Help!! Jeep Rollover at Martinez Cabin.

[mookie]

Ok,

Here it is again... I need a Jeep Club Resuce. I was with a friend of mine on the Martinez Cabin loop and rolled at the wash. Yes you know the one. I had to leave some gear behind but I did get a ride out. (Thanks Paul, Paul, and Nancy)

There is some body damage but I think it will be driveable. I need to get out there ASAP so I'm getting a ride leaving at 9:00am on the 12th with Dr. Rock and his Rubi with winch. I will probably need another winch and possibly a snach block.

I think i will need a few more hands. If you can help please call me anytime at:

Mookie - 480-694-8110

We will be on CB Channel 4 and FRS 4. On the Martinez Cabin Loop tomorrow! Please Help.

Thanks!

[Huck]

Hey there Mookster,
I'll be there at 9:00AM sharp to help. If anyone wants to get a hold of me, call 602-380-7264. All extra hands are appreciated. Also, I'll call Tom Martinez, as he's off on Fridays. Maybe I can talk him into bringin out the 41 Willy and that will give us another winch to use. Let me know what equipment we might need for recovery i.e. shovels etc.. Also, don't forget to get some more ATF as who knows how much of yours is leaking out tonight.
Okeli-Dokeli there, I'll see you in the morning with boots on and a fat cup o joe.
Huck

[jeepsonly]

Wish I could help but I'm not available for a few days.

May I suggest some paper towels and plenty of biodegradeable cleansing solution to cleanup any spills? You're probably already planning on doing that but I thought I'd mention it. It's the responsible thing to do and remember that we might have some enviro-extremists as moles in our club who would check the area later for picture proof we're "destroying the earth".

[k7mto]

DOH - had my dates mixed up and thought this was for tomorrow am. Just spoke with Mookie and they're on their way out there now. Asked him to get some pictures!

[k7mto]

Inquiring minds want to know (at least I do)

I hope you got there with the recovery crew before any undesirables did, and I hope the damage was minimal.

[Huck]

Happy Days..... Here's the quick recap on Yesterday's Event:
The Mookie Rescue and Retrival Team was successful in its attempt to extricate Mookie. I'll give some brief details here, as I need sleep (still none since yesterday). I'm sure there will be more info from the principal players and quite a few whoops pics.
Four club members showed up yesterday, all winch ready and we ambled out in the 10:00 hour. By the time the main group reached the XJ, we had already spoken to several folks who had to turn back because of this Jeep laying on its side in the middle of the wash. Hmmmm.....
I hooked up my winch using club member's tree straps and a snatch block. With help from the other folks (lifting on the roof side) we got it on all four wheels and then slowly let off off the winch, while he was pulled forward off of the large berm.
We attempted to clean up the area as best we could, with Steve spending as much time as possible stacking rocks ;) (just kidding around here folks) The B pillar is shot, but the jeep drove all the way home and then some.
Most of the other club members continued into the run, while Steve, Mookie and myself headed back for safety and babysitting duties. On our way out Steve's CJ developed an ignition problem. After a few stops and some time spent trouble shooting, I ended up strapping him out.
So, we were a sight to see heading down the 60 around 8:30 last night. Me doing 70 with Steve strapped to my bumper and Mookie following in his XJ-missing 2 windows and having some nice B pillar damage. All in all it was a beautiful day- we all made it home and you just have to see the Canyon starting to bloom. I even only managed to rip off one part of the CJ leaving a light off of the Hunt Hwy. You've got a welder, right Steve?
For those who were wondering, even Mookie's wallet was where he left it. We got out there in enough time and to my knowledge nothing was missing. Its nice to have people to count on when you're down. The AZVJC came through with about five hours notice.

[OlneyJeeps]

Not to self: even when going on "short/easy" run bring spare parts box; better yet (expecially for some low dollar yet extremely crucail parts which you have 6 spares of because they are known to fail (although this is first I have had to totally fail: usually just makes moter idle like crap / fail emissions) ... like say.... IGNITION BOX ($%#%#@$!!!)) just drill a couple of holes in fender skirt and bolt the spare right next to the primary!
update:
1: Installed new ignition box (motocrap) and fired right up
2: looking for heavier tube for spring pivot support

[mookie]

Heya!

Thanks to everyone! Huck, Steve, Kent, Tom and all the others I missed. I am home with a wounded XJ. Thanks for the call Matt! Sorry about all the troubles Steve. You really took one for the team. Once again the AZVJC got me out of trouble with less than 5 hours notice. THANKS! Here's some pics.


http://www.killingtimeproductions.com/jeep/roll



!!Warning!!
Big Photos!


Mookie

[k7mto]

Careful, Mookie. This is how reputations (or worse, nicknames) are born ;) Sorry I couldn't be there for this one, but if you put out Mookie Rescue and Retrieval Team shirts, I want one for rescue #1.

Recapping our discussion, if you can't afford a winch yet, get yourself a come-a-long. I've used them before to get the wheels back on the ground when a winch was unavailable. Takes some elbow grease, but beats leaving the rig in the desert.

Thanks for the pics. Those last three remind me a few trips home from the bars back in the day :D

[vtchopper]

Thanks for the pics.. looks like its time to cut the roof off...:D
Jason M

[Heywood]

Are you the same Mookie who sunk his Jeep a while back and needed rescue?

If so, I think you should wheel with friends.

[highjeeps]

That link does not complete for me. Does it work for anybody else?

http://www.killingtimeproductions.com/jeep/roll

[Heywood]

Originally posted by highjeeps
That link does not complete for me. Does it work for anybody else?

http://www.killingtimeproductions.com/jeep/roll

Nope

[Huck]

I talked with Mookie this morning. All of his hosting sites are down for technical updating. He expects this rollover site, as well as the rest of them to be up and running this afternoon. I know that I tried to download a couple of pics to prove to my boss and Doctor that I was really being a good Samaritan on Friday (and not having any fun taking pictures of me winching and towing jeeps ;) ) I need to get my photos developed and put on disc, because we were a sight to see.
By the way, that was the same Mookie who sunk my old truck not but three weeks after I sold it to him. Of all of the beating I did in that truck, I never drowned it. Mookie was with someone else on this event. That's how he made it out of the Canyon before dawn on Friday. Its just his buddy didn't have a winch or recovery gear. I feel for my buddy, as some of us having been wheeling for quite some time. This gives us innate experience as to what obstacles to avoid or even how to approach them. I've had my share of incidents, but I learned much earlier on about good wheeling techniques. Mookie is learning, but I tell you he is learning through some tough lessons.
Huck

[Marty]

Glad to hear you guys made it out. I was the guy in the blue TJ that pulled you forward. Any excuse to get out 4-wheelin when I'm supposed to be at work. Tom, Kent and myself finished Martinez and were out by 8:00. If you need any help geting back on the road. I might have some time to help out.
Marty

[KnetAZ]

FYI on Martinez Canyon. All the rains have changed up the washes considerably. The old lines aren't there in a lot of cases, and the new lines take some work. If you haven't run it in a while, it is worth doing again. Was a little more challenging.

[highjeeps]

Originally posted by mookie
Heya!

Thanks to everyone! Huck, Steve, Kent, Tom and all the others I missed. I am home with a wounded XJ. Thanks for the call Matt! Sorry about all the troubles Steve. You really took one for the team. Once again the AZVJC got me out of trouble with less than 5 hours notice. THANKS! Here's some pics.


http://www.killingtimeproductions.com/jeep/roll



!!Warning!!
Big Photos!


Mookie

So when do we get to see those photos? The link still does not work.:confused:

[OlneyJeeps]

Mookie... thought about posting pics in your gallery (AZVJC)?

[katvans]

Hey Mookie

Huck told me to check out your pics. I did and it looks like you are having fun with this 4- wheelin stuff.

It might be time for a cage and a soft top.

Rich:D

[mookie]

Heya,

Sorry about the delay with photos. My servers are still being updated. I haven't figured out what to do yet about the damage. I'm going to try to get a few quotes this week and see what the deal is.


Mookie

[Joe-CJ7]

When are the links going to work for the pictures?

jk

[angryopie]

Mookie is the Man! I definitely think some Mookie Recovery Team shirts are in order. Give me a call Mook, and I'll give you my friend Josh's number, he might be able to hook you up with the repairs.

later champ!

Opie
www.angryopie.com

[roger]

Originally posted by Huck
By the time the main group reached the XJ, we had already spoken to several folks who had to turn back because of this Jeep laying on its side in the middle of the wash. Hmmmm.....

Yeah, hmmmm. If that's that spot I think it is, I've never seen that washed out road in a passable state. The trail has always been either up the middle of the wash over some rocks or way to the right for the easy line both followed by a squeeze between two big bolders. Has something changed to make people prefer to attempt the washed-out road?

-Roger

[highjeeps]

Originally posted by roger
Yeah, hmmmm. If that's that spot I think it is, I've never seen that washed out road in a passable state. The trail has always been either up the middle of the wash over some rocks or way to the right for the easy line both followed by a squeeze between two big bolders. Has something changed to make people prefer to attempt the washed-out road?

-Roger

That part of the trail was wide enough for a jeep years ago (I'm thinking 6 or 7) , but after one of those big monsoons washed out the road, the only way to go (except for ATVs, bikes, and peds) has been through the wash. I've contemplated trying it (the too skinny route), but didn't have the nerve.

[Huck]

FYI- the website is up and the photos are available for viewing.

[FlexyXJ]

:mad: OK....I may be jumping the gun here, but did you yahoos even clean up the mess that you left there???? I dont see any pictures of it. I am going to Martinez this weekend and I really hope that you guys cleaned this up. I dont mean throwing dirt on it and COVERING it up, I mean CLEANING it up. If you did clean it up, than good for everyone. If you didnt clean it up, than this is a PERFECT example of NON- responsible jeepers. Not good in the public eye. Not good for all of the people who are fighting to keep martinez open. However, those are some nice pictures showing your plate and the oil spill...Nice. Last time We were in martinez, we cleaned up from another yahoo that had flopped and didnt clean up ther mess. Judging by the amount of it, I would bet $$$ Its still there next weekend. I hope not though....


FlexyXJ

P.S. Flopping your stuff is not all that cool when you still have sway bars on it. :rolleyes:

[flxy_tj]

The road is somewhat in a passable state..... just got to turn right about 6 or so feet in front of where mookie rolled. i made it using that line about a month ago and it still lokked the same in the pics. gets a little hairy but not to bad, it can be done.. I just wanted to try it and it worked... got some video of it but it is not as impressive as I thought it would be.

[OlneyJeeps]

:mad: OK....I may be jumping the gun here, but did you yahoos even clean up the mess that you left there???? I dont see any pictures of it. I am going to Martinez this weekend and I really hope that you guys cleaned this up. I dont mean throwing dirt on it and COVERING it up, I mean CLEANING it up. If you did clean it up, than good for everyone. If you didnt clean it up, than this is a PERFECT example of NON- responsible jeepers. Not good in the public eye. Not good for all of the people who are fighting to keep martinez open. However, those are some nice pictures showing your plate and the oil spill...Nice. Last time We were in martinez, we cleaned up from another yahoo that had flopped and didnt clean up ther mess. Judging by the amount of it, I would bet $$$ Its still there next weekend. I hope not though....

FlexyXJ

P.S. Flopping your stuff is not all that cool when you still have sway bars on it. :rolleyes:

Ok ... not to start anonther war of words about responsibility. Before you start throwing accusations around, lets look at the facts:
1: the group of yahoos who went on the rescue mission had nothing to do with the rolloveree other than he was a club member / jeeper
2: Said yahoos did so on very short notice (original post was 4:55am... group was organized around 8am) taking time from work at their own expense and travelling great distances (the majority from the west side)
3: Because operation was organized on such short notice and at the time Mr. Mookie left the accident scene there was no indication of environmental damage, the recovery team was not prepared for clean up
4: This being noted, said yahoos with a primary objective of recovery and prevention of further damage which they effected while causing no further damage (note boulder used as pivot was protected from scarring by tree trunk protector and any "stacked" rocks (done in jest for photo op only) were unstacked).
5. While an effort to contain spillage was made, because of unforseen conditions at the time, short of taking a straw and sucking the oil off of the small pool of water and spitting into a contaner, there was the small ammount of oil which had leaked left at the scene. There have been discussions of a trip and methods of removing any remaining damage, however other commitments (or, in my case Jeep is still waiting for repairs to be effected )have prevented an organized return to the scene.

As you are planning a trip, I duly nominate you to head an enviromental cleanup team charged with the task of returning the site to its beautiful natural state.

Although you have seen pictures and have and far more knowlege of situation than said yahoos did when they dropped everything and left on a moments notice to rescue a person in need, for more suggestions of possible equipment / supplies feel free to call me (second leuitenant yahoo) and, better yet, send a call to others who have visited site since accident for report of condition.

[FlexyXJ]

Hmmm.. I find it rather hard to believe that noone knew of any spillage, scince in one of the posts it was brought up to bring ATF because it was spilling out everywhere. And you, sir , must have never been involved in a situation like this before, just due to the statement of "taking a straw and sucking the oil up" umm, I dont know about you, but I know there are quite a few VJC'ers that carry pig pads or some other type of organic cleaner just for these reasons. Yes, I applaud everyone who went on such a short notice, but I am not a greenie or anything like that, just someone who is responsible enough to be prepared to clean up their own mess when this happens. As for the strap....I I may mis-understand this but I HIGHLY doubt you put it there to protect the rock..?? Clear me up if I took this wrong.


FlexyXJ

[FlexyXJ]

After going back and looking at the pictures again...... 1) You used the tree saver as a snatch point, I dont see why you are so proud that you avoided damaging the rock by using a tree saver. 2) There is more than a SMALL amount of oil there my friend. 3) I have no problem cleaning up the mess.. Just give me an address where I can send the bill, Scince the responsibility is CLEARLY obvious.... Un like the clean up of table mesa, We could not place blame on anyone for the trash, UM, Its pretty clear here.....


FlexyXJ

[jeepsonly]

I just want to point out that some of those extremist environmentalists read this very board/forum and are extreme enough to try and go there with a camera to report to Tucson BLM any wrongdoing. All it takes is a little proof and BAM, area closed. I would bet money on it.

You guys were awesome to go and help out with short notice and at some expense to you. That is hopefully the spirit of the club. But now that there is a possibility of spillage that hasn't been cleaned up, it seems like the person who should step up to take responsibility for cleaning it up is the one who caused it in the first place. It seems to me that Jeep owner should at least post asking for some help.

BTW, this needs to get done asap. We don't want to be on record for being anti-environment and the extremists use stuff like this against us. I'm not kidding - ask Sandee about Tucson BLM.

[OlneyJeeps]

Okay... I'm guilty: I have never been a part of such a recovery and was not prepared (for cleanup or even for mechanical problems I incurred). Being you have, where were you / where have you been (knowing there is likly to be damage which may need to be cleaned)?
I would find it to be much more productive in formulating a plan to make sure cleanup is properly effective than jumping down the throats of those who did step up to the plate and respond on a momemts notice

[OlneyJeeps]

Guilty again: it appears that you did not comprehend a futile attempt to introduce a small poke at levity (save the rock) to keep this from becoming an infighting war.
Review the post: there was no report of oil "spilling out everywhere"; the respondant (who had not seen the sceene) merely made a suggestion as a sollution for what "may" happen. In the haste to get out there, implications may have been overlooked.
As you are so proud to point out what responsible, experienced vjc'ers do (stating they carry the supplies and implying they use at their own expence yet you are ready to "send the bill"), I ask again, where were you / where have you been.
As you are a self proclaimed responsible vjc'er how is it you seem only prepared to accuse and berate a group who (inexperienced and unprepaired as they may have been) did their best to step up to the plate?
Actions speak greater than words.
I as non official representative of those who selflessly dropped everything to help someone in need, I ask: what are you (and other "responsible" vjc'ers capible of doing more than just criticizing )willing to contribute to step up to the plate?

[Heywood]

Guilty again: it appears that you did not comprehend a futile attempt to introduce a small poke at levity (save the rock) to keep this from becoming an infighting war.
Review the post: there was no report of oil "spilling out everywhere"; the respondant (who had not seen the sceene) merely made a suggestion as a sollution for what "may" happen.
As you are so proud to point out what responsible, experienced vjc'ers do (stating they carry the supplies and implying they use at their own expense yet you are ready to "send the bill"), I ask again, where were you / where have you been.
As a self proclaimed responsible vjc'er how is it you seem only prepared to accuse and berate a group who (inexperienced as they may have been) did their best to step up to the plate?
Actions speak greater than words.
I as non official representative of those who selflessly dropped everything to help someone in need, I ask what are you (and other "responsible" vjc'ers capible of doing more than criticizing )willing to contribute to step up to the plate?

I lurk on this board, and post occasionally. From casual observance on this board and the previous Yahoo board, it seems every thread you get involved in you twist around and make it confrontational. I don't think you have been called out personally in any of these flame wars, yet you seem to keep the war going and keep up the name calling. Why don't you chill out, Dude? :rolleyes:

[OlneyJeeps]

I lurk on this board, and post occasionally. From casual observance on this board and the previous Yahoo board, it seems every thread you get involved in you twist around and make it confrontational. I don't think you have been called out personally in any of these flame wars, yet you seem to keep the war going and keep up the name calling. Why don't you chill out, Dude? :rolleyes:

Please review my initial response: merely an attempt to clarify what happened. I concluded the response with a call to action. I try not to throw (or stack) rocks. Following replies were in response to highly critical assesments of our actions and I find it amiss to idlely sit and not answer accusations (as silence is generally interpreted as admission of guilt).
I (as I have in prior replies) once again submit the question: (other than criticize) what are you willing to contribute?

Chilling

[jeepsonly]

Not sure who you're talking to OlneyJeeps but my point was that if there is any oil still left on the ground, Mookie (the one who rolled, right?) should organize a cleanup run or ask for some help. What's in the past is done but if there is something to fix, fix it soon.

I have been on many cleanup runs, including a few for oil spills someone else didn't bother to clean up.

So I guess first of all we need to establish if there is anything to cleanup. If not, it's a moot point anyway. If so, a cleanup run needs to be organized - SOON.

So, is there anything to cleanup from this rollover?

[OlneyJeeps]

back to original reply (today):
"Although you have seen pictures and have and far more knowlege of situation than said yahoos did when they dropped everything and left on a moments notice to rescue a person in need, for more suggestions of possible equipment / supplies feel free to call me (second leuitenant yahoo) and, better yet, send a call to others who have visited site since accident for report of condition."

I had to leave the scene prematurely (was way overdue to be back in town for prior commitment to watch 3 daughters... ended up having to have mother (who had just completed 2 12 hour shifts as emergency room nurse)come across town). My humble inexperience assesment would be that there is probable need for further cleanup. Call me guilty for not emphasizing such a possiblity (oops, wait a second, am I not supposed to be trying to avoid confrontention and "flame throwing")

response to Heywood "yet you seem to keep the war going and keep up the name calling. Why don't you chill out, Dude?": other than referring to myself (inclusive of the group Flexy proclaimed as "yahoo"'s, please enlighten me as to my name calling. I have merely attempted to reply to accusations in as civil a manner as possible (inclusive of admitting guilt of not being experienced / properly prepared ).

still chilling

[FlexyXJ]

a group who (inexperienced and unprepaired as they may have been) did their best




I think this says it all. Hopefully, this turns into a lesson and not a flame war...but I think It has not done any good....and yes, If its still there, I will clean up the mess. Just like I have done for the numerous other "wheelers". Why dont you contact Jim Florence or Sandee and find out where you too, can get some clean up supplies.


Joe

[OlneyJeeps]

Sent PM to Flexy

[Huck]

I've been off the board for a bit and came back to find this mess.
I have few thoughts on what has transpired on this thread. I got a call from Mookie as he got a cell signal after the rollover. He was shaken up, obviously and we discussed the possible extrication of his vehicle that night. After some thought, due to the travel time, late hour, and difficulty of rescue, we opted to post the rescue and get some help. I'm glad we did, as it was nice to have a few heads thinking about and discussing the rescue before the attempt.
The rock was used as a pivot point and I believe it was an excellent use of our natural surroundings. The tree strap did help with the snatch block, but a true lunk head could have just thrown the cable around the rock. Any automatic Jeep that rolls over will most likely leak some ATF. I knew this from past experience and that's why I made sure Mookie had some when we went for the rescue. I brought some old towels (pictured on the winch rope as an energy absorber) to be used to clean up what I thought would be a small pool of tranny fluid. I forgot to bring cat litter and a couple of trash bags. At Mookie's I asked for trash bags, but we got caught up in the moment and took off without them. Our mistake.
I had no idea that Mookie was sitting in a puddle of water. This was a puddle in a rock depression and the ATF is floating on top of it. No one in the group or spectators, had the enough equiptment to absorb all of the water. His tranny took a quart of ATF. Now how much he really leaked was most likely less than that. He has an older well-used XJ, as can be seen by the oil leaks showing on the cross member, I tied off to. I could do nothing about this leak and one may/could assume his tranny was probably not topped off.
I respect my environment, probably more than most. The group did clean up all of the trash from the vehicle, including broken glass. We made an honest attempt to get it all gathered. I'm not an expert and people did discuss a couple ways of cleaning up the area. I was and have been planning an overnight trip with other club members. One objective of this trip was to get back to the area and clean up the residual layer of ATF of of the rock now that the water is gone. I tried to organize this trip with friends for the past two weekends. We may get out there this weekend. If you beat us out there and get the area organized, I thank you.
I, in no way celebrated this accident. I sacrificed my day to help a good friend. I was planning on being back to the office by 2PM that day, not just getting to the scene. (just look at the photos, I was busy in everyone trying to get the rope rigged, then get the battery hooked up, and then get it started-I then spotted Mookie out of the wash, pausing only for a quick photo of the Rubi in action :) ) I ended up missing my Doctor's appointment and ended up fielding several work calls on our way up the Hunt Hwy. I know Steve was very stressed out trying to get home in time for his wife to make her engagement. He had to get back to babysit.
We left the scene in as good as shape as we could get it with what we had. I feel good about that. I don't feel good about any fluid that was left behind. I feel that we rescued the vehicle with NO further damage done to the surrounding area. The rescue went very smoothly and we were able to get him out under his own power.
There's something to be said for the strength of even unibody Jeeps. Mookie was able to drive home, even after rolling his truck. Now, I do smile as I think aobut pulling Steve most of the way through Box Canyon and all the way to North Phoenix. I'm proud of my little Rubicon. I was able to winch someone out of a troubled spot and provide a tow to a vehicle in need. I was thoroughly impressed with my vehicle with the exception of gas mileage. I ended up burning a full tank of gas for the one day rescue.
Rolling a vehicle is a humbling experience. I've been in two rollovers, one of which I was the driver. I know Mookie is embarassed and not proud of what happened. I also know that he had no intention of flipping his Jeep. He had spent several trips exploring that area. I'm not sure how many times, if any he had been on that exact trail. I will not speak for his line choice, but I believe he said he had done that before. I will say that if you have a true rock crawler with the suspension to go with it, there is a rocky line just before where mookie slipped. It looked very doable for the right rig. Mookie had made it thru the squeeze in the trail and it was his right rear wheel that slipped. The way it was explained to me and evidenced by looking at the trail, the road gave away and crumbled under his right rear tire. This took the back end down the slope, which in turn, pulled the front end down and onto its side.
That being said, its never any fun to roll your vehicle (the exception being fully caged vehicles being pushed to there limits). I don't believe Mookie wanted to do this sway bars or not. I know that during the rescue this exact issue of knee jerk replies was discussed. No one in my group of friends is completely irresponsible and no one was planning on just leaving this area a mess.
Now, lets organize a clean up for the South end of the White Tanks. That hands down has been the most disgusting area, I have been wheeling in over the last few years. Anyone going out there should bring an extra bag or two. After living in Flagstaff and hunting for many years, I always pack out more than I bring in. Over time, I have made a positive impact on my environment.
Lesson one,learned for me was to bring some cat litter and some trash bags (that were accidentally forgotten)
Lesson two, be careful of what people assume in this little virtual world of ours.
Leson three, if you want to teach someone a lesson than state the lesson and say learn from your mistake. Sarcasm is a weak attempt to teach a lesson; it is beating around the bush. To state that I bet.... or to challenge someone on self-righteous grounds is WRONG. When anyone has a problem with what someone else is doing than that is the way it should be stated, period. Something like: IMO or you know it could have been handled like this....
Lesson four, People of the AZVJC, who are for the most part out there doing this four wheeling thing for the same basic reasons pick each other apart instead of bring each other together. It seems that at times, the one or two proverbial bad seeds tears this group apart. We are supposed breed comraderie and teach each other responsible ways of wheeling. Now, if we could just play nicely with each other, we would learn more from each other.
That's enough of a soap box for me. I do not mean to inflame or to fan the flame surrounding this issue. I was there, I sweated, and I did my best to help two people. Fault me if you want, but I'll still feel good about helping others.
Huck

[katvans]

Huck

It looks like my first impression of you was right.

Good post.

Rich

[OlneyJeeps]

DITTO

ps. thanks again for the tow (except part about ripping parts off my front end)
now have spare ignition box mounted next to new replacement (that way I can't forget at home)

[KnetAZ]

Hopefully, this turns into a lesson and not a flame war...but I think It has not done any good.

I would agree. I don't think this has done any good so far.

I don’t appreciate your name-calling. It has been my experience that folks don't respond to that well, as we have seen here. All we were trying to do was help.

The "clean-up" issue is a valid topic, though I will tell you that being condescending and calling me names make it hard to focus on that issue. You don't know me well enough to imply that I am irresponsible, unprepared and not a "real" wheeler. I do my best to be safe, responsible, and prepared. That may not be on par with the level you claim to wheel at, but it is (IMHO) better than most wheelers I run into on the trail.

The amount of tranny fluid in the pictures is aprox 1 qt. The Jeep really didn’t need that much once it was righted and started. You may ASSUME that there was more on the ground, but the truth is that the fluid had drained into a puddle, and what you see is the fluid floating on top of the water. Yes, I know that is in way worse, because it has a great ability to spread that way. That was the situation though. The comment about “sipping it up thru a straw” was not because we didn’t know how to clean fluid off of the ground, as you implied, but because we didn’t (and I still don’t) know how to clean tranny fluid off of a 2" deep water puddle.

I am not real familiar with the whole “roll over” thing, I generally try to avoid that, given that I only have made about 10 payments on my Jeep. I don’t think that is uncommon for the majority of Jeepers. If people are going to get upset when we don’t clean up a spill we come upon, answer me this:

What is that pig pad thing you talked about?

What cleaners should be brought along?

How do you handle fluid floating on top of water?

I am generally pretty well informed, but I haven’t seen much info on this. Threads, FAQs, sites, anything that would be informational on this issue?

[OlneyJeeps]

Hindsight is always 20/20; as a relativly new club member I assumed (first oops) that other responsible club members (we did pass a group what was on way out, who also did nothing ) might be in attendance.

enough of that. Time to work on solution (like I origanally posted and suggested that I be contacted about)

Possible "equipment" I would recommend as a means to remove oil includes ingenous method I recently saw: by encasing hair clippings (visit your local hair salon) in used (or new) stockings, tests showed the invention/innovation gathered/contained immense ammounts of oil (forget numbers but was staggering (700-900%) relative to other methods US coast guard and other institutions were using (including multi million dollar containment "nets" and other synthetics). The absorbant capibility is primarily due to the molecular structure/design of hair which cannot be artificially reproduced. Try it at home (small scale).... I did (cleaned up small oil spill in driveway with shedded dog hair... worked gobs better than kitty litter or other "oil absorbant" gravel.
As oil spill needs to be gathered from top of small ammount of standing water (primary element we were unprepared to deal with), this is method I would recommend.

Link to site: http://nctn.hq.nasa.gov/innovation/Innovation64/hair.htm

[Huck]

Steve,
I had no idea about the hair. I've used sand in the past and as I stated in my post, I've used cat litter or oilsorb. The oilsorb is made out of corn cob dust and its quite absorbant. We use to use these in combination to dry up the ball fields back in MO to get the baseball games going in wet weather. The hair in stockings seems interesting enough. I've used the feet in women's stocking to encase my home-made catfish bait and trout candy. The many uses of nylons...... :)
Regarding my plans for this weekend, as I was asked in a PM what I was doing this weekend, will most likely be to head back out there and finish what we started. I'll talk with Mookie and a few of the crew. Is anyone up for camping out under the stars for a night? I figure a little camping and cleaning will/would be good for our souls. Let me know your thoughts.
I like the direction the posts have taken. Through discussion, we will be better prepared for our next (inevitable) disaster. Lets just hope the next one doesn't involve Mookie ;). I don't think any of us is prepared to handle every emergency we might face, but through team work we can help overcome future obstacles together.
Thanks for the positive comments,
Huck

[k7mto]

Interesting. I've heard human hair has two types. Curly hair is actually a straight piece of hair that curls, while straight hair is actually a long straight coil, like a spring. I wonder if the coiled properties is what allows the hair to collect and hold the oil?

I wonder if barber shops/hair salons can give away hair clippings (could be health regulations against it) which we could use to make homemade oil recovery gear? Sounds like they'd work better than pig pads.

[mookie]

Hello,

I haven't been on the site for about a week and I've missed a lot. I know it has been posted that there was an ATF leak. I lost a bit less than 1qt. I didn't lose any oil. Everything I could pick up, I did (Glass, Trash, etc..). I do know however that the small puddle of ATF was in dried up by the next day. I had a friend of mine that went up and did a check up for me the following weekend. If there happens to be a "layer" of atf over the rocks or something I would be more than happy to take care of it with any way possible.

I do not go out jeeping looking to cause trouble or even to be noticed. I have a lot of time when I am in town and I like to make the most of it. I am not happy I rolled it and caused environmental damage. I go to these places for the views and the peace of mind. I try avoid leaving a mark on anything. I take full responsibility for the accident and am willing to deal with the aftermath (spillage, greenies, vjc members). I take my jeep out almost ONCE A WEEK which is a lot more than most and I do expect the problems every once in a while.

Thanks for sticking up for me guys. I know my posts have been few and most have been asking for help. Maybe I should post all the weekly trips I take without incident just so my rep can die down a bit. I've learned a few things the hard way and many have helped. Thanks again VJC.


Mookie

[OlneyJeeps]

It has been my experience they (salons) will gladly give clippings away (especially if you inform of cause). I did my own experiments with and was amazed (so I tinker with everything... next exploit= aircraft solinoids (just a little joke for someone who knows who they are :eek: as I was so impressed that because he went to airplane school he knew how everything worked (according to graphs of how things in a vacum/perfect world ))
oops ....off the soapbox...
BTW (hair) never hurts to ask..
ask and you shall receive
don't ask and you will get exactly what you asked for... nothing (or in my case flame throwers pointed at me)

[Woody]

I do know however that the small puddle of ATF was in dried up by the next day. I had a friend of mine that went up and did a check up for me the following weekend. If there happens to be a "layer" of atf over the rocks or something I would be more than happy to take care of it with any way possible.



If you think the ATF just "dried up", you are totally wrong. Tranny fluid does not just evaporate. I guarantee that there is more than a "layer" left out on the trail. It has now seeped down into the soil, and what hasn't will just get washed down in the next rain. I seem to remember reading somewhere that 1 quart of oil will contaminate something like 3 acres of land. The loose soil should be removed as soon as possible, and a product called Peatsorb should be used to help get the rest out of the rocks.

I urge you to contact Jim Florence or Sandee McCullen for info on where to find Peatsorb, and also Pig Pads. Pig Pads would have allowed you to remove probably 90% of the oil floating on the puddle of water. These pads are great, as they absorb oil, but not water.

Please get this cleaned up as soon as possible, and next time you dump oil all over the trail, just clean it up, and don't post the pics.

Rick

[Hackle]

The main point of most of this discussion is to let people know that solutions to fluid spills are available and not that expensive. I have some pig pads that will soak up about 2 quarts of oil each. You can even use them in water and then wring them out and pick up more oil. The water will run out but the oil stays in. I still have some they cost me about $3.00 a piece and that is what I will sell them for. Most of the group I wheel with carry them in the Jeep at all times.
I am also working on getting some peat sorb in bulk and will also try to make that available to everyone also. This stuff is cool as it soaks up the oil and pretty much eats it. You can just put it on the spill and then leave it in place. The oil is gone as soon as it is soaked up.
If others did not bring this up the new members would not even know it was a problem.
Feel free to contact me if you need some pads or information.
Jim F.

[OlneyJeeps]

Everyone keeps mentioning "pig pads", however no one has stated where they can be purchased (walmart, popular,rei,mail order????)
If someone has a bunch (hackle) would it not be (just thinking outloud) a good idea to bring them to the next large gatherings (cleanup / bbq / large trailrun)? ie post in advance that you will have available for sale (might be extremely advandageous at cleanups to show that we are enviromentally conciencious)
also, how big are "pig pads"?

[KnetAZ]

OK, now we increase the value of this thread.

Pig Pads (http://www.newpig.com/en_US/main.jhtml?page=browse%2Fbrowse.jhtml&selectedGroup=White+PIG%AE+Oil-Only+Mat&itemId=1LWhite+PIG%AE+Oil-Only+Mat&selectedPlatform=Absorbents&ppanalysis=LHB&_DARGS=%2Fen_US%2Fbrowse%2Fplatform.jhtml_A&_DAV=White+PIG%AE+Oil-Only+Mat) - These are industrial pads designed to mop up spills. It is a fairly broad product line, but there seem to be 2 products that sound like a good fit for Jeeps. One product is an Oil-Only pad, one pad will hold 0.24 gal of fluid and is 20" x 16". It will only collect and hold hydrocarbon based fluids, and will not pick up water. This is what we needed at the roll over, it would have pulled the oil right off that pond. It won't pick up radiator coolant. For that you would need their Universal pad, which will pick up any fluid. It is also 20" x 16" and will hold 0.24 gal. Oil-Only pads are white and Universal pads are brown.

I have 100 of each type ordered, should be here next week.


Peat Sorb - Folks, this is a SERIOUSLY cool product.
http://www.peatsorb.com

Peat Sorb (http://www.peatsorb.com) is a loose particulate absorbent designed to neutralize and encapsulate hydrocarbon spills. This product acts on contact to instantly absorb hydrocarbons and hold them, thereby preventing their release back into the environment. It is a non-abrasive product capable of working on land or water. It is ideal for use in areas where hydrocarbon spills are common, as well as for use as a take-along absorbent for applications such as fire engines, ambulances, or other mobile service applications.

This stuff sucks up the fluid and locks it in. It also helps break the oil down, and turns into fertilizer. It also does not absorb water, only hydrocarbon based fuilds, so it won't pick up radiator fluid. From what the rep told me, and Sandee, maybe you could speak to this, the Forest Service and BLM have seen this stuff and like it so much that they want to mandate that it be used. I am getting some samples, and it looks like they have some packaging that would work well for Jeepers.


This has been a real eye opener for me. I had always considered spill clean up on the trail to be either a paper-towel-and-wiping thing or a dig-up-the-oily-dirt-and-throw-it-in-a-trash-bag thing. This stuff makes it easy to keep the trails spill free. AND the BLM and Forest Service know about it and want to see us using it. If you get the feeling that I am going to be evangelizing about this on the trail a little bit, you are correct.

[Huck]

Nice Kent,
That's info I can use. Let me know when you get the stuff in. I'd be willing to pick up some pads and the peat sorb stuff (if its in a jeeper friendly container system) to keep in the Jeeps and Hunting trailer. Clean up stuff will take its spot in my recovery gear containers.
Thanks for doing the investigation. Now, evangelicalism is a personal choice, but spreading the good word in an educational stance is always appropriate.
Ignorance of these products may be fairly common among us wheelers, as evidenced by this thread and the experienced people on this recovery mission.
Thanks again,
Huck

[OlneyJeeps]

Just curious... I have seen several MCabin trips posted, but no reports of site damage / condition
anyone?
anyone?
Buehler?

[Huck]

Steve,
Now, play nice :) I was told the area was in good shape last week by Mookie. I guess one of his buddies was out there and said you couldn't tell anything had happened out there. I don't know this from first hand observation. Just what I was told. No one in my group of buddies has been free enough to get out there. I have had people in town for Bike Week and been on two wheels for the past few weekend days. Another good way to spend a day.
Anyway, that's what I know.
Huck

[KnetAZ]

FYI

Anyone following this thread that is interested in getting some of the PigPads, I have them now.


6 pads (3 oil-only white pads and 3 universal brown pads) for $10

[Tom Schenk]

FYI

Anyone following this thread that is interested in getting some of the PigPads, I have them now.


6 pads (3 oil-only white pads and 3 universal brown pads) for $10


How can I contact you to get a hold of these? BTW, nice job in finding out about these products. I don't know the first thing about adequately cleaning up spilled oil stuffs. And I'm sure I am not alone. If these pads can be brought to the attention of the active AZVJC members it should greatly reduce the amount of oil unintentionally left on the trails. At that price there is little reason why our group shouldn't strive to make these standard equipment to be brought along on ANY trail run. At any rate, yeah, how can I buy some off you? Thanks.

[KnetAZ]

If these pads can be brought to the attention of the active AZVJC members it should greatly reduce the amount of oil unintentionally left on the trails.


Like post up on the mail side, or an FAQ, or in Tech? I agree with you , just not sure where the best place to do that is.

Anyway, My address is in my profile on the original web site, or you can call me at 602-214-5946, I'll beout in the garage all weekend getting ready for Maob in 2 weeks :D :D :D

[Tom Schenk]

Like post up on the mail side, or an FAQ, or in Tech? I agree with you , just not sure where the best place to do that is.

Anyway, My address is in my profile on the original web site, or you can call me at 602-214-5946, I'll beout in the garage all weekend getting ready for Maob in 2 weeks :D :D :D


By the way, I'm an idiot.
Kent, I didn't know this was you. I'm putting carpet in my friends house down the way from yours. Next time I'll creep by and see if you're around. I think I still owe you at least a case of suds for your much appreciated assistance in that "sticky " situation of mine last week.

[Tom Schenk]

Also if you need any camping gear for your trip let me know...stove, lantern, hammock, tent , pad etc.

[DougB]

The main point of most of this discussion is to let people know that solutions to fluid spills are available and not that expensive. I have some pig pads that will soak up about 2 quarts of oil each. You can even use them in water and then wring them out and pick up more oil. The water will run out but the oil stays in. I still have some they cost me about $3.00 a piece and that is what I will sell them for. Most of the group I wheel with carry them in the Jeep at all times.
I am also working on getting some peat sorb in bulk and will also try to make that available to everyone also. This stuff is cool as it soaks up the oil and pretty much eats it. You can just put it on the spill and then leave it in place. The oil is gone as soon as it is soaked up.
If others did not bring this up the new members would not even know it was a problem.
Feel free to contact me if you need some pads or information.
Jim F.

Jim,

I'd be interested in getting some. I've been looking for something like this.

Doug

[Hackle]

Jim,

I'd be interested in getting some. I've been looking for something like this.

Doug

Business Card info from Peat sorb rep.
Gloria Halas
Sales Manager
Zep Manufacturing
5701 W. Lastham Suite #104
Phx. AZ 85043
Tel # 602-272-9233
Cell 602-550-4490
gloria.halas@zepmfg.com
www.zep.com

Sandee told me it was about $35.00 for a 5 gal tub.

Pig Pads: I have about 14 pads left they are 3' X 3' and I split them to carry in the Jeep. I live on the west side of Phx. Call me on my cell phone 602-616-3090
Jim F.

[Hackle]

Big talk is cheap. Everyone in this article wanted a way to clean up spills. I have posted Pig Pads without one person asking how to get them from me. I now posted Peat Sorb and have it available cheap in a package you can carry in the Jeep. No response. It is easy to sound like you give a **** on the web when do you step up to the plate in real life????
Jim F.

[Huck]

Well now, talk about a flame job. I certainly don't think that's a way to gain any respect. Certainly not from me. Why would you think that this is the only forum to discuss or act on what was posted in this thread? I have been emailing Kent or knetaz regarding his purchase of the pigpads (per our prior discussion in this thread). He left me and others his number and I've tried to reach him. He's out of town doing the Jeep safari, but I will be getting my pads from him. A lot of our discussion took place on the rubiconownersforum.com about three weeks ago and that's when I first tried to call. I have also thought a lot about the Peatsorb. Currently, I'm not comfortable with the packaging of the stuff and want to see some while out on the trail. I feel there is a good chance of splitting open the bags as they are currently packaged. I also don't know if I want to carry the Peatsorb. I will definitely be carrying the pigpads and I will make up my mind on the Peatsorb after seeing it out on the trail. My daily life is real and I follow thru on what I say I will do. I don't need threats/accusations from anyone. Certainly not untruthful/spiteful accusations about an issue that you are not fully informed about.
I'm sorry that no one has contacted you regarding your post. Speaking for myself, I only wanted the pigpads and will be getting them through another person. This was a prior arrangement. (I said I'd get some if he got some....)
I can understand being frustrated having bought a product that isn't selling, but I certainly don't think flaming anyone or calling them a ?@#$% is going to help.
You've got a good point (environmental cleaning/clean up) and follow thru on what was said. However, you jumped the gun by assuming that no one picked up any supplies elsewhere. Take a step back and change your tone, then maybe some one will see the good in what you're saying
That is My Opinion,
Huck

[Hackle]

Huck I am not worried about gaining your respect. I am concerned about keeping our trails open. I am glad you set up buying Pig pads and I am sure you will be happy with the way they work on the trail. Pig pads will pick up about 95% of any spill (even in water) the Peat Sorb will get the rest of it. They make a great combo several others have them available also as I am getting low on supply.
As to the jumping the gun this is a 5 page thread and while you may have posted several times I doubt you filled all 5 pages. I have heard very little response from many that posted to this thread. Now as I am not the only one making Peat Sorb available I do know the others and would have heard if they had been contacted.
I tend to stay out of flame wars most of the time but felt this had merit. Sorry if you do not agree. I spend a lot of time at Land Use Meetings defending 4 wheelers and would like to see that we all clean up after ourselves. It would make the job of keeping trials open much easier.
Thank you for being one of the few to follow through on your comments
Jim F.

[Huck]

Hackle,
The environmental impact issue does have merit. We need to respect what we have. I have spent to many days and nights in the AZ wilderness and LOVE how much public lands we have in this state. As I travel to other states and look for remote spots to hunt, camp or wheel, what we have in this state really stands out. Outside of Alaska, I know of no other state that has as much public access land as we do.
I will continue to be as responsible of a land user as I can be. I know I'll still find people abusing what we have and I will try to do my best around them.
I find it difficult to preach to people these days.
This stems from the time I was stabbed and had a bottle split my head while hiking Pump House Wash in Flagstaff. I lived in Kachina Village for 6 years. On one hike I heard people throwing their beer bottles into a tank. As I walked up to them, I noticed their 12 pack box. I didn't mention anything about the bottles being tossed into the water, I just asked them to pick up their box. That was enough to piss off four drunk men and two drunk women. Long story short, I ended up hospitalized (stabbed and head stapled)and having to go to court as a witness all because I asked somone to pick up after themsleves.
Now, I always carry my Kimber and I'm very careful about to whom and what I say. I apologize for digressing, but when I tell people to be careful about what they say, they should know why.
You will get more people to rally around your point with positive comments. Angering people might get a reaction, but it might not be a positive one (i.e. my case above)
We are all out doing our part to enjoy the land in this club. I would agree that the more responsibility we take while out there the better.
I realize that you didn't ask for my respect. Respect is earned and not asked for.... Just reading your post inflamed me and caused me to lose what respect I had for you, through reading your posts and point of view. That's all,
thanks for the reply and your efforts in keeping these lands open,
Huck

[KnetAZ]

Huck,

Sorry I have been difficult to get a hold of, I have been traveling a lot lately. I have also been pretty busy getting ready for my trip to Moab this Saturday (4-17).

I still have PigPads, but will be taking them to Moab with me, the RubiconOwnersForum folks have shown a lot of interest in these, I expect I will sell what I have left up there. If you can let me know before Saturday and I'll set you up.

I have some sample bags of PeatSorb as well, if you want to check those out. I also got what I think is well packaged containers of PesatSorb, but they are a little bigger than I had thought they would be, but is enough product to pick up 1.5 gallons of fluid. It comes in a plastic bottle with a shaker top, between a quart and a half gallon in size. These go for $18 - $20 a piece depending on what kind of quantity can be ordered. My first thought is that they are a bit big for most folks needs. Some other package might work better (like those bulk spice containters or something....). I'll work that around some more when I get back (5-2-04).

Let me know.

[Huck]

Thanks for the update. I thought you were already gone. I left a message on your voicemail today. ( I was unable to access it prior to today) Save some for me, I'm a forum member, too :D . We'll hook up. I also want to discuss the axle upgrade and reprogramming of the PCM learning curve. I want to see if that helped. Have fun and be safe. Huck

[yjman]

Hackle is one of the few folks that I respect in the club. Last year he took us rookies through a driver’s course that actually showed me what my jeep can do. I watch and notice that he posts most if not all meetings to keep the trails open. I only wish that my work schedule would allow me to go to these meetings. Huck next time be careful who you attach on the board. Hackle is a well respected four wheeler and has done many great things with the club.

[Huck]

Its just the opposite. I didn't attack anyone. Please read the posts. Its Hackle that lashed out. I just came on to the thread and read what he wrote. At that time I lost an appreciation/respect for him based off of what was written.
Certainly doesn't mean that I won't like him when I meet him nor that we didn't work things out and end amicably (my spelling may be off) on this thread.
I feel like your warning may be misplaced. I'm glad you learned some stuff last year. I'm reading another post about a clinic for this year. I hope to be there and to offer some help, myself. This is if ther are no schedule conflicts.
After speaking with others, I'm not the only one who was taken aback/attacked by Hackle's post--They just chose not say anything for fear of this backlash.
I respect your right to comment about me, but did I really offend you? I also appreciate your warning, just can't figure out what for? Do I have to watch my back while out in the woods, now? :D
What's the purpose of this club if not to educate, get outdoors and share information? I didn't write the bylaws (if there are any), but that's why I signed up.
Sorry the discussion bummed you out YJman, I thought we were being civilized and ended on a good note.
Huck

[Hackle]

YJman thanks for defending me :)
Huck and I did work this out it is not a big deal. Lets just let this die.
Jim F.

[OlneyJeeps]

Can I stack some rocks on top of the grave? ;D

[Gray Matter]

Back to the issue.
What is the best way for me to get some pig pads and some peat sorb. I would really like to keep it with me. My weekends are shot for quite a while. Can I pay you guys now and pick it up later?
TIA
Brian Luse

Please email me at graymatterwj@yahoo.com

[OlneyJeeps]

I could get some from Kent and trade them for $$ and an engine hoist ;D
you ready for flat fender run yet (or you still gonna need someone following you throwing peat sorb?)?

[OlneyJeeps]

would peat sorb work with spoon bills (wild duck always seems to be on the oily side)?

[Gray Matter]

I could get some from Kent and trade them for $$ and an engine hoist ;D
you ready for flat fender run yet (or you still gonna need someone following you throwing peat sorb?)?

Engine hoist...uhhh....uhhh...what engine hoist!! :D

[FlexyXJ]

YJman thanks for defending me :)
Huck and I did work this out it is not a big deal. Lets just let this die.
Jim F.


NO dont let this thread die!!! Its the longest running thread here..... Hey Hackle....remember the 20 min rule... :D Some times it just does not work...does it....


Joe

[Sandee McCullen]

The main issue here is the issue of CLEANING UP after ourselves........ it doesn't matter if it's the "recovery team" or the actual driver. The attitude that "the ATF was in dried up by the next day" is absolutely crazy.

These pictures are on the Extreme Environmentalists WEB pages and you can bet they're not good. When will you all pay attention that motorized recreation is in the spot light and everything we do is front page. If we so much as look crossed eyed at a tree today something bad is made of it.

PLEASE, PLEASE PLEASE pay attention to the bottom line action that will be against ALL OF US.

There are two products on the market that the agencies and even the enviros (even though they won't publicly admit it) accept. P.I.G. absorbant pads are small pads about the size of a childs diaper that absorb oil products only. A pad can be thrown on top of an oil spill on water and it will immediately absorb the oil............. no water. These pads can be reused over and over until they cannot absorb any more oil. One pad can absorb more than a quart of oil. PeatSorb is a natural peatmoss that can be mixed into the ground, thrown on top of water or rubbed on an oil spill. It will absorb the oil product, lock it in and allow the natural microbs from the earth to eat the oil products. When using kitty litter to absorb oil this turns the kitty litter into hazardous material (haz mat) which needs to be removed and disposed of within a haz mat disposal area. PeatSorb does not need to be removed and is not considered haz mat. Although the enviromentalists will always use "spills" against us if we truly respect our resources and CLEAN OUR MESSES UP the agencies will support our use of public lands. If we have an "I don't give a damn" attitude or spout off "BLM can kiss my betootie" ........... we ALL LOSE!

There are several clubs, groups and individuals that have these products they are willing to share and both are very inexpensive and easy to carry and use.......... If everyone carried these products most of our "bad image" would go away and our relationships with the agencies would be on a positive note rather than all of us being classified as "rowdies" because of one or two idiots. OUR concern for the resources is the #1 issue we must accept.

Mookie.............. what in the "H" are you doing on a 4.5 trail ALONE!!?? We all want "peace and solitude" but no one belongs on hard core or extreme trails alone. What would have happened if you were not able to "walk out"? PLEASE consider the consequences..........

We're all in the game together............... if we don't stick together and show responsible use we will lose it all.

The route inventory has been done in the FJ area. A group is now going through an "evaluation process" to get us to actual "designations"as required by the BLM and Forest Service. This was really interesting to sit with the team and have these pictures surface and a copy of the letter to the Tucson BLM requesting this canyon be closed to ALL motorized use!! Makes it VERY DIFFICULT to make a "side" for motorized use when all they see is "misuse" and "abuse". YOU can all help by simply being responsible.






Hello,

I haven't been on the site for about a week and I've missed a lot. I know it has been posted that there was an ATF leak. I lost a bit less than 1qt. I didn't lose any oil. Everything I could pick up, I did (Glass, Trash, etc..). I do know however that the small puddle of ATF was in dried up by the next day. I had a friend of mine that went up and did a check up for me the following weekend. If there happens to be a "layer" of atf over the rocks or something I would be more than happy to take care of it with any way possible.

I do not go out jeeping looking to cause trouble or even to be noticed. I have a lot of time when I am in town and I like to make the most of it. I am not happy I rolled it and caused environmental damage. I go to these places for the views and the peace of mind. I try avoid leaving a mark on anything. I take full responsibility for the accident and am willing to deal with the aftermath (spillage, greenies, vjc members). I take my jeep out almost ONCE A WEEK which is a lot more than most and I do expect the problems every once in a while.

Thanks for sticking up for me guys. I know my posts have been few and most have been asking for help. Maybe I should post all the weekly trips I take without incident just so my rep can die down a bit. I've learned a few things the hard way and many have helped. Thanks again VJC.


Mookie

[OlneyJeeps]

Who's in for a trail ride Sunday (Martinez Canyon) to obtain photographs / documentation that proper clean up has been done?

PS (Mookie): I might humbly suggest photos on your website (referenced/linked in tree huggers letters/site) be replaced with photos of our various club clean ups

[Sandee McCullen]

Who's in for a trail ride Sunday (Martinez Canyon) to obtain photographs / documentation that proper clean up has been done?

PS (Mookie): I might humbly suggest photos on your website (referenced/linked in tree huggers letters/site) be replaced with photos of our various club clean ups

I cannot make it out there on Sunday as I have a previous commitment but I will certainly donate cleaning products and a supply of PeatSorb to mix in the ground.

Please take pictures of the "before" and "after" clean up process and do post them.

A large group of extreme wheelers did a massive "clean" and "derock" on Annilhilator a few weeks ago. The agencies were more than impressed and I have been contacted by D.C. BLM to keep a "scrapbook" of sorts of these projects and asked to notify both the state and D.C. office of such cleanups. They are truly trying to help us but they do have to investigate reports such as were submitted re Martinez.

Another thing a good cleanup would do is put a "closure" to the legal investigation into locating Moogie and writing a citation. Even scout out the rest of the trail and clean any/all oil "spots" or spills.......... Derock areas if needed.

Another thing to think about is when taking pictures......... specifically ones that are posted on the internet absolutely CANNOT reflect alcohol. PLEASE realize we (motorized users) are on the front page .............. EVERYTHING we say or do is, and will be, used against us if possible.

Please contact me if you're in need of cleaning supplies. I will be in town through Friday afternoon and can meet someone at a half-way spot if needed.

Sandee

[jeep4offrd]

I might be up for it.
Bruce

[flxy_tj]

:D ........Sound like a good idea to me. I can even bring the little rock crawler (my Son Cole, he is only a year and half) But he loves to wheel and get out and play. I was looking for a run to do this weekend this sounds like fun. I can probley get a couple of other members in on it also.. lets figure this out. I do not have any peat sorb or pig pads. I would be able to go get some tomorrow if time permits. :rolleyes:
Let me know if anyone has any questions give me a call at 480 688 7972 please don't call before 9am and no later then 11pm. thanks
Jon Snowden. :cool:

[Rick Latrani]

Well someone screwed up: http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?t=5281 :mad:

[NVRSTUKXJ]

"When using kitty litter to absorb oil this turns the kitty litter into hazardous material (haz mat) which needs to be removed and disposed of within a haz mat disposal area."
Not Quite A Correct Statement

Used Oil means any oil that has bee refined from crude oil, or any synthetic oil, that has been used and as a result of such use is contaminated by physical or chemical impurities. (40CFR 260.10)

Used oils that do not exhibit a hazardous characteristic (i.e. Listed) may be disposed of in an industrial or municipal solid waste landfill. (40CFR 279)

This does not in any way minimize what happened and the need to clean up spills, just trying to show there is a difference between hazardous and non-hazardous/non-RCRA waste. People some times freak when they hear terms such as hazardous waste and toxic materials, etc. and don't want to be around it, let alone clean it up. I've noticed these terms (and others) thrown about quite frequently at the green sites to try and incite people to action.

I think people should be properly educated. Let me reitereate that these spills need to be cleaned up promptly, but they may not be if people think the material is a hazardous waste and needs to be disposed of at a special facility, etc.

I'll get off my soap box now......sorry for the rant.......

[OlneyJeeps]

was than an "eco-friendly / biodegradable soap" soap box or one of those "toxic soap" soap box?

[OlneyJeeps]

Cleanup documentation trip posted (would prefer experienced (familiar with area) leader though)

[flxy_tj]

:D OlneyJeeps I emailed you at your Yahoo address. wondering if you were planning on doing the whole Cayon trail or not. Just wondering because you have the trip down as just to the cabins if we are just going to the cabins to were mookie rolled I can lead. Were mookie rolled is really close to the cabins. Let me Know
Jon Snowden 480 688 7972 please don't call past 11 pm Thanks.

[OlneyJeeps]

from the "other" message board:

I belive there will be little if any cleanup that will be required.
I intend primarly to document (pictures of which will, with Mookie's
help, be posted on the site which is linked to by the "greenies")the
condition the site was made / returned to. Geez, with "luck" maybe
their site refers to the handicapped license plate of a disabled
Jeeper or two they feel they have the right to deny access of public
land to ;-).

Time permitting (which I almost completely expect), I would like to
enjoy the beauty of the area.


Could you get some of the supplies from Sandee? (she lives on wrong side of planet (Mesa) and my armour suit is at the cleaners)

No one has posted to trip, and (oh god... gonna agree with Sandee again) not gonna do trail alone

[mookie]

I have removed the accused photos. Please see my link..

http://www.killingtimeproductions.com/jeep/roll/

[flxy_tj]

OlneyJeeps was gonna call you back but by the time I got the message from my phone it was late. I was working, I get off at 11 pm did not wanna wake anyone. I will give you a call on Thursday and see how things are going.. Also I live in mesa if we can somehow set up a meeting with Sandee. I could possibly meet up with her and get the supplies we need on Saturday or Friday. Friday is kind of tight on time between classes and work.......
Talk to you later,
Jon Snowden.

[KnetAZ]

I am planning on going out there on Sunday, I was on the original recovery team, and I have all required supplies.

Just a suggestion, can all the info in this thread be distilled down and posted up in the Lost Dutchman area of the board, so we can refer to it there and new members can gain from this expereince?

People who have these clean up supplies to sell could post there too, so folks would have an easy way to get this stuff.

Seems that there is an education part of this that should not be lost.

[Devil Man]

WHAT TIME ARE U GOING I WILL TRY TO GO WITH U :rolleyes:(480)220-5022

[OlneyJeeps]

Clean up documentation trip (posted on board) trip leader has been changed to Jon Snowden. Because there will be several families in attendance, meeting time has been changed (please check "trip" posting at master site)

[jeepsonly]

How did things go this weekend?

[ROCKFAN]

I personally thought that the canyon area (up to the mill, which is as far as I went yesterday) was the cleanest I have ever seen a trail. The only thing any of us picked up was a water bottle that appeared to be left behind by a hiker who came up with one of the commercial Hummer tours that park below the caves and walk up. (the bottle was not there when we came up the canyon, but was there when we came down)

There was one small patch of residue at the rollover location that looked like it had already been treated with peatsorb - it did not look like untreated oil residue in the dirt. Kent had peatsorb with him, and put more on top of that one spot, as well as a couple of other spots that may or may not have been residue (or could have been tire marks) - a bit of extra peatsorb can't hurt.

Plenty of pictures were taken - K&K will probably be posting them up soon.

No rocks were stacked in the execution of this cleanup :)

[jeepsonly]

Nice. Thanks you guys, for going out to do this. I would have liked to come along but my entire weekend was packed. I'll be there for future cleanup trips though.

[Sandee McCullen]

My THANKS to everyone also!

Sorry to start another flame war over this............... there seems to still be way too many that simply don't care. That attitude makes what you all dedicate for everyone.......... even better.

Thanks.

For any of you when you're on trips and are "picking up trash" or "cleaning an oil spot or spill".......... if you would take a picture or two and send to me I will be keeping a file that will enable us (or our attorney) to present OUR side reflecting responsible use.

Keep up the good work.............. AzVJC have a very good name within the agencies, let's keep it that way.

[mookie]

Once again, thanks to everyone for the support. I'm leaving on Tuesday night for a 4 month tour without my Jeeps. :(

I will be the audio engineer for the band Fishbone ( http://www.fishbone.net/ ) until June 1. After that I will be tour managing an american folk singer named Ethan Daniel Davidson ( http://www.ethandanieldavidson.com ) through Europe until August 14. I will be updating my web site and checking my E-mail.

Mookie
http://www.killingtimeproductions.com

[Sandee McCullen]

Once again, thanks to everyone for the support. I'm leaving on Tuesday night for a 4 month tour without my Jeeps. :(

I will be the audio engineer for the band Fishbone ( http://www.fishbone.net/ ) until June 1. After that I will be tour managing an american folk singer named Ethan Daniel Davidson ( http://www.ethandanieldavidson.com ) through Europe until August 14. I will be updating my web site and checking my E-mail.

Mookie
http://www.killingtimeproductions.com


Mookie,
That's what friends are for!

Actually, barring the flame war and ugliness, this incident probably helped us. It made it back to D.C. and I've received several phone calls and emails inquiring about this and/or "Supporting" our side.................. The saving issue was the use of acceptable cleaning products. ............ PeatSorb and P.I.G. pads will certainly help us through this problem. The enviro's can't fight FACTS.

You take care and keep in touch as you can. Sandee

[Huck]

Howdy all,
The thread rolls on..... Thanks for making out there this past weekend and documenting the 'clean' area.
I appreciate the fact that our clean up efforts showed thru the ensuing debacle.
I hope everyone had fun and was proud of what they saw. I had a most excellent time on the coast, but will hopefully be wheeling over the next few weekends.
It appears from my communications with the BLM and AZwild that we are on the same page and have come through the event with solidarity (between the azvjc and blm and between ourselves).
I believe this has done more to bring issues and education to the forefront of our trips and will hopefulley add to our enjoyment of the state in the future.
Thanks for all of the positive communication and energy shown throughout both threads. While not everyone will be as responsibile as we would hope for, I think we make strides in the right direction.
Keep your tires down and your messes cleaned...... :) Kent, I'm glad your back, can you drop me a line or an email and I'll hook up with you as discussed prior to Moab. Are you doing the cracks run? I'm thinking it might make for a fun weekend.
Huck