Yahoo Messages: 94269-94293 [Archive]

blooddrive

01-08-2004, 10:43 PM

94269-94293

94269 From: Tom Schenk <tomschenk1@y...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:10pm
Subject: Rock Stacking!

Please get off your(plural) soap boxes. We get it:
Rock stacking bad.
TIA,
Tom.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ADVERTISEMENT

94270 From: Ruben Aviles <azjeeper@h...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:34pm
Subject: ACOS (Adjustable Coil Over Spacers)

I just bought the ACOS's from 4 Wheelers Supply (going to try to level the
front end a little). Has anyone used these before? I haven't put them on
yet and thought I would get some feed back on it if anyone has installed
them.

Ruben Aviles..

>From: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>Reply-To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [az_vjc] Digest Number 4108
>Date: 11 Nov 2003 23:04:08 -0000
>
>There are 25 messages in this issue.
>
>Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Thermostat opinions???
> From: "Dan Dennis" <dannpegg@c...>
> 2. RE: Thermostat opinions???
> From: "Joe West" <joe.west@s...>
> 3. [TR] Unspecified - Saturday, November 15, 2003
> From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
> 4. Re: Thank you to all the Veterans out there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> From: "intertwingled" <intertwingled@q...>
> 5. Re: Thank you to all the Veterans out there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> From: "intertwingled" <intertwingled@q...>
> 6. Re: need help with some cj7 probs
> From: rokkcrawler@a...
> 7. Re: Need help with a steering/front end problem.
> From: Fred Wilson <fredtj@c...>
> 8. Re: OT--Welding question
> From: Fred Wilson <fredtj@c...>
> 9. Re: [Tech] 2001 TJ - 33's or 35's with 3.73 gears
> From: Fred Wilson <fredtj@c...>
> 10. Re: [Tech] 2001 TJ - 33's or 35's with 3.73 gears
> From: rokkcrawler@a...
> 11. Possible Jeep for sale
> From: "Jon Loveless-Jeep" <azjeepin@c...>
> 12. Re: [Arizona_Jeep_Club] Possible Jeep for sale
> From: "DougB" <azjeep@c...>
> 13. Oil sending unit...
> From: "Dan Dennis" <dannpegg@c...>
> 14. RE: Possible Jeep for sale
> From: "Joe West" <joe.west@s...>
> 15. [Tech] 1998 Cherokee - In need of hitch for cherokee
> From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
> 16. Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> From: "olneyjeeps" <olneyjeeps@y...>
> 17. Re: OT--Welding question
> From: "Linda" <minihummer@w...>
> 18. RE: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> From: "Sandee McCullen" <mccullen@c...>
> 19. Re: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@c...>
> 20. Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> From: "Sharky" <sharxjeep@c...>
> 21. New file uploaded to az_vjc
> From: az_vjc
> 22. RE: OT--Welding question
> From: "Keith" <khaw@n...>
> 23. RE: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> From: "Sandee McCullen" <mccullen@c...>
> 24. Needed YJ uppers Thanks
> From: "DesertJeep" <joey@d...>
> 25. RE: Crown King Trip
> From: "DesertJeep" <joey@d...>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:59:02 -0000
> From: "Dan Dennis" <dannpegg@c...>
>Subject: Thermostat opinions???
>
>By this weekend, I should have a replacement radiator (3 core metal)
>for BRUZR (97 TJ w/ 2.5l 4 cylinder) and figured it would be the
>perfect time to replace the hoses and thermostat. I've seen arguments
>for and against different temperature thermostats, but honestly it
>all confuses me.
>
>The higher temperature thermostats open at a higher temperature,
>right? So, this means the coolant stays in the radiator longer and
>lets the heat dissipate more, I take it...
>
>The lower temperature thermostats open at a lower temperature and the
>coolant cycles through the engine more often, NOT giving it time to
>dissipate as much, causing the engine to run hotter, right?
>
>What temperature thermostat should I get for the 3 core radiator
>combo to get the most out of my cooling system? Keep in mind that I
>live in Havasu (the State's hotspot most of the time - 125 degrees
>isn't uncommon.)
>
>TIA,
>
>Dan (AKA BRUZR's Daddy)
>97 TJ (BRUZR), Locked and Loaded in Lake Havasu City, AZ
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 11:15:40 -0800
> From: "Joe West" <joe.west@s...>
>Subject: RE: Thermostat opinions???
>
>Comments Inline....
>
>The higher temperature thermostats open at a higher temperature,
>right? So, this means the coolant stays in the radiator longer and
>lets the heat dissipate more, I take it...
>
>Yes... the higher temperature thermostats open at a higher temperature.
>No... it does not mean that the coolant stays in the radiator longer. The
>duration that the coolant stays in the radiator is a function of flow rate
>and not thermostat opening temperature.
>
>
>The lower temperature thermostats open at a lower temperature and the
>coolant cycles through the engine more often, NOT giving it time to
>dissipate as much, causing the engine to run hotter, right?
>
>Yes... the lower temperature thermostats open at a lower temperature.
>No... the opening temperature does not change the time the coolant remains
>in the radiator (although one could argue that a lower temperature causes
>the coolant passages to constrict, reducing coolant flow... I promise...
>this would not be a noticeable effect).
>
>
>What temperature thermostat should I get for the 3 core radiator
>combo to get the most out of my cooling system? Keep in mind that I
>live in Havasu (the State's hotspot most of the time - 125 degrees
>isn't uncommon.)
>
>And the answer is.... THE FACTORY TEMPERATURE THERMOSTAT (195 degrees I
>think).
>Reason? Because the factory changes the air/fuel ratio to the engine based
>on temperature... and a lower temperature thermostat will likely cause your
>TJ to run richer than it should which, if it is outside the normal control
>loop parameters defined in the lookup tables in the ECU, could cause you
>problems.
>
>Stick with the factory temperature thermostat and you can't go wrong.
>
>Joe West
>
>
>TIA,
>
>Dan (AKA BRUZR's Daddy)
>97 TJ (BRUZR), Locked and Loaded in Lake Havasu City, AZ
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:33:51 (GMT)
> From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
>Subject: [TR] Unspecified - Saturday, November 15, 2003
>
>Hello All,Scott E is leading an Unspecified trail run on Saturday, November
>15, 2003. When: TBD
>Where: TBD
>Rating: None
>Length:
>CB Channel:
>
>wondering if anyone wants to wheel sat. I was thinking about Martinez
>Canyon or maybe something north of phoenix. 
>someone that knows the trail better should lead, if no one shows interest
>or no one to lead signs up Ill cancel the trip. nothing tougher then 4.0.
> 
> 
> 
>
>
>
>
>http://www.azvjc.org/default.asp?A=1&ID=1089
>Click the link above To Add Your Name to the Sign Up List
>Thank You,
>
>- The AzVJC Website
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:38:47 -0700
> From: "intertwingled" <intertwingled@q...>
>Subject: Re: Thank you to all the Veterans out there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>That's right, Jeff Trujilla. Stop being cheap and get your Veteran's
>License Plate!
>
>Anthony Nemmer
>Air Force Veteran
>
>Chris wrote:
>
> >I want to say thank you for the sacrifices you have made, for
> >putting you life on the line and keeping us safe. We can never say
> >it enough, but THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> >Here is to hoping you all have a wonderful day.
> >
> >For anyone that thinks this is off topic, keep in mind if it were
> >not for the efforts of those in uniform we would not have the
> >freedom to even have this board, this club and the rights to use out
> >Jeeps.
> >
> >Let Freedom Ring!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> >Chris
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:39:21 -0700
> From: "intertwingled" <intertwingled@q...>
>Subject: Re: Thank you to all the Veterans out there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>Errm, I meant to say TrujillO in my previous email! =)
>
>Tony
>
>Chris wrote:
>
> >I want to say thank you for the sacrifices you have made, for
> >putting you life on the line and keeping us safe. We can never say
> >it enough, but THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> >Here is to hoping you all have a wonderful day.
> >
> >For anyone that thinks this is off topic, keep in mind if it were
> >not for the efforts of those in uniform we would not have the
> >freedom to even have this board, this club and the rights to use out
> >Jeeps.
> >
> >Let Freedom Ring!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> >Chris
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:57:30 EST
> From: rokkcrawler@a...
>Subject: Re: need help with some cj7 probs
>
>Try some WD40, spray all around and in where the latch plate meets the
>striker bolt. That has always seemed to work for me on my doors. The
>other
>alternative would be to take the door apart see if one of the rods is bent,
>readjust the rods where possible and spray the whole lock and latch
>assembly with WD
>40 to not only clean but lubricate.
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:00:21 -0700
> From: Fred Wilson <fredtj@c...>
>Subject: Re: Need help with a steering/front end problem.
>
>Sounds like you have bumpsteer (at least now), and not death wobble.
>Bumpsteer is when you hit any bump the Jeep wants to take off and turn
>itself.
>That's caused, mostly, by a misalignment of the track bar and drag link.
>You didn't say if you replaced the track bar or the alignment shop did.
>Anyway, the trackbar needs to be inline, as close as possible to the
>drag link.
>I'ld also check all the various tie rod ends and make sure that they are
>tight.
>You didn't mention which (brand) trackbar that you got. Since it's
>recently installed that's the first thing that I would check. Make sure
>the axle end and frame end are still tight, and that the bolts have
>loosened.
>Some brands have a tendency to do that.
>
>Best,
>Fred
>
>
>Mike H. wrote:
>
> >I will start out with what I have.
> >02 TJ 4.0 3" tera springs, Stock controll arms.
> >Adjustable trac bar from O.R.U. (same brand name as a shock)
> >JKS quick discos and everything else in the front end is stock.
> > I had a bad trac bar in the front for about 5k miles
> >and when I got it alligned I experienced major death wobble so I
> >bought the new trac bar.
> >Anyhow 3 weeks later I got another alignment because I was having
> >oversteer problems BAAAAAD and my alignment was off -.25
> >kinda wierd that it was off so quickly with no off roading or
> >upgrades except the trac bar.
> >Well I'm having the oversteer problem again. (whats oversteer you
> >ask) When I move the steering wheel 1 billionth of an inch the front
> >end moves 3 feet. I can hardly keep it in the lane when it's bumpy
> >and if I hit a bump in the middle of a turn heaven help the guy next
> >to me on the inside. I have almost written Goodyear on many doors in
> >the last few weeks..
> >
> >Has anyone experienced this? What did you do to fix it? My Jeep only
> >has 35k Miles on it. I'm thinking that replacing the controll arms
> >might help but I'm really not sure.
> >Thanks for any info you have,
> >Mike H.
> >
> >hiett710@y...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:02:04 -0700
> From: Fred Wilson <fredtj@c...>
>Subject: Re: OT--Welding question
>
>Rather than a Miller 135, I'ld *highly* suggest that you save a few more
>pennies and get the 220V Miller 175 or Hobart (which is made by Miller
>and a little less expensive).
>A 175 amp is really about the smallest that you can use on most "Jeep"
>things ;)
>
>
>Best,
>Fred
>
>
>Keith wrote:
>
> >I got a cheapie little wire feed welder {80a} welder from a cousin. I
> >know it's not going to be big enough. But I figure it's something to
> >learn with till I can afford a Miller135. I haven't had a welder in my
> >hand sense the early 70's. Anyway, what's the thickest I can weld with
> >this and expect it to hold? I'd like to build a welding cart/table,
> >about 2'X4". What should I use, angle or tubing, and thickness?
> >Thanks
> >Keith
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >-
> >FIGHT BACK AGAINST SPAM!
> >Download Spam Inspector, the Award Winning Anti-Spam Filter
> >http://mail.giantcompany.com
> >
> >
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:04:08 -0700
> From: Fred Wilson <fredtj@c...>
>Subject: Re: [Tech] 2001 TJ - 33's or 35's with 3.73 gears
>
>You'll probably "loose" 5th gear on anything except a downhill section
>of road.
>Off roading will be damn painfull without a 4:1 in the xfer case, and
>even with that will "hurt" with only 3.73's.
>4.88's will be best, and even that will require a 4:1 to 4 wheel in
>anything very rocky, where you need to crawl slowly.. You'll be slipping
>the hell out of your clutch.
>
>
>Fred
>
>
>
>AzVJC Website wrote:
>
> >Looking for new tires, I would like to know if anyone is running 35's
>with 3.73 gears 5 speed 4.0L.
> >Any input would be greatly appreciated.
> >Tom
> >rychtiks@e...
> >
> >
> >Tom Rychtik
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>Message: 10
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:12:51 EST
> From: rokkcrawler@a...
>Subject: Re: [Tech] 2001 TJ - 33's or 35's with 3.73 gears
>
>I had 4.56 gears with the same senario, wish I would have gotten 4.88's
>looking back. I wouild think your 3.73's in low range without a 4:1
>would feel
>like 4:88's in 4high and not low.
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>Message: 11
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:53:50 -0700
> From: "Jon Loveless-Jeep" <azjeepin@c...>
>Subject: Possible Jeep for sale
>
>I may have to sell my Jeep. Not sure yet, so this is just for feelers.
>
>1998 TJ 38,000 miles
>--------------------
>Dark Green
>4.0 L
>5 Speed
>Warn 9500i Winch with poly rope
>Custom Roll cage
>Custom Winch Plate
>Custom Spare Tire carrier
>Permanent steel back deck cover (no rear seat)
>37x12.5x15 MTRs - near new on Black Am Racing steel rims
>AirRaid RAM air cleaner
>Gibson CatBack
>TeraLow
>Tera2Lo
>TeraFlex 4" lift System
>1" body and motormount lift
>2" spring spacers
>Sun Rock Guards
>Kilby Gas Tank skid plate
>Front: DynaTrax High Pinion 44
>Rear: Tera CRD High Pinion 66
>4.56 gears
>ARB front and rear
>CO2 PowerTank with extra tank
>Disk brakes x 4
>CV shaft
>Cobra CB
>Firestick antenna
>Night rock lights
>3 point harness Driver and Passenger
>Bestop 1/2 cab SunRider
>Bestop rain cover
>1/2 doors and 2 sets windows (clear plexi and glass)
>$22,000
>Pictures at:
>http://www.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=67b0de21b3557f6a4576
>
>If you are interested please call at: 480-816-0963
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>Message: 12
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:55:49 -0700
> From: "DougB" <azjeep@c...>
>Subject: Re: [Arizona_Jeep_Club] Possible Jeep for sale
>
>WTF???
>
>Say it ain't so....
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jon Loveless-Jeep" <azjeepin@c...>
>To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 1:53 PM
>Subject: [Arizona_Jeep_Club] Possible Jeep for sale
>
>
>I may have to sell my Jeep. Not sure yet, so this is just for feelers.
>
>1998 TJ 38,000 miles
>--------------------
>Dark Green
>4.0 L
>5 Speed
>Warn 9500i Winch with poly rope
>Custom Roll cage
>Custom Winch Plate
>Custom Spare Tire carrier
>Permanent steel back deck cover (no rear seat)
>37x12.5x15 MTRs - near new on Black Am Racing steel rims
>AirRaid RAM air cleaner
>Gibson CatBack
>TeraLow
>Tera2Lo
>TeraFlex 4" lift System
>1" body and motormount lift
>2" spring spacers
>Sun Rock Guards
>Kilby Gas Tank skid plate
>Front: DynaTrax High Pinion 44
>Rear: Tera CRD High Pinion 66
>4.56 gears
>ARB front and rear
>CO2 PowerTank with extra tank
>Disk brakes x 4
>CV shaft
>Cobra CB
>Firestick antenna
>Night rock lights
>3 point harness Driver and Passenger
>Bestop 1/2 cab SunRider
>Bestop rain cover
>1/2 doors and 2 sets windows (clear plexi and glass)
>$22,000
>Pictures at:
>http://www.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=67b0de21b3557f6a4576
>
>If you are interested please call at: 480-816-0963
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Arizona_Jeep_Club-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>Message: 13
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:55:59 -0000
> From: "Dan Dennis" <dannpegg@c...>
>Subject: Oil sending unit...
>
>I need a new oil sending unit for my 97 TJ, 2.5l...I've found out
>that is a stealer only item and the local stealership (in Havasu)
>wants $65 for it. HOLY CRAP!!! Does anyone have a contact at one of
>the stealerships in Phoenix that can get one for WAAAY cheaper than
>that?
>
>TIA,
>Dan
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>Message: 14
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:02:11 -0800
> From: "Joe West" <joe.west@s...>
>Subject: RE: Possible Jeep for sale
>
>I get dibs on the rear axle!!!
>
>Joe F. West
>Applications Consultant Synopsys Corporation
>Cell (650)861-1359 Office (480) 733-2147
>Blackberry PIN 2005DD8F
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jon Loveless-Jeep [mailto:azjeepin@c...]
>Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 1:54 PM
>To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [az_vjc] Possible Jeep for sale
>
>
>I may have to sell my Jeep. Not sure yet, so this is just for feelers.
>
>1998 TJ 38,000 miles
>--------------------
>Dark Green
>4.0 L
>5 Speed
>Warn 9500i Winch with poly rope
>Custom Roll cage
>Custom Winch Plate
>Custom Spare Tire carrier
>Permanent steel back deck cover (no rear seat)
>37x12.5x15 MTRs - near new on Black Am Racing steel rims
>AirRaid RAM air cleaner
>Gibson CatBack
>TeraLow
>Tera2Lo
>TeraFlex 4" lift System
>1" body and motormount lift
>2" spring spacers
>Sun Rock Guards
>Kilby Gas Tank skid plate
>Front: DynaTrax High Pinion 44
>Rear: Tera CRD High Pinion 66
>4.56 gears
>ARB front and rear
>CO2 PowerTank with extra tank
>Disk brakes x 4
>CV shaft
>Cobra CB
>Firestick antenna
>Night rock lights
>3 point harness Driver and Passenger
>Bestop 1/2 cab SunRider
>Bestop rain cover
>1/2 doors and 2 sets windows (clear plexi and glass)
>$22,000
>Pictures at:
>http://www.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=67b0de21b3557f6a4576
>
>If you are interested please call at: 480-816-0963
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>Message: 15
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:13:18 (GMT)
> From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
>Subject: [Tech] 1998 Cherokee - In need of hitch for cherokee
>
>I am looking for a hitch for my 98 cherokee classic. I have several places
>to buy a new hitch but thought one of the members out there may have one
>they have taken off for clearance. Anyone have what im looking for???
> Thanks..
>
>
>Brian Freyberger
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>Message: 16
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:26:42 -0000
> From: "olneyjeeps" <olneyjeeps@y...>
>Subject: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
>
>
>Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it appears you would
>like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
>As it appears you coulden't read the first time from your throne:
>
>1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a reasonable / responsible
>driver) because I had determined that (at that time) I was not
>properly equiped and did not have the resources if I were to get into
>trouble.
>2) I did recommend / advise against attempting without lots of
>clearance.
>
>Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
> "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
>As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the semi
>perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to climb near
>vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's right to
>say where someone does or does not belong (I don't recall seeing you
>at the last BLM meeting either)
>FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of a
>wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
>minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."
>
> "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it, you do not belong
>on that trail."
>I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted (which I'm sure you
>always use before spinning all four gouging and spiting rock and
>admitting lack of ability to move unassisted). Let's compare
>possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash vs. tire scars on
>vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng attended several
>competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never stacked a rock or two
>for you, right?
>By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling / hiking in this area
>since the early 70's; you?
>
>See you at the next BLM meeting
>Steve
>
> > Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
> > This trail has been run by experienced drivers and rigs equipped to
>do it,
> > without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to stack rocks 20
>yards into
> > it, you do not belong on that trail.
> > There are plenty of trails out there for everyones level.
> >
> > Todd
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
> > >
> > >Earlier this year, after talking with many people and surveying
> > from
> > >the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
> > >The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is really really
> > really
> > >nasty. Because the other members of the group did not want to go
>further,
> > >I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only the first 20-30
>yards; it
> > >took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of stacking+ body
>damage to
> > >get back out.
> > >I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint hint) but
> > required
> > >equipment would be:
> > >minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
> > >Front and rear lockers
> > >winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
> > >
> > >Call if interested
> > >Steve Olney
> >
> > __________________________________________________ _______________
> > From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music is always
>playing
> > on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE!
> > http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>Message: 17
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:52:58 -0000
> From: "Linda" <minihummer@w...>
>Subject: Re: OT--Welding question
>
>Actually you can weld any thickness metal you want with it -- it just
>depends on the number of passes you have to make. What type of welder
>do you have? flux core (FCAW), mig (GMAW), electroslag (ESAW),
>submerged (SAW)? They are all wire-fed arc welders, though the last
>two, ESAW and SAW are not commonly used by hobbyists, but you never
>know!!
>
>Anyway, here's a site that contains simple descriptions of the GMAW
>and FCAW processes as well as one-pass limits for 110v and 220v
>welders.
>
>http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/content/migvsfluxcor
>ed.asp
>
>
>--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <khaw@n...> wrote:
> > I got a cheapie little wire feed welder {80a} welder from a cousin.
>I
> > know it's not going to be big enough. But I figure it's something to
> > learn with till I can afford a Miller135. I haven't had a welder in
>my
> > hand sense the early 70's. Anyway, what's the thickest I can weld
>with
> > this and expect it to hold? I'd like to build a welding cart/table,
> > about 2'X4". What should I use, angle or tubing, and thickness?
> > Thanks
> > Keith
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
>----
> > -
> > FIGHT BACK AGAINST SPAM!
> > Download Spam Inspector, the Award Winning Anti-Spam Filter
> > http://mail.giantcompany.com
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>Message: 18
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:57:58 -0700
> From: "Sandee McCullen" <mccullen@c...>
>Subject: RE: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
>
>
>Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing trails via ROCK PAVING
>needs to stop.
>
>Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line is simply: If you
>cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks to enable you to get
>through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T BELONG THERE!! The "semi
>permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do with "ruining a good
>trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of paving is what is "ruining
>the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now and then to "help" is
>done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy would have you REMOVE
>the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of the obstacle. There
>are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge" for every level of
>4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the extreme driver/vehicle is
>what is causing the problems and is what is in discussion from your
>message.
>This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's ALL of us.........
>respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for all.
>
>Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock crawling with no, or
>very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS! All they're asking is
>the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do whatever they wish
>STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
>
>We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are not happy about "rock
>paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the watershed or natural
>layout
>of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother Nature does a good job of
>keeping trails natural but some of the stacking/paving happening today is
>well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
> [FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of a
> > wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
> > minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."] This may
>not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good trail" but it is if
>YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother Nature may make a
>trail easier or harder but that should be left to nature NOT YOU or other
>want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have been wheel'n Arizona
>and
>California since BEFORE the early 70's. For whatever that's worth??????
>
>
>Again, if you cannot traverse a trail or obstacle with your vehicle, winch,
>tires and/or ability and have to rock PAVE....... You don't belong there.
>
>Sandee
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:27 PM
> > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> >
> >
> >
> > Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it appears you would
> > like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
> > As it appears you coulden't read the first time from your throne:
> >
> > 1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a reasonable / responsible
> > driver) because I had determined that (at that time) I was not
> > properly equiped and did not have the resources if I were to get into
> > trouble.
> > 2) I did recommend / advise against attempting without lots of
> > clearance.
> >
> > Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
> > "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
> > As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the semi
> > perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to climb near
> > vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's right to
> > say where someone does or does not belong (I don't recall seeing you
> > at the last BLM meeting either)
> > FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of a
> > wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
> > minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."
> >
> > "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it, you do not belong
> > on that trail."
> > I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted (which I'm sure you
> > always use before spinning all four gouging and spiting rock and
> > admitting lack of ability to move unassisted). Let's compare
> > possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash vs. tire scars on
> > vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng attended several
> > competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never stacked a rock or two
> > for you, right?
> > By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling / hiking in this area
> > since the early 70's; you?
> >
> > See you at the next BLM meeting
> > Steve
> >
> > > Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
> > > This trail has been run by experienced drivers and rigs equipped to
> > do it,
> > > without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to stack rocks 20
> > yards into
> > > it, you do not belong on that trail.
> > > There are plenty of trails out there for everyones level.
> > >
> > > Todd
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
> > > >
> > > >Earlier this year, after talking with many people and surveying
> > > from
> > > >the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
> > > >The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is really really
> > > really
> > > >nasty. Because the other members of the group did not want to go
> > further,
> > > >I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only the first 20-30
> > yards; it
> > > >took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of stacking+ body
> > damage to
> > > >get back out.
> > > >I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint hint) but
> > > required
> > > >equipment would be:
> > > >minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
> > > >Front and rear lockers
> > > >winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
> > > >
> > > >Call if interested
> > > >Steve Olney
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________ _______________
> > > From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music is always
> > playing
> > > on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE!
> > > http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>Message: 19
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:27:54 -0700
> From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@c...>
>Subject: Re: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
>
>Sandy and Todd, um, did either of you read his run description?
>They turned around after deciding they were beyond their capabilities.
>The rock stacking was done to get back out. No lectures should be given
>because they had no idea what the trail ahead was like.
>In my opinion, they did the sensible thing. They gave it a try (aren't
>we all allowed to do this, it being public land and all?) and called it
>quits when it became apparent that it was beyond their capabilities. So
>a few rocks were stacked to get them back out. At least they didn't
>just continue on and stack the entire trail as others probably would
>have. Besides, he never said he didn't unstack them.
>
>Everyone, please don't be so quick to jump down the other guys/girls
>throat, ESPECIALLY if you weren't there or do not know all the facts.
>When you make assumptions without facts, you just make yourself look
>bad and create ill will in the group. We have enough bickering here
>lately. Lets work to save our trails, not bicker about who can play
>where.
>
>Just my $.02
>
>Chris
>
>On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 02:57 PM, Sandee McCullen wrote:
>
> >
> > Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing trails via ROCK
> > PAVING
> > needs to stop.
> >
> > Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line is simply: If
> > you
> > cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks to enable you
> > to get
> > through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T BELONG THERE!! The
> > "semi
> > permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do with "ruining a good
> > trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of paving is what is
> > "ruining
> > the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now and then to "help"
> > is
> > done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy would have you
> > REMOVE
> > the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of the obstacle.
> > There
> > are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge" for every level of
> > 4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the extreme driver/vehicle
> > is
> > what is causing the problems and is what is in discussion from your
> > message.
> > This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's ALL of us.........
> > respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for all.
> >
> > Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock crawling with no,
> > or
> > very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS! All they're
> > asking is
> > the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do whatever they
> > wish
> > STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
> >
> > We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are not happy about
> > "rock
> > paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the watershed or natural
> > layout
> > of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother Nature does a good job
> > of
> > keeping trails natural but some of the stacking/paving happening today
> > is
> > well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
> > [FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of a
> >> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
> >> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."] This
> >> may
> > not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good trail" but it is
> > if
> > YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother Nature may make a
> > trail easier or harder but that should be left to nature NOT YOU or
> > other
> > want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have been wheel'n
> > Arizona and
> > California since BEFORE the early 70's. For whatever that's
> > worth??????
> >
> >
> > Again, if you cannot traverse a trail or obstacle with your vehicle,
> > winch,
> > tires and/or ability and have to rock PAVE....... You don't belong
> > there.
> >
> > Sandee
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:27 PM
> >> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it appears you would
> >> like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
> >> As it appears you coulden't read the first time from your throne:
> >>
> >> 1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a reasonable / responsible
> >> driver) because I had determined that (at that time) I was not
> >> properly equiped and did not have the resources if I were to get into
> >> trouble.
> >> 2) I did recommend / advise against attempting without lots of
> >> clearance.
> >>
> >> Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
> >> "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
> >> As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the semi
> >> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to climb near
> >> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's right to
> >> say where someone does or does not belong (I don't recall seeing you
> >> at the last BLM meeting either)
> >> FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of a
> >> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
> >> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."
> >>
> >> "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it, you do not belong
> >> on that trail."
> >> I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted (which I'm sure you
> >> always use before spinning all four gouging and spiting rock and
> >> admitting lack of ability to move unassisted). Let's compare
> >> possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash vs. tire scars on
> >> vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng attended several
> >> competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never stacked a rock or two
> >> for you, right?
> >> By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling / hiking in this area
> >> since the early 70's; you?
> >>
> >> See you at the next BLM meeting
> >> Steve
> >>
> >>> Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
> >>> This trail has been run by experienced drivers and rigs equipped to
> >> do it,
> >>> without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to stack rocks 20
> >> yards into
> >>> it, you do not belong on that trail.
> >>> There are plenty of trails out there for everyones level.
> >>>
> >>> Todd
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
> >>>>
> >>>> Earlier this year, after talking with many people and surveying
> >>> from
> >>>> the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
> >>>> The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is really really
> >>> really
> >>>> nasty. Because the other members of the group did not want to go
> >> further,
> >>>> I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only the first 20-30
> >> yards; it
> >>>> took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of stacking+ body
> >> damage to
> >>>> get back out.
> >>>> I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint hint) but
> >>> required
> >>>> equipment would be:
> >>>> minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
> >>>> Front and rear lockers
> >>>> winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
> >>>>
> >>>> Call if interested
> >>>> Steve Olney
> >>>
> >>> __________________________________________________ _______________
> >>> From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music is always
> >> playing
> >>> on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE!
> >>> http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>Message: 20
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:29:02 -0000
> From: "Sharky" <sharxjeep@c...>
>Subject: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
>
>Very well said Sandee...
>Sharky
>
>--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee McCullen" <mccullen@c...>
>wrote:
> >
> > Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing trails via ROCK
>PAVING
> > needs to stop.
> >
> > Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line is simply:
>If you
> > cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks to enable
>you to get
> > through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T BELONG THERE!!
>The "semi
> > permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do with "ruining a
>good
> > trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of paving is what
>is "ruining
> > the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now and then
>to "help" is
> > done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy would have you
>REMOVE
> > the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of the
>obstacle. There
> > are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge" for every level
>of
> > 4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the extreme
>driver/vehicle is
> > what is causing the problems and is what is in discussion from your
>message.
> > This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's ALL of
>us.........
> > respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for all.
> >
> > Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock crawling with
>no, or
> > very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS! All they're
>asking is
> > the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do whatever they
>wish
> > STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
> >
> > We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are not happy
>about "rock
> > paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the watershed or
>natural layout
> > of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother Nature does a good
>job of
> > keeping trails natural but some of the stacking/paving happening
>today is
> > well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
> > [FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom
>of a
> > > wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
> > > minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."]
>This may
> > not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good trail" but it
>is if
> > YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother Nature may
>make a
> > trail easier or harder but that should be left to nature NOT YOU or
>other
> > want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have been wheel'n
>Arizona and
> > California since BEFORE the early 70's. For whatever that's
>worth??????
> >
> >
> > Again, if you cannot traverse a trail or obstacle with your
>vehicle, winch,
> > tires and/or ability and have to rock PAVE....... You don't belong
>there.
> >
> > Sandee
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:27 PM
> > > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it appears you
>would
> > > like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
> > > As it appears you coulden't read the first time from your throne:
> > >
> > > 1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a reasonable / responsible
> > > driver) because I had determined that (at that time) I was not
> > > properly equiped and did not have the resources if I were to get
>into
> > > trouble.
> > > 2) I did recommend / advise against attempting without lots of
> > > clearance.
> > >
> > > Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
> > > "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
> > > As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the semi
> > > perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to climb near
> > > vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's right to
> > > say where someone does or does not belong (I don't recall seeing
>you
> > > at the last BLM meeting either)
> > > FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom
>of a
> > > wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
> > > minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."
> > >
> > > "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it, you do not
>belong
> > > on that trail."
> > > I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted (which I'm sure you
> > > always use before spinning all four gouging and spiting rock and
> > > admitting lack of ability to move unassisted). Let's compare
> > > possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash vs. tire scars
>on
> > > vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng attended several
> > > competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never stacked a rock or
>two
> > > for you, right?
> > > By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling / hiking in this area
> > > since the early 70's; you?
> > >
> > > See you at the next BLM meeting
> > > Steve
> > >
> > > > Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
> > > > This trail has been run by experienced drivers and rigs
>equipped to
> > > do it,
> > > > without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to stack rocks 20
> > > yards into
> > > > it, you do not belong on that trail.
> > > > There are plenty of trails out there for everyones level.
> > > >
> > > > Todd
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
> > > > >
> > > > >Earlier this year, after talking with many people and surveying
> > > > from
> > > > >the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
> > > > >The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is really really
> > > > really
> > > > >nasty. Because the other members of the group did not want to
>go
> > > further,
> > > > >I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only the first 20-
>30
> > > yards; it
> > > > >took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of stacking+ body
> > > damage to
> > > > >get back out.
> > > > >I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint hint) but
> > > > required
> > > > >equipment would be:
> > > > >minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
> > > > >Front and rear lockers
> > > > >winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
> > > > >
> > > > >Call if interested
> > > > >Steve Olney
> > > >
> > > >
>__________________________________________________ _______________
> > > > From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music is
>always
> > > playing
> > > > on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE!
> > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>Message: 21
> Date: 11 Nov 2003 22:34:22 -0000
> From: az_vjc
>Subject: New file uploaded to az_vjc
>
>
>Hello,
>
>This email message is a notification to let you know that
>a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the az_vjc
>group.
>
> File : /Click here for a great dating service
> Uploaded by : bilozobusi0442 <bilozobusi0442@y...>
> Description : Browse through singles
>
>You can access this file at the URL
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/files/Click%20here%20for%20a%20great%20dating%20service
>
>To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit
>
>http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
>
>Regards,
>
>bilozobusi0442 <bilozobusi0442@y...>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>Message: 22
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:40:56 -0700
> From: "Keith" <khaw@n...>
>Subject: RE: OT--Welding question
>
>Thanks for the advice.. I'd love to get a 175 but aren't they 220v
>units? Anyway it will probably be awhile before I can get one. The
>little flux core is going to have to do for now.
>
>Keith
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>FIGHT BACK AGAINST SPAM!
>Download Spam Inspector, the Award Winning Anti-Spam Filter
>http://mail.giantcompany.com
>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>Message: 23
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:45:21 -0700
> From: "Sandee McCullen" <mccullen@c...>
>Subject: RE: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
>
>Chris, I don't think anyone "jumped down anyones throat"......... simply
>stated "rock paving" is ruining our extreme trails and is hurting us all.
>
>I have NO PROBLEM with turning around when finding a trail is too tough but
>you and I both KNOW that there are waaaaaay too many vehicles going into
>trails they KNOW they are not equipped to do without rocking or making
>by-passes! I hear over and over again....... "no problem, we'll 'pull you
>through'". WHY???? Isn't actually "driving to the individual challenge"
>what we're suppose to be about?
>
>I didn't pretend to "be there" and I didn't accuse anyone of
>"semi-permanent" damage. Nor did I accuse the rock crawlers of being
>"GODS". My message was to EVERYONE that are doing trails above their
>ability, rock paving or making by-passes to get through to stay within
>their
>own challenge limitations. These actions WILL affect ALL of us in the near
>future and it won't be what anyone wants to hear. This kind of abuse is
>closing trails across the country. The agencies are having a tough enough
>time understanding the "challenge" of extreme 4-wheeling, but when all they
>see is the rock paving, by-passes, oil spills, and vegetation winched out
>of
>the ground they simply declare "abuse and resource damage" and close
>everything. It's going to take ALL of us to truly show RESPONSIBLE use of
>our recreation trails system................
>
>The responses from Todd and myself simply stated "to stay on trails within
>individual vehicle and/or driver capabilities"............. or "UNSTACK if
>the need for rocks is called for".
>
>Sandee
>
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 3:28 PM
> > To: Sandee McCullen
> > Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> >
> >
> > Sandy and Todd, um, did either of you read his run description?
> > They turned around after deciding they were beyond their capabilities.
> > The rock stacking was done to get back out. No lectures should be given
> > because they had no idea what the trail ahead was like.
> > In my opinion, they did the sensible thing. They gave it a try (aren't
> > we all allowed to do this, it being public land and all?) and called it
> > quits when it became apparent that it was beyond their capabilities. So
> > a few rocks were stacked to get them back out. At least they didn't
> > just continue on and stack the entire trail as others probably would
> > have. Besides, he never said he didn't unstack them.
> >
> > Everyone, please don't be so quick to jump down the other guys/girls
> > throat, ESPECIALLY if you weren't there or do not know all the facts.
> > When you make assumptions without facts, you just make yourself look
> > bad and create ill will in the group. We have enough bickering here
> > lately. Lets work to save our trails, not bicker about who can play
> > where.
> >
> > Just my $.02
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 02:57 PM, Sandee McCullen wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing trails via ROCK
> > > PAVING
> > > needs to stop.
> > >
> > > Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line is simply: If
> > > you
> > > cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks to enable you
> > > to get
> > > through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T BELONG THERE!! The
> > > "semi
> > > permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do with "ruining a good
> > > trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of paving is what is
> > > "ruining
> > > the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now and then to "help"
> > > is
> > > done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy would have you
> > > REMOVE
> > > the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of the obstacle.
> > > There
> > > are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge" for every level of
> > > 4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the extreme driver/vehicle
> > > is
> > > what is causing the problems and is what is in discussion from your
> > > message.
> > > This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's ALL of us.........
> > > respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for all.
> > >
> > > Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock crawling with no,
> > > or
> > > very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS! All they're
> > > asking is
> > > the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do whatever they
> > > wish
> > > STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
> > >
> > > We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are not happy about
> > > "rock
> > > paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the watershed or natural
> > > layout
> > > of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother Nature does a good job
> > > of
> > > keeping trails natural but some of the stacking/paving happening today
> > > is
> > > well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
> > > [FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of a
> > >> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
> > >> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."] This
> > >> may
> > > not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good trail" but it is
> > > if
> > > YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother Nature may make
>a
> > > trail easier or harder but that should be left to nature NOT YOU or
> > > other
> > > want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have been wheel'n
> > > Arizona and
> > > California since BEFORE the early 70's. For whatever that's
> > > worth??????
> > >
> > >
> > > Again, if you cannot traverse a trail or obstacle with your vehicle,
> > > winch,
> > > tires and/or ability and have to rock PAVE....... You don't belong
> > > there.
> > >
> > > Sandee
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:27 PM
> > >> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > >> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it appears you would
> > >> like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
> > >> As it appears you coulden't read the first time from your throne:
> > >>
> > >> 1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a reasonable / responsible
> > >> driver) because I had determined that (at that time) I was not
> > >> properly equiped and did not have the resources if I were to get into
> > >> trouble.
> > >> 2) I did recommend / advise against attempting without lots of
> > >> clearance.
> > >>
> > >> Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
> > >> "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
> > >> As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the semi
> > >> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to climb near
> > >> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's right to
> > >> say where someone does or does not belong (I don't recall seeing you
> > >> at the last BLM meeting either)
> > >> FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of a
> > >> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
> > >> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."
> > >>
> > >> "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it, you do not belong
> > >> on that trail."
> > >> I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted (which I'm sure you
> > >> always use before spinning all four gouging and spiting rock and
> > >> admitting lack of ability to move unassisted). Let's compare
> > >> possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash vs. tire scars on
> > >> vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng attended several
> > >> competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never stacked a rock or two
> > >> for you, right?
> > >> By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling / hiking in this area
> > >> since the early 70's; you?
> > >>
> > >> See you at the next BLM meeting
> > >> Steve
> > >>
> > >>> Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
> > >>> This trail has been run by experienced drivers and rigs equipped to
> > >> do it,
> > >>> without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to stack rocks 20
> > >> yards into
> > >>> it, you do not belong on that trail.
> > >>> There are plenty of trails out there for everyones level.
> > >>>
> > >>> Todd
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Earlier this year, after talking with many people and surveying
> > >>> from
> > >>>> the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
> > >>>> The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is really really
> > >>> really
> > >>>> nasty. Because the other members of the group did not want to go
> > >> further,
> > >>>> I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only the first 20-30
> > >> yards; it
> > >>>> took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of stacking+ body
> > >> damage to
> > >>>> get back out.
> > >>>> I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint hint) but
> > >>> required
> > >>>> equipment would be:
> > >>>> minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
> > >>>> Front and rear lockers
> > >>>> winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Call if interested
> > >>>> Steve Olney
> > >>>
> > >>> __________________________________________________ _______________
> > >>> From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music is always
> > >> playing
> > >>> on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE!
> > >>> http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>Message: 24
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:01:51 -0700
> From: "DesertJeep" <joey@d...>
>Subject: Needed YJ uppers Thanks
>
>Hey I need a pair of black YJ uppers too (for the doors. Skins will
>work). :D Can someone help me out?
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: dbkcs [mailto:dbkcs@y...]
>Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 7:48 PM
>To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [az_vjc] YJ uppers Thanks
>
>Just wanted to say thanks to all that responded for the uppers. I
>got a call shortly after placing it and went and picked them up.
>Thanks Steve the girls were much warmer today. :) Steve
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>Message: 25
> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:03:59 -0700
> From: "DesertJeep" <joey@d...>
>Subject: RE: Crown King Trip
>
>NOPE not me I think you are thinking of Scott Maiden's green YJ. He has
>been know to push his Jeep past the edge a couple of times. :p
>
>Joey K
>93YJ still upright.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Hackle [mailto:hackle@q...]
>Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 6:59 PM
>To: laredo0249; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Crown King Trip
>
> If it was a White YJ it is probably Joey K again. He will be
>back in a
>couple days looking for his Jeep. BTW be careful as when he goes on
>these
>"trips" he feels it is clothing optional:) Jim F.
>
>Arizona RockRats President
>http://www.rockrats.org/
>"I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member" Groucho
>Marx
>Member of the original dirty half dozen.
>http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: laredo0249 [mailto:Dslywalker1@a...]
>Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 6:54 PM
>To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [az_vjc] Crown King Trip
>
>
>Just curious there was a red Jeep yesterday 11/9/03 that run off the
>road out of Crown King about 5 in the afternoon.I don't know if it
>supported a Club Sticker but our Fire Dept. responded to it.There was
>supposed to be 2 people out of there Jeep walking around.By the time
>we got to the incident there was no one there but the Jeep.Any incite
>on this issue?
> Thanx Mike
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>__________________________________________________ ______________________
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

__________________________________________________ _______________
Frustrated with dial-up? Get high-speed for as low as $26.95.
https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.)

94271 From: k7ant <k7ant@f...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:08pm
Subject: Moab

Just got this off of JU

"Land Closure- Moab http://www.gljt.org/modules.php?
nam...c&p=10616#10616 Follow the links

Antman

94272 From: Matt OBrien <makaioo@y...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:13pm
Subject: Re: WORK GROUPS REMINDER

Work precludes me from helping out during the week but Saturday
might be possible. I'd planned on attending the 202 Loop ceremonies
but can maybe help with setting posts also/instead. Maybe I can head
over from the highway opening. Where exactly will the work be taking
place or will folks be meeting? GPS coords are best, but an
intersection or directions will work too (for we new-to-AZ folks
still learning the area).

I may be also available for the 11/22-23 weekend policing duties.
Again, coords or more precise location info needed.

Thanks,

Matt
K7MTO

p.s. Sooner or later I may manage to make an actual trail run rather
than BLM meetings, highway openings, work trips, Tech workshops,
etc, but hey, I've only been in AZ for 3 weeks :)

--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee McCullen" <mccullen@c...>
wrote:
> Also please mark your calendars for the weekend of the 22nd and
> 23rd............... this will be to help law enforcement along
Ironwood Rd
> in apache Junction to direct the riders to the planned and
designated riding
> area. Those that fight it will be cited. Same place, same time.

94273 From: Matt OBrien <makaioo@y...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:14pm
Subject: Re: Moab

Try this link...

http://www.cruiseroutfitters.com/landuse_helldorado.html

--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "k7ant" <k7ant@f...> wrote:
> Just got this off of JU
> "Land Closure- Moab http://www.gljt.org/modules.php?
> nam...c&p=10616#10616 Follow the links

94274 From: <Hydrosense@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:20pm
Subject: ATTN: JOE WEST!!!!!!!!!

Hey joe I just realized that the kill switch clinic this sunday is on my
daughters 3rd birthday, so can you hold my ticket/$$ for the next one whenever, or
can we get toghether sometime else and do it? Rob B Y2K-XJ

94275 From: Mike & Karen Acuna <mkacuna@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:35pm
Subject: Re: [OT] Help cheap car needed

Call Jim Holt over at Accurate Diagnostics and Auto Repair...........he has
a few cars for sale starting at around $500. Let him know your in the club
and he will help you out.

Accurate Diagnostics and Auto Repair
2637 E Bell Rd
602-393-0773

Mike
98 ZJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "trmn8rjn98" <trmn8rjn98@a...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 6:56 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] [OT] Help cheap car needed

> Hi my cousin was badly injured in an accident when his horse fell &
> landed on him. As a result he has not been able to work & had to sell
> his truck before it got repoed. He is just looking for something he
> can get around in. Not worried about looks much & I can & will do
> some work on it for him. We are just looking for something that he
> can get around in in the $500 range. Please let me know if you have
> anything
> thanks
> John
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

94276 From: <hunteroffroad@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:35pm
Subject: Re: OT--Welding question

Oh Craig, young grasshopper, you have learned well my son... <grin>

Keith,
For a cart, 1/8 would be plenty for what you are doing. Good luck...

Best Regards
The Silent John K

In a message dated 11/11/2003 9:03:00 AM Pacific Standard Time,
micekc@e... writes:
While definetly not the authority on this subject (shut up John K) I would
say 1/8" maybe 3/16" if you do excellent prep.
If your saving up, wait a little longer and get a 220V machine. It will
then do everything you want and you will be glad you did.

Craig

----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith" <khaw@n...>
To: "ArizonaXJ" <arizonaXJ@yahoogroups.com>; "Az_VJC"
<az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 9:41 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] OT--Welding question

> I got a cheapie little wire feed welder {80a} welder from a cousin. I
> know it's not going to be big enough. But I figure it's something to
> learn with till I can afford a Miller135. I haven't had a welder in my
> hand sense the early 70's. Anyway, what's the thickest I can weld with
> this and expect it to hold? I'd like to build a welding cart/table,
> about 2'X4". What should I use, angle or tubing, and thickness?
> Thanks
> Keith

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

94277 From: <hunteroffroad@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:46pm
Subject: Re: OT--Welding question Some tips

In a message dated 11/11/2003 9:03:00 AM Pacific Standard Time,
micekc@e... writes:
> I got a cheapie little wire feed welder {80a} welder from a cousin. I
> know it's not going to be big enough. But I figure it's something to
> learn with till I can afford a Miller135. I haven't had a welder in my
> hand sense the early 70's. Anyway, what's the thickest I can weld with
> this and expect it to hold? I'd like to build a welding cart/table,
> about 2'X4". What should I use, angle or tubing, and thickness?
> Thanks
> Keith
Keith,
You may have some troubles with your 80 amp on 3/16ths. Here is a couple
of tricks that might help you cheat. I am not sure if 80A would be enough
to do any serious welding, (like welding a spring perch, roll cage or
something). But probaly get away with makin a kick *** tool rack.

A couple of hints... if you are useing flux core (no gas) you will be
better off, Flux-core does burn hotter than gas shelided wire. Its messy, but
it does burn better for pentration.

Also, try and clamp your ground right to the part you are workign on. If
you are clamping off a metal table and welding on soemthing on it, you will lose
current thru resistance. So keep the contact as close as possible.. (with
in reason dont have to be 6" away from it)
(Example... welding up a 2 foot peice of angle iron, clamp the piece, dont
work off a metal table)

Craig was right. Prep well make all the diffrence, grind of the mill-crust
off the peices and get it shiney, will help alot not haveing to burn through
all that.

Also, if its going to be a some what structual peice, do be afriad to do a
double pass or triple. if you are usieng flux-core, hit it with a metal brush
first to help clean it up a bit

Hope that helps
Good luck

John k

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

94278 From: Mike H. <hiett710@y...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:53pm
Subject: Re: Need help with a steering/front end problem.

Joe,
They did tell me a bit about the caster being off. I'm thinking about
getting some R.E. Adjustable L.C.A.'s for the front. Would this do
the trick?
Mike H.

--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <flexyxj98@m...> wrote:
> Mike, I see this everyday....A tera 3T kit is the base kit that
does
> not come with lower arms......Problem......it WILL wander, due to
not
> having enough positive caster...I have never been able to get more
> than 4.5-5.2 degrees of caster from a 3T kit, even with cams....You
> need to have at LEAST 8.5-9.5 degrees caster for proper
> driveability....and "Over-steer" is not what you think it
is......it
> is actually an action that happens when you steer into a corner in
a
> vehicle and the front end pushes.....BTW....what align shop did the
> alignment???? Didnt they tell you that the specs are WAAAAAAAy out
> of factory allowances?????
>
>
> FlexyXJ
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Mike H." <hiett710@y...> wrote:
> > I will start out with what I have.
> > 02 TJ 4.0 3" tera springs, Stock controll arms.
> > Adjustable trac bar from O.R.U. (same brand name as a shock)
> > JKS quick discos and everything else in the front end is stock.
> > I had a bad trac bar in the front for about 5k miles
> > and when I got it alligned I experienced major death wobble so I
> > bought the new trac bar.
> > Anyhow 3 weeks later I got another alignment because I was having
> > oversteer problems BAAAAAD and my alignment was off -.25
> > kinda wierd that it was off so quickly with no off roading or
> > upgrades except the trac bar.
> > Well I'm having the oversteer problem again. (whats oversteer you
> > ask) When I move the steering wheel 1 billionth of an inch the
> front
> > end moves 3 feet. I can hardly keep it in the lane when it's
bumpy
> > and if I hit a bump in the middle of a turn heaven help the guy
> next
> > to me on the inside. I have almost written Goodyear on many doors
> in
> > the last few weeks..
> >
> > Has anyone experienced this? What did you do to fix it? My Jeep
> only
> > has 35k Miles on it. I'm thinking that replacing the controll
arms
> > might help but I'm really not sure.
> > Thanks for any info you have,
> > Mike H.
> >
> > hiett710@y...

94279 From: Sandee McCullen <mccullen@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:12pm
Subject: RE: Re: WORK GROUPS REMINDER

The fencing will be along Meridian Rd in Apache Junction between Elliott and
Ray. Directions: Signal Butte south off Hwy 60 to Elliott. East on
Elliott to the deadend which is Meridian. Left takes you to the start.....
1/2 mile north. A right will take you south to Ray Rd. The fencing will
continue across open land south of Ray Rd to Skyline and then east to
Ironwood Rd.

My cell # is 480.688.8132......... should be able to reach me any day but
Saturday, Nov. 15.

Sandee

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matt OBrien [mailto:makaioo@y...]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 8:13 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: WORK GROUPS REMINDER
>
>
> Work precludes me from helping out during the week but Saturday
> might be possible. I'd planned on attending the 202 Loop ceremonies
> but can maybe help with setting posts also/instead. Maybe I can head
> over from the highway opening. Where exactly will the work be taking
> place or will folks be meeting? GPS coords are best, but an
> intersection or directions will work too (for we new-to-AZ folks
> still learning the area).
>
> I may be also available for the 11/22-23 weekend policing duties.
> Again, coords or more precise location info needed.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Matt
> K7MTO
>
> p.s. Sooner or later I may manage to make an actual trail run rather
> than BLM meetings, highway openings, work trips, Tech workshops,
> etc, but hey, I've only been in AZ for 3 weeks :)
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee McCullen" <mccullen@c...>
> wrote:
> > Also please mark your calendars for the weekend of the 22nd and
> > 23rd............... this will be to help law enforcement along
> Ironwood Rd
> > in apache Junction to direct the riders to the planned and
> designated riding
> > area. Those that fight it will be cited. Same place, same time.
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

94280 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:35pm
Subject: Re: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks

Fair enough.

:-)

Chris

On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 06:08 PM, Sandee McCullen wrote:

> OK........... my apologies in the use of "YOU". It was meant to be
> directed at anyone that is into a trail they don't belong..... or
> those that
> seem to believe PAVING is simply a way to allow them to go where they
> please! Yes, caps indicate yelling or very strong suggestion and that
> is
> exactly what I meant. I agree I was not there and I do appreciate the
> fact
> he did turn around, but he also slams the extreme wheeler and
> indicated he
> had as much right on those trails as anyone else. NO he does
> not.........
> not if it means the extreme wheeler has to lose any/all challenge they
> have
> because someone wants to "do what the big guys do". I'm so tired of
> this
> attitude and mentality. Just because someone builds a vehicle capable
> of
> doing almost anything does not make them "the big guy", or "GOD", or
> anyone
> any different than you, I or the first time 4-wheeler.
>
> There were comments comparing the "damage" the buggies or rock
> crawlers do
> ............ like leaving "semi-permanent marks" on the rocks. Or
> climbing
> "near vertical obstacles"........ sounds like like the green eye of
> jealousy to me. This is not damage........ paving or making
> by-passes IS
> damage and abuse and these actions are what will close ALL our trails.
> ......
>
> [As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the semi
>>>>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to climb near
>>>>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's right to
>>>>>> say where someone does or does not belong]
>
> This comes across to me as "I'll do as I please"........ "it's my
> right to
> stack rocks as long as the day is long", "I don't do any more damage
> than
> the "rock scratchers" yada yada yada!! YES, it is MY RIGHT if these
> kinds
> of actions lose the only challenge I have within my sport! YES, I AM
> YELLING Chris............... there are way too many recreationists out
> there that simply do NOT get the picture. Too many ATV's tear across
> country, the 4-wheelers enter trails they are not capable of doing,
> many
> motorcycles go way to fast............... and we can't seem to
> understand
> "WHY" we're losing everything. The agencies simply do not want to
> deal with
> the headaches of the recreationists not being responsible. .....
> Before
> you go off again, I'm not saying or claiming this Steve was "not"
> responsible but his attitude is certainly in the grey area...
> There are LARGE groups of agency planners that feel the "graded gravel
> roads
> should be enough for us". There are also LARGE numbers of new
> personnel
> joining the land management agencies and believe me............., for
> the
> most part, they are GREEN!!! Everyone seems to be into "saving"
> something.
> Our battles will not be getting easier and abuse such as rock paving
> and
> by-passes are the first issues to be held over us. We lost Jawbreaker
> because of "rock paving"........ had vehicles going through
> "DErocked" the
> obstacle after getting through the Tucson BLM wouldn't have had
> anything to
> present to the courts to show "abuse". Game & Fish are no better. If
> it's
> not wildlife habitat destruction, it's "messing up the watershed" of
> the
> area or rock stacking is showing to alter the flow because it tends to
> hold
> silt or gravel instead of allowing it to wash down stream etc etc
> etc............. there's desert tortoise, or a lizard, or beetle or a
> WEED.
> They'll use anything they can to shut out OHV recreation......... WHY
> do we
> insist on hurting ourselves!!!?
>
> I am rambling and will continue to do so until ALL of my fellow
> 4-wheelers
> finally understand that we each have our own level of wheeling and to
> mess
> us someone elses challenge just to prove a point, will shut us all
> down.
>
> Sandee
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 5:40 PM
>> To: Sandee McCullen
>> Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
>>
>>
>> I quote you:
>>
>> "If you cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks to
>> enable you to get through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T
>> BELONG THERE!!"
>>
>> The use of "you" and the caps (internet yelling) make it look like it
>> was directed to him. Sorry if I misinterpreted this.
>>
>> Your points are all correct, but it is incorrect to use them against
>> Steve in this case, since we were not there and have no idea in what
>> condition he left the trail.
>>
>> If we are going to preach, we should do it in a general manner. It is
>> unfair to use someone else's post about a run to further our ideas,
>> even if they are good ideas. To some, it will seem like we are bashing
>> the post.
>>
>> I read Steve's post and thought it was very responsible that they did
>> what they did. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that they unstacked
>> the rock. Remember, innocent until proven guilty works in may ways
>> besides in a court of law, especially with friends and fellow
>> wheelers.
>> It was pointed out to me in an email from another member that his
>> email
>> also indicated that they might stack rocks if they go back. Again, I
>> give him the benefit of the doubt that they will unstack them as well.
>> If they do not, then I will lose and my trust of him will be lost.
>>
>> Remember (and this is my final point since I don't want this to grow
>> in
>> to more than it has), if we were to never wheel on trails that there
>> is
>> the potential that we will have to stack rocks, most of us would never
>> leave the graded dirt road. That would be a shame.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 03:45 PM, Sandee McCullen wrote:
>>
>>> Chris, I don't think anyone "jumped down anyones throat".........
>>> simply
>>> stated "rock paving" is ruining our extreme trails and is hurting us
>>> all.
>>>
>>> I have NO PROBLEM with turning around when finding a trail is too
>>> tough but
>>> you and I both KNOW that there are waaaaaay too many vehicles going
>>> into
>>> trails they KNOW they are not equipped to do without rocking or
>>> making
>>> by-passes! I hear over and over again....... "no problem, we'll 'pull
>>> you
>>> through'". WHY???? Isn't actually "driving to the individual
>>> challenge"
>>> what we're suppose to be about?
>>>
>>> I didn't pretend to "be there" and I didn't accuse anyone of
>>> "semi-permanent" damage. Nor did I accuse the rock crawlers of being
>>> "GODS". My message was to EVERYONE that are doing trails above their
>>> ability, rock paving or making by-passes to get through to stay
>>> within
>>> their
>>> own challenge limitations. These actions WILL affect ALL of us in
>>> the
>>> near
>>> future and it won't be what anyone wants to hear. This kind of abuse
>>> is
>>> closing trails across the country. The agencies are having a tough
>>> enough
>>> time understanding the "challenge" of extreme 4-wheeling, but when
>>> all
>>> they
>>> see is the rock paving, by-passes, oil spills, and vegetation winched
>>> out of
>>> the ground they simply declare "abuse and resource damage" and close
>>> everything. It's going to take ALL of us to truly show RESPONSIBLE
>>> use of
>>> our recreation trails system................
>>>
>>> The responses from Todd and myself simply stated "to stay on trails
>>> within
>>> individual vehicle and/or driver capabilities"............. or
>>> "UNSTACK if
>>> the need for rocks is called for".
>>>
>>> Sandee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 3:28 PM
>>>> To: Sandee McCullen
>>>> Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sandy and Todd, um, did either of you read his run description?
>>>> They turned around after deciding they were beyond their
>>>> capabilities.
>>>> The rock stacking was done to get back out. No lectures should be
>>>> given
>>>> because they had no idea what the trail ahead was like.
>>>> In my opinion, they did the sensible thing. They gave it a try
>>>> (aren't
>>>> we all allowed to do this, it being public land and all?) and called
>>>> it
>>>> quits when it became apparent that it was beyond their capabilities.
>>>> So
>>>> a few rocks were stacked to get them back out. At least they didn't
>>>> just continue on and stack the entire trail as others probably would
>>>> have. Besides, he never said he didn't unstack them.
>>>>
>>>> Everyone, please don't be so quick to jump down the other guys/girls
>>>> throat, ESPECIALLY if you weren't there or do not know all the
>>>> facts.
>>>> When you make assumptions without facts, you just make yourself look
>>>> bad and create ill will in the group. We have enough bickering here
>>>> lately. Lets work to save our trails, not bicker about who can play
>>>> where.
>>>>
>>>> Just my $.02
>>>>
>>>> Chris
>>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 02:57 PM, Sandee McCullen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing trails via ROCK
>>>>> PAVING
>>>>> needs to stop.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line is simply:
>>>>> If
>>>>> you
>>>>> cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks to enable
>>>>> you
>>>>> to get
>>>>> through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T BELONG THERE!!
>>>>> The
>>>>> "semi
>>>>> permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do with "ruining a
>>>>> good
>>>>> trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of paving is what is
>>>>> "ruining
>>>>> the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now and then to
>>>>> "help"
>>>>> is
>>>>> done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy would have you
>>>>> REMOVE
>>>>> the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of the obstacle.
>>>>> There
>>>>> are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge" for every level
>>>>> of
>>>>> 4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the extreme
>>>>> driver/vehicle
>>>>> is
>>>>> what is causing the problems and is what is in discussion from your
>>>>> message.
>>>>> This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's ALL of
>>>>> us.........
>>>>> respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for all.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock crawling with
>>>>> no,
>>>>> or
>>>>> very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS! All they're
>>>>> asking is
>>>>> the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do whatever they
>>>>> wish
>>>>> STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
>>>>>
>>>>> We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are not happy
>>>>> about
>>>>> "rock
>>>>> paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the watershed or
>>>>> natural
>>>>> layout
>>>>> of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother Nature does a good
>>>>> job
>>>>> of
>>>>> keeping trails natural but some of the stacking/paving happening
>>>>> today
>>>>> is
>>>>> well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
>>>>> [FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom
>>>>> of
>>>>> a
>>>>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
>>>>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."]
>>>>>> This
>>>>>> may
>>>>> not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good trail" but it
>>>>> is
>>>>> if
>>>>> YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother Nature may
>>>>> make a
>>>>> trail easier or harder but that should be left to nature NOT YOU or
>>>>> other
>>>>> want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have been wheel'n
>>>>> Arizona and
>>>>> California since BEFORE the early 70's. For whatever that's
>>>>> worth??????
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, if you cannot traverse a trail or obstacle with your
>>>>> vehicle,
>>>>> winch,
>>>>> tires and/or ability and have to rock PAVE....... You don't belong
>>>>> there.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sandee
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:27 PM
>>>>>> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it appears you
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
>>>>>> As it appears you coulden't read the first time from your throne:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a reasonable / responsible
>>>>>> driver) because I had determined that (at that time) I was not
>>>>>> properly equiped and did not have the resources if I were to get
>>>>>> into
>>>>>> trouble.
>>>>>> 2) I did recommend / advise against attempting without lots of
>>>>>> clearance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
>>>>>> "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
>>>>>> As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the semi
>>>>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to climb near
>>>>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's right to
>>>>>> say where someone does or does not belong (I don't recall seeing
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> at the last BLM meeting either)
>>>>>> FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom
>>>>>> of a
>>>>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
>>>>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it, you do not
>>>>>> belong
>>>>>> on that trail."
>>>>>> I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted (which I'm sure you
>>>>>> always use before spinning all four gouging and spiting rock and
>>>>>> admitting lack of ability to move unassisted). Let's compare
>>>>>> possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash vs. tire scars
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng attended several
>>>>>> competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never stacked a rock or
>>>>>> two
>>>>>> for you, right?
>>>>>> By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling / hiking in this area
>>>>>> since the early 70's; you?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See you at the next BLM meeting
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
>>>>>>> This trail has been run by experienced drivers and rigs equipped
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>> do it,
>>>>>>> without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to stack rocks 20
>>>>>> yards into
>>>>>>> it, you do not belong on that trail.
>>>>>>> There are plenty of trails out there for everyones level.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Todd
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Earlier this year, after talking with many people and surveying
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>> the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
>>>>>>>> The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is really really
>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>> nasty. Because the other members of the group did not want to
>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>> further,
>>>>>>>> I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only the first 20-30
>>>>>> yards; it
>>>>>>>> took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of stacking+ body
>>>>>> damage to
>>>>>>>> get back out.
>>>>>>>> I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint hint) but
>>>>>>> required
>>>>>>>> equipment would be:
>>>>>>>> minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
>>>>>>>> Front and rear lockers
>>>>>>>> winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Call if interested
>>>>>>>> Steve Olney
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________________________________________________ _______________
>>>>>>> From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music is
>>>>>>> always
>>>>>> playing
>>>>>>> on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE!
>>>>>>> http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>>>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

94281 From: Linda <minihummer@w...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:39pm
Subject: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks

Sandee,

Do you have any pictures of the firehole on Upper Woodpecker when it
was concreted in? That's a good example of extreme rock stacking. I'll
bet most of the people in this newsgroup don't even know about that
incident.

Linda

94282 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:48pm
Subject: Re: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks

I remember that. Who did that?

Chris

On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 09:39 PM, Linda wrote:

> Sandee,
>
> Do you have any pictures of the firehole on Upper Woodpecker when it
> was concreted in? That's a good example of extreme rock stacking. I'll
> bet most of the people in this newsgroup don't even know about that
> incident.
>
> Linda
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

94283 From: TODD MCCULLEN <desertfab@m...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:58pm
Subject: Sandy beach

Chris & Steve,

First of all I did not jump down anyone's back, all I said lets not ruin a good rock crawling trail. I did read what steve said and he said he wanted to go back and did say something about having a strong back. And putting 35" tires is not going to make it easie