trouble imagining an inclusive, all incompassing policy to regulate our local trails. Its a great idea in a concept form, but its looking like we can't even define what a proper cage is at this point. So, how can we grade a trail, regulate our trails, and enforce the regulations? We are biting off a big bunch of legaleze here and are just pushing forward the idea of big gov't in a conservative state. These are public lands that my hunting and tax dollars support. I do wish that more was publicized about this issue, so that we could find out just what the unspoken majority is thinking.
Not everyone has a rock buggy and not everyone will be tackling rock buggy trails. I admit some loser will try, regardless of what we do. Just look what prohibiton did and the war on drugs has done. (nothing, but waste a bunch of money) What will this really accomplish for our group? Currently it appears to me like this is causing confusion and some animosity.
I certainly do not mean to flame or inflame anyone or anything surrounding this issue. I just am looking for some clarity and peace of mind for the next time I go wheelin :D
I'm looking for a point of solidarity among us. I know we have to do something, but is this the best for our group and our sport? I'm a newer member compared to some on this board and am used to wheelin solo or in small groups over the years. I believe in self reliance and responsibility when in the woods or in any daily task. Never has anyone told me what the capabilities of my equipment are or aren't. I don't enter my rig in competions, just the National Forest and BLM land. I f I entered a rock crawlin competition then regulate me, but not in my own back yard, please.
Hmmm, I hope I didn't soapbox things here, but I'm starting to get a little confused about what is really happening out there and how its effecting some of the people I call friends.
Huck-no I'm not a republican :D :D :D
Huck

Wow Huck, nice going!

Scott

[FlexyXJ]

If its a cage behind the cab, then it's in the bed of the truck, right?

I call that a light bar.

Rick


See??? Everyone interpets evrything different from one another. Now lets throw ANOTHER wrench in here.....where does the EXO-CAGE fit in??? For the XJ's, ZJ's and KJ's???? Does that fit the bill for a legal cage??? Or is it a "sport-EXO"???


Joe

[Sandee McCullen]

First off if you can remove a top it is considered removable:)
Second no the regulations do not start ASAP and are not set in stone. The Jambo requirements may be set as the ASA4WDC needs to make an insurance company happy. They BLM (regs) are not even proposed for comment yet. Sandee is trying to set up a public comment on this and this alone. Even if they do not have a meeting we have standing to comment on this and any other discisions will be open for us to comment on. We have standing because we went to earlier meetings and none of this came up.
I also believe that the governement that governs the least is the best. Until we have more people vote in people that think the same way we will have to fight government trying to protect us from ourselves.
I hope this helps. Jim F.

This "permit" thing is simply a proposal BLM is looking at entering into the RMP's that are part of the route inventory/designations we've all been working on and following for the past couple of years. There are 5 management plans being worked on right now......... a sixth one starting soon. Their point at this time is to develop "CONSISTENT" plans for across the state. Should they decide to enter this "permit" requirement and "equipment requirement" into the management plan we have 60 days to comment AFTER the draft RMP comes out to the public. (several plans will be out by the end of summer........ a couple by the end of the year). The "equipment requirements" WILL be a part of the plans for extreme techinical trails. I can keep pounding on them about the requirements but we will have to compromise on something to balance the liability issues both the agencies and insurance are facing. Personally, I don't think the permit issue will even go into the management plan but if we don't defend our side NOW they can put anything in that helps protect them............ or at least things they THINK protect them.

For further explanation.............. a roll bar is a tube bar over the heads of driver and front passenger across the back of driver seat. The rule used to be a roll bar OR hard top. The agencies are now simply convinced (because of insurance survey's) that a hard top is not sufficient for extreme trails that hold a higher incident of roll overs....................... simple liability issue again. Thusly, a roll bar. Not a bad thing for any trail above bare stock.

A roll cage is simply a "cage" covering the interior or exterior of the vehicle. Over the heads, across the front and around the sides with protection over everyone within. A recreation cage does not need to be attached to the frame in numerous places as does a "competition cage". Nor are there exact tech plans and wall strength for tubeing or construction. Recreational use does not require helmets; harnesses; metal over driver head; fluid retainers; cage specs or connections to the frame. The agencies realize that recreational "rock crawling" is not as dangerous as competitive rock crawling but the liability is still the same................ if we have a vehicle capable of traversing the extreme trails our "safety" requirements need to improve in comparison. Most of you have watched the "requirements for competition" increase each year for the past 4 years............. all because the challenge kept increasing. Same goes for recreational use............... as the challenge increases, so does the equipment which means we also need to consider the safety of what we're doing.

Hard tops simply do not do the job many of us feel they do............... if you want to do extreme trails................. be "safe".

BLM WILL listen to us.................. beating up on them isn't going to help. They simply do not understand our "modifications" and what they can do but they do understand "liability" and "safety"................ Work with them, I think you'll be glad you did. They are trying very hard to understand OHV but we make it very hard for them sometimes.

Regarding Jamboree................. I will be lowering some of the requirements to match what we agree on with BLM but most are strictly from our insurance agent. The tire size requirements will be less and maybe the 4.0 roll bar/cage but most of the rest we're all going to have to live with because these requirements (at least on the 4.5 trails ++ will be required by the end of the year). They will be required for Jamboree............ they're almost done with the Jamboree EA and we're still "fighting" for 3 of the extreme trails so I doubt they'll bend on anything other than tires and maybe the 4.0 roll bar/cage issue.

[skruize]

This "permit" thing is simply a proposal BLM is looking at entering into the RMP's that are part of the route inventory/designations we've all been working on and following for the past couple of years. There are 5 management plans being worked on right now......... a sixth one starting soon. Their point at this time is to develop "CONSISTENT" plans for across the state. Should they decide to enter this "permit" requirement and "equipment requirement" into the management plan we have 60 days to comment AFTER the draft RMP comes out to the public. (several plans will be out by the end of summer........ a couple by the end of the year). The "equipment requirements" WILL be a part of the plans for extreme techinical trails. I can keep pounding on them about the requirements but we will have to compromise on something to balance the liability issues both the agencies and insurance are facing. Personally, I don't think the permit issue will even go into the management plan but if we don't defend our side NOW they can put anything in that helps protect them............ or at least things they THINK protect them.

For further explanation.............. a roll bar is a tube bar over the heads of driver and front passenger across the back of driver seat. The rule used to be a roll bar OR hard top. The agencies are now simply convinced (because of insurance survey's) that a hard top is not sufficient for extreme trails that hold a higher incident of roll overs....................... simple liability issue again. Thusly, a roll bar. Not a bad thing for any trail above bare stock.

A roll cage is simply a "cage" covering the interior or exterior of the vehicle. Over the heads, across the front and around the sides with protection over everyone within. A recreation cage does not need to be attached to the frame in numerous places as does a "competition cage". Nor are there exact tech plans and wall strength for tubeing or construction. Recreational use does not require helmets; harnesses; metal over driver head; fluid retainers; cage specs or connections to the frame. The agencies realize that recreational "rock crawling" is not as dangerous as competitive rock crawling but the liability is still the same................ if we have a vehicle capable of traversing the extreme trails our "safety" requirements need to improve in comparison. Most of you have watched the "requirements for competition" increase each year for the past 4 years............. all because the challenge kept increasing. Same goes for recreational use............... as the challenge increases, so does the equipment which means we also need to consider the safety of what we're doing.

Hard tops simply do not do the job many of us feel they do............... if you want to do extreme trails................. be "safe".

BLM WILL listen to us.................. beating up on them isn't going to help. They simply do not understand our "modifications" and what they can do but they do understand "liability" and "safety"................ Work with them, I think you'll be glad you did. They are trying very hard to understand OHV but we make it very hard for them sometimes.

Regarding Jamboree................. I will be lowering some of the requirements to match what we agree on with BLM but most are strictly from our insurance agent. The tire size requirements will be less and maybe the 4.0 roll bar/cage but most of the rest we're all going to have to live with because these requirements (at least on the 4.5 trails ++ will be required by the end of the year). They will be required for Jamboree............ they're almost done with the Jamboree EA and we're still "fighting" for 3 of the extreme trails so I doubt they'll bend on anything other than tires and maybe the 4.0 roll bar/cage issue.

Sandee,

Thanks for the clarification.

Scott K

[KnetAZ]

Sandee,

Thanks for the clarification.

Scott K


Yeah, thanx, that cleared a few things up in my mind.

[Huck]

Thanks for the clarification and the support.
Sometimes, I wonder where I'd be without this group/forum. I moved here in 92 and have been wheelin accross this state ever since. I would have no idea that any of these issues were going on under it all, if not for this forum and that folks in it. :D :eek: :D
Shoot, you'd probably just find me on some trail in the Coconino, rollin along the trail like nothing was happening. I hope others find out what's happening. It reminds me of when they started to charge us to use Oak Creek Canyon and the Sedona area. They planned it for a bit, but the general public was unaware.
Huck

[Diablo]

Perhaps I am missing something here. Why is a "sport cage" like what Troy or Or-Fab sells not considered a "roll cage". Is there evidence that these fail at too high a rate, or is this just folks guessing what would happen in a roll over? If there is some hard evidence, I would like to see it, cuz I run one of those cages.

It's my understanding that folks (like Troy) run these "sport cages" in events like CalRocks, where rollovers are commonplace. If they can hold up to that, why are they insufficient for Jamboree?


I'm sure everyone's seen the vid clip of Tracy rolling over backwards about 5 times in Utah. She was equipped with Troy's kit. She was perfectly safe afterwards and was able to continue with HER rig for another two days. Check out the clip on Troy's site if you haven't seen it.

Having said that, why would Troy's kit not be sufficient?

I think there are people out there taking this WAY too seriously...

- Kit

[flxy_tj]

I agree troys kit did ok but I still would have to say that there is no replacment for a cage that is welded and tied in to the frame........ That is why I'll keep on saving my money and get a bender and do it up. :D

[Marty]

I can only imagine that the stock bar has been extensivley crash tested at highway speed by D.C. and D.O.T.? granted these are different conditions. I mean the sports bar or full cage should be pretty high on any ones list of mods just not a requirement for trails like Terminator.
Marty

[Diablo]

I agree troys kit did ok but I still would have to say that there is no replacment for a cage that is welded and tied in to the frame........ That is why I'll keep on saving my money and get a bender and do it up. :D

I could be wrong here, but I believe Troy gives the purchaser of the kit the choice of using self-tapping screws, or tapping, or welding. That's called marketing.

Hell, I know a few folks who have his kit welded in place...

Now for a technical question. If you tie the cage into the frame, wouldn't that reduce the body's ability to flex? Or, would my hardtop be moving around the cage and maybe cause glass breakage? Where are the factory bars mounted (not the counting the silly bars between the "cage" and windshield). :cool:

[TBT SK]

Hi Kit,

We do both types. We can build you a full cage with frame tie ins. A hole is cut through the floor and insulated. The tubes do not touch the tub. Then there is a perch coming off the frame that the cage ties to. Overkill? Depends on your application. For competition use its a necessity. What you feel you need is up to you. I can accomodate either or anything in between.

Scott

[Devil Man]

I agree troys kit did ok but I still would have to say that there is no replacment for a cage that is welded and tied in to the frame........ That is why I'll keep on saving my money and get a bender and do it up. :D
i need to save up to buy me a cage :rolleyes: http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=262&stc=1

[Linda]

I was visiting a local diesel garage. In the back was a Ford Super Duty crew-cab model that had been through a violent rollover. The cab was crushed downward in the middle almost to the base of the seats -- like a big "V". Chances are the only survivor (if there was one) would have been a child in the rear seat if they were seat belted near one of the doors.

After seeing that truck I am planning on installing a roll cage in the cab of my Dodge Cummins. The extra weight of the diesel engine can easily crush a truck cab and its occupants. I don't think I want to rely on the Federal Government's minimum safety requirements for truck cabs to protect me from harm. I think the added cost of a cage is cheap insurance compared to what could happen without it.

The most dangerous place to drive is where everybody else wants to drive. Most of us use our 4x4s as daily drivers and the vehicle we drive are equipped with the minimum required saftey features required by law in the year they were manufactured. When you think about it, that isn't very much. The older the vehicle, the less there is.

If the Jamboree committee wants to increase requirements to keep participants safe then I'm all for it. Yes, it can increase the cost. Safety in our sport should always be at the top of the list.

[Sandee McCullen]

[QUOTE=KnetAZ]Perhaps I am missing something here. Why is a "sport cage" like what Troy or Or-Fab sells not considered a "roll cage". Is there evidence that these fail at too high a rate, or is this just folks guessing what would happen in a roll over? If there is some hard evidence, I would like to see it, cuz I run one of those cages.

It's my understanding that folks (like Troy) run these "sport cages" in events like CalRocks, where rollovers are commonplace. If they can hold up to that, why are they insufficient for Jamboree?
QUOTE]

I'm sure everyone's seen the vid clip of Tracy rolling over backwards about 5 times in Utah. She was equipped with Troy's kit. She was perfectly safe afterwards and was able to continue with HER rig for another two days. Check out the clip on Troy's site if you haven't seen it.

Having said that, why would Troy's kit not be sufficient?

I think there are people out there taking this WAY too seriously...

- Kit

Troy does NOT run a "sport cage" in CalRocs or UROC or ProRoc unless it is tied to the cage as per specs for competition. The competition specs require certain wall tubing and construction................ no where are these requirements for recreational use................. but a step up of "safety" is a necessity when upping the challenge.

I don't believe it has been posted anywhere that a "sport cage" is not acceptable for Jamboree and/or recreational use. A "cage" is required ..... period. A cage differs from a "roll bar" in that it encompasses the vehicle. Front, top, back and sides. It is not required to be welded or attached to the frame. A roll bar is a single bar over the head of the driver across the vehicle at the back of the driver seat.

Come on guys............... let some common sense rule here. This should not be such a big deal.

[weasel_ugs]

Since there are a few threads on this issue I think we mixed up issues. I think what we are worried about are these requirements going to be mandatory on our Jeeps to run the trails for recreation on the weekends?

Or maybe Im in the wrong thread :D ? Don

P.S. With all the threads started on this issue this should send a message to those in charge on how the OHV community feels about the proposed changes? Example: permits and veh. requirements for certain trails.

[Sandee McCullen]

Since there are a few threads on this issue I think we mixed up issues. I think what we are worried about are these requirements going to be mandatory on our Jeeps to run the trails for recreation on the weekends?

Or maybe Im in the wrong thread :D ? Don

P.S. With all the threads started on this issue this should send a message to those in charge on how the OHV community feels about the proposed changes? Example: permits and veh. requirements for certain trails.

FYI: The "required equipment" as posted on signs at the trailheads will be MANDATORY for ALL recreation............. the permits the BLM are considering at this time are not permits like we get for the 4x4 Jamboree or Spook Rally etc.............. this proposed permit will work like F/S Bull Dog Wash. In other words.......... it WON'T work. I just left a meeting at the STate BLM and it looks like they are going with "requirement signs" at the trailhead of the extreme trails and leaving the monitoring, maintenance and PATROL in OUR hands...............

The requirements will probably be for the 4.5 trails and above at this time, however right now BLM feel Terminators fit into this group so the 4.0 trails are at question. I'll work on it.

I'm sorry if I'm confusing everyone............... I realize sometimes this stuff gets overwhelming but...........Bottom line again:................. as the challenge grows so do the safety requirements. These requirements are in the 4x4 Jamboree plans because BLM will not issue the permit for this event without these safety requirements. Regarding: ALL THE TIME............ whatever they finally decide will be written into the Resource Management Plans and will be mandatory. ............ but consistent across the state. Each field office will require the same thing.

[Linda]

Bottom line again:................. as the challenge grows so do the safety requirements. These requirements are in the 4x4 Jamboree plans because BLM will not issue the permit for this event without these safety requirements. Regarding: ALL THE TIME............ whatever they finally decide will be written into the Resource Management Plans and will be mandatory. ............ but consistent across the state. Each field office will require the same thing.

Sandee,

Can the BLM really dictate safety equipment? I thought this was a state issue. I am thinking about the motorcycle helmet laws. Each state has its own laws regarding helmet usage. Are life jackets mandatory for boaters? Are there any situations where the Federal government has dictated personal safety for a recreational activity and policed it?

[flxy_tj]

I could be wrong here, but I believe Troy gives the purchaser of the kit the choice of using self-tapping screws, or tapping, or welding. That's called marketing.

Hell, I know a few folks who have his kit welded in place...

Now for a technical question. If you tie the cage into the frame, wouldn't that reduce the body's ability to flex? Or, would my hardtop be moving around the cage and maybe cause glass breakage? Where are the factory bars mounted (not the counting the silly bars between the "cage" and windshield). :cool:


That easy run a soft top.......... Then the glass won't break. :D :rolleyes:

[flxy_tj]

i need to save up to buy me a cage :rolleyes: http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=262&stc=1


I would like to do me a cage like some what like yours. It will give my son some good rollover protection in the back if it should ever happen while he is with me. When I do my cage I'm gonna get rid of the stock one completly.

[KnetAZ]

Yep, life jackets are mandatory for boaters. Gotta have one Coast Gaurd approved vest for every person on board, kids under a certain age must be wearing theirs. Must have a fire extinguisher on board as well, plus at least one throwable flotation device. Used to be a requirement to have a paddle too, not sure if that is still in effect.

[Devil Man]

I would like to do me a cage like some what like yours. It will give my son some good rollover protection in the back if it should ever happen while he is with me. When I do my cage I'm gonna get rid of the stock one completly.
HUNTER OFFROAD DID A GREAT JOB :D I DID A LITTLE AT A TIME AS I GOT THE MONEY I GAVE IT TO JOHN :eek: & WE SLOWLY PUT IT TOGETHER :D

[flxy_tj]

HUNTER OFFROAD DID A GREAT JOB :D I DID A LITTLE AT A TIME AS I GOT THE MONEY I GAVE IT TO JOHN :eek: & WE SLOWLY PUT IT TOGETHER :D


Hunter off road is doing some sweet projects lately may just have to talk to him about some things......

[Sandee McCullen]

Sandee,

Can the BLM really dictate safety equipment? I thought this was a state issue. I am thinking about the motorcycle helmet laws. Each state has its own laws regarding helmet usage. Are life jackets mandatory for boaters? Are there any situations where the Federal government has dictated personal safety for a recreational activity and policed it?

They can require certain equipment for safety purposes and/or conservation and protection to the resources. Arizona is more than half way into the management plans for the state. It looks as though the compromise for them to not completely CLOSE and/or not allow any trail that will cause them liability is to mandate some requirements. OUR guys are abusing the extreme trails......................... BLM are MANAGERS OF THE LAND.......... if they cannot manage the extreme trails or be able to show preservation......... they simply CLOSE.

The Resource Management Plans have absolutely nothing to do with State vehicle laws. They are simply the regulations mandated to the Bureau of Land Management, by the Secretary of the Interior, to "Manage the lands". This includes mining laws; grazing rights and recreation. They can "dictate", as you put it, by way of requirements that make sense to help resolve the liability issues regarding recreating on BLM lands. Many of the requirements are simply a way to hopefully stop the ABUSE.

As I stated earlier............. BLM LOST a $1,000,000.00 liability suite a couple of years ago when some idiot entered a mine shaft near Parker. He then fell down a vertical shaft. He was not seriously hurt but sued the BLM for negligence for not "warning him it was dangerous to enter the mine". DUH!! Yes, they may be paranoid about their liability but they have good reason to be. What do you think they have to do when the GREENIES see our trails.................. i.e. Annilhilator before the cleanup! They had an absolute fit about a simple "tip over" when Mookie laid his Jeep on it's side in Martinez a couple of months ago. The minute a greenie see's this kind of mess they immediately file suit to CLOSE a trail and/or an area because they claim "BLM is not managing the lands or resources". WE are the reason for the equipment requirements. If our people would show respect and not go into trails and stack rocks, make by-passes or leave broken axles, U-joints, tail light lenses, bumpers, fenders and massive amounts of oil............... there wouldn't need to be requirements or permits.

I don't know how to get this point across to you guys but I'm done trying. There are no requirements that are out of line for anyone. We do not have the right to enter public lands and do whatever we please. The BLM and Forest Service are truly trying to work with the motorized users but if the whinning and threats continue they will simply CLOSE to all........... recognizing the motorized community to be the yahoos we've been accused of. BLM and FS are trying to compromise and understand the needs of the motorized recreationists but if our people cannot accept simple safety requirements to fit the level of the trail then so be it.......... when the RMP's come out they will either note "all extreme trails and/or washes" are NOT available or the requirements along with a strict permitting system will be a part of the RMP.

[Sandee McCullen]

I was visiting a local diesel garage. In the back was a Ford Super Duty crew-cab model that had been through a violent rollover. The cab was crushed downward in the middle almost to the base of the seats -- like a big "V". Chances are the only survivor (if there was one) would have been a child in the rear seat if they were seat belted near one of the doors.

After seeing that truck I am planning on installing a roll cage in the cab of my Dodge Cummins. The extra weight of the diesel engine can easily crush a truck cab and its occupants. I don't think I want to rely on the Federal Government's minimum safety requirements for truck cabs to protect me from harm. I think the added cost of a cage is cheap insurance compared to what could happen without it.

The most dangerous place to drive is where everybody else wants to drive. Most of us use our 4x4s as daily drivers and the vehicle we drive are equipped with the minimum required saftey features required by law in the year they were manufactured. When you think about it, that isn't very much. The older the vehicle, the less there is.

If the Jamboree committee wants to increase requirements to keep participants safe then I'm all for it. Yes, it can increase the cost. Safety in our sport should always be at the top of the list.

Thanks Linda.............. well stated.

For all of you "XJ" owners that feel a roll bar and/or cage is asking too much............. check out page 138, lower right picture, of Petersens' 4-Wheel & Off-Road, Sept 04 issue.

How many vehicles have we had or heard about that rolled off the road to Crown King?........... Killed or seriously hurt? We MUST start considering safety, liability and resources.

[Linda]

I am being a little sarcastic here. No need to reply.

What about equestrians, bicycle riders, ATV & motorcycle riders, and hikers that use the same trails for recreation? Will they also be required to use appropriate safety equipment? I can just see a rancher wearing a safety helmet instead of a cowboy hat when riding his horse on BLM land.

Anyway...

Sandee,
Thanks for clarifying BLM's rule making authority. It's downright scary, but that's our government -- always trying to protect us from ourselves. You would think that none of us have any common sense.

[OlneyJeeps]

It has been sad to see how everyone jabbers on about cages, seemingly ignoring the #1 and 2 killers in rollovers: occupant and equipment restraint. Sadly, on nearly every event/trail I've been to, I've gotten the evil eye for holding up the group while I (and my passengers as I force them to as well) buckle up with a 4point harness (other drivers just hop in and go).

This has also included rock crawling events where drivers are straped so loosly they can lean out half way to look under the rear tires (nearly eliminating benifit of shoulder harnesses). What the hell kind of example is that??!!!

Not to say they don't happen, but having been active in head injury recovery for several years (20mph roll over graded road 17 ago with full 6pt cage but only a lap belt which allowed me to fall sideways just enough to hit a rock causing 5 day coma and irreperable damage/change of life), I have met hundreds of people with minor to severe injuries wit a miriad of causes and NONE (with exception of unsurviveable reguardless of cage/restraint) were because of roof collapse. On the other hand, I cannot count how many were thrown partially/completely out due to improper/non existant restraint. Additionally, many were injured by non restrained contents (including passengers... imagine the damage a wide open mouth can do at 35mph).

Using rollovers at Crown King or like shown in 4Wheelers (or, dare I bring up Sharky) as examples is equivilant to requiring full cages when you leave the pavement, as the worst of these accidents generally happen on 2.0 or lower sections and are generally a result of excessive speed combined with multiple other factors.

Please don't get me wrong... a good cage is an excellent idea. my CJ7 has a 6pt cage with integrated seat mounts/side impact support by Randy Ellis and my CJ2A has a 6pt gusseted family cage also by Randy Ellis. However the most (IMHO) important safty device is good and PROPERLY ADJUSTED restraints. Passengers of my Jeep (and hard core rock crawlers as noted in several magizines ) note / complain that a tight 4pt harness limits their movement... TOUGH!!

IMHO, before cage requirements are implemented, proper restraint (and restraint use) must be inforced (by us and our clubs... NOT the government).
If someone does not want to use the belt, they are not allowed in my Jeep.

If someone wants to potentially tarnish our (or any club holding an event) safety record by potentially injuring or killing themselves (do I need to once again remind of passenger killed when full caged (still impounded by sheriff TTBOMK) Jeep rolled over him about a year ago), WE (trail leader, participants) need to "police" ourselves and not allow wreckless behavior.

Officially off the rambling soap box

[desertfabmotors]

:D It has been sad to see how everyone jabbers on about cages, seemingly ignoring the #1 and 2 killers in rollovers: occupant and equipment restraint. Sadly, on nearly every event/trail I've been to, I've gotten the evil eye for holding up the group while I (and my passengers as I force them to as well) buckle up with a 4point harness (other drivers just hop in and go).

This has also included rock crawling events where drivers are straped so loosly they can lean out half way to look under the rear tires (nearly eliminating benifit of shoulder harnesses). What the hell kind of example is that??!!!

Not to say they don't happen, but having been active in head injury recovery for several years (20mph roll over graded road 17 ago with full 6pt cage but only a lap belt which allowed me to fall sideways just enough to hit a rock causing 5 day coma and irreperable damage/change of life), I have met hundreds of people with minor to severe injuries wit a miriad of causes and NONE (with exception of unsurviveable reguardless of cage/restraint) were because of roof collapse. On the other hand, I cannot count how many were thrown partially/completely out due to improper/non existant restraint. Additionally, many were injured by non restrained contents (including passengers... imagine the damage a wide open mouth can do at 35mph).

Using rollovers at Crown King or like shown in 4Wheelers (or, dare I bring up Sharky) as examples is equivilant to requiring full cages when you leave the pavement, as the worst of these accidents generally happen on 2.0 or lower sections and are generally a result of excessive speed combined with multiple other factors.

Please don't get me wrong... a good cage is an excellent idea. my CJ7 has a 6pt cage with integrated seat mounts/side impact support by Randy Ellis and my CJ2A has a 6pt gusseted family cage also by Randy Ellis. However the most (IMHO) important safty device is good and PROPERLY ADJUSTED restraints. Passengers of my Jeep (and hard core rock crawlers as noted in several magizines ) note / complain that a tight 4pt harness limits their movement... TOUGH!!

IMHO, before cage requirements are implemented, proper restraint (and restraint use) must be inforced (by us and our clubs... NOT the government).
If someone does not want to use the belt, they are not allowed in my Jeep.

If someone wants to potentially tarnish our (or any club holding an event) safety record by potentially injuring or killing themselves (do I need to once again remind of passenger killed when full caged (still impounded by sheriff TTBOMK) Jeep rolled over him about a year ago), WE (trail leader, participants) need to "police" ourselves and not allow wreckless behavior.

Officially off the rambling soap box

I agree, retraints are just as important has a properly built cage. Quick release seat belts are a must, factory push button type belts are very difficult to release when you have pressure on them.

Todd
www.desertfab.com

[OlneyJeeps]

additionally, many factory belts are inertia locking (lock slack when encounter sudden stop of forward movement). Because I don't trust for sideways (rollover might not lock). Ratching belts are much better but can be pain (oh whell) because they "sinch" up on you when you go over bumps