blooddrive
01-02-2004, 07:04 PM
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5464 From: David Houk <david.houk@o...>
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 6:19am
Subject: [Fwd: NEED YOUR HELP]
Sandee McCullen wrote:
>
> IMPORTANT NOTICE TO 4-WHEELERS ..................
>
> The State Land Department and Game & Fish NEED YOUR HELP...............
>
> There has been a big push to close a number of acres of State Trust Land in
> and/or near our cities boundries due to the recent directive re "Dust
> Abatement". There is a large section of State Trust Land in the Apache
> Junction area (Gold Canyon actually) that is used mainly by our fellow ATV
> and motorcycle off-highway enthusiasts but local residents want it closed
> due to "dust".
>
> The State Land Dept and Game & Fish have joined together in putting together
> a "control & education" plan in an effort to keep this area available to
> off-highway use. If they cannot get it cleaned, signed and education out it
> most likely will be closed.
>
> THEY NEED OUR HELP.......... They are planning a CLEAN-UP and EDUCATION
> project on February 11 & 12, 2000.
>
> They are asking anyone and everyone interested in Off Highway use to show up
> and help clean the area (approx. 1200 acres) and distribute State Land
> Permit information to the users. They have this planned on one of the worst
> weekends possible for ASA4WDC but here's the plan....... The Land Agencies
> will furnish the trash bags and a large dumpster........ they want us to
> patrol the area for trash, pick it up, and take it back to the gate area for
> removal. There are some large pieces needing to be "dragged" or "hauled"
> back but most is just trash. 4-Wheel Drive is not required.
>
> Friday, FEB. 11, 2000: 9:00 a.m. - ???? Anyone that can make it out for a
> few hours. Anyone retired that can spend some time??
>
> Saturday, FEB 12 2000: As many ASA4WDC members as possible to work from 9:00
> a.m. - 12:00 p.m......... The ASA4WDC Delegate meeting is at 1:00 that same
> afternoon just a couple of miles down the road from the cleanup so hopefully
> all the club delegates and board members can get moving a little earlier and
> spend some time at the clean up prior to the meeting.
>
> For the afternoon cleanup I would direct this request to those
> recreationists that are not members of the ASA4WDC......... Virtual Jeep
> Club, independent 4-Wheelers, the organized clubs that are not associated
> with the ASA4WDC. Your help would be greatly appreciated......... and
> needed.
>
> DIRECTIONS: Highway 60 east to Kings Ranch Road. (There's a stop light with
> a Texaco station just before Kings Ranch Rd) Stay in the right lane.
> There is a gate directly across from Kings Ranch Rd. turn. Go south through
> the gate. We will be meeting at 9:00 a.m. both days.
>
> PLEASE R.S.V.P. Sandee McCullen at 480 832-8132 or email:
> mccullen@w... or leave a message with Tammy Pike's voice mail at
> State Trust Dept.: (602) 542-2269 or email: tpike@l...
>
> PLEASE PASS THIS ON TO ANYONE ON YOUR EMAIL LIST........... OR FRIENDS AND
> NEIGHBORS INTERESTED!!!!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
5465 From: Gale, Aaron <agale@m...>
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 7:43am
Subject: Re: any run plan for this upcoming weekend!
Don't forget Table Mesa on Saturday too. You don't have to camp if you
don't want to.
Aaron (99TJ Desert Sand)
-----Original Message-----
From: Sharxjeep@cs.com [mailto:Sharxjeep@cs.com]
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 8:38 AM
To: four_by_nut@netzero.net
Cc: az_vjc@egroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: any run plan for this upcoming weekend!
We also have a run going to Crown King on Sunday if you are
interested.
Sharky (97 Red TJ)
_____
Click here to find out more about Jaguar pre-owned automobiles.
Click here to find out more about Jaguar pre-owned automobiles.
eGroups.com Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/az_vjc
www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
Attachment: (application/ms-tnef) [not stored]
5466 From: Stu Olson <solson8@u...>
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 6:16pm
Subject: Re: Red Creek Environmental Assessment
Doug,
Is the info you referenced available on-line? I would very much like to
review it. Any info you can give, or a direction you can point me in, would
be very much appreciated.
I spent an over-nighter on Red Creek in December and it was most beautiful.
I agree that the vehicle impact appears to be quite limited, especially when
compared to other areas. I do hope we don't loose this one. If anyone in
the group has never taken up a cause and feels like now is the time, you are
absolutely right.
Thanks......Stu
Stu Olson N7QJP
Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
http://www.qsl.net/n7qjp/
http://home.off-road.com/~stu
http://www.users.uswest.west/~solson8
Developer of VKE Digital Voice Keyer
-----Original Message-----
From: DougB [mailto:azjeep@h...]
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 6:00 PM
To: Jeep AzVJC
Subject: [az_vjc] Red Creek Environmental Assessment
The E.A. is fresh off the presses on Red Creek. The objective is to
"...minimize or eliminate the adverse impacts of FR18 on riparian habitat
along Red Creek". Basically, the proposal states that "Forest Road #18
would be closed or access would be limited". The study lists 6
alternative...with the Cave Creek District Ranger being responsible for
deciding which alternative will be implemented. the alternatives deal w/
grazing policy as well as possible road closure. For the purpose of this
e-mail, I'll only summarize the alternatives as they relate to FR18.
Alternative A: Basically, keeping things as they are. Road would stay open.
Alternative B, C, D, E, and F - close or limit access to FR18. They're
recommended alternative is C - which deals w/ limited grazing.
5467 From: Joe West <Joe.West@f...>
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 8:54pm
Subject: Copy of letter to Off-road.com
Mr. Lenhart,
You don't know me from Adam, and you could probably care less about hearing
from one more person concerning the appropriateness of the article on your
web page concerning the use of a rental vehicle. I've seen at least one
response from you to another off-roader which clearly indicated that you
don't appreciate anyone telling you how to run your business... or your web
page. However, I suspect that even you, when you step back from the emotion
of the moment; would agree that reckless behavior such as that portrayed in
the story on your page is at best; inappropriate, and at worst; illegal and
extremely damaging to a sport I love... and would like to continue to enjoy.
I'm asking you to consider removing this article... and before you say no;
consider this: If a child of yours came home and told you this story about
what they had done to someone else's property, would it be something you
would be proud of? Would you want it published for everyone in the world to
see? Think of your position in the offroad community as a leader... a
father if you will... and people new to our hobby of offroading... children
if you will; don't know any better, and they may very well copy what they
see.
Is this the kind of leadership you want to show them:
http://www.off-road.com/glamis/rentalride/index.html
I don't expect a response from you... but understand that I too have an
obligation to my sport. My obligation extends past what makes good copy and
brings readers to my web page... it extends into being an advocate for our
sport, into being a responsible adult who has a sincere respect for both the
environment, and other people's property.
Unfortunately, if you feel that this article is an important place to stand
up for your journalistic liberty rather than your ethical
responsibilities... I'll be forced, as have others, to boycott your web page
and try to convince others to do the same. I suspect that a nice retraction
of the material in question, with something attached noting your temporary
lack of editorial judgement would be extremely effective in mending some
ever deepening wounds.
Regards,
Joe F. West
98TJ Completely Stock, Not an aftermarket part on it.
http://members.home.com/joewest2/
(Okay... so I lied) <grin>
PS. I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few people haven't taken the liberty
of contacting all the rental car companies and forwarding them links to your
page. While I suspect you make a great deal of money from your web page.. I
suspect that they make vastly more than you do. I promise you, if you delay
the retraction of this story for too long; the person who's picture is in
that article may very well be in for a serious lawsuit.
Good Luck with your decision, and best wishes...
5468 From: Len Sullivan <kermit@c...>
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 10:32pm
Subject: Fw: proposed boycott of ORC
I've modified the address that I sent this to because it is a closed address
for list admins only. Nothing else in the message was changed. This was
received by the administrators of every email list hosted by ORC. (109
total)
Len
----- Original Message -----
From: Len Sullivan <kermit@c...>
To: <majordomo-admins@*******.off-road.com>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 11:29 PM
Subject: proposed boycott of ORC
> Hello all
>
> A member of my local off-road club (the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club -
largest
> offroad club in the state) has posted a message to all club members
> expressing outrage at an article posted by ORC on their website, and has
> proposed a boycott of ORC if the article is not retracted immediately.
>
> I've read the article in question, and it bothers me quite a bit that the
> host organization for our lists would post it. As OHV enthusiasts we all
> have to constantly defend our right to enjoy our hobby against those who
> would close public lands to all vehicular travel, yet ORC is posting
exactly
> the kind of 'evidence' that these groups use against us. Granted, the
> person who wrote the article didn't knock down any trees or kill any
> endangered species...........instead he allowed the destruction of a
rental
> vehicle and endangered the lives of his passengers - including a 5 year
old
> child.
>
> I encourage all of you to read the article and ask yourself if this is the
> kind of publicity that our sport needs. Let your conscience be your
> guide.........if one of my list members posted anything like this I and
> other RESPONSIBLE off-roaders on the list would slap him down immediately.
> I intend to write a letter to ORC demanding that it be removed and a
> retraction/apology put up in it's place. If they won't, I'm sure that
> e-groups would be happy to host my list. I've spent too much time
defending
> our sport to sit idly by and allow a site as visible as ORC to post
> something like this.
>
> Here is a link to the article:
>
> http://www.off-road.com/glamis/rentalride/index.html
>
>
>
> -Len Sullivan 1978 J-10
> -FSJ List Administrator
> -Phoenix, AZ ICQ# 38601959
> o ___
> ___/_II__I\___
> I__ _II__I_ _/
> (o) (o)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>
5469 From: Len Sullivan <kermit@c...>
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 11:17pm
Subject: Forward: Off-Road.com response
Here is the response I received from Patrick Chicas, Senior Editorial
Advisor for Off-Road.com to an email I sent to the other list administrators
on ORC. If they don't change their ways DAMN FAST I intend to start the
boycott by moving my list off of ORC and onto e-groups........or resigning
if my own list won't back me up (not to worried about that).
Len
************************************************** **************************
******
Hi Folks,
We will have a response for all demands and outcrys by the publication of
our next issue. Past that, let me make this very clear, we will never,
ever, ever sucumb to the pressures of any group, entity or individual that
wishes to censor content on ORC. To do so, would be 100% un-American.
We have discussed internally, the path we will take in our response. Our
guess is that a good number of people will do some deep soul searching and
a lesser percentage will be totally outraged. That's fine, we will never,
ever let a minority enflunce ORC.
Take care.
PJC
On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Len Sullivan wrote:
> Hello all
>
> A member of my local off-road club (the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club -
largest
> offroad club in the state) has posted a message to all club members
> expressing outrage at an article posted by ORC on their website, and has
> proposed a boycott of ORC if the article is not retracted immediately.
>
> I've read the article in question, and it bothers me quite a bit that the
> host organization for our lists would post it. As OHV enthusiasts we all
> have to constantly defend our right to enjoy our hobby against those who
> would close public lands to all vehicular travel, yet ORC is posting
exactly
> the kind of 'evidence' that these groups use against us. Granted, the
> person who wrote the article didn't knock down any trees or kill any
> endangered species...........instead he allowed the destruction of a
rental
> vehicle and endangered the lives of his passengers - including a 5 year
old
> child.
>
> I encourage all of you to read the article and ask yourself if this is the
> kind of publicity that our sport needs. Let your conscience be your
> guide.........if one of my list members posted anything like this I and
> other RESPONSIBLE off-roaders on the list would slap him down immediately.
> I intend to write a letter to ORC demanding that it be removed and a
> retraction/apology put up in it's place. If they won't, I'm sure that
> e-groups would be happy to host my list. I've spent too much time
defending
> our sport to sit idly by and allow a site as visible as ORC to post
> something like this.
>
> Here is a link to the article:
>
> http://www.off-road.com/glamis/rentalride/index.html
>
>
>
> -Len Sullivan 1978 J-10
> -FSJ List Administrator
> -Phoenix, AZ ICQ# 38601959
> o ___
> ___/_II__I\___
> I__ _II__I_ _/
> (o) (o)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>
>
> ================================================== =========
> This list courtesy of Off-Road.Com: http://www.off-road.com
>
5470 From: Len Sullivan <kermit@c...>
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 11:57pm
Subject: Fw: Across the Dunes in a Rent-a-Car!!
----- Original Message -----
From: Len Sullivan <kermit@c...>
To: <lenhart@o...>; <rick@o...>; <dwaters@o...>
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 12:56 AM
Subject: Across the Dunes in a Rent-a-Car!!
> Gentleman,
>
> It has been brought to my attention that the following article has been
> posted on an ORC webpage:
>
> http://www.off-road.com/glamis/rentalride/index.html
>
> If a member of my list had posted anything like this, I and the other
> RESPONSIBLE off-road enthusiasts on the list would react immediately and
> strongly. We have all spent countless hours defending our sport from
those
> who would end public access to wilderness lands, yet ORC has seen fit to
> post exactly the kind of 'evidence' that is being used against us.
Granted,
> the author did not knock down any trees, drive in a streambed, or run over
> any endangered animals, but he did allow his vehicle to be operated in an
> unsafe manner resulting in the destruction of a rental vehicle, injuries
to
> his passengers, and the endangerment of other people in the
area........not
> to mention the five year old child in the backseat. If this article had
to
> be posted, it should have been done as a "what NOT to do" article, instead
> of glorifying this type of behavior. Irresponsible drivers like the
author
> of the piece and his 'partner' endanger our sport and provide ammunition
for
> our opponents every time they get behind the wheel. The tongue in cheek
> "disclaimer" at the end of the article makes the situation even worse.
This
> person is a criminal and a danger to himself and others around
> him.........not an author.
>
> If you truly support the concept of "Tread Lightly" you will immediately
> remove this article and post a retraction and apology in it's place. The
> outrage among the off-roading public has already started.....I first
learned
> about the article through a post encouraging a boycott of ORC by a member
of
> my local off-road club. Mr. Chicas replied to my post to the other ORC
> admins saying "Past that, let me make this very clear, we will never,
> ever, ever sucumb to the pressures of any group, entity or individual that
> wishes to censor content on ORC. To do so, would be 100% un-American." I
> suggest that you start listening to the groups, entities, and individuals
> rather soon..........
>
> You may consider it editorial license, but I consider it damaging to our
> sport. By allowing this article to be posted you have damaged our sport,
> damaged your public image, and endangered your advertising income. Do you
> really think that the companies that advertise on your pages wish to be
> associated with this kind of activity? How do you think 4 Wheel Drive
> Wholesalers will react when they see their advertisement on an article
> advocating illegal, destructive and dangerous activities? How long do you
> think they will continue to pay for that advertisement?
>
> On a more personal level, if you were leading a trail run and a member of
> your group began to act the way Mr. LeMarche and his co-driver did would
you
> allow it? Would you want a member of your family to rent the vehicle in
the
> article after Mr. LeMarche was finished with it? Would you allow your
wife
> and child to ride with a person who behaved this way? Would you willfully
> destroy a rental vehicle, defraud the rental company, and then brag about
> it? If not, why are you encouraging people to act this way by posting
this
> "article" on your site?
>
>
>
>
> -Len Sullivan 1978 J-10
> -FSJ List Administrator
> -Phoenix, AZ ICQ# 38601959
> o ___
> ___/_II__I\___
> I__ _II__I_ _/
> (o) (o)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>
5471 From: Rick VH <rvanhazel@s...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 1:23am
Subject: Re: Copy of letter to Off-road.com
I'm writing this mainly because it appeared to a long time internet geek
such as myself to be "flame bait". So I urge you take my comments as my own
opinion.
I'm certain that off-road.com stunt was done in the spirit of fun. The
first time I ever rented a car the guy at the counter described the $6 extra
charge for insurance, thereafter I titled it as the "Tell us where you left
it" insurance. I know a great deal of people that rent cars that drive them
to find out "what if I..". I interpret rental usage as 5000 miles on a
rental car = 20000 miles on a privately own car. For work I often travel
out of town and have to rent a car. It is not my fault that 99% of rentals
have automatic transmissions. Since I've always owned standard, I have a
tendency to stomp the floor looking for the clutch but get a large piece of
the break pedal. Or accidently throw it in park while its still moving.
Run speedbumps, curbs and large potholes over thinking I'm still in my 4x4
with 33's. I dont consider any of that irresponsible behavior.
For those of us who never use our turn signals to pull into our own
driveways or purposely leave the cap off our felt tip pens because the
directions said otherwise.. the article was humorous and is a great thing to
take the edge off of a long work week of coloring inside the lines. The
damage that was done to the vehicle I'm sure is covered by the rental car
agencies insurance. I personally paid for many years, a premium very near
equal to that of my loan payment per month. Why? My driving record has
always been clean.. they like to say its because of frivolous claims. I
think its because of the one guy that gets to sue over a broken fingernail
and wins 50 million dollars. (for those without calculators.. that equals
1666 $30k blazers) The statistic for SUV's goes something like 90% of them
never get to be driven off pavement. For the thousands I've paid in
insurance, I'm happy to see that some of it has gone to the proper usage of
a Chevy Blazer.
Rick
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe West [mailto:Joe.West@f...]
> Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 9:55 PM
> To: 'jeep-l@m...'; 'jeep-tj@m...';
> 'jeeptech@m...'; 'swbjeep@m...';
> az_vjc@egroups.com; 'lenhart@o...'
> Cc: 'abuse@p...'; 'abuse@a...'; 'feedback@h...';
> 'online_feedback@t...'; 'abuse@b...'; 'jbeeman@h...'
> Subject: [az_vjc] Copy of letter to Off-road.com
>
>
> Mr. Lenhart,
>
> You don't know me from Adam, and you could probably care less
> about hearing
> from one more person concerning the appropriateness of the article on your
> web page concerning the use of a rental vehicle. I've seen at least one
> response from you to another off-roader which clearly indicated that you
> don't appreciate anyone telling you how to run your business...
> or your web
> page. However, I suspect that even you, when you step back from
> the emotion
> of the moment; would agree that reckless behavior such as that
> portrayed in
> the story on your page is at best; inappropriate, and at worst;
> illegal and
> extremely damaging to a sport I love... and would like to
> continue to enjoy.
> I'm asking you to consider removing this article... and before you say no;
> consider this: If a child of yours came home and told you this
> story about
> what they had done to someone else's property, would it be something you
> would be proud of? Would you want it published for everyone in
> the world to
> see? Think of your position in the offroad community as a leader... a
> father if you will... and people new to our hobby of
> offroading... children
> if you will; don't know any better, and they may very well copy what they
> see.
> Is this the kind of leadership you want to show them:
>
http://www.off-road.com/glamis/rentalride/index.html
I don't expect a response from you... but understand that I too have an
obligation to my sport. My obligation extends past what makes good copy and
brings readers to my web page... it extends into being an advocate for our
sport, into being a responsible adult who has a sincere respect for both the
environment, and other people's property.
Unfortunately, if you feel that this article is an important place to stand
up for your journalistic liberty rather than your ethical
responsibilities... I'll be forced, as have others, to boycott your web page
and try to convince others to do the same. I suspect that a nice retraction
of the material in question, with something attached noting your temporary
lack of editorial judgement would be extremely effective in mending some
ever deepening wounds.
Regards,
Joe F. West
98TJ Completely Stock, Not an aftermarket part on it.
http://members.home.com/joewest2/
(Okay... so I lied) <grin>
PS. I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few people haven't taken the liberty
of contacting all the rental car companies and forwarding them links to your
page. While I suspect you make a great deal of money from your web page.. I
suspect that they make vastly more than you do. I promise you, if you delay
the retraction of this story for too long; the person who's picture is in
that article may very well be in for a serious lawsuit.
Good Luck with your decision, and best wishes...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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http://click.egroups.com/1/1150/4/_/1966/_/949726573/
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5472 From: Len Sullivan <kermit@c...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 0:37am
Subject: Fw: [FSJ-List] Fw: proposed boycott of ORC
For those of you who think that the ORC article won't really hurt anything
and doesn't matter, here is my response to a posting on the FSJ list
regarding that:
Len
----- Original Message -----
From: Len Sullivan <kermit@c...>
To: <fsj-list@m...>
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: [FSJ-List] Fw: proposed boycott of ORC
> Jason -
>
> My "righteous indignation" as you call it was not caused by the death of a
> chevy blazer.....it is because our own sponsor is advocating and
glorifying
> irresponsible behavior by off-road drivers. Do you really think that the
> eco-freaks will ignore it because the event took place on a sand dune?
No -
> they won't. The main reason they are trying to close public land to
> vehicular traffic is that they perceive ALL off road drivers to be idiots
> like the ones in the article......dangerous and irresponsible, destroying
> anything in their path heedless of damage to their vehicle or injury to
> their passengers or innocent bystanders.
>
> What if there had been a stalled or stuck vehicle full of kids behind the
> dune they jumped over?
>
> The actions depicted in the article and the fact that a highly visible off
> road website posted it are EXACTLY the kind of 'proof' that will be used
to
> convince the voting public that we are all dangerous individuals that
> shouldn't be allowed to travel over public land. Think about it........an
> article by the Sierra Club quoting the ORC article as proof that
off-roaders
> in general support this kind of activity. After all, if we didn't think
it
> was fun we wouldn't have it on the website, would we?
>
> Go to some of the local off road clubs in your area and ask them about
> public relations. Keeping public lands open to vehicle access is a
> difficult fight, and we need all the help we can get. That's why we have
> "clean up runs" and take Boy Scouts with us....to show the public that we
> aren't all uncaring idiots and that it is a small minority that behaves
> badly.
>
> Or look at it this way........how would Handgun Control Inc. react to an
> article on the NRA website describing how much fun it was to shoot up
> private property and how not to get caught? The responsible shooters
would
> know that it was just a case of one idiot who never should have been
allowed
> to have a gun, but the voting public would see it as approval of this type
> of activity by all gun owners (represented by the NRA) and try to get more
> gun control laws passed to prevent it.
>
> If we don't ALL defend our sport EVERY DAY, we may not be able to enjoy it
> any longer.........all because of a few idiots that got more press time
than
> we did. Allowing ORC to get away with this is just shooting ourselves in
> the foot.
>
>
> -Len Sullivan 1978 J-10
> -FSJ List Administrator
> -Phoenix, AZ ICQ# 38601959
> o ___
> ___/_II__I\___
> I__ _II__I_ _/
> (o) (o)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jason Whitaker <jasonwhitaker@b...>
> To: <fsj-list@m...>
> Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 2:07 AM
> Subject: RE: [FSJ-List] Fw: proposed boycott of ORC
>
>
> > Ok, maybe I'm kinda slow but I don't see what deserves this much uproar.
> Are
> > the greenies going to start listing rental cars as endangered species?
> Sure
> > he busted a rental and he's a bad person but I don't see how, just
because
> > it was an suv, that it gives the enviromentalists any ammo about us.
This
> > guy could have done the same thing in a Honda Accord. He was in the
middle
> > of a rec area, sandrails all over. If he was charging across pristine
> > wilderness god yes but I personally don't think an article about some
> idiot
> > breaking a rental is worth fragmenting the offroad community. If we want
> to
> > boycott ORC because they published an article that demonstrates bad
morals
> > great but I have to think that turning this into a big war isn't going
to
> > help our fight against the greenies.
> > Maybe, everyone's taking their righteous indignation a bit to the
extreme?
> > Looks like Mr. Chicas sent you the same letter he sends the eviro
> > extremists, and I wouldn't want ORC bowing to them either.
> >
> > Jason Whitaker
> > '78 Wag
> > Loveland CO
> >
>
>
5473 From: Len Sullivan <kermit@c...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 0:50am
Subject: Fw: Your demands have been met
I guess I can change my sig line now. Would have been nice if he had gotten
my name right when he fired me.
Lesson: free speech only applies to the big people....not the little ones
Happy Trails, Pat
-Len Sullivan 1978 J-10
-Phoenix, AZ ICQ# 38601959
o ___
___/_II__I\___
I__ _II__I_ _/
(o) (o)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Chicas <pjc@o...>
To: <kermit@c...>; <fsj-list@o...>
Cc: <estaff@o...>
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 2:41 AM
Subject: Your demands have been met
>
> In your message:
>
> >Date: 2000-02-05 00:13:12
> >Author: "Len Sullivan" <kermit@c...>
> >Subject: [FSJ-List] Fw: proposed boycott of ORC
> >
> >This is the reply sent by Mr. Chicas to a message I sent to all of the
> >ORC list admins. My initial response to this consists of only two words,
> >which I cannot use on the list because it would violate my own rules. My
> >personal feelings are if ORC wishes to continue this kind of thing they
> >can do it without me being associated with them. If this isn't resolved
> >DAMN FAST, y'all will either have a new administrator or you'll be
> >receiving your list posts from e-groups instead of ORC.
> >
> >
> >-Len Sullivan 1978 J-10
>
>
> Ken, as mentioned we do not take threats and demands lightly. You as an
> individual, do not call the shots at ORC.
>
> I have removed your access as list admin. We will now handle this
> internaly.
>
> Again, we will make a statement on the rental car issue on the 1st.
>
> Thanks for your help in the past.
>
> PJC
>
>
>
5474 From: Joe West <Joe.West@f...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 4:44am
Subject: Reply to Copy of letter to Off-road.com
Mr. Lenhart,
Thank you for your reply; I'm somewhat surprised that you found the time to
answer, and I appreciate the fact that you did.
While you somewhat stated the obvious about your site not being for
children; you clearly missed my point by taking my analogy literally... I
didn't mean that I'm worried literally about "Children" reading your
publication but rather, I am worried that you are setting a bad example for
people who may not know any better; and you have a journalistic obligation
to do so... unless of course you prefer to become the "National Enquirer" of
the online offroad world. To shirk your responsibilities by hiding behind
censorship issue is ridiculous, but something I expected. If I were to
follow your logic; you have no responsibility for anything you print because
"It's not *your* job to teach people what is right or wrong, it's the
parent's job". I'm sorry my friend, but you do have responsibilities... and
you have the right to ignore them if you choose.
One telling thought though... you completely failed to answer the most
important question in my letter so I will repeat it for you:
If a child of yours came home and told you this story about what they had
done to someone else's property, would it be something you would be proud
of? Would you want it published for everyone in the world to see?
If the answer is no; you wouldn't be proud of them for tearing up someone
else's property then you know why I'm disappointed in you for publishing
this article. If the answer is yes; you would be proud of your children for
displaying such behavior, then I apologize to you for bothering you with
these letters; I should be writing them to your parents.
Sincerely,
Joe F. West
Mr West,
I am sure you are aware that this is not a publication for children.
This is a publication for adults. Not a porn site, but a site geared toward
people old enough to drive.
It is the responsibility of parents to control what their children read, and
what they learn from.
As you resent the fact that ORC published this article, being a parent, I
too resent the fact that you have resorted to the time honored tactic of the
liberal elite. You appeal to us to censor the article
"For the Children"
My advice to people choosing to resort to this tactic, as a parent and as
the editor of Off-Road.com is this. Be a parent to your kids. Pay attention
to what they are doing.
It is not my job, nor the job of A-N-Y publication, to do parents jobs for
them.
For Off-Road.com's offical response, please see the upcoming March issue of
our publication.
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe West <Joe.West@f...>
To: 'jeep-l@m...' <jeep-l@m...>;
'jeep-tj@m...' <jeep-tj@m...>;
'jeeptech@m...' <jeeptech@m...>;
'swbjeep@m...' <swbjeep@m...>; az_vjc@egroups.com
<az_vjc@egroups.com>; 'lenhart@o...' <lenhart@o...>
Cc: 'abuse@p...' <abuse@p...>; 'abuse@a...'
<abuse@a...>; 'feedback@h...' <feedback@h...>;
'online_feedback@t...' <online_feedback@t...>;
'abuse@b...' <abuse@b...>; 'jbeeman@h...' <jbeeman@h...>
Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 8:56 PM
Subject: Copy of letter to Off-road.com
>Mr. Lenhart,
>
>You don't know me from Adam, and you could probably care less about hearing
>from one more person concerning the appropriateness of the article on your
>web page concerning the use of a rental vehicle. I've seen at least one
>response from you to another off-roader which clearly indicated that you
>don't appreciate anyone telling you how to run your business... or your web
>page. However, I suspect that even you, when you step back from the
emotion
>of the moment; would agree that reckless behavior such as that portrayed in
>the story on your page is at best; inappropriate, and at worst; illegal and
>extremely damaging to a sport I love... and would like to continue to
enjoy.
>I'm asking you to consider removing this article... and before you say no;
>consider this: If a child of yours came home and told you this story about
>what they had done to someone else's property, would it be something you
>would be proud of? Would you want it published for everyone in the world
to
>see? Think of your position in the offroad community as a leader... a
>father if you will... and people new to our hobby of offroading... children
>if you will; don't know any better, and they may very well copy what they
>see.
>Is this the kind of leadership you want to show them:
>
>http://www.off-road.com/glamis/rentalride/index.html
>
>
>I don't expect a response from you... but understand that I too have an
>obligation to my sport. My obligation extends past what makes good copy
and
>brings readers to my web page... it extends into being an advocate for our
>sport, into being a responsible adult who has a sincere respect for both
the
>environment, and other people's property.
>Unfortunately, if you feel that this article is an important place to stand
>up for your journalistic liberty rather than your ethical
>responsibilities... I'll be forced, as have others, to boycott your web
page
>and try to convince others to do the same. I suspect that a nice
retraction
>of the material in question, with something attached noting your temporary
>lack of editorial judgement would be extremely effective in mending some
>ever deepening wounds.
>
>Regards,
>
>Joe F. West
>98TJ Completely Stock, Not an aftermarket part on it.
>http://members.home.com/joewest2/
>(Okay... so I lied) <grin>
>
>
>PS. I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few people haven't taken the
liberty
>of contacting all the rental car companies and forwarding them links to
your
>page. While I suspect you make a great deal of money from your web page..
I
>suspect that they make vastly more than you do. I promise you, if you
delay
>the retraction of this story for too long; the person who's picture is in
>that article may very well be in for a serious lawsuit.
>
>Good Luck with your decision, and best wishes...
>
================================================== ===
For unsubscribe info see http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/jeep/jeeplists.htm
This list courtesy of Off-Road.Com: http://www.off-road.com
5475 From: Jon Loveless <jloveless@e...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 6:47am
Subject: Decal ordering
If anyone would like to order an AZ_VJC decal, instructions are up at the
eGroup site under Classifieds.
Choose [Classifieds] from:
http://www.egroups.com/wdb?listname=az_vjc
See the Decal at:
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=22547&a=905123
Jon
---------------------------
Jon Loveless
480-816-6240
jloveless@e...
----------------------------
5476 From: Leonard K. Pennock <leonardpennock@h...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 7:07am
Subject: Re: Fw: Your demands have been met
Len Sullivan wrote:
>
> I guess I can change my sig line now. Would have been nice if he had gotten
> my name right when he fired me.
>
> Lesson: free speech only applies to the big people....not the little ones
>
Kind of funny that you are demanding censorship by wanting the article
removed and then claim free speech doesn't apply to you. Kind of
hypocritical don't you think?
> Happy Trails, Pat
>
> -Len Sullivan 1978 J-10
> -Phoenix, AZ ICQ# 38601959
> o ___
> ___/_II__I\___
> I__ _II__I_ _/
> (o) (o)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Patrick Chicas <pjc@o...>
> To: <kermit@c...>; <fsj-list@o...>
> Cc: <estaff@o...>
> Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 2:41 AM
> Subject: Your demands have been met
>
> >
> > In your message:
> >
> > >Date: 2000-02-05 00:13:12
> > >Author: "Len Sullivan" <kermit@c...>
> > >Subject: [FSJ-List] Fw: proposed boycott of ORC
> > >
> > >This is the reply sent by Mr. Chicas to a message I sent to all of the
> > >ORC list admins. My initial response to this consists of only two words,
> > >which I cannot use on the list because it would violate my own rules. My
> > >personal feelings are if ORC wishes to continue this kind of thing they
> > >can do it without me being associated with them. If this isn't resolved
> > >DAMN FAST, y'all will either have a new administrator or you'll be
> > >receiving your list posts from e-groups instead of ORC.
> > >
> > >
> > >-Len Sullivan 1978 J-10
> >
> >
> > Ken, as mentioned we do not take threats and demands lightly. You as an
> > individual, do not call the shots at ORC.
> >
> > I have removed your access as list admin. We will now handle this
> > internaly.
> >
> > Again, we will make a statement on the rental car issue on the 1st.
> >
> > Thanks for your help in the past.
> >
> > PJC
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Valentine's Day Shopping Made Simple.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/1150/4/_/1966/_/949744723/
>
> -- Check out your group's private Chat room
> -- http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=az_vjc&m=1
--
Leonard K. Pennock
Those who walk bravely through life, unafraid of loss or failure,
find that they very rarely lose or fail.
5477 From: Leonard K. Pennock <leonardpennock@h...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 7:11am
Subject: Re: Copy of letter to Off-road.com
As I've always said about buying a rental car. They are driven by
people that don't have a nickel invested in them.
Rick VH wrote:
>
> I'm writing this mainly because it appeared to a long time internet geek
> such as myself to be "flame bait". So I urge you take my comments as my own
> opinion.
>
> I'm certain that off-road.com stunt was done in the spirit of fun. The
> first time I ever rented a car the guy at the counter described the $6 extra
> charge for insurance, thereafter I titled it as the "Tell us where you left
> it" insurance. I know a great deal of people that rent cars that drive them
> to find out "what if I..". I interpret rental usage as 5000 miles on a
> rental car = 20000 miles on a privately own car. For work I often travel
> out of town and have to rent a car. It is not my fault that 99% of rentals
> have automatic transmissions. Since I've always owned standard, I have a
> tendency to stomp the floor looking for the clutch but get a large piece of
> the break pedal. Or accidently throw it in park while its still moving.
> Run speedbumps, curbs and large potholes over thinking I'm still in my 4x4
> with 33's. I dont consider any of that irresponsible behavior.
>
> For those of us who never use our turn signals to pull into our own
> driveways or purposely leave the cap off our felt tip pens because the
> directions said otherwise.. the article was humorous and is a great thing to
> take the edge off of a long work week of coloring inside the lines. The
> damage that was done to the vehicle I'm sure is covered by the rental car
> agencies insurance. I personally paid for many years, a premium very near
> equal to that of my loan payment per month. Why? My driving record has
> always been clean.. they like to say its because of frivolous claims. I
> think its because of the one guy that gets to sue over a broken fingernail
> and wins 50 million dollars. (for those without calculators.. that equals
> 1666 $30k blazers) The statistic for SUV's goes something like 90% of them
> never get to be driven off pavement. For the thousands I've paid in
> insurance, I'm happy to see that some of it has gone to the proper usage of
> a Chevy Blazer.
>
> Rick
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joe West [mailto:Joe.West@f...]
> > Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 9:55 PM
> > To: 'jeep-l@m...'; 'jeep-tj@m...';
> > 'jeeptech@m...'; 'swbjeep@m...';
> > az_vjc@egroups.com; 'lenhart@o...'
> > Cc: 'abuse@p...'; 'abuse@a...'; 'feedback@h...';
> > 'online_feedback@t...'; 'abuse@b...'; 'jbeeman@h...'
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Copy of letter to Off-road.com
> >
> >
> > Mr. Lenhart,
> >
> > You don't know me from Adam, and you could probably care less
> > about hearing
> > from one more person concerning the appropriateness of the article on your
> > web page concerning the use of a rental vehicle. I've seen at least one
> > response from you to another off-roader which clearly indicated that you
> > don't appreciate anyone telling you how to run your business...
> > or your web
> > page. However, I suspect that even you, when you step back from
> > the emotion
> > of the moment; would agree that reckless behavior such as that
> > portrayed in
> > the story on your page is at best; inappropriate, and at worst;
> > illegal and
> > extremely damaging to a sport I love... and would like to
> > continue to enjoy.
> > I'm asking you to consider removing this article... and before you say no;
> > consider this: If a child of yours came home and told you this
> > story about
> > what they had done to someone else's property, would it be something you
> > would be proud of? Would you want it published for everyone in
> > the world to
> > see? Think of your position in the offroad community as a leader... a
> > father if you will... and people new to our hobby of
> > offroading... children
> > if you will; don't know any better, and they may very well copy what they
> > see.
> > Is this the kind of leadership you want to show them:
> >
> http://www.off-road.com/glamis/rentalride/index.html
>
> I don't expect a response from you... but understand that I too have an
> obligation to my sport. My obligation extends past what makes good copy and
> brings readers to my web page... it extends into being an advocate for our
> sport, into being a responsible adult who has a sincere respect for both the
> environment, and other people's property.
> Unfortunately, if you feel that this article is an important place to stand
> up for your journalistic liberty rather than your ethical
> responsibilities... I'll be forced, as have others, to boycott your web page
> and try to convince others to do the same. I suspect that a nice retraction
> of the material in question, with something attached noting your temporary
> lack of editorial judgement would be extremely effective in mending some
> ever deepening wounds.
>
> Regards,
>
> Joe F. West
> 98TJ Completely Stock, Not an aftermarket part on it.
> http://members.home.com/joewest2/
> (Okay... so I lied) <grin>
>
> PS. I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few people haven't taken the liberty
> of contacting all the rental car companies and forwarding them links to your
> page. While I suspect you make a great deal of money from your web page.. I
> suspect that they make vastly more than you do. I promise you, if you delay
> the retraction of this story for too long; the person who's picture is in
> that article may very well be in for a serious lawsuit.
>
> Good Luck with your decision, and best wishes...
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Valentine's Day Shopping Made Simple.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/1150/4/_/1966/_/949726573/
>
> -- Check out your group's private Chat room
> -- http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=az_vjc&m=1
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Body Paint, Chocolates, & Roses Oh My!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/1151/4/_/1966/_/949742543/
>
> -- Create a poll/survey for your group!
> -- http://www.egroups.com/vote?listname=az_vjc&m=1
--
Leonard K. Pennock
Those who walk bravely through life, unafraid of loss or failure,
find that they very rarely lose or fail.
5478 From: Jon Loveless <jloveless@e...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 7:05am
Subject: Tech sites
I have added a couple of Tech sites to the eGroups database. We now have 6
entries and there are lots more out there. This can become an invaluable
resource, so if you have a site with Tech Tips, or know of one, please
enter it here. Everyone will benefit.
http://www.egroups.com/wdb?listname=az_vjc and click Tech Links.
---------------------------
Jon Loveless
480-816-6240
jloveless@e...
----------------------------
5479 From: Joe West <Joe.West@f...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 7:13am
Subject: Re: Fw: Your demands have been met
Pat,
Demanding censorship or responsible behavior? I think Len was responding to
the fact that offroad.com fired him as list administrator because he voiced
his opinion to them... in other words; He can talk freely on their list if
and only if his opinion agrees with theirs.
Make sense now?
Joe F. West
98TJ Completely Stock, Not an aftermarket part on it.
http://members.home.com/joewest2/
(Okay... so I lied) <grin>
-----Original Message-----
From: Leonard K. Pennock [mailto:leonardpennock@h...]
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 8:08 AM
To: Len Sullivan
Cc: FSJ-List; AZVJC; Adam (school); Doc; Mike and Laurie; Patrick
Chicas; carnuck@w...
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Fw: Your demands have been met
Len Sullivan wrote:
>
> I guess I can change my sig line now. Would have been nice if he had
gotten
> my name right when he fired me.
>
> Lesson: free speech only applies to the big people....not the little ones
>
Kind of funny that you are demanding censorship by wanting the article
removed and then claim free speech doesn't apply to you. Kind of
hypocritical don't you think?
> Happy Trails, Pat
>
> -Len Sullivan 1978 J-10
> -Phoenix, AZ ICQ# 38601959
> o ___
> ___/_II__I\___
> I__ _II__I_ _/
> (o) (o)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Patrick Chicas <pjc@o...>
> To: <kermit@c...>; <fsj-list@o...>
> Cc: <estaff@o...>
> Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 2:41 AM
> Subject: Your demands have been met
>
> >
> > In your message:
> >
> > >Date: 2000-02-05 00:13:12
> > >Author: "Len Sullivan" <kermit@c...>
> > >Subject: [FSJ-List] Fw: proposed boycott of ORC
> > >
> > >This is the reply sent by Mr. Chicas to a message I sent to all of the
> > >ORC list admins. My initial response to this consists of only two
words,
> > >which I cannot use on the list because it would violate my own rules.
My
> > >personal feelings are if ORC wishes to continue this kind of thing they
> > >can do it without me being associated with them. If this isn't resolved
> > >DAMN FAST, y'all will either have a new administrator or you'll be
> > >receiving your list posts from e-groups instead of ORC.
> > >
> > >
> > >-Len Sullivan 1978 J-10
> >
> >
> > Ken, as mentioned we do not take threats and demands lightly. You as an
> > individual, do not call the shots at ORC.
> >
> > I have removed your access as list admin. We will now handle this
> > internaly.
> >
> > Again, we will make a statement on the rental car issue on the 1st.
> >
> > Thanks for your help in the past.
> >
> > PJC
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Valentine's Day Shopping Made Simple.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/1150/4/_/1966/_/949744723/
>
> -- Check out your group's private Chat room
> -- http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=az_vjc&m=1
--
Leonard K. Pennock
Those who walk bravely through life, unafraid of loss or failure,
find that they very rarely lose or fail.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you want to be single again,
Don't buy your Valentine a Gift by clicking here.
http://click.egroups.com/1/1153/4/_/1966/_/949763314/
-- Talk to your group with your own voice!
-- http://www.egroups.com/VoiceChatPage?listName=az_vjc&m=1
5480 From: Leonard K. Pennock <leonardpennock@h...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 7:25am
Subject: Re: Fw: Your demands have been met
Stated below was "they can do it without me being associated with
them". So they took the statment at face value and removed him. IMHO
it is like walking into the boss and saying if I don't get my way I'll
quit and the boss walking you to the front door.
Expressing dislike of something is reasonable, demanding it be removed
because you don't agree with it is not. Will I don't think the person in
the article showed good taste, I beleive he has everyright to write
about it and ORC has every write to publish it. I do beleive that they
should provide a forum for people to write rebuttals but it isn't a
requirement for them.
I've now said all I'm going to say on this because I don't believe that
AZ_VJC is for politicial discussions which is what this is becoming.
Leonard
Joe West wrote:
>
> Pat,
>
> Demanding censorship or responsible behavior? I think Len was responding to
> the fact that offroad.com fired him as list administrator because he voiced
> his opinion to them... in other words; He can talk freely on their list if
> and only if his opinion agrees with theirs.
>
> Make sense now?
>
> Joe F. West
> 98TJ Completely Stock, Not an aftermarket part on it.
> http://members.home.com/joewest2/
> (Okay... so I lied) <grin>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leonard K. Pennock [mailto:leonardpennock@h...]
> Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 8:08 AM
> To: Len Sullivan
> Cc: FSJ-List; AZVJC; Adam (school); Doc; Mike and Laurie; Patrick
> Chicas; carnuck@w...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Fw: Your demands have been met
>
> Len Sullivan wrote:
> >
> > I guess I can change my sig line now. Would have been nice if he had
> gotten
> > my name right when he fired me.
> >
> > Lesson: free speech only applies to the big people....not the little ones
> >
>
> Kind of funny that you are demanding censorship by wanting the article
> removed and then claim free speech doesn't apply to you. Kind of
> hypocritical don't you think?
>
> > Happy Trails, Pat
> >
> > -Len Sullivan 1978 J-10
> > -Phoenix, AZ ICQ# 38601959
> > o ___
> > ___/_II__I\___
> > I__ _II__I_ _/
> > (o) (o)
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Patrick Chicas <pjc@o...>
> > To: <kermit@c...>; <fsj-list@o...>
> > Cc: <estaff@o...>
> > Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 2:41 AM
> > Subject: Your demands have been met
> >
> > >
> > > In your message:
> > >
> > > >Date: 2000-02-05 00:13:12
> > > >Author: "Len Sullivan" <kermit@c...>
> > > >Subject: [FSJ-List] Fw: proposed boycott of ORC
> > > >
> > > >This is the reply sent by Mr. Chicas to a message I sent to all of the
> > > >ORC list admins. My initial response to this consists of only two
> words,
> > > >which I cannot use on the list because it would violate my own rules.
> My
> > > >personal feelings are if ORC wishes to continue this kind of thing they
> > > >can do it without me being associated with them. If this isn't resolved
> > > >DAMN FAST, y'all will either have a new administrator or you'll be
> > > >receiving your list posts from e-groups instead of ORC.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >-Len Sullivan 1978 J-10
> > >
> > >
> > > Ken, as mentioned we do not take threats and demands lightly. You as an
> > > individual, do not call the shots at ORC.
> > >
> > > I have removed your access as list admin. We will now handle this
> > > internaly.
> > >
> > > Again, we will make a statement on the rental car issue on the 1st.
> > >
> > > Thanks for your help in the past.
> > >
> > > PJC
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Valentine's Day Shopping Made Simple.
> > http://click.egroups.com/1/1150/4/_/1966/_/949744723/
> >
> > -- Check out your group's private Chat room
> > -- http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=az_vjc&m=1
>
> --
> Leonard K. Pennock
>
> Those who walk bravely through life, unafraid of loss or failure,
> find that they very rarely lose or fail.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> If you want to be single again,
> Don't buy your Valentine a Gift by clicking here.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/1153/4/_/1966/_/949763314/
>
> -- Talk to your group with your own voice!
> -- http://www.egroups.com/VoiceChatPage?listName=az_vjc&m=1
--
Leonard K. Pennock
Those who walk bravely through life, unafraid of loss or failure,
find that they very rarely lose or fail.
5481 From: Jon Loveless <jloveless@e...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 7:37am
Subject: Re: Fw: Your demands have been met
AMEN.
At 08:25 AM 2/5/2000 -0700, Leonard K. Pennock wrote:
I've now said all I'm going to say on this because I don't believe that
AZ_VJC is for politicial discussions which is what this is becoming.
---------------------------
Jon Loveless
480-816-6240
jloveless@earthlink.net
----------------------------
5482 From: Maniatico <maniatico@h...>
Date: Tue Mar 7, 2000 2:30pm
Subject: Crown King Run
I'm still waiting for Earnhardt's to finish installing a new transfer case
in my Jeep. They originally said it would be ready last Wed., but now they
say Monday. So . . I won't be able to make the Crown King run tomorrow.
Hope to get the next trip up. Have fun everyone!!
Maniatico
-----Original Message-----
From: Sharxjeep@c... [mailto:Sharxjeep@c...]
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 8:38 AM
To: four_by_nut@n...
Cc: az_vjc@egroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: any run plan for this upcoming weekend!
We also have a run going to Crown King on Sunday if you are interested.
Sharky (97 Red TJ)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Valentine's Day Shopping Made Simple.
http://click.egroups.com/1/1158/4/_/1966/_/949678706/
-- Talk to your group with your own voice!
-- http://www.egroups.com/VoiceChatPage?listName=az_vjc&m=1
5483 From: Big Elmer <ezrydr1@y...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 4:45pm
Subject: MOTOROLA TALKABOUT RADIOS
Hey Everyone, I saw post the other day about COSTCO having these neat
little rradios on sale, went in to get a couple, and was informed only
availible on line, at www.costco.com , the sale is good through the
8th.
5484 From: Andrew F. Mason <afmason@h...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 6:19pm
Subject: Reminder about Crown King trip tomorrow
I would appreciate it if all who are going on the Crown King trip would try
to be at the Southeast corner of I-17 and Carefree Hwy at 8:00. We are
meeting up with another group of about 4 vehicles at 99th Ave and carefree
Hwy at around 8:30, so If we are all there at around 8:00 we can leave a
little before the scheduled departure time of 8:30.
If all who are planning to attend can reply to this email tonight, I would
appreciate it. I would like to have an accurate headcount for tomorrow.
Thanks and see you tomorrow morning.
Andy & Tina Mason
Black 99TJ
5485 From: Tom Dunn <ripper56@c...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 7:17pm
Subject: Re: Hand Held CB?????
Seeing all the interest in CBs, just thought I'd pass along
some info. At www.sportsmansguide.com they have GE handhelds
on sale for $29.95 and Midland onboards for $59.95. This is
a highly reputable outfit and a great source of gear. New,
surplus and otherwise.
-Tom Dunn, (ripper56)
5486 From: Ken Unterriner <jeep108@h...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 8:42pm
Subject: Re: MOTOROLA TALKABOUT RADIOS
I was just in the costco at superstition springs and noticed they had
some of these radios.I remembered them being mentioned.
Ken U
"big elmer" <ezrydr-@y...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/az_vjc/?start=5483
> Hey Everyone, I saw post the other day about COSTCO having these neat
> little rradios on sale, went in to get a couple, and was informed only
> availible on line, at www.costco.com , the sale is good through the
> 8th.
>
5487 From: Leonard K. Pennock <leonardpennock@h...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 9:00pm
Subject: Re: Reminder about Crown King trip tomorrow
Will anyone be on FRS in addition to the CB. If so what channel?
"Andrew F. Mason" wrote:
>
> I would appreciate it if all who are going on the Crown King trip would try
> to be at the Southeast corner of I-17 and Carefree Hwy at 8:00. We are
> meeting up with another group of about 4 vehicles at 99th Ave and carefree
> Hwy at around 8:30, so If we are all there at around 8:00 we can leave a
> little before the scheduled departure time of 8:30.
>
> If all who are planning to attend can reply to this email tonight, I would
> appreciate it. I would like to have an accurate headcount for tomorrow.
>
> Thanks and see you tomorrow morning.
>
> Andy & Tina Mason
> Black 99TJ
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Shop for your Valentine at eGroups!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/1149/4/_/1966/_/949803564/
>
> eGroups.com Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/az_vjc/
> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
--
Leonard K. Pennock
Those who walk bravely through life, unafraid of loss or failure,
find that they very rarely lose or fail.
5488 From: Tom Quinn <tomquinn@u...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 8:34am
Subject: Motorola Talkabout Plus radios
For anyone interested, you can purchase Motorola Talkabout Plus radios at www.costco.com for $49.99 + about $3 shipping + tax. Limit 2 per household. I think this price is good through 02/08 and is only good on-line, not in stores. I'm not sure if you have to be a member of Costco or not on-line as the membership number was an optional field when I signed up for an on-line account.
They have the regular Talkabouts for $42.99. These are the ones without the digital channel display.
Tom
Tom Quinn
Jeep ONDAROX
tomquinn@uswest.net
http://ondarox.web.com
5464 From: David Houk <david.houk@o...>
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 6:19am
Subject: [Fwd: NEED YOUR HELP]
Sandee McCullen wrote:
>
> IMPORTANT NOTICE TO 4-WHEELERS ..................
>
> The State Land Department and Game & Fish NEED YOUR HELP...............
>
> There has been a big push to close a number of acres of State Trust Land in
> and/or near our cities boundries due to the recent directive re "Dust
> Abatement". There is a large section of State Trust Land in the Apache
> Junction area (Gold Canyon actually) that is used mainly by our fellow ATV
> and motorcycle off-highway enthusiasts but local residents want it closed
> due to "dust".
>
> The State Land Dept and Game & Fish have joined together in putting together
> a "control & education" plan in an effort to keep this area available to
> off-highway use. If they cannot get it cleaned, signed and education out it
> most likely will be closed.
>
> THEY NEED OUR HELP.......... They are planning a CLEAN-UP and EDUCATION
> project on February 11 & 12, 2000.
>
> They are asking anyone and everyone interested in Off Highway use to show up
> and help clean the area (approx. 1200 acres) and distribute State Land
> Permit information to the users. They have this planned on one of the worst
> weekends possible for ASA4WDC but here's the plan....... The Land Agencies
> will furnish the trash bags and a large dumpster........ they want us to
> patrol the area for trash, pick it up, and take it back to the gate area for
> removal. There are some large pieces needing to be "dragged" or "hauled"
> back but most is just trash. 4-Wheel Drive is not required.
>
> Friday, FEB. 11, 2000: 9:00 a.m. - ???? Anyone that can make it out for a
> few hours. Anyone retired that can spend some time??
>
> Saturday, FEB 12 2000: As many ASA4WDC members as possible to work from 9:00
> a.m. - 12:00 p.m......... The ASA4WDC Delegate meeting is at 1:00 that same
> afternoon just a couple of miles down the road from the cleanup so hopefully
> all the club delegates and board members can get moving a little earlier and
> spend some time at the clean up prior to the meeting.
>
> For the afternoon cleanup I would direct this request to those
> recreationists that are not members of the ASA4WDC......... Virtual Jeep
> Club, independent 4-Wheelers, the organized clubs that are not associated
> with the ASA4WDC. Your help would be greatly appreciated......... and
> needed.
>
> DIRECTIONS: Highway 60 east to Kings Ranch Road. (There's a stop light with
> a Texaco station just before Kings Ranch Rd) Stay in the right lane.
> There is a gate directly across from Kings Ranch Rd. turn. Go south through
> the gate. We will be meeting at 9:00 a.m. both days.
>
> PLEASE R.S.V.P. Sandee McCullen at 480 832-8132 or email:
> mccullen@w... or leave a message with Tammy Pike's voice mail at
> State Trust Dept.: (602) 542-2269 or email: tpike@l...
>
> PLEASE PASS THIS ON TO ANYONE ON YOUR EMAIL LIST........... OR FRIENDS AND
> NEIGHBORS INTERESTED!!!!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
5465 From: Gale, Aaron <agale@m...>
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 7:43am
Subject: Re: any run plan for this upcoming weekend!
Don't forget Table Mesa on Saturday too. You don't have to camp if you
don't want to.
Aaron (99TJ Desert Sand)
-----Original Message-----
From: Sharxjeep@cs.com [mailto:Sharxjeep@cs.com]
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 8:38 AM
To: four_by_nut@netzero.net
Cc: az_vjc@egroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: any run plan for this upcoming weekend!
We also have a run going to Crown King on Sunday if you are
interested.
Sharky (97 Red TJ)
_____
Click here to find out more about Jaguar pre-owned automobiles.
Click here to find out more about Jaguar pre-owned automobiles.
eGroups.com Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/az_vjc
www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
Attachment: (application/ms-tnef) [not stored]
5466 From: Stu Olson <solson8@u...>
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 6:16pm
Subject: Re: Red Creek Environmental Assessment
Doug,
Is the info you referenced available on-line? I would very much like to
review it. Any info you can give, or a direction you can point me in, would
be very much appreciated.
I spent an over-nighter on Red Creek in December and it was most beautiful.
I agree that the vehicle impact appears to be quite limited, especially when
compared to other areas. I do hope we don't loose this one. If anyone in
the group has never taken up a cause and feels like now is the time, you are
absolutely right.
Thanks......Stu
Stu Olson N7QJP
Phoenix, AZ DM33vm
http://www.qsl.net/n7qjp/
http://home.off-road.com/~stu
http://www.users.uswest.west/~solson8
Developer of VKE Digital Voice Keyer
-----Original Message-----
From: DougB [mailto:azjeep@h...]
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 6:00 PM
To: Jeep AzVJC
Subject: [az_vjc] Red Creek Environmental Assessment
The E.A. is fresh off the presses on Red Creek. The objective is to
"...minimize or eliminate the adverse impacts of FR18 on riparian habitat
along Red Creek". Basically, the proposal states that "Forest Road #18
would be closed or access would be limited". The study lists 6
alternative...with the Cave Creek District Ranger being responsible for
deciding which alternative will be implemented. the alternatives deal w/
grazing policy as well as possible road closure. For the purpose of this
e-mail, I'll only summarize the alternatives as they relate to FR18.
Alternative A: Basically, keeping things as they are. Road would stay open.
Alternative B, C, D, E, and F - close or limit access to FR18. They're
recommended alternative is C - which deals w/ limited grazing.
5467 From: Joe West <Joe.West@f...>
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 8:54pm
Subject: Copy of letter to Off-road.com
Mr. Lenhart,
You don't know me from Adam, and you could probably care less about hearing
from one more person concerning the appropriateness of the article on your
web page concerning the use of a rental vehicle. I've seen at least one
response from you to another off-roader which clearly indicated that you
don't appreciate anyone telling you how to run your business... or your web
page. However, I suspect that even you, when you step back from the emotion
of the moment; would agree that reckless behavior such as that portrayed in
the story on your page is at best; inappropriate, and at worst; illegal and
extremely damaging to a sport I love... and would like to continue to enjoy.
I'm asking you to consider removing this article... and before you say no;
consider this: If a child of yours came home and told you this story about
what they had done to someone else's property, would it be something you
would be proud of? Would you want it published for everyone in the world to
see? Think of your position in the offroad community as a leader... a
father if you will... and people new to our hobby of offroading... children
if you will; don't know any better, and they may very well copy what they
see.
Is this the kind of leadership you want to show them:
http://www.off-road.com/glamis/rentalride/index.html
I don't expect a response from you... but understand that I too have an
obligation to my sport. My obligation extends past what makes good copy and
brings readers to my web page... it extends into being an advocate for our
sport, into being a responsible adult who has a sincere respect for both the
environment, and other people's property.
Unfortunately, if you feel that this article is an important place to stand
up for your journalistic liberty rather than your ethical
responsibilities... I'll be forced, as have others, to boycott your web page
and try to convince others to do the same. I suspect that a nice retraction
of the material in question, with something attached noting your temporary
lack of editorial judgement would be extremely effective in mending some
ever deepening wounds.
Regards,
Joe F. West
98TJ Completely Stock, Not an aftermarket part on it.
http://members.home.com/joewest2/
(Okay... so I lied) <grin>
PS. I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few people haven't taken the liberty
of contacting all the rental car companies and forwarding them links to your
page. While I suspect you make a great deal of money from your web page.. I
suspect that they make vastly more than you do. I promise you, if you delay
the retraction of this story for too long; the person who's picture is in
that article may very well be in for a serious lawsuit.
Good Luck with your decision, and best wishes...
5468 From: Len Sullivan <kermit@c...>
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 10:32pm
Subject: Fw: proposed boycott of ORC
I've modified the address that I sent this to because it is a closed address
for list admins only. Nothing else in the message was changed. This was
received by the administrators of every email list hosted by ORC. (109
total)
Len
----- Original Message -----
From: Len Sullivan <kermit@c...>
To: <majordomo-admins@*******.off-road.com>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 11:29 PM
Subject: proposed boycott of ORC
> Hello all
>
> A member of my local off-road club (the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club -
largest
> offroad club in the state) has posted a message to all club members
> expressing outrage at an article posted by ORC on their website, and has
> proposed a boycott of ORC if the article is not retracted immediately.
>
> I've read the article in question, and it bothers me quite a bit that the
> host organization for our lists would post it. As OHV enthusiasts we all
> have to constantly defend our right to enjoy our hobby against those who
> would close public lands to all vehicular travel, yet ORC is posting
exactly
> the kind of 'evidence' that these groups use against us. Granted, the
> person who wrote the article didn't knock down any trees or kill any
> endangered species...........instead he allowed the destruction of a
rental
> vehicle and endangered the lives of his passengers - including a 5 year
old
> child.
>
> I encourage all of you to read the article and ask yourself if this is the
> kind of publicity that our sport needs. Let your conscience be your
> guide.........if one of my list members posted anything like this I and
> other RESPONSIBLE off-roaders on the list would slap him down immediately.
> I intend to write a letter to ORC demanding that it be removed and a
> retraction/apology put up in it's place. If they won't, I'm sure that
> e-groups would be happy to host my list. I've spent too much time
defending
> our sport to sit idly by and allow a site as visible as ORC to post
> something like this.
>
> Here is a link to the article:
>
> http://www.off-road.com/glamis/rentalride/index.html
>
>
>
> -Len Sullivan 1978 J-10
> -FSJ List Administrator
> -Phoenix, AZ ICQ# 38601959
> o ___
> ___/_II__I\___
> I__ _II__I_ _/
> (o) (o)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>
5469 From: Len Sullivan <kermit@c...>
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 11:17pm
Subject: Forward: Off-Road.com response
Here is the response I received from Patrick Chicas, Senior Editorial
Advisor for Off-Road.com to an email I sent to the other list administrators
on ORC. If they don't change their ways DAMN FAST I intend to start the
boycott by moving my list off of ORC and onto e-groups........or resigning
if my own list won't back me up (not to worried about that).
Len
************************************************** **************************
******
Hi Folks,
We will have a response for all demands and outcrys by the publication of
our next issue. Past that, let me make this very clear, we will never,
ever, ever sucumb to the pressures of any group, entity or individual that
wishes to censor content on ORC. To do so, would be 100% un-American.
We have discussed internally, the path we will take in our response. Our
guess is that a good number of people will do some deep soul searching and
a lesser percentage will be totally outraged. That's fine, we will never,
ever let a minority enflunce ORC.
Take care.
PJC
On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Len Sullivan wrote:
> Hello all
>
> A member of my local off-road club (the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club -
largest
> offroad club in the state) has posted a message to all club members
> expressing outrage at an article posted by ORC on their website, and has
> proposed a boycott of ORC if the article is not retracted immediately.
>
> I've read the article in question, and it bothers me quite a bit that the
> host organization for our lists would post it. As OHV enthusiasts we all
> have to constantly defend our right to enjoy our hobby against those who
> would close public lands to all vehicular travel, yet ORC is posting
exactly
> the kind of 'evidence' that these groups use against us. Granted, the
> person who wrote the article didn't knock down any trees or kill any
> endangered species...........instead he allowed the destruction of a
rental
> vehicle and endangered the lives of his passengers - including a 5 year
old
> child.
>
> I encourage all of you to read the article and ask yourself if this is the
> kind of publicity that our sport needs. Let your conscience be your
> guide.........if one of my list members posted anything like this I and
> other RESPONSIBLE off-roaders on the list would slap him down immediately.
> I intend to write a letter to ORC demanding that it be removed and a
> retraction/apology put up in it's place. If they won't, I'm sure that
> e-groups would be happy to host my list. I've spent too much time
defending
> our sport to sit idly by and allow a site as visible as ORC to post
> something like this.
>
> Here is a link to the article:
>
> http://www.off-road.com/glamis/rentalride/index.html
>
>
>
> -Len Sullivan 1978 J-10
> -FSJ List Administrator
> -Phoenix, AZ ICQ# 38601959
> o ___
> ___/_II__I\___
> I__ _II__I_ _/
> (o) (o)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>
>
> ================================================== =========
> This list courtesy of Off-Road.Com: http://www.off-road.com
>
5470 From: Len Sullivan <kermit@c...>
Date: Fri Feb 4, 2000 11:57pm
Subject: Fw: Across the Dunes in a Rent-a-Car!!
----- Original Message -----
From: Len Sullivan <kermit@c...>
To: <lenhart@o...>; <rick@o...>; <dwaters@o...>
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 12:56 AM
Subject: Across the Dunes in a Rent-a-Car!!
> Gentleman,
>
> It has been brought to my attention that the following article has been
> posted on an ORC webpage:
>
> http://www.off-road.com/glamis/rentalride/index.html
>
> If a member of my list had posted anything like this, I and the other
> RESPONSIBLE off-road enthusiasts on the list would react immediately and
> strongly. We have all spent countless hours defending our sport from
those
> who would end public access to wilderness lands, yet ORC has seen fit to
> post exactly the kind of 'evidence' that is being used against us.
Granted,
> the author did not knock down any trees, drive in a streambed, or run over
> any endangered animals, but he did allow his vehicle to be operated in an
> unsafe manner resulting in the destruction of a rental vehicle, injuries
to
> his passengers, and the endangerment of other people in the
area........not
> to mention the five year old child in the backseat. If this article had
to
> be posted, it should have been done as a "what NOT to do" article, instead
> of glorifying this type of behavior. Irresponsible drivers like the
author
> of the piece and his 'partner' endanger our sport and provide ammunition
for
> our opponents every time they get behind the wheel. The tongue in cheek
> "disclaimer" at the end of the article makes the situation even worse.
This
> person is a criminal and a danger to himself and others around
> him.........not an author.
>
> If you truly support the concept of "Tread Lightly" you will immediately
> remove this article and post a retraction and apology in it's place. The
> outrage among the off-roading public has already started.....I first
learned
> about the article through a post encouraging a boycott of ORC by a member
of
> my local off-road club. Mr. Chicas replied to my post to the other ORC
> admins saying "Past that, let me make this very clear, we will never,
> ever, ever sucumb to the pressures of any group, entity or individual that
> wishes to censor content on ORC. To do so, would be 100% un-American." I
> suggest that you start listening to the groups, entities, and individuals
> rather soon..........
>
> You may consider it editorial license, but I consider it damaging to our
> sport. By allowing this article to be posted you have damaged our sport,
> damaged your public image, and endangered your advertising income. Do you
> really think that the companies that advertise on your pages wish to be
> associated with this kind of activity? How do you think 4 Wheel Drive
> Wholesalers will react when they see their advertisement on an article
> advocating illegal, destructive and dangerous activities? How long do you
> think they will continue to pay for that advertisement?
>
> On a more personal level, if you were leading a trail run and a member of
> your group began to act the way Mr. LeMarche and his co-driver did would
you
> allow it? Would you want a member of your family to rent the vehicle in
the
> article after Mr. LeMarche was finished with it? Would you allow your
wife
> and child to ride with a person who behaved this way? Would you willfully
> destroy a rental vehicle, defraud the rental company, and then brag about
> it? If not, why are you encouraging people to act this way by posting
this
> "article" on your site?
>
>
>
>
> -Len Sullivan 1978 J-10
> -FSJ List Administrator
> -Phoenix, AZ ICQ# 38601959
> o ___
> ___/_II__I\___
> I__ _II__I_ _/
> (o) (o)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>
5471 From: Rick VH <rvanhazel@s...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 1:23am
Subject: Re: Copy of letter to Off-road.com
I'm writing this mainly because it appeared to a long time internet geek
such as myself to be "flame bait". So I urge you take my comments as my own
opinion.
I'm certain that off-road.com stunt was done in the spirit of fun. The
first time I ever rented a car the guy at the counter described the $6 extra
charge for insurance, thereafter I titled it as the "Tell us where you left
it" insurance. I know a great deal of people that rent cars that drive them
to find out "what if I..". I interpret rental usage as 5000 miles on a
rental car = 20000 miles on a privately own car. For work I often travel
out of town and have to rent a car. It is not my fault that 99% of rentals
have automatic transmissions. Since I've always owned standard, I have a
tendency to stomp the floor looking for the clutch but get a large piece of
the break pedal. Or accidently throw it in park while its still moving.
Run speedbumps, curbs and large potholes over thinking I'm still in my 4x4
with 33's. I dont consider any of that irresponsible behavior.
For those of us who never use our turn signals to pull into our own
driveways or purposely leave the cap off our felt tip pens because the
directions said otherwise.. the article was humorous and is a great thing to
take the edge off of a long work week of coloring inside the lines. The
damage that was done to the vehicle I'm sure is covered by the rental car
agencies insurance. I personally paid for many years, a premium very near
equal to that of my loan payment per month. Why? My driving record has
always been clean.. they like to say its because of frivolous claims. I
think its because of the one guy that gets to sue over a broken fingernail
and wins 50 million dollars. (for those without calculators.. that equals
1666 $30k blazers) The statistic for SUV's goes something like 90% of them
never get to be driven off pavement. For the thousands I've paid in
insurance, I'm happy to see that some of it has gone to the proper usage of
a Chevy Blazer.
Rick
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe West [mailto:Joe.West@f...]
> Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 9:55 PM
> To: 'jeep-l@m...'; 'jeep-tj@m...';
> 'jeeptech@m...'; 'swbjeep@m...';
> az_vjc@egroups.com; 'lenhart@o...'
> Cc: 'abuse@p...'; 'abuse@a...'; 'feedback@h...';
> 'online_feedback@t...'; 'abuse@b...'; 'jbeeman@h...'
> Subject: [az_vjc] Copy of letter to Off-road.com
>
>
> Mr. Lenhart,
>
> You don't know me from Adam, and you could probably care less
> about hearing
> from one more person concerning the appropriateness of the article on your
> web page concerning the use of a rental vehicle. I've seen at least one
> response from you to another off-roader which clearly indicated that you
> don't appreciate anyone telling you how to run your business...
> or your web
> page. However, I suspect that even you, when you step back from
> the emotion
> of the moment; would agree that reckless behavior such as that
> portrayed in
> the story on your page is at best; inappropriate, and at worst;
> illegal and
> extremely damaging to a sport I love... and would like to
> continue to enjoy.
> I'm asking you to consider removing this article... and before you say no;
> consider this: If a child of yours came home and told you this
> story about
> what they had done to someone else's property, would it be something you
> would be proud of? Would you want it published for everyone in
> the world to
> see? Think of your position in the offroad community as a leader... a
> father if you will... and people new to our hobby of
> offroading... children
> if you will; don't know any better, and they may very well copy what they
> see.
> Is this the kind of leadership you want to show them:
>
http://www.off-road.com/glamis/rentalride/index.html
I don't expect a response from you... but understand that I too have an
obligation to my sport. My obligation extends past what makes good copy and
brings readers to my web page... it extends into being an advocate for our
sport, into being a responsible adult who has a sincere respect for both the
environment, and other people's property.
Unfortunately, if you feel that this article is an important place to stand
up for your journalistic liberty rather than your ethical
responsibilities... I'll be forced, as have others, to boycott your web page
and try to convince others to do the same. I suspect that a nice retraction
of the material in question, with something attached noting your temporary
lack of editorial judgement would be extremely effective in mending some
ever deepening wounds.
Regards,
Joe F. West
98TJ Completely Stock, Not an aftermarket part on it.
http://members.home.com/joewest2/
(Okay... so I lied) <grin>
PS. I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few people haven't taken the liberty
of contacting all the rental car companies and forwarding them links to your
page. While I suspect you make a great deal of money from your web page.. I
suspect that they make vastly more than you do. I promise you, if you delay
the retraction of this story for too long; the person who's picture is in
that article may very well be in for a serious lawsuit.
Good Luck with your decision, and best wishes...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Valentine's Day Shopping Made Simple.
http://click.egroups.com/1/1150/4/_/1966/_/949726573/
-- Check out your group's private Chat room
-- http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=az_vjc&m=1
5472 From: Len Sullivan <kermit@c...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 0:37am
Subject: Fw: [FSJ-List] Fw: proposed boycott of ORC
For those of you who think that the ORC article won't really hurt anything
and doesn't matter, here is my response to a posting on the FSJ list
regarding that:
Len
----- Original Message -----
From: Len Sullivan <kermit@c...>
To: <fsj-list@m...>
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: [FSJ-List] Fw: proposed boycott of ORC
> Jason -
>
> My "righteous indignation" as you call it was not caused by the death of a
> chevy blazer.....it is because our own sponsor is advocating and
glorifying
> irresponsible behavior by off-road drivers. Do you really think that the
> eco-freaks will ignore it because the event took place on a sand dune?
No -
> they won't. The main reason they are trying to close public land to
> vehicular traffic is that they perceive ALL off road drivers to be idiots
> like the ones in the article......dangerous and irresponsible, destroying
> anything in their path heedless of damage to their vehicle or injury to
> their passengers or innocent bystanders.
>
> What if there had been a stalled or stuck vehicle full of kids behind the
> dune they jumped over?
>
> The actions depicted in the article and the fact that a highly visible off
> road website posted it are EXACTLY the kind of 'proof' that will be used
to
> convince the voting public that we are all dangerous individuals that
> shouldn't be allowed to travel over public land. Think about it........an
> article by the Sierra Club quoting the ORC article as proof that
off-roaders
> in general support this kind of activity. After all, if we didn't think
it
> was fun we wouldn't have it on the website, would we?
>
> Go to some of the local off road clubs in your area and ask them about
> public relations. Keeping public lands open to vehicle access is a
> difficult fight, and we need all the help we can get. That's why we have
> "clean up runs" and take Boy Scouts with us....to show the public that we
> aren't all uncaring idiots and that it is a small minority that behaves
> badly.
>
> Or look at it this way........how would Handgun Control Inc. react to an
> article on the NRA website describing how much fun it was to shoot up
> private property and how not to get caught? The responsible shooters
would
> know that it was just a case of one idiot who never should have been
allowed
> to have a gun, but the voting public would see it as approval of this type
> of activity by all gun owners (represented by the NRA) and try to get more
> gun control laws passed to prevent it.
>
> If we don't ALL defend our sport EVERY DAY, we may not be able to enjoy it
> any longer.........all because of a few idiots that got more press time
than
> we did. Allowing ORC to get away with this is just shooting ourselves in
> the foot.
>
>
> -Len Sullivan 1978 J-10
> -FSJ List Administrator
> -Phoenix, AZ ICQ# 38601959
> o ___
> ___/_II__I\___
> I__ _II__I_ _/
> (o) (o)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jason Whitaker <jasonwhitaker@b...>
> To: <fsj-list@m...>
> Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 2:07 AM
> Subject: RE: [FSJ-List] Fw: proposed boycott of ORC
>
>
> > Ok, maybe I'm kinda slow but I don't see what deserves this much uproar.
> Are
> > the greenies going to start listing rental cars as endangered species?
> Sure
> > he busted a rental and he's a bad person but I don't see how, just
because
> > it was an suv, that it gives the enviromentalists any ammo about us.
This
> > guy could have done the same thing in a Honda Accord. He was in the
middle
> > of a rec area, sandrails all over. If he was charging across pristine
> > wilderness god yes but I personally don't think an article about some
> idiot
> > breaking a rental is worth fragmenting the offroad community. If we want
> to
> > boycott ORC because they published an article that demonstrates bad
morals
> > great but I have to think that turning this into a big war isn't going
to
> > help our fight against the greenies.
> > Maybe, everyone's taking their righteous indignation a bit to the
extreme?
> > Looks like Mr. Chicas sent you the same letter he sends the eviro
> > extremists, and I wouldn't want ORC bowing to them either.
> >
> > Jason Whitaker
> > '78 Wag
> > Loveland CO
> >
>
>
5473 From: Len Sullivan <kermit@c...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 0:50am
Subject: Fw: Your demands have been met
I guess I can change my sig line now. Would have been nice if he had gotten
my name right when he fired me.
Lesson: free speech only applies to the big people....not the little ones
Happy Trails, Pat
-Len Sullivan 1978 J-10
-Phoenix, AZ ICQ# 38601959
o ___
___/_II__I\___
I__ _II__I_ _/
(o) (o)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Chicas <pjc@o...>
To: <kermit@c...>; <fsj-list@o...>
Cc: <estaff@o...>
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 2:41 AM
Subject: Your demands have been met
>
> In your message:
>
> >Date: 2000-02-05 00:13:12
> >Author: "Len Sullivan" <kermit@c...>
> >Subject: [FSJ-List] Fw: proposed boycott of ORC
> >
> >This is the reply sent by Mr. Chicas to a message I sent to all of the
> >ORC list admins. My initial response to this consists of only two words,
> >which I cannot use on the list because it would violate my own rules. My
> >personal feelings are if ORC wishes to continue this kind of thing they
> >can do it without me being associated with them. If this isn't resolved
> >DAMN FAST, y'all will either have a new administrator or you'll be
> >receiving your list posts from e-groups instead of ORC.
> >
> >
> >-Len Sullivan 1978 J-10
>
>
> Ken, as mentioned we do not take threats and demands lightly. You as an
> individual, do not call the shots at ORC.
>
> I have removed your access as list admin. We will now handle this
> internaly.
>
> Again, we will make a statement on the rental car issue on the 1st.
>
> Thanks for your help in the past.
>
> PJC
>
>
>
5474 From: Joe West <Joe.West@f...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 4:44am
Subject: Reply to Copy of letter to Off-road.com
Mr. Lenhart,
Thank you for your reply; I'm somewhat surprised that you found the time to
answer, and I appreciate the fact that you did.
While you somewhat stated the obvious about your site not being for
children; you clearly missed my point by taking my analogy literally... I
didn't mean that I'm worried literally about "Children" reading your
publication but rather, I am worried that you are setting a bad example for
people who may not know any better; and you have a journalistic obligation
to do so... unless of course you prefer to become the "National Enquirer" of
the online offroad world. To shirk your responsibilities by hiding behind
censorship issue is ridiculous, but something I expected. If I were to
follow your logic; you have no responsibility for anything you print because
"It's not *your* job to teach people what is right or wrong, it's the
parent's job". I'm sorry my friend, but you do have responsibilities... and
you have the right to ignore them if you choose.
One telling thought though... you completely failed to answer the most
important question in my letter so I will repeat it for you:
If a child of yours came home and told you this story about what they had
done to someone else's property, would it be something you would be proud
of? Would you want it published for everyone in the world to see?
If the answer is no; you wouldn't be proud of them for tearing up someone
else's property then you know why I'm disappointed in you for publishing
this article. If the answer is yes; you would be proud of your children for
displaying such behavior, then I apologize to you for bothering you with
these letters; I should be writing them to your parents.
Sincerely,
Joe F. West
Mr West,
I am sure you are aware that this is not a publication for children.
This is a publication for adults. Not a porn site, but a site geared toward
people old enough to drive.
It is the responsibility of parents to control what their children read, and
what they learn from.
As you resent the fact that ORC published this article, being a parent, I
too resent the fact that you have resorted to the time honored tactic of the
liberal elite. You appeal to us to censor the article
"For the Children"
My advice to people choosing to resort to this tactic, as a parent and as
the editor of Off-Road.com is this. Be a parent to your kids. Pay attention
to what they are doing.
It is not my job, nor the job of A-N-Y publication, to do parents jobs for
them.
For Off-Road.com's offical response, please see the upcoming March issue of
our publication.
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe West <Joe.West@f...>
To: 'jeep-l@m...' <jeep-l@m...>;
'jeep-tj@m...' <jeep-tj@m...>;
'jeeptech@m...' <jeeptech@m...>;
'swbjeep@m...' <swbjeep@m...>; az_vjc@egroups.com
<az_vjc@egroups.com>; 'lenhart@o...' <lenhart@o...>
Cc: 'abuse@p...' <abuse@p...>; 'abuse@a...'
<abuse@a...>; 'feedback@h...' <feedback@h...>;
'online_feedback@t...' <online_feedback@t...>;
'abuse@b...' <abuse@b...>; 'jbeeman@h...' <jbeeman@h...>
Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 8:56 PM
Subject: Copy of letter to Off-road.com
>Mr. Lenhart,
>
>You don't know me from Adam, and you could probably care less about hearing
>from one more person concerning the appropriateness of the article on your
>web page concerning the use of a rental vehicle. I've seen at least one
>response from you to another off-roader which clearly indicated that you
>don't appreciate anyone telling you how to run your business... or your web
>page. However, I suspect that even you, when you step back from the
emotion
>of the moment; would agree that reckless behavior such as that portrayed in
>the story on your page is at best; inappropriate, and at worst; illegal and
>extremely damaging to a sport I love... and would like to continue to
enjoy.
>I'm asking you to consider removing this article... and before you say no;
>consider this: If a child of yours came home and told you this story about
>what they had done to someone else's property, would it be something you
>would be proud of? Would you want it published for everyone in the world
to
>see? Think of your position in the offroad community as a leader... a
>father if you will... and people new to our hobby of offroading... children
>if you will; don't know any better, and they may very well copy what they
>see.
>Is this the kind of leadership you want to show them:
>
>http://www.off-road.com/glamis/rentalride/index.html
>
>
>I don't expect a response from you... but understand that I too have an
>obligation to my sport. My obligation extends past what makes good copy
and
>brings readers to my web page... it extends into being an advocate for our
>sport, into being a responsible adult who has a sincere respect for both
the
>environment, and other people's property.
>Unfortunately, if you feel that this article is an important place to stand
>up for your journalistic liberty rather than your ethical
>responsibilities... I'll be forced, as have others, to boycott your web
page
>and try to convince others to do the same. I suspect that a nice
retraction
>of the material in question, with something attached noting your temporary
>lack of editorial judgement would be extremely effective in mending some
>ever deepening wounds.
>
>Regards,
>
>Joe F. West
>98TJ Completely Stock, Not an aftermarket part on it.
>http://members.home.com/joewest2/
>(Okay... so I lied) <grin>
>
>
>PS. I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few people haven't taken the
liberty
>of contacting all the rental car companies and forwarding them links to
your
>page. While I suspect you make a great deal of money from your web page..
I
>suspect that they make vastly more than you do. I promise you, if you
delay
>the retraction of this story for too long; the person who's picture is in
>that article may very well be in for a serious lawsuit.
>
>Good Luck with your decision, and best wishes...
>
================================================== ===
For unsubscribe info see http://www.off-road.com/4x4web/jeep/jeeplists.htm
This list courtesy of Off-Road.Com: http://www.off-road.com
5475 From: Jon Loveless <jloveless@e...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 6:47am
Subject: Decal ordering
If anyone would like to order an AZ_VJC decal, instructions are up at the
eGroup site under Classifieds.
Choose [Classifieds] from:
http://www.egroups.com/wdb?listname=az_vjc
See the Decal at:
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=22547&a=905123
Jon
---------------------------
Jon Loveless
480-816-6240
jloveless@e...
----------------------------
5476 From: Leonard K. Pennock <leonardpennock@h...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 7:07am
Subject: Re: Fw: Your demands have been met
Len Sullivan wrote:
>
> I guess I can change my sig line now. Would have been nice if he had gotten
> my name right when he fired me.
>
> Lesson: free speech only applies to the big people....not the little ones
>
Kind of funny that you are demanding censorship by wanting the article
removed and then claim free speech doesn't apply to you. Kind of
hypocritical don't you think?
> Happy Trails, Pat
>
> -Len Sullivan 1978 J-10
> -Phoenix, AZ ICQ# 38601959
> o ___
> ___/_II__I\___
> I__ _II__I_ _/
> (o) (o)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Patrick Chicas <pjc@o...>
> To: <kermit@c...>; <fsj-list@o...>
> Cc: <estaff@o...>
> Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 2:41 AM
> Subject: Your demands have been met
>
> >
> > In your message:
> >
> > >Date: 2000-02-05 00:13:12
> > >Author: "Len Sullivan" <kermit@c...>
> > >Subject: [FSJ-List] Fw: proposed boycott of ORC
> > >
> > >This is the reply sent by Mr. Chicas to a message I sent to all of the
> > >ORC list admins. My initial response to this consists of only two words,
> > >which I cannot use on the list because it would violate my own rules. My
> > >personal feelings are if ORC wishes to continue this kind of thing they
> > >can do it without me being associated with them. If this isn't resolved
> > >DAMN FAST, y'all will either have a new administrator or you'll be
> > >receiving your list posts from e-groups instead of ORC.
> > >
> > >
> > >-Len Sullivan 1978 J-10
> >
> >
> > Ken, as mentioned we do not take threats and demands lightly. You as an
> > individual, do not call the shots at ORC.
> >
> > I have removed your access as list admin. We will now handle this
> > internaly.
> >
> > Again, we will make a statement on the rental car issue on the 1st.
> >
> > Thanks for your help in the past.
> >
> > PJC
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Valentine's Day Shopping Made Simple.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/1150/4/_/1966/_/949744723/
>
> -- Check out your group's private Chat room
> -- http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=az_vjc&m=1
--
Leonard K. Pennock
Those who walk bravely through life, unafraid of loss or failure,
find that they very rarely lose or fail.
5477 From: Leonard K. Pennock <leonardpennock@h...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 7:11am
Subject: Re: Copy of letter to Off-road.com
As I've always said about buying a rental car. They are driven by
people that don't have a nickel invested in them.
Rick VH wrote:
>
> I'm writing this mainly because it appeared to a long time internet geek
> such as myself to be "flame bait". So I urge you take my comments as my own
> opinion.
>
> I'm certain that off-road.com stunt was done in the spirit of fun. The
> first time I ever rented a car the guy at the counter described the $6 extra
> charge for insurance, thereafter I titled it as the "Tell us where you left
> it" insurance. I know a great deal of people that rent cars that drive them
> to find out "what if I..". I interpret rental usage as 5000 miles on a
> rental car = 20000 miles on a privately own car. For work I often travel
> out of town and have to rent a car. It is not my fault that 99% of rentals
> have automatic transmissions. Since I've always owned standard, I have a
> tendency to stomp the floor looking for the clutch but get a large piece of
> the break pedal. Or accidently throw it in park while its still moving.
> Run speedbumps, curbs and large potholes over thinking I'm still in my 4x4
> with 33's. I dont consider any of that irresponsible behavior.
>
> For those of us who never use our turn signals to pull into our own
> driveways or purposely leave the cap off our felt tip pens because the
> directions said otherwise.. the article was humorous and is a great thing to
> take the edge off of a long work week of coloring inside the lines. The
> damage that was done to the vehicle I'm sure is covered by the rental car
> agencies insurance. I personally paid for many years, a premium very near
> equal to that of my loan payment per month. Why? My driving record has
> always been clean.. they like to say its because of frivolous claims. I
> think its because of the one guy that gets to sue over a broken fingernail
> and wins 50 million dollars. (for those without calculators.. that equals
> 1666 $30k blazers) The statistic for SUV's goes something like 90% of them
> never get to be driven off pavement. For the thousands I've paid in
> insurance, I'm happy to see that some of it has gone to the proper usage of
> a Chevy Blazer.
>
> Rick
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joe West [mailto:Joe.West@f...]
> > Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 9:55 PM
> > To: 'jeep-l@m...'; 'jeep-tj@m...';
> > 'jeeptech@m...'; 'swbjeep@m...';
> > az_vjc@egroups.com; 'lenhart@o...'
> > Cc: 'abuse@p...'; 'abuse@a...'; 'feedback@h...';
> > 'online_feedback@t...'; 'abuse@b...'; 'jbeeman@h...'
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Copy of letter to Off-road.com
> >
> >
> > Mr. Lenhart,
> >
> > You don't know me from Adam, and you could probably care less
> > about hearing
> > from one more person concerning the appropriateness of the article on your
> > web page concerning the use of a rental vehicle. I've seen at least one
> > response from you to another off-roader which clearly indicated that you
> > don't appreciate anyone telling you how to run your business...
> > or your web
> > page. However, I suspect that even you, when you step back from
> > the emotion
> > of the moment; would agree that reckless behavior such as that
> > portrayed in
> > the story on your page is at best; inappropriate, and at worst;
> > illegal and
> > extremely damaging to a sport I love... and would like to
> > continue to enjoy.
> > I'm asking you to consider removing this article... and before you say no;
> > consider this: If a child of yours came home and told you this
> > story about
> > what they had done to someone else's property, would it be something you
> > would be proud of? Would you want it published for everyone in
> > the world to
> > see? Think of your position in the offroad community as a leader... a
> > father if you will... and people new to our hobby of
> > offroading... children
> > if you will; don't know any better, and they may very well copy what they
> > see.
> > Is this the kind of leadership you want to show them:
> >
> http://www.off-road.com/glamis/rentalride/index.html
>
> I don't expect a response from you... but understand that I too have an
> obligation to my sport. My obligation extends past what makes good copy and
> brings readers to my web page... it extends into being an advocate for our
> sport, into being a responsible adult who has a sincere respect for both the
> environment, and other people's property.
> Unfortunately, if you feel that this article is an important place to stand
> up for your journalistic liberty rather than your ethical
> responsibilities... I'll be forced, as have others, to boycott your web page
> and try to convince others to do the same. I suspect that a nice retraction
> of the material in question, with something attached noting your temporary
> lack of editorial judgement would be extremely effective in mending some
> ever deepening wounds.
>
> Regards,
>
> Joe F. West
> 98TJ Completely Stock, Not an aftermarket part on it.
> http://members.home.com/joewest2/
> (Okay... so I lied) <grin>
>
> PS. I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few people haven't taken the liberty
> of contacting all the rental car companies and forwarding them links to your
> page. While I suspect you make a great deal of money from your web page.. I
> suspect that they make vastly more than you do. I promise you, if you delay
> the retraction of this story for too long; the person who's picture is in
> that article may very well be in for a serious lawsuit.
>
> Good Luck with your decision, and best wishes...
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Valentine's Day Shopping Made Simple.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/1150/4/_/1966/_/949726573/
>
> -- Check out your group's private Chat room
> -- http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=az_vjc&m=1
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Body Paint, Chocolates, & Roses Oh My!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/1151/4/_/1966/_/949742543/
>
> -- Create a poll/survey for your group!
> -- http://www.egroups.com/vote?listname=az_vjc&m=1
--
Leonard K. Pennock
Those who walk bravely through life, unafraid of loss or failure,
find that they very rarely lose or fail.
5478 From: Jon Loveless <jloveless@e...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 7:05am
Subject: Tech sites
I have added a couple of Tech sites to the eGroups database. We now have 6
entries and there are lots more out there. This can become an invaluable
resource, so if you have a site with Tech Tips, or know of one, please
enter it here. Everyone will benefit.
http://www.egroups.com/wdb?listname=az_vjc and click Tech Links.
---------------------------
Jon Loveless
480-816-6240
jloveless@e...
----------------------------
5479 From: Joe West <Joe.West@f...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 7:13am
Subject: Re: Fw: Your demands have been met
Pat,
Demanding censorship or responsible behavior? I think Len was responding to
the fact that offroad.com fired him as list administrator because he voiced
his opinion to them... in other words; He can talk freely on their list if
and only if his opinion agrees with theirs.
Make sense now?
Joe F. West
98TJ Completely Stock, Not an aftermarket part on it.
http://members.home.com/joewest2/
(Okay... so I lied) <grin>
-----Original Message-----
From: Leonard K. Pennock [mailto:leonardpennock@h...]
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 8:08 AM
To: Len Sullivan
Cc: FSJ-List; AZVJC; Adam (school); Doc; Mike and Laurie; Patrick
Chicas; carnuck@w...
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Fw: Your demands have been met
Len Sullivan wrote:
>
> I guess I can change my sig line now. Would have been nice if he had
gotten
> my name right when he fired me.
>
> Lesson: free speech only applies to the big people....not the little ones
>
Kind of funny that you are demanding censorship by wanting the article
removed and then claim free speech doesn't apply to you. Kind of
hypocritical don't you think?
> Happy Trails, Pat
>
> -Len Sullivan 1978 J-10
> -Phoenix, AZ ICQ# 38601959
> o ___
> ___/_II__I\___
> I__ _II__I_ _/
> (o) (o)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Patrick Chicas <pjc@o...>
> To: <kermit@c...>; <fsj-list@o...>
> Cc: <estaff@o...>
> Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 2:41 AM
> Subject: Your demands have been met
>
> >
> > In your message:
> >
> > >Date: 2000-02-05 00:13:12
> > >Author: "Len Sullivan" <kermit@c...>
> > >Subject: [FSJ-List] Fw: proposed boycott of ORC
> > >
> > >This is the reply sent by Mr. Chicas to a message I sent to all of the
> > >ORC list admins. My initial response to this consists of only two
words,
> > >which I cannot use on the list because it would violate my own rules.
My
> > >personal feelings are if ORC wishes to continue this kind of thing they
> > >can do it without me being associated with them. If this isn't resolved
> > >DAMN FAST, y'all will either have a new administrator or you'll be
> > >receiving your list posts from e-groups instead of ORC.
> > >
> > >
> > >-Len Sullivan 1978 J-10
> >
> >
> > Ken, as mentioned we do not take threats and demands lightly. You as an
> > individual, do not call the shots at ORC.
> >
> > I have removed your access as list admin. We will now handle this
> > internaly.
> >
> > Again, we will make a statement on the rental car issue on the 1st.
> >
> > Thanks for your help in the past.
> >
> > PJC
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Valentine's Day Shopping Made Simple.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/1150/4/_/1966/_/949744723/
>
> -- Check out your group's private Chat room
> -- http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=az_vjc&m=1
--
Leonard K. Pennock
Those who walk bravely through life, unafraid of loss or failure,
find that they very rarely lose or fail.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you want to be single again,
Don't buy your Valentine a Gift by clicking here.
http://click.egroups.com/1/1153/4/_/1966/_/949763314/
-- Talk to your group with your own voice!
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5480 From: Leonard K. Pennock <leonardpennock@h...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 7:25am
Subject: Re: Fw: Your demands have been met
Stated below was "they can do it without me being associated with
them". So they took the statment at face value and removed him. IMHO
it is like walking into the boss and saying if I don't get my way I'll
quit and the boss walking you to the front door.
Expressing dislike of something is reasonable, demanding it be removed
because you don't agree with it is not. Will I don't think the person in
the article showed good taste, I beleive he has everyright to write
about it and ORC has every write to publish it. I do beleive that they
should provide a forum for people to write rebuttals but it isn't a
requirement for them.
I've now said all I'm going to say on this because I don't believe that
AZ_VJC is for politicial discussions which is what this is becoming.
Leonard
Joe West wrote:
>
> Pat,
>
> Demanding censorship or responsible behavior? I think Len was responding to
> the fact that offroad.com fired him as list administrator because he voiced
> his opinion to them... in other words; He can talk freely on their list if
> and only if his opinion agrees with theirs.
>
> Make sense now?
>
> Joe F. West
> 98TJ Completely Stock, Not an aftermarket part on it.
> http://members.home.com/joewest2/
> (Okay... so I lied) <grin>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leonard K. Pennock [mailto:leonardpennock@h...]
> Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 8:08 AM
> To: Len Sullivan
> Cc: FSJ-List; AZVJC; Adam (school); Doc; Mike and Laurie; Patrick
> Chicas; carnuck@w...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Fw: Your demands have been met
>
> Len Sullivan wrote:
> >
> > I guess I can change my sig line now. Would have been nice if he had
> gotten
> > my name right when he fired me.
> >
> > Lesson: free speech only applies to the big people....not the little ones
> >
>
> Kind of funny that you are demanding censorship by wanting the article
> removed and then claim free speech doesn't apply to you. Kind of
> hypocritical don't you think?
>
> > Happy Trails, Pat
> >
> > -Len Sullivan 1978 J-10
> > -Phoenix, AZ ICQ# 38601959
> > o ___
> > ___/_II__I\___
> > I__ _II__I_ _/
> > (o) (o)
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Patrick Chicas <pjc@o...>
> > To: <kermit@c...>; <fsj-list@o...>
> > Cc: <estaff@o...>
> > Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 2:41 AM
> > Subject: Your demands have been met
> >
> > >
> > > In your message:
> > >
> > > >Date: 2000-02-05 00:13:12
> > > >Author: "Len Sullivan" <kermit@c...>
> > > >Subject: [FSJ-List] Fw: proposed boycott of ORC
> > > >
> > > >This is the reply sent by Mr. Chicas to a message I sent to all of the
> > > >ORC list admins. My initial response to this consists of only two
> words,
> > > >which I cannot use on the list because it would violate my own rules.
> My
> > > >personal feelings are if ORC wishes to continue this kind of thing they
> > > >can do it without me being associated with them. If this isn't resolved
> > > >DAMN FAST, y'all will either have a new administrator or you'll be
> > > >receiving your list posts from e-groups instead of ORC.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >-Len Sullivan 1978 J-10
> > >
> > >
> > > Ken, as mentioned we do not take threats and demands lightly. You as an
> > > individual, do not call the shots at ORC.
> > >
> > > I have removed your access as list admin. We will now handle this
> > > internaly.
> > >
> > > Again, we will make a statement on the rental car issue on the 1st.
> > >
> > > Thanks for your help in the past.
> > >
> > > PJC
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Valentine's Day Shopping Made Simple.
> > http://click.egroups.com/1/1150/4/_/1966/_/949744723/
> >
> > -- Check out your group's private Chat room
> > -- http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=az_vjc&m=1
>
> --
> Leonard K. Pennock
>
> Those who walk bravely through life, unafraid of loss or failure,
> find that they very rarely lose or fail.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> If you want to be single again,
> Don't buy your Valentine a Gift by clicking here.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/1153/4/_/1966/_/949763314/
>
> -- Talk to your group with your own voice!
> -- http://www.egroups.com/VoiceChatPage?listName=az_vjc&m=1
--
Leonard K. Pennock
Those who walk bravely through life, unafraid of loss or failure,
find that they very rarely lose or fail.
5481 From: Jon Loveless <jloveless@e...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 7:37am
Subject: Re: Fw: Your demands have been met
AMEN.
At 08:25 AM 2/5/2000 -0700, Leonard K. Pennock wrote:
I've now said all I'm going to say on this because I don't believe that
AZ_VJC is for politicial discussions which is what this is becoming.
---------------------------
Jon Loveless
480-816-6240
jloveless@earthlink.net
----------------------------
5482 From: Maniatico <maniatico@h...>
Date: Tue Mar 7, 2000 2:30pm
Subject: Crown King Run
I'm still waiting for Earnhardt's to finish installing a new transfer case
in my Jeep. They originally said it would be ready last Wed., but now they
say Monday. So . . I won't be able to make the Crown King run tomorrow.
Hope to get the next trip up. Have fun everyone!!
Maniatico
-----Original Message-----
From: Sharxjeep@c... [mailto:Sharxjeep@c...]
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 8:38 AM
To: four_by_nut@n...
Cc: az_vjc@egroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: any run plan for this upcoming weekend!
We also have a run going to Crown King on Sunday if you are interested.
Sharky (97 Red TJ)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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5483 From: Big Elmer <ezrydr1@y...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 4:45pm
Subject: MOTOROLA TALKABOUT RADIOS
Hey Everyone, I saw post the other day about COSTCO having these neat
little rradios on sale, went in to get a couple, and was informed only
availible on line, at www.costco.com , the sale is good through the
8th.
5484 From: Andrew F. Mason <afmason@h...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 6:19pm
Subject: Reminder about Crown King trip tomorrow
I would appreciate it if all who are going on the Crown King trip would try
to be at the Southeast corner of I-17 and Carefree Hwy at 8:00. We are
meeting up with another group of about 4 vehicles at 99th Ave and carefree
Hwy at around 8:30, so If we are all there at around 8:00 we can leave a
little before the scheduled departure time of 8:30.
If all who are planning to attend can reply to this email tonight, I would
appreciate it. I would like to have an accurate headcount for tomorrow.
Thanks and see you tomorrow morning.
Andy & Tina Mason
Black 99TJ
5485 From: Tom Dunn <ripper56@c...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 7:17pm
Subject: Re: Hand Held CB?????
Seeing all the interest in CBs, just thought I'd pass along
some info. At www.sportsmansguide.com they have GE handhelds
on sale for $29.95 and Midland onboards for $59.95. This is
a highly reputable outfit and a great source of gear. New,
surplus and otherwise.
-Tom Dunn, (ripper56)
5486 From: Ken Unterriner <jeep108@h...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 8:42pm
Subject: Re: MOTOROLA TALKABOUT RADIOS
I was just in the costco at superstition springs and noticed they had
some of these radios.I remembered them being mentioned.
Ken U
"big elmer" <ezrydr-@y...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/az_vjc/?start=5483
> Hey Everyone, I saw post the other day about COSTCO having these neat
> little rradios on sale, went in to get a couple, and was informed only
> availible on line, at www.costco.com , the sale is good through the
> 8th.
>
5487 From: Leonard K. Pennock <leonardpennock@h...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 9:00pm
Subject: Re: Reminder about Crown King trip tomorrow
Will anyone be on FRS in addition to the CB. If so what channel?
"Andrew F. Mason" wrote:
>
> I would appreciate it if all who are going on the Crown King trip would try
> to be at the Southeast corner of I-17 and Carefree Hwy at 8:00. We are
> meeting up with another group of about 4 vehicles at 99th Ave and carefree
> Hwy at around 8:30, so If we are all there at around 8:00 we can leave a
> little before the scheduled departure time of 8:30.
>
> If all who are planning to attend can reply to this email tonight, I would
> appreciate it. I would like to have an accurate headcount for tomorrow.
>
> Thanks and see you tomorrow morning.
>
> Andy & Tina Mason
> Black 99TJ
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Shop for your Valentine at eGroups!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/1149/4/_/1966/_/949803564/
>
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--
Leonard K. Pennock
Those who walk bravely through life, unafraid of loss or failure,
find that they very rarely lose or fail.
5488 From: Tom Quinn <tomquinn@u...>
Date: Sat Feb 5, 2000 8:34am
Subject: Motorola Talkabout Plus radios
For anyone interested, you can purchase Motorola Talkabout Plus radios at www.costco.com for $49.99 + about $3 shipping + tax. Limit 2 per household. I think this price is good through 02/08 and is only good on-line, not in stores. I'm not sure if you have to be a member of Costco or not on-line as the membership number was an optional field when I signed up for an on-line account.
They have the regular Talkabouts for $42.99. These are the ones without the digital channel display.
Tom
Tom Quinn
Jeep ONDAROX
tomquinn@uswest.net
http://ondarox.web.com