Yahoo Messages: 94294-94318 [Archive]

blooddrive

01-09-2004, 05:11 AM

94294-94318

94294 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 7:25am
Subject: [TR] Technical Workshop - Sunday, November 16, 2003 - Reminder

Hello All,Joe West is leading a Technical Workshop trail run on Sunday, November 16, 2003. When: 8am
Where: My home located at 649 South 30th Circle, Mesa Arizona 85204. Yahoo maps will provide a great map which will bring you directly to my home.
Rating: 2.0-
Length: Finished by Noon
CB Channel:

10/25/2003 Update:

The workshop will be held on November 16th.
Added more paid names.

Joe West

10/22/03 Update:

Hi Gang,

The following list of individuals have signed up for the kill switch seminar, for those of you marked as "Not Paid" you need to send out a check asap. For those of you marked Tentative... please either remove your name or mark yourself as definite.
This will be the largest class we've done yet, and I need your help in keeping it organized.

I will have to order the switches and wire soon in order to have it here on time... please make sending out your checks (please; checks only... no paypal... cashiers checks/money orders are NOT necessary)

Kind Regards,

Joe West

T.J. Gill Not Paid
Kevin & Kelly Hopstaken Paid
Dallas Hathaway Not Paid
Rick Beer Paid
Bill Scheller Paid
Jim Cassaday Not Paid
mark current Not Paid
Mike Matteson With Michelle Not Paid
Wayne Keilholtz Not Paid
Josepp Rutkowski Not Paid
Kent Harman Not Paid
Ken Shipley Not Paid
Kevin Kilroy Paid
Rob Bolin sr. Not Paid
mark engdahl Paid
Bob Smith Paid
Brandon Smith Paid
Pat O'Neil Not Paid
Dave Kengott Paid
Mike Fissel Paid
George Lemley Paid
Matt OBrien Paid
Mike Wilmarth Paid
Al Pioquinto Paid
Erik Hays Not Paid
Wayne Hunter Paid
LC Lay Paid
The Jeeper formerly known as Purple Paid

Original Run Post:

This is the fourth Kill Switch workshop.

We will be installing stand-alone kill switches on all vehicles. 
 
The cost for the workshop will be $20 per person and will include everything you need to install a kill switch. 
 
The workshop can hold approximately 30 vehicles. 
 
More details will follow as the time for the workshop gets closer. 
 

I will continue to schedule kill switch technical workshops every few months until everyone who wants to have an anti-theft kill switch installed has one. I will then schedule them once a year or so. I still have people contacting me who want to install a kill switch so I have scheduled this fourth workshop for Sunday, November 16th at 9:00am.

This is kill switch technical workshop number 4. The purpose of this workshop is threefold:

1. To keep your rig from being a theft statistic.
2. To show you how easy it is to install a kill switch.
3. To spend some fun time just hanging out with Jeepers.

I have picked a date for the fourth kill-switch workshop a few months out to enable people to sign up over a longer period of time. I will update the information in this run as necessary, but for the most part all of the information you will need is here. The limit for the number of rigs we can fit in my yard and cul-de-sac is 30 so this will be the maximum number of people who can sign up. Please note that YOU will be doing the work in this workshop and I will be guiding, assisting, teaching, and testing your installs (and fixing any problems which may occur).

The price for the kill switch alone is $20, and includes everything you will need to install the switch.

Please note: I am NOT making any money on the kill switches and hood locks... the charge just covers the cost of the hardware with a couple of dollars extra thrown in to cover supplies. I do this workshop for fun and to help people out... not to make money.

Unfortunately, because of problems I had with purchasing hoodlock/killswitches for people who didn't show and didn't pay (leaving me stuck with the hardware), it will be necessary for people to pay in advance. To pay for your kill switch, sign up for this run and then send a check for the appropriate amount to my home address shown below. In the memo area on your check, please put kill switch. No matter how early you send out your payment, I will not cash the check until I actually purchase the kill switch.

The kill switch type will be determined by the year, make, and model of the Jeep being fitted with the switch. For those members with Wranglers/CJs and other SWB Jeeps with no hood locks, I will encourage a group buy of a hood lock kill switch combination. Once I determine how many people sign up and what kind of vehicles they have, I will put together a list of required materials and purchase them for everyone. Individual members can choose what kind of kill switch they want or I will determine it for them based on vehicle type if they have no preference. I will provide all tools and will purchase bulk materials (wires, switches, solder, connectors, electrical tape, zip ties, etc) which everyone will split the cost of. If you are interested, please sign up.

VERY IMPORTANT:
All Participants in the clinic MUST give me the following information:

1. Year and model of vehicle on which we will be installing the kill switch
2. Do you have a FACTORY service manual OR a service manual with wiring schematics for your vehicle?
3. Which of the following tools can you bring: drill, drill bits, wire cutters, metric and/or standard socket set, wire strippers, wire crimpers, nylon ties, electrical tape, soldering iron/solder, long extension cords, multi-outlet adaptors/short extension cords, volt-ohm meters or DVM, blowdryer (for heat-shrink tubing).

VERY VERY IMPORTANT:

My home address is:

649 S. 30th Circle, Mesa, Arizona 85204.
 
My home phone is:
(480) 325-9419

My cell phone is:
(602) 616-0785

You can obtain very good directions from Yahoo maps... but a brief set of directions are as follows:

Take 60 headed East and get off on Gilbert Road.
Head North on Gilbert Road (Left) to Broadway Road.
Head East on Broadway (right) to 30th street (30th street is the FIRST residential street you can make a right on just past the light at Lindsay... do not turn into the small community just east of Walgreens.
Head South (right) on 30th Street.
30th Street dead ends in my Cul-De-Sac and my home is the one with all the palm trees in the yard.

PLEASE PLEASE park along 30th street and WALK to my home. The reason that I am asking this is because I want to group like vehicles together to simplify installations. After everyone parks along 30th street, I will have a short meeting on my front porch and then I will ask all YJ owners to go get their vehicles and we will place them in one location in my yard. I will then ask all TJ owners to go get their vehicles and will park them in another location... and so on until all vehicle types are grouped together in my yard or cul-de-sac.

After everyone is grouped together, I will walk everyone through the steps of installing kill switches... and we will work together as a team to get them installed. To avoid having any electrical problems, you will be required to disconnect the positive lead on your battery BEFORE we do any work on your vehicle.

Please plan on bringing a cooler with drinks, cups and/or snacks if you will need them.

I will post this entire post to the "trip" on Azvjc.org if people need to reference it at a later date.

If you have suggestions and you see something I have forgotten, please let me know.

And last but not least, if you would like to come hang out and HELP or just watch and learn... I'm sure we could use all the help we can get. Everyone interested is welcome to show up.

If you have any questions, please contact me via email at:

joe.west@d...

Kind Regards,

Joe West

Technical workshops happen every once in a while and are intended as a "How To" class.

http://www.azvjc.org/default.asp?A=1&ID=904
Click the link above To Add Your Name to the Sign Up List
Thank You,

- The AzVJC Website

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ADVERTISEMENT

94295 From: jeepmom <jeepmom@c...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:10am
Subject: Re: someone tell me about camping

Hmmm strange we have gone the past two weekends and it didn't resemble a
freeway at all. Very peaceful and we saw only one quad eeer let me rephrase
"heard" one quad where we camped. I don't know how far any of you that are
making comments have been but if anyone would like to know the route we took
myself or my husband Tony would be more then happy to let you know.
Annie Axtell
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Rogers" <skijunkie@c...>
To: "azvjc" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 12:42 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] someone tell me about camping

94296 From: Chris <my1stjeep@e...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:25am
Subject: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks

Everyone has an opinion. You say you want to keep it open and we
ahve repeatedly been told rock stacking, creating by passes etc...
due cause trail closures, so why would you go into a trail knowing
either the vehicle or the driver cannot do it without rock stacking?

Yes sometimes it is needed to get by, but just as you talk about
preservation, they should be removed, it is a insane to even think
paving would keep the trails open. If paved tails are what will be
open then your logic would serve that not matter how many want the
harder trails open we can kiss them good bye, they will close them
and tell us the current paved trails are enough, is that your goal?
Do you want these trails closed so we can run everything in 2wd?

I am at a loss for words for you to be calling anyone names,
especially from the person I see on every adgenda, every meeting, at
every event to keep them open. She is simply reminding you (albight
passionately) of some of the reasons our trails are closed and since
you started off by implying rock stacking would be going on by
asking for attendees to bring a stong back, you touched of a nerve
in alot of people here. Setting expectations to newcomers to our
sport that going into a trail that your vehicle or the driver cannot
handle, but don't worry just stack rocks is not a very good way to
start things off. It sets a bad example for newcomers not to
mention that someone could get hurt driving a pretty stock rig
through something like Sandy Beach or Anaconda or Anihilator or ???
just cause they have the attitude they can stack their way out.

I hope that you are aware of the land agencies thoughts on this, but
from your message and thoughts of what they deem damage I fear you
do not. Before you go off on someone calling them names you might
want to be sure of the facts that the items you are talking about
are deemed damage, tire marks are not. I also hope you remove the
rocks when you are done, you did not say either way, but I will give
you the benefit of the doubt.

Keep in mind you should only do what it is safe for your vehicle to
do, and a driver can make up for alot. However someone who wants to
run NASCAR, but cannot afford all the equipment (or in our case a
full blown rock crawling rig) will be stopped from running the race,
if you drive the Autobaughn and get caught with tires that don't
match the speed rating for how fast you were going you lose your
license to drive period, it is called safety. Stacking rocks can
lead to broken fingers, pulled muscles, unearthed scorpions or other
creatures that can sting or bite you, the rocks can shift while you
go over them and could even cause you to roll over and while
sometimes is it necessary as a last resort we should not go into a
trail with the though process that we are going to do it just to get
through it. It is not safe and it is not a preserving mentality.

JMO

Chris
---------------------------------------------------------------------

94304 From: TODD MCCULLEN <desertfab@m...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:32am
Subject:

So what you are saying is, example: Lets say you are a skier and not very
good at it. You want to go do a extreme slope, you say you have every
right to bulldoze this slope to make easy so you can say you did a extreme
slope. now the slope is no longer extreme for the skier that likes the
extreme slope. There is something wrong with that picture.

Dude, people like you are the ones who get our trails closed!! Buy the way
sandy beach trail can be done with a jeep SOA 35's and lockers without
stacking rocks, not just rock buggies. It is called driving ability and
experience!

If you want to see the canyon so bad, put on your hiking boots

Todd

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 10:22:23 -0000
From: "olneyjeeps" <olneyjeeps@y...>
Subject: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks

Thank you for showing your true colors - self ritcous pompus
controlling wannabe get to tell everyone where they can or cannot go
based on how you thought it would possibly change the run;
As you may have been deaf and blind at the last blm meeting. I and my
family enjoy exploring what shrinking habatat there is. They should
not be limited to the hiking "elite". Nor should they be limited to
the "extreeme four wheeler" My position is that these lands must
remain open (gonna lose some friende here) even if it has to be
paved.

No One should have sole right to the beauty / solitude / challange.
This or any canyon is not for any one group. The more people that
see theese trails, the more people will want to preserve it. The
trail is a trail, not your private playground. Not too long ago your
house was bare desart, get rid of the stacking there so you may have
your own private playground.
AlthoughI do not advocate wheel spinning, rockstatking, or winching
thry do have their place in rare occasions, It is imperrative these
lands remain open to ALL (forgive me for yelling) and not just the
owners of fab shops creating vehicles by whose standards leave 90% of
the club "not worthy" / wannabees (how many of you that dont' have
60's front and rear,4link airlockers, 44's etc realized you were just
labeled a wanabe, and therefore, by Ms. McCullen's judgement owing
gratitude for being allowed to travel the trails she and her sons no
longer consider "challanging"? Maybe we should rent heavy equipment
and go in and tear up the trails so that no one (except Sandy and
her sons) can enjoy.

In response to your comment referring to my comment as "sounds like
like the green eye of
>jealousy to me." Give me a break. There is not a speck
(possesions, ability or otherwise) that you and your world traveled
multi lingual college educated kids and their "toys" have that I
would waste on starting a fire. My girls love spending time with me
exploring in the Jeeps. I need nothing more to garner their full
love and devotion.

Public land is public land. Just as I fight to keep the Sierra Club
from blocking off land for a limited few, I resent Sandy and others
for claiming that they have exclusive right to any area.

__________________________________________________ _______________
Is your computer infected with a virus? Find out with a FREE computer virus
scan from McAfee. Take the FreeScan now!
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

94305 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:48am
Subject: [Tech] 93 YJ - VIBRATION OFF THE LINE.....

DOES ANY BODY KNOW WHY I GETT A VIBRATION WHEN I START OFF FROMM FIRST GEAR? IT FEELS LIKE THE TRANNY IS JUMPING AROUND A LITTLE. I HAVE REPLACED BOTH MOTOR MOUNTS AND THE TRANNY AND T-CASE MOUNT AS WELL TO NO AVAIL. WHEN ALL THIS DONE IT DOES MAKE THE JEEP RIDE VERY SMOOTH ONCE UNDERWAY.IT HAS NO OTHER VIBES'

Bob Lynn

94306 From: Tom Jacobson <tjacobson@t...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:57am
Subject: Freeway Opening display - This Saturday

Bob,

In one of your next posts, let us know when/where to meet. Run time
just says 6-7am for set-up. Will bring 2 or 3 of those collapsing camp
chairs, too.

See ya,
Tom

Message: 25
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 11:31:31 -0700
From: Bob Jacques <bjacques@m...>
Subject: Freeway Opening display - This Saturday

Hi all and thanks for the interest and attendance... I will be
posting
more later today or Thursday, just wanted to update everyone... We have
a TV
and VCR coming and a generator to run them... Need Tapes !! How about
Land
use handouts or cellophane enclosed copies to have at the table for
reference !!?? Can anyone make a few cards with the logo and website
addy
on them to hand out ?? John k, do you have the Banner?? If yes, I will
P/U
today/Thurs... How about some folding/lawn chairs?? Anyone have an EZ
up
for shade?? We have water and Ice coming.... Anything else? If you
have
any ideas for handouts please send them to me today!!
Thanks, Bob J

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

94307 From: frankgreentj2000 <frankgreentj2000@y...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 0:12pm
Subject: Re: [Tech] 93 YJ - VIBRATION OFF THE LINE.....

Do you have a lift on it? If so you might need to put on a SYE (Slip
Yoke Eliminator). That should take care of the vibration.
Frank B
98TJ
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...> wrote:
> DOES ANY BODY KNOW WHY I GETT A VIBRATION WHEN I START OFF FROMM
FIRST GEAR? IT FEELS LIKE THE TRANNY IS JUMPING AROUND A LITTLE. I
HAVE REPLACED BOTH MOTOR MOUNTS AND THE TRANNY AND T-CASE MOUNT AS
WELL TO NO AVAIL. WHEN ALL THIS DONE IT DOES MAKE THE JEEP RIDE VERY
SMOOTH ONCE UNDERWAY.IT HAS NO OTHER VIBES'
>
> Bob Lynn

94308 From: Joe Kearney <Joe-CJ7@j...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 0:18pm
Subject: CJ7 Soft Doors

Need some help finding soft doors for a CJ7 (I think the CJ5 doors will work
also).

Anybody know where I can get a used set?

Joe Kearney

Joe-CJ7@J...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

94309 From: steven.campbell <steven.campbell@c...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 0:29pm
Subject: Re: [Tech] 93 YJ - VIBRATION OFF THE LINE.....

Is your Jeep lifted (and how much)? I had some vibration as you described when I had my 3" lift installed (2001 TJ / now with a 4" lift). This was both before and after the 1" motor mount lift. I recently installed an SYE and CV drive shaft and that vibe is gone.

Oh yes, I have an auto transmission.

Steve

----- Original Message -----
From: "AzVJC Website" <azvjc@a...>
To: "AzVJC" <az_vjc@YahooGroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 7:48 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] [Tech] 93 YJ - VIBRATION OFF THE LINE.....

> DOES ANY BODY KNOW WHY I GETT A VIBRATION WHEN I START OFF FROMM FIRST GEAR? IT FEELS LIKE THE TRANNY IS JUMPING AROUND A LITTLE. I HAVE REPLACED BOTH MOTOR MOUNTS AND THE TRANNY AND T-CASE MOUNT AS WELL TO NO AVAIL. WHEN ALL THIS DONE IT DOES MAKE THE JEEP RIDE VERY SMOOTH ONCE UNDERWAY.IT HAS NO OTHER VIBES'
>
> Bob Lynn
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

94310 From: intertwingled <intertwingled@q...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 0:35pm
Subject: speaking of camping... Bagdad/Camp Wood area..

Speaking of camping, what kind of camping and offroading opportunities
exist around the Burro Creek/Bagdad/Camp Wood area? Also, (this
question is I guess for Sandy =)), what exactly is (or maybe used to be
now) the Luis Maria Baca Land Grant that is up in that area?

Thanks,
Tony

94311 From: <rokkcrawler@a...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 7:42am
Subject: Re: (unknown)

Ok "olneyjeeps" (or was that supposed to be OnlyJeeps? Now I dont think
that a personal attack on Sandee and her son(s) is warranted here. My Jeep
doesnt have 60's front and rear, 4 links or 44's. I dont know how many people do
have Jeeps like that. I am sure there are not alot and sure I think we all
have a little envy for those that have the extreme rigs and at times. I am
also sure that some of us wouldnt mind having one too for the fun and challenge.
Many of us cant or dont want to invest in an extreme rig and there are those
of us that also use our Jeeps as daily drivers. One thing I am sure of that
most of us like watching them "play". There are others that dont want to
break and damage their "toys". There is no reason to think or talk negatively
of Todd, Sandee or anyone else because they like to do and have the
availability to do the 4.5 and extreme trails. In any case, I know the limits of my
rig, many other members here I am sure know the limits of theirs. If a trail
is too extreme for you then you need to find another trail and just do the
trails that you and your Jeep can do comfortably. That is the reason for trail
ratings. While I have had rigs that could do and did do 4.5 trails in Moab,
I choose not to do 4.5 trails here as they are much more difficult and
technical in my opinion and not that I couldnt do them here, I choose not to. No
one is telling you where and where not to go. Unless I missed the point, they
are telling you that if you cant do the trail as it is then you need to go on
other trails. Oh yeah, perhaps an apology is due on your part too for the
name calling. My 2 cents worth.
From: "olneyjeeps" <olneyjeeps@y...>
Subject: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks

Thank you for showing your true colors - self ritcous pompus
controlling wannabe get to tell everyone where they can or cannot go
based on how you thought it would possibly change the run;
As you may have been deaf and blind at the last blm meeting. I and my
family enjoy exploring what shrinking habatat there is. They should
not be limited to the hiking "elite". Nor should they be limited to
the "extreeme four wheeler" My position is that these lands must
remain open (gonna lose some friende here) even if it has to be
paved.

No One should have sole right to the beauty / solitude / challange.
This or any canyon is not for any one group. The more people that
see theese trails, the more people will want to preserve it. The
trail is a trail, not your private playground. Not too long ago your
house was bare desart, get rid of the stacking there so you may have
your own private playground.
AlthoughI do not advocate wheel spinning, rockstatking, or winching
thry do have their place in rare occasions, It is imperrative these
lands remain open to ALL (forgive me for yelling) and not just the
owners of fab shops creating vehicles by whose standards leave 90% of
the club "not worthy" / wannabees (how many of you that dont' have
60's front and rear,4link airlockers, 44's etc realized you were just
labeled a wanabe, and therefore, by Ms. McCullen's judgement owing
gratitude for being allowed to travel the trails she and her sons no
longer consider "challanging"? Maybe we should rent heavy equipment
and go in and tear up the trails so that no one (except Sandy and
her sons) can enjoy.

In response to your comment referring to my comment as "sounds like
like the green eye of
>jealousy to me." Give me a break. There is not a speck
(possesions, ability or otherwise) that you and your world traveled
multi lingual college educated kids and their "toys" have that I
would waste on starting a fire. My girls love spending time with me
exploring in the Jeeps. I need nothing more to garner their full
love and devotion.

Public land is public land. Just as I fight to keep the Sierra Club
from blocking off land for a limited few, I resent Sandy and others
for claiming that they have exclusive right to any area.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

94312 From: Sandee McCullen <mccullen@c...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 0:41pm
Subject: RE: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks

Nice to know someone is going to "take full credit for closure to OHV trails
and access"!!!!!!

[[My position is that these lands must
> remain open (gonna lose some friende here) even if it has to be
> paved.]]

PAVING and making by-passes will not keep lands / trails open.

Thanks to recreationists like you we ALL WILL LOSE. NO ONE, not me, not
Chris, not Todd has said anything about "rock
stacking"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have NOT been talking about "rock
stacking" or "throwing a rock or two to help"....... you have been talking
(as quoted above) about PAVING. Making the trail easier so you and/or
everyone/anyone can traverse it is called PAVING. Again ......... this kind
of action and/or attitude will, and does, reflect on all of us and WILL
close our access whether you believe it or not!

All the messages to you regarding "rocking" have been strictly stating:
"Don't go in if you plan on PAVING or making a by-pass. Making the trail
easier is not the same as "helping" a vehicle through. Simple trail
etiquette calls for "removing" rocks placed to 'help'. Don't talk about
"competition" rock crawling in regards to "rock stacking"....... ALL
competitions REQUIRE ALL ROCKS TO BE REMOVED and these guys don't do much
'rock stacking' as they simply do not have the time to do so. This is an
example of what you've been told throughout these posts......... "Leave the
challenge for the vehicles capable of meeting it". No one has told you you
should never try a harder trail; no one has told you 'they have specific
trails and you don't'; no one has denied your right to "see our beautiful
country"........ you have only been asked to "drive where you are capable
of, play where you are capable of".......... WITHOUT ruining not only the
challenge but the trail as a whole.

Let me tell you a short story of a possibility we are all facing because of
attitudes like yours:
With the new RMP's being done there is consideration of the 3.5 and less
trails will be assessed and mapped........ ALL extreme trails will be
identified as: "Special Recreation Areas" and will require a permit to
access at all times..... Like Bull Dog Wash on the Tonto National Forest
BUT......... the agencies are considering a way to "tech" EACH VEHICLE for
proper equipment and EACH driver will have to sign a waiver stating "all
info to be true". Then........... if any driver is caught rock paving or
making by-passes they will be financially liable to return the area back to
it's original condition.

Yes, I know, you're thinking "yeh, right".............. same as I have. We
probably all know this kind of lock down is impossible but they ARE
considering something in this light............... BECAUSE of attitudes
like yours!!! Aren't you proud???!!

Just because we're talking about PUBLIC lands does not give EVERYONE the
right to do as they please. I believe Chris mentioned to you that there
WILL BE numerous areas designated for SPECIFIC recreation.......... That is
what an IES is about. Certain areas just are not conducive to ALL types or
levels of recreation as you seem to think.

I have been 4-wheeling probably longer than you've been on this earth and
have always cherished my 4-wheeling friends. They have been supportive and
considerate........... you certainly change that picture.

Two words left........... GROW UP. Sandee

> -----Original Message-----
> From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 3:22 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
>
>
> Thank you for showing your true colors - self ritcous pompus
> controlling wannabe get to tell everyone where they can or cannot go
> based on how you thought it would possibly change the run;
> As you may have been deaf and blind at the last blm meeting. I and my
> family enjoy exploring what shrinking habatat there is. They should
> not be limited to the hiking "elite". Nor should they be limited to
> the "extreeme four wheeler" My position is that these lands must
> remain open (gonna lose some friende here) even if it has to be
> paved.
>
> No One should have sole right to the beauty / solitude / challange.
> This or any canyon is not for any one group. The more people that
> see theese trails, the more people will want to preserve it. The
> trail is a trail, not your private playground. Not too long ago your
> house was bare desart, get rid of the stacking there so you may have
> your own private playground.
> AlthoughI do not advocate wheel spinning, rockstatking, or winching
> thry do have their place in rare occasions, It is imperrative these
> lands remain open to ALL (forgive me for yelling) and not just the
> owners of fab shops creating vehicles by whose standards leave 90% of
> the club "not worthy" / wannabees (how many of you that dont' have
> 60's front and rear,4link airlockers, 44's etc realized you were just
> labeled a wanabe, and therefore, by Ms. McCullen's judgement owing
> gratitude for being allowed to travel the trails she and her sons no
> longer consider "challanging"? Maybe we should rent heavy equipment
> and go in and tear up the trails so that no one (except Sandy and
> her sons) can enjoy.
>
> In response to your comment referring to my comment as "sounds like
> like the green eye of
> > jealousy to me." Give me a break. There is not a speck
> (possesions, ability or otherwise) that you and your world traveled
> multi lingual college educated kids and their "toys" have that I
> would waste on starting a fire. My girls love spending time with me
> exploring in the Jeeps. I need nothing more to garner their full
> love and devotion.
>
> Public land is public land. Just as I fight to keep the Sierra Club
> from blocking off land for a limited few, I resent Sandy and others
> for claiming that they have exclusive right to any area.
>
> --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee McCullen" <mccullen@c...>
> wrote:
> > OK........... my apologies in the use of "YOU". It was meant to be
> > directed at anyone that is into a trail they don't belong..... or
> those that
> > seem to believe PAVING is simply a way to allow them to go where
> they
> > please! Yes, caps indicate yelling or very strong suggestion and
> that is
> > exactly what I meant. I agree I was not there and I do appreciate
> the fact
> > he did turn around, but he also slams the extreme wheeler and
> indicated he
> > had as much right on those trails as anyone else. NO he does
> not.........
> > not if it means the extreme wheeler has to lose any/all challenge
> they have
> > because someone wants to "do what the big guys do". I'm so tired
> of this
> > attitude and mentality. Just because someone builds a vehicle
> capable of
> > doing almost anything does not make them "the big guy", or "GOD",
> or anyone
> > any different than you, I or the first time 4-wheeler.
> >
> > There were comments comparing the "damage" the buggies or rock
> crawlers do
> > ............ like leaving "semi-permanent marks" on the rocks. Or
> climbing
> > "near vertical obstacles"........ sounds like like the green eye of
> > jealousy to me. This is not damage........ paving or making by-
> passes IS
> > damage and abuse and these actions are what will close ALL our
> trails.
> > ......
> >
> > [As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the semi
> > > >>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to climb
> near
> > > >>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's right
> to
> > > >>>> say where someone does or does not belong]
> >
> > This comes across to me as "I'll do as I please"........ "it's my
> right to
> > stack rocks as long as the day is long", "I don't do any more
> damage than
> > the "rock scratchers" yada yada yada!! YES, it is MY RIGHT if
> these kinds
> > of actions lose the only challenge I have within my sport! YES, I
> AM
> > YELLING Chris............... there are way too many recreationists
> out
> > there that simply do NOT get the picture. Too many ATV's tear
> across
> > country, the 4-wheelers enter trails they are not capable of doing,
> many
> > motorcycles go way to fast............... and we can't seem to
> understand
> > "WHY" we're losing everything. The agencies simply do not want to
> deal with
> > the headaches of the recreationists not being responsible. .....
> Before
> > you go off again, I'm not saying or claiming this Steve was "not"
> > responsible but his attitude is certainly in the grey area...
> > There are LARGE groups of agency planners that feel the "graded
> gravel roads
> > should be enough for us". There are also LARGE numbers of new
> personnel
> > joining the land management agencies and believe me.............,
> for the
> > most part, they are GREEN!!! Everyone seems to be into "saving"
> something.
> > Our battles will not be getting easier and abuse such as rock
> paving and
> > by-passes are the first issues to be held over us. We lost
> Jawbreaker
> > because of "rock paving"........ had vehicles going
> through "DErocked" the
> > obstacle after getting through the Tucson BLM wouldn't have had
> anything to
> > present to the courts to show "abuse". Game & Fish are no better.
> If it's
> > not wildlife habitat destruction, it's "messing up the watershed"
> of the
> > area or rock stacking is showing to alter the flow because it tends
> to hold
> > silt or gravel instead of allowing it to wash down stream etc etc
> > etc............. there's desert tortoise, or a lizard, or beetle
> or a WEED.
> > They'll use anything they can to shut out OHV recreation.........
> WHY do we
> > insist on hurting ourselves!!!?
> >
> > I am rambling and will continue to do so until ALL of my fellow 4-
> wheelers
> > finally understand that we each have our own level of wheeling and
> to mess
> > us someone elses challenge just to prove a point, will shut us all
> down.
> >
> > Sandee
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 5:40 PM
> > > To: Sandee McCullen
> > > Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> > >
> > >
> > > I quote you:
> > >
> > > "If you cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks to
> > > enable you to get through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T
> > > BELONG THERE!!"
> > >
> > > The use of "you" and the caps (internet yelling) make it look
> like it
> > > was directed to him. Sorry if I misinterpreted this.
> > >
> > > Your points are all correct, but it is incorrect to use them
> against
> > > Steve in this case, since we were not there and have no idea in
> what
> > > condition he left the trail.
> > >
> > > If we are going to preach, we should do it in a general manner.
> It is
> > > unfair to use someone else's post about a run to further our
> ideas,
> > > even if they are good ideas. To some, it will seem like we are
> bashing
> > > the post.
> > >
> > > I read Steve's post and thought it was very responsible that they
> did
> > > what they did. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that they
> unstacked
> > > the rock. Remember, innocent until proven guilty works in may ways
> > > besides in a court of law, especially with friends and fellow
> wheelers.
> > > It was pointed out to me in an email from another member that his
> email
> > > also indicated that they might stack rocks if they go back.
> Again, I
> > > give him the benefit of the doubt that they will unstack them as
> well.
> > > If they do not, then I will lose and my trust of him will be lost.
> > >
> > > Remember (and this is my final point since I don't want this to
> grow in
> > > to more than it has), if we were to never wheel on trails that
> there is
> > > the potential that we will have to stack rocks, most of us would
> never
> > > leave the graded dirt road. That would be a shame.
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 03:45 PM, Sandee McCullen wrote:
> > >
> > > > Chris, I don't think anyone "jumped down anyones
> throat".........
> > > > simply
> > > > stated "rock paving" is ruining our extreme trails and is
> hurting us
> > > > all.
> > > >
> > > > I have NO PROBLEM with turning around when finding a trail is
> too
> > > > tough but
> > > > you and I both KNOW that there are waaaaaay too many vehicles
> going
> > > > into
> > > > trails they KNOW they are not equipped to do without rocking or
> making
> > > > by-passes! I hear over and over again....... "no problem,
> we'll 'pull
> > > > you
> > > > through'". WHY???? Isn't actually "driving to the individual
> > > > challenge"
> > > > what we're suppose to be about?
> > > >
> > > > I didn't pretend to "be there" and I didn't accuse anyone of
> > > > "semi-permanent" damage. Nor did I accuse the rock crawlers of
> being
> > > > "GODS". My message was to EVERYONE that are doing trails above
> their
> > > > ability, rock paving or making by-passes to get through to stay
> within
> > > > their
> > > > own challenge limitations. These actions WILL affect ALL of us
> in the
> > > > near
> > > > future and it won't be what anyone wants to hear. This kind of
> abuse
> > > > is
> > > > closing trails across the country. The agencies are having a
> tough
> > > > enough
> > > > time understanding the "challenge" of extreme 4-wheeling, but
> when all
> > > > they
> > > > see is the rock paving, by-passes, oil spills, and vegetation
> winched
> > > > out of
> > > > the ground they simply declare "abuse and resource damage" and
> close
> > > > everything. It's going to take ALL of us to truly show
> RESPONSIBLE
> > > > use of
> > > > our recreation trails system................
> > > >
> > > > The responses from Todd and myself simply stated "to stay on
> trails
> > > > within
> > > > individual vehicle and/or driver capabilities"............. or
> > > > "UNSTACK if
> > > > the need for rocks is called for".
> > > >
> > > > Sandee
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> > > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 3:28 PM
> > > >> To: Sandee McCullen
> > > >> Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > >> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Sandy and Todd, um, did either of you read his run description?
> > > >> They turned around after deciding they were beyond their
> capabilities.
> > > >> The rock stacking was done to get back out. No lectures should
> be
> > > >> given
> > > >> because they had no idea what the trail ahead was like.
> > > >> In my opinion, they did the sensible thing. They gave it a try
> (aren't
> > > >> we all allowed to do this, it being public land and all?) and
> called
> > > >> it
> > > >> quits when it became apparent that it was beyond their
> capabilities.
> > > >> So
> > > >> a few rocks were stacked to get them back out. At least they
> didn't
> > > >> just continue on and stack the entire trail as others probably
> would
> > > >> have. Besides, he never said he didn't unstack them.
> > > >>
> > > >> Everyone, please don't be so quick to jump down the other
> guys/girls
> > > >> throat, ESPECIALLY if you weren't there or do not know all the
> facts.
> > > >> When you make assumptions without facts, you just make
> yourself look
> > > >> bad and create ill will in the group. We have enough bickering
> here
> > > >> lately. Lets work to save our trails, not bicker about who can
> play
> > > >> where.
> > > >>
> > > >> Just my $.02
> > > >>
> > > >> Chris
> > > >>
> > > >> On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 02:57 PM, Sandee McCullen
> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing trails
> via ROCK
> > > >>> PAVING
> > > >>> needs to stop.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line is
> simply: If
> > > >>> you
> > > >>> cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks to
> enable you
> > > >>> to get
> > > >>> through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T BELONG
> THERE!! The
> > > >>> "semi
> > > >>> permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do
> with "ruining a good
> > > >>> trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of paving is
> what is
> > > >>> "ruining
> > > >>> the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now and then
> to
> > > >>> "help"
> > > >>> is
> > > >>> done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy would
> have you
> > > >>> REMOVE
> > > >>> the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of the
> obstacle.
> > > >>> There
> > > >>> are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge" for every
> level of
> > > >>> 4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the extreme
> driver/vehicle
> > > >>> is
> > > >>> what is causing the problems and is what is in discussion
> from your
> > > >>> message.
> > > >>> This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's ALL of
> us.........
> > > >>> respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for all.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock crawling
> with
> > > >>> no,
> > > >>> or
> > > >>> very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS! All
> they're
> > > >>> asking is
> > > >>> the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do
> whatever they
> > > >>> wish
> > > >>> STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are not
> happy about
> > > >>> "rock
> > > >>> paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the watershed or
> natural
> > > >>> layout
> > > >>> of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother Nature does a
> good
> > > >>> job
> > > >>> of
> > > >>> keeping trails natural but some of the stacking/paving
> happening
> > > >>> today
> > > >>> is
> > > >>> well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
> > > >>> [FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the
> bottom of
> > > >>> a
> > > >>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic
> feet per
> > > >>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good
> trail."] This
> > > >>>> may
> > > >>> not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good trail"
> but it
> > > >>> is
> > > >>> if
> > > >>> YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother Nature
> may
> > > >>> make a
> > > >>> trail easier or harder but that should be left to nature NOT
> YOU or
> > > >>> other
> > > >>> want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have been
> wheel'n
> > > >>> Arizona and
> > > >>> California since BEFORE the early 70's. For whatever that's
> > > >>> worth??????
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Again, if you cannot traverse a trail or obstacle with your
> vehicle,
> > > >>> winch,
> > > >>> tires and/or ability and have to rock PAVE....... You don't
> belong
> > > >>> there.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Sandee
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>>> From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
> > > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:27 PM
> > > >>>> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > >>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it appears
> you would
> > > >>>> like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
> > > >>>> As it appears you coulden't read the first time from your
> throne:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> 1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a reasonable /
> responsible
> > > >>>> driver) because I had determined that (at that time) I was
> not
> > > >>>> properly equiped and did not have the resources if I were to
> get
> > > >>>> into
> > > >>>> trouble.
> > > >>>> 2) I did recommend / advise against attempting without lots
> of
> > > >>>> clearance.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
> > > >>>> "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
> > > >>>> As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the
> semi
> > > >>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to climb
> near
> > > >>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's right
> to
> > > >>>> say where someone does or does not belong (I don't recall
> seeing you
> > > >>>> at the last BLM meeting either)
> > > >>>> FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the
> bottom of a
> > > >>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic
> feet per
> > > >>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it, you do
> not belong
> > > >>>> on that trail."
> > > >>>> I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted (which I'm
> sure you
> > > >>>> always use before spinning all four gouging and spiting rock
> and
> > > >>>> admitting lack of ability to move unassisted). Let's compare
> > > >>>> possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash vs. tire
> scars on
> > > >>>> vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng attended
> several
> > > >>>> competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never stacked a rock
> or two
> > > >>>> for you, right?
> > > >>>> By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling / hiking in
> this area
> > > >>>> since the early 70's; you?
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> See you at the next BLM meeting
> > > >>>> Steve
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
> > > >>>>> This trail has been run by experienced drivers and rigs
> equipped to
> > > >>>> do it,
> > > >>>>> without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to stack
> rocks 20
> > > >>>> yards into
> > > >>>>> it, you do not belong on that trail.
> > > >>>>> There are plenty of trails out there for everyones level.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Todd
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Earlier this year, after talking with many people and
> surveying
> > > >>>>> from
> > > >>>>>> the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
> > > >>>>>> The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is really
> really
> > > >>>>> really
> > > >>>>>> nasty. Because the other members of the group did not
> want to go
> > > >>>> further,
> > > >>>>>> I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only the first
> 20-30
> > > >>>> yards; it
> > > >>>>>> took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of stacking+
> body
> > > >>>> damage to
> > > >>>>>> get back out.
> > > >>>>>> I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint hint)
> but
> > > >>>>> required
> > > >>>>>> equipment would be:
> > > >>>>>> minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
> > > >>>>>> Front and rear lockers
> > > >>>>>> winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Call if interested
> > > >>>>>> Steve Olney
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> __________________________________________________ _______________
> > > >>>>> From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music
> is always
> > > >>>> playing
> > > >>>>> on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE!
> > > >>>>> http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > >>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

94313 From: Joe West <joe.west@d...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 0:48pm
Subject: RE: Jeep Wrangler Side Steps

*This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(tm) Pro*
I can speak from experience... bought a hood lock from Steel Horse and
it broke in about 3 months... although on the bright side; the hood
locks didn't rust.
<grin>

If you want some help with the side steps... and you live in Mesa, feel
free to give me a call and I can take a look at them with you.

Joe West
(650) 861-1359

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Kilcullen [mailto:whoozey1953@y...]
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 10:37 AM
To: Angelo; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Jeep Wrangler Side Steps

*This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(tm)
Pro*
IMO, anything made by Steal Whorse is crap, and does not fit. I have
made the mistake of buying their junk, and I'll bet others will chime in
on this, also.

Chris

Angelo <aabruzzese@y...> wrote:

Here is my chance to show just how green I am in the Jeep World.

I am having some trouble with a set of molded side steps I
purchased on Ebay.

The item was listed as a 4208 Steel Horse Jeep Side Step for years
87-95 Wrangler models. When I did get them and looked over the
instructions they did not show anything about drilling yet I am
pretty sure all side steps require some degree of drilling.

They did not appear to fit the frame well in terms of the
positioning in respect to the doors.

Does anyone know if the 4208 really fits the 95 year model wrangler
or if it really is a 4202 model step I need.

I did find one site on the web showing the different items when I
ask the Ebay member that sold me the items he insisted that he sold
dozens of 4208 Steel Horse steps without any problems.

Here is the site I found showing the 2 models.
http://www.oly4x4.com/catalogpage34new.htm

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Angelo Abruzzese

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

94314 From: olneyjeeps <olneyjeeps@y...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 1:34pm
Subject: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks

One more time real slow for you as it appears you have had troubles
understanding my previous posts (as quoted from prior post):
"
I
do not,
did not,
and
never will
condone
"paving"
"

the baseline requirments for attending were:
""required
> equipment would be:
> minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
> Front and rear lockers
> winch + hooks
> strong back (rocks are heavy)"

NEVER was the act of "paving" mentioned
I ALWAYS try to be prepared for worst case scenerio (is this not why
we bring jacks,winch,hooks,strap,gloves).
Just because I like to be prepared (as any responsible person would
be) does NOT mean I intend/plan on using such devices.
Do you / hard core wheelers use spotters who can not move a rock if
absolutely necessary? Why would you expect me/anyone not to be
prepared if necessary?

Finally, although worded slopily at 3AM (due to power outage) I
(although, as I said, I would not, nor would I condone paving) would
prefer any open trail to a closed trail. It is my position that NO
ONE (sierra club or you) has the right to deny responsible access to
any land (they do not own, i.e. NASCAR)

--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee McCullen" <mccullen@c...>
wrote:
> Nice to know someone is going to "take full credit for closure to
OHV trails
> and access"!!!!!!
>
> [[My position is that these lands must
> > remain open (gonna lose some friende here) even if it has to be
> > paved.]]
>
> PAVING and making by-passes will not keep lands / trails open.
>
> Thanks to recreationists like you we ALL WILL LOSE. NO ONE, not
me, not
> Chris, not Todd has said anything about "rock
> stacking"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have NOT been talking
about "rock
> stacking" or "throwing a rock or two to help"....... you have been
talking
> (as quoted above) about PAVING. Making the trail easier so you
and/or
> everyone/anyone can traverse it is called PAVING. Again .........
this kind
> of action and/or attitude will, and does, reflect on all of us and
WILL
> close our access whether you believe it or not!
>
> All the messages to you regarding "rocking" have been strictly
stating:
> "Don't go in if you plan on PAVING or making a by-pass. Making the
trail
> easier is not the same as "helping" a vehicle through. Simple trail
> etiquette calls for "removing" rocks placed to 'help'. Don't talk
about
> "competition" rock crawling in regards to "rock stacking".......
ALL
> competitions REQUIRE ALL ROCKS TO BE REMOVED and these guys don't
do much
> 'rock stacking' as they simply do not have the time to do so. This
is an
> example of what you've been told throughout these
posts......... "Leave the
> challenge for the vehicles capable of meeting it". No one has told
you you
> should never try a harder trail; no one has told you 'they have
specific
> trails and you don't'; no one has denied your right to "see our
beautiful
> country"........ you have only been asked to "drive where you are
capable
> of, play where you are capable of".......... WITHOUT ruining not
only the
> challenge but the trail as a whole.
>
> Let me tell you a short story of a possibility we are all facing
because of
> attitudes like yours:
> With the new RMP's being done there is consideration of the 3.5 and
less
> trails will be assessed and mapped........ ALL extreme trails will
be
> identified as: "Special Recreation Areas" and will require a permit
to
> access at all times..... Like Bull Dog Wash on the Tonto National
Forest
> BUT......... the agencies are considering a way to "tech" EACH
VEHICLE for
> proper equipment and EACH driver will have to sign a waiver
stating "all
> info to be true". Then........... if any driver is caught rock
paving or
> making by-passes they will be financially liable to return the area
back to
> it's original condition.
>
> Yes, I know, you're thinking "yeh, right".............. same as I
have. We
> probably all know this kind of lock down is impossible but they ARE
> considering something in this light............... BECAUSE of
attitudes
> like yours!!! Aren't you proud???!!
>
> Just because we're talking about PUBLIC lands does not give
EVERYONE the
> right to do as they please. I believe Chris mentioned to you that
there
> WILL BE numerous areas designated for SPECIFIC
recreation.......... That is
> what an IES is about. Certain areas just are not conducive to ALL
types or
> levels of recreation as you seem to think.
>
> I have been 4-wheeling probably longer than you've been on this
earth and
> have always cherished my 4-wheeling friends. They have been
supportive and
> considerate........... you certainly change that picture.
>
> Two words left........... GROW UP. Sandee
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 3:22 AM
> > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> >
> >
> > Thank you for showing your true colors - self ritcous pompus
> > controlling wannabe get to tell everyone where they can or cannot
go
> > based on how you thought it would possibly change the run;
> > As you may have been deaf and blind at the last blm meeting. I
and my
> > family enjoy exploring what shrinking habatat there is. They
should
> > not be limited to the hiking "elite". Nor should they be limited
to
> > the "extreeme four wheeler" My position is that these lands must
> > remain open (gonna lose some friende here) even if it has to be
> > paved.
> >
> > No One should have sole right to the beauty / solitude /
challange.
> > This or any canyon is not for any one group. The more people that
> > see theese trails, the more people will want to preserve it. The
> > trail is a trail, not your private playground. Not too long ago
your
> > house was bare desart, get rid of the stacking there so you may
have
> > your own private playground.
> > AlthoughI do not advocate wheel spinning, rockstatking, or
winching
> > thry do have their place in rare occasions, It is imperrative
these
> > lands remain open to ALL (forgive me for yelling) and not just the
> > owners of fab shops creating vehicles by whose standards leave
90% of
> > the club "not worthy" / wannabees (how many of you that dont' have
> > 60's front and rear,4link airlockers, 44's etc realized you were
just
> > labeled a wanabe, and therefore, by Ms. McCullen's judgement owing
> > gratitude for being allowed to travel the trails she and her sons
no
> > longer consider "challanging"? Maybe we should rent heavy
equipment
> > and go in and tear up the trails so that no one (except Sandy and
> > her sons) can enjoy.
> >
> > In response to your comment referring to my comment as "sounds
like
> > like the green eye of
> > > jealousy to me." Give me a break. There is not a speck
> > (possesions, ability or otherwise) that you and your world
traveled
> > multi lingual college educated kids and their "toys" have that I
> > would waste on starting a fire. My girls love spending time with
me
> > exploring in the Jeeps. I need nothing more to garner their full
> > love and devotion.
> >
> > Public land is public land. Just as I fight to keep the Sierra
Club
> > from blocking off land for a limited few, I resent Sandy and
others
> > for claiming that they have exclusive right to any area.
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee McCullen" <mccullen@c...>
> > wrote:
> > > OK........... my apologies in the use of "YOU". It was meant
to be
> > > directed at anyone that is into a trail they don't belong.....
or
> > those that
> > > seem to believe PAVING is simply a way to allow them to go where
> > they
> > > please! Yes, caps indicate yelling or very strong suggestion
and
> > that is
> > > exactly what I meant. I agree I was not there and I do
appreciate
> > the fact
> > > he did turn around, but he also slams the extreme wheeler and
> > indicated he
> > > had as much right on those trails as anyone else. NO he does
> > not.........
> > > not if it means the extreme wheeler has to lose any/all
challenge
> > they have
> > > because someone wants to "do what the big guys do". I'm so
tired
> > of this
> > > attitude and mentality. Just because someone builds a vehicle
> > capable of
> > > doing almost anything does not make them "the big guy",
or "GOD",
> > or anyone
> > > any different than you, I or the first time 4-wheeler.
> > >
> > > There were comments comparing the "damage" the buggies or rock
> > crawlers do
> > > ............ like leaving "semi-permanent marks" on the rocks.
Or
> > climbing
> > > "near vertical obstacles"........ sounds like like the green
eye of
> > > jealousy to me. This is not damage........ paving or making
by-
> > passes IS
> > > damage and abuse and these actions are what will close ALL our
> > trails.
> > > ......
> > >
> > > [As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the semi
> > > > >>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to
climb
> > near
> > > > >>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's
right
> > to
> > > > >>>> say where someone does or does not belong]
> > >
> > > This comes across to me as "I'll do as I please"........ "it's
my
> > right to
> > > stack rocks as long as the day is long", "I don't do any more
> > damage than
> > > the "rock scratchers" yada yada yada!! YES, it is MY RIGHT if
> > these kinds
> > > of actions lose the only challenge I have within my sport!
YES, I
> > AM
> > > YELLING Chris............... there are way too many
recreationists
> > out
> > > there that simply do NOT get the picture. Too many ATV's tear
> > across
> > > country, the 4-wheelers enter trails they are not capable of
doing,
> > many
> > > motorcycles go way to fast............... and we can't seem to
> > understand
> > > "WHY" we're losing everything. The agencies simply do not want
to
> > deal with
> > > the headaches of the recreationists not being
responsible. .....
> > Before
> > > you go off again, I'm not saying or claiming this Steve
was "not"
> > > responsible but his attitude is certainly in the grey area...
> > > There are LARGE groups of agency planners that feel the "graded
> > gravel roads
> > > should be enough for us". There are also LARGE numbers of new
> > personnel
> > > joining the land management agencies and believe
me.............,
> > for the
> > > most part, they are GREEN!!! Everyone seems to be into "saving"
> > something.
> > > Our battles will not be getting easier and abuse such as rock
> > paving and
> > > by-passes are the first issues to be held over us. We lost
> > Jawbreaker
> > > because of "rock paving"........ had vehicles going
> > through "DErocked" the
> > > obstacle after getting through the Tucson BLM wouldn't have had
> > anything to
> > > present to the courts to show "abuse". Game & Fish are no
better.
> > If it's
> > > not wildlife habitat destruction, it's "messing up the
watershed"
> > of the
> > > area or rock stacking is showing to alter the flow because it
tends
> > to hold
> > > silt or gravel instead of allowing it to wash down stream etc
etc
> > > etc............. there's desert tortoise, or a lizard, or
beetle
> > or a WEED.
> > > They'll use anything they can to shut out OHV
recreation.........
> > WHY do we
> > > insist on hurting ourselves!!!?
> > >
> > > I am rambling and will continue to do so until ALL of my fellow
4-
> > wheelers
> > > finally understand that we each have our own level of wheeling
and
> > to mess
> > > us someone elses challenge just to prove a point, will shut us
all
> > down.
> > >
> > > Sandee
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 5:40 PM
> > > > To: Sandee McCullen
> > > > Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I quote you:
> > > >
> > > > "If you cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with
rocks to
> > > > enable you to get through or across an obstacle........ YOU
DON'T
> > > > BELONG THERE!!"
> > > >
> > > > The use of "you" and the caps (internet yelling) make it look
> > like it
> > > > was directed to him. Sorry if I misinterpreted this.
> > > >
> > > > Your points are all correct, but it is incorrect to use them
> > against
> > > > Steve in this case, since we were not there and have no idea
in
> > what
> > > > condition he left the trail.
> > > >
> > > > If we are going to preach, we should do it in a general
manner.
> > It is
> > > > unfair to use someone else's post about a run to further our
> > ideas,
> > > > even if they are good ideas. To some, it will seem like we are
> > bashing
> > > > the post.
> > > >
> > > > I read Steve's post and thought it was very responsible that
they
> > did
> > > > what they did. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that they
> > unstacked
> > > > the rock. Remember, innocent until proven guilty works in may
ways
> > > > besides in a court of law, especially with friends and fellow
> > wheelers.
> > > > It was pointed out to me in an email from another member that
his
> > email
> > > > also indicated that they might stack rocks if they go back.
> > Again, I
> > > > give him the benefit of the doubt that they will unstack them
as
> > well.
> > > > If they do not, then I will lose and my trust of him will be
lost.
> > > >
> > > > Remember (and this is my final point since I don't want this
to
> > grow in
> > > > to more than it has), if we were to never wheel on trails that
> > there is
> > > > the potential that we will have to stack rocks, most of us
would
> > never
> > > > leave the graded dirt road. That would be a shame.
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > > On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 03:45 PM, Sandee McCullen
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Chris, I don't think anyone "jumped down anyones
> > throat".........
> > > > > simply
> > > > > stated "rock paving" is ruining our extreme trails and is
> > hurting us
> > > > > all.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have NO PROBLEM with turning around when finding a trail
is
> > too
> > > > > tough but
> > > > > you and I both KNOW that there are waaaaaay too many
vehicles
> > going
> > > > > into
> > > > > trails they KNOW they are not equipped to do without
rocking or
> > making
> > > > > by-passes! I hear over and over again....... "no problem,
> > we'll 'pull
> > > > > you
> > > > > through'". WHY???? Isn't actually "driving to the
individual
> > > > > challenge"
> > > > > what we're suppose to be about?
> > > > >
> > > > > I didn't pretend to "be there" and I didn't accuse anyone of
> > > > > "semi-permanent" damage. Nor did I accuse the rock
crawlers of
> > being
> > > > > "GODS". My message was to EVERYONE that are doing trails
above
> > their
> > > > > ability, rock paving or making by-passes to get through to
stay
> > within
> > > > > their
> > > > > own challenge limitations. These actions WILL affect ALL
of us
> > in the
> > > > > near
> > > > > future and it won't be what anyone wants to hear. This
kind of
> > abuse
> > > > > is
> > > > > closing trails across the country. The agencies are having
a
> > tough
> > > > > enough
> > > > > time understanding the "challenge" of extreme 4-wheeling,
but
> > when all
> > > > > they
> > > > > see is the rock paving, by-passes, oil spills, and
vegetation
> > winched
> > > > > out of
> > > > > the ground they simply declare "abuse and resource damage"
and
> > close
> > > > > everything. It's going to take ALL of us to truly show
> > RESPONSIBLE
> > > > > use of
> > > > > our recreation trails system................
> > > > >
> > > > > The responses from Todd and myself simply stated "to stay on
> > trails
> > > > > within
> > > > > individual vehicle and/or driver
capabilities"............. or
> > > > > "UNSTACK if
> > > > > the need for rocks is called for".
> > > > >
> > > > > Sandee
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> > > > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 3:28 PM
> > > > >> To: Sandee McCullen
> > > > >> Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > >> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Sandy and Todd, um, did either of you read his run
description?
> > > > >> They turned around after deciding they were beyond their
> > capabilities.
> > > > >> The rock stacking was done to get back out. No lectures
should
> > be
> > > > >> given
> > > > >> because they had no idea what the trail ahead was like.
> > > > >> In my opinion, they did the sensible thing. They gave it a
try
> > (aren't
> > > > >> we all allowed to do this, it being public land and all?)
and
> > called
> > > > >> it
> > > > >> quits when it became apparent that it was beyond their
> > capabilities.
> > > > >> So
> > > > >> a few rocks were stacked to get them back out. At least
they
> > didn't
> > > > >> just continue on and stack the entire trail as others
probably
> > would
> > > > >> have. Besides, he never said he didn't unstack them.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Everyone, please don't be so quick to jump down the other
> > guys/girls
> > > > >> throat, ESPECIALLY if you weren't there or do not know all
the
> > facts.
> > > > >> When you make assumptions without facts, you just make
> > yourself look
> > > > >> bad and create ill will in the group. We have enough
bickering
> > here
> > > > >> lately. Lets work to save our trails, not bicker about who
can
> > play
> > > > >> where.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Just my $.02
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Chris
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 02:57 PM, Sandee McCullen
> > wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing trails
> > via ROCK
> > > > >>> PAVING
> > > > >>> needs to stop.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line is
> > simply: If
> > > > >>> you
> > > > >>> cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks to
> > enable you
> > > > >>> to get
> > > > >>> through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T BELONG
> > THERE!! The
> > > > >>> "semi
> > > > >>> permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do
> > with "ruining a good
> > > > >>> trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of paving is
> > what is
> > > > >>> "ruining
> > > > >>> the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now and
then
> > to
> > > > >>> "help"
> > > > >>> is
> > > > >>> done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy would
> > have you
> > > > >>> REMOVE
> > > > >>> the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of the
> > obstacle.
> > > > >>> There
> > > > >>> are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge" for
every
> > level of
> > > > >>> 4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the extreme
> > driver/vehicle
> > > > >>> is
> > > > >>> what is causing the problems and is what is in discussion
> > from your
> > > > >>> message.
> > > > >>> This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's ALL of
> > us.........
> > > > >>> respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for all.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock
crawling
> > with
> > > > >>> no,
> > > > >>> or
> > > > >>> very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS! All
> > they're
> > > > >>> asking is
> > > > >>> the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do
> > whatever they
> > > > >>> wish
> > > > >>> STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are not
> > happy about
> > > > >>> "rock
> > > > >>> paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the
watershed or
> > natural
> > > > >>> layout
> > > > >>> of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother Nature
does a
> > good
> > > > >>> job
> > > > >>> of
> > > > >>> keeping trails natural but some of the stacking/paving
> > happening
> > > > >>> today
> > > > >>> is
> > > > >>> well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
> > > > >>> [FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the
> > bottom of
> > > > >>> a
> > > > >>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic
> > feet per
> > > > >>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good
> > trail."] This
> > > > >>>> may
> > > > >>> not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good
trail"
> > but it
> > > > >>> is
> > > > >>> if
> > > > >>> YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother
Nature
> > may
> > > > >>> make a
> > > > >>> trail easier or harder but that should be left to nature
NOT
> > YOU or
> > > > >>> other
> > > > >>> want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have been
> > wheel'n
> > > > >>> Arizona and
> > > > >>> California since BEFORE the early 70's. For whatever
that's
> > > > >>> worth??????
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Again, if you cannot traverse a trail or obstacle with
your
> > vehicle,
> > > > >>> winch,
> > > > >>> tires and/or ability and have to rock PAVE....... You
don't
> > belong
> > > > >>> there.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Sandee
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >>>> From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
> > > > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:27 PM
> > > > >>>> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > >>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it appears
> > you would
> > > > >>>> like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
> > > > >>>> As it appears you coulden't read the first time from your
> > throne:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> 1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a reasonable /
> > responsible
> > > > >>>> driver) because I had determined that (at that time) I
was
> > not
> > > > >>>> properly equiped and did not have the resources if I
were to
> > get
> > > > >>>> into
> > > > >>>> trouble.
> > > > >>>> 2) I did recommend / advise against attempting without
lots
> > of
> > > > >>>> clearance.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
> > > > >>>> "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
> > > > >>>> As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as
the
> > semi
> > > > >>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to
climb
> > near
> > > > >>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's
right
> > to
> > > > >>>> say where someone does or does not belong (I don't recall
> > seeing you
> > > > >>>> at the last BLM meeting either)
> > > > >>>> FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the
> > bottom of a
> > > > >>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic
> > feet per
> > > > >>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good
trail."
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it, you do
> > not belong
> > > > >>>> on that trail."
> > > > >>>> I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted (which I'm
> > sure you
> > > > >>>> always use before spinning all four gouging and spiting
rock
> > and
> > > > >>>> admitting lack of ability to move unassisted). Let's
compare
> > > > >>>> possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash vs.
tire
> > scars on
> > > > >>>> vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng attended
> > several
> > > > >>>> competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never stacked a
rock
> > or two
> > > > >>>> for you, right?
> > > > >>>> By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling / hiking in
> > this area
> > > > >>>> since the early 70's; you?
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> See you at the next BLM meeting
> > > > >>>> Steve
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>> Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
> > > > >>>>> This trail has been run by experienced drivers and rigs
> > equipped to
> > > > >>>> do it,
> > > > >>>>> without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to stack
> > rocks 20
> > > > >>>> yards into
> > > > >>>>> it, you do not belong on that trail.
> > > > >>>>> There are plenty of trails out there for everyones
level.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Todd
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Earlier this year, after talking with many people and
> > surveying
> > > > >>>>> from
> > > > >>>>>> the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
> > > > >>>>>> The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is really
> > really
> > > > >>>>> really
> > > > >>>>>> nasty. Because the other members of the group did not
> > want to go
> > > > >>>> further,
> > > > >>>>>> I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only the
first
> > 20-30
> > > > >>>> yards; it
> > > > >>>>>> took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of
stacking+
> > body
> > > > >>>> damage to
> > > > >>>>>> get back out.
> > > > >>>>>> I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint
hint)
> > but
> > > > >>>>> required
> > > > >>>>>> equipment would be:
> > > > >>>>>> minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
> > > > >>>>>> Front and rear lockers
> > > > >>>>>> winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Call if interested
> > > > >>>>>> Steve Olney
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > __________________________________________________ _______________
> > > > >>>>> From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite
music
> > is always
> > > > >>>> playing
> > > > >>>>> on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE!
> > > > >>>>> http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > >>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >

94315 From: Joe West <joe.west@s...>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 1:45pm
Subject: Kumbaya my lord... Kumbaya...RE: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks

The horse is dead... let's stop beating it and eat the damn thing around the campfire as we all sing...

Kumbaya my lord... Kumbaya...

Joe F. West
Applications Consultant Synopsys Corporation
Cell (650)861-1359 Office (480) 733-2147
Blackberry PIN 2005DD8F

-----Original Message-----
From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 2:35 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks

One more time real slow for you as it appears you have had troubles
understanding my previous posts (as quoted from prior post):
"
I
do not,
did not,
and
never will
condone
"paving"
"

the baseline requirments for attending were:
""required
> equipment would be:
> minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
> Front and rear lockers
> winch + hooks
> strong back (rocks are heavy)"

NEVER was the act of "paving" mentioned
I ALWAYS try to be prepared for worst case scenerio (is this not why
we bring jacks,winch,hooks,strap,gloves).
Just because I like to be prepared (as any responsible person would
be) does NOT mean I intend/plan on using such devices.
Do you / hard core wheelers use spotters who can not move a rock if
absolutely necessary? Why would you expect me/anyone not to be
prepared if necessary?

Finally, although worded slopily at 3AM (due to power outage) I
(although, as I said, I would not, nor would I condone paving) would
prefer any open trail to a closed trail. It is my position that NO
ONE (sierra club or you) has the right to deny responsible access to
any land (they do not own, i.e. NASCAR)

--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee McCullen" <mccullen@c...>
wrote:
> Nice to know someone is going to "take full credit for closure to
OHV trails
> and access"!!!!!!
>
> [[My position is that these lands must
> > remain open (gonna lose some friende here) even if it has to be
> > paved.]]
>
> PAVING and making by-passes will not keep lands / trails open.
>
> Thanks to recreationists like you we ALL WILL LOSE. NO ONE, not
me, not
> Chris, not Todd has said anything about "rock
> stacking"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have NOT been talking
about "rock
> stacking" or "throwing a rock or two to help"....... you have been
talking
> (as quoted above) about PAVING. Making the trail easier so you
and/or
> everyone/anyone can traverse it is called PAVING. Again .........
this kind
> of action and/or attitude will, and does, reflect on all of us and
WILL
> close our access whether you believe it or not!
>
> All the messages to you regarding "rocking" have been strictly
stating:
> "Don't go in if you plan on PAVING or making a by-pass. Making the
trail
> easier is not the same as "helping" a vehicle through. Simple trail
> etiquette calls for "removing" rocks placed to 'help'. Don't talk
about
> "competition" rock crawling in regards to "rock stacking".......
ALL
> competitions REQUIRE ALL ROCKS TO BE REMOVED and these guys don't
do much
> 'rock stacking' as they simply do not have the time to do so. This
is an
> example of what you've been told throughout these
posts......... "Leave the
> challenge for the vehicles capable of meeting it". No one has told
you you
> should never try a harder trail; no one has told you 'they have
specific
> trails and you don't'; no one has denied your right to "see our
beautiful
> country"........ you have only been asked to "drive where you are
capable
> of, play where you are capable of".......... WITHOUT ruining not
only the
> challenge but the trail as a whole.
>
> Let me tell you a short story of a possibility we are all facing
because of
> attitudes like yours:
> With the new RMP's being done there is consideration of the 3.5 and
less
> trails will be assessed and mapped........ ALL extreme trails will
be
> identified as: "Special Recreation Areas" and will require a permit
to
> access at all times..... Like Bull Dog Wash on the Tonto National
Forest
> BUT......... the agencies are considering a way to "tech" EACH
VEHICLE for
> proper equipment and EACH driver will have to sign a waiver
stating "all
> info to be true". Then........... if any driver is caught rock
paving or
> making by-passes they will be financially liable to return the area
back to
> it's original condition.
>
> Yes, I know, you're thinking "yeh, right".............. same as I
have. We
> probably all know this kind of lock down is impossible but they ARE
> considering something in this light............... BECAUSE of
attitudes
> like yours!!! Aren't you proud???!!
>
> Just because we're talking about PUBLIC lands does not give
EVERYONE the
> right to do as they please. I believe Chris mentioned to you that
there
> WILL BE numerous areas designated for SPECIFIC
recreation.......... That is
> what an IES is about. Certain areas just are not conducive to ALL
types or
> levels of recreation as you seem to think.
>
> I have been 4-wheeling probably longer than you've been on this
earth and
> have always cherished my 4-wheeling friends. They have been
supportive and
> considerate........... you certainly change that picture.
>
> Two words left........... GROW UP. Sandee
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 3:22 AM
> > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> >
> >
> > Thank you for showing your true colors - self ritcous pompus
> > controlling wannabe get to tell everyone where they can or cannot
go
> > based on how you thought it would possibly change the run;
> > As you may have been deaf and blind at the last blm meeting. I
and my
> > family enjoy exploring what shrinking habatat there is. They
should
> > not be limited to the hiking "elite". Nor should they be limited
to
> > the "extreeme four wheeler" My position is that these lands must
> > remain open (gonna lose some friende here) even if it has to be
> > paved.
> >
> > No One should have sole right to the beauty / solitude /
challange.
> > This or any canyon is not for any one group. The more people that
> > see theese trails, the more people will want to preserve it. The
> > trail is a trail, not your private playground. Not too long ago
your
> > house was bare desart, get rid of the stacking there so you may
have
> > your own private playground.
> > AlthoughI do not advocate wheel spinning, rockstatking, or
winching
> > thry do have their place in rare occasions, It is imperrative
these
> > lands remain open to ALL (forgive me for yelling) and not just the
> > owners of fab shops creating vehicles by whose standards leave
90% of
> > the club "not worthy" / wannabees (how many of you that dont' have
> > 60's front and rear,4link airlockers, 44's etc realized you were
just
> > labeled a wanabe, and therefore, by Ms. McCullen's judgement owing
> > gratitude for being allowed to travel the trails she and her sons
no
> > longer consider "challanging"? Maybe we should rent heavy
equipment
> > and go in and tear up the trails so that no one (except Sandy and
> > her sons) can enjoy.
> >
> > In response to your comment referring to my comment as "sounds
like
> > like the green eye of
> > > jealousy to me." Give me a break. There is not a speck
> > (possesions, ability or otherwise) that you and your world
traveled
> > multi lingual college educated kids and their "toys" have that I
> > would waste on starting a fire. My girls love spending time with
me
> > exploring in the Jeeps. I need nothing more to garner their full
> > love and devotion.
> >
> > Public land is public land. Just as I fight to keep the Sierra
Club
> > from blocking off land for a limited few, I resent Sandy and
others
> > for claiming that they have exclusive right to any area.
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee McCullen" <mccullen@c...>
> > wrote:
> > > OK........... my apologies in the use of "YOU". It was meant
to be
> > > directed at anyone that is into a trail they don't belong.....
or
> > those that
> > > seem to believe PAVING is simply a way to allow them to go where
> > they
> > > please! Yes, caps indicate yelling or very strong suggestion
and
> > that is
> > > exactly what I meant. I agree I was not there and I do
appreciate
> > the fact
> > > he did turn around, but he also slams the extreme wheeler and
> > indicated he
> > > had as much right on those trails as anyone else. NO he does
> > not.........
> > > not if it means the extreme wheeler has to lose any/all
challenge
> > they have
> > > because someone wants to "do what the big guys do". I'm so
tired
> > of this
> > > attitude and mentality. Just because someone builds a vehicle
> > capable of
> > > doing almost anything does not make them "the big guy",
or "GOD",
> > or anyone
> > > any different than you, I or the first time 4-wheeler.
> > >
> > > There were comments comparing the "damage" the buggies or rock
> > crawlers do
> > > ............ like leaving "semi-permanent marks" on the rocks.
Or
> > climbing
> > > "near vertical obstacles"........ sounds like like the green
eye of
> > > jealousy to me. This is not damage........ paving or making
by-
> > passes IS
> > > damage and abuse and these actions are what will close ALL our
> > trails.
> > > ......
> > >
> > > [As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the semi
> > > > >>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to
climb
> > near
> > > > >>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's
right
> > to
> > > > >>>> say where someone does or does not belong]
> > >
> > > This comes across to me as "I'll do as I please"........ "it's
my
> > right to
> > > stack rocks as long as the day is long", "I don't do any more
> > damage than
> > > the "rock scratchers" yada yada yada!! YES, it is MY RIGHT if
> > these kinds
> > > of actions lose the only challenge I have within my sport!
YES, I
> > AM
> > > YELLING Chris............... there are way too many
recreationists
> > out
> > > there that simply do NOT get the picture. Too many ATV's tear
> > across
> > > country, the 4-wheelers enter trails they are not capable of
doing,
> > many
> > > motorcycles go way to fast............... and we can't seem to
> > understand
> > > "WHY" we're losing everything. The agencies simply do not want
to
> > deal with
> > > the headaches of the recreationists not being
responsible. .....
> > Before
> > > you go off again, I'm not saying or claiming this Steve
was "not"
> > > responsible but his attitude is certainly in the grey area...
> > > There are LARGE groups of agency planners that feel the "graded
> > gravel roads
> > > should be enough for us". There are also LARGE numbers of new
> > personnel
> > > joining the land management agencies and believe
me.............,
> > for the
> > > most part, they are GREEN!!! Everyone seems to be into "saving"
> > something.
> > > Our battles will not be getting easier and abuse such as rock
> > paving and
> > > by-passes are the first issues to be held over us. We lost
> > Jawbreaker
> > > because of "rock paving"........ had vehicles going
> > through "DErocked" the
> > > obstacle after getting through the Tucson BLM wouldn't have had
> > anything to
> > > present to the courts to show "abuse". Game & Fish are no
better.
> > If it's
> > > not wildlife habitat destruction, it's "messing up the
watershed"
> > of the
> > > area or rock stacking is showing to alter the flow because it
tends
> > to hold
> > > silt or gravel instead of allowing it to wash down stream etc
etc
> > > etc............. there's desert tortoise, or a lizard, or
beetle
> > or a WEED.
> > > They'll use anything they can to shut out OHV
recreation.........
> > WHY do we
> > > insist on hurting ourselves!!!?
> > >
> > > I am rambling and will continue to do so until ALL of my fellow
4-
> > wheelers
> > > finally understand that we each have our own level of wheeling
and
> > to mess
> > > us someone elses challenge just to prove a point, will shut us
all
> > down.
> > >
> > > Sandee
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 5:40 PM
> > > > To: Sandee McCullen
> > > > Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I quote you:
> > > >
> > > > "If you cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with
rocks to
> > > > enable you to get through or across an obstacle........ YOU
DON'T
> > > > BELONG THERE!!"
> > > >
> > > > The use of "you" and the caps (internet yelling) make it look
> > like it
> > > > was directed to him. Sorry if I misinterpreted this.
> > > >
> > > > Your points are all correct, but it is incorrect to use them
> > against
> > > > Steve in this case, since we were not there and have no idea
in
> > what
> > > > condition he left the trail.
> > > >
> > > > If we are going to preach, we should do it in a general
manner.
> > It is
> > > > unfair to use someone else's post about a run to further our
> > ideas,
> > > > even if they are good ideas. To some, it will seem like we are
> > bashing
> > > > the post.
> > > >
> > > > I read Steve's post and thought it was very responsible that
they
> > did
> > > > what they did. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that they
> > unstacked
> > > > the rock. Remember, innocent until proven guilty works in may
ways
> > > > besides in a court of law, especially with friends and fellow
> > wheelers.
> > > > It was pointed out to me in an email from another member that
his
> > email
> > > > also indicated that they might stack rocks if they go back.
> > Again, I
> > > > give him the benefit of the doubt that they will unstack them
as
> > well.
> > > > If they do not, then I will lose and my trust of him will be
lost.
> > > >
> > > > Remember (and this is my final point since I don't want this
to
> > grow in
> > > > to more than it has), if we were to never wheel on trails that
> > there is
> > > > the potential that we will have to stack rocks, most of us
would
> > never
> > > > leave the graded dirt road. That would be a shame.
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > > On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 03:45 PM, Sandee McCullen
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Chris, I don't think anyone "jumped down anyones
> > throat".........
> > > > > simply
> > > > > stated "rock paving" is ruining our extreme trails and is
> > hurting us
> > > > > all.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have NO PROBLEM with turning around when finding a trail
is
> > too
> > > > > tough but
> > > > > you and I both KNOW that there are waaaaaay too many
vehicles
> > going
> > > > > into
> > > > > trails they KNOW they are not equipped to do without
rocking or
> > making
> > > > > by-passes! I hear over and over again....... "no problem,
> > we'll 'pull
> > > > > you
> > > > > through'". WHY???? Isn't actually "driving to the
individual
> > > > > challenge"
> > > > > what we're suppose to be about?
> > > > >
> > > > > I didn't pretend to "be there" and I didn't accuse anyone of
> > > > > "semi-permanent" damage. Nor did I accuse the rock
crawlers of
> > being
> > > > > "GODS". My message was to EVERYONE that are doing trails
above
> > thei