Trail Rating/equipment Requirements

[Sandee McCullen]

Here's what's up guys......................

Word leaked out yesterday that BLM is looking at requiring ALL 4.0 trails and above (in their words......... " Any/all rock crawling or extreme technical trails"......... They feel Terminators are "rock crawling" trails) will require a permit to use. There is to be a state leadership meeting next week that I have been invited to.............. (they didn't have much of a choice) but I MUST sell these guys on a "plan" or we will truly be locked into a mess. I realize, and most likely you all do also, that there is no way they could ever police or manage something like this but if it gets into the Resource Management Plans we're locked in for 10 to 15 years. Even and amendment would take 5 years or more. This is being looked at STATEWIDE. I have been yelling "consistency" to them for a number of years............... Well, this is what they consider consistency. WE need to join together to show them there is another way to manage recreation consistently.

Same ole story................. They are concerned about "non-qualified" vehicles traversing the technical trails. Again............ Rock stacking must stop; by-passes must stop; keeping our trails clean from oil and unnecessary marks is an absolute necessity. Another of their concerns is the liability. I thought that throughout the past several months when I sat with the managers to develop the "rating/requirement" for signing, they were content that WE would respect and honor the requirements and directives. I guess now they feel this isn't enough.

Between now and Wednesday next week I have to write a PLAN for the technical trails and "how" to implement the safety or management of the technical trails. The first thing they need to see and accept is commitment from us (clubs and/or individuals) that we will help in management and patrol of our trails. If this means turning in a fellow 4-wheeler for not abiding by the rules of the road.............. So be it. If each club would send a short paragraph stating their support of "self patrol" and "responsible use" I can present this as a show of good faith to allow us to show our support and partnership of responsible use BEFORE laws or regulations are implemented to gate or close our trails.

The land managers and VERY concerned about their liability of recreationists on technical trails............. As are the insurance companies. Our insurer in Arizona is issuing us liability coverage to cover the land managers but it's still very iffy for the insurance companies unless we can show "sincere intent" and "education" re the safety of our sport................... Most states cannot even obtain liability coverage to enable them to host events within their association or clubs.

I'm sure there are a number of you that are going to blaze over the roll bar and/or roll cage requirements but before you fume too long think of the alternative........................ No trails to require special equipment................ Thusly no liability for the insurance companies or the land managers.

If we all truly consider the safety issues of our sport on any trails above a stock 2.0 - 3.0 trail I think most would agree it's worth thinking about. We cannot continue to wheel anywhere, anytime like we have in the past 40 plus years. We are now on the front page; are being viewed and watched very closely; are losing more than we're keeping; and in simple words must "Leave No Trace"........................ As recreationists in Arizona we are outright spoiled! We have hundreds of miles of trails of all levels of difficulty; we have never had rules or keepers............... We do now. This will not change. ............... WE must change. Change our views, attitudes and methods of 4-wheeling as our sport. If we continue to abuse our trails at the rate we're at right now all of our trails will look like Sycamore within 10 years........................ That will force closure!

Your help and consideration will certainly help this change in process easier. If anyone has any ideas on what I can present as OUR PLAN on managing and maintaining our trails to meet the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) it will help convince the managers you all do want to help.

THANKS, Sandee

[JamesT]

I have two questions:

First, are these policies being implemented across the country on all BLM land? Since BLM is a national agency, if they aren't, then there is a double standard being applied.

and Second, who is going to inspect and where are they getting the resources to inspect vehicles? Are we going to have to find some out-of-the-way BLM office and try to find a time that they are open to drag our rigs down there?

Maybe one comment too; You are suggesting we police the trails? You have got to be kidding. Granted if there is some flagerent stock vehicle on a 4.0 rated trail I may say something, but I am not going to go around and make sure every vehicle on the trail is up to specs.

Maybe I am reading this wrong, you are talking about all the time, correct? This is not just for events. I carry my own insurance and I am pretty sure it covers me all the time, even off road.

[Sandee McCullen]

I have two questions:

First, are these policies being implemented across the country on all BLM land? Since BLM is a national agency, if they aren't, then there is a double standard being applied.

and Second, who is going to inspect and where are they getting the resources to inspect vehicles? Are we going to have to find some out-of-the-way BLM office and try to find a time that they are open to drag our rigs down there?

Maybe one comment too; You are suggesting we police the trails? You have got to be kidding. Granted if there is some flagerent stock vehicle on a 4.0 rated trail I may say something, but I am not going to go around and make sure every vehicle on the trail is up to specs.

Maybe I am reading this wrong, you are talking about all the time, correct? This is not just for events. I carry my own insurance and I am pretty sure it covers me all the time, even off road.

In short:

No this is not being implemented across all BLM lands and no, it doesn't make it a double standard. Each state, as well as each Field Office, can implement standards that fit their issues or situations. As it is right now Arizona is a leader in having the most "existing route inventory" done as well as having 5 BLM Resource Plans open at this time along with 2 from Forest Service. Arizona BLM will be approving a BLM Adopt-a-Road policy in August. This will be the first BLM state to have an official Adopt-a-Trail program but most likely it will be adopted across BLM in the future. The same goes for many of the "solutions" Arizona approves for "extreme trail use" within the new RMP's.

I'm not sure where this "permit" thing is coming from and I will fight it.............. what my message was is "this is what they want to implement............. I need support from all of you stating YOU ALL will help police ourselves........... and keep our trails as "LEAVE NO TRACE". This means no rock stacking; no by-passes; no spills; no, or little, visual impact such as tearing up a bank or sidewall of a bank or hillside. It doesn't mean you have to "tech everyones vehicles" nor does it mean you have to turn anyone in............... what it does mean is we cannot invite friends on trails we know are not equipped to do at this time. We cannot tell them........... no problem, we can pull you through or stack rocks. If we can sincerely commit to the agencies (Forest Service will be right at the back door of BLM in all these issues) that we do and will show good faith to educate our own and consider the resources we will keep our trails for our use............... if we continue to abuse...... we lose.

All of your comments about "permits" plus numerous others are on my list to present to the BLM............. "how" will they implement this process and "what" do they plan to gain from it?

You may have personal insurance and don't care about "events" but many other 4-wheelers do enjoy planned events. We cannot offer "events" without insurance to cover the land managers or land owners. Arizona is very lucky in the fact we have been able to obtain this coverage for now...... the insurance underwriters for Arizona are wary and cautious each year but most states or groups cannot obtain insurance at all. This is important to many.

In answer to your last question........... yes, this permit would be for ALL.

WE must change our way of wheeling and our attitude about how we do it. I believe we can make this work but being defiant won't work. If defiance rules and those few get caught we ALL lose............

Sandee

[JamesT]

I am not trying to be "defiant". It seems to me that some one hasn't thought this through.

In general, education is the first step. This means BLM handing out flyers, posting signage and getting their message out. This should be no problem for them, because they seem to think they have the resources to implement other things. If this fails then you go to more extreme options.
Another thing that goes along with the above is, if there is nothing posted at the entrances to the trails they are purposing this for they won't have much legal recourse. So the signage needs to be put in place first. In other words, if "Joe Blow" is crusing around Table Mesa in his stock vehicle and happens to wind up on Terminator, with no signage saying "This is off limits to stock vehicles" the BLM cannot prosecute him, and if they tried too, probably nothing would come of it.

Another thing is, some of these trails are 4.0 on some lines and 2.5 on other lines. How the heck are they going to try to regulate that? I can see it now, a sign (that will get washed away in the next heavy rain) in some wash "Left requires a permit and right doesn't" the signs continue up the entire wash. Next thing you know, you get some "ex-military" saying, I thought you meant my "miltary right", :p or, my right as I was coming down the wash.

[Sandee McCullen]

I am not trying to be "defiant". It seems to me that some one hasn't thought this through.

In general, education is the first step. This means BLM handing out flyers, posting signage and getting their message out. This should be no problem for them, because they seem to think they have the resources to implement other things. If this fails then you go to more extreme options.
Another thing that goes along with the above is, if there is nothing posted at the entrances to the trails they are purposing this for they won't have much legal recourse. So the signage needs to be put in place first. In other words, if "Joe Blow" is crusing around Table Mesa in his stock vehicle and happens to wind up on Terminator, with no signage saying "This is off limits to stock vehicles" the BLM cannot prosecute him, and if they tried too, probably nothing would come of it.

Another thing is, some of these trails are 4.0 on some lines and 2.5 on other lines. How the heck are they going to try to regulate that? I can see it now, a sign (that will get washed away in the next heavy rain) in some wash "Left requires a permit and right doesn't" the signs continue up the entire wash. Next thing you know, you get some "ex-military" saying, I thought you meant my "miltary right", :p or, my right as I was coming down the wash.

I didn't intend my statement of "defiant" to mean you........... it's an overall statement involving many recreationists that refuse to change or feel they have the right to do as they wish on PUBLIC lands. ............ my apologies if it sounded like it was directed at you or anyone specific.

I understand ALL your issues......... these are the facts I intend to face them with next week. Again, my point.............. how many OHV recreationists are willing to accept "managing our own"? If I go into this meeting with no support from the OHV community indicating they will look to pushing the education and compliance, the managers will simply "require permits" and when that doesn't work (personally I think they know it won't work) they can then CLOSE the trails and blame the closures on US because we wouldn't comply and they couldn't enforce............

Don't ever think they cannot do this........... they can offer a "recreation transportation system they feel is safe for both us and them" and be done with it. I personally believe these guys....... with pressure from the GAGS, would go so far as to blast some of these trails closed to eliminate our access capabilities.

You're right.......... "education is the first step"............ but are you going to "read" or "comply with the flyer a government agency hands out?; is your friend that doesn't have the required equipment going to pay attention?; if we disagree with "THEIR MESSAGE" are we going to comply?................ I doubt it. If they get this permit issue through we simply lose it all when they see "compliance" isn't there. The education needs to come from within our own..........as does the compliance.

I cannot even get VJC guys to help support Hunter Off Road (approx $5.00 per person) for his ORBA membership where we can obtain legal support............... how does anyone think we can "sue" on our own? or fight for our rights? The 4-wheelers in the east have to drive 3 hours to a "park", pay anywhere from $20.00 - $35.00/$40.00 a day or weekend to 4-wheel. Why is it our people cannot dig into their pockets for a few bucks to help support and fight for our trails AND rights?......... maybe combining our sport with helping legal by hosting a "Fund raising Trail Ride" is something to think about. The annual Crown King AzVJC ride be a "fund raiser" to help defend our rights?............ The annual Hunter Off Road BBQ........ ???????? There are dozens of ways to help.

Recreationists in the west/southwest are very apathetic about the massive issues before us. They don't believe the land managers "can do anything to us" ... all they want to do is play. States all around us are losing miles of trails but our guys sit back and believe "it cannot happen to us". They are in for a BIG SURPRISE. WE need to be responsible, educate, comply, and most of all need to "get involved" in the issues and understand what WE HAVE TO DO. It's not going to be handed to us on a golden platter. Writing to me with all the issues of "how can they"?; "what do they expect to do"?; "they need to educate" is not getting involved.

They have full intention of "POSTING SIGNS" at the trailheads. These are the signs with "trail descriptions and equipment requirements" that the agencies, insurance underwriters and a group of OHV recreationists have been working on for the past couple of months.............. our guys don't agree with the requirements either. It seems the OHV recreationists simply want it all their way. That is not going to happen.

I will personally fight this permit issue to the end. I do not believe it can or will work but maybe that's exactly what they want. MAYBE?????........ They can then close the trails, don't have to manage, don't have to work to monitor or maintain the trails.............

I apologize for harping on and on about this but once again............ I KNOW this permit issue is not going to work. You all need to consider what happens when it doesn't................ WE WILL BE AT BLAME and WE ARE THE ONES THAT WILL LOSE. Will the 4x4 community, support compliance to the trail/equipment requirements and will they change their attitude about the wheeling they do? Will they help educate and police our own? Will they make an attempt to understand the NEPA requirements the land managers must work under? Will they find time to "get involved"? All the answers lie within these few questions.

[FlexyXJ]

I didn't intend my statement of "defiant" to mean you........... it's an overall statement involving many recreationists that refuse to change or feel they have the right to do as they wish on PUBLIC lands. ............ my apologies if it sounded like it was directed at you or anyone specific.

I understand ALL your issues......... these are the facts I intend to face them with next week. Again, my point.............. how many OHV recreationists are willing to accept "managing our own"? If I go into this meeting with no support from the OHV community indicating they will look to pushing the education and compliance, the managers will simply "require permits" and when that doesn't work (personally I think they know it won't work) they can then CLOSE the trails and blame the closures on US because we wouldn't comply and they couldn't enforce............

Don't ever think they cannot do this........... they can offer a "recreation transportation system they feel is safe for both us and them" and be done with it. I personally believe these guys....... with pressure from the GAGS, would go so far as to blast some of these trails closed to eliminate our access capabilities.

You're right.......... "education is the first step"............ but are you going to "read" or "comply with the flyer a government agency hands out?; is your friend that doesn't have the required equipment going to pay attention?; if we disagree with "THEIR MESSAGE" are we going to comply?................ I doubt it. If they get this permit issue through we simply lose it all when they see "compliance" isn't there. The education needs to come from within our own..........as does the compliance.

I cannot even get VJC guys to help support Hunter Off Road (approx $5.00 per person) for his ORBA membership where we can obtain legal support............... how does anyone think we can "sue" on our own? or fight for our rights? The 4-wheelers in the east have to drive 3 hours to a "park", pay anywhere from $20.00 - $35.00/$40.00 a day or weekend to 4-wheel. Why is it our people cannot dig into their pockets for a few bucks to help support and fight for our trails AND rights?......... maybe combining our sport with helping legal by hosting a "Fund raising Trail Ride" is something to think about. The annual Crown King AzVJC ride be a "fund raiser" to help defend our rights?............ The annual Hunter Off Road BBQ........ ???????? There are dozens of ways to help.

Recreationists in the west/southwest are very apathetic about the massive issues before us. They don't believe the land managers "can do anything to us" ... all they want to do is play. States all around us are losing miles of trails but our guys sit back and believe "it cannot happen to us". They are in for a BIG SURPRISE. WE need to be responsible, educate, comply, and most of all need to "get involved" in the issues and understand what WE HAVE TO DO. It's not going to be handed to us on a golden platter. Writing to me with all the issues of "how can they"?; "what do they expect to do"?; "they need to educate" is not getting involved.

They have full intention of "POSTING SIGNS" at the trailheads. These are the signs with "trail descriptions and equipment requirements" that the agencies, insurance underwriters and a group of OHV recreationists have been working on for the past couple of months.............. our guys don't agree with the requirements either. It seems the OHV recreationists simply want it all their way. That is not going to happen.

I will personally fight this permit issue to the end. I do not believe it can or will work but maybe that's exactly what they want. MAYBE?????........ They can then close the trails, don't have to manage, don't have to work to monitor or maintain the trails.............

I apologize for harping on and on about this but once again............ I KNOW this permit issue is not going to work. You all need to consider what happens when it doesn't................ WE WILL BE AT BLAME and WE ARE THE ONES THAT WILL LOSE. Will the 4x4 community, support compliance to the trail/equipment requirements and will they change their attitude about the wheeling they do? Will they help educate and police our own? Will they make an attempt to understand the NEPA requirements the land managers must work under? Will they find time to "get involved"? All the answers lie within these few questions.


Sandee, I may be wrong, But isn't this all being based on a trail "system" that WE helped implement? :eek: If in truth thats what it is, then this will cease all help that the BLM will get from me in helping "implement" trail ideas.
I was under the idea that this would not hurt us, by doing and assisting the BLM, But however now it appears to have taken a turn. And a wrong turn at that. Please clarify for me......


Joe

[JamesT]

Sandee, I may be wrong, But isn't this all being based on a trail "system" that WE helped implement? :eek: Joe

Yeah and once they implement their program, we are switching to the Colorado based system. So stock Jeeps can run Terminator again... :p

[Sandee McCullen]

Sandee, I may be wrong, But isn't this all being based on a trail "system" that WE helped implement? :eek: If in truth thats what it is, then this will cease all help that the BLM will get from me in helping "implement" trail ideas.
I was under the idea that this would not hurt us, by doing and assisting the BLM, But however now it appears to have taken a turn. And a wrong turn at that. Please clarify for me......


Joe

You are absolutely right and I have full intention of letting them know this..... The bottom line regarding identifying the trails is still: If we didn't identify them they would be closed........... not just permited or regulated. I don't like this BS one bit but I do believe we can win this with support from all. The agencies know our numbers and are feeling our "strength" but they are also "calling our bluff" regarding whether we will truly "SUE" as a result. Until we get business support to ORBA where we can get legal support we will lose this battle. There is no way Arizona can initiate a legal action against BLM without a minimum of $100,000.00............ It costs big buck just to file a FOIA for us to obtain the data and/or facts they have supporting a decision............. BRC has helped on a number of issues but they tend to lean towards the national issues and/or snowmobiles and/or bikes and ATV's. We MUST partner with those that can and will help us.

We MUST back up our strengths!

I need a number of letters exactly like yours............ if I can take 100+ letters like yours to the meeting where these leaders can see what the public thinks about this it will make a difference.

I don't believe BLM is proposing this "permitting system" to hurt us or close trails............ they simply don't know what to do about the growing numbers of OHV recreationists traversing trails they are not capable of. These are the guys that are stacking rocks, making by-passes, ripping oil pans,and leaving U-joint parts and broken axles when they do break. If we truly followed the "LEAVE NO TRACE" these regulatory agencies wouldn't even know we were there. The "greenies" couldn't declare "BLM or FS are NOT manageing or protecting the lands". We certainly have enough trails in Arizona to accomodate ALL levels of vehicle capabilities and driver experience. As our experience develops and our vehicles modify, so can the level of trail................ that's the whole reason for lockers, D60 axles, beefed up parts, larger tires, air pressure and a whole page of other modifications.

Don't you dare back out on me now.................. if they see weakness from us they WILL simply close everything they deem "unmanageable" or "unsafe" or "a detriment to the resources". WE are the only ones that can stop this action.

[Hackle]

There have been a lot of comments about this on the Yahoo e-mail. From what I have seen Sandee is getting plenty of info, but we need more input and everyone's involvement in this issue.
Jim F.

[JamesT]

........ Until we get business support to ORBA where we can get legal support we will lose this battle. ........

In a post you had on Yahoo, you stated 4 Wheelers Supply and Desert Fab were both ORBA members, in addition to John at Hunter Offroad wanting to participate (the post was regarding Toys by Troy not being a member, so take your business to someone that is. I can look it up if needs be). Was your statement false? Are 4 Wheelers Supply and Desrt Fab members, or not? How many, knowing the more the better, are you talking about needing here?

I digress, sorry.....

[weasel_ugs]

I remember when the trail inventory started some people were worried this might give them(BLM) all the trails so they can close them and we were assured this was not the case. Was this their intention the whole time to mislead or did something change their mind recently? What ever happened to all the input from all the planning meetings they had for the last year? Don

[AZXJ]

In my opinion.

A permit system would benifit both the OHV community and the BLM.
Why? you ask. It's simple. education and dollars.... If you have to pass a small test to get your permit/liscense and pay a minimal one time fee (wich should include state trust permits) Then everyone will be educated in the proper use of OHV vehicles and our Land. This is 2004 folks not the 1900's Times change and so do the requirements for us to enjoy our sport. I have been saying for the last 5 years now that we need to get out to the high schools and colleges to educate the new OHV users.. I know allot of you are thinking oh great now not only do I have to have liscense on my rig but now I need a liscense to drive it. I agree, but think out side the box...or better yet. Think back to when you first started wheeling. Did you know 1/4 of what you know now??
I know I didn't. But with the help of members from the Arizona Virtual Jeep club as well as members from the ArizonaXJ club I learned and I know I am a very responsible wheeler. I'm involved in meetings I am involved with Blue Ribbon, Tread lightly and United Four wheel drive Assoc. Why? because of the knowledge and influences from the members of both the ArizonaXJ club and the Arizona Virtual Jeep club. I have a fishing liscense but I have known how to fish since I was in diapers. But I still go every year to renew my liscense. Why? Because I enjoy the sport and taking my kids fishing.

I say if you truely enjoy this sport it's worth not only fighting for but paying for it..

Sandee, I believe in you and your efforts. I personally thank you for all that you do. Myself and the ArizonaXJ club are here for your support.

Thanks for you time
DaveO ArizonaXJ@hotmail.com

[desertfabmotors]

Yes I am a member od ORBA. :) :)

Todd
www.desertfab.com


In a post you had on Yahoo, you stated 4 Wheelers Supply and Desert Fab were both ORBA members, in addition to John at Hunter Offroad wanting to participate (the post was regarding Toys by Troy not being a member, so take your business to someone that is. I can look it up if needs be). Was your statement false? Are 4 Wheelers Supply and Desrt Fab members, or not? How many, knowing the more the better, are you talking about needing here?

I digress, sorry.....

[1BLKJP]

Sandee,

Is ORBA currently doing anything in Arizona to help us with the issues that we are facing? In looking on their site there are a number of business in AZ that are members.

4 Wheeler's Supply
Arizona Motorsports
Chirco Automotive
Daystar Products International, Inc.
Desert Fabrication
Desert Motorsports
E-Ton
Fly-N-Hi Off Road Center
Karl's Custom
KC Hilites
Kustom Desert Cycle
Liberty Motorsports
Marketing Services Intl, LTD
Metro Motorsports
Motorcycle Accessory Shop
Off Road Buggy Supply
Performance Accessories
Town & Country Motorsports
Trick Products Inc.
Tucson Cycle & Ski
Tucson Motorsports
USA Motorsports
Walt's Motorsports & Marine
Xtreme Tire Co. Inc.
Yarnell Specialites
YSA Motorsports

The above are all AZ companies that are members. From just a quick browse it looks like we are second to CA as far as member companies of the association. Now I am not condemning by any means some of the topics that are up for comment with the different agencies, but it just seems to me that ORBA was put together for this specific reason and I have heard nothing from them helping us out in these matters.

[FlexyXJ]

Sandee,

Is ORBA currently doing anything in Arizona to help us with the issues that we are facing? In looking on their site there are a number of business in AZ that are members.

4 Wheeler's Supply
Arizona Motorsports
Chirco Automotive
Daystar Products International, Inc.
Desert Fabrication
Desert Motorsports
E-Ton
Fly-N-Hi Off Road Center
Karl's Custom
KC Hilites
Kustom Desert Cycle
Liberty Motorsports
Marketing Services Intl, LTD
Metro Motorsports
Motorcycle Accessory Shop
Off Road Buggy Supply
Performance Accessories
Town & Country Motorsports
Trick Products Inc.
Tucson Cycle & Ski
Tucson Motorsports
USA Motorsports
Walt's Motorsports & Marine
Xtreme Tire Co. Inc.
Yarnell Specialites
YSA Motorsports

The above are all AZ companies that are members. From just a quick browse it looks like we are second to CA as far as member companies of the association. Now I am not condemning by any means some of the topics that are up for comment with the different agencies, but it just seems to me that ORBA was put together for this specific reason and I have heard nothing from them helping us out in these matters.


Where is "Desert rat" and "Toys by Troy" And all of the other vendors we purchase items from???? I am ALMOST positive that John K (Hunter Offroad) Is a member also....But seriously, I think the vendors that we give our hard earned $$ to in this sport should be members of ORBA?? ORBA is a great thing, and should be supported FULLY. Period. If you are in this hobby/sport, than you should know and understand what ORBA does for us.


Joe

[TBT SK]

Hmm, where is all the evidence of things that ORBA is doing that directly relates to the sport of rockcrawling in AZ? I see sand, cinders, sand, and more sand here.

Scott

[FlexyXJ]

:rolleyes: Hmm, where is all the evidence of things that ORBA is doing that directly relates to the sport of rockcrawling in AZ? I see sand, cinders, sand, and more sand here.

Scott :rolleyes:

[weasel_ugs]

I dont see how a permit system will help considering not everyone gets a permit to drive on state land trust as it is. I think the only people that will know to get permits and have them are the ones that know the issues at hand and leave no trace. The people that do most of the destruction probably dont know you need a permit and probably dont care.How do we stop these people? Don

[skruize]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Joe,

Seriously though. I'm just doing research for the boss. I understand what ORBA's purpose is, and why they are there. Per their website they are there to protect the interest of the business owners who would lose money if these areas were to close. All I believe Troy wants to see before donating is that they are working on areas that involve Arizona wheeling other than sand. ORBA seems to mostly represent the sand areas. If you guys can point me to some things that show otherwise I'd really appreciate that.

Its similar to seeing the homeless man on the corner panhandling for money. Is he feeding his family, or is he looking for the next bottle of booze? You can't blame him for wanting this money to support the local interests and not just those out of California or for the sand groups.

Now let me say before I get personally flamed, I'm just doing my job here. :D

Thanks,

Scott

[Woody]

Joe,

Seriously though. I'm just doing research for the boss. I understand what ORBA's purpose is, and why they are there. Per their website they are there to protect the interest of the business owners who would lose money if these areas were to close. All I believe Troy wants to see before donating is that they are working on areas that involve Arizona wheeling other than sand. ORBA seems to mostly represent the sand areas. If you guys can point me to some things that show otherwise I'd really appreciate that.

Its similar to seeing the homeless man on the corner panhandling for money. Is he feeding his family, or is he looking for the next bottle of booze? You can't blame him for wanting this money to support the local interests and not just those out of California or for the sand groups.

Now let me say before I get personally flamed, I'm just doing my job here. :D

Thanks,

Scott

Why doesn't Troy ever post his own thoughts here on the board? Are you paid to be his "official spokesperson"?

Rick

[skruize]

Why doesn't Troy ever post his own thoughts here on the board? Are you paid to be his "official spokesperson"?

Rick

Rick,

I'm here to get input from the people that buy Troys stuff and hear the criticism from those that don't. You will always have that friction. I think its healthy to be open minded about that. There will be times you will hear my opinion and times that you hear Troys. Please realize that in some cases even Troy and I "agree to disagree" on some topics. Thats healthy too.

We build plenty of custom cages over here. 6 point, frame tie ins, etc. From standard to ridiculously custom. Whatever a customer wants. Most are comfortable with the well known sport bar kit. If a customer wants more, then we can accomodate that.

Hope that helps.

Scott

[Sandee McCullen]

Joe,

Seriously though. I'm just doing research for the boss. I understand what ORBA's purpose is, and why they are there. Per their website they are there to protect the interest of the business owners who would lose money if these areas were to close. All I believe Troy wants to see before donating is that they are working on areas that involve Arizona wheeling other than sand. ORBA seems to mostly represent the sand areas. If you guys can point me to some things that show otherwise I'd really appreciate that.

Its similar to seeing the homeless man on the corner panhandling for money. Is he feeding his family, or is he looking for the next bottle of booze? You can't blame him for wanting this money to support the local interests and not just those out of California or for the sand groups.

Now let me say before I get personally flamed, I'm just doing my job here. :D

Thanks,

Scott

ORBA does not just support "sand"................. Take a look at the dealers/business that are supporting ORBA. How many do you see from the 4x4 community? NOT MANY. If we don't support ORBA, why would we expect ORBA to support us?

ORBA is different from BRC or United in that they will step into LOCAL issues where BRC and United tend to deal with more national land use issues.

What ORBA has done for 4-wheeling........... WITHOUT OUR SUPPORT.
Saved thousands of acres of the OHV area at the Cinders Recreation area from being absorbed into the preserve.

Gave the ASA4WDC $2500.00 cash to fight the Pygmy Owl issue and pay for FOIA's.

Have written numerous letters in our support to warn off a closure or action.

Have fought extremely hard for the Glamis Dunes......... this pursuit was not ORBA alone but a combination of groups working together.

Helped on the Jawbreaker Appeal.

Fight for 4x4 cause and rights in D.C. They have a lobbyist and numerous top legislative bodies that support our rights.

Have written very substansive responses to ALL the Draft EIS plans out from both BLM and F/S.

Have sent attorney staff to Arizona to attend scoping meetings on our behalf. The original F/S EIS regarding "Cross Country Travel" would have gotten us into a heap of problems had ORBA attorney not written a very substansive report noting what they "could NOT do". We WON.

Have sponsored trips to D.C. and helped with ASA4WDC land use staff expenses.

I was recently asked by BLM Director Clarke to write a proposal refering to a "Organized Casual Use" classification for the BLM CFR's/Manual. ORBA readily offered help the minute I called for help or guidence.

These are just a few of the issues ORBA has specifically helped the 4x4 community in Arizona. They are working towards "business discounts" at specific stores and a "medical plan" for small businesses.

Hunter is not currently an ORBA member............... he fell on some tough times and I have pursued the AzVJC to dig into their pockets to fund Hunters yearly membership. ................ Not much luck. Have approx. $250.00 of $1,000.00. He certainly deserves our support. I know he's cut many of you a "deal".

I will truthfully be surprised if any "reports of ORBA actions" will encourage our business to join in the fight............. the apathy within 4x4 is tremendous. Hopefully we don't lose everything before they realize the lose. Irregardless of our apathy, ORBA has stepped up to the block each and every time I've called for help.

They have done TONS of help for 4x4 in California, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah, and even Florida.............. they do not just support bikes or quads.

[1BLKJP]

Thank you Sandee for the update on the issues that ORBA has helped us with in AZ. I have looked through their site several times and have found nothing on most of this, so it is nice to see some of the behind the scenes efforts that they have been in on with AZ.

[skruize]

ORBA does not just support "sand"................. Take a look at the dealers/business that are supporting ORBA. How many do you see from the 4x4 community? NOT MANY. If we don't support ORBA, why would we expect ORBA to support us?

ORBA is different from BRC or United in that they will step into LOCAL issues where BRC and United tend to deal with more national land use issues.

What ORBA has done for 4-wheeling........... WITHOUT OUR SUPPORT.
Saved thousands of acres of the OHV area at the Cinders Recreation area from being absorbed into the preserve.

Gave the ASA4WDC $2500.00 cash to fight the Pygmy Owl issue and pay for FOIA's.

Have written numerous letters in our support to warn off a closure or action.

Have fought extremely hard for the Glamis Dunes......... this pursuit was not ORBA alone but a combination of groups working together.

Helped on the Jawbreaker Appeal.

Fight for 4x4 cause and rights in D.C. They have a lobbyist and numerous top legislative bodies that support our rights.

Have written very substansive responses to ALL the Draft EIS plans out from both BLM and F/S.

Have sent attorney staff to Arizona to attend scoping meetings on our behalf. The original F/S EIS regarding "Cross Country Travel" would have gotten us into a heap of problems had ORBA attorney not written a very substansive report noting what they "could NOT do". We WON.

Have sponsored trips to D.C. and helped with ASA4WDC land use staff expenses.

I was recently asked by BLM Director Clarke to write a proposal refering to a "Organized Casual Use" classification for the BLM CFR's/Manual. ORBA readily offered help the minute I called for help or guidence.

These are just a few of the issues ORBA has specifically helped the 4x4 community in Arizona. They are working towards "business discounts" at specific stores and a "medical plan" for small businesses.

Hunter is not currently an ORBA member............... he fell on some tough times and I have pursued the AzVJC to dig into their pockets to fund Hunters yearly membership. ................ Not much luck. Have approx. $250.00 of $1,000.00. He certainly deserves our support. I know he's cut many of you a "deal".

I will truthfully be surprised if any "reports of ORBA actions" will encourage our business to join in the fight............. the apathy within 4x4 is tremendous. Hopefully we don't lose everything before they realize the lose. Irregardless of our apathy, ORBA has stepped up to the block each and every time I've called for help.

They have done TONS of help for 4x4 in California, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah, and even Florida.............. they do not just support bikes or quads.

HI Sandee,

Thanks for the update.

Scott

[KURT]

I sent a letter, a while back, to ADOT suggesting a specialized license plate for off road enthusiasts. Something earthtone with a MT tire track printed accross it!
Think of the cache it would have, if getting one had to be accompanied by a tech inspection at the DMV! (Or selected 3rd party tech inspectors.) :D

[Y2K-XJ]

Now I realy think your on to something with that!
People that wheel often should have a designated liscense plate.
It should cost more of course but the money would go towards the same as the current "permits", plus whatever else is needed..

I don't think I would gripe about $50-60.00 per year + standard regestration for a OHV plate! wow that already sounds official OHV Plate LOL. I'm all for it :D

[Sandee McCullen]

I sent a letter, a while back, to ADOT suggesting a specialized license plate for off road enthusiasts. Something earthtone with a MT tire track printed accross it!
Think of the cache it would have, if getting one had to be accompanied by a tech inspection at the DMV! (Or selected 3rd party tech inspectors.) :D

There are strides to build for a "Copper Sticker", similar to the "Green Sticker" in California that all motorized "off-highway" vehicles, bikes & quads will have to have. This money will go towards OHV projects and law enforcement. This combined with the Gas Tax money and the RTP money for OHV should bring us approximately $7,000,000.00 - $10,000,000.00 per year in Arizona for OHV only. Most likely this "OHV sticker" will be through the DMV. This is not a "permit" ........... it is simply a "tax" for OHV. I'm sure there will be *****ing beyond belief when this is enacted but it will be a done deal within the next year or two. We need to "support our own"...........

[skruize]

Sandee,

I bought my quad when I was living up in Montana this past winter. It has a street legal plate as well as an OHV sticker. We had a choice of doing either or. I got both as it gave me the most flexibility in where to ride.

I'm getting ready to change over to AZ plates this month. I would have no problem getting an OHV sticker in addition to my plate if it would go towards promoting an OHV trail system.

Scott

[k7mto]

We had to have OHV stickers in Oregon and the fines were hefty if caught on FS, BLM, etc. land without one. They were only $10 for a 2 year term. They weren't handled by the Oregon DMV (thank goodness), rather they were sold at various vendor locations (recreational vehicle dealers, sporting good stores, etc.). All proceeds went directly into state OHV funds. I hope they implement something similar here as well.

[skruize]

Why doesn't Troy ever post his own thoughts here on the board? Are you paid to be his "official spokesperson"?

Rick

Rick,

I resigned this morning so you'll just have to wait for Troy to respond for now on.

:D

Scott Kruize

[Rick Latrani]

Now I realy think your on to something with that!
People that wheel often should have a designated liscense plate.
It should cost more of course but the money would go towards the same as the current "permits", plus whatever else is needed..

I don't think I would gripe about $50-60.00 per year + standard regestration for a OHV plate! wow that already sounds official OHV Plate LOL. I'm all for it :D


Why should I have to pay extra to wheel on land when I pay enough in taxes already? :rolleyes:

[Hackle]

Because the greenies pay taxes also (the ones that work) and feel we should not be able to use that land. The OHV funds are ear marked for OHV projects and trail improvements.
Jim F.

[Sandee McCullen]

Why should I have to pay extra to wheel on land when I pay enough in taxes already? :rolleyes:

I don't believe anyone has said we "have to pay extra to wheel on land.......". The permit system BLM is looking at is a "no fee" permit. The issue is: HOW do they implement this? HOW do we get a permit"? HOW can they descriminate against a select group AND "WHAT" will it solve?

All they are wanting to do is "MANAGE". If WE don't want to police or manage ourselves they will do it for us. That most likely ends up in closures because they cannot "manage" without our help............ all they hear from OHV is whinning about their rights. It's OUR fellow recreationists that are rock stacking (paving) trails thusly changing the water shed or eliminating the watering holes. It is OUR guys making by-passes which destroys the wash banks or surrounding resources. It is OUR guys that leave oil spills to soak into the water tables thusly contaminating the water supply. It's about time WE start looking at the mandates the land managers have to abide by and what impacts WE ARE DOING............

Whine all you want about "I pay taxes"............ there will be an OHV sticker within the next year or two so you'll be "paying more". ALL OHV's will be REQUIRED to have one (just like California, Utah, Montana, and numerous other states). These guys all "pay taxes" also. These dollars, along with the Gas Tax Money and some help from Federal Highways money simply help OHV to "take care of themselves". These funds will pay for maintenance; trailheads; SIGNS; and the addition of "new" trails by helping to pay for the NEPA requirements OUR GOVERNMENT requires. Most of the "green" rules we have to abide by today are a result of the GREEN community........... If we sit back and "whine about OUR RIGHTS" they simply keep striding along "taking more" from us each day............. More Wilderness; more Wild & Scenic Rivers; less Forests; more Green Peace and Forest Guardians or Sky Island Alliance; The Nature Conservancy and most of all Center for Biological Diversity that files a law suit each time we even start to win an issue.

If public lands are closed to our use because our own ABUSE all we're left with is private land and that DOES mean money out of our pockets............. $35.00 - $40.00 each time we want to wheel. Many times these parks are closed during weekdays which eliminates those that enjoy their sport during the weekdays. Since there is less than 10% of private lands in Arizona it means we MIGHT be lucky to get the Indian Nations to allow us OHV recreation room. Right.......... they are pushing to not allow us to "Drive by Pectroglyphs because we're destroying their aura with the land". IF they do allow OHV you can bet your boots it won't be FREE.

Best just "join in"............ we're living in 2004, not 1980.

[skruize]

I don't believe anyone has said we "have to pay extra to wheel on land.......". The permit system BLM is looking at is a "no fee" permit. The issue is: HOW do they implement this? HOW do we get a permit"? and HOW can they descriminate against a select group?

All they are wanting to do is "MANAGE". If WE don't want to police or manage ourselves they will do it for us. That most likely ends up in closures because they cannot "manage" without our help............ all they hear from OHV is whinning about their rights. It's OUR fellow recreationists that are rock stacking (paving) trails thusly changing the water shed or eliminating the watering holes; making by-passes which destroys the wash banks or surrounding resources; leave oil spills to soak into the water tables thusly contaminating the water supply. It's about time WE start looking at the mandates the land managers have to abide by and what impacts WE ARE DOING............

Whine all you want about "I pay taxes"............ there will be an OHV sticker within the next year or two. ALL OHV's will be REQUIRED to have one (just like California, Utah, Montana, and numerous other states). These guys all "pay taxes" also. If public lands are closed to our use because our own ABUSE it all we're left with is private land and that DOES mean money out of our pockets............. $35.00 - $40.00 each time we want to wheel. Many times these parks are closed during weekdays which eliminates those that enjoy their sport during the weekdays. Best just "join in"............ we're living in 2004, not 1980.


It would be nice if an arrangement could be worked out with the STL people to include them in the OHV sticker program. That way people would not need a separate permit for STL.

As for ORBA, the greenies have had the court system all to themselves for far too long. The businesses that contribute to ORBA help pay the lawyers necessary to get things accomplished in court. This is where we can play hardball with them. I will try to spend my money at businesses that are members. Hopefully more of the local ATV businesses sign on too.

Regards,

Scott Kruize

[Hackle]

Scott the State Land Department does not like change!
As the Copper sticker comes close to a vote we will all need to contact our State Reps and Senators to help. Get your pens and paper ready.
This is part of the reason I became a Precint committeman. I can and will be able to count on the the votes of my two state reps and one state senator for this.
It is not that much work I wish we could get more OHV people to be Precinct Committe members.
If anyone needs more info on this I am willing to help you out.
My parents were very proud to know my name would be on the ballot this year :)
Jim F.

[Sandee McCullen]

Sandee,

It would be nice if an arrangement could be worked out with the STL people to include them in the OHV sticker program. That way people would not need a separate permit for STL.

Scott

We're working on it................. the State Land Commissioner "doesn't recognize OHV Recreation" so there will be a fight there but the permit system will allow for "portions" to go to the managing land agencies...... our proposal is to allow the OHV Sticker to replace the Recreation Permit for OHV...... just haven't figured out the dollar amount yet. The non-motorized don't make any effort to obtain a permit now so it shouldn't make a huge difference in the end result............

I'll keep everyone up to date as this issue continues.

[ChrisK]

It would be nice if an arrangement could be worked out with the STL people to include them in the OHV sticker program. That way people would not need a separate permit for STL.

Now that would appeal to a lot of people. Instead of having to get 2 seperate permits (BLM and state) roll it in to one all-inclussive permit and make it easy to get like at your local DMV and many more people would get one. Better yet, make it MANDATORY for certain vehicles (trucks, SUVs, Jeeps, etc) that are capable of using the trails to get one. Those that wheel but never get permits would be forced to pay up for once. That way, rather than having 5% of the ORV users paying $50 extra per year, 100% of the vehicles would pay only $10 extra instead and the state and BLM would make much more money. More money for the state and BLM to use to manage the trails. I haven't gotten my new state permit yet because it is just not as easy as I'd like (and I'm pretty lazy too). No, I won't wheel until I get one.

ah, just my random ramblings. Maybe I should actually get the Jeep out of the garage every now and then.

Chris

[FlexyXJ]

Rick,

I resigned this morning so you'll just have to wait for Troy to respond for now on.

:D

Scott Kruize


Its good to have you back scott.... :D LOL, Do you know where I can get a good cage????? :D


Joe

[Sandee McCullen]

Its good to have you back scott.... :D LOL, Do you know where I can get a good cage????? :D


Joe

Check out Hunter Off-Road [hunteroffroad@aol] or Desert Fabrication [desertfab@msn.com]............. both do a great job, know their specs and will be reasonable.

[Sandee McCullen]

Now that would appeal to a lot of people. Instead of having to get 2 seperate permits (BLM and state) roll it in to one all-inclussive permit and make it easy to get like at your local DMV and many more people would get one. Better yet, make it MANDATORY for certain vehicles (trucks, SUVs, Jeeps, etc) that are capable of using the trails to get one. Those that wheel but never get permits would be forced to pay up for once. That way, rather than having 5% of the ORV users paying $50 extra per year, 100% of the vehicles would pay only $10 extra instead and the state and BLM would make much more money. More money for the state and BLM to use to manage the trails. I haven't gotten my new state permit yet because it is just not as easy as I'd like (and I'm pretty lazy too). No, I won't wheel until I get one.

ah, just my random ramblings. Maybe I should actually get the Jeep out of the garage every now and then. Chris


When we really get down to the brass tacks of working out the details I'd like to get a bunch of recreationists to sit at the table for a few hours and bang around some "HOW TOO's".............. this OHV sticker will be for ALL vehicles that travel OFF PAVEMENT.

I need to stay out of meetings for awhile and get some "wheel'n" in. Found a path to connect two trails to make a loop in the FJ area. Staying on "approved" state trust land so Tucson BLM is NOT happy!!! :) :)

[ChrisK]

When we really get down to the brass tacks of working out the details I'd like to get a bunch of recreationists to sit at the table for a few hours and bang around some "HOW TOO's".............. this OHV sticker will be for ALL vehicles that travel OFF PAVEMENT.

I need to stay out of meetings for awhile and get some "wheel'n" in. Found a path to connect two trails to make a loop in the FJ area. Staying on "approved" state trust land so Tucson BLM is NOT happy!!! :) :)
Oooo... I bet BLM is not happy about that. Knowing them though, they'll just close one of the existing trails to stop the loop.

as far as the sticker goes, like i said, it would be nice to see it mandatory for all vehicles CAPABLE of off pavement travel. Again, more money for the state to use to manage the trails.

BTW - with all the bypasses out there, has anyone thought of "rehabilitating" these? In other words, with BLM's permission, transplant plants from other areas and remove all traces of the illegal bypasses?

[BRUZR]

BTW - with all the bypasses out there, has anyone thought of "rehabilitating" these? In other words, with BLM's permission, transplant plants from other areas and remove all traces of the illegal bypasses?

Chris, what good would that do? The idiots that create the bypasses because they aren't capable of doing the trail in the first place will just recreate the bypass... You have to find a way to permanently BLOCK the bypasses. Sandee knows better than I, but I would think the agencies would be against this because "it would alter the waterflow" or something to that effect.

[Sandee McCullen]

Oooo... I bet BLM is not happy about that. Knowing them though, they'll just close one of the existing trails to stop the loop.

as far as the sticker goes, like i said, it would be nice to see it mandatory for all vehicles CAPABLE of off pavement travel. Again, more money for the state to use to manage the trails.

BTW - with all the bypasses out there, has anyone thought of "rehabilitating" these? In other words, with BLM's permission, transplant plants from other areas and remove all traces of the illegal bypasses?

There are numerous ways to go with the OHV sticker.......... several states already have one working. Some are directed through a special governor appointed council; some through DMV; some through State Parks; some are for 4x4's, quads & dirt bikes; some for those that go 'off-highway'; etc etc........ Some split with the greenies........ (We WON'T), at least not to the point the money is used for closing access. All use part of the money for law enforcement............ Arizona Game & Fish want it ALL for law enforcement. Soooooooooo, you can see there are hundreds of issues to wade through before we come to an acceptable plan for all.

Re "rehabilitating" by-passes:............. In my proposal regarding "NO PERMITS" for the technical trails I suggested WE would encourage our people to adopt these trails. In the new BLM Adopt-A-Trail program there is a requirement to help BLM "monitor" trails. This may not be on all trails and all it consists of is a "picture point". BLM will set a certain spot they want to "watch or monitor". Once or twice each year the OHV group that adopted the trail or area would take pictures of the same spot, same distance, same time of year. These pictures would be evaluated by the agency specialist. All pictures and reports would be on file to defend against the greenies trying to claim "degredation". "Rehabilitating" already falls within the Adopt-a-Trail criteria under maintainance or simply "helping the agency". I'm sure some of this will be asked of us. Some years ago when we lost the exit from Charleau Gap in the Saddlebrook area, Game & Fish, F/S and ASLD worked together to get us a mile of trail moved outside the perimeter of Saddlebrook but we had to "relocate" ALL cactus to the outside edge of the trail. All cactus had to stay in the exact same direction to the sun and had to be at the same level in the ground. Don't think that wasn't interesting to do!!!

BLM is slowing coming around............... they have allowed us to put up signs (ie the sign at Annihilator noting "By-passes will close our trails". I'm trying to find someone to make a sign for the top of Lower Terminator stating "no motorized access beyond this point....... riparian area" AND they have given us permission to put "winch points" on several of the technical trails.

We CAN partner with the agencies if we try. Yes, the greenies have a lot of control over the management agencies but so do we....... IF WE USE IT. Numbers count and "actions" count.

I truly feel we'll eventually "get there"................. sometimes it's unbelievingly SLOW and frustrating but the agencies are seeing the OHV community 'trying' to educate and manage their own. Bringing the massive cleanups and cleaning materials to the front page have made a huge impact with the agencies. As soon as the temperatures cool down again we'll have to get out and de-rock and clean a number of our trails........

Long story that never ends...........

[Linda]

It always amazes me the some people will complain about the costs of permits, club dues, etc. -- which add up to practically nothing compared to what they sink into their 4x4s on a yearly basis.

What exactly is the price of being able to have access to our current trails, but also trails that haven't been discovered yet? Right now its free, but in the future we know it's going to cost in permits, lawsuits, and perhaps, civil disobedience. It's our sport and we have to pay for it one way or another.

[ChrisK]

Chris, what good would that do? The idiots that create the bypasses because they aren't capable of doing the trail in the first place will just recreate the bypass... You have to find a way to permanently BLOCK the bypasses. Sandee knows better than I, but I would think the agencies would be against this because "it would alter the waterflow" or something to that effect.
Thats like saying, "dang, somebody just kicked in my door and stole my stereo. I shouldn't rebuild the door because they are probably just going to do it again". You rebuild the door and then put in a better lock.
Rehabilitating the bypasses will take them back to their original watershed and look more natural than just leaving the ugly scars. THEN, block them with boulders to keep wannabees out.

[BRUZR]

Thats like saying, "dang, somebody just kicked in my door and stole my stereo. I shouldn't rebuild the door because they are probably just going to do it again". You rebuild the door and then put in a better lock.
Rehabilitating the bypasses will take them back to their original watershed and look more natural than just leaving the ugly scars. THEN, block them with boulders to keep wannabees out.


Yeah, what you said... :D

That's what I meant, not just blocking it.

[Linda]

In my proposal regarding "NO PERMITS" for the technical trails I suggested WE would encourage our people to adopt these trails. In the new BLM Adopt-A-Trail program there is a requirement to help BLM "monitor" trails. This may not be on all trails and all it consists of is a "picture point". BLM will set a certain spot they want to "watch or monitor". Once or twice each year the OHV group that adopted the trail or area would take pictures of the same spot, same distance, same time of year. These pictures would be evaluated by the agency specialist. All pictures and reports would be on file to defend against the greenies trying to claim "degredation". "Rehabilitating" already falls within the Adopt-a-Trail criteria under maintainance or simply "helping the agency". I'm sure some of this will be asked of us......

Sandee,
Can you explain why technical trails should not require a permit? What does trail adoption have to do with not having a permit? Did I miss something? :confused:

[roger]

Rehabilitating the bypasses will take them back to their original watershed and look more natural than just leaving the ugly scars. THEN, block them with boulders to keep wannabees out.

Not all bypasses are easier than that which was bypassed. Sometimes they are more difficult - created by people with well-equipped rigs who are seeking more challenge. We have to stop pointing all of our fingers at the wannabe/newbie/rookie/under-equipped folks and point some of them at the experienced/well-built folks.

I can think of a couple trails where a wash embankment was damaged for the sake of a more difficult line. These particular cases were NOT caused by wannabees. Based on Sandy's recent posts about "trail abuse" and "leave no trace", this ain't gonna cut it no more.

(Note - this is not directed at Chris but at everyone.)

-Roger

[Woody]

Not all bypasses are easier than that which was bypassed. Sometimes they are more difficult - created by people with well-equipped rigs who are seeking more challenge. We have to stop pointing all of our fingers at the wannabe/newbie/rookie/under-equipped folks and point some of them at the experienced/well-built folks.

I can think of a couple trails where a wash embankment was damaged for the sake of a more difficult line. These particular cases were NOT caused by wannabees. Based on Sandy's recent posts about "trail abuse" and "leave no trace", this ain't gonna cut it no more.

(Note - this is not directed at Chris but at everyone.)

-Roger

Excellent point, Roger.

A good example of this can be found on Lower Terminator. There are at least 5-6 "obstacles" that have been newly created. All of these spots on the banks of the wash, not in the bottom where we have always stayed. These were created by people who should have been on trails like Anaconda, Annihilator, and 6th day. Way overbuilt rigs on easy trails.

Apparently, newbies aren't the only ones who need to be educated in the proper use of an OHV

Rick

[Sandee McCullen]

Sandee,
Can you explain why technical trails should not require a permit? What does trail adoption have to do with not having a permit? Did I miss something? :confused:

I can explain "why a permit system would be impossible to implement"!

First of all:
What would a permit gain? What the agencies want to eliminate are the "non-qualified" vehicles from entering. They want the rock stacking to stop; making by-passes to stop; clean up oil or fluid spills and in simple terms......... LEAVE NO TRACE. This is an "honesty" or "honorable" issue or a "responsible recreationist" issue.

Would a permit "tech" a vehicle or do the drivers have to tech their vehicle before obtaining a permit?

Who would issue the permits and where? For Florence Junction do you want to drive to Tucson each time you want to do a technical trail? (4.5 +) Those from north.......... do they want to go to the Phoenix Field Office BEFORE Friday afternoon at 4:15 p.m.?

What about the times a group finish one technical trail in early time and want to do another trail? How do they do that?

Do we want ALL technical trails to be closed except during events such as Jamboree?

BLM does not, nor would, make funds available to have permits available at local shops/stations/etc...........

Again............. "what purpose does a permit" do for either the recreationist or agency?

Why would we feel the technically modified vehicles should be penalized because the non-modified recreationists have abused these trails?

If "education signs" are posted this gives the wheeler the knowledge about the trail and what equipment is needed........... this satisfies the agency and the insurance. Building "limiting obstacles" (now being called "rookie filters") will help a lot. These projects along with "honesty" and "integrety" will do much more than a permit.

How much resources have been saved within Bulldog Wash since they gated it?............. NONE that I can see. The degradation is worse than ever and FS has absolutely no way to know who was in there or on what day or month.

I guess my philosophy is to allow us to "take care of our own". If this doesn't work it may end up to either GATING everything and requiring permits or outright closures. There's no way any of the agencies have the dollars for fencing and gates to secure both ingress and egress of all the technical trails.

Just my $.03......................

[Sandee McCullen]

Not all bypasses are easier than that which was bypassed. Sometimes they are more difficult - created by people with well-equipped rigs who are seeking more challenge. We have to stop pointing all of our fingers at the wannabe/newbie/rookie/under-equipped folks and point some of them at the experienced/well-built folks.

I can think of a couple trails where a wash embankment was damaged for the sake of a more difficult line. These particular cases were NOT caused by wannabees. Based on Sandy's recent posts about "trail abuse" and "leave no trace", this ain't gonna cut it no more.

(Note - this is not directed at Chris but at everyone.)

-Roger

You are right.................. to a point. Most of the by-passes are made to simply by-pass a difficult obstacle. The "side routes or obstacles" may not necessarily be by-passes but we ALL need to take a look at our "responsibilities" on the trail.................. we cannot break down wash banks; we cannot destroy vegetation; we cannot leave oil or fluids behind;......... we can however do "side obstacles" so long as they are within the parameters of the trails itself.

This all comes down to "RESPONSIBLE RECREATION" and sometimes there just is not enough of that happening today............