blooddrive
01-09-2004, 05:15 AM
94369-94394
94369 From: Jeff Trujillo <jeff.trujillo@m...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:29am
Subject: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Hey Chris, wheres the horse at, I want to kick it too! LMAO Jeff
CamoXJ--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "DesertJeep" <joey@d...> wrote:
> You go Chris!! LOL kick that horse!!! :)
>
> Joey K
> 93YJ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris [mailto:my1stjeep@e...]
> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 8:25 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
>
> Mr. Onley,
>
> I nowhere implied of the items you accuse, I think you need to get
> your mind reading abilities checked. I stated it is not a good
> idea, I also stated if they are stacked and yes I did agree that
> sometimes it is necessary, maybe you should re-read a post before
> replying. Please be sure to get your facts straight before you
make
> accusations that are completely unfounded.
>
> I never stated if you have to stack rock you don't belong there,
> mistakes happen and yes you may take a line and slip off and it is
> necessary, however my statement was (again get your facts straight)
> that if you are going into a trail with the mindset that you are
> going to have to (not as an option and I believe I did say it was
ok
> to use as a last resort, again read the posts before responding)
> than you should not being do the trail.
>
> Let us look at the implications of your post which has lead to this
> discussion. Some of those facts you left of your response.
>
> Two in particular are what has started this whole thing:
> The last time you ran the trail, you were the only one to try it,
> you got so far in and decided to turn around, rock stacking had to
> take place to get out and you did get body damage. I respect the
> fact that you had to stack rocks and you got in over your head, you
> made a smart move and retreated, I did give you the benefit of the
> doubt while it was never stated, that you remove the rocks that you
> stack as to keep from the area becoming paved.
>
> You then asked for attendees on your next trip to have strong
backs,
> implies you are already assuming that you will be stacking rocks to
> get through it as you don't think you can any other way.
>
> Then another comment in a future email (this is the one that
finally
> got me to reply) was your comment about so be it if we have to pave
> them you were all for it. Then I see in the email below you are
> against it, which is it??????????
>
> If you had understood my comments (or that mind reading thing you
> think you have for implications was working) I said it was ok to
> stack rocks if necessary, if you get into a situation where there
is
> not another option, but going into a trail where you are going to
> stack rocks just to make it easy enough is wrong.
>
> I alos think you are mixing up your responses, as I never called
> anyone a Jealous Wanna Be, guess reading my post a second time
might
> have helped you understand who wrote what. Again I ask you to get
> your facts straight and if you respond to what I write, keep it
that
> way, don't bring in other posts information.
>
> Have a nice day and happy wheeling.
>
> Chris "never implied jack about being a perfect wheeler"
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>
> --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "olneyjeeps" <olneyjeeps@y...> wrote:
> > as a clarification to my previous post (made at 3am due to a
local
> > power outage)
> > I do not, did not and never will condone "paving"
> > "you started off by implying rock stacking would be going on by
> > > asking for attendees to bring a stong back, you touched of a
> nerve
> > > in alot of people here. Setting expectations to newcomers to
> our
> > > sport that going into a trail that your vehicle or the driver
> > cannot
> > > handle, but don't worry just stack rocks is not a very good way
> to
> > > start things off"
> > Just as a reminder, let's read what I said:
> > "required
> > > equipment would be:
> > > minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
> > > Front and rear lockers
> > > winch + hooks
> > > strong back (rocks are heavy)"
> >
> > If, in attempting any "challenging trail", you are not prepared /
> > able to move a rock or two (as you imply you never have), or use
a
> > winch, in the event of a missed line (as you imply you never
> have),
> > then you are bound to get in trouble (as you imply you never
> have).
> > I never said anyone did not belong there (the last trip,
> exploritory
> > in nature, included a TJ with 31's... are you saying he was not
> > entitled to come as far as he could (yes we pulled him off a rock
> he
> > misjudged 1.5 miles in) to watch/assist?). To join THIS trip, I
> did
> > not want anyone who could not "pull his own weight" in the event
> of a
> > minor mishap. You have the same right to exclude people from
trips
> > YOU lead, NOT from an area (unless of course you have full
> > title/ownership of said area).
> >
> > The rocks whick were moved (I believe the total count was 3 or 4)
> > were to get me off a rock on which I had become high centered
> caused
> > by unfortunate slip off line which countless people have done,
> > even/especially the "hard core" . If you read the trip
> > report/description, you would have read that the trip was
> exploritory
> > only with little/no expectation of completion (expected / planned
> to
> > walk trail). The trip was not made to seek "challanging terrain"
> (I
> > avoid trips (expecially with my daughter) of this sort because it
> has
> > been my experience that this is when most trail damge occours and
> I
> > try to avoid situations which would but me or others in danger),
> but
> > to enjoy the incredibly scenic views.
> > Although trail damage is inexcusable and should never be
> encouraged
> > or condoned, I do take particular offence to anyone (sierra club
> or
> > hard core 4wheeler, no matter how involved they may be) who
wishes
> to
> > claim sole access to any area. To answer your points: NASCAR is
> > privatly owned and operated and can make its own rules. Although
> > there are very strict regulations for driving on the Autobahn
> (alle
> > Deutsche Strasse),improper tire rating does not (unless a new law
> is
> > in effect since my last visit) cause the loss of license for a
> year.
> >
> > As for forbiding any type of rock stacking because of safety
> (whether
> > rocks were replaced or not), because it is part of nearly every
> > competition,this would eliminate most every competion held.
> > As your use safety to further your agenda (god forbid someone
> should
> > break a finger), vehicles should be banned if not properly fitted
> > with proper safety equipment. Much more important than the fear
> of
> > broken fingers should be that of broken heads. Note:in every
> picture
> > in my gallery I and my childeren and anyone ever allowed in my
> Jeep
> > wear 4pt harnesses under a Randy Ellis modified 6pt cage (yes
that
> is
> > a picture of me and my friends 20years ago, before people
> > seeking "more challenging trails" cut the landscape to shreds and
> > when the Four Peaks trails could be counted) .
> > The blanket statent ...."If you can't complete...without
> stacking...
> > DONT BELONG THERE" implicitly includes situations which require a
> > winch (as these situations are usually much more severe). This
> would
> > mean everyone who ever stacked or used a winch was where they did
> not
> > belong (wouldn't this include nearly 100% of severE rock
crawlers,
> as
> > I have yet to see a competiion where rocks were not stacked
and/or
> > winches were not used)?
> >
> > You say "It is imperrative theselands remain open to ALL", but it
> is
> > quite clear you wish to control who can or cannot even attempt
> > certain trails. Having a highly equipped vehicle, you (of
course)
> > would be exempt and can, in search of a "challenge" attempt
> anything
> > with or without stacking/winching. Dosen't a "challenge"
> implicitly
> > include the possibilty of the need of assistance? Isn't it
> > EVERYONE'S right to attempt a "challanging" trail?
> >
> > Bottom line IMHO:
> >
> > Pushing your limits (finding trails which provide a challenge) is
> not
> > a sin as long as you stop before exceeding your limits (jeez,
isnt
> > that what I did?). Although making / causing permanant damage is
> > wrong, attempting challenging trails is largely what our sport is
> > about and should be encouraged and ASSISTED by those who have the
> > ability/experience (not bashed and heckled as "jealous wannabees"
> in
> > an effort to keep areas their own private domain).
> >
> > As hard as it has been to see areas I once hiked and hunted
> covered
> > with houses, NO ONE (sierra club or hard core specialist) has the
> > right to tell ANYONE (who treats the enviroment with safety and
> > respect) where they can or cannot go.
> >
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <my1stjeep@e...> wrote:
> > > Everyone has an opinion. You say you want to keep it open and
we
> > > ahve repeatedly been told rock stacking, creating by passes
> etc...
> > > due cause trail closures, so why would you go into a trail
> knowing
> > > either the vehicle or the driver cannot do it without rock
> stacking?
> > >
> > > Yes sometimes it is needed to get by, but just as you talk
about
> > > preservation, they should be removed, it is a insane to even
> think
> > > paving would keep the trails open. If paved tails are what
will
> be
> > > open then your logic would serve that not matter how many want
> the
> > > harder trails open we can kiss them good bye, they will close
> them
> > > and tell us the current paved trails are enough, is that your
> > goal?
> > > Do you want these trails closed so we can run everything in 2wd?
> > >
> > > I am at a loss for words for you to be calling anyone names,
> > > especially from the person I see on every adgenda, every
> meeting,
> > at
> > > every event to keep them open. She is simply reminding you
> > (albight
> > > passionately) of some of the reasons our trails are closed and
> > since
> > > you started off by implying rock stacking would be going on by
> > > asking for attendees to bring a stong back, you touched of a
> nerve
> > > in alot of people here. Setting expectations to newcomers to
> our
> > > sport that going into a trail that your vehicle or the driver
> > cannot
> > > handle, but don't worry just stack rocks is not a very good way
> to
> > > start things off. It sets a bad example for newcomers not to
> > > mention that someone could get hurt driving a pretty stock rig
> > > through something like Sandy Beach or Anaconda or Anihilator
> or ???
> > > just cause they have the attitude they can stack their way out.
> > >
> > > I hope that you are aware of the land agencies thoughts on
this,
> > but
> > > from your message and thoughts of what they deem damage I fear
> you
> > > do not. Before you go off on someone calling them names you
> might
> > > want to be sure of the facts that the items you are talking
> about
> > > are deemed damage, tire marks are not. I also hope you remove
> the
> > > rocks when you are done, you did not say either way, but I will
> > give
> > > you the benefit of the doubt.
> > >
> > > Keep in mind you should only do what it is safe for your
vehicle
> to
> > > do, and a driver can make up for alot. However someone who
> wants
> > to
> > > run NASCAR, but cannot afford all the equipment (or in our case
> a
> > > full blown rock crawling rig) will be stopped from running the
> > race,
> > > if you drive the Autobaughn and get caught with tires that
don't
> > > match the speed rating for how fast you were going you lose
your
> > > license to drive period, it is called safety. Stacking rocks
> can
> > > lead to broken fingers, pulled muscles, unearthed scorpions or
> > other
> > > creatures that can sting or bite you, the rocks can shift while
> you
> > > go over them and could even cause you to roll over and while
> > > sometimes is it necessary as a last resort we should not go
into
> a
> > > trail with the though process that we are going to do it just
to
> > get
> > > through it. It is not safe and it is not a preserving
mentality.
> > >
> > > JMO
> > >
> > > Chris
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
-
> ---
> > -
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "olneyjeeps" <olneyjeeps@y...>
> wrote:
> > > > Thank you for showing your true colors - self ritcous pompus
> > > > controlling wannabe get to tell everyone where they can or
> cannot
> > > go
> > > > based on how you thought it would possibly change the run;
> > > > As you may have been deaf and blind at the last blm meeting.
I
> > and
> > > my
> > > > family enjoy exploring what shrinking habatat there is. They
> > > should
> > > > not be limited to the hiking "elite". Nor should they be
> limited
> > > to
> > > > the "extreeme four wheeler" My position is that these lands
> must
> > > > remain open (gonna lose some friende here) even if it has to
> be
> > > > paved.
> > > >
> > > > No One should have sole right to the beauty / solitude /
> > > challange.
> > > > This or any canyon is not for any one group. The more people
> > that
> > > > see theese trails, the more people will want to preserve it.
> The
> > > > trail is a trail, not your private playground. Not too long
> ago
> > > your
> > > > house was bare desart, get rid of the stacking there so you
> may
> > > have
> > > > your own private playground.
> > > > AlthoughI do not advocate wheel spinning, rockstatking, or
> > > winching
> > > > thry do have their place in rare occasions, It is imperrative
> > > these
> > > > lands remain open to ALL (forgive me for yelling) and not
just
> > the
> > > > owners of fab shops creating vehicles by whose standards
leave
> > 90%
> > > of
> > > > the club "not worthy" / wannabees (how many of you that dont'
> > have
> > > > 60's front and rear,4link airlockers, 44's etc realized you
> were
> > > just
> > > > labeled a wanabe, and therefore, by Ms. McCullen's judgement
> > owing
> > > > gratitude for being allowed to travel the trails she and her
> sons
> > > no
> > > > longer consider "challanging"? Maybe we should rent heavy
> > > equipment
> > > > and go in and tear up the trails so that no one (except
Sandy
> > and
> > > > her sons) can enjoy.
> > > >
> > > > In response to your comment referring to my comment
as "sounds
> > > like
> > > > like the green eye of
> > > > > jealousy to me." Give me a break. There is not a speck
> > > > (possesions, ability or otherwise) that you and your world
> > > traveled
> > > > multi lingual college educated kids and their "toys" have
that
> I
> > > > would waste on starting a fire. My girls love spending time
> with
> > > me
> > > > exploring in the Jeeps. I need nothing more to garner their
> full
> > > > love and devotion.
> > > >
> > > > Public land is public land. Just as I fight to keep the
> Sierra
> > > Club
> > > > from blocking off land for a limited few, I resent Sandy and
> > > others
> > > > for claiming that they have exclusive right to any area.
> > > >
> > > > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee McCullen"
> <mccullen@c...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > OK........... my apologies in the use of "YOU". It was
> meant
> > > to be
> > > > > directed at anyone that is into a trail they don't
> belong.....
> > > or
> > > > those that
> > > > > seem to believe PAVING is simply a way to allow them to go
> > where
> > > > they
> > > > > please! Yes, caps indicate yelling or very strong
> suggestion
> > > and
> > > > that is
> > > > > exactly what I meant. I agree I was not there and I do
> > > appreciate
> > > > the fact
> > > > > he did turn around, but he also slams the extreme wheeler
> and
> > > > indicated he
> > > > > had as much right on those trails as anyone else. NO he
> does
> > > > not.........
> > > > > not if it means the extreme wheeler has to lose any/all
> > > challenge
> > > > they have
> > > > > because someone wants to "do what the big guys do". I'm so
> > > tired
> > > > of this
> > > > > attitude and mentality. Just because someone builds a
> vehicle
> > > > capable of
> > > > > doing almost anything does not make them "the big guy",
> > > or "GOD",
> > > > or anyone
> > > > > any different than you, I or the first time 4-wheeler.
> > > > >
> > > > > There were comments comparing the "damage" the buggies or
> rock
> > > > crawlers do
> > > > > ............ like leaving "semi-permanent marks" on the
> rocks.
> > > Or
> > > > climbing
> > > > > "near vertical obstacles"........ sounds like like the
> green
> > > eye of
> > > > > jealousy to me. This is not damage........ paving or
> making
> > by-
> > > > passes IS
> > > > > damage and abuse and these actions are what will close ALL
> our
> > > > trails.
> > > > > ......
> > > > >
> > > > > [As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the
> semi
> > > > > > >>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to
> > > climb
> > > > near
> > > > > > >>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or
anyone's
> > > right
> > > > to
> > > > > > >>>> say where someone does or does not belong]
> > > > >
> > > > > This comes across to me as "I'll do as I
> please"........ "it's
> > > my
> > > > right to
> > > > > stack rocks as long as the day is long", "I don't do any
> more
> > > > damage than
> > > > > the "rock scratchers" yada yada yada!! YES, it is MY RIGHT
> if
> > > > these kinds
> > > > > of actions lose the only challenge I have within my sport!
> > YES,
> > > I
> > > > AM
> > > > > YELLING Chris............... there are way too many
> > > recreationists
> > > > out
> > > > > there that simply do NOT get the picture. Too many ATV's
> tear
> > > > across
> > > > > country, the 4-wheelers enter trails they are not capable
of
> > > doing,
> > > > many
> > > > > motorcycles go way to fast............... and we can't
seem
> to
> > > > understand
> > > > > "WHY" we're losing everything. The agencies simply do not
> want
> > > to
> > > > deal with
> > > > > the headaches of the recreationists not being
> > > responsible. .....
> > > > Before
> > > > > you go off again, I'm not saying or claiming this Steve
> > was "not"
> > > > > responsible but his attitude is certainly in the grey
area...
> > > > > There are LARGE groups of agency planners that feel
> the "graded
> > > > gravel roads
> > > > > should be enough for us". There are also LARGE numbers of
> new
> > > > personnel
> > > > > joining the land management agencies and believe
> > > me.............,
> > > > for the
> > > > > most part, they are GREEN!!! Everyone seems to be
> > into "saving"
> > > > something.
> > > > > Our battles will not be getting easier and abuse such as
> rock
> > > > paving and
> > > > > by-passes are the first issues to be held over us. We lost
> > > > Jawbreaker
> > > > > because of "rock paving"........ had vehicles going
> > > > through "DErocked" the
> > > > > obstacle after getting through the Tucson BLM wouldn't have
> had
> > > > anything to
> > > > > present to the courts to show "abuse". Game & Fish are no
> > > better.
> > > > If it's
> > > > > not wildlife habitat destruction, it's "messing up the
> > > watershed"
> > > > of the
> > > > > area or rock stacking is showing to alter the flow because
> it
> > > tends
> > > > to hold
> > > > > silt or gravel instead of allowing it to wash down stream
> etc
> > etc
> > > > > etc............. there's desert tortoise, or a lizard, or
> > > beetle
> > > > or a WEED.
> > > > > They'll use anything they can to shut out OHV
> > > recreation.........
> > > > WHY do we
> > > > > insist on hurting ourselves!!!?
> > > > >
> > > > > I am rambling and will continue to do so until ALL of my
> fellow
> > > 4-
> > > > wheelers
> > > > > finally understand that we each have our own level of
> wheeling
> > > and
> > > > to mess
> > > > > us someone elses challenge just to prove a point, will shut
> us
> > > all
> > > > down.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sandee
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 5:40 PM
> > > > > > To: Sandee McCullen
> > > > > > Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I quote you:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "If you cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with
> > rocks
> > > to
> > > > > > enable you to get through or across an obstacle........
> YOU
> > > DON'T
> > > > > > BELONG THERE!!"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The use of "you" and the caps (internet yelling) make it
> look
> > > > like it
> > > > > > was directed to him. Sorry if I misinterpreted this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your points are all correct, but it is incorrect to use
> them
> > > > against
> > > > > > Steve in this case, since we were not there and have no
> idea
> > > in
> > > > what
> > > > > > condition he left the trail.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If we are going to preach, we should do it in a general
> > > manner.
> > > > It is
> > > > > > unfair to use someone else's post about a run to further
> our
> > > > ideas,
> > > > > > even if they are good ideas. To some, it will seem like
we
> > are
> > > > bashing
> > > > > > the post.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I read Steve's post and thought it was very responsible
> that
> > > they
> > > > did
> > > > > > what they did. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that
> they
> > > > unstacked
> > > > > > the rock. Remember, innocent until proven guilty works in
> may
> > > ways
> > > > > > besides in a court of law, especially with friends and
> fellow
> > > > wheelers.
> > > > > > It was pointed out to me in an email from another member
> that
> > > his
> > > > email
> > > > > > also indicated that they might stack rocks if they go
> back.
> > > > Again, I
> > > > > > give him the benefit of the doubt that they will unstack
> them
> > > as
> > > > well.
> > > > > > If they do not, then I will lose and my trust of him will
> be
> > > lost.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Remember (and this is my final point since I don't want
> this
> > > to
> > > > grow in
> > > > > > to more than it has), if we were to never wheel on trails
> > that
> > > > there is
> > > > > > the potential that we will have to stack rocks, most of
us
> > > would
> > > > never
> > > > > > leave the graded dirt road. That would be a shame.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Chris
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 03:45 PM, Sandee
> McCullen
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Chris, I don't think anyone "jumped down anyones
> > > > throat".........
> > > > > > > simply
> > > > > > > stated "rock paving" is ruining our extreme trails and
> is
> > > > hurting us
> > > > > > > all.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have NO PROBLEM with turning around when finding a
> trail
> > > is
> > > > too
> > > > > > > tough but
> > > > > > > you and I both KNOW that there are waaaaaay too many
> > > vehicles
> > > > going
> > > > > > > into
> > > > > > > trails they KNOW they are not equipped to do without
> > rocking
> > > or
> > > > making
> > > > > > > by-passes! I hear over and over again....... "no
> problem,
> > > > we'll 'pull
> > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > through'". WHY???? Isn't actually "driving to the
> > > individual
> > > > > > > challenge"
> > > > > > > what we're suppose to be about?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I didn't pretend to "be there" and I didn't accuse
> anyone of
> > > > > > > "semi-permanent" damage. Nor did I accuse the rock
> > crawlers
> > > of
> > > > being
> > > > > > > "GODS". My message was to EVERYONE that are doing
> trails
> > > above
> > > > their
> > > > > > > ability, rock paving or making by-passes to get through
> to
> > > stay
> > > > within
> > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > own challenge limitations. These actions WILL affect
> ALL
> > of
> > > us
> > > > in the
> > > > > > > near
> > > > > > > future and it won't be what anyone wants to hear. This
> > kind
> > > of
> > > > abuse
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > closing trails across the country. The agencies are
> having
> > > a
> > > > tough
> > > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > time understanding the "challenge" of extreme 4-
> wheeling,
> > > but
> > > > when all
> > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > see is the rock paving, by-passes, oil spills, and
> > > vegetation
> > > > winched
> > > > > > > out of
> > > > > > > the ground they simply declare "abuse and resource
> damage"
> > > and
> > > > close
> > > > > > > everything. It's going to take ALL of us to truly show
> > > > RESPONSIBLE
> > > > > > > use of
> > > > > > > our recreation trails system................
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The responses from Todd and myself simply stated "to
> stay
> > on
> > > > trails
> > > > > > > within
> > > > > > > individual vehicle and/or driver
> > capabilities".............
> > > or
> > > > > > > "UNSTACK if
> > > > > > > the need for rocks is called for".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sandee
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > >> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> > > > > > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 3:28 PM
> > > > > > >> To: Sandee McCullen
> > > > > > >> Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking
> rocks
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Sandy and Todd, um, did either of you read his run
> > > description?
> > > > > > >> They turned around after deciding they were beyond
> their
> > > > capabilities.
> > > > > > >> The rock stacking was done to get back out. No
lectures
> > > should
> > > > be
> > > > > > >> given
> > > > > > >> because they had no idea what the trail ahead was like.
> > > > > > >> In my opinion, they did the sensible thing. They gave
> it a
> > > try
> > > > (aren't
> > > > > > >> we all allowed to do this, it being public land and
> all?)
> > > and
> > > > called
> > > > > > >> it
> > > > > > >> quits when it became apparent that it was beyond their
> > > > capabilities.
> > > > > > >> So
> > > > > > >> a few rocks were stacked to get them back out. At
least
> > > they
> > > > didn't
> > > > > > >> just continue on and stack the entire trail as others
> > > probably
> > > > would
> > > > > > >> have. Besides, he never said he didn't unstack them.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Everyone, please don't be so quick to jump down the
> other
> > > > guys/girls
> > > > > > >> throat, ESPECIALLY if you weren't there or do not know
> all
> > > the
> > > > facts.
> > > > > > >> When you make assumptions without facts, you just make
> > > > yourself look
> > > > > > >> bad and create ill will in the group. We have enough
> > > bickering
> > > > here
> > > > > > >> lately. Lets work to save our trails, not bicker about
> who
> > > can
> > > > play
> > > > > > >> where.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Just my $.02
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Chris
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 02:57 PM, Sandee
> > McCullen
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing
> > trails
> > > > via ROCK
> > > > > > >>> PAVING
> > > > > > >>> needs to stop.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line
> is
> > > > simply: If
> > > > > > >>> you
> > > > > > >>> cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with
rocks
> to
> > > > enable you
> > > > > > >>> to get
> > > > > > >>> through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T
> BELONG
> > > > THERE!! The
> > > > > > >>> "semi
> > > > > > >>> permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do
> > > > with "ruining a good
> > > > > > >>> trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of
> paving
> > is
> > > > what is
> > > > > > >>> "ruining
> > > > > > >>> the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now
> and
> > > then
> > > > to
> > > > > > >>> "help"
> > > > > > >>> is
> > > > > > >>> done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy
> would
> > > > have you
> > > > > > >>> REMOVE
> > > > > > >>> the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of
> the
> > > > obstacle.
> > > > > > >>> There
> > > > > > >>> are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge"
for
> > > every
> > > > level of
> > > > > > >>> 4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the
extreme
> > > > driver/vehicle
> > > > > > >>> is
> > > > > > >>> what is causing the problems and is what is in
> discussion
> > > > from your
> > > > > > >>> message.
> > > > > > >>> This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's
ALL
> of
> > > > us.........
> > > > > > >>> respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for
> all.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock
> > > crawling
> > > > with
> > > > > > >>> no,
> > > > > > >>> or
> > > > > > >>> very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS!
> All
> > > > they're
> > > > > > >>> asking is
> > > > > > >>> the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do
> > > > whatever they
> > > > > > >>> wish
> > > > > > >>> STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are
> not
> > > > happy about
> > > > > > >>> "rock
> > > > > > >>> paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the
> > watershed
> > > or
> > > > natural
> > > > > > >>> layout
> > > > > > >>> of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother
Nature
> > > does a
> > > > good
> > > > > > >>> job
> > > > > > >>> of
> > > > > > >>> keeping trails natural but some of the
stacking/paving
> > > > happening
> > > > > > >>> today
> > > > > > >>> is
> > > > > > >>> well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
> > > > > > >>> [FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks
in
> > the
> > > > bottom of
> > > > > > >>> a
> > > > > > >>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand
> > cubic
> > > > feet per
> > > > > > >>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another
good
> > > > trail."] This
> > > > > > >>>> may
> > > > > > >>> not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good
> > > trail"
> > > > but it
> > > > > > >>> is
> > > > > > >>> if
> > > > > > >>> YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother
> > > Nature
> > > > may
> > > > > > >>> make a
> > > > > > >>> trail easier or harder but that should be left to
> nature
> > > NOT
> > > > YOU or
> > > > > > >>> other
> > > > > > >>> want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have
> been
> > > > wheel'n
> > > > > > >>> Arizona and
> > > > > > >>> California since BEFORE the early 70's. For whatever
> > > that's
> > > > > > >>> worth??????
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Again, if you cannot traverse a trail or obstacle
with
> > > your
> > > > vehicle,
> > > > > > >>> winch,
> > > > > > >>> tires and/or ability and have to rock PAVE.......
You
> > > don't
> > > > belong
> > > > > > >>> there.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Sandee
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > >>>> From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
> > > > > > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:27 PM
> > > > > > >>>> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > >>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking
rocks
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it
> > appears
> > > > you would
> > > > > > >>>> like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
> > > > > > >>>> As it appears you coulden't read the first time from
> > your
> > > > throne:
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> 1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a
reasonable /
> > > > responsible
> > > > > > >>>> driver) because I had determined that (at that time)
> I
> > > was
> > > > not
> > > > > > >>>> properly equiped and did not have the resources if I
> > were
> > > to
> > > > get
> > > > > > >>>> into
> > > > > > >>>> trouble.
> > > > > > >>>> 2) I did recommend / advise against attempting
> without
> > > lots
> > > > of
> > > > > > >>>> clearance.
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
> > > > > > >>>> "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
> > > > > > >>>> As long as it is not causing long term damage (such
> as
> > > the
> > > > semi
> > > > > > >>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to
> > > climb
> > > > near
> > > > > > >>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or
anyone's
> > > right
> > > > to
> > > > > > >>>> say where someone does or does not belong (I don't
> > recall
> > > > seeing you
> > > > > > >>>> at the last BLM meeting either)
> > > > > > >>>> FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in
> the
> > > > bottom of a
> > > > > > >>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand
> > cubic
> > > > feet per
> > > > > > >>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another
good
> > > trail."
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it,
> you
> > do
> > > > not belong
> > > > > > >>>> on that trail."
> > > > > > >>>> I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted
(which
> > I'm
> > > > sure you
> > > > > > >>>> always use before spinning all four gouging and
> spiting
> > > rock
> > > > and
> > > > > > >>>> admitting lack of ability to move unassisted).
Let's
> > > compare
> > > > > > >>>> possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash
> vs.
> > > tire
> > > > scars on
> > > > > > >>>> vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng
> attended
> > > > several
> > > > > > >>>> competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never
stacked
> a
> > > rock
> > > > or two
> > > > > > >>>> for you, right?
> > > > > > >>>> By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling /
hiking
> in
> > > > this area
> > > > > > >>>> since the early 70's; you?
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> See you at the next BLM meeting
> > > > > > >>>> Steve
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
> > > > > > >>>>> This trail has been run by experienced drivers and
> rigs
> > > > equipped to
> > > > > > >>>> do it,
> > > > > > >>>>> without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to
> stack
> > > > rocks 20
> > > > > > >>>> yards into
> > > > > > >>>>> it, you do not belong on that trail.
> > > > > > >>>>> There are plenty of trails out there for everyones
> > level.
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Todd
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> Earlier this year, after talking with many people
> and
> > > > surveying
> > > > > > >>>>> from
> > > > > > >>>>>> the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
> > > > > > >>>>>> The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is
> > really
> > > > really
> > > > > > >>>>> really
> > > > > > >>>>>> nasty. Because the other members of the group did
> not
> > > > want to go
> > > > > > >>>> further,
> > > > > > >>>>>> I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only
> the
> > > first
> > > > 20-30
> > > > > > >>>> yards; it
> > > > > > >>>>>> took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of
> > > stacking+
> > > > body
> > > > > > >>>> damage to
> > > > > > >>>>>> get back out.
> > > > > > >>>>>> I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint
> > > hint)
> > > > but
> > > > > > >>>>> required
> > > > > > >>>>>> equipment would be:
> > > > > > >>>>>> minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage
> probable)
> > > > > > >>>>>> Front and rear lockers
> > > > > > >>>>>> winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> Call if interested
> > > > > > >>>>>> Steve Olney
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > >
> __________________________________________________ _______________
> > > > > > >>>>> From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite
> > > music
> > > > is always
> > > > > > >>>> playing
> > > > > > >>>>> on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month
FREE!
> > > > > > >>>>> http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > > > >>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > > > >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
94370 From: <NVRSTUKXJ@a...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:51am
Subject: Re: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
"now T.J. will have all the rocks at his house."
PARTY TIME!!!!!!
94371 From: <NVRSTUKXJ@a...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:56am
Subject: Re: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
I've an idea....at the BBQ next month, someone bring a dead horse and Chris and onley can have a showdown.....last man kicking the dead horse wins.....and as an added bonus....meat for the barby...... :-)
94372 From: olneyjeeps <olneyjeeps@y...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:00am
Subject: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
(abridged version of message sent to "Chris"
Eventhough it has been printed several dozen times in the last couple
of days (plus on my member page, plus on every trip I have
attended/lead and not that it excentuates anyones ability to
read/comprehend what is written and written and written), I'll say it
really s l o w
Stve
O
L
N
E
Y
(as in Olney... Jeeps)
(oh god... its....a. PUN!!! (pun)n. A play on words, sometimes on
different senses of the same word and sometimes on the similar sense
or sound of differents. Also called "paronamasia."
Steve Olney (my 1st,2nd,16th,27th,35th and38th Jeep)
Get the difibulator and set at 800joules.... CLEAR!!!
Every competitor I have seen, has had a spotter who coule (and did)
move/ stack rocks
To require members of a trip to be prepared is not (although it may
be for someone with their 1st Jeep) synonomous with planning to use
such equipment (I have had an 8000lb winch for 7 years now and have
only used it once (to pull a friends Toyota back on the trail))
The requirement of a strong back (along with winch,straps, jack,
lockers, preferably 35s or larger, etc) was ment primarily to
excentuate the difficulty of the trail.
anyone gonna call it?
Time of death 09:35
would some glue help rocks stick together?
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <my1stjeep@e...> wrote:
> Mr. Onley,
>
> I nowhere implied of the items you accuse, I think you need to get
> your mind reading abilities checked. I stated it is not a good
> idea, I also stated if they are stacked and yes I did agree that
> sometimes it is necessary, maybe you should re-read a post before
> replying. Please be sure to get your facts straight before you
make
> accusations that are completely unfounded.
>
> I never stated if you have to stack rock you don't belong there,
> mistakes happen and yes you may take a line and slip off and it is
> necessary, however my statement was (again get your facts straight)
> that if you are going into a trail with the mindset that you are
> going to have to (not as an option and I believe I did say it was
ok
> to use as a last resort, again read the posts before responding)
> than you should not being do the trail.
>
> Let us look at the implications of your post which has lead to this
> discussion. Some of those facts you left of your response.
>
> Two in particular are what has started this whole thing:
> The last time you ran the trail, you were the only one to try it,
> you got so far in and decided to turn around, rock stacking had to
> take place to get out and you did get body damage. I respect the
> fact that you had to stack rocks and you got in over your head, you
> made a smart move and retreated, I did give you the benefit of the
> doubt while it was never stated, that you remove the rocks that you
> stack as to keep from the area becoming paved.
>
> You then asked for attendees on your next trip to have strong
backs,
> implies you are already assuming that you will be stacking rocks to
> get through it as you don't think you can any other way.
>
> Then another comment in a future email (this is the one that
finally
> got me to reply) was your comment about so be it if we have to pave
> them you were all for it. Then I see in the email below you are
> against it, which is it??????????
>
> If you had understood my comments (or that mind reading thing you
> think you have for implications was working) I said it was ok to
> stack rocks if necessary, if you get into a situation where there
is
> not another option, but going into a trail where you are going to
> stack rocks just to make it easy enough is wrong.
>
> I alos think you are mixing up your responses, as I never called
> anyone a Jealous Wanna Be, guess reading my post a second time
might
> have helped you understand who wrote what. Again I ask you to get
> your facts straight and if you respond to what I write, keep it
that
> way, don't bring in other posts information.
>
> Have a nice day and happy wheeling.
>
> Chris "never implied jack about being a perfect wheeler"
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>
> --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "olneyjeeps" <olneyjeeps@y...> wrote:
> > as a clarification to my previous post (made at 3am due to a
local
> > power outage)
> > I do not, did not and never will condone "paving"
> > "you started off by implying rock stacking would be going on by
> > > asking for attendees to bring a stong back, you touched of a
> nerve
> > > in alot of people here. Setting expectations to newcomers to
> our
> > > sport that going into a trail that your vehicle or the driver
> > cannot
> > > handle, but don't worry just stack rocks is not a very good way
> to
> > > start things off"
> > Just as a reminder, let's read what I said:
> > "required
> > > equipment would be:
> > > minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
> > > Front and rear lockers
> > > winch + hooks
> > > strong back (rocks are heavy)"
> >
> > If, in attempting any "challenging trail", you are not prepared /
> > able to move a rock or two (as you imply you never have), or use
a
> > winch, in the event of a missed line (as you imply you never
> have),
> > then you are bound to get in trouble (as you imply you never
> have).
> > I never said anyone did not belong there (the last trip,
> exploritory
> > in nature, included a TJ with 31's... are you saying he was not
> > entitled to come as far as he could (yes we pulled him off a rock
> he
> > misjudged 1.5 miles in) to watch/assist?). To join THIS trip, I
> did
> > not want anyone who could not "pull his own weight" in the event
> of a
> > minor mishap. You have the same right to exclude people from
trips
> > YOU lead, NOT from an area (unless of course you have full
> > title/ownership of said area).
> >
> > The rocks whick were moved (I believe the total count was 3 or 4)
> > were to get me off a rock on which I had become high centered
> caused
> > by unfortunate slip off line which countless people have done,
> > even/especially the "hard core" . If you read the trip
> > report/description, you would have read that the trip was
> exploritory
> > only with little/no expectation of completion (expected / planned
> to
> > walk trail). The trip was not made to seek "challanging terrain"
> (I
> > avoid trips (expecially with my daughter) of this sort because it
> has
> > been my experience that this is when most trail damge occours and
> I
> > try to avoid situations which would but me or others in danger),
> but
> > to enjoy the incredibly scenic views.
> > Although trail damage is inexcusable and should never be
> encouraged
> > or condoned, I do take particular offence to anyone (sierra club
> or
> > hard core 4wheeler, no matter how involved they may be) who
wishes
> to
> > claim sole access to any area. To answer your points: NASCAR is
> > privatly owned and operated and can make its own rules. Although
> > there are very strict regulations for driving on the Autobahn
> (alle
> > Deutsche Strasse),improper tire rating does not (unless a new law
> is
> > in effect since my last visit) cause the loss of license for a
> year.
> >
> > As for forbiding any type of rock stacking because of safety
> (whether
> > rocks were replaced or not), because it is part of nearly every
> > competition,this would eliminate most every competion held.
> > As your use safety to further your agenda (god forbid someone
> should
> > break a finger), vehicles should be banned if not properly fitted
> > with proper safety equipment. Much more important than the fear
> of
> > broken fingers should be that of broken heads. Note:in every
> picture
> > in my gallery I and my childeren and anyone ever allowed in my
> Jeep
> > wear 4pt harnesses under a Randy Ellis modified 6pt cage (yes
that
> is
> > a picture of me and my friends 20years ago, before people
> > seeking "more challenging trails" cut the landscape to shreds and
> > when the Four Peaks trails could be counted) .
> > The blanket statent ...."If you can't complete...without
> stacking...
> > DONT BELONG THERE" implicitly includes situations which require a
> > winch (as these situations are usually much more severe). This
> would
> > mean everyone who ever stacked or used a winch was where they did
> not
> > belong (wouldn't this include nearly 100% of severE rock
crawlers,
> as
> > I have yet to see a competiion where rocks were not stacked
and/or
> > winches were not used)?
> >
> > You say "It is imperrative theselands remain open to ALL", but it
> is
> > quite clear you wish to control who can or cannot even attempt
> > certain trails. Having a highly equipped vehicle, you (of
course)
> > would be exempt and can, in search of a "challenge" attempt
> anything
> > with or without stacking/winching. Dosen't a "challenge"
> implicitly
> > include the possibilty of the need of assistance? Isn't it
> > EVERYONE'S right to attempt a "challanging" trail?
> >
> > Bottom line IMHO:
> >
> > Pushing your limits (finding trails which provide a challenge) is
> not
> > a sin as long as you stop before exceeding your limits (jeez,
isnt
> > that what I did?). Although making / causing permanant damage is
> > wrong, attempting challenging trails is largely what our sport is
> > about and should be encouraged and ASSISTED by those who have the
> > ability/experience (not bashed and heckled as "jealous wannabees"
> in
> > an effort to keep areas their own private domain).
> >
> > As hard as it has been to see areas I once hiked and hunted
> covered
> > with houses, NO ONE (sierra club or hard core specialist) has the
> > right to tell ANYONE (who treats the enviroment with safety and
> > respect) where they can or cannot go.
> >
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <my1stjeep@e...> wrote:
> > > Everyone has an opinion. You say you want to keep it open and
we
> > > ahve repeatedly been told rock stacking, creating by passes
> etc...
> > > due cause trail closures, so why would you go into a trail
> knowing
> > > either the vehicle or the driver cannot do it without rock
> stacking?
> > >
> > > Yes sometimes it is needed to get by, but just as you talk
about
> > > preservation, they should be removed, it is a insane to even
> think
> > > paving would keep the trails open. If paved tails are what
will
> be
> > > open then your logic would serve that not matter how many want
> the
> > > harder trails open we can kiss them good bye, they will close
> them
> > > and tell us the current paved trails are enough, is that your
> > goal?
> > > Do you want these trails closed so we can run everything in 2wd?
> > >
> > > I am at a loss for words for you to be calling anyone names,
> > > especially from the person I see on every adgenda, every
> meeting,
> > at
> > > every event to keep them open. She is simply reminding you
> > (albight
> > > passionately) of some of the reasons our trails are closed and
> > since
> > > you started off by implying rock stacking would be going on by
> > > asking for attendees to bring a stong back, you touched of a
> nerve
> > > in alot of people here. Setting expectations to newcomers to
> our
> > > sport that going into a trail that your vehicle or the driver
> > cannot
> > > handle, but don't worry just stack rocks is not a very good way
> to
> > > start things off. It sets a bad example for newcomers not to
> > > mention that someone could get hurt driving a pretty stock rig
> > > through something like Sandy Beach or Anaconda or Anihilator
> or ???
> > > just cause they have the attitude they can stack their way out.
> > >
> > > I hope that you are aware of the land agencies thoughts on
this,
> > but
> > > from your message and thoughts of what they deem damage I fear
> you
> > > do not. Before you go off on someone calling them names you
> might
> > > want to be sure of the facts that the items you are talking
> about
> > > are deemed damage, tire marks are not. I also hope you remove
> the
> > > rocks when you are done, you did not say either way, but I will
> > give
> > > you the benefit of the doubt.
> > >
> > > Keep in mind you should only do what it is safe for your
vehicle
> to
> > > do, and a driver can make up for alot. However someone who
> wants
> > to
> > > run NASCAR, but cannot afford all the equipment (or in our case
> a
> > > full blown rock crawling rig) will be stopped from running the
> > race,
> > > if you drive the Autobaughn and get caught with tires that
don't
> > > match the speed rating for how fast you were going you lose
your
> > > license to drive period, it is called safety. Stacking rocks
> can
> > > lead to broken fingers, pulled muscles, unearthed scorpions or
> > other
> > > creatures that can sting or bite you, the rocks can shift while
> you
> > > go over them and could even cause you to roll over and while
> > > sometimes is it necessary as a last resort we should not go
into
> a
> > > trail with the though process that we are going to do it just
to
> > get
> > > through it. It is not safe and it is not a preserving
mentality.
> > >
> > > JMO
> > >
> > > Chris
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
-
> ---
> > -
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "olneyjeeps" <olneyjeeps@y...>
> wrote:
> > > > Thank you for showing your true colors - self ritcous pompus
> > > > controlling wannabe get to tell everyone where they can or
> cannot
> > > go
> > > > based on how you thought it would possibly change the run;
> > > > As you may have been deaf and blind at the last blm meeting.
I
> > and
> > > my
> > > > family enjoy exploring what shrinking habatat there is. They
> > > should
> > > > not be limited to the hiking "elite". Nor should they be
> limited
> > > to
> > > > the "extreeme four wheeler" My position is that these lands
> must
> > > > remain open (gonna lose some friende here) even if it has to
> be
> > > > paved.
> > > >
> > > > No One should have sole right to the beauty / solitude /
> > > challange.
> > > > This or any canyon is not for any one group. The more people
> > that
> > > > see theese trails, the more people will want to preserve it.
> The
> > > > trail is a trail, not your private playground. Not too long
> ago
> > > your
> > > > house was bare desart, get rid of the stacking there so you
> may
> > > have
> > > > your own private playground.
> > > > AlthoughI do not advocate wheel spinning, rockstatking, or
> > > winching
> > > > thry do have their place in rare occasions, It is imperrative
> > > these
> > > > lands remain open to ALL (forgive me for yelling) and not
just
> > the
> > > > owners of fab shops creating vehicles by whose standards
leave
> > 90%
> > > of
> > > > the club "not worthy" / wannabees (how many of you that dont'
> > have
> > > > 60's front and rear,4link airlockers, 44's etc realized you
> were
> > > just
> > > > labeled a wanabe, and therefore, by Ms. McCullen's judgement
> > owing
> > > > gratitude for being allowed to travel the trails she and her
> sons
> > > no
> > > > longer consider "challanging"? Maybe we should rent heavy
> > > equipment
> > > > and go in and tear up the trails so that no one (except
Sandy
> > and
> > > > her sons) can enjoy.
> > > >
> > > > In response to your comment referring to my comment
as "sounds
> > > like
> > > > like the green eye of
> > > > > jealousy to me." Give me a break. There is not a speck
> > > > (possesions, ability or otherwise) that you and your world
> > > traveled
> > > > multi lingual college educated kids and their "toys" have
that
> I
> > > > would waste on starting a fire. My girls love spending time
> with
> > > me
> > > > exploring in the Jeeps. I need nothing more to garner their
> full
> > > > love and devotion.
> > > >
> > > > Public land is public land. Just as I fight to keep the
> Sierra
> > > Club
> > > > from blocking off land for a limited few, I resent Sandy and
> > > others
> > > > for claiming that they have exclusive right to any area.
> > > >
> > > > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee McCullen"
> <mccullen@c...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > OK........... my apologies in the use of "YOU". It was
> meant
> > > to be
> > > > > directed at anyone that is into a trail they don't
> belong.....
> > > or
> > > > those that
> > > > > seem to believe PAVING is simply a way to allow them to go
> > where
> > > > they
> > > > > please! Yes, caps indicate yelling or very strong
> suggestion
> > > and
> > > > that is
> > > > > exactly what I meant. I agree I was not there and I do
> > > appreciate
> > > > the fact
> > > > > he did turn around, but he also slams the extreme wheeler
> and
> > > > indicated he
> > > > > had as much right on those trails as anyone else. NO he
> does
> > > > not.........
> > > > > not if it means the extreme wheeler has to lose any/all
> > > challenge
> > > > they have
> > > > > because someone wants to "do what the big guys do". I'm so
> > > tired
> > > > of this
> > > > > attitude and mentality. Just because someone builds a
> vehicle
> > > > capable of
> > > > > doing almost anything does not make them "the big guy",
> > > or "GOD",
> > > > or anyone
> > > > > any different than you, I or the first time 4-wheeler.
> > > > >
> > > > > There were comments comparing the "damage" the buggies or
> rock
> > > > crawlers do
> > > > > ............ like leaving "semi-permanent marks" on the
> rocks.
> > > Or
> > > > climbing
> > > > > "near vertical obstacles"........ sounds like like the
> green
> > > eye of
> > > > > jealousy to me. This is not damage........ paving or
> making
> > by-
> > > > passes IS
> > > > > damage and abuse and these actions are what will close ALL
> our
> > > > trails.
> > > > > ......
> > > > >
> > > > > [As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the
> semi
> > > > > > >>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to
> > > climb
> > > > near
> > > > > > >>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or
anyone's
> > > right
> > > > to
> > > > > > >>>> say where someone does or does not belong]
> > > > >
> > > > > This comes across to me as "I'll do as I
> please"........ "it's
> > > my
> > > > right to
> > > > > stack rocks as long as the day is long", "I don't do any
> more
> > > > damage than
> > > > > the "rock scratchers" yada yada yada!! YES, it is MY RIGHT
> if
> > > > these kinds
> > > > > of actions lose the only challenge I have within my sport!
> > YES,
> > > I
> > > > AM
> > > > > YELLING Chris............... there are way too many
> > > recreationists
> > > > out
> > > > > there that simply do NOT get the picture. Too many ATV's
> tear
> > > > across
> > > > > country, the 4-wheelers enter trails they are not capable
of
> > > doing,
> > > > many
> > > > > motorcycles go way to fast............... and we can't
seem
> to
> > > > understand
> > > > > "WHY" we're losing everything. The agencies simply do not
> want
> > > to
> > > > deal with
> > > > > the headaches of the recreationists not being
> > > responsible. .....
> > > > Before
> > > > > you go off again, I'm not saying or claiming this Steve
> > was "not"
> > > > > responsible but his attitude is certainly in the grey
area...
> > > > > There are LARGE groups of agency planners that feel
> the "graded
> > > > gravel roads
> > > > > should be enough for us". There are also LARGE numbers of
> new
> > > > personnel
> > > > > joining the land management agencies and believe
> > > me.............,
> > > > for the
> > > > > most part, they are GREEN!!! Everyone seems to be
> > into "saving"
> > > > something.
> > > > > Our battles will not be getting easier and abuse such as
> rock
> > > > paving and
> > > > > by-passes are the first issues to be held over us. We lost
> > > > Jawbreaker
> > > > > because of "rock paving"........ had vehicles going
> > > > through "DErocked" the
> > > > > obstacle after getting through the Tucson BLM wouldn't have
> had
> > > > anything to
> > > > > present to the courts to show "abuse". Game & Fish are no
> > > better.
> > > > If it's
> > > > > not wildlife habitat destruction, it's "messing up the
> > > watershed"
> > > > of the
> > > > > area or rock stacking is showing to alter the flow because
> it
> > > tends
> > > > to hold
> > > > > silt or gravel instead of allowing it to wash down stream
> etc
> > etc
> > > > > etc............. there's desert tortoise, or a lizard, or
> > > beetle
> > > > or a WEED.
> > > > > They'll use anything they can to shut out OHV
> > > recreation.........
> > > > WHY do we
> > > > > insist on hurting ourselves!!!?
> > > > >
> > > > > I am rambling and will continue to do so until ALL of my
> fellow
> > > 4-
> > > > wheelers
> > > > > finally understand that we each have our own level of
> wheeling
> > > and
> > > > to mess
> > > > > us someone elses challenge just to prove a point, will shut
> us
> > > all
> > > > down.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sandee
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 5:40 PM
> > > > > > To: Sandee McCullen
> > > > > > Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I quote you:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "If you cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with
> > rocks
> > > to
> > > > > > enable you to get through or across an obstacle........
> YOU
> > > DON'T
> > > > > > BELONG THERE!!"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The use of "you" and the caps (internet yelling) make it
> look
> > > > like it
> > > > > > was directed to him. Sorry if I misinterpreted this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your points are all correct, but it is incorrect to use
> them
> > > > against
> > > > > > Steve in this case, since we were not there and have no
> idea
> > > in
> > > > what
> > > > > > condition he left the trail.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If we are going to preach, we should do it in a general
> > > manner.
> > > > It is
> > > > > > unfair to use someone else's post about a run to further
> our
> > > > ideas,
> > > > > > even if they are good ideas. To some, it will seem like
we
> > are
> > > > bashing
> > > > > > the post.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I read Steve's post and thought it was very responsible
> that
> > > they
> > > > did
> > > > > > what they did. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that
> they
> > > > unstacked
> > > > > > the rock. Remember, innocent until proven guilty works in
> may
> > > ways
> > > > > > besides in a court of law, especially with friends and
> fellow
> > > > wheelers.
> > > > > > It was pointed out to me in an email from another member
> that
> > > his
> > > > email
> > > > > > also indicated that they might stack rocks if they go
> back.
> > > > Again, I
> > > > > > give him the benefit of the doubt that they will unstack
> them
> > > as
> > > > well.
> > > > > > If they do not, then I will lose and my trust of him will
> be
> > > lost.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Remember (and this is my final point since I don't want
> this
> > > to
> > > > grow in
> > > > > > to more than it has), if we were to never wheel on trails
> > that
> > > > there is
> > > > > > the potential that we will have to stack rocks, most of
us
> > > would
> > > > never
> > > > > > leave the graded dirt road. That would be a shame.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Chris
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 03:45 PM, Sandee
> McCullen
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Chris, I don't think anyone "jumped down anyones
> > > > throat".........
> > > > > > > simply
> > > > > > > stated "rock paving" is ruining our extreme trails and
> is
> > > > hurting us
> > > > > > > all.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have NO PROBLEM with turning around when finding a
> trail
> > > is
> > > > too
> > > > > > > tough but
> > > > > > > you and I both KNOW that there are waaaaaay too many
> > > vehicles
> > > > going
> > > > > > > into
> > > > > > > trails they KNOW they are not equipped to do without
> > rocking
> > > or
> > > > making
> > > > > > > by-passes! I hear over and over again....... "no
> problem,
> > > > we'll 'pull
> > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > through'". WHY???? Isn't actually "driving to the
> > > individual
> > > > > > > challenge"
> > > > > > > what we're suppose to be about?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I didn't pretend to "be there" and I didn't accuse
> anyone of
> > > > > > > "semi-permanent" damage. Nor did I accuse the rock
> > crawlers
> > > of
> > > > being
> > > > > > > "GODS". My message was to EVERYONE that are doing
> trails
> > > above
> > > > their
> > > > > > > ability, rock paving or making by-passes to get through
> to
> > > stay
> > > > within
> > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > own challenge limitations. These actions WILL affect
> ALL
> > of
> > > us
> > > > in the
> > > > > > > near
> > > > > > > future and it won't be what anyone wants to hear. This
> > kind
> > > of
> > > > abuse
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > closing trails across the country. The agencies are
> having
> > > a
> > > > tough
> > > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > time understanding the "challenge" of extreme 4-
> wheeling,
> > > but
> > > > when all
> > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > see is the rock paving, by-passes, oil spills, and
> > > vegetation
> > > > winched
> > > > > > > out of
> > > > > > > the ground they simply declare "abuse and resource
> damage"
> > > and
> > > > close
> > > > > > > everything. It's going to take ALL of us to truly show
> > > > RESPONSIBLE
> > > > > > > use of
> > > > > > > our recreation trails system................
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The responses from Todd and myself simply stated "to
> stay
> > on
> > > > trails
> > > > > > > within
> > > > > > > individual vehicle and/or driver
> > capabilities".............
> > > or
> > > > > > > "UNSTACK if
> > > > > > > the need for rocks is called for".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sandee
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > >> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> > > > > > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 3:28 PM
> > > > > > >> To: Sandee McCullen
> > > > > > >> Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking
> rocks
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Sandy and Todd, um, did either of you read his run
> > > description?
> > > > > > >> They turned around after deciding they were beyond
> their
> > > > capabilities.
> > > > > > >> The rock stacking was done to get back out. No
lectures
> > > should
> > > > be
> > > > > > >> given
> > > > > > >> because they had no idea what the trail ahead was like.
> > > > > > >> In my opinion, they did the sensible thing. They gave
> it a
> > > try
> > > > (aren't
> > > > > > >> we all allowed to do this, it being public land and
> all?)
> > > and
> > > > called
> > > > > > >> it
> > > > > > >> quits when it became apparent that it was beyond their
> > > > capabilities.
> > > > > > >> So
> > > > > > >> a few rocks were stacked to get them back out. At
least
> > > they
> > > > didn't
> > > > > > >> just continue on and stack the entire trail as others
> > > probably
> > > > would
> > > > > > >> have. Besides, he never said he didn't unstack them.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Everyone, please don't be so quick to jump down the
> other
> > > > guys/girls
> > > > > > >> throat, ESPECIALLY if you weren't there or do not know
> all
> > > the
> > > > facts.
> > > > > > >> When you make assumptions without facts, you just make
> > > > yourself look
> > > > > > >> bad and create ill will in the group. We have enough
> > > bickering
> > > > here
> > > > > > >> lately. Lets work to save our trails, not bicker about
> who
> > > can
> > > > play
> > > > > > >> where.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Just my $.02
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Chris
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 02:57 PM, Sandee
> > McCullen
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing
> > trails
> > > > via ROCK
> > > > > > >>> PAVING
> > > > > > >>> needs to stop.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line
> is
> > > > simply: If
> > > > > > >>> you
> > > > > > >>> cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with
rocks
> to
> > > > enable you
> > > > > > >>> to get
> > > > > > >>> through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T
> BELONG
> > > > THERE!! The
> > > > > > >>> "semi
> > > > > > >>> permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do
> > > > with "ruining a good
> > > > > > >>> trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of
> paving
> > is
> > > > what is
> > > > > > >>> "ruining
> > > > > > >>> the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now
> and
> > > then
> > > > to
> > > > > > >>> "help"
> > > > > > >>> is
> > > > > > >>> done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy
> would
> > > > have you
> > > > > > >>> REMOVE
> > > > > > >>> the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of
> the
> > > > obstacle.
> > > > > > >>> There
> > > > > > >>> are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge"
for
> > > every
> > > > level of
> > > > > > >>> 4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the
extreme
> > > > driver/vehicle
> > > > > > >>> is
> > > > > > >>> what is causing the problems and is what is in
> discussion
> > > > from your
> > > > > > >>> message.
> > > > > > >>> This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's
ALL
> of
> > > > us.........
> > > > > > >>> respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for
> all.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock
> > > crawling
> > > > with
> > > > > > >>> no,
> > > > > > >>> or
> > > > > > >>> very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS!
> All
> > > > they're
> > > > > > >>> asking is
> > > > > > >>> the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do
> > > > whatever they
> > > > > > >>> wish
> > > > > > >>> STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are
> not
> > > > happy about
> > > > > > >>> "rock
> > > > > > >>> paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the
> > watershed
> > > or
> > > > natural
> > > > > > >>> layout
> > > > > > >>> of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother
Nature
> > > does a
> > > > good
> > > > > > >>> job
> > > > > > >>> of
> > > > > > >>> keeping trails natural but some of the
stacking/paving
> > > > happening
> > > > > > >>> today
> > > > > > >>> is
> > > > > > >>> well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
> > > > > > >>> [FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks
in
> > the
> > > > bottom of
> > > > > > >>> a
> > > > > > >>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand
> > cubic
> > > > feet per
> > > > > > >>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another
good
> > > > trail."] This
> > > > > > >>>> may
> > > > > > >>> not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good
> > > trail"
> > > > but it
> > > > > > >>> is
> > > > > > >>> if
> > > > > > >>> YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother
> > > Nature
> > > > may
> > > > > > >>> make a
> > > > > > >>> trail easier or harder but that should be left to
> nature
> > > NOT
> > > > YOU or
> > > > > > >>> other
> > > > > > >>> want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have
> been
> > > > wheel'n
> > > > > > >>> Arizona and
> > > > > > >>> California since BEFORE the early 70's. For whatever
> > > that's
> > > > > > >>> worth??????
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Again, if you cannot traverse a trail or obstacle
with
> > > your
> > > > vehicle,
> > > > > > >>> winch,
> > > > > > >>> tires and/or ability and have to rock PAVE.......
You
> > > don't
> > > > belong
> > > > > > >>> there.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Sandee
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > >>>> From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
> > > > > > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:27 PM
> > > > > > >>>> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > >>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking
rocks
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it
> > appears
> > > > you would
> > > > > > >>>> like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
> > > > > > >>>> As it appears you coulden't read the first time from
> > your
> > > > throne:
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> 1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a
reasonable /
> > > > responsible
> > > > > > >>>> driver) because I had determined that (at that time)
> I
> > > was
> > > > not
> > > > > > >>>> properly equiped and did not have the resources if I
> > were
> > > to
> > > > get
> > > > > > >>>> into
> > > > > > >>>> trouble.
> > > > > > >>>> 2) I did recommend / advise against attempting
> without
> > > lots
> > > > of
> > > > > > >>>> clearance.
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
> > > > > > >>>> "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
> > > > > > >>>> As long as it is not causing long term damage (such
> as
> > > the
> > > > semi
> > > > > > >>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to
> > > climb
> > > > near
> > > > > > >>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or
anyone's
> > > right
> > > > to
> > > > > > >>>> say where someone does or does not belong (I don't
> > recall
> > > > seeing you
> > > > > > >>>> at the last BLM meeting either)
> > > > > > >>>> FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in
> the
> > > > bottom of a
> > > > > > >>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand
> > cubic
> > > > feet per
> > > > > > >>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another
good
> > > trail."
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it,
> you
> > do
> > > > not belong
> > > > > > >>>> on that trail."
> > > > > > >>>> I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted
(which
> > I'm
> > > > sure you
> > > > > > >>>> always use before spinning all four gouging and
> spiting
> > > rock
> > > > and
> > > > > > >>>> admitting lack of ability to move unassisted).
Let's
> > > compare
> > > > > > >>>> possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash
> vs.
> > > tire
> > > > scars on
> > > > > > >>>> vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng
> attended
> > > > several
> > > > > > >>>> competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never
stacked
> a
> > > rock
> > > > or two
> > > > > > >>>> for you, right?
> > > > > > >>>> By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling /
hiking
> in
> > > > this area
> > > > > > >>>> since the early 70's; you?
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> See you at the next BLM meeting
> > > > > > >>>> Steve
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
> > > > > > >>>>> This trail has been run by experienced drivers and
> rigs
> > > > equipped to
> > > > > > >>>> do it,
> > > > > > >>>>> without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to
> stack
> > > > rocks 20
> > > > > > >>>> yards into
> > > > > > >>>>> it, you do not belong on that trail.
> > > > > > >>>>> There are plenty of trails out there for everyones
> > level.
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Todd
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> Earlier this year, after talking with many people
> and
> > > > surveying
> > > > > > >>>>> from
> > > > > > >>>>>> the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
> > > > > > >>>>>> The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is
> > really
> > > > really
> > > > > > >>>>> really
> > > > > > >>>>>> nasty. Because the other members of the group did
> not
> > > > want to go
> > > > > > >>>> further,
> > > > > > >>>>>> I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only
> the
> > > first
> > > > 20-30
> > > > > > >>>> yards; it
> > > > > > >>>>>> took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of
> > > stacking+
> > > > body
> > > > > > >>>> damage to
> > > > > > >>>>>> get back out.
> > > > > > >>>>>> I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint
> > > hint)
> > > > but
> > > > > > >>>>> required
> > > > > > >>>>>> equipment would be:
> > > > > > >>>>>> minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage
> probable)
> > > > > > >>>>>> Front and rear lockers
> > > > > > >>>>>> winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> Call if interested
> > > > > > >>>>>> Steve Olney
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > >
> __________________________________________________ _______________
> > > > > > >>>>> From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite
> > > music
> > > > is always
> > > > > > >>>> playing
> > > > > > >>>>> on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month
FREE!
> > > > > > >>>>> http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > > > >>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > > > >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
94373 From: Chris <my1stjeep@e...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:04am
Subject: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Dammit, I saw it flinch so I kicked it again... I know it
twitched!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Chris
---------------------------------------------------------------------
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, NVRSTUKXJ@a... wrote:
> I've an idea....at the BBQ next month, someone bring a dead horse
and Chris and onley can have a showdown.....last man kicking the
dead horse wins.....and as an added bonus....meat for the
barby...... :-)
94374 From: Dave Peterson <gonzodave@y...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:05am
Subject: Dead horses, rocks, and BBQs
If T.J. brings all the rocks he's going to have, then we could dig a big
pit, heat the rocks up and cook the horse on them.
Gonzo
--- NVRSTUKXJ@a... wrote:
> I've an idea....at the BBQ next month, someone bring a dead horse and
> Chris and onley can have a showdown.....last man kicking the dead horse
> wins.....and as an added bonus....meat for the barby...... :-)
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
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94375 From: <NVRSTUKXJ@a...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:13am
Subject: Re: Dead horses, rocks, and BBQs
COOL.....dead horse luau.....
94376 From: olneyjeeps <olneyjeeps@y...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:16am
Subject: Re: Dead horses, rocks, and BBQs
http://www.cbc.ca/news/features/horse_meat_industry.html
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, NVRSTUKXJ@a... wrote:
> COOL.....dead horse luau.....
94377 From: Bob Jacques <bjacques@m...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:08am
Subject: Freeway Opening Display
If I may be so bold as to interrupt all this "rock-stacking / horse-kicking"
chatter, I would like to give some info on the display for Saturday morning.
Starting on Sat. morning at 6:00am, display vehicles, our jeeps, will be
allowed to use the loop 202entrance ramp at McClintock south of Chandler
Blvd. Chandler PD will be stationed there to direct display vehicles onto
the Freeway. At 7:30 am the ramp will be closed and you will have to enter
as a spectator at the Kyrene ramp. This means that you will not be able to
get your jeep onto the display side of the freeway.. In other words, "Make
sure the display vehicles arrive prior to 7:30 so they will not be turned
away at the McClintock On ramp....VERY IMPORTANT !! All displays will be on
the westbound lanes and all non display parking will be on the east bound
lanes. Display vehicles will not be allowed to leave until the end of the
show at 12:00 noon, however I can promise you that it will look like a
freeway at 12:01, OK, pun intended. just don't step into the HOV lane..
For those of you coming from far corners of the Valley, It would be best to
come down loop 101 to Chandler Blvd, exit and head west to McClintock, (past
the new Chandler Fashion Mall). Turn South on McClintock to the new freeway
and follow the police instruction s for display Vehicles, (previous
paragraph).
Here is a list of who's bringing what, major stuff:
Troy, VCR, Cables, Ice chest full of Soda (YEAAAH!!)
Tim, TV and Hood, Cables
Bob, banner, Tapes, Generator and ext cord, R/C Jeeps, Handouts from
Sandee
Matt, More handouts, Cleanup fliers
Tom, Water, Baby
Everyone, Chairs, anything else you want to..
Only thing we haven't covered is if someone more computer literate than me
can generate some cards with the logo and website addy on them.... PLEASE...
Thanks for all the help, If everyone comes thru as they committed they
would, we will have a very successful display... I will arrive around 6:45,
my cell # is 480-226-6127 and I will have channel 4 on the CB turned on for
you once you get close... Wear your red shirts, bring what you said you
would, We'll see you there..
Any questions please call.. Thx, Bob J.
OK, Back to Rock Kicking and Horse Stacking !!
94378 From: olneyjeeps <olneyjeeps@y...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:18am
Subject: Re: Dead horses, rocks, and BBQs
Anyone got a really big pot?
http://www.salon.com/people/feature/2002/03/05/re
94369 From: Jeff Trujillo <jeff.trujillo@m...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:29am
Subject: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Hey Chris, wheres the horse at, I want to kick it too! LMAO Jeff
CamoXJ--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "DesertJeep" <joey@d...> wrote:
> You go Chris!! LOL kick that horse!!! :)
>
> Joey K
> 93YJ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris [mailto:my1stjeep@e...]
> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 8:25 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
>
> Mr. Onley,
>
> I nowhere implied of the items you accuse, I think you need to get
> your mind reading abilities checked. I stated it is not a good
> idea, I also stated if they are stacked and yes I did agree that
> sometimes it is necessary, maybe you should re-read a post before
> replying. Please be sure to get your facts straight before you
make
> accusations that are completely unfounded.
>
> I never stated if you have to stack rock you don't belong there,
> mistakes happen and yes you may take a line and slip off and it is
> necessary, however my statement was (again get your facts straight)
> that if you are going into a trail with the mindset that you are
> going to have to (not as an option and I believe I did say it was
ok
> to use as a last resort, again read the posts before responding)
> than you should not being do the trail.
>
> Let us look at the implications of your post which has lead to this
> discussion. Some of those facts you left of your response.
>
> Two in particular are what has started this whole thing:
> The last time you ran the trail, you were the only one to try it,
> you got so far in and decided to turn around, rock stacking had to
> take place to get out and you did get body damage. I respect the
> fact that you had to stack rocks and you got in over your head, you
> made a smart move and retreated, I did give you the benefit of the
> doubt while it was never stated, that you remove the rocks that you
> stack as to keep from the area becoming paved.
>
> You then asked for attendees on your next trip to have strong
backs,
> implies you are already assuming that you will be stacking rocks to
> get through it as you don't think you can any other way.
>
> Then another comment in a future email (this is the one that
finally
> got me to reply) was your comment about so be it if we have to pave
> them you were all for it. Then I see in the email below you are
> against it, which is it??????????
>
> If you had understood my comments (or that mind reading thing you
> think you have for implications was working) I said it was ok to
> stack rocks if necessary, if you get into a situation where there
is
> not another option, but going into a trail where you are going to
> stack rocks just to make it easy enough is wrong.
>
> I alos think you are mixing up your responses, as I never called
> anyone a Jealous Wanna Be, guess reading my post a second time
might
> have helped you understand who wrote what. Again I ask you to get
> your facts straight and if you respond to what I write, keep it
that
> way, don't bring in other posts information.
>
> Have a nice day and happy wheeling.
>
> Chris "never implied jack about being a perfect wheeler"
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>
> --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "olneyjeeps" <olneyjeeps@y...> wrote:
> > as a clarification to my previous post (made at 3am due to a
local
> > power outage)
> > I do not, did not and never will condone "paving"
> > "you started off by implying rock stacking would be going on by
> > > asking for attendees to bring a stong back, you touched of a
> nerve
> > > in alot of people here. Setting expectations to newcomers to
> our
> > > sport that going into a trail that your vehicle or the driver
> > cannot
> > > handle, but don't worry just stack rocks is not a very good way
> to
> > > start things off"
> > Just as a reminder, let's read what I said:
> > "required
> > > equipment would be:
> > > minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
> > > Front and rear lockers
> > > winch + hooks
> > > strong back (rocks are heavy)"
> >
> > If, in attempting any "challenging trail", you are not prepared /
> > able to move a rock or two (as you imply you never have), or use
a
> > winch, in the event of a missed line (as you imply you never
> have),
> > then you are bound to get in trouble (as you imply you never
> have).
> > I never said anyone did not belong there (the last trip,
> exploritory
> > in nature, included a TJ with 31's... are you saying he was not
> > entitled to come as far as he could (yes we pulled him off a rock
> he
> > misjudged 1.5 miles in) to watch/assist?). To join THIS trip, I
> did
> > not want anyone who could not "pull his own weight" in the event
> of a
> > minor mishap. You have the same right to exclude people from
trips
> > YOU lead, NOT from an area (unless of course you have full
> > title/ownership of said area).
> >
> > The rocks whick were moved (I believe the total count was 3 or 4)
> > were to get me off a rock on which I had become high centered
> caused
> > by unfortunate slip off line which countless people have done,
> > even/especially the "hard core" . If you read the trip
> > report/description, you would have read that the trip was
> exploritory
> > only with little/no expectation of completion (expected / planned
> to
> > walk trail). The trip was not made to seek "challanging terrain"
> (I
> > avoid trips (expecially with my daughter) of this sort because it
> has
> > been my experience that this is when most trail damge occours and
> I
> > try to avoid situations which would but me or others in danger),
> but
> > to enjoy the incredibly scenic views.
> > Although trail damage is inexcusable and should never be
> encouraged
> > or condoned, I do take particular offence to anyone (sierra club
> or
> > hard core 4wheeler, no matter how involved they may be) who
wishes
> to
> > claim sole access to any area. To answer your points: NASCAR is
> > privatly owned and operated and can make its own rules. Although
> > there are very strict regulations for driving on the Autobahn
> (alle
> > Deutsche Strasse),improper tire rating does not (unless a new law
> is
> > in effect since my last visit) cause the loss of license for a
> year.
> >
> > As for forbiding any type of rock stacking because of safety
> (whether
> > rocks were replaced or not), because it is part of nearly every
> > competition,this would eliminate most every competion held.
> > As your use safety to further your agenda (god forbid someone
> should
> > break a finger), vehicles should be banned if not properly fitted
> > with proper safety equipment. Much more important than the fear
> of
> > broken fingers should be that of broken heads. Note:in every
> picture
> > in my gallery I and my childeren and anyone ever allowed in my
> Jeep
> > wear 4pt harnesses under a Randy Ellis modified 6pt cage (yes
that
> is
> > a picture of me and my friends 20years ago, before people
> > seeking "more challenging trails" cut the landscape to shreds and
> > when the Four Peaks trails could be counted) .
> > The blanket statent ...."If you can't complete...without
> stacking...
> > DONT BELONG THERE" implicitly includes situations which require a
> > winch (as these situations are usually much more severe). This
> would
> > mean everyone who ever stacked or used a winch was where they did
> not
> > belong (wouldn't this include nearly 100% of severE rock
crawlers,
> as
> > I have yet to see a competiion where rocks were not stacked
and/or
> > winches were not used)?
> >
> > You say "It is imperrative theselands remain open to ALL", but it
> is
> > quite clear you wish to control who can or cannot even attempt
> > certain trails. Having a highly equipped vehicle, you (of
course)
> > would be exempt and can, in search of a "challenge" attempt
> anything
> > with or without stacking/winching. Dosen't a "challenge"
> implicitly
> > include the possibilty of the need of assistance? Isn't it
> > EVERYONE'S right to attempt a "challanging" trail?
> >
> > Bottom line IMHO:
> >
> > Pushing your limits (finding trails which provide a challenge) is
> not
> > a sin as long as you stop before exceeding your limits (jeez,
isnt
> > that what I did?). Although making / causing permanant damage is
> > wrong, attempting challenging trails is largely what our sport is
> > about and should be encouraged and ASSISTED by those who have the
> > ability/experience (not bashed and heckled as "jealous wannabees"
> in
> > an effort to keep areas their own private domain).
> >
> > As hard as it has been to see areas I once hiked and hunted
> covered
> > with houses, NO ONE (sierra club or hard core specialist) has the
> > right to tell ANYONE (who treats the enviroment with safety and
> > respect) where they can or cannot go.
> >
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <my1stjeep@e...> wrote:
> > > Everyone has an opinion. You say you want to keep it open and
we
> > > ahve repeatedly been told rock stacking, creating by passes
> etc...
> > > due cause trail closures, so why would you go into a trail
> knowing
> > > either the vehicle or the driver cannot do it without rock
> stacking?
> > >
> > > Yes sometimes it is needed to get by, but just as you talk
about
> > > preservation, they should be removed, it is a insane to even
> think
> > > paving would keep the trails open. If paved tails are what
will
> be
> > > open then your logic would serve that not matter how many want
> the
> > > harder trails open we can kiss them good bye, they will close
> them
> > > and tell us the current paved trails are enough, is that your
> > goal?
> > > Do you want these trails closed so we can run everything in 2wd?
> > >
> > > I am at a loss for words for you to be calling anyone names,
> > > especially from the person I see on every adgenda, every
> meeting,
> > at
> > > every event to keep them open. She is simply reminding you
> > (albight
> > > passionately) of some of the reasons our trails are closed and
> > since
> > > you started off by implying rock stacking would be going on by
> > > asking for attendees to bring a stong back, you touched of a
> nerve
> > > in alot of people here. Setting expectations to newcomers to
> our
> > > sport that going into a trail that your vehicle or the driver
> > cannot
> > > handle, but don't worry just stack rocks is not a very good way
> to
> > > start things off. It sets a bad example for newcomers not to
> > > mention that someone could get hurt driving a pretty stock rig
> > > through something like Sandy Beach or Anaconda or Anihilator
> or ???
> > > just cause they have the attitude they can stack their way out.
> > >
> > > I hope that you are aware of the land agencies thoughts on
this,
> > but
> > > from your message and thoughts of what they deem damage I fear
> you
> > > do not. Before you go off on someone calling them names you
> might
> > > want to be sure of the facts that the items you are talking
> about
> > > are deemed damage, tire marks are not. I also hope you remove
> the
> > > rocks when you are done, you did not say either way, but I will
> > give
> > > you the benefit of the doubt.
> > >
> > > Keep in mind you should only do what it is safe for your
vehicle
> to
> > > do, and a driver can make up for alot. However someone who
> wants
> > to
> > > run NASCAR, but cannot afford all the equipment (or in our case
> a
> > > full blown rock crawling rig) will be stopped from running the
> > race,
> > > if you drive the Autobaughn and get caught with tires that
don't
> > > match the speed rating for how fast you were going you lose
your
> > > license to drive period, it is called safety. Stacking rocks
> can
> > > lead to broken fingers, pulled muscles, unearthed scorpions or
> > other
> > > creatures that can sting or bite you, the rocks can shift while
> you
> > > go over them and could even cause you to roll over and while
> > > sometimes is it necessary as a last resort we should not go
into
> a
> > > trail with the though process that we are going to do it just
to
> > get
> > > through it. It is not safe and it is not a preserving
mentality.
> > >
> > > JMO
> > >
> > > Chris
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
-
> ---
> > -
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "olneyjeeps" <olneyjeeps@y...>
> wrote:
> > > > Thank you for showing your true colors - self ritcous pompus
> > > > controlling wannabe get to tell everyone where they can or
> cannot
> > > go
> > > > based on how you thought it would possibly change the run;
> > > > As you may have been deaf and blind at the last blm meeting.
I
> > and
> > > my
> > > > family enjoy exploring what shrinking habatat there is. They
> > > should
> > > > not be limited to the hiking "elite". Nor should they be
> limited
> > > to
> > > > the "extreeme four wheeler" My position is that these lands
> must
> > > > remain open (gonna lose some friende here) even if it has to
> be
> > > > paved.
> > > >
> > > > No One should have sole right to the beauty / solitude /
> > > challange.
> > > > This or any canyon is not for any one group. The more people
> > that
> > > > see theese trails, the more people will want to preserve it.
> The
> > > > trail is a trail, not your private playground. Not too long
> ago
> > > your
> > > > house was bare desart, get rid of the stacking there so you
> may
> > > have
> > > > your own private playground.
> > > > AlthoughI do not advocate wheel spinning, rockstatking, or
> > > winching
> > > > thry do have their place in rare occasions, It is imperrative
> > > these
> > > > lands remain open to ALL (forgive me for yelling) and not
just
> > the
> > > > owners of fab shops creating vehicles by whose standards
leave
> > 90%
> > > of
> > > > the club "not worthy" / wannabees (how many of you that dont'
> > have
> > > > 60's front and rear,4link airlockers, 44's etc realized you
> were
> > > just
> > > > labeled a wanabe, and therefore, by Ms. McCullen's judgement
> > owing
> > > > gratitude for being allowed to travel the trails she and her
> sons
> > > no
> > > > longer consider "challanging"? Maybe we should rent heavy
> > > equipment
> > > > and go in and tear up the trails so that no one (except
Sandy
> > and
> > > > her sons) can enjoy.
> > > >
> > > > In response to your comment referring to my comment
as "sounds
> > > like
> > > > like the green eye of
> > > > > jealousy to me." Give me a break. There is not a speck
> > > > (possesions, ability or otherwise) that you and your world
> > > traveled
> > > > multi lingual college educated kids and their "toys" have
that
> I
> > > > would waste on starting a fire. My girls love spending time
> with
> > > me
> > > > exploring in the Jeeps. I need nothing more to garner their
> full
> > > > love and devotion.
> > > >
> > > > Public land is public land. Just as I fight to keep the
> Sierra
> > > Club
> > > > from blocking off land for a limited few, I resent Sandy and
> > > others
> > > > for claiming that they have exclusive right to any area.
> > > >
> > > > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee McCullen"
> <mccullen@c...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > OK........... my apologies in the use of "YOU". It was
> meant
> > > to be
> > > > > directed at anyone that is into a trail they don't
> belong.....
> > > or
> > > > those that
> > > > > seem to believe PAVING is simply a way to allow them to go
> > where
> > > > they
> > > > > please! Yes, caps indicate yelling or very strong
> suggestion
> > > and
> > > > that is
> > > > > exactly what I meant. I agree I was not there and I do
> > > appreciate
> > > > the fact
> > > > > he did turn around, but he also slams the extreme wheeler
> and
> > > > indicated he
> > > > > had as much right on those trails as anyone else. NO he
> does
> > > > not.........
> > > > > not if it means the extreme wheeler has to lose any/all
> > > challenge
> > > > they have
> > > > > because someone wants to "do what the big guys do". I'm so
> > > tired
> > > > of this
> > > > > attitude and mentality. Just because someone builds a
> vehicle
> > > > capable of
> > > > > doing almost anything does not make them "the big guy",
> > > or "GOD",
> > > > or anyone
> > > > > any different than you, I or the first time 4-wheeler.
> > > > >
> > > > > There were comments comparing the "damage" the buggies or
> rock
> > > > crawlers do
> > > > > ............ like leaving "semi-permanent marks" on the
> rocks.
> > > Or
> > > > climbing
> > > > > "near vertical obstacles"........ sounds like like the
> green
> > > eye of
> > > > > jealousy to me. This is not damage........ paving or
> making
> > by-
> > > > passes IS
> > > > > damage and abuse and these actions are what will close ALL
> our
> > > > trails.
> > > > > ......
> > > > >
> > > > > [As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the
> semi
> > > > > > >>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to
> > > climb
> > > > near
> > > > > > >>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or
anyone's
> > > right
> > > > to
> > > > > > >>>> say where someone does or does not belong]
> > > > >
> > > > > This comes across to me as "I'll do as I
> please"........ "it's
> > > my
> > > > right to
> > > > > stack rocks as long as the day is long", "I don't do any
> more
> > > > damage than
> > > > > the "rock scratchers" yada yada yada!! YES, it is MY RIGHT
> if
> > > > these kinds
> > > > > of actions lose the only challenge I have within my sport!
> > YES,
> > > I
> > > > AM
> > > > > YELLING Chris............... there are way too many
> > > recreationists
> > > > out
> > > > > there that simply do NOT get the picture. Too many ATV's
> tear
> > > > across
> > > > > country, the 4-wheelers enter trails they are not capable
of
> > > doing,
> > > > many
> > > > > motorcycles go way to fast............... and we can't
seem
> to
> > > > understand
> > > > > "WHY" we're losing everything. The agencies simply do not
> want
> > > to
> > > > deal with
> > > > > the headaches of the recreationists not being
> > > responsible. .....
> > > > Before
> > > > > you go off again, I'm not saying or claiming this Steve
> > was "not"
> > > > > responsible but his attitude is certainly in the grey
area...
> > > > > There are LARGE groups of agency planners that feel
> the "graded
> > > > gravel roads
> > > > > should be enough for us". There are also LARGE numbers of
> new
> > > > personnel
> > > > > joining the land management agencies and believe
> > > me.............,
> > > > for the
> > > > > most part, they are GREEN!!! Everyone seems to be
> > into "saving"
> > > > something.
> > > > > Our battles will not be getting easier and abuse such as
> rock
> > > > paving and
> > > > > by-passes are the first issues to be held over us. We lost
> > > > Jawbreaker
> > > > > because of "rock paving"........ had vehicles going
> > > > through "DErocked" the
> > > > > obstacle after getting through the Tucson BLM wouldn't have
> had
> > > > anything to
> > > > > present to the courts to show "abuse". Game & Fish are no
> > > better.
> > > > If it's
> > > > > not wildlife habitat destruction, it's "messing up the
> > > watershed"
> > > > of the
> > > > > area or rock stacking is showing to alter the flow because
> it
> > > tends
> > > > to hold
> > > > > silt or gravel instead of allowing it to wash down stream
> etc
> > etc
> > > > > etc............. there's desert tortoise, or a lizard, or
> > > beetle
> > > > or a WEED.
> > > > > They'll use anything they can to shut out OHV
> > > recreation.........
> > > > WHY do we
> > > > > insist on hurting ourselves!!!?
> > > > >
> > > > > I am rambling and will continue to do so until ALL of my
> fellow
> > > 4-
> > > > wheelers
> > > > > finally understand that we each have our own level of
> wheeling
> > > and
> > > > to mess
> > > > > us someone elses challenge just to prove a point, will shut
> us
> > > all
> > > > down.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sandee
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 5:40 PM
> > > > > > To: Sandee McCullen
> > > > > > Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I quote you:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "If you cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with
> > rocks
> > > to
> > > > > > enable you to get through or across an obstacle........
> YOU
> > > DON'T
> > > > > > BELONG THERE!!"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The use of "you" and the caps (internet yelling) make it
> look
> > > > like it
> > > > > > was directed to him. Sorry if I misinterpreted this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your points are all correct, but it is incorrect to use
> them
> > > > against
> > > > > > Steve in this case, since we were not there and have no
> idea
> > > in
> > > > what
> > > > > > condition he left the trail.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If we are going to preach, we should do it in a general
> > > manner.
> > > > It is
> > > > > > unfair to use someone else's post about a run to further
> our
> > > > ideas,
> > > > > > even if they are good ideas. To some, it will seem like
we
> > are
> > > > bashing
> > > > > > the post.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I read Steve's post and thought it was very responsible
> that
> > > they
> > > > did
> > > > > > what they did. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that
> they
> > > > unstacked
> > > > > > the rock. Remember, innocent until proven guilty works in
> may
> > > ways
> > > > > > besides in a court of law, especially with friends and
> fellow
> > > > wheelers.
> > > > > > It was pointed out to me in an email from another member
> that
> > > his
> > > > > > also indicated that they might stack rocks if they go
> back.
> > > > Again, I
> > > > > > give him the benefit of the doubt that they will unstack
> them
> > > as
> > > > well.
> > > > > > If they do not, then I will lose and my trust of him will
> be
> > > lost.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Remember (and this is my final point since I don't want
> this
> > > to
> > > > grow in
> > > > > > to more than it has), if we were to never wheel on trails
> > that
> > > > there is
> > > > > > the potential that we will have to stack rocks, most of
us
> > > would
> > > > never
> > > > > > leave the graded dirt road. That would be a shame.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Chris
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 03:45 PM, Sandee
> McCullen
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Chris, I don't think anyone "jumped down anyones
> > > > throat".........
> > > > > > > simply
> > > > > > > stated "rock paving" is ruining our extreme trails and
> is
> > > > hurting us
> > > > > > > all.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have NO PROBLEM with turning around when finding a
> trail
> > > is
> > > > too
> > > > > > > tough but
> > > > > > > you and I both KNOW that there are waaaaaay too many
> > > vehicles
> > > > going
> > > > > > > into
> > > > > > > trails they KNOW they are not equipped to do without
> > rocking
> > > or
> > > > making
> > > > > > > by-passes! I hear over and over again....... "no
> problem,
> > > > we'll 'pull
> > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > through'". WHY???? Isn't actually "driving to the
> > > individual
> > > > > > > challenge"
> > > > > > > what we're suppose to be about?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I didn't pretend to "be there" and I didn't accuse
> anyone of
> > > > > > > "semi-permanent" damage. Nor did I accuse the rock
> > crawlers
> > > of
> > > > being
> > > > > > > "GODS". My message was to EVERYONE that are doing
> trails
> > > above
> > > > their
> > > > > > > ability, rock paving or making by-passes to get through
> to
> > > stay
> > > > within
> > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > own challenge limitations. These actions WILL affect
> ALL
> > of
> > > us
> > > > in the
> > > > > > > near
> > > > > > > future and it won't be what anyone wants to hear. This
> > kind
> > > of
> > > > abuse
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > closing trails across the country. The agencies are
> having
> > > a
> > > > tough
> > > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > time understanding the "challenge" of extreme 4-
> wheeling,
> > > but
> > > > when all
> > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > see is the rock paving, by-passes, oil spills, and
> > > vegetation
> > > > winched
> > > > > > > out of
> > > > > > > the ground they simply declare "abuse and resource
> damage"
> > > and
> > > > close
> > > > > > > everything. It's going to take ALL of us to truly show
> > > > RESPONSIBLE
> > > > > > > use of
> > > > > > > our recreation trails system................
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The responses from Todd and myself simply stated "to
> stay
> > on
> > > > trails
> > > > > > > within
> > > > > > > individual vehicle and/or driver
> > capabilities".............
> > > or
> > > > > > > "UNSTACK if
> > > > > > > the need for rocks is called for".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sandee
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > >> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> > > > > > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 3:28 PM
> > > > > > >> To: Sandee McCullen
> > > > > > >> Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking
> rocks
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Sandy and Todd, um, did either of you read his run
> > > description?
> > > > > > >> They turned around after deciding they were beyond
> their
> > > > capabilities.
> > > > > > >> The rock stacking was done to get back out. No
lectures
> > > should
> > > > be
> > > > > > >> given
> > > > > > >> because they had no idea what the trail ahead was like.
> > > > > > >> In my opinion, they did the sensible thing. They gave
> it a
> > > try
> > > > (aren't
> > > > > > >> we all allowed to do this, it being public land and
> all?)
> > > and
> > > > called
> > > > > > >> it
> > > > > > >> quits when it became apparent that it was beyond their
> > > > capabilities.
> > > > > > >> So
> > > > > > >> a few rocks were stacked to get them back out. At
least
> > > they
> > > > didn't
> > > > > > >> just continue on and stack the entire trail as others
> > > probably
> > > > would
> > > > > > >> have. Besides, he never said he didn't unstack them.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Everyone, please don't be so quick to jump down the
> other
> > > > guys/girls
> > > > > > >> throat, ESPECIALLY if you weren't there or do not know
> all
> > > the
> > > > facts.
> > > > > > >> When you make assumptions without facts, you just make
> > > > yourself look
> > > > > > >> bad and create ill will in the group. We have enough
> > > bickering
> > > > here
> > > > > > >> lately. Lets work to save our trails, not bicker about
> who
> > > can
> > > > play
> > > > > > >> where.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Just my $.02
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Chris
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 02:57 PM, Sandee
> > McCullen
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing
> > trails
> > > > via ROCK
> > > > > > >>> PAVING
> > > > > > >>> needs to stop.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line
> is
> > > > simply: If
> > > > > > >>> you
> > > > > > >>> cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with
rocks
> to
> > > > enable you
> > > > > > >>> to get
> > > > > > >>> through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T
> BELONG
> > > > THERE!! The
> > > > > > >>> "semi
> > > > > > >>> permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do
> > > > with "ruining a good
> > > > > > >>> trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of
> paving
> > is
> > > > what is
> > > > > > >>> "ruining
> > > > > > >>> the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now
> and
> > > then
> > > > to
> > > > > > >>> "help"
> > > > > > >>> is
> > > > > > >>> done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy
> would
> > > > have you
> > > > > > >>> REMOVE
> > > > > > >>> the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of
> the
> > > > obstacle.
> > > > > > >>> There
> > > > > > >>> are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge"
for
> > > every
> > > > level of
> > > > > > >>> 4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the
extreme
> > > > driver/vehicle
> > > > > > >>> is
> > > > > > >>> what is causing the problems and is what is in
> discussion
> > > > from your
> > > > > > >>> message.
> > > > > > >>> This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's
ALL
> of
> > > > us.........
> > > > > > >>> respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for
> all.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock
> > > crawling
> > > > with
> > > > > > >>> no,
> > > > > > >>> or
> > > > > > >>> very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS!
> All
> > > > they're
> > > > > > >>> asking is
> > > > > > >>> the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do
> > > > whatever they
> > > > > > >>> wish
> > > > > > >>> STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are
> not
> > > > happy about
> > > > > > >>> "rock
> > > > > > >>> paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the
> > watershed
> > > or
> > > > natural
> > > > > > >>> layout
> > > > > > >>> of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother
Nature
> > > does a
> > > > good
> > > > > > >>> job
> > > > > > >>> of
> > > > > > >>> keeping trails natural but some of the
stacking/paving
> > > > happening
> > > > > > >>> today
> > > > > > >>> is
> > > > > > >>> well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
> > > > > > >>> [FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks
in
> > the
> > > > bottom of
> > > > > > >>> a
> > > > > > >>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand
> > cubic
> > > > feet per
> > > > > > >>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another
good
> > > > trail."] This
> > > > > > >>>> may
> > > > > > >>> not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good
> > > trail"
> > > > but it
> > > > > > >>> is
> > > > > > >>> if
> > > > > > >>> YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother
> > > Nature
> > > > may
> > > > > > >>> make a
> > > > > > >>> trail easier or harder but that should be left to
> nature
> > > NOT
> > > > YOU or
> > > > > > >>> other
> > > > > > >>> want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have
> been
> > > > wheel'n
> > > > > > >>> Arizona and
> > > > > > >>> California since BEFORE the early 70's. For whatever
> > > that's
> > > > > > >>> worth??????
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Again, if you cannot traverse a trail or obstacle
with
> > > your
> > > > vehicle,
> > > > > > >>> winch,
> > > > > > >>> tires and/or ability and have to rock PAVE.......
You
> > > don't
> > > > belong
> > > > > > >>> there.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Sandee
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > >>>> From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
> > > > > > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:27 PM
> > > > > > >>>> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > >>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking
rocks
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it
> > appears
> > > > you would
> > > > > > >>>> like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
> > > > > > >>>> As it appears you coulden't read the first time from
> > your
> > > > throne:
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> 1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a
reasonable /
> > > > responsible
> > > > > > >>>> driver) because I had determined that (at that time)
> I
> > > was
> > > > not
> > > > > > >>>> properly equiped and did not have the resources if I
> > were
> > > to
> > > > get
> > > > > > >>>> into
> > > > > > >>>> trouble.
> > > > > > >>>> 2) I did recommend / advise against attempting
> without
> > > lots
> > > > of
> > > > > > >>>> clearance.
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
> > > > > > >>>> "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
> > > > > > >>>> As long as it is not causing long term damage (such
> as
> > > the
> > > > semi
> > > > > > >>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to
> > > climb
> > > > near
> > > > > > >>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or
anyone's
> > > right
> > > > to
> > > > > > >>>> say where someone does or does not belong (I don't
> > recall
> > > > seeing you
> > > > > > >>>> at the last BLM meeting either)
> > > > > > >>>> FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in
> the
> > > > bottom of a
> > > > > > >>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand
> > cubic
> > > > feet per
> > > > > > >>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another
good
> > > trail."
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it,
> you
> > do
> > > > not belong
> > > > > > >>>> on that trail."
> > > > > > >>>> I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted
(which
> > I'm
> > > > sure you
> > > > > > >>>> always use before spinning all four gouging and
> spiting
> > > rock
> > > > and
> > > > > > >>>> admitting lack of ability to move unassisted).
Let's
> > > compare
> > > > > > >>>> possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash
> vs.
> > > tire
> > > > scars on
> > > > > > >>>> vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng
> attended
> > > > several
> > > > > > >>>> competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never
stacked
> a
> > > rock
> > > > or two
> > > > > > >>>> for you, right?
> > > > > > >>>> By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling /
hiking
> in
> > > > this area
> > > > > > >>>> since the early 70's; you?
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> See you at the next BLM meeting
> > > > > > >>>> Steve
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
> > > > > > >>>>> This trail has been run by experienced drivers and
> rigs
> > > > equipped to
> > > > > > >>>> do it,
> > > > > > >>>>> without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to
> stack
> > > > rocks 20
> > > > > > >>>> yards into
> > > > > > >>>>> it, you do not belong on that trail.
> > > > > > >>>>> There are plenty of trails out there for everyones
> > level.
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Todd
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> Earlier this year, after talking with many people
> and
> > > > surveying
> > > > > > >>>>> from
> > > > > > >>>>>> the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
> > > > > > >>>>>> The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is
> > really
> > > > really
> > > > > > >>>>> really
> > > > > > >>>>>> nasty. Because the other members of the group did
> not
> > > > want to go
> > > > > > >>>> further,
> > > > > > >>>>>> I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only
> the
> > > first
> > > > 20-30
> > > > > > >>>> yards; it
> > > > > > >>>>>> took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of
> > > stacking+
> > > > body
> > > > > > >>>> damage to
> > > > > > >>>>>> get back out.
> > > > > > >>>>>> I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint
> > > hint)
> > > > but
> > > > > > >>>>> required
> > > > > > >>>>>> equipment would be:
> > > > > > >>>>>> minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage
> probable)
> > > > > > >>>>>> Front and rear lockers
> > > > > > >>>>>> winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> Call if interested
> > > > > > >>>>>> Steve Olney
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > >
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ADVERTISEMENT
94370 From: <NVRSTUKXJ@a...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:51am
Subject: Re: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
"now T.J. will have all the rocks at his house."
PARTY TIME!!!!!!
94371 From: <NVRSTUKXJ@a...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:56am
Subject: Re: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
I've an idea....at the BBQ next month, someone bring a dead horse and Chris and onley can have a showdown.....last man kicking the dead horse wins.....and as an added bonus....meat for the barby...... :-)
94372 From: olneyjeeps <olneyjeeps@y...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:00am
Subject: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
(abridged version of message sent to "Chris"
Eventhough it has been printed several dozen times in the last couple
of days (plus on my member page, plus on every trip I have
attended/lead and not that it excentuates anyones ability to
read/comprehend what is written and written and written), I'll say it
really s l o w
Stve
O
L
N
E
Y
(as in Olney... Jeeps)
(oh god... its....a. PUN!!! (pun)n. A play on words, sometimes on
different senses of the same word and sometimes on the similar sense
or sound of differents. Also called "paronamasia."
Steve Olney (my 1st,2nd,16th,27th,35th and38th Jeep)
Get the difibulator and set at 800joules.... CLEAR!!!
Every competitor I have seen, has had a spotter who coule (and did)
move/ stack rocks
To require members of a trip to be prepared is not (although it may
be for someone with their 1st Jeep) synonomous with planning to use
such equipment (I have had an 8000lb winch for 7 years now and have
only used it once (to pull a friends Toyota back on the trail))
The requirement of a strong back (along with winch,straps, jack,
lockers, preferably 35s or larger, etc) was ment primarily to
excentuate the difficulty of the trail.
anyone gonna call it?
Time of death 09:35
would some glue help rocks stick together?
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <my1stjeep@e...> wrote:
> Mr. Onley,
>
> I nowhere implied of the items you accuse, I think you need to get
> your mind reading abilities checked. I stated it is not a good
> idea, I also stated if they are stacked and yes I did agree that
> sometimes it is necessary, maybe you should re-read a post before
> replying. Please be sure to get your facts straight before you
make
> accusations that are completely unfounded.
>
> I never stated if you have to stack rock you don't belong there,
> mistakes happen and yes you may take a line and slip off and it is
> necessary, however my statement was (again get your facts straight)
> that if you are going into a trail with the mindset that you are
> going to have to (not as an option and I believe I did say it was
ok
> to use as a last resort, again read the posts before responding)
> than you should not being do the trail.
>
> Let us look at the implications of your post which has lead to this
> discussion. Some of those facts you left of your response.
>
> Two in particular are what has started this whole thing:
> The last time you ran the trail, you were the only one to try it,
> you got so far in and decided to turn around, rock stacking had to
> take place to get out and you did get body damage. I respect the
> fact that you had to stack rocks and you got in over your head, you
> made a smart move and retreated, I did give you the benefit of the
> doubt while it was never stated, that you remove the rocks that you
> stack as to keep from the area becoming paved.
>
> You then asked for attendees on your next trip to have strong
backs,
> implies you are already assuming that you will be stacking rocks to
> get through it as you don't think you can any other way.
>
> Then another comment in a future email (this is the one that
finally
> got me to reply) was your comment about so be it if we have to pave
> them you were all for it. Then I see in the email below you are
> against it, which is it??????????
>
> If you had understood my comments (or that mind reading thing you
> think you have for implications was working) I said it was ok to
> stack rocks if necessary, if you get into a situation where there
is
> not another option, but going into a trail where you are going to
> stack rocks just to make it easy enough is wrong.
>
> I alos think you are mixing up your responses, as I never called
> anyone a Jealous Wanna Be, guess reading my post a second time
might
> have helped you understand who wrote what. Again I ask you to get
> your facts straight and if you respond to what I write, keep it
that
> way, don't bring in other posts information.
>
> Have a nice day and happy wheeling.
>
> Chris "never implied jack about being a perfect wheeler"
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>
> --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "olneyjeeps" <olneyjeeps@y...> wrote:
> > as a clarification to my previous post (made at 3am due to a
local
> > power outage)
> > I do not, did not and never will condone "paving"
> > "you started off by implying rock stacking would be going on by
> > > asking for attendees to bring a stong back, you touched of a
> nerve
> > > in alot of people here. Setting expectations to newcomers to
> our
> > > sport that going into a trail that your vehicle or the driver
> > cannot
> > > handle, but don't worry just stack rocks is not a very good way
> to
> > > start things off"
> > Just as a reminder, let's read what I said:
> > "required
> > > equipment would be:
> > > minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
> > > Front and rear lockers
> > > winch + hooks
> > > strong back (rocks are heavy)"
> >
> > If, in attempting any "challenging trail", you are not prepared /
> > able to move a rock or two (as you imply you never have), or use
a
> > winch, in the event of a missed line (as you imply you never
> have),
> > then you are bound to get in trouble (as you imply you never
> have).
> > I never said anyone did not belong there (the last trip,
> exploritory
> > in nature, included a TJ with 31's... are you saying he was not
> > entitled to come as far as he could (yes we pulled him off a rock
> he
> > misjudged 1.5 miles in) to watch/assist?). To join THIS trip, I
> did
> > not want anyone who could not "pull his own weight" in the event
> of a
> > minor mishap. You have the same right to exclude people from
trips
> > YOU lead, NOT from an area (unless of course you have full
> > title/ownership of said area).
> >
> > The rocks whick were moved (I believe the total count was 3 or 4)
> > were to get me off a rock on which I had become high centered
> caused
> > by unfortunate slip off line which countless people have done,
> > even/especially the "hard core" . If you read the trip
> > report/description, you would have read that the trip was
> exploritory
> > only with little/no expectation of completion (expected / planned
> to
> > walk trail). The trip was not made to seek "challanging terrain"
> (I
> > avoid trips (expecially with my daughter) of this sort because it
> has
> > been my experience that this is when most trail damge occours and
> I
> > try to avoid situations which would but me or others in danger),
> but
> > to enjoy the incredibly scenic views.
> > Although trail damage is inexcusable and should never be
> encouraged
> > or condoned, I do take particular offence to anyone (sierra club
> or
> > hard core 4wheeler, no matter how involved they may be) who
wishes
> to
> > claim sole access to any area. To answer your points: NASCAR is
> > privatly owned and operated and can make its own rules. Although
> > there are very strict regulations for driving on the Autobahn
> (alle
> > Deutsche Strasse),improper tire rating does not (unless a new law
> is
> > in effect since my last visit) cause the loss of license for a
> year.
> >
> > As for forbiding any type of rock stacking because of safety
> (whether
> > rocks were replaced or not), because it is part of nearly every
> > competition,this would eliminate most every competion held.
> > As your use safety to further your agenda (god forbid someone
> should
> > break a finger), vehicles should be banned if not properly fitted
> > with proper safety equipment. Much more important than the fear
> of
> > broken fingers should be that of broken heads. Note:in every
> picture
> > in my gallery I and my childeren and anyone ever allowed in my
> Jeep
> > wear 4pt harnesses under a Randy Ellis modified 6pt cage (yes
that
> is
> > a picture of me and my friends 20years ago, before people
> > seeking "more challenging trails" cut the landscape to shreds and
> > when the Four Peaks trails could be counted) .
> > The blanket statent ...."If you can't complete...without
> stacking...
> > DONT BELONG THERE" implicitly includes situations which require a
> > winch (as these situations are usually much more severe). This
> would
> > mean everyone who ever stacked or used a winch was where they did
> not
> > belong (wouldn't this include nearly 100% of severE rock
crawlers,
> as
> > I have yet to see a competiion where rocks were not stacked
and/or
> > winches were not used)?
> >
> > You say "It is imperrative theselands remain open to ALL", but it
> is
> > quite clear you wish to control who can or cannot even attempt
> > certain trails. Having a highly equipped vehicle, you (of
course)
> > would be exempt and can, in search of a "challenge" attempt
> anything
> > with or without stacking/winching. Dosen't a "challenge"
> implicitly
> > include the possibilty of the need of assistance? Isn't it
> > EVERYONE'S right to attempt a "challanging" trail?
> >
> > Bottom line IMHO:
> >
> > Pushing your limits (finding trails which provide a challenge) is
> not
> > a sin as long as you stop before exceeding your limits (jeez,
isnt
> > that what I did?). Although making / causing permanant damage is
> > wrong, attempting challenging trails is largely what our sport is
> > about and should be encouraged and ASSISTED by those who have the
> > ability/experience (not bashed and heckled as "jealous wannabees"
> in
> > an effort to keep areas their own private domain).
> >
> > As hard as it has been to see areas I once hiked and hunted
> covered
> > with houses, NO ONE (sierra club or hard core specialist) has the
> > right to tell ANYONE (who treats the enviroment with safety and
> > respect) where they can or cannot go.
> >
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <my1stjeep@e...> wrote:
> > > Everyone has an opinion. You say you want to keep it open and
we
> > > ahve repeatedly been told rock stacking, creating by passes
> etc...
> > > due cause trail closures, so why would you go into a trail
> knowing
> > > either the vehicle or the driver cannot do it without rock
> stacking?
> > >
> > > Yes sometimes it is needed to get by, but just as you talk
about
> > > preservation, they should be removed, it is a insane to even
> think
> > > paving would keep the trails open. If paved tails are what
will
> be
> > > open then your logic would serve that not matter how many want
> the
> > > harder trails open we can kiss them good bye, they will close
> them
> > > and tell us the current paved trails are enough, is that your
> > goal?
> > > Do you want these trails closed so we can run everything in 2wd?
> > >
> > > I am at a loss for words for you to be calling anyone names,
> > > especially from the person I see on every adgenda, every
> meeting,
> > at
> > > every event to keep them open. She is simply reminding you
> > (albight
> > > passionately) of some of the reasons our trails are closed and
> > since
> > > you started off by implying rock stacking would be going on by
> > > asking for attendees to bring a stong back, you touched of a
> nerve
> > > in alot of people here. Setting expectations to newcomers to
> our
> > > sport that going into a trail that your vehicle or the driver
> > cannot
> > > handle, but don't worry just stack rocks is not a very good way
> to
> > > start things off. It sets a bad example for newcomers not to
> > > mention that someone could get hurt driving a pretty stock rig
> > > through something like Sandy Beach or Anaconda or Anihilator
> or ???
> > > just cause they have the attitude they can stack their way out.
> > >
> > > I hope that you are aware of the land agencies thoughts on
this,
> > but
> > > from your message and thoughts of what they deem damage I fear
> you
> > > do not. Before you go off on someone calling them names you
> might
> > > want to be sure of the facts that the items you are talking
> about
> > > are deemed damage, tire marks are not. I also hope you remove
> the
> > > rocks when you are done, you did not say either way, but I will
> > give
> > > you the benefit of the doubt.
> > >
> > > Keep in mind you should only do what it is safe for your
vehicle
> to
> > > do, and a driver can make up for alot. However someone who
> wants
> > to
> > > run NASCAR, but cannot afford all the equipment (or in our case
> a
> > > full blown rock crawling rig) will be stopped from running the
> > race,
> > > if you drive the Autobaughn and get caught with tires that
don't
> > > match the speed rating for how fast you were going you lose
your
> > > license to drive period, it is called safety. Stacking rocks
> can
> > > lead to broken fingers, pulled muscles, unearthed scorpions or
> > other
> > > creatures that can sting or bite you, the rocks can shift while
> you
> > > go over them and could even cause you to roll over and while
> > > sometimes is it necessary as a last resort we should not go
into
> a
> > > trail with the though process that we are going to do it just
to
> > get
> > > through it. It is not safe and it is not a preserving
mentality.
> > >
> > > JMO
> > >
> > > Chris
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
-
> ---
> > -
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "olneyjeeps" <olneyjeeps@y...>
> wrote:
> > > > Thank you for showing your true colors - self ritcous pompus
> > > > controlling wannabe get to tell everyone where they can or
> cannot
> > > go
> > > > based on how you thought it would possibly change the run;
> > > > As you may have been deaf and blind at the last blm meeting.
I
> > and
> > > my
> > > > family enjoy exploring what shrinking habatat there is. They
> > > should
> > > > not be limited to the hiking "elite". Nor should they be
> limited
> > > to
> > > > the "extreeme four wheeler" My position is that these lands
> must
> > > > remain open (gonna lose some friende here) even if it has to
> be
> > > > paved.
> > > >
> > > > No One should have sole right to the beauty / solitude /
> > > challange.
> > > > This or any canyon is not for any one group. The more people
> > that
> > > > see theese trails, the more people will want to preserve it.
> The
> > > > trail is a trail, not your private playground. Not too long
> ago
> > > your
> > > > house was bare desart, get rid of the stacking there so you
> may
> > > have
> > > > your own private playground.
> > > > AlthoughI do not advocate wheel spinning, rockstatking, or
> > > winching
> > > > thry do have their place in rare occasions, It is imperrative
> > > these
> > > > lands remain open to ALL (forgive me for yelling) and not
just
> > the
> > > > owners of fab shops creating vehicles by whose standards
leave
> > 90%
> > > of
> > > > the club "not worthy" / wannabees (how many of you that dont'
> > have
> > > > 60's front and rear,4link airlockers, 44's etc realized you
> were
> > > just
> > > > labeled a wanabe, and therefore, by Ms. McCullen's judgement
> > owing
> > > > gratitude for being allowed to travel the trails she and her
> sons
> > > no
> > > > longer consider "challanging"? Maybe we should rent heavy
> > > equipment
> > > > and go in and tear up the trails so that no one (except
Sandy
> > and
> > > > her sons) can enjoy.
> > > >
> > > > In response to your comment referring to my comment
as "sounds
> > > like
> > > > like the green eye of
> > > > > jealousy to me." Give me a break. There is not a speck
> > > > (possesions, ability or otherwise) that you and your world
> > > traveled
> > > > multi lingual college educated kids and their "toys" have
that
> I
> > > > would waste on starting a fire. My girls love spending time
> with
> > > me
> > > > exploring in the Jeeps. I need nothing more to garner their
> full
> > > > love and devotion.
> > > >
> > > > Public land is public land. Just as I fight to keep the
> Sierra
> > > Club
> > > > from blocking off land for a limited few, I resent Sandy and
> > > others
> > > > for claiming that they have exclusive right to any area.
> > > >
> > > > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee McCullen"
> <mccullen@c...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > OK........... my apologies in the use of "YOU". It was
> meant
> > > to be
> > > > > directed at anyone that is into a trail they don't
> belong.....
> > > or
> > > > those that
> > > > > seem to believe PAVING is simply a way to allow them to go
> > where
> > > > they
> > > > > please! Yes, caps indicate yelling or very strong
> suggestion
> > > and
> > > > that is
> > > > > exactly what I meant. I agree I was not there and I do
> > > appreciate
> > > > the fact
> > > > > he did turn around, but he also slams the extreme wheeler
> and
> > > > indicated he
> > > > > had as much right on those trails as anyone else. NO he
> does
> > > > not.........
> > > > > not if it means the extreme wheeler has to lose any/all
> > > challenge
> > > > they have
> > > > > because someone wants to "do what the big guys do". I'm so
> > > tired
> > > > of this
> > > > > attitude and mentality. Just because someone builds a
> vehicle
> > > > capable of
> > > > > doing almost anything does not make them "the big guy",
> > > or "GOD",
> > > > or anyone
> > > > > any different than you, I or the first time 4-wheeler.
> > > > >
> > > > > There were comments comparing the "damage" the buggies or
> rock
> > > > crawlers do
> > > > > ............ like leaving "semi-permanent marks" on the
> rocks.
> > > Or
> > > > climbing
> > > > > "near vertical obstacles"........ sounds like like the
> green
> > > eye of
> > > > > jealousy to me. This is not damage........ paving or
> making
> > by-
> > > > passes IS
> > > > > damage and abuse and these actions are what will close ALL
> our
> > > > trails.
> > > > > ......
> > > > >
> > > > > [As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the
> semi
> > > > > > >>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to
> > > climb
> > > > near
> > > > > > >>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or
anyone's
> > > right
> > > > to
> > > > > > >>>> say where someone does or does not belong]
> > > > >
> > > > > This comes across to me as "I'll do as I
> please"........ "it's
> > > my
> > > > right to
> > > > > stack rocks as long as the day is long", "I don't do any
> more
> > > > damage than
> > > > > the "rock scratchers" yada yada yada!! YES, it is MY RIGHT
> if
> > > > these kinds
> > > > > of actions lose the only challenge I have within my sport!
> > YES,
> > > I
> > > > AM
> > > > > YELLING Chris............... there are way too many
> > > recreationists
> > > > out
> > > > > there that simply do NOT get the picture. Too many ATV's
> tear
> > > > across
> > > > > country, the 4-wheelers enter trails they are not capable
of
> > > doing,
> > > > many
> > > > > motorcycles go way to fast............... and we can't
seem
> to
> > > > understand
> > > > > "WHY" we're losing everything. The agencies simply do not
> want
> > > to
> > > > deal with
> > > > > the headaches of the recreationists not being
> > > responsible. .....
> > > > Before
> > > > > you go off again, I'm not saying or claiming this Steve
> > was "not"
> > > > > responsible but his attitude is certainly in the grey
area...
> > > > > There are LARGE groups of agency planners that feel
> the "graded
> > > > gravel roads
> > > > > should be enough for us". There are also LARGE numbers of
> new
> > > > personnel
> > > > > joining the land management agencies and believe
> > > me.............,
> > > > for the
> > > > > most part, they are GREEN!!! Everyone seems to be
> > into "saving"
> > > > something.
> > > > > Our battles will not be getting easier and abuse such as
> rock
> > > > paving and
> > > > > by-passes are the first issues to be held over us. We lost
> > > > Jawbreaker
> > > > > because of "rock paving"........ had vehicles going
> > > > through "DErocked" the
> > > > > obstacle after getting through the Tucson BLM wouldn't have
> had
> > > > anything to
> > > > > present to the courts to show "abuse". Game & Fish are no
> > > better.
> > > > If it's
> > > > > not wildlife habitat destruction, it's "messing up the
> > > watershed"
> > > > of the
> > > > > area or rock stacking is showing to alter the flow because
> it
> > > tends
> > > > to hold
> > > > > silt or gravel instead of allowing it to wash down stream
> etc
> > etc
> > > > > etc............. there's desert tortoise, or a lizard, or
> > > beetle
> > > > or a WEED.
> > > > > They'll use anything they can to shut out OHV
> > > recreation.........
> > > > WHY do we
> > > > > insist on hurting ourselves!!!?
> > > > >
> > > > > I am rambling and will continue to do so until ALL of my
> fellow
> > > 4-
> > > > wheelers
> > > > > finally understand that we each have our own level of
> wheeling
> > > and
> > > > to mess
> > > > > us someone elses challenge just to prove a point, will shut
> us
> > > all
> > > > down.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sandee
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 5:40 PM
> > > > > > To: Sandee McCullen
> > > > > > Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I quote you:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "If you cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with
> > rocks
> > > to
> > > > > > enable you to get through or across an obstacle........
> YOU
> > > DON'T
> > > > > > BELONG THERE!!"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The use of "you" and the caps (internet yelling) make it
> look
> > > > like it
> > > > > > was directed to him. Sorry if I misinterpreted this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your points are all correct, but it is incorrect to use
> them
> > > > against
> > > > > > Steve in this case, since we were not there and have no
> idea
> > > in
> > > > what
> > > > > > condition he left the trail.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If we are going to preach, we should do it in a general
> > > manner.
> > > > It is
> > > > > > unfair to use someone else's post about a run to further
> our
> > > > ideas,
> > > > > > even if they are good ideas. To some, it will seem like
we
> > are
> > > > bashing
> > > > > > the post.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I read Steve's post and thought it was very responsible
> that
> > > they
> > > > did
> > > > > > what they did. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that
> they
> > > > unstacked
> > > > > > the rock. Remember, innocent until proven guilty works in
> may
> > > ways
> > > > > > besides in a court of law, especially with friends and
> fellow
> > > > wheelers.
> > > > > > It was pointed out to me in an email from another member
> that
> > > his
> > > > > > also indicated that they might stack rocks if they go
> back.
> > > > Again, I
> > > > > > give him the benefit of the doubt that they will unstack
> them
> > > as
> > > > well.
> > > > > > If they do not, then I will lose and my trust of him will
> be
> > > lost.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Remember (and this is my final point since I don't want
> this
> > > to
> > > > grow in
> > > > > > to more than it has), if we were to never wheel on trails
> > that
> > > > there is
> > > > > > the potential that we will have to stack rocks, most of
us
> > > would
> > > > never
> > > > > > leave the graded dirt road. That would be a shame.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Chris
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 03:45 PM, Sandee
> McCullen
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Chris, I don't think anyone "jumped down anyones
> > > > throat".........
> > > > > > > simply
> > > > > > > stated "rock paving" is ruining our extreme trails and
> is
> > > > hurting us
> > > > > > > all.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have NO PROBLEM with turning around when finding a
> trail
> > > is
> > > > too
> > > > > > > tough but
> > > > > > > you and I both KNOW that there are waaaaaay too many
> > > vehicles
> > > > going
> > > > > > > into
> > > > > > > trails they KNOW they are not equipped to do without
> > rocking
> > > or
> > > > making
> > > > > > > by-passes! I hear over and over again....... "no
> problem,
> > > > we'll 'pull
> > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > through'". WHY???? Isn't actually "driving to the
> > > individual
> > > > > > > challenge"
> > > > > > > what we're suppose to be about?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I didn't pretend to "be there" and I didn't accuse
> anyone of
> > > > > > > "semi-permanent" damage. Nor did I accuse the rock
> > crawlers
> > > of
> > > > being
> > > > > > > "GODS". My message was to EVERYONE that are doing
> trails
> > > above
> > > > their
> > > > > > > ability, rock paving or making by-passes to get through
> to
> > > stay
> > > > within
> > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > own challenge limitations. These actions WILL affect
> ALL
> > of
> > > us
> > > > in the
> > > > > > > near
> > > > > > > future and it won't be what anyone wants to hear. This
> > kind
> > > of
> > > > abuse
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > closing trails across the country. The agencies are
> having
> > > a
> > > > tough
> > > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > time understanding the "challenge" of extreme 4-
> wheeling,
> > > but
> > > > when all
> > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > see is the rock paving, by-passes, oil spills, and
> > > vegetation
> > > > winched
> > > > > > > out of
> > > > > > > the ground they simply declare "abuse and resource
> damage"
> > > and
> > > > close
> > > > > > > everything. It's going to take ALL of us to truly show
> > > > RESPONSIBLE
> > > > > > > use of
> > > > > > > our recreation trails system................
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The responses from Todd and myself simply stated "to
> stay
> > on
> > > > trails
> > > > > > > within
> > > > > > > individual vehicle and/or driver
> > capabilities".............
> > > or
> > > > > > > "UNSTACK if
> > > > > > > the need for rocks is called for".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sandee
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > >> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> > > > > > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 3:28 PM
> > > > > > >> To: Sandee McCullen
> > > > > > >> Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking
> rocks
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Sandy and Todd, um, did either of you read his run
> > > description?
> > > > > > >> They turned around after deciding they were beyond
> their
> > > > capabilities.
> > > > > > >> The rock stacking was done to get back out. No
lectures
> > > should
> > > > be
> > > > > > >> given
> > > > > > >> because they had no idea what the trail ahead was like.
> > > > > > >> In my opinion, they did the sensible thing. They gave
> it a
> > > try
> > > > (aren't
> > > > > > >> we all allowed to do this, it being public land and
> all?)
> > > and
> > > > called
> > > > > > >> it
> > > > > > >> quits when it became apparent that it was beyond their
> > > > capabilities.
> > > > > > >> So
> > > > > > >> a few rocks were stacked to get them back out. At
least
> > > they
> > > > didn't
> > > > > > >> just continue on and stack the entire trail as others
> > > probably
> > > > would
> > > > > > >> have. Besides, he never said he didn't unstack them.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Everyone, please don't be so quick to jump down the
> other
> > > > guys/girls
> > > > > > >> throat, ESPECIALLY if you weren't there or do not know
> all
> > > the
> > > > facts.
> > > > > > >> When you make assumptions without facts, you just make
> > > > yourself look
> > > > > > >> bad and create ill will in the group. We have enough
> > > bickering
> > > > here
> > > > > > >> lately. Lets work to save our trails, not bicker about
> who
> > > can
> > > > play
> > > > > > >> where.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Just my $.02
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Chris
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 02:57 PM, Sandee
> > McCullen
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing
> > trails
> > > > via ROCK
> > > > > > >>> PAVING
> > > > > > >>> needs to stop.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line
> is
> > > > simply: If
> > > > > > >>> you
> > > > > > >>> cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with
rocks
> to
> > > > enable you
> > > > > > >>> to get
> > > > > > >>> through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T
> BELONG
> > > > THERE!! The
> > > > > > >>> "semi
> > > > > > >>> permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do
> > > > with "ruining a good
> > > > > > >>> trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of
> paving
> > is
> > > > what is
> > > > > > >>> "ruining
> > > > > > >>> the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now
> and
> > > then
> > > > to
> > > > > > >>> "help"
> > > > > > >>> is
> > > > > > >>> done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy
> would
> > > > have you
> > > > > > >>> REMOVE
> > > > > > >>> the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of
> the
> > > > obstacle.
> > > > > > >>> There
> > > > > > >>> are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge"
for
> > > every
> > > > level of
> > > > > > >>> 4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the
extreme
> > > > driver/vehicle
> > > > > > >>> is
> > > > > > >>> what is causing the problems and is what is in
> discussion
> > > > from your
> > > > > > >>> message.
> > > > > > >>> This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's
ALL
> of
> > > > us.........
> > > > > > >>> respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for
> all.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock
> > > crawling
> > > > with
> > > > > > >>> no,
> > > > > > >>> or
> > > > > > >>> very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS!
> All
> > > > they're
> > > > > > >>> asking is
> > > > > > >>> the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do
> > > > whatever they
> > > > > > >>> wish
> > > > > > >>> STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are
> not
> > > > happy about
> > > > > > >>> "rock
> > > > > > >>> paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the
> > watershed
> > > or
> > > > natural
> > > > > > >>> layout
> > > > > > >>> of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother
Nature
> > > does a
> > > > good
> > > > > > >>> job
> > > > > > >>> of
> > > > > > >>> keeping trails natural but some of the
stacking/paving
> > > > happening
> > > > > > >>> today
> > > > > > >>> is
> > > > > > >>> well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
> > > > > > >>> [FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks
in
> > the
> > > > bottom of
> > > > > > >>> a
> > > > > > >>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand
> > cubic
> > > > feet per
> > > > > > >>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another
good
> > > > trail."] This
> > > > > > >>>> may
> > > > > > >>> not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good
> > > trail"
> > > > but it
> > > > > > >>> is
> > > > > > >>> if
> > > > > > >>> YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother
> > > Nature
> > > > may
> > > > > > >>> make a
> > > > > > >>> trail easier or harder but that should be left to
> nature
> > > NOT
> > > > YOU or
> > > > > > >>> other
> > > > > > >>> want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have
> been
> > > > wheel'n
> > > > > > >>> Arizona and
> > > > > > >>> California since BEFORE the early 70's. For whatever
> > > that's
> > > > > > >>> worth??????
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Again, if you cannot traverse a trail or obstacle
with
> > > your
> > > > vehicle,
> > > > > > >>> winch,
> > > > > > >>> tires and/or ability and have to rock PAVE.......
You
> > > don't
> > > > belong
> > > > > > >>> there.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Sandee
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > >>>> From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
> > > > > > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:27 PM
> > > > > > >>>> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > >>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking
rocks
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it
> > appears
> > > > you would
> > > > > > >>>> like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
> > > > > > >>>> As it appears you coulden't read the first time from
> > your
> > > > throne:
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> 1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a
reasonable /
> > > > responsible
> > > > > > >>>> driver) because I had determined that (at that time)
> I
> > > was
> > > > not
> > > > > > >>>> properly equiped and did not have the resources if I
> > were
> > > to
> > > > get
> > > > > > >>>> into
> > > > > > >>>> trouble.
> > > > > > >>>> 2) I did recommend / advise against attempting
> without
> > > lots
> > > > of
> > > > > > >>>> clearance.
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
> > > > > > >>>> "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
> > > > > > >>>> As long as it is not causing long term damage (such
> as
> > > the
> > > > semi
> > > > > > >>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to
> > > climb
> > > > near
> > > > > > >>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or
anyone's
> > > right
> > > > to
> > > > > > >>>> say where someone does or does not belong (I don't
> > recall
> > > > seeing you
> > > > > > >>>> at the last BLM meeting either)
> > > > > > >>>> FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in
> the
> > > > bottom of a
> > > > > > >>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand
> > cubic
> > > > feet per
> > > > > > >>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another
good
> > > trail."
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it,
> you
> > do
> > > > not belong
> > > > > > >>>> on that trail."
> > > > > > >>>> I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted
(which
> > I'm
> > > > sure you
> > > > > > >>>> always use before spinning all four gouging and
> spiting
> > > rock
> > > > and
> > > > > > >>>> admitting lack of ability to move unassisted).
Let's
> > > compare
> > > > > > >>>> possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash
> vs.
> > > tire
> > > > scars on
> > > > > > >>>> vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng
> attended
> > > > several
> > > > > > >>>> competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never
stacked
> a
> > > rock
> > > > or two
> > > > > > >>>> for you, right?
> > > > > > >>>> By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling /
hiking
> in
> > > > this area
> > > > > > >>>> since the early 70's; you?
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> See you at the next BLM meeting
> > > > > > >>>> Steve
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
> > > > > > >>>>> This trail has been run by experienced drivers and
> rigs
> > > > equipped to
> > > > > > >>>> do it,
> > > > > > >>>>> without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to
> stack
> > > > rocks 20
> > > > > > >>>> yards into
> > > > > > >>>>> it, you do not belong on that trail.
> > > > > > >>>>> There are plenty of trails out there for everyones
> > level.
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Todd
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> Earlier this year, after talking with many people
> and
> > > > surveying
> > > > > > >>>>> from
> > > > > > >>>>>> the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
> > > > > > >>>>>> The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is
> > really
> > > > really
> > > > > > >>>>> really
> > > > > > >>>>>> nasty. Because the other members of the group did
> not
> > > > want to go
> > > > > > >>>> further,
> > > > > > >>>>>> I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only
> the
> > > first
> > > > 20-30
> > > > > > >>>> yards; it
> > > > > > >>>>>> took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of
> > > stacking+
> > > > body
> > > > > > >>>> damage to
> > > > > > >>>>>> get back out.
> > > > > > >>>>>> I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint
> > > hint)
> > > > but
> > > > > > >>>>> required
> > > > > > >>>>>> equipment would be:
> > > > > > >>>>>> minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage
> probable)
> > > > > > >>>>>> Front and rear lockers
> > > > > > >>>>>> winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
> > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>> Call if interested
> > > > > > >>>>>> Steve Olney
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > >>>>>
> > > >
> __________________________________________________ _______________
> > > > > > >>>>> From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite
> > > music
> > > > is always
> > > > > > >>>> playing
> > > > > > >>>>> on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month
FREE!
> > > > > > >>>>> http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > > > >>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > > > >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
94373 From: Chris <my1stjeep@e...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:04am
Subject: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Dammit, I saw it flinch so I kicked it again... I know it
twitched!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Chris
---------------------------------------------------------------------
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, NVRSTUKXJ@a... wrote:
> I've an idea....at the BBQ next month, someone bring a dead horse
and Chris and onley can have a showdown.....last man kicking the
dead horse wins.....and as an added bonus....meat for the
barby...... :-)
94374 From: Dave Peterson <gonzodave@y...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:05am
Subject: Dead horses, rocks, and BBQs
If T.J. brings all the rocks he's going to have, then we could dig a big
pit, heat the rocks up and cook the horse on them.
Gonzo
--- NVRSTUKXJ@a... wrote:
> I've an idea....at the BBQ next month, someone bring a dead horse and
> Chris and onley can have a showdown.....last man kicking the dead horse
> wins.....and as an added bonus....meat for the barby...... :-)
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
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94375 From: <NVRSTUKXJ@a...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:13am
Subject: Re: Dead horses, rocks, and BBQs
COOL.....dead horse luau.....
94376 From: olneyjeeps <olneyjeeps@y...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:16am
Subject: Re: Dead horses, rocks, and BBQs
http://www.cbc.ca/news/features/horse_meat_industry.html
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, NVRSTUKXJ@a... wrote:
> COOL.....dead horse luau.....
94377 From: Bob Jacques <bjacques@m...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:08am
Subject: Freeway Opening Display
If I may be so bold as to interrupt all this "rock-stacking / horse-kicking"
chatter, I would like to give some info on the display for Saturday morning.
Starting on Sat. morning at 6:00am, display vehicles, our jeeps, will be
allowed to use the loop 202entrance ramp at McClintock south of Chandler
Blvd. Chandler PD will be stationed there to direct display vehicles onto
the Freeway. At 7:30 am the ramp will be closed and you will have to enter
as a spectator at the Kyrene ramp. This means that you will not be able to
get your jeep onto the display side of the freeway.. In other words, "Make
sure the display vehicles arrive prior to 7:30 so they will not be turned
away at the McClintock On ramp....VERY IMPORTANT !! All displays will be on
the westbound lanes and all non display parking will be on the east bound
lanes. Display vehicles will not be allowed to leave until the end of the
show at 12:00 noon, however I can promise you that it will look like a
freeway at 12:01, OK, pun intended. just don't step into the HOV lane..
For those of you coming from far corners of the Valley, It would be best to
come down loop 101 to Chandler Blvd, exit and head west to McClintock, (past
the new Chandler Fashion Mall). Turn South on McClintock to the new freeway
and follow the police instruction s for display Vehicles, (previous
paragraph).
Here is a list of who's bringing what, major stuff:
Troy, VCR, Cables, Ice chest full of Soda (YEAAAH!!)
Tim, TV and Hood, Cables
Bob, banner, Tapes, Generator and ext cord, R/C Jeeps, Handouts from
Sandee
Matt, More handouts, Cleanup fliers
Tom, Water, Baby
Everyone, Chairs, anything else you want to..
Only thing we haven't covered is if someone more computer literate than me
can generate some cards with the logo and website addy on them.... PLEASE...
Thanks for all the help, If everyone comes thru as they committed they
would, we will have a very successful display... I will arrive around 6:45,
my cell # is 480-226-6127 and I will have channel 4 on the CB turned on for
you once you get close... Wear your red shirts, bring what you said you
would, We'll see you there..
Any questions please call.. Thx, Bob J.
OK, Back to Rock Kicking and Horse Stacking !!
94378 From: olneyjeeps <olneyjeeps@y...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:18am
Subject: Re: Dead horses, rocks, and BBQs
Anyone got a really big pot?
http://www.salon.com/people/feature/2002/03/05/re