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Antman
03-07-2009, 08:48 AM
Check out this article in Moab Jeeper

http://www.moabjeeper.com/articles/general/listing.cfm?articleID=487



:eek:

Benjeepin2day
03-07-2009, 10:14 AM
Trespassing on Public Land???? Does that sound totally ironic?????

Wind_Danzer
03-07-2009, 11:17 AM
And the scary thing, nothing is stopping AZ BLM from doing it too.

urbex
03-07-2009, 11:29 AM
Ok, how is any different than permits for use on state lands? I remember back in Michigan, I couldn't even touch off road areas without a OHV permit. If we want to go on STL land here, everyone needs individual permits. I'm not saying any of it is right, but it's hardly new. This setup is particularly horrible, actually...

Benjeepin2day
03-07-2009, 11:43 AM
Ok, how is any different than permits for use on state lands? I remember back in Michigan, I couldn't even touch off road areas without a OHV permit. If we want to go on STL land here, everyone needs individual permits. I'm not saying any of it is right, but it's hardly new. This setup is particularly horrible, actually...


The biggest problem is the "organized event" they way they are calling it, is if I call you and three and four others to go out wheeling then it would require an organized event permit that you will have to apply for in advance. I think the article said 180 days in advance. I guess I shouldn't use the term would because you actually do have to apply for. It is mostly up to the BLM division or officer that stops you. alot of grey areas in the way they write it. Oh well. I will use this aproach:

"If you do venture forth and enter the BLM kingdom, try to do your best to look disorganized and confused. Maybe hold a couple of Alka-Seltzer in your mouth and let the foam spill out. This might work to show you're not smart enough to organize anything or maybe scare off the BLM officer. If it works let us know."

wild mustang
03-07-2009, 07:39 PM
i agree...it is all the gray areas in their policy. essentially they can interpret it any way they want...they could cite any "group" at any time....

also the application time required for "events"....4 months? (even if they are not commercial in nature) see the example in the article. that group, even though not on a sponsored/commercial outing would need to have submitted the application 4 months prior to going.

in addition, they can charge fees to process the application....i would think that the funding they receive from our federal taxes would cover employee salaries to do just this!

Sedona Jeep School
03-08-2009, 02:39 PM
I am more intimately familiar with Forest Service policies, which are usually very similar to BLM. My experience with BLM permits is that they are actually EASIER to obtain than Forest Service permits. This article is somewhat obfuscating, though I can only blame hours of reading through land management rules and regs for the wandering nature of the piece. We always need to watchdog.

By USFS defs, a permit is required for any event that consists of a gathering of 75 or more people OR any event for which money is collected to attend regardless of the number of participants (or other commercial gain--for example, filming a movie).

Permits usually take about 60 days, as long as it is not too complicated. An event like Easter Jeep Safari takes longer because it is a huge, week-long event, where certain trails are actually closed to other users for the event, etc.

Fees are usually based on roughly 3% of the event gross.

As a long-time commercial AND private user of public land, I have always viewed these regs as a PROTECTION of my right for non-commercial individual access. The land managers are actually holding all kinds of commercial uses at bay in order to preserve some enjoyment for the private, non-commercial user. Example: If Pink Jeep did not have permit limitations on Broken Arrow, could you imagine what it might be like trying to access that trail on a busy Saturday? What about mining, lumber, and cattle interests? All of these competing interests are juggled by the land managers, mixed in with the individual whinings of hikers, bikers, jeepers, birdwatchers, ufo-spotters, etc.

As a known commercial user, I have been questioned by the forest service when seen leading a group of Jeeps through a trail. I don't mind.

I do mind when a group of 30 4x4's shows up to run a trail without any forethought to parking, traffic control, or consideration for other users on a small trail, whether they are commercial or not. If they have applied for a rec permit, they at least have been forced to think about these things.

We all complain that we don't need more regs, we need more enforcement. I am glad to hear that LEO's are out there at least asking people about their activities, commercial or not.

wild mustang
03-08-2009, 07:03 PM
thanks nena for that info...it always helps to have someone that has first hand knowledge of an issue.....

of course, that makes it difficult to maintain the injured party stance....:laugh2:

lancetkenyon
03-08-2009, 08:35 PM
So honestly, how does this effect the weekend wheeler who runs in a small group? Say, up to 10 rigs or so?

urbex
03-08-2009, 09:10 PM
So honestly, how does this effect the weekend wheeler who runs in a small group? Say, up to 10 rigs or so?

From the way it appears in that wording, it's up to the discretion of the local BLM offices to decide what a "group" is. From the looks of it, if they wanted to be real pricks about it, they could claim than any number above one could be subject to needing a permit. I'm also not seeing anything in there about number of vehicles. So if we're taking this at face value, it could mean that something as simple as taking a passenger suddenly requires a permit.

I don't think they're going to that extreme, but it is somewhat disconcerting that the language is so vague.

lancetkenyon
03-08-2009, 09:15 PM
Also probably depends on if they can follow you to where you are going.....I am betting NOT!

urbex
03-08-2009, 09:18 PM
Also probably depends on if they can follow you to where you are going.....I am betting NOT!

My guess if they were to actually enforce this, it wouldn't be on the hardcore trails...it would be in the washes and main access roads...

wild mustang
03-09-2009, 04:37 PM
So honestly, how does this effect the weekend wheeler who runs in a small group? Say, up to 10 rigs or so?

also how will this effect the 101, 202, 303 classes?????

urbex
03-09-2009, 04:50 PM
also how will this effect the 101, 202, 303 classes?????

From the sounds of it, someone would need a permit. I haven't yet had a chance to review the full text, but something that immediately is jumping out at me is that it doesn't appear to say who would be responsible.

In the case of the 101/202/303 classes, who would be ticketed for not having a permit? Joe for running the VJC, which would be considered the sponsor or organziner? Guys like Lance, Pierre, Mike, Huck and whoever else was leading the trail runs? Or everyone single person that was in attendance? How do they determine who is part of what group? If a solo guy happens to come up behind the group, is he suddenly part of that group?

Like I said, I haven't been able to fully review the text. These questions might be answered in the text. However, if they're not, there's a very good chance that this law wouldn't stand up in court if challenged.

JPCooler
03-09-2009, 04:59 PM
also how will this effect the 101, 202, 303 classes?????

I think we could fight that by their use of the word "organized".

:laugh2:

lancetkenyon
03-09-2009, 06:22 PM
It says to look as disorganized and confused as you can.........not hard for me to do!

owtdorz
03-16-2009, 03:41 PM
The solution is not to say it is a "Group Run". It is friends getting together and wheeling.
just be sure to have your individual permits i.e.
America the Beautiful interagency pass with Tonto upgrade sticker and Trust Land permit.
You should be good to go with all that.
At least in our state.
I found most of this info by contacting various agencies and reading about the permits.