blooddrive
01-02-2004, 07:14 PM
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5941 From: Matt Barker <azjeeps@f...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 0:03pm
Subject: Re: Run Mon. 2/28
Maybe a chance to try out my new lift... As long as I can get it installed
this weekend. I would have to come up from Sierra Vista, so somewhere
around Tucson would be good. My YJ will be pretty much stock other than the
lift and 33's with disconnects.
Matt B.
94 YJ
http://azjeeps.web.com
Range Riders 4 Wheelers
Arizona Virtual Jeep Club
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
5942 From: DougB <azjeep@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 0:05pm
Subject: Re: bad e-mail address for Red Creek
They're probably all out doing a trail run down Red Creek before it closes.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Reinken <daver@c...>
To: Stu Olson <solson8@u...>; az_vjc <az_vjc@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 10:24 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: bad e-mail address for Red Creek
> I was told that _everyone_ is out of the office and unavailable today.
> I am welcome to call back tomorrow, when someone "hopefully" (their
> words) will be in the office.
>
> Hell of a way to run a railroad, I tell ya.
>
> I'll probably take off work early tomorrow, drive up there and camp in
> their office until I get something, if I can't get them to give me any
> info tomorrow AM.
>
> Heck, I can pick up the kids from school on the way. If wild boys
> running through their office doesn't motivate them, I don't know what
> will.
>
> Dave Reinken wrote:
> >
> > I got shuffled around on the phone with these people yesterday afternoon
> > (U: You need to talk to X over here. X: No, you need to talk to Y over
> > at this location. Y: No you need to talk to Z back where X is. Z: Not
> > available, left message. Aggravating.) I'll be starting in on them
> > again this AM. I'll see if I can get a valid email address for Mr.
> > Lopez, along with some copies (preferably machine readable) of the
> > actual report in question.
> >
> > Stu Olson wrote:
> > >
> > > The e-mail address for Forest Ranger Lopez bounced. I have it as:
> > >
> > > dlopez/r3_tonto@f...
> > >
> > > Does anyone else have a valid one? I got this one from Dave Reinken's
> > > e-mail notice about Red Creek.
> > >
> > > Thanks.......Stu
> > >
> > > Stu Olson N7QJP
> > > Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
> > > http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
> > > http://home.off-road.com/~stu
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> eGroups.com Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/az_vjc/
> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
>
>
>
5943 From: DougB <azjeep@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 0:08pm
Subject: Re: better news about forests
Thanks for posting this, Stu...it is nice to see that opposition is
building. We need to continue to be active, or else the radical minority
will get their way and the public will be denied access to public lands.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: Stu Olson <solson8@u...>
To: az_vjc <az_vjc@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 11:36 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] better news about forests
> http://www.denverpost.com/news/news0224l.htm
>
> Stu Olson N7QJP
> Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
> http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
> http://home.off-road.com/~stu
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -- Talk to your group with your own voice!
> -- http://www.egroups.com/VoiceChatPage?listName=az_vjc&m=1
>
>
5944 From: DougB <azjeep@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 0:18pm
Subject: Re: Run Mon. 2/28
There's a write up on our Web page www.azvjc.web.com , but to summarize, a
class 5 trail is for extremely modified vehicles only (35's +, lockers fore
and aft, minimum 60:1 crawl rate, winch, and diapers all mandatory).
Winching may be/is required for even the most tricked out vehicle.
I know of no class 5 in Tucson. Chiva Falls is a 3+ to a 4 (as I recall it)
There are different rating systems out there, but we use the 1 to 5 scale.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: Stu Olson <solson8@u...>
To: Hal Loy <tucsonhal@e...>; <az_vjc@eGroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 12:30 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Run Mon. 2/28
> I need to calibrate myself. I use the Moab trail rating system where a 5
> stops any and every vehicle from going on.
>
> What rating system is used here by the VJC? (ie., the range of the scale)
>
> Stu
>
> Stu Olson N7QJP
> Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
> http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
> http://home.off-road.com/~stu
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Hal Loy [mailto:tucsonhal@e...]
> >Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 12:22
> >To: az_vjc@eGroups.com
> >Subject: [az_vjc] Run Mon. 2/28
> >
> >
> >I would like to take a run Mon. 2/28, I don't have a destination in
> >mind yet, but Rice Peak was suggested, someone else would need to lead
> >that one as I've never been there. I can lead to Chiva Falls or
> >Charleou Gap but anywhere in the lower half of the state would be fine
> >if we can get a leader. I can run 4+'s and enjoy 5's (I only have 31"
> >tires and may need to be strapped or winched depending on the severity
> >of the obsticles on a 5).
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >-- Create a poll/survey for your group!
> >-- http://www.egroups.com/vote?listname=az_vjc&m=1
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> eGroups.com Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/az_vjc/
> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
>
>
>
5945 From: Stu Olson <solson8@u...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 0:23pm
Subject: Re: USFS management
Linda,
What you say may be true of some USFS rangers, and giving a vague answer is
certainly a safe way to keep one's job (I don't wish anyone to lose their
job). However, I will not agree that all USFS rangers are on our side. I
have encountered multiple rangers while doing recreational prospecting in
the Prescott National Forest. It was clear, clear as crystal, that the
ranger not only did not want me legally prospecting on my claim, he did not
want me in HIS forest.
A good Jeeping friend of mine (retired engineer) recently spoke with a Tonto
forest ranger about an old stagecoach trail that the forest service had
posted closed during the past couple of years. His experience in speaking
with the ranger was as negative as was mine. He told me that it was quite
obvious that he was not wanted on any Jeep trails in that forest. The
ranger told him that they were trying to close as many trails as possible to
keep him and his friends out of the forest.
Again, I will agree that there are certainly some USFS rangers that don't
agree with their management's policy. However, I personally have not met
them yet and I also have not spoken to anyone who has had any positive
experiences with a ranger in the past year or two.
Just my observation of life.......Stu
Stu Olson N7QJP
Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
http://home.off-road.com/~stu
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Linda Luik [mailto:p14175@e...]
>Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 12:50
>To: Stu Olson
>Cc: Dave Reinken; az_vjc
>Subject: USFS management
>
>
>Please remember that the USFS rangers are on our side. They have been
>instructed by their management not to speak to the public about
>certain forest
>policies and projects. So if they seem a bit vaque in their anwers
>it could be
>that they just don't want to lose their jobs. They are really
>caught between a
>rock and a hard place.
>
>Linda
5946 From: Stu Olson <solson8@u...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 0:24pm
Subject: Re: Trail Ratings example
This is what I am use to using as a trail rating system.
Stu Olson N7QJP
Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
http://home.off-road.com/~stu
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Leah Eliscu [mailto:eliscu@m...]
>Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 12:54
>To: az_vjc@egroups.com
>Subject: [az_vjc] Trail Ratings example
>
>
>Following is a commonly used rating system
>
>
>
> 1 Rating
>All weather road; 4WD not needed
>
>
>
>1.5 Rating
>Graded road; 4WD may be needed in poor weather
>
>
>
>2 Rating
>Unimproved or rarely graded road. 4WD or extra clearance needed
> at times, with no special driving skills required
>
>
>
>2.5 Rating
>Road rarely maintained, 4WD, good clearance, low gears often
> needed, with some extra care and a bit of driving experience useful
>
>
>
> 3 Rating
>Road in difficult terrain, rarely maintained, 4WD, good clearance,
>and low gears essential, with some driving skill and daring
>required
>
>
>
>3.5 Rating
>Road in difficult terrain, probably maintained only by occasional
>users. Excellent stock truck or utility vehicle required, with
>considerable driving skill and daring needed
>
>
>
>4 Rating
>Trail either never bladed or badly eroded. Stock vehicles are in
>jeopardy. Modifications for improved off-road performance and top
>driving skills needed
>
>
>
>4+ Rating
>We can hardly improve on the original description written a few
>years ago by Jack Bickers: "with driving by World Class Yahoo
>Jeepers not much concerned with vehicle durability or personal
>safety." It is common to have as many as 10 percent of the vehicles
>experience major mechanical failures (gears, axles, driveshafts) on
>these trails.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-- Create a poll/survey for your group!
>-- http://www.egroups.com/vote?listname=az_vjc&m=1
>
>
>
5947 From: Hal Loy <tucsonhal@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 0:32pm
Subject: Re: Run Mon. 2/28
where we meet will be dependant on where we go, keep an eye on the
message board and I'll let you know as we get closer and confirm that
anyone other than me will be there. - Hal 93 YJ
"matt barker" <azjeep-@f...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/az_vjc/?start=5941
> Maybe a chance to try out my new lift... As long as I can get it
installed
> this weekend. I would have to come up from Sierra Vista, so somewhere
> around Tucson would be good. My YJ will be pretty much stock other
than the
> lift and 33's with disconnects.
>
> Matt B.
> 94 YJ
> http://azjeeps.web.com
> Range Riders 4 Wheelers
> Arizona Virtual Jeep Club
>
5948 From: Linda Luik <p14175@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 0:33pm
Subject: Re: USFS management
I have never experinced that sort of attitude from any USFS ranger. I my
encounters have been positive.
I don't know what to say......
Linda
Stu Olson wrote:
>
> Linda,
>
> What you say may be true of some USFS rangers, and giving a vague answer is
> certainly a safe way to keep one's job (I don't wish anyone to lose their
> job). However, I will not agree that all USFS rangers are on our side. I
> have encountered multiple rangers while doing recreational prospecting in
> the Prescott National Forest. It was clear, clear as crystal, that the
> ranger not only did not want me legally prospecting on my claim, he did not
> want me in HIS forest.
>
> A good Jeeping friend of mine (retired engineer) recently spoke with a Tonto
> forest ranger about an old stagecoach trail that the forest service had
> posted closed during the past couple of years. His experience in speaking
> with the ranger was as negative as was mine. He told me that it was quite
> obvious that he was not wanted on any Jeep trails in that forest. The
> ranger told him that they were trying to close as many trails as possible to
> keep him and his friends out of the forest.
>
> Again, I will agree that there are certainly some USFS rangers that don't
> agree with their management's policy. However, I personally have not met
> them yet and I also have not spoken to anyone who has had any positive
> experiences with a ranger in the past year or two.
>
> Just my observation of life.......Stu
>
> Stu Olson N7QJP
> Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
> http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
> http://home.off-road.com/~stu
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Linda Luik [mailto:p14175@email.sps.mot.com]
> >Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 12:50
> >To: Stu Olson
> >Cc: Dave Reinken; az_vjc
> >Subject: USFS management
> >
> >
> >Please remember that the USFS rangers are on our side. They have been
> >instructed by their management not to speak to the public about
> >certain forest
> >policies and projects. So if they seem a bit vaque in their anwers
> >it could be
> >that they just don't want to lose their jobs. They are really
> >caught between a
> >rock and a hard place.
> >
> >Linda
Attachment: vcard [not shown]
5949 From: Stu Olson <solson8@u...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 0:34pm
Subject: Re: Photos of Red Creek 2-00
I don't have an album full of photos, but I have these Red Creek photos to
offer to anyone who has not had a chance to visit:
http://home.off-road.com/~stu/others/other4b.htm
This was without a doubt THE best trip I took last year.
Please folks, write a letter (address below) and tell the USFS that you want
FR18 and Red Creek left open to vehicle traffic. This trail is too
beautiful to give up!
Stu
Stu Olson N7QJP
Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
http://home.off-road.com/~stu
>-----Original Message-----
>From: DavidHouk@w... [mailto:DavidHouk@w...]
>Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 13:12
>To: solson8@u...; az_vjc@egroups.com
>Subject: Photos of Red Creek 2-00
>
>
>Greetings!
>
>David Houk has an album of photos for you to
>see using the FREE PhotoPoint photo sharing service.
>
>Here is a message describing the photos:
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>These pictures of Red Creek Trail were taken less than 2 weeks
>ago. Please send your letter today to help keep the trail open for
>vehicles. Thank you
>
>Send letters to:
>
>Delvin Lopez
>District Ranger
>Tonto National Forest Cave
>Creek Ranger District
>40202 N. Cave Creek Rd.
>Scottsdale, AZ. 85262
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Simply click on the link below to go directly to their photo album
>area on the PhotoPoint web site, where you can see all the photos
>that they have prepared for you.
>
>Photo Album:
> http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=27047&pw=god&a=1884049
>
>AOL Users:
> <a
>href="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=27047&pw=god&a=18
>84049">Click Here</a>
>
>Click on the link above to see the photos. If neither of the links
>are clickable, simply cut and paste the first link into your web browser.
>
>If you would like to know how to share your own photos using the
>free PhotoPoint service, click on this link:
>
> http://www.photopoint.com/
>
>The PhotoPoint server is a free service courtesy of Pantellic
>Software. We hope you find it useful!
>
>-PhotoPoint Automated Attendant
>
>
5950 From: Stu Olson <solson8@u...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 0:48pm
Subject: Re: USFS management
I am sure that is true, Linda. USFS rangers are just people, like you and
I. Although most off-roaders are good and considerate people, I have met
some that are just the opposite. Let's hope that the number of rangers on
our side heavily out-weight the ones that aren't!
Stu
Stu Olson N7QJP
Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
http://home.off-road.com/~stu
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Linda Luik [mailto:p14175@e...]
>Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 13:33
>To: Stu Olson
>Cc: az_vjc
>Subject: Re: USFS management
>
>
>I have never experinced that sort of attitude from any USFS ranger. I my
>encounters have been positive.
>I don't know what to say......
>
>Linda
>
>
>Stu Olson wrote:
>>
>> Linda,
>>
>> What you say may be true of some USFS rangers, and giving a
>vague answer is
>> certainly a safe way to keep one's job (I don't wish anyone to lose their
>> job). However, I will not agree that all USFS rangers are on
>our side. I
>> have encountered multiple rangers while doing recreational prospecting in
>> the Prescott National Forest. It was clear, clear as crystal, that the
>> ranger not only did not want me legally prospecting on my claim,
>he did not
>> want me in HIS forest.
>>
>> A good Jeeping friend of mine (retired engineer) recently spoke
>with a Tonto
>> forest ranger about an old stagecoach trail that the forest service had
>> posted closed during the past couple of years. His experience
>in speaking
>> with the ranger was as negative as was mine. He told me that it
>was quite
>> obvious that he was not wanted on any Jeep trails in that forest. The
>> ranger told him that they were trying to close as many trails as
>possible to
>> keep him and his friends out of the forest.
>>
>> Again, I will agree that there are certainly some USFS rangers that don't
>> agree with their management's policy. However, I personally have not met
>> them yet and I also have not spoken to anyone who has had any positive
>> experiences with a ranger in the past year or two.
>>
>> Just my observation of life.......Stu
>>
>> Stu Olson N7QJP
>> Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
>> http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
>> http://home.off-road.com/~stu
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Linda Luik [mailto:p14175@e...]
>> >Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 12:50
>> >To: Stu Olson
>> >Cc: Dave Reinken; az_vjc
>> >Subject: USFS management
>> >
>> >
>> >Please remember that the USFS rangers are on our side. They have been
>> >instructed by their management not to speak to the public about
>> >certain forest
>> >policies and projects. So if they seem a bit vaque in their anwers
>> >it could be
>> >that they just don't want to lose their jobs. They are really
>> >caught between a
>> >rock and a hard place.
>> >
>> >Linda
5951 From: Dave Reinken <daver@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 0:57pm
Subject: Re: USFS management
I too have had all good experiences with USFS Rangers. I'm not taking
too much more run-around on getting a copy of this report, though. I
will, however, certainly be courteous and respectful, but firm and
fervent in my efforts to obtain it and have my voice heard.
Linda Luik wrote:
>
> I have never experinced that sort of attitude from any USFS ranger. I my
> encounters have been positive.
> I don't know what to say......
>
> Linda
>
> Stu Olson wrote:
> >
> > Linda,
> >
> > What you say may be true of some USFS rangers, and giving a vague answer is
> > certainly a safe way to keep one's job (I don't wish anyone to lose their
> > job). However, I will not agree that all USFS rangers are on our side. I
> > have encountered multiple rangers while doing recreational prospecting in
> > the Prescott National Forest. It was clear, clear as crystal, that the
> > ranger not only did not want me legally prospecting on my claim, he did not
> > want me in HIS forest.
> >
> > A good Jeeping friend of mine (retired engineer) recently spoke with a Tonto
> > forest ranger about an old stagecoach trail that the forest service had
> > posted closed during the past couple of years. His experience in speaking
> > with the ranger was as negative as was mine. He told me that it was quite
> > obvious that he was not wanted on any Jeep trails in that forest. The
> > ranger told him that they were trying to close as many trails as possible to
> > keep him and his friends out of the forest.
> >
> > Again, I will agree that there are certainly some USFS rangers that don't
> > agree with their management's policy. However, I personally have not met
> > them yet and I also have not spoken to anyone who has had any positive
> > experiences with a ranger in the past year or two.
> >
> > Just my observation of life.......Stu
> >
> > Stu Olson N7QJP
> > Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
> > http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
> > http://home.off-road.com/~stu
> >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Linda Luik [mailto:p14175@e...]
> > >Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 12:50
> > >To: Stu Olson
> > >Cc: Dave Reinken; az_vjc
> > >Subject: USFS management
> > >
> > >
> > >Please remember that the USFS rangers are on our side. They have been
> > >instructed by their management not to speak to the public about
> > >certain forest
> > >policies and projects. So if they seem a bit vaque in their anwers
> > >it could be
> > >that they just don't want to lose their jobs. They are really
> > >caught between a
> > >rock and a hard place.
> > >
> > >Linda
5952 From: Dave Reinken <daver@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 0:58pm
Subject: [Fwd: FWD: FR 18--Red Creek EA]
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: FWD: FR 18--Red Creek EA
Date: 24 Feb 00 13:35:42 -0700
From: Terry Heslin <theslin@p...>
Reply-To: Terry Heslin <theslin@p...>
To: Blind *Copy <theslin@p...>
Outdoor Enthusiasts:
Some electronic messages sent to Forest Service e-mail addresses
provided previously have bounced. I called Environmental Analysis team
leader and he said this address should work:
dlopez@f...
if that won't work, try dlopez/r3_tonto_cavecreek@f...
However, he stated that he was not sure that e-mail messages were being
accepted for this comment phase. He said he would ask for Delvin
Lopez's opinion. As before, it is suggested that you print a hardcopy
of your note/letter and send it to the address provided below in the
sample letter. If you want a copy of the EA, or if you have questions,
please call Rory Steinke at 480.610.3300.
Here is a sample letter from:
Linda Luik
ASA4WDC Land Use/Conservation Chair
================================================== =========
Delvin R. Lopez
District Ranger
Cave Creek Ranger District
40202 N. Cave Creek Road
Scottsdale, AZ 85262
Dear Mr. Lopez,
It has come to my attention that EA regarding Red Creek Road (Forest
Road # 18) has only one option to continue to allow OHV use, Alternate
A. Alternates B-F would eliminate recreation opportunity and reduce
access along Red Creek and the Verde River. I strongly encourage you to
select Alternate A when making the final decision on the fate of this
area along the Verde River. The Red Creek Road last open motorized
access to the Verde River in the thirty three miles between Child's
power plant and the Sheep's Bridge. It would be a great loss not only
to the OHV community but to every one who enjoys the Arizona outdoors.
My reference to the EA, in this letter, was provded by a dear friend and
fellow outdoor enthusiast. I was unable to obtain a copy of the EA.
I understand that the EA, section 3.6, contains the statement:
"Direct hoof impact on stream banks and utilization of riparian
vegetation is the primary factor destabilizing stream banks and causing
the channel to widen."
I spend a lot of time in the desert on BLM, Arizona State Trust Land and
U.S. Forest land and have spent many pleasant days exploring the area
in and around the Red Creek Trail. I have never seen evidence of
cattle causing destabilization of the Red Creek stream bank and/or
widening of its channel. Most of the times that I have been there the
creek was relatively narrow (less than 5 feet wide) and only a couple
inches deep. I have never seen cattle tracks in the water. Every time I
explore creeks and washes in this area I notice debris left from flash
floods left high in the rock walls and trees. It is easy to imagine the
modifications to creek bed each time this happens. Needless to say, it
is doubtful that either animals or OHVs will modify the Red Creek as
much as a heavy spring rain.
I am glad to note that the excerpt from section 3.6 do not consider OHV
use in the area to be a contributing factor to the stream bank
destabilization. I have never seen evidence of OHV traffic causing
damage to Red Creek. Mostly because of the rocky "filters" early on in
the trail that keep all except the most interested back country
explorers out. Since this trail is also quite remote for most people, I
don't think it sees a lot of traffic.
I also understand that the cost of closing the road, ($6500 to make it
inaccessible) and cost of keeping it closed ($1900 per year for law
enforcement) are expenses that can be avoided or drastically reduced by
allowing an OHV or 4x4 club to maintain the trail. I would gladly
support an adopt-a-trail program if you would consider this in regards
to helping keep Red Creek open.
As a member of the Arizona State Association of Four Wheel Drive Clubs,
I strongly urge you to consider leaving FR18 open for the vehicle
traffic it currently supports. Closing FR18 and eliminating access to
that part of the Verde River would be a great loss to all of us.
Sincerely,
You may contact me at:
--------------76CDDBD62A4D4E3A40737E6A--
5953 From: Stu Olson <solson8@u...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 1:03pm
Subject: Re: Photos of Red Creek 2-00
David,
Your photo album makes a very strong statement about the condition of Red
Creek. Impact, impact, where the hell is the impact on this fragile
ecosystem?
Everyone needs to look at this and see the tremendous lack of green grass
that the crazed AZ range cattle are gobbling up at a tremendous rate! (oh
yeah, don't forget the ba-zillion hoof marks that are widening the creek
channel!)
One should also note that the fish are all gone (of course, I can't imagine
too many fish that would like to live in a 2" deep creek when they have the
entire Verde River to play in.
Did you notice the nasty ruts the off-roaders have carved into the airstrip?
All the fun aside, I believe that the reason Red Creek looks as good as it
does is because of that first group of boulders about a 1/4 mile down Red
Creek. The non-serious 4x4 SUV owners probably turn around and go back
home, and with them their trash, graffiti, beer cans, car parts, etc. In my
general observations of off-roaders that have a vehicle that can easily do
Red Creek with out thinking twice about it, these folks are NOT the ones
that are giving us a bad name! Hence, Red Creek has a trail down it that
looks like it has very little traffic compared to so many other easily
accessible places.
Thanks for letting me rant and rave!
Stu
Stu Olson N7QJP
Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
http://home.off-road.com/~stu
>-----Original Message-----
>From: DavidHouk@w... [mailto:DavidHouk@w...]
>Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 13:12
>To: solson8@u...; az_vjc@egroups.com
>Subject: Photos of Red Creek 2-00
>
>
>Greetings!
>
>David Houk has an album of photos for you to
>see using the FREE PhotoPoint photo sharing service.
>
>Here is a message describing the photos:
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>These pictures of Red Creek Trail were taken less than 2 weeks
>ago. Please send your letter today to help keep the trail open for
>vehicles. Thank you
>
>Send letters to:
>
>Delvin Lopez
>District Ranger
>Tonto National Forest Cave
>Creek Ranger District
>40202 N. Cave Creek Rd.
>Scottsdale, AZ. 85262
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Simply click on the link below to go directly to their photo album
>area on the PhotoPoint web site, where you can see all the photos
>that they have prepared for you.
>
>Photo Album:
> http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=27047&pw=god&a=1884049
>
5954 From: Dave Reinken <daver@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 1:12pm
Subject: Re: [Fwd: FWD: FR 18--Red Creek EA]
I called this person: "If you want a copy of the EA, or if you have
questions, please call Rory Steinke at 480.610.3300" and he was rather
nice and helpful and actually _there_. He is mailing me a copy of the
report TODAY. He said that it is not available anywhere in a machine
readable format, so...
I suggest you call him Stu, and he should be able to send out a copy for
you.
Dave Reinken wrote:
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: FWD: FR 18--Red Creek EA
> Date: 24 Feb 00 13:35:42 -0700
> From: Terry Heslin <theslin@p...>
> Reply-To: Terry Heslin <theslin@p...>
> To: Blind *Copy <theslin@p...>
>
> Outdoor Enthusiasts:
>
> Some electronic messages sent to Forest Service e-mail addresses
> provided previously have bounced. I called Environmental Analysis team
> leader and he said this address should work:
>
> dlopez@f...
> if that won't work, try dlopez/r3_tonto_cavecreek@f...
>
> However, he stated that he was not sure that e-mail messages were being
> accepted for this comment phase. He said he would ask for Delvin
> Lopez's opinion. As before, it is suggested that you print a hardcopy
> of your note/letter and send it to the address provided below in the
> sample letter. If you want a copy of the EA, or if you have questions,
> please call Rory Steinke at 480.610.3300.
> Here is a sample letter from:
>
> Linda Luik
> ASA4WDC Land Use/Conservation Chair
>
> ================================================== =========
>
> Delvin R. Lopez
> District Ranger
> Cave Creek Ranger District
> 40202 N. Cave Creek Road
> Scottsdale, AZ 85262
>
> Dear Mr. Lopez,
>
> It has come to my attention that EA regarding Red Creek Road (Forest
> Road # 18) has only one option to continue to allow OHV use, Alternate
> A. Alternates B-F would eliminate recreation opportunity and reduce
> access along Red Creek and the Verde River. I strongly encourage you to
> select Alternate A when making the final decision on the fate of this
> area along the Verde River. The Red Creek Road last open motorized
> access to the Verde River in the thirty three miles between Child's
> power plant and the Sheep's Bridge. It would be a great loss not only
> to the OHV community but to every one who enjoys the Arizona outdoors.
>
> My reference to the EA, in this letter, was provded by a dear friend and
> fellow outdoor enthusiast. I was unable to obtain a copy of the EA.
>
> I understand that the EA, section 3.6, contains the statement:
>
> "Direct hoof impact on stream banks and utilization of riparian
> vegetation is the primary factor destabilizing stream banks and causing
> the channel to widen."
>
> I spend a lot of time in the desert on BLM, Arizona State Trust Land and
> U.S. Forest land and have spent many pleasant days exploring the area
> in and around the Red Creek Trail. I have never seen evidence of
> cattle causing destabilization of the Red Creek stream bank and/or
> widening of its channel. Most of the times that I have been there the
> creek was relatively narrow (less than 5 feet wide) and only a couple
> inches deep. I have never seen cattle tracks in the water. Every time I
> explore creeks and washes in this area I notice debris left from flash
> floods left high in the rock walls and trees. It is easy to imagine the
> modifications to creek bed each time this happens. Needless to say, it
> is doubtful that either animals or OHVs will modify the Red Creek as
> much as a heavy spring rain.
>
> I am glad to note that the excerpt from section 3.6 do not consider OHV
> use in the area to be a contributing factor to the stream bank
> destabilization. I have never seen evidence of OHV traffic causing
> damage to Red Creek. Mostly because of the rocky "filters" early on in
> the trail that keep all except the most interested back country
> explorers out. Since this trail is also quite remote for most people, I
> don't think it sees a lot of traffic.
>
> I also understand that the cost of closing the road, ($6500 to make it
> inaccessible) and cost of keeping it closed ($1900 per year for law
> enforcement) are expenses that can be avoided or drastically reduced by
> allowing an OHV or 4x4 club to maintain the trail. I would gladly
> support an adopt-a-trail program if you would consider this in regards
> to helping keep Red Creek open.
>
> As a member of the Arizona State Association of Four Wheel Drive Clubs,
> I strongly urge you to consider leaving FR18 open for the vehicle
> traffic it currently supports. Closing FR18 and eliminating access to
> that part of the Verde River would be a great loss to all of us.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> You may contact me at:
>
> --------------76CDDBD62A4D4E3A40737E6A--
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get what you deserve with NextCard Visa! Rates as low as 2.9%
> Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR, online balance transfers, Rewards Points,
> no hidden fees, and much more! Get NextCard today and get the
> credit you deserve! Apply now! Get your NextCard Visa at:
> http://click.egroups.com/1/913/4/_/1966/_/951425770/
>
> eGroups.com Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/az_vjc/
> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
5955 From: <jhershau@S...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 2:56pm
Subject: BFG MTs for sale
Hello,
I've put a classified ad on the eGroups website for my 32x11.5 BFG MT tires.
I just replaced them with BFG AT KOs. The tires have about 8000 miles on
them and two of the tires are in fantastic shape. The other two have uneven
wear from driving on them out of balance (oops) and are a bit noisy on the
road. I'm selling the two good ones and one of the "uneven" ones (you can
use it as a spare) for $120 (for all 3). I figure I'll keep the other one
as a spare for myself.
Thanks,
Jeff (99 TJ)
5956 From: Leonard K. Pennock <leonardpennock@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 5:28pm
Subject: Re: decisions, decisions....
Bryan wrote:
>
> I own a 1988 cherokee with the 4.0L and a 5 speed. I live in flagstaff. My
> dad in globe wants to trade me his 1991 wrangler with the 2.5L 5 speed, soft
> top, and then trade mine in for a new vehicle. I cant decide if I should
> trade. The cherokee's throwout bearing just started making noise and it
> leaks oil (just like every jeep) but I love it to death. The wranger only
> has the 4cyl (read no power) and it has a nasty engine problem where it
> doesnt want to stay on if you let off of the gas suddenly. I know the
> wranger is worth more, but I really like the power of the 4.0L, and I
> actually know what is wrong with the cherokee. What would you do in my
> situation?
>
> --Bryan
> bryan.loveless@n...
>
> p.s. and if I keep the cherokee, how do I get the tranny out to replace the
> throwout bearing?.. the last time I did that it was in a '73 cj-5, and half
> the floorboards came out....
>
> .
I would keep the Cherokee. Then again I'm partial to Air Conditioning
for summer 4 wheeling along with the 4.0L.
(87 XJ, 4.0L).
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
> -- http://www.egroups.com/docvault/az_vjc/?m=1
--
Leonard K. Pennock
Those who walk bravely through life, unafraid of loss or failure,
find that they very rarely lose or fail.
5957 From: . <crusari@p...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 6:35pm
Subject: No Subject
I have a 97 tj unfortunately with the common problem of broken exhaust
manifold I just checked with the dealer unfortunately that is not covered
under emissions warranty since I have 50,000 miles on it I saw an add for
pacesetter headers in a magazine for the 4.0 the header is only $190 was
wondering if anybody heard anything about pacesetter the prices are very
low makes me wonder about the quality.
5958 From: Eric Herring <herring@u...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 5:50pm
Subject: Re: No Subject
Well Pacesetter is located in Phoenix maybe you could drive over there &
check it out. Do you know if they have one for a 91-96 XJ? The Borla one is
a little pricey.
Eric Herring 92XJ
-----Original Message-----
From: . [mailto:crusari@p...]
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 7:35 PM
To: az_vjc@egroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] No Subject
I have a 97 tj unfortunately with the common problem of broken exhaust
manifold I just checked with the dealer unfortunately that is not covered
under emissions warranty since I have 50,000 miles on it I saw an add for
pacesetter headers in a magazine for the 4.0 the header is only $190 was
wondering if anybody heard anything about pacesetter the prices are very
low makes me wonder about the quality.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why wait for a credit decision? Get one instantly! Apply for
the Capital One 9.9% Fixed APR Visa Platinum!
http://click.egroups.com/1/1896/4/_/1966/_/951442362/
-- Create a poll/survey for your group!
-- http://www.egroups.com/vote?listname=az_vjc&m=1
5959 From: Thane & Kim Madrid <thane@t...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 6:11pm
Subject: Our forrests
I live in the White Mountains of AZ. We have seen the closer of the Logging Industry. The closing of the local Sawmill. And now the closing of the Cattle Rancher. The trails up here are becoming far and few in between. With more being closed each and every day. Even in my hometowns back yard the Mountain that I have grown up on has been turned into a Wilderness Area. Without any public notice or meeting. We have had to deal with the introduction of the Mexican Grey Wolf and the road closers that it has brought on us. Although it is a magnificent animal, it is not working. They have to hand feed these Wolves, they can't even hunt for themselves. The latest threat is the introduction of the Grizzly Bear back into the area. This is just an accident waiting to happen! Who comes up with this stuff? This is just some of the stuff that has gone on up here.And people up here still think everything is ok. It hasn't hurt them! Yet! After all the roads are closed then you won't be able to get into our National Forests to enjoy them. We really need to fight this together. All of us!
Thane Madrid
97 tj
5960 From: Lon <robinson@l...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 6:12pm
Subject: Re: No Subject
Myself, I would spend the extra for the Borla. Piece of cake installation, takes about 3 hrs with hand tools.
Lon
----- Original Message -----
From: .
To: az_vjc@egroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 7:35 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] No Subject
I have a 97 tj unfortunately with the common problem of broken exhaust
manifold I just checked with the dealer unfortunately that is not covered
under emissions warranty since I have 50,000 miles on it I saw an add for
pacesetter headers in a magazine for the 4.0 the header is only $190 was
wondering if anybody heard anything about pacesetter the prices are very
low makes me wonder about the quality.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
eGroups.com Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/az_vjc
www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
5961 From: T.J. Gill <ice626@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 6:35pm
Subject: THANX FOR THE HELP
just wanted to thank everyone for the input on my lift kit
question....turns out it was a moot point....I stopped by off-road
unlimited to schedule a time to get my CJ in for the lift and the guy
told me that I could not get a 4" lift on my pre-76 CJ due to the
narrow leaf springs (2" vs 2.5" on 76-later)...but I could get a 2.5"
lift with shackles (which he would discount $25.00 since I was given
the wrong 411 by another salesman).....needless to say I was more than
disappointed....after doing some checking, fly-n-high has a 4" lift for
me and its $25.00 cheaper than off-road unlimited....so, I will be down
there bright and early tomorrow....again, thanx for all the
input....BUT....
I do have another question or two.....what is this I keep reading about
"off sets" for wheels????....I plan on putting 33"x12.5 tires after the
lift....is this off set thing something I should be concerned
about???....ALSO....Bernie mentioned something about a drop pitman arm
for my lift...is this also something I need (the Money Pit loves my
money)???....thanx in advance for the additional help....
5962 From: De Slug <mschwitz@U...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 6:43pm
Subject: Re: No Subject
I'm using a pace setter header and I like it. It fit just fine, and came
with everything I needed. Didn't take much time to instalkl, and seems
to be pretty decent... and alot less expensive than the other headers.
I'm sure I'll get posts saying "You get what you pay for" but so far,
I'm happy with mine. MIKE
<IMG SRC="http://www.u.arizona.edu/~mschwitz/pics/termdoh.jpg"> you can
see it in this picture.
5963 From: Leonard K. Pennock <leonardpennock@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 7:09pm
Subject: Re: No Subject
Might check with lopers on the price of a Borla. When I bought mine it
was only about $100 more than that and is a very well made piece.
"." wrote:
>
> I have a 97 tj unfortunately with the common problem of broken exhaust
> manifold I just checked with the dealer unfortunately that is not covered
> under emissions warranty since I have 50,000 miles on it I saw an add for
> pacesetter headers in a magazine for the 4.0 the header is only $190 was
> wondering if anybody heard anything about pacesetter the prices are very
> low makes me wonder about the quality.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Why wait for a credit decision? Get one instantly! Apply for
> the Capital One 9.9% Fixed APR Visa Platinum!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/1896/4/_/1966/_/951442362/
>
> -- Create a poll/survey for your group!
> -- http://www.egroups.com/vote?listname=az_vjc&m=1
--
Leonard K. Pennock
Those who walk bravely through life, unafraid of loss or failure,
find that they very rarely lose or fail.
5964 From: linda luik <minihummer@w...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 7:18pm
Subject: Re: No Subject
Do you have any handy hints?
I have needed a new one for a few months and am still debating whether I
want to do it myself or just take it to a shop.
Linda
Lon wrote:
> Myself, I would spend the extra for the Borla. Piece of cake
> installation, takes about 3 hrs with hand tools. Lon
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: .
> To: az_vjc@egroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 7:35 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] No Subject
>
>
I have a 97 tj unfortunately with the common problem of broken exhaust
manifold I just checked with the dealer unfortunately that is not covered
under emissions warranty since I have 50,000 miles on it I saw an add for
pacesetter headers in a magazine for the 4.0 the header is only $190 was
wondering if anybody heard anything about pacesetter the prices are very
low makes me wonder about the quality.
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> eGroups.com Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/az_vjc
> www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> eGroups.com Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/az_vjc
> www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
5965 From: linda luik <minihummer@w...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 7:21pm
Subject: Re: Our forrests
The Rim Country 4-Wheelers have been taking up the challenge of keeping
trails open up on the Rim. You can contact them via Frank Noel
sheepdip@g...
Linda
Thane & Kim Madrid wrote:
> I live in the White Mountains of AZ. We have seen the closer of the
> Logging Industry. The closing of the local Sawmill. And now the
> closing of the Cattle Rancher. The trails up here are becoming far and
> few in between. With more being closed each and every day. Even in my
> hometowns back yard the Mountain that I have grown up on has been
> turned into a Wilderness Area. Without any public notice or meeting.
> We have had to deal with the introduction of the Mexican Grey Wolf and
> the road closers that it has brought on us. Although it is a
> magnificent animal, it is not working. They have to hand feed these
> Wolves, they can't even hunt for themselves. The latest threat is the
> introduction of the Grizzly Bear back into the area. This is just an
> accident waiting to happen! Who comes up with this stuff? This is just
> some of the stuff that has gone on up here.And people up here still
> think everything is ok. It hasn't hurt them! Yet! After all the roads
> are closed then you won't be able to get into our National Forests to
> enjoy them. We really need to fight this together. All of us! Thane
> Madrid97 tj
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> eGroups.com Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/az_vjc
> www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
5941 From: Matt Barker <azjeeps@f...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 0:03pm
Subject: Re: Run Mon. 2/28
Maybe a chance to try out my new lift... As long as I can get it installed
this weekend. I would have to come up from Sierra Vista, so somewhere
around Tucson would be good. My YJ will be pretty much stock other than the
lift and 33's with disconnects.
Matt B.
94 YJ
http://azjeeps.web.com
Range Riders 4 Wheelers
Arizona Virtual Jeep Club
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
5942 From: DougB <azjeep@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 0:05pm
Subject: Re: bad e-mail address for Red Creek
They're probably all out doing a trail run down Red Creek before it closes.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Reinken <daver@c...>
To: Stu Olson <solson8@u...>; az_vjc <az_vjc@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 10:24 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: bad e-mail address for Red Creek
> I was told that _everyone_ is out of the office and unavailable today.
> I am welcome to call back tomorrow, when someone "hopefully" (their
> words) will be in the office.
>
> Hell of a way to run a railroad, I tell ya.
>
> I'll probably take off work early tomorrow, drive up there and camp in
> their office until I get something, if I can't get them to give me any
> info tomorrow AM.
>
> Heck, I can pick up the kids from school on the way. If wild boys
> running through their office doesn't motivate them, I don't know what
> will.
>
> Dave Reinken wrote:
> >
> > I got shuffled around on the phone with these people yesterday afternoon
> > (U: You need to talk to X over here. X: No, you need to talk to Y over
> > at this location. Y: No you need to talk to Z back where X is. Z: Not
> > available, left message. Aggravating.) I'll be starting in on them
> > again this AM. I'll see if I can get a valid email address for Mr.
> > Lopez, along with some copies (preferably machine readable) of the
> > actual report in question.
> >
> > Stu Olson wrote:
> > >
> > > The e-mail address for Forest Ranger Lopez bounced. I have it as:
> > >
> > > dlopez/r3_tonto@f...
> > >
> > > Does anyone else have a valid one? I got this one from Dave Reinken's
> > > e-mail notice about Red Creek.
> > >
> > > Thanks.......Stu
> > >
> > > Stu Olson N7QJP
> > > Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
> > > http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
> > > http://home.off-road.com/~stu
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> eGroups.com Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/az_vjc/
> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
>
>
>
5943 From: DougB <azjeep@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 0:08pm
Subject: Re: better news about forests
Thanks for posting this, Stu...it is nice to see that opposition is
building. We need to continue to be active, or else the radical minority
will get their way and the public will be denied access to public lands.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: Stu Olson <solson8@u...>
To: az_vjc <az_vjc@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 11:36 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] better news about forests
> http://www.denverpost.com/news/news0224l.htm
>
> Stu Olson N7QJP
> Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
> http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
> http://home.off-road.com/~stu
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -- Talk to your group with your own voice!
> -- http://www.egroups.com/VoiceChatPage?listName=az_vjc&m=1
>
>
5944 From: DougB <azjeep@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 0:18pm
Subject: Re: Run Mon. 2/28
There's a write up on our Web page www.azvjc.web.com , but to summarize, a
class 5 trail is for extremely modified vehicles only (35's +, lockers fore
and aft, minimum 60:1 crawl rate, winch, and diapers all mandatory).
Winching may be/is required for even the most tricked out vehicle.
I know of no class 5 in Tucson. Chiva Falls is a 3+ to a 4 (as I recall it)
There are different rating systems out there, but we use the 1 to 5 scale.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: Stu Olson <solson8@u...>
To: Hal Loy <tucsonhal@e...>; <az_vjc@eGroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 12:30 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Run Mon. 2/28
> I need to calibrate myself. I use the Moab trail rating system where a 5
> stops any and every vehicle from going on.
>
> What rating system is used here by the VJC? (ie., the range of the scale)
>
> Stu
>
> Stu Olson N7QJP
> Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
> http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
> http://home.off-road.com/~stu
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Hal Loy [mailto:tucsonhal@e...]
> >Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 12:22
> >To: az_vjc@eGroups.com
> >Subject: [az_vjc] Run Mon. 2/28
> >
> >
> >I would like to take a run Mon. 2/28, I don't have a destination in
> >mind yet, but Rice Peak was suggested, someone else would need to lead
> >that one as I've never been there. I can lead to Chiva Falls or
> >Charleou Gap but anywhere in the lower half of the state would be fine
> >if we can get a leader. I can run 4+'s and enjoy 5's (I only have 31"
> >tires and may need to be strapped or winched depending on the severity
> >of the obsticles on a 5).
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >-- Create a poll/survey for your group!
> >-- http://www.egroups.com/vote?listname=az_vjc&m=1
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> eGroups.com Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/az_vjc/
> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
>
>
>
5945 From: Stu Olson <solson8@u...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 0:23pm
Subject: Re: USFS management
Linda,
What you say may be true of some USFS rangers, and giving a vague answer is
certainly a safe way to keep one's job (I don't wish anyone to lose their
job). However, I will not agree that all USFS rangers are on our side. I
have encountered multiple rangers while doing recreational prospecting in
the Prescott National Forest. It was clear, clear as crystal, that the
ranger not only did not want me legally prospecting on my claim, he did not
want me in HIS forest.
A good Jeeping friend of mine (retired engineer) recently spoke with a Tonto
forest ranger about an old stagecoach trail that the forest service had
posted closed during the past couple of years. His experience in speaking
with the ranger was as negative as was mine. He told me that it was quite
obvious that he was not wanted on any Jeep trails in that forest. The
ranger told him that they were trying to close as many trails as possible to
keep him and his friends out of the forest.
Again, I will agree that there are certainly some USFS rangers that don't
agree with their management's policy. However, I personally have not met
them yet and I also have not spoken to anyone who has had any positive
experiences with a ranger in the past year or two.
Just my observation of life.......Stu
Stu Olson N7QJP
Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
http://home.off-road.com/~stu
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Linda Luik [mailto:p14175@e...]
>Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 12:50
>To: Stu Olson
>Cc: Dave Reinken; az_vjc
>Subject: USFS management
>
>
>Please remember that the USFS rangers are on our side. They have been
>instructed by their management not to speak to the public about
>certain forest
>policies and projects. So if they seem a bit vaque in their anwers
>it could be
>that they just don't want to lose their jobs. They are really
>caught between a
>rock and a hard place.
>
>Linda
5946 From: Stu Olson <solson8@u...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 0:24pm
Subject: Re: Trail Ratings example
This is what I am use to using as a trail rating system.
Stu Olson N7QJP
Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
http://home.off-road.com/~stu
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Leah Eliscu [mailto:eliscu@m...]
>Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 12:54
>To: az_vjc@egroups.com
>Subject: [az_vjc] Trail Ratings example
>
>
>Following is a commonly used rating system
>
>
>
> 1 Rating
>All weather road; 4WD not needed
>
>
>
>1.5 Rating
>Graded road; 4WD may be needed in poor weather
>
>
>
>2 Rating
>Unimproved or rarely graded road. 4WD or extra clearance needed
> at times, with no special driving skills required
>
>
>
>2.5 Rating
>Road rarely maintained, 4WD, good clearance, low gears often
> needed, with some extra care and a bit of driving experience useful
>
>
>
> 3 Rating
>Road in difficult terrain, rarely maintained, 4WD, good clearance,
>and low gears essential, with some driving skill and daring
>required
>
>
>
>3.5 Rating
>Road in difficult terrain, probably maintained only by occasional
>users. Excellent stock truck or utility vehicle required, with
>considerable driving skill and daring needed
>
>
>
>4 Rating
>Trail either never bladed or badly eroded. Stock vehicles are in
>jeopardy. Modifications for improved off-road performance and top
>driving skills needed
>
>
>
>4+ Rating
>We can hardly improve on the original description written a few
>years ago by Jack Bickers: "with driving by World Class Yahoo
>Jeepers not much concerned with vehicle durability or personal
>safety." It is common to have as many as 10 percent of the vehicles
>experience major mechanical failures (gears, axles, driveshafts) on
>these trails.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-- Create a poll/survey for your group!
>-- http://www.egroups.com/vote?listname=az_vjc&m=1
>
>
>
5947 From: Hal Loy <tucsonhal@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 0:32pm
Subject: Re: Run Mon. 2/28
where we meet will be dependant on where we go, keep an eye on the
message board and I'll let you know as we get closer and confirm that
anyone other than me will be there. - Hal 93 YJ
"matt barker" <azjeep-@f...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/az_vjc/?start=5941
> Maybe a chance to try out my new lift... As long as I can get it
installed
> this weekend. I would have to come up from Sierra Vista, so somewhere
> around Tucson would be good. My YJ will be pretty much stock other
than the
> lift and 33's with disconnects.
>
> Matt B.
> 94 YJ
> http://azjeeps.web.com
> Range Riders 4 Wheelers
> Arizona Virtual Jeep Club
>
5948 From: Linda Luik <p14175@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 0:33pm
Subject: Re: USFS management
I have never experinced that sort of attitude from any USFS ranger. I my
encounters have been positive.
I don't know what to say......
Linda
Stu Olson wrote:
>
> Linda,
>
> What you say may be true of some USFS rangers, and giving a vague answer is
> certainly a safe way to keep one's job (I don't wish anyone to lose their
> job). However, I will not agree that all USFS rangers are on our side. I
> have encountered multiple rangers while doing recreational prospecting in
> the Prescott National Forest. It was clear, clear as crystal, that the
> ranger not only did not want me legally prospecting on my claim, he did not
> want me in HIS forest.
>
> A good Jeeping friend of mine (retired engineer) recently spoke with a Tonto
> forest ranger about an old stagecoach trail that the forest service had
> posted closed during the past couple of years. His experience in speaking
> with the ranger was as negative as was mine. He told me that it was quite
> obvious that he was not wanted on any Jeep trails in that forest. The
> ranger told him that they were trying to close as many trails as possible to
> keep him and his friends out of the forest.
>
> Again, I will agree that there are certainly some USFS rangers that don't
> agree with their management's policy. However, I personally have not met
> them yet and I also have not spoken to anyone who has had any positive
> experiences with a ranger in the past year or two.
>
> Just my observation of life.......Stu
>
> Stu Olson N7QJP
> Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
> http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
> http://home.off-road.com/~stu
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Linda Luik [mailto:p14175@email.sps.mot.com]
> >Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 12:50
> >To: Stu Olson
> >Cc: Dave Reinken; az_vjc
> >Subject: USFS management
> >
> >
> >Please remember that the USFS rangers are on our side. They have been
> >instructed by their management not to speak to the public about
> >certain forest
> >policies and projects. So if they seem a bit vaque in their anwers
> >it could be
> >that they just don't want to lose their jobs. They are really
> >caught between a
> >rock and a hard place.
> >
> >Linda
Attachment: vcard [not shown]
5949 From: Stu Olson <solson8@u...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 0:34pm
Subject: Re: Photos of Red Creek 2-00
I don't have an album full of photos, but I have these Red Creek photos to
offer to anyone who has not had a chance to visit:
http://home.off-road.com/~stu/others/other4b.htm
This was without a doubt THE best trip I took last year.
Please folks, write a letter (address below) and tell the USFS that you want
FR18 and Red Creek left open to vehicle traffic. This trail is too
beautiful to give up!
Stu
Stu Olson N7QJP
Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
http://home.off-road.com/~stu
>-----Original Message-----
>From: DavidHouk@w... [mailto:DavidHouk@w...]
>Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 13:12
>To: solson8@u...; az_vjc@egroups.com
>Subject: Photos of Red Creek 2-00
>
>
>Greetings!
>
>David Houk has an album of photos for you to
>see using the FREE PhotoPoint photo sharing service.
>
>Here is a message describing the photos:
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>These pictures of Red Creek Trail were taken less than 2 weeks
>ago. Please send your letter today to help keep the trail open for
>vehicles. Thank you
>
>Send letters to:
>
>Delvin Lopez
>District Ranger
>Tonto National Forest Cave
>Creek Ranger District
>40202 N. Cave Creek Rd.
>Scottsdale, AZ. 85262
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Simply click on the link below to go directly to their photo album
>area on the PhotoPoint web site, where you can see all the photos
>that they have prepared for you.
>
>Photo Album:
> http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=27047&pw=god&a=1884049
>
>AOL Users:
> <a
>href="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=27047&pw=god&a=18
>84049">Click Here</a>
>
>Click on the link above to see the photos. If neither of the links
>are clickable, simply cut and paste the first link into your web browser.
>
>If you would like to know how to share your own photos using the
>free PhotoPoint service, click on this link:
>
> http://www.photopoint.com/
>
>The PhotoPoint server is a free service courtesy of Pantellic
>Software. We hope you find it useful!
>
>-PhotoPoint Automated Attendant
>
>
5950 From: Stu Olson <solson8@u...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 0:48pm
Subject: Re: USFS management
I am sure that is true, Linda. USFS rangers are just people, like you and
I. Although most off-roaders are good and considerate people, I have met
some that are just the opposite. Let's hope that the number of rangers on
our side heavily out-weight the ones that aren't!
Stu
Stu Olson N7QJP
Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
http://home.off-road.com/~stu
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Linda Luik [mailto:p14175@e...]
>Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 13:33
>To: Stu Olson
>Cc: az_vjc
>Subject: Re: USFS management
>
>
>I have never experinced that sort of attitude from any USFS ranger. I my
>encounters have been positive.
>I don't know what to say......
>
>Linda
>
>
>Stu Olson wrote:
>>
>> Linda,
>>
>> What you say may be true of some USFS rangers, and giving a
>vague answer is
>> certainly a safe way to keep one's job (I don't wish anyone to lose their
>> job). However, I will not agree that all USFS rangers are on
>our side. I
>> have encountered multiple rangers while doing recreational prospecting in
>> the Prescott National Forest. It was clear, clear as crystal, that the
>> ranger not only did not want me legally prospecting on my claim,
>he did not
>> want me in HIS forest.
>>
>> A good Jeeping friend of mine (retired engineer) recently spoke
>with a Tonto
>> forest ranger about an old stagecoach trail that the forest service had
>> posted closed during the past couple of years. His experience
>in speaking
>> with the ranger was as negative as was mine. He told me that it
>was quite
>> obvious that he was not wanted on any Jeep trails in that forest. The
>> ranger told him that they were trying to close as many trails as
>possible to
>> keep him and his friends out of the forest.
>>
>> Again, I will agree that there are certainly some USFS rangers that don't
>> agree with their management's policy. However, I personally have not met
>> them yet and I also have not spoken to anyone who has had any positive
>> experiences with a ranger in the past year or two.
>>
>> Just my observation of life.......Stu
>>
>> Stu Olson N7QJP
>> Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
>> http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
>> http://home.off-road.com/~stu
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Linda Luik [mailto:p14175@e...]
>> >Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 12:50
>> >To: Stu Olson
>> >Cc: Dave Reinken; az_vjc
>> >Subject: USFS management
>> >
>> >
>> >Please remember that the USFS rangers are on our side. They have been
>> >instructed by their management not to speak to the public about
>> >certain forest
>> >policies and projects. So if they seem a bit vaque in their anwers
>> >it could be
>> >that they just don't want to lose their jobs. They are really
>> >caught between a
>> >rock and a hard place.
>> >
>> >Linda
5951 From: Dave Reinken <daver@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 0:57pm
Subject: Re: USFS management
I too have had all good experiences with USFS Rangers. I'm not taking
too much more run-around on getting a copy of this report, though. I
will, however, certainly be courteous and respectful, but firm and
fervent in my efforts to obtain it and have my voice heard.
Linda Luik wrote:
>
> I have never experinced that sort of attitude from any USFS ranger. I my
> encounters have been positive.
> I don't know what to say......
>
> Linda
>
> Stu Olson wrote:
> >
> > Linda,
> >
> > What you say may be true of some USFS rangers, and giving a vague answer is
> > certainly a safe way to keep one's job (I don't wish anyone to lose their
> > job). However, I will not agree that all USFS rangers are on our side. I
> > have encountered multiple rangers while doing recreational prospecting in
> > the Prescott National Forest. It was clear, clear as crystal, that the
> > ranger not only did not want me legally prospecting on my claim, he did not
> > want me in HIS forest.
> >
> > A good Jeeping friend of mine (retired engineer) recently spoke with a Tonto
> > forest ranger about an old stagecoach trail that the forest service had
> > posted closed during the past couple of years. His experience in speaking
> > with the ranger was as negative as was mine. He told me that it was quite
> > obvious that he was not wanted on any Jeep trails in that forest. The
> > ranger told him that they were trying to close as many trails as possible to
> > keep him and his friends out of the forest.
> >
> > Again, I will agree that there are certainly some USFS rangers that don't
> > agree with their management's policy. However, I personally have not met
> > them yet and I also have not spoken to anyone who has had any positive
> > experiences with a ranger in the past year or two.
> >
> > Just my observation of life.......Stu
> >
> > Stu Olson N7QJP
> > Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
> > http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
> > http://home.off-road.com/~stu
> >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Linda Luik [mailto:p14175@e...]
> > >Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 12:50
> > >To: Stu Olson
> > >Cc: Dave Reinken; az_vjc
> > >Subject: USFS management
> > >
> > >
> > >Please remember that the USFS rangers are on our side. They have been
> > >instructed by their management not to speak to the public about
> > >certain forest
> > >policies and projects. So if they seem a bit vaque in their anwers
> > >it could be
> > >that they just don't want to lose their jobs. They are really
> > >caught between a
> > >rock and a hard place.
> > >
> > >Linda
5952 From: Dave Reinken <daver@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 0:58pm
Subject: [Fwd: FWD: FR 18--Red Creek EA]
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: FWD: FR 18--Red Creek EA
Date: 24 Feb 00 13:35:42 -0700
From: Terry Heslin <theslin@p...>
Reply-To: Terry Heslin <theslin@p...>
To: Blind *Copy <theslin@p...>
Outdoor Enthusiasts:
Some electronic messages sent to Forest Service e-mail addresses
provided previously have bounced. I called Environmental Analysis team
leader and he said this address should work:
dlopez@f...
if that won't work, try dlopez/r3_tonto_cavecreek@f...
However, he stated that he was not sure that e-mail messages were being
accepted for this comment phase. He said he would ask for Delvin
Lopez's opinion. As before, it is suggested that you print a hardcopy
of your note/letter and send it to the address provided below in the
sample letter. If you want a copy of the EA, or if you have questions,
please call Rory Steinke at 480.610.3300.
Here is a sample letter from:
Linda Luik
ASA4WDC Land Use/Conservation Chair
================================================== =========
Delvin R. Lopez
District Ranger
Cave Creek Ranger District
40202 N. Cave Creek Road
Scottsdale, AZ 85262
Dear Mr. Lopez,
It has come to my attention that EA regarding Red Creek Road (Forest
Road # 18) has only one option to continue to allow OHV use, Alternate
A. Alternates B-F would eliminate recreation opportunity and reduce
access along Red Creek and the Verde River. I strongly encourage you to
select Alternate A when making the final decision on the fate of this
area along the Verde River. The Red Creek Road last open motorized
access to the Verde River in the thirty three miles between Child's
power plant and the Sheep's Bridge. It would be a great loss not only
to the OHV community but to every one who enjoys the Arizona outdoors.
My reference to the EA, in this letter, was provded by a dear friend and
fellow outdoor enthusiast. I was unable to obtain a copy of the EA.
I understand that the EA, section 3.6, contains the statement:
"Direct hoof impact on stream banks and utilization of riparian
vegetation is the primary factor destabilizing stream banks and causing
the channel to widen."
I spend a lot of time in the desert on BLM, Arizona State Trust Land and
U.S. Forest land and have spent many pleasant days exploring the area
in and around the Red Creek Trail. I have never seen evidence of
cattle causing destabilization of the Red Creek stream bank and/or
widening of its channel. Most of the times that I have been there the
creek was relatively narrow (less than 5 feet wide) and only a couple
inches deep. I have never seen cattle tracks in the water. Every time I
explore creeks and washes in this area I notice debris left from flash
floods left high in the rock walls and trees. It is easy to imagine the
modifications to creek bed each time this happens. Needless to say, it
is doubtful that either animals or OHVs will modify the Red Creek as
much as a heavy spring rain.
I am glad to note that the excerpt from section 3.6 do not consider OHV
use in the area to be a contributing factor to the stream bank
destabilization. I have never seen evidence of OHV traffic causing
damage to Red Creek. Mostly because of the rocky "filters" early on in
the trail that keep all except the most interested back country
explorers out. Since this trail is also quite remote for most people, I
don't think it sees a lot of traffic.
I also understand that the cost of closing the road, ($6500 to make it
inaccessible) and cost of keeping it closed ($1900 per year for law
enforcement) are expenses that can be avoided or drastically reduced by
allowing an OHV or 4x4 club to maintain the trail. I would gladly
support an adopt-a-trail program if you would consider this in regards
to helping keep Red Creek open.
As a member of the Arizona State Association of Four Wheel Drive Clubs,
I strongly urge you to consider leaving FR18 open for the vehicle
traffic it currently supports. Closing FR18 and eliminating access to
that part of the Verde River would be a great loss to all of us.
Sincerely,
You may contact me at:
--------------76CDDBD62A4D4E3A40737E6A--
5953 From: Stu Olson <solson8@u...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 1:03pm
Subject: Re: Photos of Red Creek 2-00
David,
Your photo album makes a very strong statement about the condition of Red
Creek. Impact, impact, where the hell is the impact on this fragile
ecosystem?
Everyone needs to look at this and see the tremendous lack of green grass
that the crazed AZ range cattle are gobbling up at a tremendous rate! (oh
yeah, don't forget the ba-zillion hoof marks that are widening the creek
channel!)
One should also note that the fish are all gone (of course, I can't imagine
too many fish that would like to live in a 2" deep creek when they have the
entire Verde River to play in.
Did you notice the nasty ruts the off-roaders have carved into the airstrip?
All the fun aside, I believe that the reason Red Creek looks as good as it
does is because of that first group of boulders about a 1/4 mile down Red
Creek. The non-serious 4x4 SUV owners probably turn around and go back
home, and with them their trash, graffiti, beer cans, car parts, etc. In my
general observations of off-roaders that have a vehicle that can easily do
Red Creek with out thinking twice about it, these folks are NOT the ones
that are giving us a bad name! Hence, Red Creek has a trail down it that
looks like it has very little traffic compared to so many other easily
accessible places.
Thanks for letting me rant and rave!
Stu
Stu Olson N7QJP
Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
http://www.users.uswest.net/~solson8
http://home.off-road.com/~stu
>-----Original Message-----
>From: DavidHouk@w... [mailto:DavidHouk@w...]
>Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 13:12
>To: solson8@u...; az_vjc@egroups.com
>Subject: Photos of Red Creek 2-00
>
>
>Greetings!
>
>David Houk has an album of photos for you to
>see using the FREE PhotoPoint photo sharing service.
>
>Here is a message describing the photos:
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>These pictures of Red Creek Trail were taken less than 2 weeks
>ago. Please send your letter today to help keep the trail open for
>vehicles. Thank you
>
>Send letters to:
>
>Delvin Lopez
>District Ranger
>Tonto National Forest Cave
>Creek Ranger District
>40202 N. Cave Creek Rd.
>Scottsdale, AZ. 85262
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Simply click on the link below to go directly to their photo album
>area on the PhotoPoint web site, where you can see all the photos
>that they have prepared for you.
>
>Photo Album:
> http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=27047&pw=god&a=1884049
>
5954 From: Dave Reinken <daver@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 1:12pm
Subject: Re: [Fwd: FWD: FR 18--Red Creek EA]
I called this person: "If you want a copy of the EA, or if you have
questions, please call Rory Steinke at 480.610.3300" and he was rather
nice and helpful and actually _there_. He is mailing me a copy of the
report TODAY. He said that it is not available anywhere in a machine
readable format, so...
I suggest you call him Stu, and he should be able to send out a copy for
you.
Dave Reinken wrote:
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: FWD: FR 18--Red Creek EA
> Date: 24 Feb 00 13:35:42 -0700
> From: Terry Heslin <theslin@p...>
> Reply-To: Terry Heslin <theslin@p...>
> To: Blind *Copy <theslin@p...>
>
> Outdoor Enthusiasts:
>
> Some electronic messages sent to Forest Service e-mail addresses
> provided previously have bounced. I called Environmental Analysis team
> leader and he said this address should work:
>
> dlopez@f...
> if that won't work, try dlopez/r3_tonto_cavecreek@f...
>
> However, he stated that he was not sure that e-mail messages were being
> accepted for this comment phase. He said he would ask for Delvin
> Lopez's opinion. As before, it is suggested that you print a hardcopy
> of your note/letter and send it to the address provided below in the
> sample letter. If you want a copy of the EA, or if you have questions,
> please call Rory Steinke at 480.610.3300.
> Here is a sample letter from:
>
> Linda Luik
> ASA4WDC Land Use/Conservation Chair
>
> ================================================== =========
>
> Delvin R. Lopez
> District Ranger
> Cave Creek Ranger District
> 40202 N. Cave Creek Road
> Scottsdale, AZ 85262
>
> Dear Mr. Lopez,
>
> It has come to my attention that EA regarding Red Creek Road (Forest
> Road # 18) has only one option to continue to allow OHV use, Alternate
> A. Alternates B-F would eliminate recreation opportunity and reduce
> access along Red Creek and the Verde River. I strongly encourage you to
> select Alternate A when making the final decision on the fate of this
> area along the Verde River. The Red Creek Road last open motorized
> access to the Verde River in the thirty three miles between Child's
> power plant and the Sheep's Bridge. It would be a great loss not only
> to the OHV community but to every one who enjoys the Arizona outdoors.
>
> My reference to the EA, in this letter, was provded by a dear friend and
> fellow outdoor enthusiast. I was unable to obtain a copy of the EA.
>
> I understand that the EA, section 3.6, contains the statement:
>
> "Direct hoof impact on stream banks and utilization of riparian
> vegetation is the primary factor destabilizing stream banks and causing
> the channel to widen."
>
> I spend a lot of time in the desert on BLM, Arizona State Trust Land and
> U.S. Forest land and have spent many pleasant days exploring the area
> in and around the Red Creek Trail. I have never seen evidence of
> cattle causing destabilization of the Red Creek stream bank and/or
> widening of its channel. Most of the times that I have been there the
> creek was relatively narrow (less than 5 feet wide) and only a couple
> inches deep. I have never seen cattle tracks in the water. Every time I
> explore creeks and washes in this area I notice debris left from flash
> floods left high in the rock walls and trees. It is easy to imagine the
> modifications to creek bed each time this happens. Needless to say, it
> is doubtful that either animals or OHVs will modify the Red Creek as
> much as a heavy spring rain.
>
> I am glad to note that the excerpt from section 3.6 do not consider OHV
> use in the area to be a contributing factor to the stream bank
> destabilization. I have never seen evidence of OHV traffic causing
> damage to Red Creek. Mostly because of the rocky "filters" early on in
> the trail that keep all except the most interested back country
> explorers out. Since this trail is also quite remote for most people, I
> don't think it sees a lot of traffic.
>
> I also understand that the cost of closing the road, ($6500 to make it
> inaccessible) and cost of keeping it closed ($1900 per year for law
> enforcement) are expenses that can be avoided or drastically reduced by
> allowing an OHV or 4x4 club to maintain the trail. I would gladly
> support an adopt-a-trail program if you would consider this in regards
> to helping keep Red Creek open.
>
> As a member of the Arizona State Association of Four Wheel Drive Clubs,
> I strongly urge you to consider leaving FR18 open for the vehicle
> traffic it currently supports. Closing FR18 and eliminating access to
> that part of the Verde River would be a great loss to all of us.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> You may contact me at:
>
> --------------76CDDBD62A4D4E3A40737E6A--
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get what you deserve with NextCard Visa! Rates as low as 2.9%
> Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR, online balance transfers, Rewards Points,
> no hidden fees, and much more! Get NextCard today and get the
> credit you deserve! Apply now! Get your NextCard Visa at:
> http://click.egroups.com/1/913/4/_/1966/_/951425770/
>
> eGroups.com Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/az_vjc/
> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
5955 From: <jhershau@S...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 2:56pm
Subject: BFG MTs for sale
Hello,
I've put a classified ad on the eGroups website for my 32x11.5 BFG MT tires.
I just replaced them with BFG AT KOs. The tires have about 8000 miles on
them and two of the tires are in fantastic shape. The other two have uneven
wear from driving on them out of balance (oops) and are a bit noisy on the
road. I'm selling the two good ones and one of the "uneven" ones (you can
use it as a spare) for $120 (for all 3). I figure I'll keep the other one
as a spare for myself.
Thanks,
Jeff (99 TJ)
5956 From: Leonard K. Pennock <leonardpennock@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 5:28pm
Subject: Re: decisions, decisions....
Bryan wrote:
>
> I own a 1988 cherokee with the 4.0L and a 5 speed. I live in flagstaff. My
> dad in globe wants to trade me his 1991 wrangler with the 2.5L 5 speed, soft
> top, and then trade mine in for a new vehicle. I cant decide if I should
> trade. The cherokee's throwout bearing just started making noise and it
> leaks oil (just like every jeep) but I love it to death. The wranger only
> has the 4cyl (read no power) and it has a nasty engine problem where it
> doesnt want to stay on if you let off of the gas suddenly. I know the
> wranger is worth more, but I really like the power of the 4.0L, and I
> actually know what is wrong with the cherokee. What would you do in my
> situation?
>
> --Bryan
> bryan.loveless@n...
>
> p.s. and if I keep the cherokee, how do I get the tranny out to replace the
> throwout bearing?.. the last time I did that it was in a '73 cj-5, and half
> the floorboards came out....
>
> .
I would keep the Cherokee. Then again I'm partial to Air Conditioning
for summer 4 wheeling along with the 4.0L.
(87 XJ, 4.0L).
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
> -- http://www.egroups.com/docvault/az_vjc/?m=1
--
Leonard K. Pennock
Those who walk bravely through life, unafraid of loss or failure,
find that they very rarely lose or fail.
5957 From: . <crusari@p...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 6:35pm
Subject: No Subject
I have a 97 tj unfortunately with the common problem of broken exhaust
manifold I just checked with the dealer unfortunately that is not covered
under emissions warranty since I have 50,000 miles on it I saw an add for
pacesetter headers in a magazine for the 4.0 the header is only $190 was
wondering if anybody heard anything about pacesetter the prices are very
low makes me wonder about the quality.
5958 From: Eric Herring <herring@u...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 5:50pm
Subject: Re: No Subject
Well Pacesetter is located in Phoenix maybe you could drive over there &
check it out. Do you know if they have one for a 91-96 XJ? The Borla one is
a little pricey.
Eric Herring 92XJ
-----Original Message-----
From: . [mailto:crusari@p...]
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 7:35 PM
To: az_vjc@egroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] No Subject
I have a 97 tj unfortunately with the common problem of broken exhaust
manifold I just checked with the dealer unfortunately that is not covered
under emissions warranty since I have 50,000 miles on it I saw an add for
pacesetter headers in a magazine for the 4.0 the header is only $190 was
wondering if anybody heard anything about pacesetter the prices are very
low makes me wonder about the quality.
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5959 From: Thane & Kim Madrid <thane@t...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 6:11pm
Subject: Our forrests
I live in the White Mountains of AZ. We have seen the closer of the Logging Industry. The closing of the local Sawmill. And now the closing of the Cattle Rancher. The trails up here are becoming far and few in between. With more being closed each and every day. Even in my hometowns back yard the Mountain that I have grown up on has been turned into a Wilderness Area. Without any public notice or meeting. We have had to deal with the introduction of the Mexican Grey Wolf and the road closers that it has brought on us. Although it is a magnificent animal, it is not working. They have to hand feed these Wolves, they can't even hunt for themselves. The latest threat is the introduction of the Grizzly Bear back into the area. This is just an accident waiting to happen! Who comes up with this stuff? This is just some of the stuff that has gone on up here.And people up here still think everything is ok. It hasn't hurt them! Yet! After all the roads are closed then you won't be able to get into our National Forests to enjoy them. We really need to fight this together. All of us!
Thane Madrid
97 tj
5960 From: Lon <robinson@l...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 6:12pm
Subject: Re: No Subject
Myself, I would spend the extra for the Borla. Piece of cake installation, takes about 3 hrs with hand tools.
Lon
----- Original Message -----
From: .
To: az_vjc@egroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 7:35 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] No Subject
I have a 97 tj unfortunately with the common problem of broken exhaust
manifold I just checked with the dealer unfortunately that is not covered
under emissions warranty since I have 50,000 miles on it I saw an add for
pacesetter headers in a magazine for the 4.0 the header is only $190 was
wondering if anybody heard anything about pacesetter the prices are very
low makes me wonder about the quality.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
5961 From: T.J. Gill <ice626@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 6:35pm
Subject: THANX FOR THE HELP
just wanted to thank everyone for the input on my lift kit
question....turns out it was a moot point....I stopped by off-road
unlimited to schedule a time to get my CJ in for the lift and the guy
told me that I could not get a 4" lift on my pre-76 CJ due to the
narrow leaf springs (2" vs 2.5" on 76-later)...but I could get a 2.5"
lift with shackles (which he would discount $25.00 since I was given
the wrong 411 by another salesman).....needless to say I was more than
disappointed....after doing some checking, fly-n-high has a 4" lift for
me and its $25.00 cheaper than off-road unlimited....so, I will be down
there bright and early tomorrow....again, thanx for all the
input....BUT....
I do have another question or two.....what is this I keep reading about
"off sets" for wheels????....I plan on putting 33"x12.5 tires after the
lift....is this off set thing something I should be concerned
about???....ALSO....Bernie mentioned something about a drop pitman arm
for my lift...is this also something I need (the Money Pit loves my
money)???....thanx in advance for the additional help....
5962 From: De Slug <mschwitz@U...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 6:43pm
Subject: Re: No Subject
I'm using a pace setter header and I like it. It fit just fine, and came
with everything I needed. Didn't take much time to instalkl, and seems
to be pretty decent... and alot less expensive than the other headers.
I'm sure I'll get posts saying "You get what you pay for" but so far,
I'm happy with mine. MIKE
<IMG SRC="http://www.u.arizona.edu/~mschwitz/pics/termdoh.jpg"> you can
see it in this picture.
5963 From: Leonard K. Pennock <leonardpennock@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 7:09pm
Subject: Re: No Subject
Might check with lopers on the price of a Borla. When I bought mine it
was only about $100 more than that and is a very well made piece.
"." wrote:
>
> I have a 97 tj unfortunately with the common problem of broken exhaust
> manifold I just checked with the dealer unfortunately that is not covered
> under emissions warranty since I have 50,000 miles on it I saw an add for
> pacesetter headers in a magazine for the 4.0 the header is only $190 was
> wondering if anybody heard anything about pacesetter the prices are very
> low makes me wonder about the quality.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Why wait for a credit decision? Get one instantly! Apply for
> the Capital One 9.9% Fixed APR Visa Platinum!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/1896/4/_/1966/_/951442362/
>
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> -- http://www.egroups.com/vote?listname=az_vjc&m=1
--
Leonard K. Pennock
Those who walk bravely through life, unafraid of loss or failure,
find that they very rarely lose or fail.
5964 From: linda luik <minihummer@w...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 7:18pm
Subject: Re: No Subject
Do you have any handy hints?
I have needed a new one for a few months and am still debating whether I
want to do it myself or just take it to a shop.
Linda
Lon wrote:
> Myself, I would spend the extra for the Borla. Piece of cake
> installation, takes about 3 hrs with hand tools. Lon
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: .
> To: az_vjc@egroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 7:35 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] No Subject
>
>
I have a 97 tj unfortunately with the common problem of broken exhaust
manifold I just checked with the dealer unfortunately that is not covered
under emissions warranty since I have 50,000 miles on it I saw an add for
pacesetter headers in a magazine for the 4.0 the header is only $190 was
wondering if anybody heard anything about pacesetter the prices are very
low makes me wonder about the quality.
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> eGroups.com Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/az_vjc
> www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> eGroups.com Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/az_vjc
> www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
5965 From: linda luik <minihummer@w...>
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 7:21pm
Subject: Re: Our forrests
The Rim Country 4-Wheelers have been taking up the challenge of keeping
trails open up on the Rim. You can contact them via Frank Noel
sheepdip@g...
Linda
Thane & Kim Madrid wrote:
> I live in the White Mountains of AZ. We have seen the closer of the
> Logging Industry. The closing of the local Sawmill. And now the
> closing of the Cattle Rancher. The trails up here are becoming far and
> few in between. With more being closed each and every day. Even in my
> hometowns back yard the Mountain that I have grown up on has been
> turned into a Wilderness Area. Without any public notice or meeting.
> We have had to deal with the introduction of the Mexican Grey Wolf and
> the road closers that it has brought on us. Although it is a
> magnificent animal, it is not working. They have to hand feed these
> Wolves, they can't even hunt for themselves. The latest threat is the
> introduction of the Grizzly Bear back into the area. This is just an
> accident waiting to happen! Who comes up with this stuff? This is just
> some of the stuff that has gone on up here.And people up here still
> think everything is ok. It hasn't hurt them! Yet! After all the roads
> are closed then you won't be able to get into our National Forests to
> enjoy them. We really need to fight this together. All of us! Thane
> Madrid97 tj
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> eGroups.com Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/az_vjc
> www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications