blooddrive
01-09-2004, 05:15 AM
94344-94368
94344 From: Michael Peck <map6260@h...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:13pm
Subject: Re: Re: CJ7 Soft Doors
I have a pair of black full as well as a pair of black half CJ-7 / YJ soft
doors. Give me a call at 602-570-0713 and we can set up some time
when you could come by to see them.
A silent member.....
Michael Peck
>From: Dave Peterson <gonzodave@y...>
>To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: CJ7 Soft Doors
>Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:48:05 -0800 (PST)
>
>The door openings between a CJ-5 and a CJ-7 are completely different. I
>think CJ-7 and YJ doors are interchangeable, though.
>
>Gonzo
>
>--- Matt OBrien <makaioo@y...> wrote:
> > I've got a pair of CJ-5 soft doors but with the curved bottom I think
> > they'd leave a large gap at the bottom/rear. Still, you're welcome to
> > come by and try them on for size and their yours if you want them. I
> > was going to chop them down for half-doors but don't really need to
> > anymore.
> >
> > Call my cell at 480-239-4182 or just drop by - I'm here all day every
> > day during the week.
> >
> > 3472 E. Geronimo Ct.
> > Gilbert
> >
> > Matt
> > K7MTO
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Kearney" <Joe-CJ7@j...> wrote:
> > > Need some help finding soft doors for a CJ7 (I think the CJ5 doors
> > will work
> > > also).
> > > Anybody know where I can get a used set?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
>http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
__________________________________________________ _______________
Frustrated with dial-up? Get high-speed for as low as $26.95.
https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
94345 From: Michael Peck <map6260@h...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:32pm
Subject: RE: Re: CJ7 Soft Doors
I also have both sets of latches, the slides for your CJ and the paddles
for a YJ. It's up to you!
map6260
>From: "Joe-CJ7" <Joe-CJ7@j...>
>To: "Dave Peterson" <gonzodave@y...>,<az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: CJ7 Soft Doors
>Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:52:56 -0700
>
>So you do not think they will work?
>
>I am completely OK with a gap at the bottom. The big thing is if they
>will latch closed.
>
>Joe Kearney
>Joe-CJ7@J...
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dave Peterson [mailto:gonzodave@y...]
>Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 3:48 PM
>To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: CJ7 Soft Doors
>
>The door openings between a CJ-5 and a CJ-7 are completely different. I
>think CJ-7 and YJ doors are interchangeable, though.
>
>Gonzo
>
>--- Matt OBrien <makaioo@y...> wrote:
> > I've got a pair of CJ-5 soft doors but with the curved bottom I think
> > they'd leave a large gap at the bottom/rear. Still, you're welcome to
> > come by and try them on for size and their yours if you want them. I
> > was going to chop them down for half-doors but don't really need to
> > anymore.
> >
> > Call my cell at 480-239-4182 or just drop by - I'm here all day every
> > day during the week.
> >
> > 3472 E. Geronimo Ct.
> > Gilbert
> >
> > Matt
> > K7MTO
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Kearney" <Joe-CJ7@j...> wrote:
> > > Need some help finding soft doors for a CJ7 (I think the CJ5 doors
> > will work
> > > also).
> > > Anybody know where I can get a used set?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
>http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
__________________________________________________ _______________
Compare high-speed Internet plans, starting at $26.95.
https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.)
94346 From: olneyjeeps <olneyjeeps@y...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:51pm
Subject: Re: doors; not rocks, paving,stacking or anything nearly related or resembeling
still trying to figure if you received my email explaining difference
in doors (god, please dont jump on me for stacking emails.. I can't
find the unstack button)
what I was referring to (curved/square) was the upper rear corner;
the "top of the line" soft tops by bestop have "rounded" upper rear
corners (resemble but do not replace hard dooors)
Kayline / Factory (usually dealer installed) tops have
distinctly "squared" upper rear corners
I tried to email you a pic (might have gone to wrong Joe) of example
of Bestop door; for pics, easiest route was: JCWitney.com
select doors (not rock stacking kit)
page through pics of doors to see variations of which I was referring
Back to additional question: do you currently have soft top/what
brand/model is it?
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Joe-CJ7" <Joe-CJ7@j...> wrote:
> I do not know and I am sorry I don't.
>
>
>
> Does anyone else know which ones I might need?
>
>
>
>
>
> Joe Kearney
>
> Joe-CJ7@J...
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve olney [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 4:20 PM
> To: Joe-CJ7
> Subject: RE: doors
>
>
>
> square or round corner?
>
> _____
>
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
> <http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
94347 From: olneyjeeps <olneyjeeps@y...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 9:00pm
Subject: Re: CJ7 Soft Drs(not in a train or on a plane;not on a house or witha mouse
BTW: it was recently discovered (ok I figure everyone else knew this
already, but it may be news to someone) that CJ/YJ doors will also
fit quite well on a TJ (with exception of latch mechanisim); A
leftover soft door frame may be covered with heavy gauge diamond
plate aluminum (Davis Salvage) to creat nice, low dollar half doors
Just don't let anyone think you may use them to transplant rocks
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Peck" <map6260@h...> wrote:
> I have a pair of black full as well as a pair of black half CJ-7 /
YJ soft
> doors. Give me a call at 602-570-0713 and we can set up some time
> when you could come by to see them.
>
> A silent member.....
>
> Michael Peck
>
>
> >From: Dave Peterson <gonzodave@y...>
> >To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: CJ7 Soft Doors
> >Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:48:05 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >The door openings between a CJ-5 and a CJ-7 are completely
different. I
> >think CJ-7 and YJ doors are interchangeable, though.
> >
> >Gonzo
> >
> >--- Matt OBrien <makaioo@y...> wrote:
> > > I've got a pair of CJ-5 soft doors but with the curved bottom I
think
> > > they'd leave a large gap at the bottom/rear. Still, you're
welcome to
> > > come by and try them on for size and their yours if you want
them. I
> > > was going to chop them down for half-doors but don't really
need to
> > > anymore.
> > >
> > > Call my cell at 480-239-4182 or just drop by - I'm here all day
every
> > > day during the week.
> > >
> > > 3472 E. Geronimo Ct.
> > > Gilbert
> > >
> > > Matt
> > > K7MTO
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Kearney" <Joe-CJ7@j...>
wrote:
> > > > Need some help finding soft doors for a CJ7 (I think the CJ5
doors
> > > will work
> > > > also).
> > > > Anybody know where I can get a used set?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >__________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
> >http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
> __________________________________________________ _______________
> Frustrated with dial-up? Get high-speed for as low as $26.95.
> https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.)
94348 From: <NVRSTUKXJ@a...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:40pm
Subject: Re: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
If I see one more post on this subject, I'm going to go out and take EVERY
rock on EVERY trail and go home......
T.J. Gill
75 CJ5 w/Stuff
90 XJ w/Stuff Too
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
94349 From: CANT W8 <rlpii@q...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:02pm
Subject: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Well, at least the name calling has stopped and the posts are getting
a little lighter and funnier. <smile>
Bob
74 CJ-5
CANT W8
-- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, NVRSTUKXJ@a... wrote:
> If I see one more post on this subject, I'm going to go out and take
EVERY
> rock on EVERY trail and go home......
>
> T.J. Gill
> 75 CJ5 w/Stuff
> 90 XJ w/Stuff Too
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
94350 From: olneyjeeps <olneyjeeps@y...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:05pm
Subject: Re: sandy shorts mail/stacking hamburgers
what subject?
can you describe the rocks ( I think I saw them on the news)?
got stuff?
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, NVRSTUKXJ@a... wrote:
> If I see one more post on this subject, I'm going to go out and
take EVERY
> rock on EVERY trail and go home......
>
> T.J. Gill
> 75 CJ5 w/Stuff
> 90 XJ w/Stuff Too
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
94351 From: Craig Micek <micekc@e...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:08pm
Subject: Re: Moab Trails under assault
I just sent a quick one!
Craig
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hackle" <hackle@q...>
To: "RockRats@yahoogroups. Com" <RockRats@yahoogroups.com>; "Az_Vjc"
<az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 4:53 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Moab Trails under assault
> I got this off JU. I plan to do some letter writing and I suggest everyone
> else follow suit. This area is targeted hard by the anti-recreation
groups.
>
> The Bureau of Land management is responsible for over 3.6 million acres of
> public land in Grand and San Juan counties in Utah. A Resource Management
> Plan (RMP)
> Is the document that guides the Management and policies of the land it
> covers.
> The next RMP will guide decision making in these areas for the next 15
> years.
> By Federal law, the BLM must consider public opinion in the preparation of
> the RMP. That is where we come in.
> The Moab meeting was on OCT. 16th. About fifty people attended, but only 5
> from the Red Rock 4 wheelers. MOST attendees were strong advocates of
either
> severely restricting or totally eliminating all motorized use on BLM land.
> We are clearly outnumbered!
> The good news is that public comments will be taken until Dec 30, 2003.
> We must make our voices heard if we have any hope of having our wishes and
> concerns being considered in the final draft of RMP.
> We need all 4-wheelers to write a few comments of how important continued
> motorized access is to us all in Moab. You can write or email the BLM
office
> www.moabrmp.com or www.monticellormp.com
> Thanks MoabMike
>
>
>
> Arizona RockRats President
> http://www.rockrats.org/
> "I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member" Groucho
> Marx
> Member of the original dirty half dozen.
> http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
94352 From: intertwingled <intertwingled@q...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:23pm
Subject: Re: speaking of camping... Bagdad/Camp Wood area..
Ken Henson wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 01:35 PM, intertwingled wrote:
>
>> Speaking of camping, what kind of camping and offroading opportunities
>> exist around the Burro Creek/Bagdad/Camp Wood area? Also, (this
>> question is I guess for Sandy =)), what exactly is (or maybe used to be
>> now) the Luis Maria Baca Land Grant that is up in that area?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Tony
>>
>
>
> The Grant is totally closed. I worked for the Forest Service in the
> late 60s and the roads were open part of the time, but now it is
> closed to all outsiders.
>
> There are a lot of nice camping sites around the Camp Wood area. The
> school and the fire guard station have been torn down by the Forest
> Service. The old Walnut Creek Ranger Station is now in the hands of
> some group or maybe has something to do with Prescott College, I am
> not sure.
Cool. I have never driven along the (main) road from Bagdad to Camp
Wood. On every map I've seen it looks like it is a maintained road.
Gotta do that soon! =)
>
> There are some cool roads that go from the highway to Bagdad through
> the Yolo Ranch property and on to the Camp Wood area. The roads are
> badly washed out (I have been told) and it would take rock stacking
> (you could read this as trail maintenance) to get a built Jeep
> through. From Prescott out and back is about 150 miles. The No Club
> Club (4*4 Group) as made the run a couple of times in the last two years.
Not to beat on a dead horse, I haven't even done a rated trail myself
(except one time, I think, by mistake, when I was searching for some
nice specimins of marble out near Wenden (I am also an inveterate
rockhound)). So I have never done any rock stacking, or paving, or
whatever you want to call it. But, I think it would be OK to stack some
rocks to get through a particularly bad spot, AS LONG AS YOU UNSTACK
THEM WHEN YOU ARE DONE. It's like packing out your own trash: unstack
anything you have stacked, leave the terrain as you have found it. Like
using a winch or a lever, stacking or paving is a basic human activity,
going back to the Romans and even earlier. Well, that's my two cents and
I think the horse is dead now and can be rendered for glue.
Anyway, I have a lot more work to be done on my 94 YJ before I even
think about taking it on any kind of rated trail.
I might do a weekend excursion through Date Creek, Bagdad, Camp Woods,
Skull Valley, etc, just to get more familiar with the area. Nothing
rated. Will probably end with a tour of Arcosanti. If anyone is
interested I will post this as a run.
Tony
>
> Ken Henson
> Prescott
>
>
>
94353 From: James Rogers <skijunkie@c...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 0:27am
Subject: Just wondering...
If anyone can direct me to a FAQ or good tutorial on rock stacking. TIA
94354 From: intertwingled <intertwingled@q...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 0:43am
Subject: Re: Just wondering...
http://www.rockstacker.com/press/pages/rsrjjn.html
;-)
James Rogers wrote:
>If anyone can direct me to a FAQ or good tutorial on rock stacking. TIA
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
94355 From: RICK BEER <RIKNAZ@M...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 5:31am
Subject: My kill switch works
I am a another victim of society
My Jeep was broken into last night other than window broken stereo taken stuff like that but the kill switch did its job
the strange thing is I heard the noise last night I was out side in 2 sec flat to investigate but seen nothing not even the broken glass nor anyone running or driving away makes me think were the *****hole was It was raining fairly hard at the time when I went out side no shoes or shirt so I did not stay out very long make me kind of wonder if it wasn't raining I could have killed I mean caught the jerk
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
94356 From: Russell Gevarter <gev39@y...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:17am
Subject: Re: [Tech] 93 YJ - VIBRATION OFF THE LINE.....
Bob,
Also consider this: Are your rear springs getting worn out? Sagging may
have caused the pinion angle to change, and acceleration makes it wrap up
even more. I suggest add-a-leafs and some angle shims and a fresh RR
u-joint. OR If they're Rancho just replace them. They have a lifetime
warranty...;)
Russ
94357 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:38am
Subject: [TR] Table Mesa Area - Saturday, January 31, 2004
Hello All,Robert (Roy) Rogers is leading a Table Mesa Area trail run on Saturday, January 31, 2004.<br><br>When: Saterday, 31 Jan 2004, starting at 9AM
Where: WEST SIDE OF I-17 BEYOND THE END OF THE PAVEMENT
Rating: 2.0+
Length: 3 Hours.
CB Channel: 4
TABLE MESA EXIT TO AGUA FRIA RIVER CLEANUP!<br>
<br>
BRING DRINKS, GLOVES, AND FRIENDS.<br>
SHOVELS, RAKES AND SUNBLOCK OPTIONAL.<br>
<br>
ORGANIZED BY THE ARIZONA VIRTUAL JEEP CLUB IN COOPERATION WITH THE BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT (PROVIDING THREE DUMPSTERS), THE ARIZONA STATE LAND DEPARTMENT (PROVIDING A DUMPSTER AND TRASH BAGS), AND THE LAKE PLEASANT REGIONAL PARK AREA (PROVIDING A TRUCK TO HAUL AWAY TIRES).<br>
<br>
IF ANY QUESTIONS, CONTACT ROBERT ROGERS AT:<br>
HOME 623-581-6791 <br>
OR (CELL) 602-828-2543.<br>
There are a number of trails in this area; some of the most difficult trails in Arizona can be found here. There are also moderate and easy trails to be found. There are also ghost towns and old mines to explore in this area.
Here is an incomplete list of trails that may be found.
<a href=http://www.azvjc.org/trails/view.asp?T=9 target=mainpage>Anaconda</a><br>
<a href=http://www.azvjc.org/trails/view.asp?T=8 target=mainpage>Predator</a><br>
<a href=http://www.azvjc.org/trails/view.asp?T=10 target=mainpage>Raw Deal (Lower)</a><br>
<a href=http://www.azvjc.org/trails/view.asp?T=11 target=mainpage>Raw Deal (Upper)</a><br>
<a href=http://www.azvjc.org/trails/view.asp?T=3 target=mainpage>Terminator (Lower)</a><br>
<a href=http://www.azvjc.org/trails/view.asp?T=4 target=mainpage>Terminator (Upper)</a><br>
Tip Top Mine<br>
Gillette<br>
Milk Ranch<br>
http://www.azvjc.org/default.asp?A=1&ID=1090
Click the link above To Add Your Name to the Sign Up List
Thank You,
- The AzVJC Website
94358 From: robert_j_rogers2 <robert.rogers@h...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:48am
Subject: Re: [TR] Table Mesa Area - Saturday, January 31, 2004
It looks as if the AZVJC will get its name put on this one! The
Phoenix Four Wheelers are too busy too handle the Clean-up with
restarting thier Roundup next March. I thought it would look good if
the AZVJC coordinated it this year. THE BLM, ASTLD, and Parks have
all responded so it looks as if the show is on. Sent notices to the
ASA4WDC quarterly meeting to invite ALL of the sanctioned clubs (the
AZVJC logo is at the top of the notice). Will post the notice for
download and printing, so please spread the word.
94359 From: Matt OBrien <makaioo@y...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:58am
Subject: Re: [TR] Table Mesa Area - Saturday, January 31, 2004
The notice would be another good item for display/handout for this
weekends Loop 202 dedication to show folks that we do more than just
climb rocks. Will it be posted in time to have some printed before
Saturday?
Matt
K7MTO
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "robert_j_rogers2"
<robert.rogers@h...> wrote:
> It looks as if the AZVJC will get its name put on this one! The
> Phoenix Four Wheelers are too busy too handle the Clean-up with
> restarting thier Roundup next March. I thought it would look good
if
> the AZVJC coordinated it this year. THE BLM, ASTLD, and Parks have
> all responded so it looks as if the show is on. Sent notices to the
> ASA4WDC quarterly meeting to invite ALL of the sanctioned clubs
(the
> AZVJC logo is at the top of the notice). Will post the notice for
> download and printing, so please spread the word.
94360 From: Marty <robatari@y...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:16am
Subject: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Man and I thought the green peace guys liked to cry
and moan about every thing.You guys are way worse.I
vote we change the name to the Arizona Virtual Jeep
Crybabies.:~)
Marty
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
94361 From: Chris <my1stjeep@e...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:24am
Subject: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Mr. Onley,
I nowhere implied of the items you accuse, I think you need to get
your mind reading abilities checked. I stated it is not a good
idea, I also stated if they are stacked and yes I did agree that
sometimes it is necessary, maybe you should re-read a post before
replying. Please be sure to get your facts straight before you make
accusations that are completely unfounded.
I never stated if you have to stack rock you don't belong there,
mistakes happen and yes you may take a line and slip off and it is
necessary, however my statement was (again get your facts straight)
that if you are going into a trail with the mindset that you are
going to have to (not as an option and I believe I did say it was ok
to use as a last resort, again read the posts before responding)
than you should not being do the trail.
Let us look at the implications of your post which has lead to this
discussion. Some of those facts you left of your response.
Two in particular are what has started this whole thing:
The last time you ran the trail, you were the only one to try it,
you got so far in and decided to turn around, rock stacking had to
take place to get out and you did get body damage. I respect the
fact that you had to stack rocks and you got in over your head, you
made a smart move and retreated, I did give you the benefit of the
doubt while it was never stated, that you remove the rocks that you
stack as to keep from the area becoming paved.
You then asked for attendees on your next trip to have strong backs,
implies you are already assuming that you will be stacking rocks to
get through it as you don't think you can any other way.
Then another comment in a future email (this is the one that finally
got me to reply) was your comment about so be it if we have to pave
them you were all for it. Then I see in the email below you are
against it, which is it??????????
If you had understood my comments (or that mind reading thing you
think you have for implications was working) I said it was ok to
stack rocks if necessary, if you get into a situation where there is
not another option, but going into a trail where you are going to
stack rocks just to make it easy enough is wrong.
I alos think you are mixing up your responses, as I never called
anyone a Jealous Wanna Be, guess reading my post a second time might
have helped you understand who wrote what. Again I ask you to get
your facts straight and if you respond to what I write, keep it that
way, don't bring in other posts information.
Have a nice day and happy wheeling.
Chris "never implied jack about being a perfect wheeler"
---------------------------------------------------------------------
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "olneyjeeps" <olneyjeeps@y...> wrote:
> as a clarification to my previous post (made at 3am due to a local
> power outage)
> I do not, did not and never will condone "paving"
> "you started off by implying rock stacking would be going on by
> > asking for attendees to bring a stong back, you touched of a
nerve
> > in alot of people here. Setting expectations to newcomers to
our
> > sport that going into a trail that your vehicle or the driver
> cannot
> > handle, but don't worry just stack rocks is not a very good way
to
> > start things off"
> Just as a reminder, let's read what I said:
> "required
> > equipment would be:
> > minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
> > Front and rear lockers
> > winch + hooks
> > strong back (rocks are heavy)"
>
> If, in attempting any "challenging trail", you are not prepared /
> able to move a rock or two (as you imply you never have), or use a
> winch, in the event of a missed line (as you imply you never
have),
> then you are bound to get in trouble (as you imply you never
have).
> I never said anyone did not belong there (the last trip,
exploritory
> in nature, included a TJ with 31's... are you saying he was not
> entitled to come as far as he could (yes we pulled him off a rock
he
> misjudged 1.5 miles in) to watch/assist?). To join THIS trip, I
did
> not want anyone who could not "pull his own weight" in the event
of a
> minor mishap. You have the same right to exclude people from trips
> YOU lead, NOT from an area (unless of course you have full
> title/ownership of said area).
>
> The rocks whick were moved (I believe the total count was 3 or 4)
> were to get me off a rock on which I had become high centered
caused
> by unfortunate slip off line which countless people have done,
> even/especially the "hard core" . If you read the trip
> report/description, you would have read that the trip was
exploritory
> only with little/no expectation of completion (expected / planned
to
> walk trail). The trip was not made to seek "challanging terrain"
(I
> avoid trips (expecially with my daughter) of this sort because it
has
> been my experience that this is when most trail damge occours and
I
> try to avoid situations which would but me or others in danger),
but
> to enjoy the incredibly scenic views.
> Although trail damage is inexcusable and should never be
encouraged
> or condoned, I do take particular offence to anyone (sierra club
or
> hard core 4wheeler, no matter how involved they may be) who wishes
to
> claim sole access to any area. To answer your points: NASCAR is
> privatly owned and operated and can make its own rules. Although
> there are very strict regulations for driving on the Autobahn
(alle
> Deutsche Strasse),improper tire rating does not (unless a new law
is
> in effect since my last visit) cause the loss of license for a
year.
>
> As for forbiding any type of rock stacking because of safety
(whether
> rocks were replaced or not), because it is part of nearly every
> competition,this would eliminate most every competion held.
> As your use safety to further your agenda (god forbid someone
should
> break a finger), vehicles should be banned if not properly fitted
> with proper safety equipment. Much more important than the fear
of
> broken fingers should be that of broken heads. Note:in every
picture
> in my gallery I and my childeren and anyone ever allowed in my
Jeep
> wear 4pt harnesses under a Randy Ellis modified 6pt cage (yes that
is
> a picture of me and my friends 20years ago, before people
> seeking "more challenging trails" cut the landscape to shreds and
> when the Four Peaks trails could be counted) .
> The blanket statent ...."If you can't complete...without
stacking...
> DONT BELONG THERE" implicitly includes situations which require a
> winch (as these situations are usually much more severe). This
would
> mean everyone who ever stacked or used a winch was where they did
not
> belong (wouldn't this include nearly 100% of severE rock crawlers,
as
> I have yet to see a competiion where rocks were not stacked and/or
> winches were not used)?
>
> You say "It is imperrative theselands remain open to ALL", but it
is
> quite clear you wish to control who can or cannot even attempt
> certain trails. Having a highly equipped vehicle, you (of course)
> would be exempt and can, in search of a "challenge" attempt
anything
> with or without stacking/winching. Dosen't a "challenge"
implicitly
> include the possibilty of the need of assistance? Isn't it
> EVERYONE'S right to attempt a "challanging" trail?
>
> Bottom line IMHO:
>
> Pushing your limits (finding trails which provide a challenge) is
not
> a sin as long as you stop before exceeding your limits (jeez, isnt
> that what I did?). Although making / causing permanant damage is
> wrong, attempting challenging trails is largely what our sport is
> about and should be encouraged and ASSISTED by those who have the
> ability/experience (not bashed and heckled as "jealous wannabees"
in
> an effort to keep areas their own private domain).
>
> As hard as it has been to see areas I once hiked and hunted
covered
> with houses, NO ONE (sierra club or hard core specialist) has the
> right to tell ANYONE (who treats the enviroment with safety and
> respect) where they can or cannot go.
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <my1stjeep@e...> wrote:
> > Everyone has an opinion. You say you want to keep it open and we
> > ahve repeatedly been told rock stacking, creating by passes
etc...
> > due cause trail closures, so why would you go into a trail
knowing
> > either the vehicle or the driver cannot do it without rock
stacking?
> >
> > Yes sometimes it is needed to get by, but just as you talk about
> > preservation, they should be removed, it is a insane to even
think
> > paving would keep the trails open. If paved tails are what will
be
> > open then your logic would serve that not matter how many want
the
> > harder trails open we can kiss them good bye, they will close
them
> > and tell us the current paved trails are enough, is that your
> goal?
> > Do you want these trails closed so we can run everything in 2wd?
> >
> > I am at a loss for words for you to be calling anyone names,
> > especially from the person I see on every adgenda, every
meeting,
> at
> > every event to keep them open. She is simply reminding you
> (albight
> > passionately) of some of the reasons our trails are closed and
> since
> > you started off by implying rock stacking would be going on by
> > asking for attendees to bring a stong back, you touched of a
nerve
> > in alot of people here. Setting expectations to newcomers to
our
> > sport that going into a trail that your vehicle or the driver
> cannot
> > handle, but don't worry just stack rocks is not a very good way
to
> > start things off. It sets a bad example for newcomers not to
> > mention that someone could get hurt driving a pretty stock rig
> > through something like Sandy Beach or Anaconda or Anihilator
or ???
> > just cause they have the attitude they can stack their way out.
> >
> > I hope that you are aware of the land agencies thoughts on this,
> but
> > from your message and thoughts of what they deem damage I fear
you
> > do not. Before you go off on someone calling them names you
might
> > want to be sure of the facts that the items you are talking
about
> > are deemed damage, tire marks are not. I also hope you remove
the
> > rocks when you are done, you did not say either way, but I will
> give
> > you the benefit of the doubt.
> >
> > Keep in mind you should only do what it is safe for your vehicle
to
> > do, and a driver can make up for alot. However someone who
wants
> to
> > run NASCAR, but cannot afford all the equipment (or in our case
a
> > full blown rock crawling rig) will be stopped from running the
> race,
> > if you drive the Autobaughn and get caught with tires that don't
> > match the speed rating for how fast you were going you lose your
> > license to drive period, it is called safety. Stacking rocks
can
> > lead to broken fingers, pulled muscles, unearthed scorpions or
> other
> > creatures that can sting or bite you, the rocks can shift while
you
> > go over them and could even cause you to roll over and while
> > sometimes is it necessary as a last resort we should not go into
a
> > trail with the though process that we are going to do it just to
> get
> > through it. It is not safe and it is not a preserving mentality.
> >
> > JMO
> >
> > Chris
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
---
> -
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "olneyjeeps" <olneyjeeps@y...>
wrote:
> > > Thank you for showing your true colors - self ritcous pompus
> > > controlling wannabe get to tell everyone where they can or
cannot
> > go
> > > based on how you thought it would possibly change the run;
> > > As you may have been deaf and blind at the last blm meeting. I
> and
> > my
> > > family enjoy exploring what shrinking habatat there is. They
> > should
> > > not be limited to the hiking "elite". Nor should they be
limited
> > to
> > > the "extreeme four wheeler" My position is that these lands
must
> > > remain open (gonna lose some friende here) even if it has to
be
> > > paved.
> > >
> > > No One should have sole right to the beauty / solitude /
> > challange.
> > > This or any canyon is not for any one group. The more people
> that
> > > see theese trails, the more people will want to preserve it.
The
> > > trail is a trail, not your private playground. Not too long
ago
> > your
> > > house was bare desart, get rid of the stacking there so you
may
> > have
> > > your own private playground.
> > > AlthoughI do not advocate wheel spinning, rockstatking, or
> > winching
> > > thry do have their place in rare occasions, It is imperrative
> > these
> > > lands remain open to ALL (forgive me for yelling) and not just
> the
> > > owners of fab shops creating vehicles by whose standards leave
> 90%
> > of
> > > the club "not worthy" / wannabees (how many of you that dont'
> have
> > > 60's front and rear,4link airlockers, 44's etc realized you
were
> > just
> > > labeled a wanabe, and therefore, by Ms. McCullen's judgement
> owing
> > > gratitude for being allowed to travel the trails she and her
sons
> > no
> > > longer consider "challanging"? Maybe we should rent heavy
> > equipment
> > > and go in and tear up the trails so that no one (except Sandy
> and
> > > her sons) can enjoy.
> > >
> > > In response to your comment referring to my comment as "sounds
> > like
> > > like the green eye of
> > > > jealousy to me." Give me a break. There is not a speck
> > > (possesions, ability or otherwise) that you and your world
> > traveled
> > > multi lingual college educated kids and their "toys" have that
I
> > > would waste on starting a fire. My girls love spending time
with
> > me
> > > exploring in the Jeeps. I need nothing more to garner their
full
> > > love and devotion.
> > >
> > > Public land is public land. Just as I fight to keep the
Sierra
> > Club
> > > from blocking off land for a limited few, I resent Sandy and
> > others
> > > for claiming that they have exclusive right to any area.
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee McCullen"
<mccullen@c...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > OK........... my apologies in the use of "YOU". It was
meant
> > to be
> > > > directed at anyone that is into a trail they don't
belong.....
> > or
> > > those that
> > > > seem to believe PAVING is simply a way to allow them to go
> where
> > > they
> > > > please! Yes, caps indicate yelling or very strong
suggestion
> > and
> > > that is
> > > > exactly what I meant. I agree I was not there and I do
> > appreciate
> > > the fact
> > > > he did turn around, but he also slams the extreme wheeler
and
> > > indicated he
> > > > had as much right on those trails as anyone else. NO he
does
> > > not.........
> > > > not if it means the extreme wheeler has to lose any/all
> > challenge
> > > they have
> > > > because someone wants to "do what the big guys do". I'm so
> > tired
> > > of this
> > > > attitude and mentality. Just because someone builds a
vehicle
> > > capable of
> > > > doing almost anything does not make them "the big guy",
> > or "GOD",
> > > or anyone
> > > > any different than you, I or the first time 4-wheeler.
> > > >
> > > > There were comments comparing the "damage" the buggies or
rock
> > > crawlers do
> > > > ............ like leaving "semi-permanent marks" on the
rocks.
> > Or
> > > climbing
> > > > "near vertical obstacles"........ sounds like like the
green
> > eye of
> > > > jealousy to me. This is not damage........ paving or
making
> by-
> > > passes IS
> > > > damage and abuse and these actions are what will close ALL
our
> > > trails.
> > > > ......
> > > >
> > > > [As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the
semi
> > > > > >>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to
> > climb
> > > near
> > > > > >>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's
> > right
> > > to
> > > > > >>>> say where someone does or does not belong]
> > > >
> > > > This comes across to me as "I'll do as I
please"........ "it's
> > my
> > > right to
> > > > stack rocks as long as the day is long", "I don't do any
more
> > > damage than
> > > > the "rock scratchers" yada yada yada!! YES, it is MY RIGHT
if
> > > these kinds
> > > > of actions lose the only challenge I have within my sport!
> YES,
> > I
> > > AM
> > > > YELLING Chris............... there are way too many
> > recreationists
> > > out
> > > > there that simply do NOT get the picture. Too many ATV's
tear
> > > across
> > > > country, the 4-wheelers enter trails they are not capable of
> > doing,
> > > many
> > > > motorcycles go way to fast............... and we can't seem
to
> > > understand
> > > > "WHY" we're losing everything. The agencies simply do not
want
> > to
> > > deal with
> > > > the headaches of the recreationists not being
> > responsible. .....
> > > Before
> > > > you go off again, I'm not saying or claiming this Steve
> was "not"
> > > > responsible but his attitude is certainly in the grey area...
> > > > There are LARGE groups of agency planners that feel
the "graded
> > > gravel roads
> > > > should be enough for us". There are also LARGE numbers of
new
> > > personnel
> > > > joining the land management agencies and believe
> > me.............,
> > > for the
> > > > most part, they are GREEN!!! Everyone seems to be
> into "saving"
> > > something.
> > > > Our battles will not be getting easier and abuse such as
rock
> > > paving and
> > > > by-passes are the first issues to be held over us. We lost
> > > Jawbreaker
> > > > because of "rock paving"........ had vehicles going
> > > through "DErocked" the
> > > > obstacle after getting through the Tucson BLM wouldn't have
had
> > > anything to
> > > > present to the courts to show "abuse". Game & Fish are no
> > better.
> > > If it's
> > > > not wildlife habitat destruction, it's "messing up the
> > watershed"
> > > of the
> > > > area or rock stacking is showing to alter the flow because
it
> > tends
> > > to hold
> > > > silt or gravel instead of allowing it to wash down stream
etc
> etc
> > > > etc............. there's desert tortoise, or a lizard, or
> > beetle
> > > or a WEED.
> > > > They'll use anything they can to shut out OHV
> > recreation.........
> > > WHY do we
> > > > insist on hurting ourselves!!!?
> > > >
> > > > I am rambling and will continue to do so until ALL of my
fellow
> > 4-
> > > wheelers
> > > > finally understand that we each have our own level of
wheeling
> > and
> > > to mess
> > > > us someone elses challenge just to prove a point, will shut
us
> > all
> > > down.
> > > >
> > > > Sandee
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 5:40 PM
> > > > > To: Sandee McCullen
> > > > > Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I quote you:
> > > > >
> > > > > "If you cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with
> rocks
> > to
> > > > > enable you to get through or across an obstacle........
YOU
> > DON'T
> > > > > BELONG THERE!!"
> > > > >
> > > > > The use of "you" and the caps (internet yelling) make it
look
> > > like it
> > > > > was directed to him. Sorry if I misinterpreted this.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your points are all correct, but it is incorrect to use
them
> > > against
> > > > > Steve in this case, since we were not there and have no
idea
> > in
> > > what
> > > > > condition he left the trail.
> > > > >
> > > > > If we are going to preach, we should do it in a general
> > manner.
> > > It is
> > > > > unfair to use someone else's post about a run to further
our
> > > ideas,
> > > > > even if they are good ideas. To some, it will seem like we
> are
> > > bashing
> > > > > the post.
> > > > >
> > > > > I read Steve's post and thought it was very responsible
that
> > they
> > > did
> > > > > what they did. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that
they
> > > unstacked
> > > > > the rock. Remember, innocent until proven guilty works in
may
> > ways
> > > > > besides in a court of law, especially with friends and
fellow
> > > wheelers.
> > > > > It was pointed out to me in an email from another member
that
> > his
> > > email
> > > > > also indicated that they might stack rocks if they go
back.
> > > Again, I
> > > > > give him the benefit of the doubt that they will unstack
them
> > as
> > > well.
> > > > > If they do not, then I will lose and my trust of him will
be
> > lost.
> > > > >
> > > > > Remember (and this is my final point since I don't want
this
> > to
> > > grow in
> > > > > to more than it has), if we were to never wheel on trails
> that
> > > there is
> > > > > the potential that we will have to stack rocks, most of us
> > would
> > > never
> > > > > leave the graded dirt road. That would be a shame.
> > > > >
> > > > > Chris
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 03:45 PM, Sandee
McCullen
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Chris, I don't think anyone "jumped down anyones
> > > throat".........
> > > > > > simply
> > > > > > stated "rock paving" is ruining our extreme trails and
is
> > > hurting us
> > > > > > all.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have NO PROBLEM with turning around when finding a
trail
> > is
> > > too
> > > > > > tough but
> > > > > > you and I both KNOW that there are waaaaaay too many
> > vehicles
> > > going
> > > > > > into
> > > > > > trails they KNOW they are not equipped to do without
> rocking
> > or
> > > making
> > > > > > by-passes! I hear over and over again....... "no
problem,
> > > we'll 'pull
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > through'". WHY???? Isn't actually "driving to the
> > individual
> > > > > > challenge"
> > > > > > what we're suppose to be about?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I didn't pretend to "be there" and I didn't accuse
anyone of
> > > > > > "semi-permanent" damage. Nor did I accuse the rock
> crawlers
> > of
> > > being
> > > > > > "GODS". My message was to EVERYONE that are doing
trails
> > above
> > > their
> > > > > > ability, rock paving or making by-passes to get through
to
> > stay
> > > within
> > > > > > their
> > > > > > own challenge limitations. These actions WILL affect
ALL
> of
> > us
> > > in the
> > > > > > near
> > > > > > future and it won't be what anyone wants to hear. This
> kind
> > of
> > > abuse
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > closing trails across the country. The agencies are
having
> > a
> > > tough
> > > > > > enough
> > > > > > time understanding the "challenge" of extreme 4-
wheeling,
> > but
> > > when all
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > see is the rock paving, by-passes, oil spills, and
> > vegetation
> > > winched
> > > > > > out of
> > > > > > the ground they simply declare "abuse and resource
damage"
> > and
> > > close
> > > > > > everything. It's going to take ALL of us to truly show
> > > RESPONSIBLE
> > > > > > use of
> > > > > > our recreation trails system................
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The responses from Todd and myself simply stated "to
stay
> on
> > > trails
> > > > > > within
> > > > > > individual vehicle and/or driver
> capabilities".............
> > or
> > > > > > "UNSTACK if
> > > > > > the need for rocks is called for".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sandee
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > > >> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> > > > > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 3:28 PM
> > > > > >> To: Sandee McCullen
> > > > > >> Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > >> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking
rocks
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Sandy and Todd, um, did either of you read his run
> > description?
> > > > > >> They turned around after deciding they were beyond
their
> > > capabilities.
> > > > > >> The rock stacking was done to get back out. No lectures
> > should
> > > be
> > > > > >> given
> > > > > >> because they had no idea what the trail ahead was like.
> > > > > >> In my opinion, they did the sensible thing. They gave
it a
> > try
> > > (aren't
> > > > > >> we all allowed to do this, it being public land and
all?)
> > and
> > > called
> > > > > >> it
> > > > > >> quits when it became apparent that it was beyond their
> > > capabilities.
> > > > > >> So
> > > > > >> a few rocks were stacked to get them back out. At least
> > they
> > > didn't
> > > > > >> just continue on and stack the entire trail as others
> > probably
> > > would
> > > > > >> have. Besides, he never said he didn't unstack them.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Everyone, please don't be so quick to jump down the
other
> > > guys/girls
> > > > > >> throat, ESPECIALLY if you weren't there or do not know
all
> > the
> > > facts.
> > > > > >> When you make assumptions without facts, you just make
> > > yourself look
> > > > > >> bad and create ill will in the group. We have enough
> > bickering
> > > here
> > > > > >> lately. Lets work to save our trails, not bicker about
who
> > can
> > > play
> > > > > >> where.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Just my $.02
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Chris
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 02:57 PM, Sandee
> McCullen
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing
> trails
> > > via ROCK
> > > > > >>> PAVING
> > > > > >>> needs to stop.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line
is
> > > simply: If
> > > > > >>> you
> > > > > >>> cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks
to
> > > enable you
> > > > > >>> to get
> > > > > >>> through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T
BELONG
> > > THERE!! The
> > > > > >>> "semi
> > > > > >>> permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do
> > > with "ruining a good
> > > > > >>> trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of
paving
> is
> > > what is
> > > > > >>> "ruining
> > > > > >>> the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now
and
> > then
> > > to
> > > > > >>> "help"
> > > > > >>> is
> > > > > >>> done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy
would
> > > have you
> > > > > >>> REMOVE
> > > > > >>> the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of
the
> > > obstacle.
> > > > > >>> There
> > > > > >>> are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge" for
> > every
> > > level of
> > > > > >>> 4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the extreme
> > > driver/vehicle
> > > > > >>> is
> > > > > >>> what is causing the problems and is what is in
discussion
> > > from your
> > > > > >>> message.
> > > > > >>> This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's ALL
of
> > > us.........
> > > > > >>> respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for
all.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock
> > crawling
> > > with
> > > > > >>> no,
> > > > > >>> or
> > > > > >>> very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS!
All
> > > they're
> > > > > >>> asking is
> > > > > >>> the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do
> > > whatever they
> > > > > >>> wish
> > > > > >>> STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are
not
> > > happy about
> > > > > >>> "rock
> > > > > >>> paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the
> watershed
> > or
> > > natural
> > > > > >>> layout
> > > > > >>> of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother Nature
> > does a
> > > good
> > > > > >>> job
> > > > > >>> of
> > > > > >>> keeping trails natural but some of the stacking/paving
> > > happening
> > > > > >>> today
> > > > > >>> is
> > > > > >>> well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
> > > > > >>> [FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in
> the
> > > bottom of
> > > > > >>> a
> > > > > >>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand
> cubic
> > > feet per
> > > > > >>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good
> > > trail."] This
> > > > > >>>> may
> > > > > >>> not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good
> > trail"
> > > but it
> > > > > >>> is
> > > > > >>> if
> > > > > >>> YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother
> > Nature
> > > may
> > > > > >>> make a
> > > > > >>> trail easier or harder but that should be left to
nature
> > NOT
> > > YOU or
> > > > > >>> other
> > > > > >>> want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have
been
> > > wheel'n
> > > > > >>> Arizona and
> > > > > >>> California since BEFORE the early 70's. For whatever
> > that's
> > > > > >>> worth??????
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Again, if you cannot traverse a trail or obstacle with
> > your
> > > vehicle,
> > > > > >>> winch,
> > > > > >>> tires and/or ability and have to rock PAVE....... You
> > don't
> > > belong
> > > > > >>> there.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Sandee
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > > > >>>> From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
> > > > > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:27 PM
> > > > > >>>> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > >>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it
> appears
> > > you would
> > > > > >>>> like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
> > > > > >>>> As it appears you coulden't read the first time from
> your
> > > throne:
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> 1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a reasonable /
> > > responsible
> > > > > >>>> driver) because I had determined that (at that time)
I
> > was
> > > not
> > > > > >>>> properly equiped and did not have the resources if I
> were
> > to
> > > get
> > > > > >>>> into
> > > > > >>>> trouble.
> > > > > >>>> 2) I did recommend / advise against attempting
without
> > lots
> > > of
> > > > > >>>> clearance.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
> > > > > >>>> "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
> > > > > >>>> As long as it is not causing long term damage (such
as
> > the
> > > semi
> > > > > >>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to
> > climb
> > > near
> > > > > >>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's
> > right
> > > to
> > > > > >>>> say where someone does or does not belong (I don't
> recall
> > > seeing you
> > > > > >>>> at the last BLM meeting either)
> > > > > >>>> FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in
the
> > > bottom of a
> > > > > >>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand
> cubic
> > > feet per
> > > > > >>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good
> > trail."
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it,
you
> do
> > > not belong
> > > > > >>>> on that trail."
> > > > > >>>> I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted (which
> I'm
> > > sure you
> > > > > >>>> always use before spinning all four gouging and
spiting
> > rock
> > > and
> > > > > >>>> admitting lack of ability to move unassisted). Let's
> > compare
> > > > > >>>> possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash
vs.
> > tire
> > > scars on
> > > > > >>>> vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng
attended
> > > several
> > > > > >>>> competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never stacked
a
> > rock
> > > or two
> > > > > >>>> for you, right?
> > > > > >>>> By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling / hiking
in
> > > this area
> > > > > >>>> since the early 70's; you?
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> See you at the next BLM meeting
> > > > > >>>> Steve
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>> Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
> > > > > >>>>> This trail has been run by experienced drivers and
rigs
> > > equipped to
> > > > > >>>> do it,
> > > > > >>>>> without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to
stack
> > > rocks 20
> > > > > >>>> yards into
> > > > > >>>>> it, you do not belong on that trail.
> > > > > >>>>> There are plenty of trails out there for everyones
> level.
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> Todd
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Earlier this year, after talking with many people
and
> > > surveying
> > > > > >>>>> from
> > > > > >>>>>> the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
> > > > > >>>>>> The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is
> really
> > > really
> > > > > >>>>> really
> > > > > >>>>>> nasty. Because the other members of the group did
not
> > > want to go
> > > > > >>>> further,
> > > > > >>>>>> I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only
the
> > first
> > > 20-30
> > > > > >>>> yards; it
> > > > > >>>>>> took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of
> > stacking+
> > > body
> > > > > >>>> damage to
> > > > > >>>>>> get back out.
> > > > > >>>>>> I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint
> > hint)
> > > but
> > > > > >>>>> required
> > > > > >>>>>> equipment would be:
> > > > > >>>>>> minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage
probable)
> > > > > >>>>>> Front and rear lockers
> > > > > >>>>>> winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Call if interested
> > > > > >>>>>> Steve Olney
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
__________________________________________________ _______________
> > > > > >>>>> From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite
> > music
> > > is always
> > > > > >>>> playing
> > > > > >>>>> on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE!
> > > > > >>>>> http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > > >>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > > >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
94362 From: Bob Jacques <bjacques@m...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:17am
Subject: RE: Re: [TR] Table Mesa Area - Saturday, January 31, 200 4
Matt, would you be willing to take the ball and run with it on this one,
Please?? I've gotten some good materials from Sandee for handouts, but
could still use more... Thx, Bob J
-----Original Message-----
From: robert_j_rogers2 [mailto:robert.rogers@h...]
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 7:49 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: [TR] Table Mesa Area - Saturday, January 31, 2004
It looks as if the AZVJC will get its name put on this one! The
Phoenix Four Wheelers are too busy too handle the Clean-up with
restarting thier Roundup next March. I thought it would look good if
the AZVJC coordinated it this year. THE BLM, ASTLD, and Parks have
all responded so it looks as if the show is on. Sent notices to the
ASA4WDC quarterly meeting to invite ALL of the sanctioned clubs (the
AZVJC logo is at the top of the notice). Will post the notice for
download and printing, so please spread the word.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
94363 From: Dave Peterson <gonzodave@y...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:31am
Subject: Re: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Oops... I think this might have been the "one more post" - now T.J. will
have all the rocks at his house.
Gonzo
--- CANT W8 <rlpii@q...> wrote:
> Well, at least the name calling has stopped and the posts are getting
> a little lighter and funnier. <smile>
> Bob
> 74 CJ-5
> CANT W8
>
> -- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, NVRSTUKXJ@a... wrote:
> > If I see one more post on this subject, I'm going to go out and take
> EVERY
> > rock on EVERY trail and go home......
> >
> > T.J. Gill
> > 75 CJ5 w/Stuff
> > 90 XJ w/Stuff Too
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
94364 From: intertwingled <intertwingled@q...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:47am
Subject: Re: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Yes, but what happens when you drop a rock on an earth cookie? =)
Tony
Marty wrote:
> Man and I thought the green peace guys liked to cry
>and moan about every thing.You guys are way worse.I
>vote we change the name to the Arizona Virtual Jeep
>Crybabies.:~)
>Marty
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
>http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
94365 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:48am
Subject: RE: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
You go Chris!! LOL kick that horse!!! :)
Joey K
93YJ
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris [mailto:my1stjeep@e...]
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 8:25 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Mr. Onley,
I nowhere implied of the items you accuse, I think you need to get
your mind reading abilities checked. I stated it is not a good
idea, I also stated if they are stacked and yes I did agree that
sometimes it is necessary, maybe you should re-read a post before
replying. Please be sure to get your facts straight before you make
accusations that are completely unfounded.
I never stated if you have to stack rock you don't belong there,
mistakes happen and yes you may take a line and slip off and it is
necessary, however my statement was (again get your facts straight)
that if you are going into a trail with the mindset that you are
going to have to (not as an option and I believe I did say it was ok
to use as a last resort, again read the posts before responding)
than you should not being do the trail.
Let us look at the implications of your post which has lead to this
discussion. Some of those facts you left of your response.
Two in particular are what has started this whole thing:
The last time you ran the trail, you were the only one to try it,
you got so far in and decided to turn around, rock stacking had to
take place to get out and you did get body damage. I respect the
fact that you had to stack rocks and you got in over your head, you
made a smart move and retreated, I did give you the benefit of the
doubt while it was never stated, that you remove the rocks that you
stack as to keep from the area becoming paved.
You then asked for attendees on your next trip to have strong backs,
implies you are already assuming that you will be stacking rocks to
get through it as you don't think you can any other way.
Then another comment in a future email (this is the one that finally
got me to reply) was your comment about so be it if we have to pave
them you were all for it. Then I see in the email below you are
against it, which is it??????????
If you had understood my comments (or that mind reading thing you
think you have for implications was working) I said it was ok to
stack rocks if necessary, if you get into a situation where there is
not another option, but going into a trail where you are going to
stack rocks just to make it easy enough is wrong.
I alos think you are mixing up your responses, as I never called
anyone a Jealous Wanna Be, guess reading my post a second time might
have helped you understand who wrote what. Again I ask you to get
your facts straight and if you respond to what I write, keep it that
way, don't bring in other posts information.
Have a nice day and happy wheeling.
Chris "never implied jack about being a perfect wheeler"
---------------------------------------------------------------------
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "olneyjeeps" <olneyjeeps@y...> wrote:
> as a clarification to my previous post (made at 3am due to a local
> power outage)
> I do not, did not and never will condone "paving"
> "you started off by implying rock stacking would be going on by
> > asking for attendees to bring a stong back, you touched of a
nerve
> > in alot of people here. Setting expectations to newcomers to
our
> > sport that going into a trail that your vehicle or the driver
> cannot
> > handle, but don't worry just stack rocks is not a very good way
to
> > start things off"
> Just as a reminder, let's read what I said:
> "required
> > equipment would be:
> > minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
> > Front and rear lockers
> > winch + hooks
> > strong back (rocks are heavy)"
>
> If, in attempting any "challenging trail", you are not prepared /
> able to move a rock or two (as you imply you never have), or use a
> winch, in the event of a missed line (as you imply you never
have),
> then you are bound to get in trouble (as you imply you never
have).
> I never said anyone did not belong there (the last trip,
exploritory
> in nature, included a TJ with 31's... are you saying he was not
> entitled to come as far as he could (yes we pulled him off a rock
he
> misjudged 1.5 miles in) to watch/assist?). To join THIS trip, I
did
> not want anyone who could not "pull his own weight" in the event
of a
> minor mishap. You have the same right to exclude people from trips
> YOU lead, NOT from an area (unless of course you have full
> title/ownership of said area).
>
> The rocks whick were moved (I believe the total count was 3 or 4)
> were to get me off a rock on which I had become high centered
caused
> by unfortunate slip off line which countless people have done,
> even/especially the "hard core" . If you read the trip
> report/description, you would have read that the trip was
exploritory
> only with little/no expectation of completion (expected / planned
to
> walk trail). The trip was not made to seek "challanging terrain"
(I
> avoid trips (expecially with my daughter) of this sort because it
has
> been my experience that this is when most trail damge occours and
I
> try to avoid situations which would but me or others in danger),
but
> to enjoy the incredibly scenic views.
> Although trail damage is inexcusable and should never be
encouraged
> or condoned, I do take particular offence to anyone (sierra club
or
> hard core 4wheeler, no matter how involved they may be) who wishes
to
> claim sole access to any area. To answer your points: NASCAR is
> privatly owned and operated and can make its own rules. Although
> there are very strict regulations for driving on the Autobahn
(alle
> Deutsche Strasse),improper tire rating does not (unless a new law
is
> in effect since my last visit) cause the loss of license for a
year.
>
> As for forbiding any type of rock stacking because of safety
(whether
> rocks were replaced or not), because it is part of nearly every
> competition,this would eliminate most every competion held.
> As your use safety to further your agenda (god forbid someone
should
> break a finger), vehicles should be banned if not properly fitted
> with proper safety equipment. Much more important than the fear
of
> broken fingers should be that of broken heads. Note:in every
picture
> in my gallery I and my childeren and anyone ever allowed in my
Jeep
> wear 4pt harnesses under a Randy Ellis modified 6pt cage (yes that
is
> a picture of me and my friends 20years ago, before people
> seeking "more challenging trails" cut the landscape to shreds and
> when the Four Peaks trails could be counted) .
> The blanket statent ...."If you can't complete...without
stacking...
> DONT BELONG THERE" implicitly includes situations which require a
> winch (as these situations are usually much more severe). This
would
> mean everyone who ever stacked or used a winch was where they did
not
> belong (wouldn't this include nearly 100% of severE rock crawlers,
as
> I have yet to see a competiion where rocks were not stacked and/or
> winches were not used)?
>
> You say "It is imperrative theselands remain open to ALL", but it
is
> quite clear you wish to control who can or cannot even attempt
> certain trails. Having a highly equipped vehicle, you (of course)
> would be exempt and can, in search of a "challenge" attempt
anything
> with or without stacking/winching. Dosen't a "challenge"
implicitly
> include the possibilty of the need of assistance? Isn't it
> EVERYONE'S right to attempt a "challanging" trail?
>
> Bottom line IMHO:
>
> Pushing your limits (finding trails which provide a challenge) is
not
> a sin as long as you stop before exceeding your limits (jeez, isnt
> that what I did?). Although making / causing permanant damage is
> wrong, attempting challenging trails is largely what our sport is
> about and should be encouraged and ASSISTED by those who have the
> ability/experience (not bashed and heckled as "jealous wannabees"
in
> an effort to keep areas their own private domain).
>
> As hard as it has been to see areas I once hiked and hunted
covered
> with houses, NO ONE (sierra club or hard core specialist) has the
> right to tell ANYONE (who treats the enviroment with safety and
> respect) where they can or cannot go.
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <my1stjeep@e...> wrote:
> > Everyone has an opinion. You say you want to keep it open and we
> > ahve repeatedly been told rock stacking, creating by passes
etc...
> > due cause trail closures, so why would you go into a trail
knowing
> > either the vehicle or the driver cannot do it without rock
stacking?
> >
> > Yes sometimes it is needed to get by, but just as you talk about
> > preservation, they should be removed, it is a insane to even
think
> > paving would keep the trails open. If paved tails are what will
be
> > open then your logic would serve that not matter how many want
the
> > harder trails open we can kiss them good bye, they will close
them
> > and tell us the current paved trails are enough, is that your
> goal?
> > Do you want these trails closed so we can run everything in 2wd?
> >
> > I am at a loss for words for you to be calling anyone names,
> > especially from the person I see on every adgenda, every
meeting,
> at
> > every event to keep them open. She is simply reminding you
> (albight
> > passionately) of some of the reasons our trails are closed and
> since
> > you started off by implying rock stacking would be going on by
> > asking for attendees to bring a stong back, you touched of a
nerve
> > in alot of people here. Setting expectations to newcomers to
our
> > sport that going into a trail that your vehicle or the driver
> cannot
> > handle, but don't worry just stack rocks is not a very good way
to
> > start things off. It sets a bad example for newcomers not to
> > mention that someone could get hurt driving a pretty stock rig
> > through something like Sandy Beach or Anaconda or Anihilator
or ???
> > just cause they have the attitude they can stack their way out.
> >
> > I hope that you are aware of the land agencies thoughts on this,
> but
> > from your message and thoughts of what they deem damage I fear
you
> > do not. Before you go off on someone calling them names you
might
> > want to be sure of the facts that the items you are talking
about
> > are deemed damage, tire marks are not. I also hope you remove
the
> > rocks when you are done, you did not say either way, but I will
> give
> > you the benefit of the doubt.
> >
> > Keep in mind you should only do what it is safe for your vehicle
to
> > do, and a driver can make up for alot. However someone who
wants
> to
> > run NASCAR, but cannot afford all the equipment (or in our case
a
> > full blown rock crawling rig) will be stopped from running the
> race,
> > if you drive the Autobaughn and get caught with tires that don't
> > match the speed rating for how fast you were going you lose your
> > license to drive period, it is called safety. Stacking rocks
can
> > lead to broken fingers, pulled muscles, unearthed scorpions or
> other
> > creatures that can sting or bite you, the rocks can shift while
you
> > go over them and could even cause you to roll over and while
> > sometimes is it necessary as a last resort we should not go into
a
> > trail with the though process that we are going to do it just to
> get
> > through it. It is not safe and it is not a preserving mentality.
> >
> > JMO
> >
> > Chris
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
---
> -
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "olneyjeeps" <olneyjeeps@y...>
wrote:
> > > Thank you for showing your true colors - self ritcous pompus
> > > controlling wannabe get to tell everyone where they can or
cannot
> > go
> > > based on how you thought it would possibly change the run;
> > > As you may have been deaf and blind at the last blm meeting. I
> and
> > my
> > > family enjoy exploring what shrinking habatat there is. They
> > should
> > > not be limited to the hiking "elite". Nor should they be
limited
> > to
> > > the "extreeme four wheeler" My position is that these lands
must
> > > remain open (gonna lose some friende here) even if it has to
be
> > > paved.
> > >
> > > No One should have sole right to the beauty / solitude /
> > challange.
> > > This or any canyon is not for any one group. The more people
> that
> > > see theese trails, the more people will want to preserve it.
The
> > > trail is a trail, not your private playground. Not too long
ago
> > your
> > > house was bare desart, get rid of the stacking there so you
may
> > have
> > > your own private playground.
> > > AlthoughI do not advocate wheel spinning, rockstatking, or
> > winching
> > > thry do have their place in rare occasions, It is imperrative
> > these
> > > lands remain open to ALL (forgive me for yelling) and not just
> the
> > > owners of fab shops creating vehicles by whose standards leave
> 90%
> > of
> > > the club "not worthy" / wannabees (how many of you that dont'
> have
> > > 60's front and rear,4link airlockers, 44's etc realized you
were
> > just
> > > labeled a wanabe, and therefore, by Ms. McCullen's judgement
> owing
> > > gratitude for being allowed to travel the trails she and her
sons
> > no
> > > longer consider "challanging"? Maybe we should rent heavy
> > equipment
> > > and go in and tear up the trails so that no one (except Sandy
> and
> > > her sons) can enjoy.
> > >
> > > In response to your comment referring to my comment as "sounds
> > like
> > > like the green eye of
> > > > jealousy to me." Give me a break. There is not a speck
> > > (possesions, ability or otherwise) that you and your world
> > traveled
> > > multi lingual college educated kids and their "toys" have that
I
> > > would waste on starting a fire. My girls love spending time
with
> > me
> > > exploring in the Jeeps. I need nothing more to garner their
full
> > > love and devotion.
> > >
> > > Public land is public land. Just as I fight to keep the
Sierra
> > Club
> > > from blocking off land for a limited few, I resent Sandy and
> > others
> > > for claiming that they have exclusive right to any area.
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee McCullen"
<mccullen@c...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > OK........... my apologies in the use of "YOU". It was
meant
> > to be
> > > > directed at anyone that is into a trail they don't
belong.....
> > or
> > > those that
> > > > seem to believe PAVING is simply a way to allow them to go
> where
> > > they
> > > > please! Yes, caps indicate yelling or very strong
suggestion
> > and
> > > that is
> > > > exactly what I meant. I agree I was not there and I do
> > appreciate
> > > the fact
> > > > he did turn around, but he also slams the extreme wheeler
and
> > > indicated he
> > > > had as much right on those trails as anyone else. NO he
does
> > > not.........
> > > > not if it means the extreme wheeler has to lose any/all
> > challenge
> > > they have
> > > > because someone wants to "do what the big guys do". I'm so
> > tired
> > > of this
> > > > attitude and mentality. Just because someone builds a
vehicle
> > > capable of
> > > > doing almost anything does not make them "the big guy",
> > or "GOD",
> > > or anyone
> > > > any different than you, I or the first time 4-wheeler.
> > > >
> > > > There were comments comparing the "damage" the buggies or
rock
> > > crawlers do
> > > > ............ like leaving "semi-permanent marks" on the
rocks.
> > Or
> > > climbing
> > > > "near vertical obstacles"........ sounds like like the
green
> > eye of
> > > > jealousy to me. This is not damage........ paving or
making
> by-
> > > passes IS
> > > > damage and abuse and these actions are what will close ALL
our
> > > trails.
> > > > ......
> > > >
> > > > [As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the
semi
> > > > > >>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to
> > climb
> > > near
> > > > > >>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's
> > right
> > > to
> > > > > >>>> say where someone does or does not belong]
> > > >
> > > > This comes across to me as "I'll do as I
please"........ "it's
> > my
> > > right to
> > > > stack rocks as long as the day is long", "I don't do any
more
> > > damage than
> > > > the "rock scratchers" yada yada yada!! YES, it is MY RIGHT
if
> > > these kinds
> > > > of actions lose the only challenge I have within my sport!
> YES,
> > I
> > > AM
> > > > YELLING Chris............... there are way too many
> > recreationists
> > > out
> > > > there that simply do NOT get the picture. Too many ATV's
tear
> > > across
> > > > country, the 4-wheelers enter trails they are not capable of
> > doing,
> > > many
> > > > motorcycles go way to fast............... and we can't seem
to
> > > understand
> > > > "WHY" we're losing everything. The agencies simply do not
want
> > to
> > > deal with
> > > > the headaches of the recreationists not being
> > responsible. .....
> > > Before
> > > > you go off again, I'm not saying or claiming this Steve
> was "not"
> > > > responsible but his attitude is certainly in the grey area...
> > > > There are LARGE groups of agency planners that feel
the "graded
> > > gravel roads
> > > > should be enough for us". There are also LARGE numbers of
new
> > > personnel
> > > > joining the land management agencies and believe
> > me.............,
> > > for the
> > > > most part, they are GREEN!!! Everyone seems to be
> into "saving"
> > > something.
> > > > Our battles will not be getting easier and abuse such as
rock
> > > paving and
> > > > by-passes are the first issues to be held over us. We lost
> > > Jawbreaker
> > > > because of "rock paving"........ had vehicles going
> > > through "DErocked" the
> > > > obstacle after getting through the Tucson BLM wouldn't have
had
> > > anything to
> > > > present to the courts to show "abuse". Game & Fish are no
> > better.
> > > If it's
> > > > not wildlife habitat destruction, it's "messing up the
> > watershed"
> > > of the
> > > > area or rock stacking is showing to alter the flow because
it
> > tends
> > > to hold
> > > > silt or gravel instead of allowing it to wash down stream
etc
> etc
> > > > etc............. there's desert tortoise, or a lizard, or
> > beetle
> > > or a WEED.
> > > > They'll use anything they can to shut out OHV
> > recreation.........
> > > WHY do we
> > > > insist on hurting ourselves!!!?
> > > >
> > > > I am rambling and will continue to do so until ALL of my
fellow
> > 4-
> > > wheelers
> > > > finally understand that we each have our own level of
wheeling
> > and
> > > to mess
> > > > us someone elses challenge just to prove a point, will shut
us
> > all
> > > down.
> > > >
> > > > Sandee
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 5:40 PM
> > > > > To: Sandee McCullen
> > > > > Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I quote you:
> > > > >
> > > > > "If you cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with
> rocks
> > to
> > > > > enable you to get through or across an obstacle........
YOU
> > DON'T
> > > > > BELONG THERE!!"
> > > > >
> > > > > The use of "you" and the caps (internet yelling) make it
look
> > > like it
> > > > > was directed to him. Sorry if I misinterpreted this.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your points are all correct, but it is incorrect to use
them
> > > against
> > > > > Steve in this case, since we were not there and have no
idea
> > in
> > > what
> > > > > condition he left the trail.
> > > > >
> > > > > If we are going to preach, we should do it in a general
> > manner.
> > > It is
> > > > > unfair to use someone else's post about a run to further
our
> > > ideas,
> > > > > even if they are good ideas. To some, it will seem like we
> are
> > > bashing
> > > > > the post.
> > > > >
> > > > > I read Steve's post and thought it was very responsible
that
> > they
> > > did
> > > > > what they did. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that
they
> > > unstacked
> > > > > the rock. Remember, innocent until proven guilty works in
may
> > ways
> > > > > besides in a court of law, especially with friends and
fellow
> > > wheelers.
> > > > > It was pointed out to me in an email from another member
that
> > his
> > > email
> > > > > also indicated that they might stack rocks if they go
back.
> > > Again, I
> > > > > give him the benefit of the doubt that they will unstack
them
> > as
> > > well.
> > > > > If they do not, then I will lose and my trust of him will
be
> > lost.
> > > > >
> > > > > Remember (and this is my final point since I don't want
this
> > to
> > > grow in
> > > > > to more than it has), if we were to never wheel on trails
> that
> > > there is
> > > > > the potential that we will have to stack rocks, most of us
> > would
> > > never
> > > > > leave the graded dirt road. That would be a shame.
> > > > >
> > > > > Chris
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 03:45 PM, Sandee
McCullen
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Chris, I don't think anyone "jumped down anyones
> > > throat".........
> > > > > > simply
> > > > > > stated "rock paving" is ruining our extreme trails and
is
> > > hurting us
> > > > > > all.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have NO PROBLEM with turning around when finding a
trail
> > is
> > > too
> > > > > > tough but
> > > > > > you and I both KNOW that there are waaaaaay too many
> > vehicles
> > > going
> > > > > > into
> > > > > > trails they KNOW they are not equipped to do without
> rocking
> > or
> > > making
> > > > > > by-passes! I hear over and over again....... "no
problem,
> > > we'll 'pull
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > through'". WHY???? Isn't actually "driving to the
> > individual
> > > > > > challenge"
> > > > > > what we're suppose to be about?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I didn't pretend to "be there" and I didn't accuse
anyone of
> > > > > > "semi-permanent" damage. Nor did I accuse the rock
> crawlers
> > of
> > > being
> > > > > > "GODS". My message was to EVERYONE that are doing
trails
> > above
> > > their
> > > > > > ability, rock paving or making by-passes to get through
to
> > stay
> > > within
> > > > > > their
> > > > > > own challenge limitations. These actions WILL affect
ALL
> of
> > us
> > > in the
> > > > > > near
> > > > > > future and it won't be what anyone wants to hear. This
> kind
> > of
> > > abuse
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > closing trails across the country. The agencies are
having
> > a
> > > tough
> > > > > > enough
> > > > > > time understanding the "challenge" of extreme 4-
wheeling,
> > but
> > > when all
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > see is the rock paving, by-passes, oil spills, and
> > vegetation
> > > winched
> > > > > > out of
> > > > > > the ground they simply declare "abuse and resource
damage"
> > and
> > > close
> > > > > > everything. It's going to take ALL of us to truly show
> > > RESPONSIBLE
> > > > > > use of
> > > > > > our recreation trails system................
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The responses from Todd and myself simply stated "to
stay
> on
> > > trails
> > > > > > within
> > > > > > individual vehicle and/or driver
> capabilities".............
> > or
> > > > > > "UNSTACK if
> > > > > > the need for rocks is called for".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sandee
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > > >> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> > > > > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 3:28 PM
> > > > > >> To: Sandee McCullen
> > > > > >> Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > >> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking
rocks
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Sandy and Todd, um, did either of you read his run
> > description?
> > > > > >> They turned around after deciding they were beyond
their
> > > capabilities.
> > > > > >> The rock stacking was done to get back out. No lectures
> > should
> > > be
> > > > > >> given
> > > > > >> because they had no idea what the trail ahead was like.
> > > > > >> In my opinion, they did the sensible thing. They gave
it a
> > try
> > > (aren't
> > > > > >> we all allowed to do this, it being public land and
all?)
> > and
> > > called
> > > > > >> it
> > > > > >> quits when it became apparent that it was beyond their
> > > capabilities.
> > > > > >> So
> > > > > >> a few rocks were stacked to get them back out. At least
> > they
> > > didn't
> > > > > >> just continue on and stack the entire trail as others
> > probably
> > > would
> > > > > >> have. Besides, he never said he didn't unstack them.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Everyone, please don't be so quick to jump down the
other
> > > guys/girls
> > > > > >> throat, ESPECIALLY if you weren't there or do not know
all
> > the
> > > facts.
> > > > > >> When you make assumptions without facts, you just make
> > > yourself look
> > > > > >> bad and create ill will in the group. We have enough
> > bickering
> > > here
> > > > > >> lately. Lets work to save our trails, not bicker about
who
> > can
> > > play
> > > > > >> where.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Just my $.02
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Chris
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 02:57 PM, Sandee
> McCullen
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing
> trails
> > > via ROCK
> > > > > >>> PAVING
> > > > > >>> needs to stop.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line
is
> > > simply: If
> > > > > >>> you
> > > > > >>> cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks
to
> > > enable you
> > > > > >>> to get
> > > > > >>> through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T
BELONG
> > > THERE!! The
> > > > > >>> "semi
> > > > > >>> permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do
> > > with "ruining a good
> > > > > >>> trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of
paving
> is
> > > what is
> > > > > >>> "ruining
> > > > > >>> the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now
and
> > then
> > > to
> > > > > >>> "help"
> > > > > >>> is
> > > > > >>> done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy
would
> > > have you
> > > > > >>> REMOVE
> > > > > >>> the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of
the
> > > obstacle.
> > > > > >>> There
> > > > > >>> are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge" for
> > every
> > > level of
> > > > > >>> 4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the extreme
> > > driver/vehicle
> > > > > >>> is
> > > > > >>> what is causing the problems and is what is in
discussion
> > > from your
> > > > > >>> message.
> > > > > >>> This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's ALL
of
> > > us.........
> > > > > >>> respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for
all.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock
> > crawling
> > > with
> > > > > >>> no,
> > > > > >>> or
> > > > > >>> very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS!
All
> > > they're
> > > > > >>> asking is
> > > > > >>> the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do
> > > whatever they
> > > > > >>> wish
> > > > > >>> STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are
not
> > > happy about
> > > > > >>> "rock
> > > > > >>> paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the
> watershed
> > or
> > > natural
> > > > > >>> layout
> > > > > >>> of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother Nature
> > does a
> > > good
> > > > > >>> job
> > > > > >>> of
> > > > > >>> keeping trails natural but some of the stacking/paving
> > > happening
> > > > > >>> today
> > > > > >>> is
> > > > > >>> well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
> > > > > >>> [FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in
> the
> > > bottom of
> > > > > >>> a
> > > > > >>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand
> cubic
> > > feet per
> > > > > >>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good
> > > trail."] This
> > > > > >>>> may
> > > > > >>> not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good
> > trail"
> > > but it
> > > > > >>> is
> > > > > >>> if
> > > > > >>> YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother
> > Nature
> > > may
> > > > > >>> make a
> > > > > >>> trail easier or harder but that should be left to
nature
> > NOT
> > > YOU or
> > > > > >>> other
> > > > > >>> want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have
been
> > > wheel'n
> > > > > >>> Arizona and
> > > > > >>> Califor
94344 From: Michael Peck <map6260@h...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:13pm
Subject: Re: Re: CJ7 Soft Doors
I have a pair of black full as well as a pair of black half CJ-7 / YJ soft
doors. Give me a call at 602-570-0713 and we can set up some time
when you could come by to see them.
A silent member.....
Michael Peck
>From: Dave Peterson <gonzodave@y...>
>To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: CJ7 Soft Doors
>Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:48:05 -0800 (PST)
>
>The door openings between a CJ-5 and a CJ-7 are completely different. I
>think CJ-7 and YJ doors are interchangeable, though.
>
>Gonzo
>
>--- Matt OBrien <makaioo@y...> wrote:
> > I've got a pair of CJ-5 soft doors but with the curved bottom I think
> > they'd leave a large gap at the bottom/rear. Still, you're welcome to
> > come by and try them on for size and their yours if you want them. I
> > was going to chop them down for half-doors but don't really need to
> > anymore.
> >
> > Call my cell at 480-239-4182 or just drop by - I'm here all day every
> > day during the week.
> >
> > 3472 E. Geronimo Ct.
> > Gilbert
> >
> > Matt
> > K7MTO
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Kearney" <Joe-CJ7@j...> wrote:
> > > Need some help finding soft doors for a CJ7 (I think the CJ5 doors
> > will work
> > > also).
> > > Anybody know where I can get a used set?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
>http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
__________________________________________________ _______________
Frustrated with dial-up? Get high-speed for as low as $26.95.
https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
94345 From: Michael Peck <map6260@h...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:32pm
Subject: RE: Re: CJ7 Soft Doors
I also have both sets of latches, the slides for your CJ and the paddles
for a YJ. It's up to you!
map6260
>From: "Joe-CJ7" <Joe-CJ7@j...>
>To: "Dave Peterson" <gonzodave@y...>,<az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: CJ7 Soft Doors
>Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:52:56 -0700
>
>So you do not think they will work?
>
>I am completely OK with a gap at the bottom. The big thing is if they
>will latch closed.
>
>Joe Kearney
>Joe-CJ7@J...
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dave Peterson [mailto:gonzodave@y...]
>Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 3:48 PM
>To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: CJ7 Soft Doors
>
>The door openings between a CJ-5 and a CJ-7 are completely different. I
>think CJ-7 and YJ doors are interchangeable, though.
>
>Gonzo
>
>--- Matt OBrien <makaioo@y...> wrote:
> > I've got a pair of CJ-5 soft doors but with the curved bottom I think
> > they'd leave a large gap at the bottom/rear. Still, you're welcome to
> > come by and try them on for size and their yours if you want them. I
> > was going to chop them down for half-doors but don't really need to
> > anymore.
> >
> > Call my cell at 480-239-4182 or just drop by - I'm here all day every
> > day during the week.
> >
> > 3472 E. Geronimo Ct.
> > Gilbert
> >
> > Matt
> > K7MTO
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Kearney" <Joe-CJ7@j...> wrote:
> > > Need some help finding soft doors for a CJ7 (I think the CJ5 doors
> > will work
> > > also).
> > > Anybody know where I can get a used set?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
>http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
__________________________________________________ _______________
Compare high-speed Internet plans, starting at $26.95.
https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.)
94346 From: olneyjeeps <olneyjeeps@y...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:51pm
Subject: Re: doors; not rocks, paving,stacking or anything nearly related or resembeling
still trying to figure if you received my email explaining difference
in doors (god, please dont jump on me for stacking emails.. I can't
find the unstack button)
what I was referring to (curved/square) was the upper rear corner;
the "top of the line" soft tops by bestop have "rounded" upper rear
corners (resemble but do not replace hard dooors)
Kayline / Factory (usually dealer installed) tops have
distinctly "squared" upper rear corners
I tried to email you a pic (might have gone to wrong Joe) of example
of Bestop door; for pics, easiest route was: JCWitney.com
select doors (not rock stacking kit)
page through pics of doors to see variations of which I was referring
Back to additional question: do you currently have soft top/what
brand/model is it?
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Joe-CJ7" <Joe-CJ7@j...> wrote:
> I do not know and I am sorry I don't.
>
>
>
> Does anyone else know which ones I might need?
>
>
>
>
>
> Joe Kearney
>
> Joe-CJ7@J...
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve olney [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 4:20 PM
> To: Joe-CJ7
> Subject: RE: doors
>
>
>
> square or round corner?
>
> _____
>
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
> <http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
94347 From: olneyjeeps <olneyjeeps@y...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 9:00pm
Subject: Re: CJ7 Soft Drs(not in a train or on a plane;not on a house or witha mouse
BTW: it was recently discovered (ok I figure everyone else knew this
already, but it may be news to someone) that CJ/YJ doors will also
fit quite well on a TJ (with exception of latch mechanisim); A
leftover soft door frame may be covered with heavy gauge diamond
plate aluminum (Davis Salvage) to creat nice, low dollar half doors
Just don't let anyone think you may use them to transplant rocks
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Peck" <map6260@h...> wrote:
> I have a pair of black full as well as a pair of black half CJ-7 /
YJ soft
> doors. Give me a call at 602-570-0713 and we can set up some time
> when you could come by to see them.
>
> A silent member.....
>
> Michael Peck
>
>
> >From: Dave Peterson <gonzodave@y...>
> >To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: CJ7 Soft Doors
> >Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:48:05 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >The door openings between a CJ-5 and a CJ-7 are completely
different. I
> >think CJ-7 and YJ doors are interchangeable, though.
> >
> >Gonzo
> >
> >--- Matt OBrien <makaioo@y...> wrote:
> > > I've got a pair of CJ-5 soft doors but with the curved bottom I
think
> > > they'd leave a large gap at the bottom/rear. Still, you're
welcome to
> > > come by and try them on for size and their yours if you want
them. I
> > > was going to chop them down for half-doors but don't really
need to
> > > anymore.
> > >
> > > Call my cell at 480-239-4182 or just drop by - I'm here all day
every
> > > day during the week.
> > >
> > > 3472 E. Geronimo Ct.
> > > Gilbert
> > >
> > > Matt
> > > K7MTO
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Kearney" <Joe-CJ7@j...>
wrote:
> > > > Need some help finding soft doors for a CJ7 (I think the CJ5
doors
> > > will work
> > > > also).
> > > > Anybody know where I can get a used set?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >__________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
> >http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
> __________________________________________________ _______________
> Frustrated with dial-up? Get high-speed for as low as $26.95.
> https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.)
94348 From: <NVRSTUKXJ@a...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:40pm
Subject: Re: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
If I see one more post on this subject, I'm going to go out and take EVERY
rock on EVERY trail and go home......
T.J. Gill
75 CJ5 w/Stuff
90 XJ w/Stuff Too
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
94349 From: CANT W8 <rlpii@q...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:02pm
Subject: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Well, at least the name calling has stopped and the posts are getting
a little lighter and funnier. <smile>
Bob
74 CJ-5
CANT W8
-- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, NVRSTUKXJ@a... wrote:
> If I see one more post on this subject, I'm going to go out and take
EVERY
> rock on EVERY trail and go home......
>
> T.J. Gill
> 75 CJ5 w/Stuff
> 90 XJ w/Stuff Too
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
94350 From: olneyjeeps <olneyjeeps@y...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:05pm
Subject: Re: sandy shorts mail/stacking hamburgers
what subject?
can you describe the rocks ( I think I saw them on the news)?
got stuff?
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, NVRSTUKXJ@a... wrote:
> If I see one more post on this subject, I'm going to go out and
take EVERY
> rock on EVERY trail and go home......
>
> T.J. Gill
> 75 CJ5 w/Stuff
> 90 XJ w/Stuff Too
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
94351 From: Craig Micek <micekc@e...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:08pm
Subject: Re: Moab Trails under assault
I just sent a quick one!
Craig
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hackle" <hackle@q...>
To: "RockRats@yahoogroups. Com" <RockRats@yahoogroups.com>; "Az_Vjc"
<az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 4:53 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Moab Trails under assault
> I got this off JU. I plan to do some letter writing and I suggest everyone
> else follow suit. This area is targeted hard by the anti-recreation
groups.
>
> The Bureau of Land management is responsible for over 3.6 million acres of
> public land in Grand and San Juan counties in Utah. A Resource Management
> Plan (RMP)
> Is the document that guides the Management and policies of the land it
> covers.
> The next RMP will guide decision making in these areas for the next 15
> years.
> By Federal law, the BLM must consider public opinion in the preparation of
> the RMP. That is where we come in.
> The Moab meeting was on OCT. 16th. About fifty people attended, but only 5
> from the Red Rock 4 wheelers. MOST attendees were strong advocates of
either
> severely restricting or totally eliminating all motorized use on BLM land.
> We are clearly outnumbered!
> The good news is that public comments will be taken until Dec 30, 2003.
> We must make our voices heard if we have any hope of having our wishes and
> concerns being considered in the final draft of RMP.
> We need all 4-wheelers to write a few comments of how important continued
> motorized access is to us all in Moab. You can write or email the BLM
office
> www.moabrmp.com or www.monticellormp.com
> Thanks MoabMike
>
>
>
> Arizona RockRats President
> http://www.rockrats.org/
> "I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member" Groucho
> Marx
> Member of the original dirty half dozen.
> http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
94352 From: intertwingled <intertwingled@q...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:23pm
Subject: Re: speaking of camping... Bagdad/Camp Wood area..
Ken Henson wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, November 12, 2003, at 01:35 PM, intertwingled wrote:
>
>> Speaking of camping, what kind of camping and offroading opportunities
>> exist around the Burro Creek/Bagdad/Camp Wood area? Also, (this
>> question is I guess for Sandy =)), what exactly is (or maybe used to be
>> now) the Luis Maria Baca Land Grant that is up in that area?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Tony
>>
>
>
> The Grant is totally closed. I worked for the Forest Service in the
> late 60s and the roads were open part of the time, but now it is
> closed to all outsiders.
>
> There are a lot of nice camping sites around the Camp Wood area. The
> school and the fire guard station have been torn down by the Forest
> Service. The old Walnut Creek Ranger Station is now in the hands of
> some group or maybe has something to do with Prescott College, I am
> not sure.
Cool. I have never driven along the (main) road from Bagdad to Camp
Wood. On every map I've seen it looks like it is a maintained road.
Gotta do that soon! =)
>
> There are some cool roads that go from the highway to Bagdad through
> the Yolo Ranch property and on to the Camp Wood area. The roads are
> badly washed out (I have been told) and it would take rock stacking
> (you could read this as trail maintenance) to get a built Jeep
> through. From Prescott out and back is about 150 miles. The No Club
> Club (4*4 Group) as made the run a couple of times in the last two years.
Not to beat on a dead horse, I haven't even done a rated trail myself
(except one time, I think, by mistake, when I was searching for some
nice specimins of marble out near Wenden (I am also an inveterate
rockhound)). So I have never done any rock stacking, or paving, or
whatever you want to call it. But, I think it would be OK to stack some
rocks to get through a particularly bad spot, AS LONG AS YOU UNSTACK
THEM WHEN YOU ARE DONE. It's like packing out your own trash: unstack
anything you have stacked, leave the terrain as you have found it. Like
using a winch or a lever, stacking or paving is a basic human activity,
going back to the Romans and even earlier. Well, that's my two cents and
I think the horse is dead now and can be rendered for glue.
Anyway, I have a lot more work to be done on my 94 YJ before I even
think about taking it on any kind of rated trail.
I might do a weekend excursion through Date Creek, Bagdad, Camp Woods,
Skull Valley, etc, just to get more familiar with the area. Nothing
rated. Will probably end with a tour of Arcosanti. If anyone is
interested I will post this as a run.
Tony
>
> Ken Henson
> Prescott
>
>
>
94353 From: James Rogers <skijunkie@c...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 0:27am
Subject: Just wondering...
If anyone can direct me to a FAQ or good tutorial on rock stacking. TIA
94354 From: intertwingled <intertwingled@q...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 0:43am
Subject: Re: Just wondering...
http://www.rockstacker.com/press/pages/rsrjjn.html
;-)
James Rogers wrote:
>If anyone can direct me to a FAQ or good tutorial on rock stacking. TIA
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
94355 From: RICK BEER <RIKNAZ@M...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 5:31am
Subject: My kill switch works
I am a another victim of society
My Jeep was broken into last night other than window broken stereo taken stuff like that but the kill switch did its job
the strange thing is I heard the noise last night I was out side in 2 sec flat to investigate but seen nothing not even the broken glass nor anyone running or driving away makes me think were the *****hole was It was raining fairly hard at the time when I went out side no shoes or shirt so I did not stay out very long make me kind of wonder if it wasn't raining I could have killed I mean caught the jerk
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
94356 From: Russell Gevarter <gev39@y...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:17am
Subject: Re: [Tech] 93 YJ - VIBRATION OFF THE LINE.....
Bob,
Also consider this: Are your rear springs getting worn out? Sagging may
have caused the pinion angle to change, and acceleration makes it wrap up
even more. I suggest add-a-leafs and some angle shims and a fresh RR
u-joint. OR If they're Rancho just replace them. They have a lifetime
warranty...;)
Russ
94357 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:38am
Subject: [TR] Table Mesa Area - Saturday, January 31, 2004
Hello All,Robert (Roy) Rogers is leading a Table Mesa Area trail run on Saturday, January 31, 2004.<br><br>When: Saterday, 31 Jan 2004, starting at 9AM
Where: WEST SIDE OF I-17 BEYOND THE END OF THE PAVEMENT
Rating: 2.0+
Length: 3 Hours.
CB Channel: 4
TABLE MESA EXIT TO AGUA FRIA RIVER CLEANUP!<br>
<br>
BRING DRINKS, GLOVES, AND FRIENDS.<br>
SHOVELS, RAKES AND SUNBLOCK OPTIONAL.<br>
<br>
ORGANIZED BY THE ARIZONA VIRTUAL JEEP CLUB IN COOPERATION WITH THE BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT (PROVIDING THREE DUMPSTERS), THE ARIZONA STATE LAND DEPARTMENT (PROVIDING A DUMPSTER AND TRASH BAGS), AND THE LAKE PLEASANT REGIONAL PARK AREA (PROVIDING A TRUCK TO HAUL AWAY TIRES).<br>
<br>
IF ANY QUESTIONS, CONTACT ROBERT ROGERS AT:<br>
HOME 623-581-6791 <br>
OR (CELL) 602-828-2543.<br>
There are a number of trails in this area; some of the most difficult trails in Arizona can be found here. There are also moderate and easy trails to be found. There are also ghost towns and old mines to explore in this area.
Here is an incomplete list of trails that may be found.
<a href=http://www.azvjc.org/trails/view.asp?T=9 target=mainpage>Anaconda</a><br>
<a href=http://www.azvjc.org/trails/view.asp?T=8 target=mainpage>Predator</a><br>
<a href=http://www.azvjc.org/trails/view.asp?T=10 target=mainpage>Raw Deal (Lower)</a><br>
<a href=http://www.azvjc.org/trails/view.asp?T=11 target=mainpage>Raw Deal (Upper)</a><br>
<a href=http://www.azvjc.org/trails/view.asp?T=3 target=mainpage>Terminator (Lower)</a><br>
<a href=http://www.azvjc.org/trails/view.asp?T=4 target=mainpage>Terminator (Upper)</a><br>
Tip Top Mine<br>
Gillette<br>
Milk Ranch<br>
http://www.azvjc.org/default.asp?A=1&ID=1090
Click the link above To Add Your Name to the Sign Up List
Thank You,
- The AzVJC Website
94358 From: robert_j_rogers2 <robert.rogers@h...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:48am
Subject: Re: [TR] Table Mesa Area - Saturday, January 31, 2004
It looks as if the AZVJC will get its name put on this one! The
Phoenix Four Wheelers are too busy too handle the Clean-up with
restarting thier Roundup next March. I thought it would look good if
the AZVJC coordinated it this year. THE BLM, ASTLD, and Parks have
all responded so it looks as if the show is on. Sent notices to the
ASA4WDC quarterly meeting to invite ALL of the sanctioned clubs (the
AZVJC logo is at the top of the notice). Will post the notice for
download and printing, so please spread the word.
94359 From: Matt OBrien <makaioo@y...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:58am
Subject: Re: [TR] Table Mesa Area - Saturday, January 31, 2004
The notice would be another good item for display/handout for this
weekends Loop 202 dedication to show folks that we do more than just
climb rocks. Will it be posted in time to have some printed before
Saturday?
Matt
K7MTO
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "robert_j_rogers2"
<robert.rogers@h...> wrote:
> It looks as if the AZVJC will get its name put on this one! The
> Phoenix Four Wheelers are too busy too handle the Clean-up with
> restarting thier Roundup next March. I thought it would look good
if
> the AZVJC coordinated it this year. THE BLM, ASTLD, and Parks have
> all responded so it looks as if the show is on. Sent notices to the
> ASA4WDC quarterly meeting to invite ALL of the sanctioned clubs
(the
> AZVJC logo is at the top of the notice). Will post the notice for
> download and printing, so please spread the word.
94360 From: Marty <robatari@y...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:16am
Subject: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Man and I thought the green peace guys liked to cry
and moan about every thing.You guys are way worse.I
vote we change the name to the Arizona Virtual Jeep
Crybabies.:~)
Marty
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
94361 From: Chris <my1stjeep@e...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:24am
Subject: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Mr. Onley,
I nowhere implied of the items you accuse, I think you need to get
your mind reading abilities checked. I stated it is not a good
idea, I also stated if they are stacked and yes I did agree that
sometimes it is necessary, maybe you should re-read a post before
replying. Please be sure to get your facts straight before you make
accusations that are completely unfounded.
I never stated if you have to stack rock you don't belong there,
mistakes happen and yes you may take a line and slip off and it is
necessary, however my statement was (again get your facts straight)
that if you are going into a trail with the mindset that you are
going to have to (not as an option and I believe I did say it was ok
to use as a last resort, again read the posts before responding)
than you should not being do the trail.
Let us look at the implications of your post which has lead to this
discussion. Some of those facts you left of your response.
Two in particular are what has started this whole thing:
The last time you ran the trail, you were the only one to try it,
you got so far in and decided to turn around, rock stacking had to
take place to get out and you did get body damage. I respect the
fact that you had to stack rocks and you got in over your head, you
made a smart move and retreated, I did give you the benefit of the
doubt while it was never stated, that you remove the rocks that you
stack as to keep from the area becoming paved.
You then asked for attendees on your next trip to have strong backs,
implies you are already assuming that you will be stacking rocks to
get through it as you don't think you can any other way.
Then another comment in a future email (this is the one that finally
got me to reply) was your comment about so be it if we have to pave
them you were all for it. Then I see in the email below you are
against it, which is it??????????
If you had understood my comments (or that mind reading thing you
think you have for implications was working) I said it was ok to
stack rocks if necessary, if you get into a situation where there is
not another option, but going into a trail where you are going to
stack rocks just to make it easy enough is wrong.
I alos think you are mixing up your responses, as I never called
anyone a Jealous Wanna Be, guess reading my post a second time might
have helped you understand who wrote what. Again I ask you to get
your facts straight and if you respond to what I write, keep it that
way, don't bring in other posts information.
Have a nice day and happy wheeling.
Chris "never implied jack about being a perfect wheeler"
---------------------------------------------------------------------
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "olneyjeeps" <olneyjeeps@y...> wrote:
> as a clarification to my previous post (made at 3am due to a local
> power outage)
> I do not, did not and never will condone "paving"
> "you started off by implying rock stacking would be going on by
> > asking for attendees to bring a stong back, you touched of a
nerve
> > in alot of people here. Setting expectations to newcomers to
our
> > sport that going into a trail that your vehicle or the driver
> cannot
> > handle, but don't worry just stack rocks is not a very good way
to
> > start things off"
> Just as a reminder, let's read what I said:
> "required
> > equipment would be:
> > minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
> > Front and rear lockers
> > winch + hooks
> > strong back (rocks are heavy)"
>
> If, in attempting any "challenging trail", you are not prepared /
> able to move a rock or two (as you imply you never have), or use a
> winch, in the event of a missed line (as you imply you never
have),
> then you are bound to get in trouble (as you imply you never
have).
> I never said anyone did not belong there (the last trip,
exploritory
> in nature, included a TJ with 31's... are you saying he was not
> entitled to come as far as he could (yes we pulled him off a rock
he
> misjudged 1.5 miles in) to watch/assist?). To join THIS trip, I
did
> not want anyone who could not "pull his own weight" in the event
of a
> minor mishap. You have the same right to exclude people from trips
> YOU lead, NOT from an area (unless of course you have full
> title/ownership of said area).
>
> The rocks whick were moved (I believe the total count was 3 or 4)
> were to get me off a rock on which I had become high centered
caused
> by unfortunate slip off line which countless people have done,
> even/especially the "hard core" . If you read the trip
> report/description, you would have read that the trip was
exploritory
> only with little/no expectation of completion (expected / planned
to
> walk trail). The trip was not made to seek "challanging terrain"
(I
> avoid trips (expecially with my daughter) of this sort because it
has
> been my experience that this is when most trail damge occours and
I
> try to avoid situations which would but me or others in danger),
but
> to enjoy the incredibly scenic views.
> Although trail damage is inexcusable and should never be
encouraged
> or condoned, I do take particular offence to anyone (sierra club
or
> hard core 4wheeler, no matter how involved they may be) who wishes
to
> claim sole access to any area. To answer your points: NASCAR is
> privatly owned and operated and can make its own rules. Although
> there are very strict regulations for driving on the Autobahn
(alle
> Deutsche Strasse),improper tire rating does not (unless a new law
is
> in effect since my last visit) cause the loss of license for a
year.
>
> As for forbiding any type of rock stacking because of safety
(whether
> rocks were replaced or not), because it is part of nearly every
> competition,this would eliminate most every competion held.
> As your use safety to further your agenda (god forbid someone
should
> break a finger), vehicles should be banned if not properly fitted
> with proper safety equipment. Much more important than the fear
of
> broken fingers should be that of broken heads. Note:in every
picture
> in my gallery I and my childeren and anyone ever allowed in my
Jeep
> wear 4pt harnesses under a Randy Ellis modified 6pt cage (yes that
is
> a picture of me and my friends 20years ago, before people
> seeking "more challenging trails" cut the landscape to shreds and
> when the Four Peaks trails could be counted) .
> The blanket statent ...."If you can't complete...without
stacking...
> DONT BELONG THERE" implicitly includes situations which require a
> winch (as these situations are usually much more severe). This
would
> mean everyone who ever stacked or used a winch was where they did
not
> belong (wouldn't this include nearly 100% of severE rock crawlers,
as
> I have yet to see a competiion where rocks were not stacked and/or
> winches were not used)?
>
> You say "It is imperrative theselands remain open to ALL", but it
is
> quite clear you wish to control who can or cannot even attempt
> certain trails. Having a highly equipped vehicle, you (of course)
> would be exempt and can, in search of a "challenge" attempt
anything
> with or without stacking/winching. Dosen't a "challenge"
implicitly
> include the possibilty of the need of assistance? Isn't it
> EVERYONE'S right to attempt a "challanging" trail?
>
> Bottom line IMHO:
>
> Pushing your limits (finding trails which provide a challenge) is
not
> a sin as long as you stop before exceeding your limits (jeez, isnt
> that what I did?). Although making / causing permanant damage is
> wrong, attempting challenging trails is largely what our sport is
> about and should be encouraged and ASSISTED by those who have the
> ability/experience (not bashed and heckled as "jealous wannabees"
in
> an effort to keep areas their own private domain).
>
> As hard as it has been to see areas I once hiked and hunted
covered
> with houses, NO ONE (sierra club or hard core specialist) has the
> right to tell ANYONE (who treats the enviroment with safety and
> respect) where they can or cannot go.
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <my1stjeep@e...> wrote:
> > Everyone has an opinion. You say you want to keep it open and we
> > ahve repeatedly been told rock stacking, creating by passes
etc...
> > due cause trail closures, so why would you go into a trail
knowing
> > either the vehicle or the driver cannot do it without rock
stacking?
> >
> > Yes sometimes it is needed to get by, but just as you talk about
> > preservation, they should be removed, it is a insane to even
think
> > paving would keep the trails open. If paved tails are what will
be
> > open then your logic would serve that not matter how many want
the
> > harder trails open we can kiss them good bye, they will close
them
> > and tell us the current paved trails are enough, is that your
> goal?
> > Do you want these trails closed so we can run everything in 2wd?
> >
> > I am at a loss for words for you to be calling anyone names,
> > especially from the person I see on every adgenda, every
meeting,
> at
> > every event to keep them open. She is simply reminding you
> (albight
> > passionately) of some of the reasons our trails are closed and
> since
> > you started off by implying rock stacking would be going on by
> > asking for attendees to bring a stong back, you touched of a
nerve
> > in alot of people here. Setting expectations to newcomers to
our
> > sport that going into a trail that your vehicle or the driver
> cannot
> > handle, but don't worry just stack rocks is not a very good way
to
> > start things off. It sets a bad example for newcomers not to
> > mention that someone could get hurt driving a pretty stock rig
> > through something like Sandy Beach or Anaconda or Anihilator
or ???
> > just cause they have the attitude they can stack their way out.
> >
> > I hope that you are aware of the land agencies thoughts on this,
> but
> > from your message and thoughts of what they deem damage I fear
you
> > do not. Before you go off on someone calling them names you
might
> > want to be sure of the facts that the items you are talking
about
> > are deemed damage, tire marks are not. I also hope you remove
the
> > rocks when you are done, you did not say either way, but I will
> give
> > you the benefit of the doubt.
> >
> > Keep in mind you should only do what it is safe for your vehicle
to
> > do, and a driver can make up for alot. However someone who
wants
> to
> > run NASCAR, but cannot afford all the equipment (or in our case
a
> > full blown rock crawling rig) will be stopped from running the
> race,
> > if you drive the Autobaughn and get caught with tires that don't
> > match the speed rating for how fast you were going you lose your
> > license to drive period, it is called safety. Stacking rocks
can
> > lead to broken fingers, pulled muscles, unearthed scorpions or
> other
> > creatures that can sting or bite you, the rocks can shift while
you
> > go over them and could even cause you to roll over and while
> > sometimes is it necessary as a last resort we should not go into
a
> > trail with the though process that we are going to do it just to
> get
> > through it. It is not safe and it is not a preserving mentality.
> >
> > JMO
> >
> > Chris
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
---
> -
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "olneyjeeps" <olneyjeeps@y...>
wrote:
> > > Thank you for showing your true colors - self ritcous pompus
> > > controlling wannabe get to tell everyone where they can or
cannot
> > go
> > > based on how you thought it would possibly change the run;
> > > As you may have been deaf and blind at the last blm meeting. I
> and
> > my
> > > family enjoy exploring what shrinking habatat there is. They
> > should
> > > not be limited to the hiking "elite". Nor should they be
limited
> > to
> > > the "extreeme four wheeler" My position is that these lands
must
> > > remain open (gonna lose some friende here) even if it has to
be
> > > paved.
> > >
> > > No One should have sole right to the beauty / solitude /
> > challange.
> > > This or any canyon is not for any one group. The more people
> that
> > > see theese trails, the more people will want to preserve it.
The
> > > trail is a trail, not your private playground. Not too long
ago
> > your
> > > house was bare desart, get rid of the stacking there so you
may
> > have
> > > your own private playground.
> > > AlthoughI do not advocate wheel spinning, rockstatking, or
> > winching
> > > thry do have their place in rare occasions, It is imperrative
> > these
> > > lands remain open to ALL (forgive me for yelling) and not just
> the
> > > owners of fab shops creating vehicles by whose standards leave
> 90%
> > of
> > > the club "not worthy" / wannabees (how many of you that dont'
> have
> > > 60's front and rear,4link airlockers, 44's etc realized you
were
> > just
> > > labeled a wanabe, and therefore, by Ms. McCullen's judgement
> owing
> > > gratitude for being allowed to travel the trails she and her
sons
> > no
> > > longer consider "challanging"? Maybe we should rent heavy
> > equipment
> > > and go in and tear up the trails so that no one (except Sandy
> and
> > > her sons) can enjoy.
> > >
> > > In response to your comment referring to my comment as "sounds
> > like
> > > like the green eye of
> > > > jealousy to me." Give me a break. There is not a speck
> > > (possesions, ability or otherwise) that you and your world
> > traveled
> > > multi lingual college educated kids and their "toys" have that
I
> > > would waste on starting a fire. My girls love spending time
with
> > me
> > > exploring in the Jeeps. I need nothing more to garner their
full
> > > love and devotion.
> > >
> > > Public land is public land. Just as I fight to keep the
Sierra
> > Club
> > > from blocking off land for a limited few, I resent Sandy and
> > others
> > > for claiming that they have exclusive right to any area.
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee McCullen"
<mccullen@c...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > OK........... my apologies in the use of "YOU". It was
meant
> > to be
> > > > directed at anyone that is into a trail they don't
belong.....
> > or
> > > those that
> > > > seem to believe PAVING is simply a way to allow them to go
> where
> > > they
> > > > please! Yes, caps indicate yelling or very strong
suggestion
> > and
> > > that is
> > > > exactly what I meant. I agree I was not there and I do
> > appreciate
> > > the fact
> > > > he did turn around, but he also slams the extreme wheeler
and
> > > indicated he
> > > > had as much right on those trails as anyone else. NO he
does
> > > not.........
> > > > not if it means the extreme wheeler has to lose any/all
> > challenge
> > > they have
> > > > because someone wants to "do what the big guys do". I'm so
> > tired
> > > of this
> > > > attitude and mentality. Just because someone builds a
vehicle
> > > capable of
> > > > doing almost anything does not make them "the big guy",
> > or "GOD",
> > > or anyone
> > > > any different than you, I or the first time 4-wheeler.
> > > >
> > > > There were comments comparing the "damage" the buggies or
rock
> > > crawlers do
> > > > ............ like leaving "semi-permanent marks" on the
rocks.
> > Or
> > > climbing
> > > > "near vertical obstacles"........ sounds like like the
green
> > eye of
> > > > jealousy to me. This is not damage........ paving or
making
> by-
> > > passes IS
> > > > damage and abuse and these actions are what will close ALL
our
> > > trails.
> > > > ......
> > > >
> > > > [As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the
semi
> > > > > >>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to
> > climb
> > > near
> > > > > >>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's
> > right
> > > to
> > > > > >>>> say where someone does or does not belong]
> > > >
> > > > This comes across to me as "I'll do as I
please"........ "it's
> > my
> > > right to
> > > > stack rocks as long as the day is long", "I don't do any
more
> > > damage than
> > > > the "rock scratchers" yada yada yada!! YES, it is MY RIGHT
if
> > > these kinds
> > > > of actions lose the only challenge I have within my sport!
> YES,
> > I
> > > AM
> > > > YELLING Chris............... there are way too many
> > recreationists
> > > out
> > > > there that simply do NOT get the picture. Too many ATV's
tear
> > > across
> > > > country, the 4-wheelers enter trails they are not capable of
> > doing,
> > > many
> > > > motorcycles go way to fast............... and we can't seem
to
> > > understand
> > > > "WHY" we're losing everything. The agencies simply do not
want
> > to
> > > deal with
> > > > the headaches of the recreationists not being
> > responsible. .....
> > > Before
> > > > you go off again, I'm not saying or claiming this Steve
> was "not"
> > > > responsible but his attitude is certainly in the grey area...
> > > > There are LARGE groups of agency planners that feel
the "graded
> > > gravel roads
> > > > should be enough for us". There are also LARGE numbers of
new
> > > personnel
> > > > joining the land management agencies and believe
> > me.............,
> > > for the
> > > > most part, they are GREEN!!! Everyone seems to be
> into "saving"
> > > something.
> > > > Our battles will not be getting easier and abuse such as
rock
> > > paving and
> > > > by-passes are the first issues to be held over us. We lost
> > > Jawbreaker
> > > > because of "rock paving"........ had vehicles going
> > > through "DErocked" the
> > > > obstacle after getting through the Tucson BLM wouldn't have
had
> > > anything to
> > > > present to the courts to show "abuse". Game & Fish are no
> > better.
> > > If it's
> > > > not wildlife habitat destruction, it's "messing up the
> > watershed"
> > > of the
> > > > area or rock stacking is showing to alter the flow because
it
> > tends
> > > to hold
> > > > silt or gravel instead of allowing it to wash down stream
etc
> etc
> > > > etc............. there's desert tortoise, or a lizard, or
> > beetle
> > > or a WEED.
> > > > They'll use anything they can to shut out OHV
> > recreation.........
> > > WHY do we
> > > > insist on hurting ourselves!!!?
> > > >
> > > > I am rambling and will continue to do so until ALL of my
fellow
> > 4-
> > > wheelers
> > > > finally understand that we each have our own level of
wheeling
> > and
> > > to mess
> > > > us someone elses challenge just to prove a point, will shut
us
> > all
> > > down.
> > > >
> > > > Sandee
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 5:40 PM
> > > > > To: Sandee McCullen
> > > > > Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I quote you:
> > > > >
> > > > > "If you cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with
> rocks
> > to
> > > > > enable you to get through or across an obstacle........
YOU
> > DON'T
> > > > > BELONG THERE!!"
> > > > >
> > > > > The use of "you" and the caps (internet yelling) make it
look
> > > like it
> > > > > was directed to him. Sorry if I misinterpreted this.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your points are all correct, but it is incorrect to use
them
> > > against
> > > > > Steve in this case, since we were not there and have no
idea
> > in
> > > what
> > > > > condition he left the trail.
> > > > >
> > > > > If we are going to preach, we should do it in a general
> > manner.
> > > It is
> > > > > unfair to use someone else's post about a run to further
our
> > > ideas,
> > > > > even if they are good ideas. To some, it will seem like we
> are
> > > bashing
> > > > > the post.
> > > > >
> > > > > I read Steve's post and thought it was very responsible
that
> > they
> > > did
> > > > > what they did. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that
they
> > > unstacked
> > > > > the rock. Remember, innocent until proven guilty works in
may
> > ways
> > > > > besides in a court of law, especially with friends and
fellow
> > > wheelers.
> > > > > It was pointed out to me in an email from another member
that
> > his
> > > > > also indicated that they might stack rocks if they go
back.
> > > Again, I
> > > > > give him the benefit of the doubt that they will unstack
them
> > as
> > > well.
> > > > > If they do not, then I will lose and my trust of him will
be
> > lost.
> > > > >
> > > > > Remember (and this is my final point since I don't want
this
> > to
> > > grow in
> > > > > to more than it has), if we were to never wheel on trails
> that
> > > there is
> > > > > the potential that we will have to stack rocks, most of us
> > would
> > > never
> > > > > leave the graded dirt road. That would be a shame.
> > > > >
> > > > > Chris
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 03:45 PM, Sandee
McCullen
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Chris, I don't think anyone "jumped down anyones
> > > throat".........
> > > > > > simply
> > > > > > stated "rock paving" is ruining our extreme trails and
is
> > > hurting us
> > > > > > all.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have NO PROBLEM with turning around when finding a
trail
> > is
> > > too
> > > > > > tough but
> > > > > > you and I both KNOW that there are waaaaaay too many
> > vehicles
> > > going
> > > > > > into
> > > > > > trails they KNOW they are not equipped to do without
> rocking
> > or
> > > making
> > > > > > by-passes! I hear over and over again....... "no
problem,
> > > we'll 'pull
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > through'". WHY???? Isn't actually "driving to the
> > individual
> > > > > > challenge"
> > > > > > what we're suppose to be about?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I didn't pretend to "be there" and I didn't accuse
anyone of
> > > > > > "semi-permanent" damage. Nor did I accuse the rock
> crawlers
> > of
> > > being
> > > > > > "GODS". My message was to EVERYONE that are doing
trails
> > above
> > > their
> > > > > > ability, rock paving or making by-passes to get through
to
> > stay
> > > within
> > > > > > their
> > > > > > own challenge limitations. These actions WILL affect
ALL
> of
> > us
> > > in the
> > > > > > near
> > > > > > future and it won't be what anyone wants to hear. This
> kind
> > of
> > > abuse
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > closing trails across the country. The agencies are
having
> > a
> > > tough
> > > > > > enough
> > > > > > time understanding the "challenge" of extreme 4-
wheeling,
> > but
> > > when all
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > see is the rock paving, by-passes, oil spills, and
> > vegetation
> > > winched
> > > > > > out of
> > > > > > the ground they simply declare "abuse and resource
damage"
> > and
> > > close
> > > > > > everything. It's going to take ALL of us to truly show
> > > RESPONSIBLE
> > > > > > use of
> > > > > > our recreation trails system................
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The responses from Todd and myself simply stated "to
stay
> on
> > > trails
> > > > > > within
> > > > > > individual vehicle and/or driver
> capabilities".............
> > or
> > > > > > "UNSTACK if
> > > > > > the need for rocks is called for".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sandee
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > > >> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> > > > > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 3:28 PM
> > > > > >> To: Sandee McCullen
> > > > > >> Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > >> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking
rocks
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Sandy and Todd, um, did either of you read his run
> > description?
> > > > > >> They turned around after deciding they were beyond
their
> > > capabilities.
> > > > > >> The rock stacking was done to get back out. No lectures
> > should
> > > be
> > > > > >> given
> > > > > >> because they had no idea what the trail ahead was like.
> > > > > >> In my opinion, they did the sensible thing. They gave
it a
> > try
> > > (aren't
> > > > > >> we all allowed to do this, it being public land and
all?)
> > and
> > > called
> > > > > >> it
> > > > > >> quits when it became apparent that it was beyond their
> > > capabilities.
> > > > > >> So
> > > > > >> a few rocks were stacked to get them back out. At least
> > they
> > > didn't
> > > > > >> just continue on and stack the entire trail as others
> > probably
> > > would
> > > > > >> have. Besides, he never said he didn't unstack them.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Everyone, please don't be so quick to jump down the
other
> > > guys/girls
> > > > > >> throat, ESPECIALLY if you weren't there or do not know
all
> > the
> > > facts.
> > > > > >> When you make assumptions without facts, you just make
> > > yourself look
> > > > > >> bad and create ill will in the group. We have enough
> > bickering
> > > here
> > > > > >> lately. Lets work to save our trails, not bicker about
who
> > can
> > > play
> > > > > >> where.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Just my $.02
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Chris
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 02:57 PM, Sandee
> McCullen
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing
> trails
> > > via ROCK
> > > > > >>> PAVING
> > > > > >>> needs to stop.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line
is
> > > simply: If
> > > > > >>> you
> > > > > >>> cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks
to
> > > enable you
> > > > > >>> to get
> > > > > >>> through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T
BELONG
> > > THERE!! The
> > > > > >>> "semi
> > > > > >>> permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do
> > > with "ruining a good
> > > > > >>> trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of
paving
> is
> > > what is
> > > > > >>> "ruining
> > > > > >>> the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now
and
> > then
> > > to
> > > > > >>> "help"
> > > > > >>> is
> > > > > >>> done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy
would
> > > have you
> > > > > >>> REMOVE
> > > > > >>> the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of
the
> > > obstacle.
> > > > > >>> There
> > > > > >>> are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge" for
> > every
> > > level of
> > > > > >>> 4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the extreme
> > > driver/vehicle
> > > > > >>> is
> > > > > >>> what is causing the problems and is what is in
discussion
> > > from your
> > > > > >>> message.
> > > > > >>> This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's ALL
of
> > > us.........
> > > > > >>> respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for
all.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock
> > crawling
> > > with
> > > > > >>> no,
> > > > > >>> or
> > > > > >>> very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS!
All
> > > they're
> > > > > >>> asking is
> > > > > >>> the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do
> > > whatever they
> > > > > >>> wish
> > > > > >>> STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are
not
> > > happy about
> > > > > >>> "rock
> > > > > >>> paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the
> watershed
> > or
> > > natural
> > > > > >>> layout
> > > > > >>> of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother Nature
> > does a
> > > good
> > > > > >>> job
> > > > > >>> of
> > > > > >>> keeping trails natural but some of the stacking/paving
> > > happening
> > > > > >>> today
> > > > > >>> is
> > > > > >>> well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
> > > > > >>> [FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in
> the
> > > bottom of
> > > > > >>> a
> > > > > >>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand
> cubic
> > > feet per
> > > > > >>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good
> > > trail."] This
> > > > > >>>> may
> > > > > >>> not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good
> > trail"
> > > but it
> > > > > >>> is
> > > > > >>> if
> > > > > >>> YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother
> > Nature
> > > may
> > > > > >>> make a
> > > > > >>> trail easier or harder but that should be left to
nature
> > NOT
> > > YOU or
> > > > > >>> other
> > > > > >>> want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have
been
> > > wheel'n
> > > > > >>> Arizona and
> > > > > >>> California since BEFORE the early 70's. For whatever
> > that's
> > > > > >>> worth??????
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Again, if you cannot traverse a trail or obstacle with
> > your
> > > vehicle,
> > > > > >>> winch,
> > > > > >>> tires and/or ability and have to rock PAVE....... You
> > don't
> > > belong
> > > > > >>> there.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Sandee
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > > > >>>> From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
> > > > > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:27 PM
> > > > > >>>> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > >>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it
> appears
> > > you would
> > > > > >>>> like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
> > > > > >>>> As it appears you coulden't read the first time from
> your
> > > throne:
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> 1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a reasonable /
> > > responsible
> > > > > >>>> driver) because I had determined that (at that time)
I
> > was
> > > not
> > > > > >>>> properly equiped and did not have the resources if I
> were
> > to
> > > get
> > > > > >>>> into
> > > > > >>>> trouble.
> > > > > >>>> 2) I did recommend / advise against attempting
without
> > lots
> > > of
> > > > > >>>> clearance.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
> > > > > >>>> "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
> > > > > >>>> As long as it is not causing long term damage (such
as
> > the
> > > semi
> > > > > >>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to
> > climb
> > > near
> > > > > >>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's
> > right
> > > to
> > > > > >>>> say where someone does or does not belong (I don't
> recall
> > > seeing you
> > > > > >>>> at the last BLM meeting either)
> > > > > >>>> FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in
the
> > > bottom of a
> > > > > >>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand
> cubic
> > > feet per
> > > > > >>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good
> > trail."
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it,
you
> do
> > > not belong
> > > > > >>>> on that trail."
> > > > > >>>> I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted (which
> I'm
> > > sure you
> > > > > >>>> always use before spinning all four gouging and
spiting
> > rock
> > > and
> > > > > >>>> admitting lack of ability to move unassisted). Let's
> > compare
> > > > > >>>> possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash
vs.
> > tire
> > > scars on
> > > > > >>>> vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng
attended
> > > several
> > > > > >>>> competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never stacked
a
> > rock
> > > or two
> > > > > >>>> for you, right?
> > > > > >>>> By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling / hiking
in
> > > this area
> > > > > >>>> since the early 70's; you?
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> See you at the next BLM meeting
> > > > > >>>> Steve
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>> Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
> > > > > >>>>> This trail has been run by experienced drivers and
rigs
> > > equipped to
> > > > > >>>> do it,
> > > > > >>>>> without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to
stack
> > > rocks 20
> > > > > >>>> yards into
> > > > > >>>>> it, you do not belong on that trail.
> > > > > >>>>> There are plenty of trails out there for everyones
> level.
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> Todd
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Earlier this year, after talking with many people
and
> > > surveying
> > > > > >>>>> from
> > > > > >>>>>> the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
> > > > > >>>>>> The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is
> really
> > > really
> > > > > >>>>> really
> > > > > >>>>>> nasty. Because the other members of the group did
not
> > > want to go
> > > > > >>>> further,
> > > > > >>>>>> I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only
the
> > first
> > > 20-30
> > > > > >>>> yards; it
> > > > > >>>>>> took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of
> > stacking+
> > > body
> > > > > >>>> damage to
> > > > > >>>>>> get back out.
> > > > > >>>>>> I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint
> > hint)
> > > but
> > > > > >>>>> required
> > > > > >>>>>> equipment would be:
> > > > > >>>>>> minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage
probable)
> > > > > >>>>>> Front and rear lockers
> > > > > >>>>>> winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
> > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>> Call if interested
> > > > > >>>>>> Steve Olney
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>>
> > >
__________________________________________________ _______________
> > > > > >>>>> From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite
> > music
> > > is always
> > > > > >>>> playing
> > > > > >>>>> on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE!
> > > > > >>>>> http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > > >>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > > >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
94362 From: Bob Jacques <bjacques@m...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:17am
Subject: RE: Re: [TR] Table Mesa Area - Saturday, January 31, 200 4
Matt, would you be willing to take the ball and run with it on this one,
Please?? I've gotten some good materials from Sandee for handouts, but
could still use more... Thx, Bob J
-----Original Message-----
From: robert_j_rogers2 [mailto:robert.rogers@h...]
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 7:49 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: [TR] Table Mesa Area - Saturday, January 31, 2004
It looks as if the AZVJC will get its name put on this one! The
Phoenix Four Wheelers are too busy too handle the Clean-up with
restarting thier Roundup next March. I thought it would look good if
the AZVJC coordinated it this year. THE BLM, ASTLD, and Parks have
all responded so it looks as if the show is on. Sent notices to the
ASA4WDC quarterly meeting to invite ALL of the sanctioned clubs (the
AZVJC logo is at the top of the notice). Will post the notice for
download and printing, so please spread the word.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
94363 From: Dave Peterson <gonzodave@y...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:31am
Subject: Re: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Oops... I think this might have been the "one more post" - now T.J. will
have all the rocks at his house.
Gonzo
--- CANT W8 <rlpii@q...> wrote:
> Well, at least the name calling has stopped and the posts are getting
> a little lighter and funnier. <smile>
> Bob
> 74 CJ-5
> CANT W8
>
> -- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, NVRSTUKXJ@a... wrote:
> > If I see one more post on this subject, I'm going to go out and take
> EVERY
> > rock on EVERY trail and go home......
> >
> > T.J. Gill
> > 75 CJ5 w/Stuff
> > 90 XJ w/Stuff Too
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
94364 From: intertwingled <intertwingled@q...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:47am
Subject: Re: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Yes, but what happens when you drop a rock on an earth cookie? =)
Tony
Marty wrote:
> Man and I thought the green peace guys liked to cry
>and moan about every thing.You guys are way worse.I
>vote we change the name to the Arizona Virtual Jeep
>Crybabies.:~)
>Marty
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
>http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
94365 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:48am
Subject: RE: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
You go Chris!! LOL kick that horse!!! :)
Joey K
93YJ
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris [mailto:my1stjeep@e...]
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 8:25 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Mr. Onley,
I nowhere implied of the items you accuse, I think you need to get
your mind reading abilities checked. I stated it is not a good
idea, I also stated if they are stacked and yes I did agree that
sometimes it is necessary, maybe you should re-read a post before
replying. Please be sure to get your facts straight before you make
accusations that are completely unfounded.
I never stated if you have to stack rock you don't belong there,
mistakes happen and yes you may take a line and slip off and it is
necessary, however my statement was (again get your facts straight)
that if you are going into a trail with the mindset that you are
going to have to (not as an option and I believe I did say it was ok
to use as a last resort, again read the posts before responding)
than you should not being do the trail.
Let us look at the implications of your post which has lead to this
discussion. Some of those facts you left of your response.
Two in particular are what has started this whole thing:
The last time you ran the trail, you were the only one to try it,
you got so far in and decided to turn around, rock stacking had to
take place to get out and you did get body damage. I respect the
fact that you had to stack rocks and you got in over your head, you
made a smart move and retreated, I did give you the benefit of the
doubt while it was never stated, that you remove the rocks that you
stack as to keep from the area becoming paved.
You then asked for attendees on your next trip to have strong backs,
implies you are already assuming that you will be stacking rocks to
get through it as you don't think you can any other way.
Then another comment in a future email (this is the one that finally
got me to reply) was your comment about so be it if we have to pave
them you were all for it. Then I see in the email below you are
against it, which is it??????????
If you had understood my comments (or that mind reading thing you
think you have for implications was working) I said it was ok to
stack rocks if necessary, if you get into a situation where there is
not another option, but going into a trail where you are going to
stack rocks just to make it easy enough is wrong.
I alos think you are mixing up your responses, as I never called
anyone a Jealous Wanna Be, guess reading my post a second time might
have helped you understand who wrote what. Again I ask you to get
your facts straight and if you respond to what I write, keep it that
way, don't bring in other posts information.
Have a nice day and happy wheeling.
Chris "never implied jack about being a perfect wheeler"
---------------------------------------------------------------------
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "olneyjeeps" <olneyjeeps@y...> wrote:
> as a clarification to my previous post (made at 3am due to a local
> power outage)
> I do not, did not and never will condone "paving"
> "you started off by implying rock stacking would be going on by
> > asking for attendees to bring a stong back, you touched of a
nerve
> > in alot of people here. Setting expectations to newcomers to
our
> > sport that going into a trail that your vehicle or the driver
> cannot
> > handle, but don't worry just stack rocks is not a very good way
to
> > start things off"
> Just as a reminder, let's read what I said:
> "required
> > equipment would be:
> > minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
> > Front and rear lockers
> > winch + hooks
> > strong back (rocks are heavy)"
>
> If, in attempting any "challenging trail", you are not prepared /
> able to move a rock or two (as you imply you never have), or use a
> winch, in the event of a missed line (as you imply you never
have),
> then you are bound to get in trouble (as you imply you never
have).
> I never said anyone did not belong there (the last trip,
exploritory
> in nature, included a TJ with 31's... are you saying he was not
> entitled to come as far as he could (yes we pulled him off a rock
he
> misjudged 1.5 miles in) to watch/assist?). To join THIS trip, I
did
> not want anyone who could not "pull his own weight" in the event
of a
> minor mishap. You have the same right to exclude people from trips
> YOU lead, NOT from an area (unless of course you have full
> title/ownership of said area).
>
> The rocks whick were moved (I believe the total count was 3 or 4)
> were to get me off a rock on which I had become high centered
caused
> by unfortunate slip off line which countless people have done,
> even/especially the "hard core" . If you read the trip
> report/description, you would have read that the trip was
exploritory
> only with little/no expectation of completion (expected / planned
to
> walk trail). The trip was not made to seek "challanging terrain"
(I
> avoid trips (expecially with my daughter) of this sort because it
has
> been my experience that this is when most trail damge occours and
I
> try to avoid situations which would but me or others in danger),
but
> to enjoy the incredibly scenic views.
> Although trail damage is inexcusable and should never be
encouraged
> or condoned, I do take particular offence to anyone (sierra club
or
> hard core 4wheeler, no matter how involved they may be) who wishes
to
> claim sole access to any area. To answer your points: NASCAR is
> privatly owned and operated and can make its own rules. Although
> there are very strict regulations for driving on the Autobahn
(alle
> Deutsche Strasse),improper tire rating does not (unless a new law
is
> in effect since my last visit) cause the loss of license for a
year.
>
> As for forbiding any type of rock stacking because of safety
(whether
> rocks were replaced or not), because it is part of nearly every
> competition,this would eliminate most every competion held.
> As your use safety to further your agenda (god forbid someone
should
> break a finger), vehicles should be banned if not properly fitted
> with proper safety equipment. Much more important than the fear
of
> broken fingers should be that of broken heads. Note:in every
picture
> in my gallery I and my childeren and anyone ever allowed in my
Jeep
> wear 4pt harnesses under a Randy Ellis modified 6pt cage (yes that
is
> a picture of me and my friends 20years ago, before people
> seeking "more challenging trails" cut the landscape to shreds and
> when the Four Peaks trails could be counted) .
> The blanket statent ...."If you can't complete...without
stacking...
> DONT BELONG THERE" implicitly includes situations which require a
> winch (as these situations are usually much more severe). This
would
> mean everyone who ever stacked or used a winch was where they did
not
> belong (wouldn't this include nearly 100% of severE rock crawlers,
as
> I have yet to see a competiion where rocks were not stacked and/or
> winches were not used)?
>
> You say "It is imperrative theselands remain open to ALL", but it
is
> quite clear you wish to control who can or cannot even attempt
> certain trails. Having a highly equipped vehicle, you (of course)
> would be exempt and can, in search of a "challenge" attempt
anything
> with or without stacking/winching. Dosen't a "challenge"
implicitly
> include the possibilty of the need of assistance? Isn't it
> EVERYONE'S right to attempt a "challanging" trail?
>
> Bottom line IMHO:
>
> Pushing your limits (finding trails which provide a challenge) is
not
> a sin as long as you stop before exceeding your limits (jeez, isnt
> that what I did?). Although making / causing permanant damage is
> wrong, attempting challenging trails is largely what our sport is
> about and should be encouraged and ASSISTED by those who have the
> ability/experience (not bashed and heckled as "jealous wannabees"
in
> an effort to keep areas their own private domain).
>
> As hard as it has been to see areas I once hiked and hunted
covered
> with houses, NO ONE (sierra club or hard core specialist) has the
> right to tell ANYONE (who treats the enviroment with safety and
> respect) where they can or cannot go.
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <my1stjeep@e...> wrote:
> > Everyone has an opinion. You say you want to keep it open and we
> > ahve repeatedly been told rock stacking, creating by passes
etc...
> > due cause trail closures, so why would you go into a trail
knowing
> > either the vehicle or the driver cannot do it without rock
stacking?
> >
> > Yes sometimes it is needed to get by, but just as you talk about
> > preservation, they should be removed, it is a insane to even
think
> > paving would keep the trails open. If paved tails are what will
be
> > open then your logic would serve that not matter how many want
the
> > harder trails open we can kiss them good bye, they will close
them
> > and tell us the current paved trails are enough, is that your
> goal?
> > Do you want these trails closed so we can run everything in 2wd?
> >
> > I am at a loss for words for you to be calling anyone names,
> > especially from the person I see on every adgenda, every
meeting,
> at
> > every event to keep them open. She is simply reminding you
> (albight
> > passionately) of some of the reasons our trails are closed and
> since
> > you started off by implying rock stacking would be going on by
> > asking for attendees to bring a stong back, you touched of a
nerve
> > in alot of people here. Setting expectations to newcomers to
our
> > sport that going into a trail that your vehicle or the driver
> cannot
> > handle, but don't worry just stack rocks is not a very good way
to
> > start things off. It sets a bad example for newcomers not to
> > mention that someone could get hurt driving a pretty stock rig
> > through something like Sandy Beach or Anaconda or Anihilator
or ???
> > just cause they have the attitude they can stack their way out.
> >
> > I hope that you are aware of the land agencies thoughts on this,
> but
> > from your message and thoughts of what they deem damage I fear
you
> > do not. Before you go off on someone calling them names you
might
> > want to be sure of the facts that the items you are talking
about
> > are deemed damage, tire marks are not. I also hope you remove
the
> > rocks when you are done, you did not say either way, but I will
> give
> > you the benefit of the doubt.
> >
> > Keep in mind you should only do what it is safe for your vehicle
to
> > do, and a driver can make up for alot. However someone who
wants
> to
> > run NASCAR, but cannot afford all the equipment (or in our case
a
> > full blown rock crawling rig) will be stopped from running the
> race,
> > if you drive the Autobaughn and get caught with tires that don't
> > match the speed rating for how fast you were going you lose your
> > license to drive period, it is called safety. Stacking rocks
can
> > lead to broken fingers, pulled muscles, unearthed scorpions or
> other
> > creatures that can sting or bite you, the rocks can shift while
you
> > go over them and could even cause you to roll over and while
> > sometimes is it necessary as a last resort we should not go into
a
> > trail with the though process that we are going to do it just to
> get
> > through it. It is not safe and it is not a preserving mentality.
> >
> > JMO
> >
> > Chris
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
---
> -
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "olneyjeeps" <olneyjeeps@y...>
wrote:
> > > Thank you for showing your true colors - self ritcous pompus
> > > controlling wannabe get to tell everyone where they can or
cannot
> > go
> > > based on how you thought it would possibly change the run;
> > > As you may have been deaf and blind at the last blm meeting. I
> and
> > my
> > > family enjoy exploring what shrinking habatat there is. They
> > should
> > > not be limited to the hiking "elite". Nor should they be
limited
> > to
> > > the "extreeme four wheeler" My position is that these lands
must
> > > remain open (gonna lose some friende here) even if it has to
be
> > > paved.
> > >
> > > No One should have sole right to the beauty / solitude /
> > challange.
> > > This or any canyon is not for any one group. The more people
> that
> > > see theese trails, the more people will want to preserve it.
The
> > > trail is a trail, not your private playground. Not too long
ago
> > your
> > > house was bare desart, get rid of the stacking there so you
may
> > have
> > > your own private playground.
> > > AlthoughI do not advocate wheel spinning, rockstatking, or
> > winching
> > > thry do have their place in rare occasions, It is imperrative
> > these
> > > lands remain open to ALL (forgive me for yelling) and not just
> the
> > > owners of fab shops creating vehicles by whose standards leave
> 90%
> > of
> > > the club "not worthy" / wannabees (how many of you that dont'
> have
> > > 60's front and rear,4link airlockers, 44's etc realized you
were
> > just
> > > labeled a wanabe, and therefore, by Ms. McCullen's judgement
> owing
> > > gratitude for being allowed to travel the trails she and her
sons
> > no
> > > longer consider "challanging"? Maybe we should rent heavy
> > equipment
> > > and go in and tear up the trails so that no one (except Sandy
> and
> > > her sons) can enjoy.
> > >
> > > In response to your comment referring to my comment as "sounds
> > like
> > > like the green eye of
> > > > jealousy to me." Give me a break. There is not a speck
> > > (possesions, ability or otherwise) that you and your world
> > traveled
> > > multi lingual college educated kids and their "toys" have that
I
> > > would waste on starting a fire. My girls love spending time
with
> > me
> > > exploring in the Jeeps. I need nothing more to garner their
full
> > > love and devotion.
> > >
> > > Public land is public land. Just as I fight to keep the
Sierra
> > Club
> > > from blocking off land for a limited few, I resent Sandy and
> > others
> > > for claiming that they have exclusive right to any area.
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee McCullen"
<mccullen@c...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > OK........... my apologies in the use of "YOU". It was
meant
> > to be
> > > > directed at anyone that is into a trail they don't
belong.....
> > or
> > > those that
> > > > seem to believe PAVING is simply a way to allow them to go
> where
> > > they
> > > > please! Yes, caps indicate yelling or very strong
suggestion
> > and
> > > that is
> > > > exactly what I meant. I agree I was not there and I do
> > appreciate
> > > the fact
> > > > he did turn around, but he also slams the extreme wheeler
and
> > > indicated he
> > > > had as much right on those trails as anyone else. NO he
does
> > > not.........
> > > > not if it means the extreme wheeler has to lose any/all
> > challenge
> > > they have
> > > > because someone wants to "do what the big guys do". I'm so
> > tired
> > > of this
> > > > attitude and mentality. Just because someone builds a
vehicle
> > > capable of
> > > > doing almost anything does not make them "the big guy",
> > or "GOD",
> > > or anyone
> > > > any different than you, I or the first time 4-wheeler.
> > > >
> > > > There were comments comparing the "damage" the buggies or
rock
> > > crawlers do
> > > > ............ like leaving "semi-permanent marks" on the
rocks.
> > Or
> > > climbing
> > > > "near vertical obstacles"........ sounds like like the
green
> > eye of
> > > > jealousy to me. This is not damage........ paving or
making
> by-
> > > passes IS
> > > > damage and abuse and these actions are what will close ALL
our
> > > trails.
> > > > ......
> > > >
> > > > [As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the
semi
> > > > > >>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to
> > climb
> > > near
> > > > > >>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's
> > right
> > > to
> > > > > >>>> say where someone does or does not belong]
> > > >
> > > > This comes across to me as "I'll do as I
please"........ "it's
> > my
> > > right to
> > > > stack rocks as long as the day is long", "I don't do any
more
> > > damage than
> > > > the "rock scratchers" yada yada yada!! YES, it is MY RIGHT
if
> > > these kinds
> > > > of actions lose the only challenge I have within my sport!
> YES,
> > I
> > > AM
> > > > YELLING Chris............... there are way too many
> > recreationists
> > > out
> > > > there that simply do NOT get the picture. Too many ATV's
tear
> > > across
> > > > country, the 4-wheelers enter trails they are not capable of
> > doing,
> > > many
> > > > motorcycles go way to fast............... and we can't seem
to
> > > understand
> > > > "WHY" we're losing everything. The agencies simply do not
want
> > to
> > > deal with
> > > > the headaches of the recreationists not being
> > responsible. .....
> > > Before
> > > > you go off again, I'm not saying or claiming this Steve
> was "not"
> > > > responsible but his attitude is certainly in the grey area...
> > > > There are LARGE groups of agency planners that feel
the "graded
> > > gravel roads
> > > > should be enough for us". There are also LARGE numbers of
new
> > > personnel
> > > > joining the land management agencies and believe
> > me.............,
> > > for the
> > > > most part, they are GREEN!!! Everyone seems to be
> into "saving"
> > > something.
> > > > Our battles will not be getting easier and abuse such as
rock
> > > paving and
> > > > by-passes are the first issues to be held over us. We lost
> > > Jawbreaker
> > > > because of "rock paving"........ had vehicles going
> > > through "DErocked" the
> > > > obstacle after getting through the Tucson BLM wouldn't have
had
> > > anything to
> > > > present to the courts to show "abuse". Game & Fish are no
> > better.
> > > If it's
> > > > not wildlife habitat destruction, it's "messing up the
> > watershed"
> > > of the
> > > > area or rock stacking is showing to alter the flow because
it
> > tends
> > > to hold
> > > > silt or gravel instead of allowing it to wash down stream
etc
> etc
> > > > etc............. there's desert tortoise, or a lizard, or
> > beetle
> > > or a WEED.
> > > > They'll use anything they can to shut out OHV
> > recreation.........
> > > WHY do we
> > > > insist on hurting ourselves!!!?
> > > >
> > > > I am rambling and will continue to do so until ALL of my
fellow
> > 4-
> > > wheelers
> > > > finally understand that we each have our own level of
wheeling
> > and
> > > to mess
> > > > us someone elses challenge just to prove a point, will shut
us
> > all
> > > down.
> > > >
> > > > Sandee
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 5:40 PM
> > > > > To: Sandee McCullen
> > > > > Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I quote you:
> > > > >
> > > > > "If you cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with
> rocks
> > to
> > > > > enable you to get through or across an obstacle........
YOU
> > DON'T
> > > > > BELONG THERE!!"
> > > > >
> > > > > The use of "you" and the caps (internet yelling) make it
look
> > > like it
> > > > > was directed to him. Sorry if I misinterpreted this.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your points are all correct, but it is incorrect to use
them
> > > against
> > > > > Steve in this case, since we were not there and have no
idea
> > in
> > > what
> > > > > condition he left the trail.
> > > > >
> > > > > If we are going to preach, we should do it in a general
> > manner.
> > > It is
> > > > > unfair to use someone else's post about a run to further
our
> > > ideas,
> > > > > even if they are good ideas. To some, it will seem like we
> are
> > > bashing
> > > > > the post.
> > > > >
> > > > > I read Steve's post and thought it was very responsible
that
> > they
> > > did
> > > > > what they did. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that
they
> > > unstacked
> > > > > the rock. Remember, innocent until proven guilty works in
may
> > ways
> > > > > besides in a court of law, especially with friends and
fellow
> > > wheelers.
> > > > > It was pointed out to me in an email from another member
that
> > his
> > > > > also indicated that they might stack rocks if they go
back.
> > > Again, I
> > > > > give him the benefit of the doubt that they will unstack
them
> > as
> > > well.
> > > > > If they do not, then I will lose and my trust of him will
be
> > lost.
> > > > >
> > > > > Remember (and this is my final point since I don't want
this
> > to
> > > grow in
> > > > > to more than it has), if we were to never wheel on trails
> that
> > > there is
> > > > > the potential that we will have to stack rocks, most of us
> > would
> > > never
> > > > > leave the graded dirt road. That would be a shame.
> > > > >
> > > > > Chris
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 03:45 PM, Sandee
McCullen
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Chris, I don't think anyone "jumped down anyones
> > > throat".........
> > > > > > simply
> > > > > > stated "rock paving" is ruining our extreme trails and
is
> > > hurting us
> > > > > > all.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have NO PROBLEM with turning around when finding a
trail
> > is
> > > too
> > > > > > tough but
> > > > > > you and I both KNOW that there are waaaaaay too many
> > vehicles
> > > going
> > > > > > into
> > > > > > trails they KNOW they are not equipped to do without
> rocking
> > or
> > > making
> > > > > > by-passes! I hear over and over again....... "no
problem,
> > > we'll 'pull
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > through'". WHY???? Isn't actually "driving to the
> > individual
> > > > > > challenge"
> > > > > > what we're suppose to be about?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I didn't pretend to "be there" and I didn't accuse
anyone of
> > > > > > "semi-permanent" damage. Nor did I accuse the rock
> crawlers
> > of
> > > being
> > > > > > "GODS". My message was to EVERYONE that are doing
trails
> > above
> > > their
> > > > > > ability, rock paving or making by-passes to get through
to
> > stay
> > > within
> > > > > > their
> > > > > > own challenge limitations. These actions WILL affect
ALL
> of
> > us
> > > in the
> > > > > > near
> > > > > > future and it won't be what anyone wants to hear. This
> kind
> > of
> > > abuse
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > closing trails across the country. The agencies are
having
> > a
> > > tough
> > > > > > enough
> > > > > > time understanding the "challenge" of extreme 4-
wheeling,
> > but
> > > when all
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > see is the rock paving, by-passes, oil spills, and
> > vegetation
> > > winched
> > > > > > out of
> > > > > > the ground they simply declare "abuse and resource
damage"
> > and
> > > close
> > > > > > everything. It's going to take ALL of us to truly show
> > > RESPONSIBLE
> > > > > > use of
> > > > > > our recreation trails system................
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The responses from Todd and myself simply stated "to
stay
> on
> > > trails
> > > > > > within
> > > > > > individual vehicle and/or driver
> capabilities".............
> > or
> > > > > > "UNSTACK if
> > > > > > the need for rocks is called for".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sandee
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > > >> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> > > > > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 3:28 PM
> > > > > >> To: Sandee McCullen
> > > > > >> Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > >> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking
rocks
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Sandy and Todd, um, did either of you read his run
> > description?
> > > > > >> They turned around after deciding they were beyond
their
> > > capabilities.
> > > > > >> The rock stacking was done to get back out. No lectures
> > should
> > > be
> > > > > >> given
> > > > > >> because they had no idea what the trail ahead was like.
> > > > > >> In my opinion, they did the sensible thing. They gave
it a
> > try
> > > (aren't
> > > > > >> we all allowed to do this, it being public land and
all?)
> > and
> > > called
> > > > > >> it
> > > > > >> quits when it became apparent that it was beyond their
> > > capabilities.
> > > > > >> So
> > > > > >> a few rocks were stacked to get them back out. At least
> > they
> > > didn't
> > > > > >> just continue on and stack the entire trail as others
> > probably
> > > would
> > > > > >> have. Besides, he never said he didn't unstack them.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Everyone, please don't be so quick to jump down the
other
> > > guys/girls
> > > > > >> throat, ESPECIALLY if you weren't there or do not know
all
> > the
> > > facts.
> > > > > >> When you make assumptions without facts, you just make
> > > yourself look
> > > > > >> bad and create ill will in the group. We have enough
> > bickering
> > > here
> > > > > >> lately. Lets work to save our trails, not bicker about
who
> > can
> > > play
> > > > > >> where.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Just my $.02
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Chris
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 02:57 PM, Sandee
> McCullen
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing
> trails
> > > via ROCK
> > > > > >>> PAVING
> > > > > >>> needs to stop.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line
is
> > > simply: If
> > > > > >>> you
> > > > > >>> cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks
to
> > > enable you
> > > > > >>> to get
> > > > > >>> through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T
BELONG
> > > THERE!! The
> > > > > >>> "semi
> > > > > >>> permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do
> > > with "ruining a good
> > > > > >>> trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of
paving
> is
> > > what is
> > > > > >>> "ruining
> > > > > >>> the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now
and
> > then
> > > to
> > > > > >>> "help"
> > > > > >>> is
> > > > > >>> done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy
would
> > > have you
> > > > > >>> REMOVE
> > > > > >>> the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of
the
> > > obstacle.
> > > > > >>> There
> > > > > >>> are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge" for
> > every
> > > level of
> > > > > >>> 4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the extreme
> > > driver/vehicle
> > > > > >>> is
> > > > > >>> what is causing the problems and is what is in
discussion
> > > from your
> > > > > >>> message.
> > > > > >>> This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's ALL
of
> > > us.........
> > > > > >>> respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for
all.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock
> > crawling
> > > with
> > > > > >>> no,
> > > > > >>> or
> > > > > >>> very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS!
All
> > > they're
> > > > > >>> asking is
> > > > > >>> the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do
> > > whatever they
> > > > > >>> wish
> > > > > >>> STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are
not
> > > happy about
> > > > > >>> "rock
> > > > > >>> paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the
> watershed
> > or
> > > natural
> > > > > >>> layout
> > > > > >>> of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother Nature
> > does a
> > > good
> > > > > >>> job
> > > > > >>> of
> > > > > >>> keeping trails natural but some of the stacking/paving
> > > happening
> > > > > >>> today
> > > > > >>> is
> > > > > >>> well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
> > > > > >>> [FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in
> the
> > > bottom of
> > > > > >>> a
> > > > > >>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand
> cubic
> > > feet per
> > > > > >>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good
> > > trail."] This
> > > > > >>>> may
> > > > > >>> not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good
> > trail"
> > > but it
> > > > > >>> is
> > > > > >>> if
> > > > > >>> YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother
> > Nature
> > > may
> > > > > >>> make a
> > > > > >>> trail easier or harder but that should be left to
nature
> > NOT
> > > YOU or
> > > > > >>> other
> > > > > >>> want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have
been
> > > wheel'n
> > > > > >>> Arizona and
> > > > > >>> Califor