blooddrive
01-08-2004, 10:43 PM
94244-94268
94244 From: Linda <minihummer@w...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:52pm
Subject: Re: OT--Welding question
Actually you can weld any thickness metal you want with it -- it just
depends on the number of passes you have to make. What type of welder
do you have? flux core (FCAW), mig (GMAW), electroslag (ESAW),
submerged (SAW)? They are all wire-fed arc welders, though the last
two, ESAW and SAW are not commonly used by hobbyists, but you never
know!!
Anyway, here's a site that contains simple descriptions of the GMAW
and FCAW processes as well as one-pass limits for 110v and 220v
welders.
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/content/migvsfluxcor
ed.asp
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <khaw@n...> wrote:
> I got a cheapie little wire feed welder {80a} welder from a cousin.
I
> know it's not going to be big enough. But I figure it's something to
> learn with till I can afford a Miller135. I haven't had a welder in
my
> hand sense the early 70's. Anyway, what's the thickest I can weld
with
> this and expect it to hold? I'd like to build a welding cart/table,
> about 2'X4". What should I use, angle or tubing, and thickness?
> Thanks
> Keith
>
>
>
>
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94245 From: Sandee McCullen <mccullen@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:57pm
Subject: RE: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing trails via ROCK PAVING
needs to stop.
Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line is simply: If you
cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks to enable you to get
through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T BELONG THERE!! The "semi
permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do with "ruining a good
trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of paving is what is "ruining
the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now and then to "help" is
done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy would have you REMOVE
the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of the obstacle. There
are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge" for every level of
4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the extreme driver/vehicle is
what is causing the problems and is what is in discussion from your message.
This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's ALL of us.........
respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for all.
Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock crawling with no, or
very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS! All they're asking is
the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do whatever they wish
STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are not happy about "rock
paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the watershed or natural layout
of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother Nature does a good job of
keeping trails natural but some of the stacking/paving happening today is
well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
[FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of a
> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."] This may
not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good trail" but it is if
YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother Nature may make a
trail easier or harder but that should be left to nature NOT YOU or other
want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have been wheel'n Arizona and
California since BEFORE the early 70's. For whatever that's worth??????
Again, if you cannot traverse a trail or obstacle with your vehicle, winch,
tires and/or ability and have to rock PAVE....... You don't belong there.
Sandee
> -----Original Message-----
> From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:27 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
>
>
>
> Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it appears you would
> like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
> As it appears you coulden't read the first time from your throne:
>
> 1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a reasonable / responsible
> driver) because I had determined that (at that time) I was not
> properly equiped and did not have the resources if I were to get into
> trouble.
> 2) I did recommend / advise against attempting without lots of
> clearance.
>
> Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
> "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
> As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the semi
> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to climb near
> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's right to
> say where someone does or does not belong (I don't recall seeing you
> at the last BLM meeting either)
> FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of a
> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."
>
> "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it, you do not belong
> on that trail."
> I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted (which I'm sure you
> always use before spinning all four gouging and spiting rock and
> admitting lack of ability to move unassisted). Let's compare
> possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash vs. tire scars on
> vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng attended several
> competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never stacked a rock or two
> for you, right?
> By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling / hiking in this area
> since the early 70's; you?
>
> See you at the next BLM meeting
> Steve
>
> > Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
> > This trail has been run by experienced drivers and rigs equipped to
> do it,
> > without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to stack rocks 20
> yards into
> > it, you do not belong on that trail.
> > There are plenty of trails out there for everyones level.
> >
> > Todd
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
> > >
> > >Earlier this year, after talking with many people and surveying
> > from
> > >the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
> > >The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is really really
> > really
> > >nasty. Because the other members of the group did not want to go
> further,
> > >I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only the first 20-30
> yards; it
> > >took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of stacking+ body
> damage to
> > >get back out.
> > >I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint hint) but
> > required
> > >equipment would be:
> > >minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
> > >Front and rear lockers
> > >winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
> > >
> > >Call if interested
> > >Steve Olney
> >
> > __________________________________________________ _______________
> > From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music is always
> playing
> > on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE!
> > http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
94246 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:27pm
Subject: Re: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Sandy and Todd, um, did either of you read his run description?
They turned around after deciding they were beyond their capabilities.
The rock stacking was done to get back out. No lectures should be given
because they had no idea what the trail ahead was like.
In my opinion, they did the sensible thing. They gave it a try (aren't
we all allowed to do this, it being public land and all?) and called it
quits when it became apparent that it was beyond their capabilities. So
a few rocks were stacked to get them back out. At least they didn't
just continue on and stack the entire trail as others probably would
have. Besides, he never said he didn't unstack them.
Everyone, please don't be so quick to jump down the other guys/girls
throat, ESPECIALLY if you weren't there or do not know all the facts.
When you make assumptions without facts, you just make yourself look
bad and create ill will in the group. We have enough bickering here
lately. Lets work to save our trails, not bicker about who can play
where.
Just my $.02
Chris
On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 02:57 PM, Sandee McCullen wrote:
>
> Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing trails via ROCK
> PAVING
> needs to stop.
>
> Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line is simply: If
> you
> cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks to enable you
> to get
> through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T BELONG THERE!! The
> "semi
> permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do with "ruining a good
> trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of paving is what is
> "ruining
> the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now and then to "help"
> is
> done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy would have you
> REMOVE
> the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of the obstacle.
> There
> are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge" for every level of
> 4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the extreme driver/vehicle
> is
> what is causing the problems and is what is in discussion from your
> message.
> This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's ALL of us.........
> respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for all.
>
> Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock crawling with no,
> or
> very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS! All they're
> asking is
> the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do whatever they
> wish
> STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
>
> We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are not happy about
> "rock
> paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the watershed or natural
> layout
> of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother Nature does a good job
> of
> keeping trails natural but some of the stacking/paving happening today
> is
> well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
> [FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of a
>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."] This
>> may
> not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good trail" but it is
> if
> YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother Nature may make a
> trail easier or harder but that should be left to nature NOT YOU or
> other
> want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have been wheel'n
> Arizona and
> California since BEFORE the early 70's. For whatever that's
> worth??????
>
>
> Again, if you cannot traverse a trail or obstacle with your vehicle,
> winch,
> tires and/or ability and have to rock PAVE....... You don't belong
> there.
>
> Sandee
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:27 PM
>> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
>>
>>
>>
>> Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it appears you would
>> like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
>> As it appears you coulden't read the first time from your throne:
>>
>> 1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a reasonable / responsible
>> driver) because I had determined that (at that time) I was not
>> properly equiped and did not have the resources if I were to get into
>> trouble.
>> 2) I did recommend / advise against attempting without lots of
>> clearance.
>>
>> Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
>> "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
>> As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the semi
>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to climb near
>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's right to
>> say where someone does or does not belong (I don't recall seeing you
>> at the last BLM meeting either)
>> FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of a
>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."
>>
>> "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it, you do not belong
>> on that trail."
>> I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted (which I'm sure you
>> always use before spinning all four gouging and spiting rock and
>> admitting lack of ability to move unassisted). Let's compare
>> possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash vs. tire scars on
>> vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng attended several
>> competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never stacked a rock or two
>> for you, right?
>> By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling / hiking in this area
>> since the early 70's; you?
>>
>> See you at the next BLM meeting
>> Steve
>>
>>> Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
>>> This trail has been run by experienced drivers and rigs equipped to
>> do it,
>>> without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to stack rocks 20
>> yards into
>>> it, you do not belong on that trail.
>>> There are plenty of trails out there for everyones level.
>>>
>>> Todd
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
>>>>
>>>> Earlier this year, after talking with many people and surveying
>>> from
>>>> the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
>>>> The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is really really
>>> really
>>>> nasty. Because the other members of the group did not want to go
>> further,
>>>> I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only the first 20-30
>> yards; it
>>>> took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of stacking+ body
>> damage to
>>>> get back out.
>>>> I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint hint) but
>>> required
>>>> equipment would be:
>>>> minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
>>>> Front and rear lockers
>>>> winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
>>>>
>>>> Call if interested
>>>> Steve Olney
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________ _______________
>>> From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music is always
>> playing
>>> on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE!
>>> http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
94247 From: Sharky <sharxjeep@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:29pm
Subject: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Very well said Sandee...
Sharky
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee McCullen" <mccullen@c...>
wrote:
>
> Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing trails via ROCK
PAVING
> needs to stop.
>
> Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line is simply:
If you
> cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks to enable
you to get
> through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T BELONG THERE!!
The "semi
> permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do with "ruining a
good
> trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of paving is what
is "ruining
> the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now and then
to "help" is
> done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy would have you
REMOVE
> the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of the
obstacle. There
> are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge" for every level
of
> 4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the extreme
driver/vehicle is
> what is causing the problems and is what is in discussion from your
message.
> This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's ALL of
us.........
> respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for all.
>
> Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock crawling with
no, or
> very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS! All they're
asking is
> the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do whatever they
wish
> STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
>
> We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are not happy
about "rock
> paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the watershed or
natural layout
> of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother Nature does a good
job of
> keeping trails natural but some of the stacking/paving happening
today is
> well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
> [FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom
of a
> > wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
> > minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."]
This may
> not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good trail" but it
is if
> YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother Nature may
make a
> trail easier or harder but that should be left to nature NOT YOU or
other
> want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have been wheel'n
Arizona and
> California since BEFORE the early 70's. For whatever that's
worth??????
>
>
> Again, if you cannot traverse a trail or obstacle with your
vehicle, winch,
> tires and/or ability and have to rock PAVE....... You don't belong
there.
>
> Sandee
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:27 PM
> > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> >
> >
> >
> > Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it appears you
would
> > like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
> > As it appears you coulden't read the first time from your throne:
> >
> > 1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a reasonable / responsible
> > driver) because I had determined that (at that time) I was not
> > properly equiped and did not have the resources if I were to get
into
> > trouble.
> > 2) I did recommend / advise against attempting without lots of
> > clearance.
> >
> > Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
> > "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
> > As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the semi
> > perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to climb near
> > vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's right to
> > say where someone does or does not belong (I don't recall seeing
you
> > at the last BLM meeting either)
> > FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom
of a
> > wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
> > minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."
> >
> > "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it, you do not
belong
> > on that trail."
> > I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted (which I'm sure you
> > always use before spinning all four gouging and spiting rock and
> > admitting lack of ability to move unassisted). Let's compare
> > possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash vs. tire scars
on
> > vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng attended several
> > competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never stacked a rock or
two
> > for you, right?
> > By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling / hiking in this area
> > since the early 70's; you?
> >
> > See you at the next BLM meeting
> > Steve
> >
> > > Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
> > > This trail has been run by experienced drivers and rigs
equipped to
> > do it,
> > > without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to stack rocks 20
> > yards into
> > > it, you do not belong on that trail.
> > > There are plenty of trails out there for everyones level.
> > >
> > > Todd
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
> > > >
> > > >Earlier this year, after talking with many people and surveying
> > > from
> > > >the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
> > > >The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is really really
> > > really
> > > >nasty. Because the other members of the group did not want to
go
> > further,
> > > >I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only the first 20-
30
> > yards; it
> > > >took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of stacking+ body
> > damage to
> > > >get back out.
> > > >I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint hint) but
> > > required
> > > >equipment would be:
> > > >minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
> > > >Front and rear lockers
> > > >winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
> > > >
> > > >Call if interested
> > > >Steve Olney
> > >
> > >
__________________________________________________ _______________
> > > From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music is
always
> > playing
> > > on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE!
> > > http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
94248 From: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:34pm
Subject: New file uploaded to az_vjc
Hello,
This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the az_vjc
group.
File : /Click here for a great dating service
Uploaded by : bilozobusi0442 <bilozobusi0442@y...>
Description : Browse through singles
You can access this file at the URL
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To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
Regards,
bilozobusi0442 <bilozobusi0442@y...>
94249 From: Keith <khaw@n...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:40pm
Subject: RE: OT--Welding question
Thanks for the advice.. I'd love to get a 175 but aren't they 220v
units? Anyway it will probably be awhile before I can get one. The
little flux core is going to have to do for now.
Keith
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94250 From: Sandee McCullen <mccullen@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:45pm
Subject: RE: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Chris, I don't think anyone "jumped down anyones throat"......... simply
stated "rock paving" is ruining our extreme trails and is hurting us all.
I have NO PROBLEM with turning around when finding a trail is too tough but
you and I both KNOW that there are waaaaaay too many vehicles going into
trails they KNOW they are not equipped to do without rocking or making
by-passes! I hear over and over again....... "no problem, we'll 'pull you
through'". WHY???? Isn't actually "driving to the individual challenge"
what we're suppose to be about?
I didn't pretend to "be there" and I didn't accuse anyone of
"semi-permanent" damage. Nor did I accuse the rock crawlers of being
"GODS". My message was to EVERYONE that are doing trails above their
ability, rock paving or making by-passes to get through to stay within their
own challenge limitations. These actions WILL affect ALL of us in the near
future and it won't be what anyone wants to hear. This kind of abuse is
closing trails across the country. The agencies are having a tough enough
time understanding the "challenge" of extreme 4-wheeling, but when all they
see is the rock paving, by-passes, oil spills, and vegetation winched out of
the ground they simply declare "abuse and resource damage" and close
everything. It's going to take ALL of us to truly show RESPONSIBLE use of
our recreation trails system................
The responses from Todd and myself simply stated "to stay on trails within
individual vehicle and/or driver capabilities"............. or "UNSTACK if
the need for rocks is called for".
Sandee
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 3:28 PM
> To: Sandee McCullen
> Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
>
>
> Sandy and Todd, um, did either of you read his run description?
> They turned around after deciding they were beyond their capabilities.
> The rock stacking was done to get back out. No lectures should be given
> because they had no idea what the trail ahead was like.
> In my opinion, they did the sensible thing. They gave it a try (aren't
> we all allowed to do this, it being public land and all?) and called it
> quits when it became apparent that it was beyond their capabilities. So
> a few rocks were stacked to get them back out. At least they didn't
> just continue on and stack the entire trail as others probably would
> have. Besides, he never said he didn't unstack them.
>
> Everyone, please don't be so quick to jump down the other guys/girls
> throat, ESPECIALLY if you weren't there or do not know all the facts.
> When you make assumptions without facts, you just make yourself look
> bad and create ill will in the group. We have enough bickering here
> lately. Lets work to save our trails, not bicker about who can play
> where.
>
> Just my $.02
>
> Chris
>
> On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 02:57 PM, Sandee McCullen wrote:
>
> >
> > Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing trails via ROCK
> > PAVING
> > needs to stop.
> >
> > Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line is simply: If
> > you
> > cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks to enable you
> > to get
> > through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T BELONG THERE!! The
> > "semi
> > permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do with "ruining a good
> > trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of paving is what is
> > "ruining
> > the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now and then to "help"
> > is
> > done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy would have you
> > REMOVE
> > the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of the obstacle.
> > There
> > are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge" for every level of
> > 4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the extreme driver/vehicle
> > is
> > what is causing the problems and is what is in discussion from your
> > message.
> > This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's ALL of us.........
> > respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for all.
> >
> > Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock crawling with no,
> > or
> > very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS! All they're
> > asking is
> > the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do whatever they
> > wish
> > STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
> >
> > We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are not happy about
> > "rock
> > paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the watershed or natural
> > layout
> > of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother Nature does a good job
> > of
> > keeping trails natural but some of the stacking/paving happening today
> > is
> > well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
> > [FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of a
> >> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
> >> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."] This
> >> may
> > not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good trail" but it is
> > if
> > YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother Nature may make a
> > trail easier or harder but that should be left to nature NOT YOU or
> > other
> > want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have been wheel'n
> > Arizona and
> > California since BEFORE the early 70's. For whatever that's
> > worth??????
> >
> >
> > Again, if you cannot traverse a trail or obstacle with your vehicle,
> > winch,
> > tires and/or ability and have to rock PAVE....... You don't belong
> > there.
> >
> > Sandee
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:27 PM
> >> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it appears you would
> >> like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
> >> As it appears you coulden't read the first time from your throne:
> >>
> >> 1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a reasonable / responsible
> >> driver) because I had determined that (at that time) I was not
> >> properly equiped and did not have the resources if I were to get into
> >> trouble.
> >> 2) I did recommend / advise against attempting without lots of
> >> clearance.
> >>
> >> Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
> >> "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
> >> As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the semi
> >> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to climb near
> >> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's right to
> >> say where someone does or does not belong (I don't recall seeing you
> >> at the last BLM meeting either)
> >> FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of a
> >> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
> >> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."
> >>
> >> "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it, you do not belong
> >> on that trail."
> >> I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted (which I'm sure you
> >> always use before spinning all four gouging and spiting rock and
> >> admitting lack of ability to move unassisted). Let's compare
> >> possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash vs. tire scars on
> >> vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng attended several
> >> competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never stacked a rock or two
> >> for you, right?
> >> By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling / hiking in this area
> >> since the early 70's; you?
> >>
> >> See you at the next BLM meeting
> >> Steve
> >>
> >>> Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
> >>> This trail has been run by experienced drivers and rigs equipped to
> >> do it,
> >>> without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to stack rocks 20
> >> yards into
> >>> it, you do not belong on that trail.
> >>> There are plenty of trails out there for everyones level.
> >>>
> >>> Todd
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
> >>>>
> >>>> Earlier this year, after talking with many people and surveying
> >>> from
> >>>> the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
> >>>> The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is really really
> >>> really
> >>>> nasty. Because the other members of the group did not want to go
> >> further,
> >>>> I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only the first 20-30
> >> yards; it
> >>>> took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of stacking+ body
> >> damage to
> >>>> get back out.
> >>>> I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint hint) but
> >>> required
> >>>> equipment would be:
> >>>> minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
> >>>> Front and rear lockers
> >>>> winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
> >>>>
> >>>> Call if interested
> >>>> Steve Olney
> >>>
> >>> __________________________________________________ _______________
> >>> From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music is always
> >> playing
> >>> on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE!
> >>> http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
94251 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:01pm
Subject: Needed YJ uppers Thanks
Hey I need a pair of black YJ uppers too (for the doors. Skins will
work). :D Can someone help me out?
-----Original Message-----
From: dbkcs [mailto:dbkcs@y...]
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 7:48 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] YJ uppers Thanks
Just wanted to say thanks to all that responded for the uppers. I
got a call shortly after placing it and went and picked them up.
Thanks Steve the girls were much warmer today. :) Steve
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
94252 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:03pm
Subject: RE: Crown King Trip
NOPE not me I think you are thinking of Scott Maiden's green YJ. He has
been know to push his Jeep past the edge a couple of times. :p
Joey K
93YJ still upright.
-----Original Message-----
From: Hackle [mailto:hackle@q...]
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 6:59 PM
To: laredo0249; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Crown King Trip
If it was a White YJ it is probably Joey K again. He will be
back in a
couple days looking for his Jeep. BTW be careful as when he goes on
these
"trips" he feels it is clothing optional:) Jim F.
Arizona RockRats President
http://www.rockrats.org/
"I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member" Groucho
Marx
Member of the original dirty half dozen.
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/
-----Original Message-----
From: laredo0249 [mailto:Dslywalker1@a...]
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 6:54 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Crown King Trip
Just curious there was a red Jeep yesterday 11/9/03 that run off the
road out of Crown King about 5 in the afternoon.I don't know if it
supported a Club Sticker but our Fire Dept. responded to it.There was
supposed to be 2 people out of there Jeep walking around.By the time
we got to the incident there was no one there but the Jeep.Any incite
on this issue?
Thanx Mike
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
94253 From: Jeff Raben <jraben@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:08pm
Subject: YJ Gear box needed
I have a STOCK 89 Wrangler/4 cyl with Power Steering; the steering is very
loose, I think the gear box is bad; when stopped there is alot of play in
it. Anyone know where they rebuid them or where I can get a new one?
Thanks!!
Jeff
www.jeffraben.com
PS- if you are looking to buy a jeep check out the ones we have for sale,
www.royalaz.com
94254 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:30pm
Subject: [Tech] CJ Windshield leakage - CJ windshield leakage
I recently got a CJ8 and noticed when it rained the other day that there was some water in the new aluminum valve cover I had sitting on the floor. There was still a little water on the bottom of the windshield frame on both sides. How difficult is it to change out windshield rubber? I also noticed some bubbled paint in the middle of the frame. I want to take care of that when I have the windshield out. Is there any specific fix for this or just new rubber and some black window calking.
Ray Dyer
94255 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:38pm
Subject: [Tech] 84 scrambler - to lift or not to lift
Just got this scrambler and the springs look flat. I want to put on some bigger tires possibly 31- 33inch range This will be a daily driver and fourwheel/hunting vehicle, not rock crawler. I am looking for an improved ride and don't want any rubbing. Any recommendations?
Ray Dyer
94256 From: Scott Maiden <bermboy@h...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:56pm
Subject: Re: Crown King Trip
What? who told you that? Lies I say... lies...
I work at costco, its all from shopping carts...
lol
Scott
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "DesertJeep" <joey@d...> wrote:
> NOPE not me I think you are thinking of Scott Maiden's green YJ. He
has
> been know to push his Jeep past the edge a couple of times. :p
>
> Joey K
> 93YJ still upright.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hackle [mailto:hackle@q...]
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 6:59 PM
> To: laredo0249; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Crown King Trip
>
> If it was a White YJ it is probably Joey K again. He will be
> back in a
> couple days looking for his Jeep. BTW be careful as when he goes on
> these
> "trips" he feels it is clothing optional:) Jim F.
>
> Arizona RockRats President
> http://www.rockrats.org/
> "I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member"
Groucho
> Marx
> Member of the original dirty half dozen.
> http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: laredo0249 [mailto:Dslywalker1@a...]
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 6:54 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Crown King Trip
>
>
> Just curious there was a red Jeep yesterday 11/9/03 that run off the
> road out of Crown King about 5 in the afternoon.I don't know if it
> supported a Club Sticker but our Fire Dept. responded to it.There
was
> supposed to be 2 people out of there Jeep walking around.By the time
> we got to the incident there was no one there but the Jeep.Any
incite
> on this issue?
> Thanx Mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
94257 From: Sandee McCullen <mccullen@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:58pm
Subject: WORK GROUPS REMINDER
Hi all.......
Just sending a reminder to those of you that volunteered to help out with
the Desert Wells riding area in the east valley.....
ASLD, Game & Fish, Pinal County, and US will be working at digging holes and
placing posts in starting tomorrow through Saturday. IF we should have
enough help........ or families....... wives, kids etc........ we can
handle a crew to work at finishing the trail numbers on signs.
Starting tomorrow I will be at the Jack in the Box at M.P. 201 in Gold
Canyon at 7:45 a.m. We will pull out at 8:00 a.m. to designated work area.
Saturday Jeff Gursh from the Az Trail Riders will be there as the 4-wheelers
have an ASA4WDC meeting in Chandler.
Also please mark your calendars for the weekend of the 22nd and
23rd............... this will be to help law enforcement along Ironwood Rd
in apache Junction to direct the riders to the planned and designated riding
area. Those that fight it will be cited. Same place, same time.
If we have enough we could finish the trail numbering and then this project
will be DONE!!!
THANKS to ALL that can spare a few hours to help out. PLEASE PASS THIS
INFORMATION ON TO YOUR LISTS..........
Sandee
94258 From: Steve G. <glock45x@n...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:21pm
Subject: Re: OT--Welding question
My Miller 135 (120V) is designed to weld upto 3/16 thick. But welding
that thick of metal the duty cycle is about 2 minutes out of 10
minutes, or 10%. So your 80A would probably do about half of that or
less. I would not expect much from a "off brand" welder.
Steve
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <khaw@n...> wrote:
> I got a cheapie little wire feed welder {80a} welder from a cousin. I
> know it's not going to be big enough. But I figure it's something to
> learn with till I can afford a Miller135. I haven't had a welder in my
> hand sense the early 70's. Anyway, what's the thickest I can weld with
> this and expect it to hold? I'd like to build a welding cart/table,
> about 2'X4". What should I use, angle or tubing, and thickness?
> Thanks
> Keith
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> FIGHT BACK AGAINST SPAM!
> Download Spam Inspector, the Award Winning Anti-Spam Filter
> http://mail.giantcompany.com
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
94259 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:21pm
Subject: RE: Re: Crown King Trip
And your Jeep ramps like a shopping cart too!!! ROTFLMAO!!!!
:o
Joey K
93YJ - that ramps worse then Scotts.
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Maiden [mailto:bermboy@h...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 4:56 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Crown King Trip
What? who told you that? Lies I say... lies...
I work at costco, its all from shopping carts...
lol
Scott
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "DesertJeep" <joey@d...> wrote:
> NOPE not me I think you are thinking of Scott Maiden's green YJ. He
has
> been know to push his Jeep past the edge a couple of times. :p
>
> Joey K
> 93YJ still upright.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hackle [mailto:hackle@q...]
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 6:59 PM
> To: laredo0249; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Crown King Trip
>
> If it was a White YJ it is probably Joey K again. He will be
> back in a
> couple days looking for his Jeep. BTW be careful as when he goes on
> these
> "trips" he feels it is clothing optional:) Jim F.
>
> Arizona RockRats President
> http://www.rockrats.org/
> "I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member"
Groucho
> Marx
> Member of the original dirty half dozen.
> http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: laredo0249 [mailto:Dslywalker1@a...]
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 6:54 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Crown King Trip
>
>
> Just curious there was a red Jeep yesterday 11/9/03 that run off the
> road out of Crown King about 5 in the afternoon.I don't know if it
> supported a Club Sticker but our Fire Dept. responded to it.There
was
> supposed to be 2 people out of there Jeep walking around.By the time
> we got to the incident there was no one there but the Jeep.Any
incite
> on this issue?
> Thanx Mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
94260 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:40pm
Subject: Re: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
I quote you:
"If you cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks to
enable you to get through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T
BELONG THERE!!"
The use of "you" and the caps (internet yelling) make it look like it
was directed to him. Sorry if I misinterpreted this.
Your points are all correct, but it is incorrect to use them against
Steve in this case, since we were not there and have no idea in what
condition he left the trail.
If we are going to preach, we should do it in a general manner. It is
unfair to use someone else's post about a run to further our ideas,
even if they are good ideas. To some, it will seem like we are bashing
the post.
I read Steve's post and thought it was very responsible that they did
what they did. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that they unstacked
the rock. Remember, innocent until proven guilty works in may ways
besides in a court of law, especially with friends and fellow wheelers.
It was pointed out to me in an email from another member that his email
also indicated that they might stack rocks if they go back. Again, I
give him the benefit of the doubt that they will unstack them as well.
If they do not, then I will lose and my trust of him will be lost.
Remember (and this is my final point since I don't want this to grow in
to more than it has), if we were to never wheel on trails that there is
the potential that we will have to stack rocks, most of us would never
leave the graded dirt road. That would be a shame.
Chris
On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 03:45 PM, Sandee McCullen wrote:
> Chris, I don't think anyone "jumped down anyones throat".........
> simply
> stated "rock paving" is ruining our extreme trails and is hurting us
> all.
>
> I have NO PROBLEM with turning around when finding a trail is too
> tough but
> you and I both KNOW that there are waaaaaay too many vehicles going
> into
> trails they KNOW they are not equipped to do without rocking or making
> by-passes! I hear over and over again....... "no problem, we'll 'pull
> you
> through'". WHY???? Isn't actually "driving to the individual
> challenge"
> what we're suppose to be about?
>
> I didn't pretend to "be there" and I didn't accuse anyone of
> "semi-permanent" damage. Nor did I accuse the rock crawlers of being
> "GODS". My message was to EVERYONE that are doing trails above their
> ability, rock paving or making by-passes to get through to stay within
> their
> own challenge limitations. These actions WILL affect ALL of us in the
> near
> future and it won't be what anyone wants to hear. This kind of abuse
> is
> closing trails across the country. The agencies are having a tough
> enough
> time understanding the "challenge" of extreme 4-wheeling, but when all
> they
> see is the rock paving, by-passes, oil spills, and vegetation winched
> out of
> the ground they simply declare "abuse and resource damage" and close
> everything. It's going to take ALL of us to truly show RESPONSIBLE
> use of
> our recreation trails system................
>
> The responses from Todd and myself simply stated "to stay on trails
> within
> individual vehicle and/or driver capabilities"............. or
> "UNSTACK if
> the need for rocks is called for".
>
> Sandee
>
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 3:28 PM
>> To: Sandee McCullen
>> Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
>>
>>
>> Sandy and Todd, um, did either of you read his run description?
>> They turned around after deciding they were beyond their capabilities.
>> The rock stacking was done to get back out. No lectures should be
>> given
>> because they had no idea what the trail ahead was like.
>> In my opinion, they did the sensible thing. They gave it a try (aren't
>> we all allowed to do this, it being public land and all?) and called
>> it
>> quits when it became apparent that it was beyond their capabilities.
>> So
>> a few rocks were stacked to get them back out. At least they didn't
>> just continue on and stack the entire trail as others probably would
>> have. Besides, he never said he didn't unstack them.
>>
>> Everyone, please don't be so quick to jump down the other guys/girls
>> throat, ESPECIALLY if you weren't there or do not know all the facts.
>> When you make assumptions without facts, you just make yourself look
>> bad and create ill will in the group. We have enough bickering here
>> lately. Lets work to save our trails, not bicker about who can play
>> where.
>>
>> Just my $.02
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 02:57 PM, Sandee McCullen wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing trails via ROCK
>>> PAVING
>>> needs to stop.
>>>
>>> Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line is simply: If
>>> you
>>> cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks to enable you
>>> to get
>>> through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T BELONG THERE!! The
>>> "semi
>>> permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do with "ruining a good
>>> trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of paving is what is
>>> "ruining
>>> the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now and then to
>>> "help"
>>> is
>>> done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy would have you
>>> REMOVE
>>> the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of the obstacle.
>>> There
>>> are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge" for every level of
>>> 4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the extreme driver/vehicle
>>> is
>>> what is causing the problems and is what is in discussion from your
>>> message.
>>> This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's ALL of us.........
>>> respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for all.
>>>
>>> Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock crawling with
>>> no,
>>> or
>>> very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS! All they're
>>> asking is
>>> the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do whatever they
>>> wish
>>> STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
>>>
>>> We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are not happy about
>>> "rock
>>> paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the watershed or natural
>>> layout
>>> of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother Nature does a good
>>> job
>>> of
>>> keeping trails natural but some of the stacking/paving happening
>>> today
>>> is
>>> well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
>>> [FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of
>>> a
>>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
>>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."] This
>>>> may
>>> not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good trail" but it
>>> is
>>> if
>>> YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother Nature may
>>> make a
>>> trail easier or harder but that should be left to nature NOT YOU or
>>> other
>>> want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have been wheel'n
>>> Arizona and
>>> California since BEFORE the early 70's. For whatever that's
>>> worth??????
>>>
>>>
>>> Again, if you cannot traverse a trail or obstacle with your vehicle,
>>> winch,
>>> tires and/or ability and have to rock PAVE....... You don't belong
>>> there.
>>>
>>> Sandee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:27 PM
>>>> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it appears you would
>>>> like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
>>>> As it appears you coulden't read the first time from your throne:
>>>>
>>>> 1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a reasonable / responsible
>>>> driver) because I had determined that (at that time) I was not
>>>> properly equiped and did not have the resources if I were to get
>>>> into
>>>> trouble.
>>>> 2) I did recommend / advise against attempting without lots of
>>>> clearance.
>>>>
>>>> Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
>>>> "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
>>>> As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the semi
>>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to climb near
>>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's right to
>>>> say where someone does or does not belong (I don't recall seeing you
>>>> at the last BLM meeting either)
>>>> FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of a
>>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
>>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."
>>>>
>>>> "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it, you do not belong
>>>> on that trail."
>>>> I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted (which I'm sure you
>>>> always use before spinning all four gouging and spiting rock and
>>>> admitting lack of ability to move unassisted). Let's compare
>>>> possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash vs. tire scars on
>>>> vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng attended several
>>>> competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never stacked a rock or two
>>>> for you, right?
>>>> By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling / hiking in this area
>>>> since the early 70's; you?
>>>>
>>>> See you at the next BLM meeting
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>>> Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
>>>>> This trail has been run by experienced drivers and rigs equipped to
>>>> do it,
>>>>> without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to stack rocks 20
>>>> yards into
>>>>> it, you do not belong on that trail.
>>>>> There are plenty of trails out there for everyones level.
>>>>>
>>>>> Todd
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Earlier this year, after talking with many people and surveying
>>>>> from
>>>>>> the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
>>>>>> The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is really really
>>>>> really
>>>>>> nasty. Because the other members of the group did not want to go
>>>> further,
>>>>>> I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only the first 20-30
>>>> yards; it
>>>>>> took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of stacking+ body
>>>> damage to
>>>>>> get back out.
>>>>>> I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint hint) but
>>>>> required
>>>>>> equipment would be:
>>>>>> minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
>>>>>> Front and rear lockers
>>>>>> winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Call if interested
>>>>>> Steve Olney
>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________________________ _______________
>>>>> From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music is always
>>>> playing
>>>>> on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE!
>>>>> http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
94261 From: Steve G. <glock45x@n...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:52pm
Subject: Re: Ft. Huachuca trails?
Those "trails" you see are really fire breaks. As far as I know there
are no "trails" on the fort. During this time of war I dought that
they would appricate a non-military person driving around unescorted
on back roads.
Steve
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Russell" <desertjeep@c...> wrote:
> I was working down at Ft. Huachuca today and noticed what appears
to be a lot of trails going up into the mountains on the base. The
police at the entrance really couldn't give me much info other than a
lot of mountain bikers go up there. Anyone have any experience
running trails on the base?
>
> TIA,
> Jim
> Tucson
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
94262 From: Sandee McCullen <mccullen@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:08pm
Subject: RE: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
OK........... my apologies in the use of "YOU". It was meant to be
directed at anyone that is into a trail they don't belong..... or those that
seem to believe PAVING is simply a way to allow them to go where they
please! Yes, caps indicate yelling or very strong suggestion and that is
exactly what I meant. I agree I was not there and I do appreciate the fact
he did turn around, but he also slams the extreme wheeler and indicated he
had as much right on those trails as anyone else. NO he does not.........
not if it means the extreme wheeler has to lose any/all challenge they have
because someone wants to "do what the big guys do". I'm so tired of this
attitude and mentality. Just because someone builds a vehicle capable of
doing almost anything does not make them "the big guy", or "GOD", or anyone
any different than you, I or the first time 4-wheeler.
There were comments comparing the "damage" the buggies or rock crawlers do
............ like leaving "semi-permanent marks" on the rocks. Or climbing
"near vertical obstacles"........ sounds like like the green eye of
jealousy to me. This is not damage........ paving or making by-passes IS
damage and abuse and these actions are what will close ALL our trails.
......
[As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the semi
> >>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to climb near
> >>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's right to
> >>>> say where someone does or does not belong]
This comes across to me as "I'll do as I please"........ "it's my right to
stack rocks as long as the day is long", "I don't do any more damage than
the "rock scratchers" yada yada yada!! YES, it is MY RIGHT if these kinds
of actions lose the only challenge I have within my sport! YES, I AM
YELLING Chris............... there are way too many recreationists out
there that simply do NOT get the picture. Too many ATV's tear across
country, the 4-wheelers enter trails they are not capable of doing, many
motorcycles go way to fast............... and we can't seem to understand
"WHY" we're losing everything. The agencies simply do not want to deal with
the headaches of the recreationists not being responsible. ..... Before
you go off again, I'm not saying or claiming this Steve was "not"
responsible but his attitude is certainly in the grey area...
There are LARGE groups of agency planners that feel the "graded gravel roads
should be enough for us". There are also LARGE numbers of new personnel
joining the land management agencies and believe me............., for the
most part, they are GREEN!!! Everyone seems to be into "saving" something.
Our battles will not be getting easier and abuse such as rock paving and
by-passes are the first issues to be held over us. We lost Jawbreaker
because of "rock paving"........ had vehicles going through "DErocked" the
obstacle after getting through the Tucson BLM wouldn't have had anything to
present to the courts to show "abuse". Game & Fish are no better. If it's
not wildlife habitat destruction, it's "messing up the watershed" of the
area or rock stacking is showing to alter the flow because it tends to hold
silt or gravel instead of allowing it to wash down stream etc etc
etc............. there's desert tortoise, or a lizard, or beetle or a WEED.
They'll use anything they can to shut out OHV recreation......... WHY do we
insist on hurting ourselves!!!?
I am rambling and will continue to do so until ALL of my fellow 4-wheelers
finally understand that we each have our own level of wheeling and to mess
us someone elses challenge just to prove a point, will shut us all down.
Sandee
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 5:40 PM
> To: Sandee McCullen
> Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
>
>
> I quote you:
>
> "If you cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks to
> enable you to get through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T
> BELONG THERE!!"
>
> The use of "you" and the caps (internet yelling) make it look like it
> was directed to him. Sorry if I misinterpreted this.
>
> Your points are all correct, but it is incorrect to use them against
> Steve in this case, since we were not there and have no idea in what
> condition he left the trail.
>
> If we are going to preach, we should do it in a general manner. It is
> unfair to use someone else's post about a run to further our ideas,
> even if they are good ideas. To some, it will seem like we are bashing
> the post.
>
> I read Steve's post and thought it was very responsible that they did
> what they did. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that they unstacked
> the rock. Remember, innocent until proven guilty works in may ways
> besides in a court of law, especially with friends and fellow wheelers.
> It was pointed out to me in an email from another member that his email
> also indicated that they might stack rocks if they go back. Again, I
> give him the benefit of the doubt that they will unstack them as well.
> If they do not, then I will lose and my trust of him will be lost.
>
> Remember (and this is my final point since I don't want this to grow in
> to more than it has), if we were to never wheel on trails that there is
> the potential that we will have to stack rocks, most of us would never
> leave the graded dirt road. That would be a shame.
>
> Chris
>
> On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 03:45 PM, Sandee McCullen wrote:
>
> > Chris, I don't think anyone "jumped down anyones throat".........
> > simply
> > stated "rock paving" is ruining our extreme trails and is hurting us
> > all.
> >
> > I have NO PROBLEM with turning around when finding a trail is too
> > tough but
> > you and I both KNOW that there are waaaaaay too many vehicles going
> > into
> > trails they KNOW they are not equipped to do without rocking or making
> > by-passes! I hear over and over again....... "no problem, we'll 'pull
> > you
> > through'". WHY???? Isn't actually "driving to the individual
> > challenge"
> > what we're suppose to be about?
> >
> > I didn't pretend to "be there" and I didn't accuse anyone of
> > "semi-permanent" damage. Nor did I accuse the rock crawlers of being
> > "GODS". My message was to EVERYONE that are doing trails above their
> > ability, rock paving or making by-passes to get through to stay within
> > their
> > own challenge limitations. These actions WILL affect ALL of us in the
> > near
> > future and it won't be what anyone wants to hear. This kind of abuse
> > is
> > closing trails across the country. The agencies are having a tough
> > enough
> > time understanding the "challenge" of extreme 4-wheeling, but when all
> > they
> > see is the rock paving, by-passes, oil spills, and vegetation winched
> > out of
> > the ground they simply declare "abuse and resource damage" and close
> > everything. It's going to take ALL of us to truly show RESPONSIBLE
> > use of
> > our recreation trails system................
> >
> > The responses from Todd and myself simply stated "to stay on trails
> > within
> > individual vehicle and/or driver capabilities"............. or
> > "UNSTACK if
> > the need for rocks is called for".
> >
> > Sandee
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 3:28 PM
> >> To: Sandee McCullen
> >> Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> >>
> >>
> >> Sandy and Todd, um, did either of you read his run description?
> >> They turned around after deciding they were beyond their capabilities.
> >> The rock stacking was done to get back out. No lectures should be
> >> given
> >> because they had no idea what the trail ahead was like.
> >> In my opinion, they did the sensible thing. They gave it a try (aren't
> >> we all allowed to do this, it being public land and all?) and called
> >> it
> >> quits when it became apparent that it was beyond their capabilities.
> >> So
> >> a few rocks were stacked to get them back out. At least they didn't
> >> just continue on and stack the entire trail as others probably would
> >> have. Besides, he never said he didn't unstack them.
> >>
> >> Everyone, please don't be so quick to jump down the other guys/girls
> >> throat, ESPECIALLY if you weren't there or do not know all the facts.
> >> When you make assumptions without facts, you just make yourself look
> >> bad and create ill will in the group. We have enough bickering here
> >> lately. Lets work to save our trails, not bicker about who can play
> >> where.
> >>
> >> Just my $.02
> >>
> >> Chris
> >>
> >> On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 02:57 PM, Sandee McCullen wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing trails via ROCK
> >>> PAVING
> >>> needs to stop.
> >>>
> >>> Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line is simply: If
> >>> you
> >>> cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks to enable you
> >>> to get
> >>> through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T BELONG THERE!! The
> >>> "semi
> >>> permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do with "ruining a good
> >>> trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of paving is what is
> >>> "ruining
> >>> the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now and then to
> >>> "help"
> >>> is
> >>> done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy would have you
> >>> REMOVE
> >>> the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of the obstacle.
> >>> There
> >>> are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge" for every level of
> >>> 4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the extreme driver/vehicle
> >>> is
> >>> what is causing the problems and is what is in discussion from your
> >>> message.
> >>> This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's ALL of us.........
> >>> respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for all.
> >>>
> >>> Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock crawling with
> >>> no,
> >>> or
> >>> very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS! All they're
> >>> asking is
> >>> the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do whatever they
> >>> wish
> >>> STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
> >>>
> >>> We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are not happy about
> >>> "rock
> >>> paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the watershed or natural
> >>> layout
> >>> of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother Nature does a good
> >>> job
> >>> of
> >>> keeping trails natural but some of the stacking/paving happening
> >>> today
> >>> is
> >>> well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
> >>> [FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of
> >>> a
> >>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
> >>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."] This
> >>>> may
> >>> not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good trail" but it
> >>> is
> >>> if
> >>> YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother Nature may
> >>> make a
> >>> trail easier or harder but that should be left to nature NOT YOU or
> >>> other
> >>> want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have been wheel'n
> >>> Arizona and
> >>> California since BEFORE the early 70's. For whatever that's
> >>> worth??????
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Again, if you cannot traverse a trail or obstacle with your vehicle,
> >>> winch,
> >>> tires and/or ability and have to rock PAVE....... You don't belong
> >>> there.
> >>>
> >>> Sandee
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:27 PM
> >>>> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it appears you would
> >>>> like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
> >>>> As it appears you coulden't read the first time from your throne:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a reasonable / responsible
> >>>> driver) because I had determined that (at that time) I was not
> >>>> properly equiped and did not have the resources if I were to get
> >>>> into
> >>>> trouble.
> >>>> 2) I did recommend / advise against attempting without lots of
> >>>> clearance.
> >>>>
> >>>> Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
> >>>> "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
> >>>> As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the semi
> >>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to climb near
> >>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's right to
> >>>> say where someone does or does not belong (I don't recall seeing you
> >>>> at the last BLM meeting either)
> >>>> FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of a
> >>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
> >>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."
> >>>>
> >>>> "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it, you do not belong
> >>>> on that trail."
> >>>> I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted (which I'm sure you
> >>>> always use before spinning all four gouging and spiting rock and
> >>>> admitting lack of ability to move unassisted). Let's compare
> >>>> possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash vs. tire scars on
> >>>> vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng attended several
> >>>> competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never stacked a rock or two
> >>>> for you, right?
> >>>> By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling / hiking in this area
> >>>> since the early 70's; you?
> >>>>
> >>>> See you at the next BLM meeting
> >>>> Steve
> >>>>
> >>>>> Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
> >>>>> This trail has been run by experienced drivers and rigs equipped to
> >>>> do it,
> >>>>> without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to stack rocks 20
> >>>> yards into
> >>>>> it, you do not belong on that trail.
> >>>>> There are plenty of trails out there for everyones level.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Todd
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Earlier this year, after talking with many people and surveying
> >>>>> from
> >>>>>> the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
> >>>>>> The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is really really
> >>>>> really
> >>>>>> nasty. Because the other members of the group did not want to go
> >>>> further,
> >>>>>> I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only the first 20-30
> >>>> yards; it
> >>>>>> took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of stacking+ body
> >>>> damage to
> >>>>>> get back out.
> >>>>>> I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint hint) but
> >>>>> required
> >>>>>> equipment would be:
> >>>>>> minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
> >>>>>> Front and rear lockers
> >>>>>> winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Call if interested
> >>>>>> Steve Olney
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________________ _______________
> >>>>> From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music is always
> >>>> playing
> >>>>> on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE!
> >>>>> http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
94263 From: <Hydrosense@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 0:39pm
Subject: Re: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Sometimes I (very rarely) will stack a rock or two but only and only if I
have tried every line I can, and that's the only way to where I want to go..
BUT I MAKE SURE TO PUT ROCKS BACK!!!! so it doesn't spoil others that want the
challenge...So Just a lesson/reminder to you first timers. Its OK to stack
if you absolutely have to but please take the time once you got over or through
whatever obstacle, to PUT THEM BACK....Rob B Y2KXJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
94264 From: Joe <flexyxj98@m...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:56pm
Subject: Re: Thermostat opinions???
Ok, Joe is KINDA correct.....Yes, I would only run a 195
thermostat....WHY??? With JEEP computers being a "dumb" computer (
meaning is a speed density type system and not a mass airflow system,
The computer has a set of pre-determined points on a big "map".. It
can only ASSUME how much air is entering the engine, VS using a Mass
airflow meter to positivly meter the incoming air)The computer uses
the sending unit in the thermostat housing to sense temp at many
times. So in the morning, It will know that the coolant is cold, and
RICHEN the air/fuel mixture....all of the way up to 192 degrees, then
it will go into what is called "open loop", where it reads all of the
sensors to calculate the fuel mixture. IF the computer could NEVER
see 192 degrees, than it would continue to "have the choke" on and
richen the fuel mixture.... All of the time the O2 sensor cannot
tell the computer its running rich, Scince its in closed loop.
CONSEQUENCES....bad fuel milage, possible melted cat ( remember, the
more fuel a cat conv sees, the hotter it gets)....bottom line, use
the FACTORY MOPAR thermostat.....195 degrees..... Hope this helps...
FlexyXJ
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Joe West" <joe.west@s...> wrote:
> Comments Inline....
>
> The higher temperature thermostats open at a higher temperature,
> right? So, this means the coolant stays in the radiator longer and
> lets the heat dissipate more, I take it...
>
> Yes... the higher temperature thermostats open at a higher
temperature.
> No... it does not mean that the coolant stays in the radiator
longer. The duration that the coolant stays in the radiator is a
function of flow rate and not thermostat opening temperature.
>
>
> The lower temperature thermostats open at a lower temperature and
the
> coolant cycles through the engine more often, NOT giving it time to
> dissipate as much, causing the engine to run hotter, right?
>
> Yes... the lower temperature thermostats open at a lower
temperature.
> No... the opening temperature does not change the time the coolant
remains in the radiator (although one could argue that a lower
temperature causes the coolant passages to constrict, reducing
coolant flow... I promise... this would not be a noticeable effect).
>
>
> What temperature thermostat should I get for the 3 core radiator
> combo to get the most out of my cooling system? Keep in mind that I
> live in Havasu (the State's hotspot most of the time - 125 degrees
> isn't uncommon.)
>
> And the answer is.... THE FACTORY TEMPERATURE THERMOSTAT (195
degrees I think).
> Reason? Because the factory changes the air/fuel ratio to the
engine based on temperature... and a lower temperature thermostat
will likely cause your TJ to run richer than it should which, if it
is outside the normal control loop parameters defined in the lookup
tables in the ECU, could cause you problems.
>
> Stick with the factory temperature thermostat and you can't go
wrong.
>
> Joe West
>
>
> TIA,
>
> Dan (AKA BRUZR's Daddy)
> 97 TJ (BRUZR), Locked and Loaded in Lake Havasu City, AZ
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
94265 From: trmn8rjn98 <trmn8rjn98@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:56pm
Subject: [OT] Help cheap car needed
Hi my cousin was badly injured in an accident when his horse fell &
landed on him. As a result he has not been able to work & had to sell
his truck before it got repoed. He is just looking for something he
can get around in. Not worried about looks much & I can & will do
some work on it for him. We are just looking for something that he
can get around in in the $500 range. Please let me know if you have
anything
thanks
John
94266 From: Joe <flexyxj98@m...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:01pm
Subject: Re: Need help with a steering/front end problem.
Mike, I see this everyday....A tera 3T kit is the base kit that does
not come with lower arms......Problem......it WILL wander, due to not
having enough positive caster...I have never been able to get more
than 4.5-5.2 degrees of caster from a 3T kit, even with cams....You
need to have at LEAST 8.5-9.5 degrees caster for proper
driveability....and "Over-steer" is not what you think it is......it
is actually an action that happens when you steer into a corner in a
vehicle and the front end pushes.....BTW....what align shop did the
alignment???? Didnt they tell you that the specs are WAAAAAAAy out
of factory allowances?????
FlexyXJ
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Mike H." <hiett710@y...> wrote:
> I will start out with what I have.
> 02 TJ 4.0 3" tera springs, Stock controll arms.
> Adjustable trac bar from O.R.U. (same brand name as a shock)
> JKS quick discos and everything else in the front end is stock.
> I had a bad trac bar in the front for about 5k miles
> and when I got it alligned I experienced major death wobble so I
> bought the new trac bar.
> Anyhow 3 weeks later I got another alignment because I was having
> oversteer problems BAAAAAD and my alignment was off -.25
> kinda wierd that it was off so quickly with no off roading or
> upgrades except the trac bar.
> Well I'm having the oversteer problem again. (whats oversteer you
> ask) When I move the steering wheel 1 billionth of an inch the
front
> end moves 3 feet. I can hardly keep it in the lane when it's bumpy
> and if I hit a bump in the middle of a turn heaven help the guy
next
> to me on the inside. I have almost written Goodyear on many doors
in
> the last few weeks..
>
> Has anyone experienced this? What did you do to fix it? My Jeep
only
> has 35k Miles on it. I'm thinking that replacing the controll arms
> might help but I'm really not sure.
> Thanks for any info you have,
> Mike H.
>
> hiett710@y...
94267 From: Joe <flexyxj98@m...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:08pm
Subject: Re: [FS] Rims for sale
He just took those from my garbage can.....what a bum...
FlexyXJ
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Norman" <4x4xfun1@c...> wrote:
> I've got (4) factory Jeep wheels for sale that came off my 91
Cherokee
> Sport. They are a 7" rim with, I believe, 5.25" backspacing. They
are in
> great shape with little to no rockrash. Here is a link to a pic:
>
> http://www.rockrats.org/RR/Scripts/Thumb.asp?
W=640&F=175_03111017107.jpg
>
> $50 is my price
>
> I'm at 35av/Union Hills.
>
> Rick
> Got Groceries?
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
94268 From: Joe <flexyxj98@m...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:09pm
Subject: Re: Hummer Run...
LOL.....John you were scared with a 15,000 dollar vehicle....:)
FlexyXJ
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "John Rabenius" <jrabenius@c...> wrote:
> --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Dennis" <dannpegg@c...> wrote:
>
>
> I can't believe those pics...The looks
> > on the drivers' faces are so intense...Like they're actually
having
> > to concentrate on what they're doing!
>
> . . . Well, remember . . . they are driving a $60,000+ vehicle. I'd
> be scared too.
>
> John R
> 1999 TJ
94244 From: Linda <minihummer@w...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:52pm
Subject: Re: OT--Welding question
Actually you can weld any thickness metal you want with it -- it just
depends on the number of passes you have to make. What type of welder
do you have? flux core (FCAW), mig (GMAW), electroslag (ESAW),
submerged (SAW)? They are all wire-fed arc welders, though the last
two, ESAW and SAW are not commonly used by hobbyists, but you never
know!!
Anyway, here's a site that contains simple descriptions of the GMAW
and FCAW processes as well as one-pass limits for 110v and 220v
welders.
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/content/migvsfluxcor
ed.asp
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <khaw@n...> wrote:
> I got a cheapie little wire feed welder {80a} welder from a cousin.
I
> know it's not going to be big enough. But I figure it's something to
> learn with till I can afford a Miller135. I haven't had a welder in
my
> hand sense the early 70's. Anyway, what's the thickest I can weld
with
> this and expect it to hold? I'd like to build a welding cart/table,
> about 2'X4". What should I use, angle or tubing, and thickness?
> Thanks
> Keith
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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94245 From: Sandee McCullen <mccullen@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:57pm
Subject: RE: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing trails via ROCK PAVING
needs to stop.
Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line is simply: If you
cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks to enable you to get
through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T BELONG THERE!! The "semi
permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do with "ruining a good
trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of paving is what is "ruining
the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now and then to "help" is
done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy would have you REMOVE
the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of the obstacle. There
are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge" for every level of
4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the extreme driver/vehicle is
what is causing the problems and is what is in discussion from your message.
This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's ALL of us.........
respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for all.
Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock crawling with no, or
very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS! All they're asking is
the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do whatever they wish
STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are not happy about "rock
paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the watershed or natural layout
of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother Nature does a good job of
keeping trails natural but some of the stacking/paving happening today is
well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
[FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of a
> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."] This may
not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good trail" but it is if
YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother Nature may make a
trail easier or harder but that should be left to nature NOT YOU or other
want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have been wheel'n Arizona and
California since BEFORE the early 70's. For whatever that's worth??????
Again, if you cannot traverse a trail or obstacle with your vehicle, winch,
tires and/or ability and have to rock PAVE....... You don't belong there.
Sandee
> -----Original Message-----
> From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:27 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
>
>
>
> Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it appears you would
> like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
> As it appears you coulden't read the first time from your throne:
>
> 1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a reasonable / responsible
> driver) because I had determined that (at that time) I was not
> properly equiped and did not have the resources if I were to get into
> trouble.
> 2) I did recommend / advise against attempting without lots of
> clearance.
>
> Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
> "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
> As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the semi
> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to climb near
> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's right to
> say where someone does or does not belong (I don't recall seeing you
> at the last BLM meeting either)
> FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of a
> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."
>
> "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it, you do not belong
> on that trail."
> I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted (which I'm sure you
> always use before spinning all four gouging and spiting rock and
> admitting lack of ability to move unassisted). Let's compare
> possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash vs. tire scars on
> vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng attended several
> competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never stacked a rock or two
> for you, right?
> By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling / hiking in this area
> since the early 70's; you?
>
> See you at the next BLM meeting
> Steve
>
> > Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
> > This trail has been run by experienced drivers and rigs equipped to
> do it,
> > without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to stack rocks 20
> yards into
> > it, you do not belong on that trail.
> > There are plenty of trails out there for everyones level.
> >
> > Todd
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
> > >
> > >Earlier this year, after talking with many people and surveying
> > from
> > >the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
> > >The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is really really
> > really
> > >nasty. Because the other members of the group did not want to go
> further,
> > >I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only the first 20-30
> yards; it
> > >took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of stacking+ body
> damage to
> > >get back out.
> > >I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint hint) but
> > required
> > >equipment would be:
> > >minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
> > >Front and rear lockers
> > >winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
> > >
> > >Call if interested
> > >Steve Olney
> >
> > __________________________________________________ _______________
> > From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music is always
> playing
> > on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE!
> > http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
94246 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:27pm
Subject: Re: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Sandy and Todd, um, did either of you read his run description?
They turned around after deciding they were beyond their capabilities.
The rock stacking was done to get back out. No lectures should be given
because they had no idea what the trail ahead was like.
In my opinion, they did the sensible thing. They gave it a try (aren't
we all allowed to do this, it being public land and all?) and called it
quits when it became apparent that it was beyond their capabilities. So
a few rocks were stacked to get them back out. At least they didn't
just continue on and stack the entire trail as others probably would
have. Besides, he never said he didn't unstack them.
Everyone, please don't be so quick to jump down the other guys/girls
throat, ESPECIALLY if you weren't there or do not know all the facts.
When you make assumptions without facts, you just make yourself look
bad and create ill will in the group. We have enough bickering here
lately. Lets work to save our trails, not bicker about who can play
where.
Just my $.02
Chris
On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 02:57 PM, Sandee McCullen wrote:
>
> Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing trails via ROCK
> PAVING
> needs to stop.
>
> Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line is simply: If
> you
> cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks to enable you
> to get
> through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T BELONG THERE!! The
> "semi
> permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do with "ruining a good
> trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of paving is what is
> "ruining
> the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now and then to "help"
> is
> done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy would have you
> REMOVE
> the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of the obstacle.
> There
> are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge" for every level of
> 4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the extreme driver/vehicle
> is
> what is causing the problems and is what is in discussion from your
> message.
> This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's ALL of us.........
> respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for all.
>
> Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock crawling with no,
> or
> very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS! All they're
> asking is
> the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do whatever they
> wish
> STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
>
> We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are not happy about
> "rock
> paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the watershed or natural
> layout
> of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother Nature does a good job
> of
> keeping trails natural but some of the stacking/paving happening today
> is
> well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
> [FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of a
>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."] This
>> may
> not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good trail" but it is
> if
> YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother Nature may make a
> trail easier or harder but that should be left to nature NOT YOU or
> other
> want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have been wheel'n
> Arizona and
> California since BEFORE the early 70's. For whatever that's
> worth??????
>
>
> Again, if you cannot traverse a trail or obstacle with your vehicle,
> winch,
> tires and/or ability and have to rock PAVE....... You don't belong
> there.
>
> Sandee
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:27 PM
>> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
>>
>>
>>
>> Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it appears you would
>> like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
>> As it appears you coulden't read the first time from your throne:
>>
>> 1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a reasonable / responsible
>> driver) because I had determined that (at that time) I was not
>> properly equiped and did not have the resources if I were to get into
>> trouble.
>> 2) I did recommend / advise against attempting without lots of
>> clearance.
>>
>> Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
>> "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
>> As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the semi
>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to climb near
>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's right to
>> say where someone does or does not belong (I don't recall seeing you
>> at the last BLM meeting either)
>> FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of a
>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."
>>
>> "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it, you do not belong
>> on that trail."
>> I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted (which I'm sure you
>> always use before spinning all four gouging and spiting rock and
>> admitting lack of ability to move unassisted). Let's compare
>> possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash vs. tire scars on
>> vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng attended several
>> competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never stacked a rock or two
>> for you, right?
>> By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling / hiking in this area
>> since the early 70's; you?
>>
>> See you at the next BLM meeting
>> Steve
>>
>>> Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
>>> This trail has been run by experienced drivers and rigs equipped to
>> do it,
>>> without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to stack rocks 20
>> yards into
>>> it, you do not belong on that trail.
>>> There are plenty of trails out there for everyones level.
>>>
>>> Todd
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
>>>>
>>>> Earlier this year, after talking with many people and surveying
>>> from
>>>> the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
>>>> The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is really really
>>> really
>>>> nasty. Because the other members of the group did not want to go
>> further,
>>>> I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only the first 20-30
>> yards; it
>>>> took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of stacking+ body
>> damage to
>>>> get back out.
>>>> I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint hint) but
>>> required
>>>> equipment would be:
>>>> minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
>>>> Front and rear lockers
>>>> winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
>>>>
>>>> Call if interested
>>>> Steve Olney
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________ _______________
>>> From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music is always
>> playing
>>> on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE!
>>> http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
94247 From: Sharky <sharxjeep@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:29pm
Subject: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Very well said Sandee...
Sharky
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee McCullen" <mccullen@c...>
wrote:
>
> Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing trails via ROCK
PAVING
> needs to stop.
>
> Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line is simply:
If you
> cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks to enable
you to get
> through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T BELONG THERE!!
The "semi
> permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do with "ruining a
good
> trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of paving is what
is "ruining
> the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now and then
to "help" is
> done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy would have you
REMOVE
> the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of the
obstacle. There
> are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge" for every level
of
> 4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the extreme
driver/vehicle is
> what is causing the problems and is what is in discussion from your
message.
> This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's ALL of
us.........
> respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for all.
>
> Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock crawling with
no, or
> very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS! All they're
asking is
> the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do whatever they
wish
> STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
>
> We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are not happy
about "rock
> paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the watershed or
natural layout
> of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother Nature does a good
job of
> keeping trails natural but some of the stacking/paving happening
today is
> well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
> [FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom
of a
> > wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
> > minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."]
This may
> not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good trail" but it
is if
> YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother Nature may
make a
> trail easier or harder but that should be left to nature NOT YOU or
other
> want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have been wheel'n
Arizona and
> California since BEFORE the early 70's. For whatever that's
worth??????
>
>
> Again, if you cannot traverse a trail or obstacle with your
vehicle, winch,
> tires and/or ability and have to rock PAVE....... You don't belong
there.
>
> Sandee
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:27 PM
> > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> >
> >
> >
> > Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it appears you
would
> > like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
> > As it appears you coulden't read the first time from your throne:
> >
> > 1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a reasonable / responsible
> > driver) because I had determined that (at that time) I was not
> > properly equiped and did not have the resources if I were to get
into
> > trouble.
> > 2) I did recommend / advise against attempting without lots of
> > clearance.
> >
> > Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
> > "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
> > As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the semi
> > perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to climb near
> > vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's right to
> > say where someone does or does not belong (I don't recall seeing
you
> > at the last BLM meeting either)
> > FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom
of a
> > wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
> > minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."
> >
> > "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it, you do not
belong
> > on that trail."
> > I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted (which I'm sure you
> > always use before spinning all four gouging and spiting rock and
> > admitting lack of ability to move unassisted). Let's compare
> > possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash vs. tire scars
on
> > vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng attended several
> > competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never stacked a rock or
two
> > for you, right?
> > By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling / hiking in this area
> > since the early 70's; you?
> >
> > See you at the next BLM meeting
> > Steve
> >
> > > Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
> > > This trail has been run by experienced drivers and rigs
equipped to
> > do it,
> > > without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to stack rocks 20
> > yards into
> > > it, you do not belong on that trail.
> > > There are plenty of trails out there for everyones level.
> > >
> > > Todd
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
> > > >
> > > >Earlier this year, after talking with many people and surveying
> > > from
> > > >the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
> > > >The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is really really
> > > really
> > > >nasty. Because the other members of the group did not want to
go
> > further,
> > > >I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only the first 20-
30
> > yards; it
> > > >took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of stacking+ body
> > damage to
> > > >get back out.
> > > >I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint hint) but
> > > required
> > > >equipment would be:
> > > >minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
> > > >Front and rear lockers
> > > >winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
> > > >
> > > >Call if interested
> > > >Steve Olney
> > >
> > >
__________________________________________________ _______________
> > > From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music is
always
> > playing
> > > on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE!
> > > http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
94248 From: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:34pm
Subject: New file uploaded to az_vjc
Hello,
This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the az_vjc
group.
File : /Click here for a great dating service
Uploaded by : bilozobusi0442 <bilozobusi0442@y...>
Description : Browse through singles
You can access this file at the URL
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/files/Click%20here%20for%20a%20great%20dating%20service
To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
Regards,
bilozobusi0442 <bilozobusi0442@y...>
94249 From: Keith <khaw@n...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:40pm
Subject: RE: OT--Welding question
Thanks for the advice.. I'd love to get a 175 but aren't they 220v
units? Anyway it will probably be awhile before I can get one. The
little flux core is going to have to do for now.
Keith
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94250 From: Sandee McCullen <mccullen@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:45pm
Subject: RE: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Chris, I don't think anyone "jumped down anyones throat"......... simply
stated "rock paving" is ruining our extreme trails and is hurting us all.
I have NO PROBLEM with turning around when finding a trail is too tough but
you and I both KNOW that there are waaaaaay too many vehicles going into
trails they KNOW they are not equipped to do without rocking or making
by-passes! I hear over and over again....... "no problem, we'll 'pull you
through'". WHY???? Isn't actually "driving to the individual challenge"
what we're suppose to be about?
I didn't pretend to "be there" and I didn't accuse anyone of
"semi-permanent" damage. Nor did I accuse the rock crawlers of being
"GODS". My message was to EVERYONE that are doing trails above their
ability, rock paving or making by-passes to get through to stay within their
own challenge limitations. These actions WILL affect ALL of us in the near
future and it won't be what anyone wants to hear. This kind of abuse is
closing trails across the country. The agencies are having a tough enough
time understanding the "challenge" of extreme 4-wheeling, but when all they
see is the rock paving, by-passes, oil spills, and vegetation winched out of
the ground they simply declare "abuse and resource damage" and close
everything. It's going to take ALL of us to truly show RESPONSIBLE use of
our recreation trails system................
The responses from Todd and myself simply stated "to stay on trails within
individual vehicle and/or driver capabilities"............. or "UNSTACK if
the need for rocks is called for".
Sandee
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 3:28 PM
> To: Sandee McCullen
> Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
>
>
> Sandy and Todd, um, did either of you read his run description?
> They turned around after deciding they were beyond their capabilities.
> The rock stacking was done to get back out. No lectures should be given
> because they had no idea what the trail ahead was like.
> In my opinion, they did the sensible thing. They gave it a try (aren't
> we all allowed to do this, it being public land and all?) and called it
> quits when it became apparent that it was beyond their capabilities. So
> a few rocks were stacked to get them back out. At least they didn't
> just continue on and stack the entire trail as others probably would
> have. Besides, he never said he didn't unstack them.
>
> Everyone, please don't be so quick to jump down the other guys/girls
> throat, ESPECIALLY if you weren't there or do not know all the facts.
> When you make assumptions without facts, you just make yourself look
> bad and create ill will in the group. We have enough bickering here
> lately. Lets work to save our trails, not bicker about who can play
> where.
>
> Just my $.02
>
> Chris
>
> On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 02:57 PM, Sandee McCullen wrote:
>
> >
> > Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing trails via ROCK
> > PAVING
> > needs to stop.
> >
> > Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line is simply: If
> > you
> > cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks to enable you
> > to get
> > through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T BELONG THERE!! The
> > "semi
> > permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do with "ruining a good
> > trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of paving is what is
> > "ruining
> > the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now and then to "help"
> > is
> > done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy would have you
> > REMOVE
> > the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of the obstacle.
> > There
> > are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge" for every level of
> > 4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the extreme driver/vehicle
> > is
> > what is causing the problems and is what is in discussion from your
> > message.
> > This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's ALL of us.........
> > respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for all.
> >
> > Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock crawling with no,
> > or
> > very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS! All they're
> > asking is
> > the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do whatever they
> > wish
> > STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
> >
> > We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are not happy about
> > "rock
> > paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the watershed or natural
> > layout
> > of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother Nature does a good job
> > of
> > keeping trails natural but some of the stacking/paving happening today
> > is
> > well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
> > [FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of a
> >> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
> >> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."] This
> >> may
> > not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good trail" but it is
> > if
> > YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother Nature may make a
> > trail easier or harder but that should be left to nature NOT YOU or
> > other
> > want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have been wheel'n
> > Arizona and
> > California since BEFORE the early 70's. For whatever that's
> > worth??????
> >
> >
> > Again, if you cannot traverse a trail or obstacle with your vehicle,
> > winch,
> > tires and/or ability and have to rock PAVE....... You don't belong
> > there.
> >
> > Sandee
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:27 PM
> >> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it appears you would
> >> like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
> >> As it appears you coulden't read the first time from your throne:
> >>
> >> 1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a reasonable / responsible
> >> driver) because I had determined that (at that time) I was not
> >> properly equiped and did not have the resources if I were to get into
> >> trouble.
> >> 2) I did recommend / advise against attempting without lots of
> >> clearance.
> >>
> >> Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
> >> "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
> >> As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the semi
> >> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to climb near
> >> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's right to
> >> say where someone does or does not belong (I don't recall seeing you
> >> at the last BLM meeting either)
> >> FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of a
> >> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
> >> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."
> >>
> >> "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it, you do not belong
> >> on that trail."
> >> I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted (which I'm sure you
> >> always use before spinning all four gouging and spiting rock and
> >> admitting lack of ability to move unassisted). Let's compare
> >> possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash vs. tire scars on
> >> vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng attended several
> >> competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never stacked a rock or two
> >> for you, right?
> >> By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling / hiking in this area
> >> since the early 70's; you?
> >>
> >> See you at the next BLM meeting
> >> Steve
> >>
> >>> Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
> >>> This trail has been run by experienced drivers and rigs equipped to
> >> do it,
> >>> without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to stack rocks 20
> >> yards into
> >>> it, you do not belong on that trail.
> >>> There are plenty of trails out there for everyones level.
> >>>
> >>> Todd
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
> >>>>
> >>>> Earlier this year, after talking with many people and surveying
> >>> from
> >>>> the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
> >>>> The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is really really
> >>> really
> >>>> nasty. Because the other members of the group did not want to go
> >> further,
> >>>> I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only the first 20-30
> >> yards; it
> >>>> took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of stacking+ body
> >> damage to
> >>>> get back out.
> >>>> I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint hint) but
> >>> required
> >>>> equipment would be:
> >>>> minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
> >>>> Front and rear lockers
> >>>> winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
> >>>>
> >>>> Call if interested
> >>>> Steve Olney
> >>>
> >>> __________________________________________________ _______________
> >>> From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music is always
> >> playing
> >>> on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE!
> >>> http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
94251 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:01pm
Subject: Needed YJ uppers Thanks
Hey I need a pair of black YJ uppers too (for the doors. Skins will
work). :D Can someone help me out?
-----Original Message-----
From: dbkcs [mailto:dbkcs@y...]
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 7:48 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] YJ uppers Thanks
Just wanted to say thanks to all that responded for the uppers. I
got a call shortly after placing it and went and picked them up.
Thanks Steve the girls were much warmer today. :) Steve
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
94252 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:03pm
Subject: RE: Crown King Trip
NOPE not me I think you are thinking of Scott Maiden's green YJ. He has
been know to push his Jeep past the edge a couple of times. :p
Joey K
93YJ still upright.
-----Original Message-----
From: Hackle [mailto:hackle@q...]
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 6:59 PM
To: laredo0249; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Crown King Trip
If it was a White YJ it is probably Joey K again. He will be
back in a
couple days looking for his Jeep. BTW be careful as when he goes on
these
"trips" he feels it is clothing optional:) Jim F.
Arizona RockRats President
http://www.rockrats.org/
"I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member" Groucho
Marx
Member of the original dirty half dozen.
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/
-----Original Message-----
From: laredo0249 [mailto:Dslywalker1@a...]
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 6:54 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Crown King Trip
Just curious there was a red Jeep yesterday 11/9/03 that run off the
road out of Crown King about 5 in the afternoon.I don't know if it
supported a Club Sticker but our Fire Dept. responded to it.There was
supposed to be 2 people out of there Jeep walking around.By the time
we got to the incident there was no one there but the Jeep.Any incite
on this issue?
Thanx Mike
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
94253 From: Jeff Raben <jraben@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:08pm
Subject: YJ Gear box needed
I have a STOCK 89 Wrangler/4 cyl with Power Steering; the steering is very
loose, I think the gear box is bad; when stopped there is alot of play in
it. Anyone know where they rebuid them or where I can get a new one?
Thanks!!
Jeff
www.jeffraben.com
PS- if you are looking to buy a jeep check out the ones we have for sale,
www.royalaz.com
94254 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:30pm
Subject: [Tech] CJ Windshield leakage - CJ windshield leakage
I recently got a CJ8 and noticed when it rained the other day that there was some water in the new aluminum valve cover I had sitting on the floor. There was still a little water on the bottom of the windshield frame on both sides. How difficult is it to change out windshield rubber? I also noticed some bubbled paint in the middle of the frame. I want to take care of that when I have the windshield out. Is there any specific fix for this or just new rubber and some black window calking.
Ray Dyer
94255 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:38pm
Subject: [Tech] 84 scrambler - to lift or not to lift
Just got this scrambler and the springs look flat. I want to put on some bigger tires possibly 31- 33inch range This will be a daily driver and fourwheel/hunting vehicle, not rock crawler. I am looking for an improved ride and don't want any rubbing. Any recommendations?
Ray Dyer
94256 From: Scott Maiden <bermboy@h...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:56pm
Subject: Re: Crown King Trip
What? who told you that? Lies I say... lies...
I work at costco, its all from shopping carts...
lol
Scott
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "DesertJeep" <joey@d...> wrote:
> NOPE not me I think you are thinking of Scott Maiden's green YJ. He
has
> been know to push his Jeep past the edge a couple of times. :p
>
> Joey K
> 93YJ still upright.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hackle [mailto:hackle@q...]
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 6:59 PM
> To: laredo0249; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Crown King Trip
>
> If it was a White YJ it is probably Joey K again. He will be
> back in a
> couple days looking for his Jeep. BTW be careful as when he goes on
> these
> "trips" he feels it is clothing optional:) Jim F.
>
> Arizona RockRats President
> http://www.rockrats.org/
> "I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member"
Groucho
> Marx
> Member of the original dirty half dozen.
> http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: laredo0249 [mailto:Dslywalker1@a...]
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 6:54 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Crown King Trip
>
>
> Just curious there was a red Jeep yesterday 11/9/03 that run off the
> road out of Crown King about 5 in the afternoon.I don't know if it
> supported a Club Sticker but our Fire Dept. responded to it.There
was
> supposed to be 2 people out of there Jeep walking around.By the time
> we got to the incident there was no one there but the Jeep.Any
incite
> on this issue?
> Thanx Mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
94257 From: Sandee McCullen <mccullen@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:58pm
Subject: WORK GROUPS REMINDER
Hi all.......
Just sending a reminder to those of you that volunteered to help out with
the Desert Wells riding area in the east valley.....
ASLD, Game & Fish, Pinal County, and US will be working at digging holes and
placing posts in starting tomorrow through Saturday. IF we should have
enough help........ or families....... wives, kids etc........ we can
handle a crew to work at finishing the trail numbers on signs.
Starting tomorrow I will be at the Jack in the Box at M.P. 201 in Gold
Canyon at 7:45 a.m. We will pull out at 8:00 a.m. to designated work area.
Saturday Jeff Gursh from the Az Trail Riders will be there as the 4-wheelers
have an ASA4WDC meeting in Chandler.
Also please mark your calendars for the weekend of the 22nd and
23rd............... this will be to help law enforcement along Ironwood Rd
in apache Junction to direct the riders to the planned and designated riding
area. Those that fight it will be cited. Same place, same time.
If we have enough we could finish the trail numbering and then this project
will be DONE!!!
THANKS to ALL that can spare a few hours to help out. PLEASE PASS THIS
INFORMATION ON TO YOUR LISTS..........
Sandee
94258 From: Steve G. <glock45x@n...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:21pm
Subject: Re: OT--Welding question
My Miller 135 (120V) is designed to weld upto 3/16 thick. But welding
that thick of metal the duty cycle is about 2 minutes out of 10
minutes, or 10%. So your 80A would probably do about half of that or
less. I would not expect much from a "off brand" welder.
Steve
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <khaw@n...> wrote:
> I got a cheapie little wire feed welder {80a} welder from a cousin. I
> know it's not going to be big enough. But I figure it's something to
> learn with till I can afford a Miller135. I haven't had a welder in my
> hand sense the early 70's. Anyway, what's the thickest I can weld with
> this and expect it to hold? I'd like to build a welding cart/table,
> about 2'X4". What should I use, angle or tubing, and thickness?
> Thanks
> Keith
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> FIGHT BACK AGAINST SPAM!
> Download Spam Inspector, the Award Winning Anti-Spam Filter
> http://mail.giantcompany.com
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
94259 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:21pm
Subject: RE: Re: Crown King Trip
And your Jeep ramps like a shopping cart too!!! ROTFLMAO!!!!
:o
Joey K
93YJ - that ramps worse then Scotts.
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Maiden [mailto:bermboy@h...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 4:56 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Crown King Trip
What? who told you that? Lies I say... lies...
I work at costco, its all from shopping carts...
lol
Scott
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "DesertJeep" <joey@d...> wrote:
> NOPE not me I think you are thinking of Scott Maiden's green YJ. He
has
> been know to push his Jeep past the edge a couple of times. :p
>
> Joey K
> 93YJ still upright.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hackle [mailto:hackle@q...]
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 6:59 PM
> To: laredo0249; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Crown King Trip
>
> If it was a White YJ it is probably Joey K again. He will be
> back in a
> couple days looking for his Jeep. BTW be careful as when he goes on
> these
> "trips" he feels it is clothing optional:) Jim F.
>
> Arizona RockRats President
> http://www.rockrats.org/
> "I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member"
Groucho
> Marx
> Member of the original dirty half dozen.
> http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: laredo0249 [mailto:Dslywalker1@a...]
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 6:54 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Crown King Trip
>
>
> Just curious there was a red Jeep yesterday 11/9/03 that run off the
> road out of Crown King about 5 in the afternoon.I don't know if it
> supported a Club Sticker but our Fire Dept. responded to it.There
was
> supposed to be 2 people out of there Jeep walking around.By the time
> we got to the incident there was no one there but the Jeep.Any
incite
> on this issue?
> Thanx Mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
94260 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:40pm
Subject: Re: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
I quote you:
"If you cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks to
enable you to get through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T
BELONG THERE!!"
The use of "you" and the caps (internet yelling) make it look like it
was directed to him. Sorry if I misinterpreted this.
Your points are all correct, but it is incorrect to use them against
Steve in this case, since we were not there and have no idea in what
condition he left the trail.
If we are going to preach, we should do it in a general manner. It is
unfair to use someone else's post about a run to further our ideas,
even if they are good ideas. To some, it will seem like we are bashing
the post.
I read Steve's post and thought it was very responsible that they did
what they did. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that they unstacked
the rock. Remember, innocent until proven guilty works in may ways
besides in a court of law, especially with friends and fellow wheelers.
It was pointed out to me in an email from another member that his email
also indicated that they might stack rocks if they go back. Again, I
give him the benefit of the doubt that they will unstack them as well.
If they do not, then I will lose and my trust of him will be lost.
Remember (and this is my final point since I don't want this to grow in
to more than it has), if we were to never wheel on trails that there is
the potential that we will have to stack rocks, most of us would never
leave the graded dirt road. That would be a shame.
Chris
On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 03:45 PM, Sandee McCullen wrote:
> Chris, I don't think anyone "jumped down anyones throat".........
> simply
> stated "rock paving" is ruining our extreme trails and is hurting us
> all.
>
> I have NO PROBLEM with turning around when finding a trail is too
> tough but
> you and I both KNOW that there are waaaaaay too many vehicles going
> into
> trails they KNOW they are not equipped to do without rocking or making
> by-passes! I hear over and over again....... "no problem, we'll 'pull
> you
> through'". WHY???? Isn't actually "driving to the individual
> challenge"
> what we're suppose to be about?
>
> I didn't pretend to "be there" and I didn't accuse anyone of
> "semi-permanent" damage. Nor did I accuse the rock crawlers of being
> "GODS". My message was to EVERYONE that are doing trails above their
> ability, rock paving or making by-passes to get through to stay within
> their
> own challenge limitations. These actions WILL affect ALL of us in the
> near
> future and it won't be what anyone wants to hear. This kind of abuse
> is
> closing trails across the country. The agencies are having a tough
> enough
> time understanding the "challenge" of extreme 4-wheeling, but when all
> they
> see is the rock paving, by-passes, oil spills, and vegetation winched
> out of
> the ground they simply declare "abuse and resource damage" and close
> everything. It's going to take ALL of us to truly show RESPONSIBLE
> use of
> our recreation trails system................
>
> The responses from Todd and myself simply stated "to stay on trails
> within
> individual vehicle and/or driver capabilities"............. or
> "UNSTACK if
> the need for rocks is called for".
>
> Sandee
>
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 3:28 PM
>> To: Sandee McCullen
>> Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
>>
>>
>> Sandy and Todd, um, did either of you read his run description?
>> They turned around after deciding they were beyond their capabilities.
>> The rock stacking was done to get back out. No lectures should be
>> given
>> because they had no idea what the trail ahead was like.
>> In my opinion, they did the sensible thing. They gave it a try (aren't
>> we all allowed to do this, it being public land and all?) and called
>> it
>> quits when it became apparent that it was beyond their capabilities.
>> So
>> a few rocks were stacked to get them back out. At least they didn't
>> just continue on and stack the entire trail as others probably would
>> have. Besides, he never said he didn't unstack them.
>>
>> Everyone, please don't be so quick to jump down the other guys/girls
>> throat, ESPECIALLY if you weren't there or do not know all the facts.
>> When you make assumptions without facts, you just make yourself look
>> bad and create ill will in the group. We have enough bickering here
>> lately. Lets work to save our trails, not bicker about who can play
>> where.
>>
>> Just my $.02
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 02:57 PM, Sandee McCullen wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing trails via ROCK
>>> PAVING
>>> needs to stop.
>>>
>>> Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line is simply: If
>>> you
>>> cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks to enable you
>>> to get
>>> through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T BELONG THERE!! The
>>> "semi
>>> permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do with "ruining a good
>>> trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of paving is what is
>>> "ruining
>>> the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now and then to
>>> "help"
>>> is
>>> done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy would have you
>>> REMOVE
>>> the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of the obstacle.
>>> There
>>> are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge" for every level of
>>> 4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the extreme driver/vehicle
>>> is
>>> what is causing the problems and is what is in discussion from your
>>> message.
>>> This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's ALL of us.........
>>> respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for all.
>>>
>>> Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock crawling with
>>> no,
>>> or
>>> very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS! All they're
>>> asking is
>>> the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do whatever they
>>> wish
>>> STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
>>>
>>> We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are not happy about
>>> "rock
>>> paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the watershed or natural
>>> layout
>>> of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother Nature does a good
>>> job
>>> of
>>> keeping trails natural but some of the stacking/paving happening
>>> today
>>> is
>>> well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
>>> [FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of
>>> a
>>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
>>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."] This
>>>> may
>>> not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good trail" but it
>>> is
>>> if
>>> YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother Nature may
>>> make a
>>> trail easier or harder but that should be left to nature NOT YOU or
>>> other
>>> want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have been wheel'n
>>> Arizona and
>>> California since BEFORE the early 70's. For whatever that's
>>> worth??????
>>>
>>>
>>> Again, if you cannot traverse a trail or obstacle with your vehicle,
>>> winch,
>>> tires and/or ability and have to rock PAVE....... You don't belong
>>> there.
>>>
>>> Sandee
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:27 PM
>>>> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it appears you would
>>>> like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
>>>> As it appears you coulden't read the first time from your throne:
>>>>
>>>> 1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a reasonable / responsible
>>>> driver) because I had determined that (at that time) I was not
>>>> properly equiped and did not have the resources if I were to get
>>>> into
>>>> trouble.
>>>> 2) I did recommend / advise against attempting without lots of
>>>> clearance.
>>>>
>>>> Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
>>>> "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
>>>> As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the semi
>>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to climb near
>>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's right to
>>>> say where someone does or does not belong (I don't recall seeing you
>>>> at the last BLM meeting either)
>>>> FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of a
>>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
>>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."
>>>>
>>>> "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it, you do not belong
>>>> on that trail."
>>>> I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted (which I'm sure you
>>>> always use before spinning all four gouging and spiting rock and
>>>> admitting lack of ability to move unassisted). Let's compare
>>>> possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash vs. tire scars on
>>>> vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng attended several
>>>> competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never stacked a rock or two
>>>> for you, right?
>>>> By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling / hiking in this area
>>>> since the early 70's; you?
>>>>
>>>> See you at the next BLM meeting
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>>> Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
>>>>> This trail has been run by experienced drivers and rigs equipped to
>>>> do it,
>>>>> without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to stack rocks 20
>>>> yards into
>>>>> it, you do not belong on that trail.
>>>>> There are plenty of trails out there for everyones level.
>>>>>
>>>>> Todd
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Earlier this year, after talking with many people and surveying
>>>>> from
>>>>>> the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
>>>>>> The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is really really
>>>>> really
>>>>>> nasty. Because the other members of the group did not want to go
>>>> further,
>>>>>> I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only the first 20-30
>>>> yards; it
>>>>>> took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of stacking+ body
>>>> damage to
>>>>>> get back out.
>>>>>> I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint hint) but
>>>>> required
>>>>>> equipment would be:
>>>>>> minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
>>>>>> Front and rear lockers
>>>>>> winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Call if interested
>>>>>> Steve Olney
>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________________________ _______________
>>>>> From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music is always
>>>> playing
>>>>> on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE!
>>>>> http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
94261 From: Steve G. <glock45x@n...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:52pm
Subject: Re: Ft. Huachuca trails?
Those "trails" you see are really fire breaks. As far as I know there
are no "trails" on the fort. During this time of war I dought that
they would appricate a non-military person driving around unescorted
on back roads.
Steve
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Russell" <desertjeep@c...> wrote:
> I was working down at Ft. Huachuca today and noticed what appears
to be a lot of trails going up into the mountains on the base. The
police at the entrance really couldn't give me much info other than a
lot of mountain bikers go up there. Anyone have any experience
running trails on the base?
>
> TIA,
> Jim
> Tucson
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
94262 From: Sandee McCullen <mccullen@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:08pm
Subject: RE: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
OK........... my apologies in the use of "YOU". It was meant to be
directed at anyone that is into a trail they don't belong..... or those that
seem to believe PAVING is simply a way to allow them to go where they
please! Yes, caps indicate yelling or very strong suggestion and that is
exactly what I meant. I agree I was not there and I do appreciate the fact
he did turn around, but he also slams the extreme wheeler and indicated he
had as much right on those trails as anyone else. NO he does not.........
not if it means the extreme wheeler has to lose any/all challenge they have
because someone wants to "do what the big guys do". I'm so tired of this
attitude and mentality. Just because someone builds a vehicle capable of
doing almost anything does not make them "the big guy", or "GOD", or anyone
any different than you, I or the first time 4-wheeler.
There were comments comparing the "damage" the buggies or rock crawlers do
............ like leaving "semi-permanent marks" on the rocks. Or climbing
"near vertical obstacles"........ sounds like like the green eye of
jealousy to me. This is not damage........ paving or making by-passes IS
damage and abuse and these actions are what will close ALL our trails.
......
[As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the semi
> >>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to climb near
> >>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's right to
> >>>> say where someone does or does not belong]
This comes across to me as "I'll do as I please"........ "it's my right to
stack rocks as long as the day is long", "I don't do any more damage than
the "rock scratchers" yada yada yada!! YES, it is MY RIGHT if these kinds
of actions lose the only challenge I have within my sport! YES, I AM
YELLING Chris............... there are way too many recreationists out
there that simply do NOT get the picture. Too many ATV's tear across
country, the 4-wheelers enter trails they are not capable of doing, many
motorcycles go way to fast............... and we can't seem to understand
"WHY" we're losing everything. The agencies simply do not want to deal with
the headaches of the recreationists not being responsible. ..... Before
you go off again, I'm not saying or claiming this Steve was "not"
responsible but his attitude is certainly in the grey area...
There are LARGE groups of agency planners that feel the "graded gravel roads
should be enough for us". There are also LARGE numbers of new personnel
joining the land management agencies and believe me............., for the
most part, they are GREEN!!! Everyone seems to be into "saving" something.
Our battles will not be getting easier and abuse such as rock paving and
by-passes are the first issues to be held over us. We lost Jawbreaker
because of "rock paving"........ had vehicles going through "DErocked" the
obstacle after getting through the Tucson BLM wouldn't have had anything to
present to the courts to show "abuse". Game & Fish are no better. If it's
not wildlife habitat destruction, it's "messing up the watershed" of the
area or rock stacking is showing to alter the flow because it tends to hold
silt or gravel instead of allowing it to wash down stream etc etc
etc............. there's desert tortoise, or a lizard, or beetle or a WEED.
They'll use anything they can to shut out OHV recreation......... WHY do we
insist on hurting ourselves!!!?
I am rambling and will continue to do so until ALL of my fellow 4-wheelers
finally understand that we each have our own level of wheeling and to mess
us someone elses challenge just to prove a point, will shut us all down.
Sandee
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 5:40 PM
> To: Sandee McCullen
> Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
>
>
> I quote you:
>
> "If you cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks to
> enable you to get through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T
> BELONG THERE!!"
>
> The use of "you" and the caps (internet yelling) make it look like it
> was directed to him. Sorry if I misinterpreted this.
>
> Your points are all correct, but it is incorrect to use them against
> Steve in this case, since we were not there and have no idea in what
> condition he left the trail.
>
> If we are going to preach, we should do it in a general manner. It is
> unfair to use someone else's post about a run to further our ideas,
> even if they are good ideas. To some, it will seem like we are bashing
> the post.
>
> I read Steve's post and thought it was very responsible that they did
> what they did. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that they unstacked
> the rock. Remember, innocent until proven guilty works in may ways
> besides in a court of law, especially with friends and fellow wheelers.
> It was pointed out to me in an email from another member that his email
> also indicated that they might stack rocks if they go back. Again, I
> give him the benefit of the doubt that they will unstack them as well.
> If they do not, then I will lose and my trust of him will be lost.
>
> Remember (and this is my final point since I don't want this to grow in
> to more than it has), if we were to never wheel on trails that there is
> the potential that we will have to stack rocks, most of us would never
> leave the graded dirt road. That would be a shame.
>
> Chris
>
> On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 03:45 PM, Sandee McCullen wrote:
>
> > Chris, I don't think anyone "jumped down anyones throat".........
> > simply
> > stated "rock paving" is ruining our extreme trails and is hurting us
> > all.
> >
> > I have NO PROBLEM with turning around when finding a trail is too
> > tough but
> > you and I both KNOW that there are waaaaaay too many vehicles going
> > into
> > trails they KNOW they are not equipped to do without rocking or making
> > by-passes! I hear over and over again....... "no problem, we'll 'pull
> > you
> > through'". WHY???? Isn't actually "driving to the individual
> > challenge"
> > what we're suppose to be about?
> >
> > I didn't pretend to "be there" and I didn't accuse anyone of
> > "semi-permanent" damage. Nor did I accuse the rock crawlers of being
> > "GODS". My message was to EVERYONE that are doing trails above their
> > ability, rock paving or making by-passes to get through to stay within
> > their
> > own challenge limitations. These actions WILL affect ALL of us in the
> > near
> > future and it won't be what anyone wants to hear. This kind of abuse
> > is
> > closing trails across the country. The agencies are having a tough
> > enough
> > time understanding the "challenge" of extreme 4-wheeling, but when all
> > they
> > see is the rock paving, by-passes, oil spills, and vegetation winched
> > out of
> > the ground they simply declare "abuse and resource damage" and close
> > everything. It's going to take ALL of us to truly show RESPONSIBLE
> > use of
> > our recreation trails system................
> >
> > The responses from Todd and myself simply stated "to stay on trails
> > within
> > individual vehicle and/or driver capabilities"............. or
> > "UNSTACK if
> > the need for rocks is called for".
> >
> > Sandee
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 3:28 PM
> >> To: Sandee McCullen
> >> Cc: olneyjeeps; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> >>
> >>
> >> Sandy and Todd, um, did either of you read his run description?
> >> They turned around after deciding they were beyond their capabilities.
> >> The rock stacking was done to get back out. No lectures should be
> >> given
> >> because they had no idea what the trail ahead was like.
> >> In my opinion, they did the sensible thing. They gave it a try (aren't
> >> we all allowed to do this, it being public land and all?) and called
> >> it
> >> quits when it became apparent that it was beyond their capabilities.
> >> So
> >> a few rocks were stacked to get them back out. At least they didn't
> >> just continue on and stack the entire trail as others probably would
> >> have. Besides, he never said he didn't unstack them.
> >>
> >> Everyone, please don't be so quick to jump down the other guys/girls
> >> throat, ESPECIALLY if you weren't there or do not know all the facts.
> >> When you make assumptions without facts, you just make yourself look
> >> bad and create ill will in the group. We have enough bickering here
> >> lately. Lets work to save our trails, not bicker about who can play
> >> where.
> >>
> >> Just my $.02
> >>
> >> Chris
> >>
> >> On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 02:57 PM, Sandee McCullen wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Sorry for jumping in on this but the issue of doing trails via ROCK
> >>> PAVING
> >>> needs to stop.
> >>>
> >>> Please "feel excused"........... but the bottom line is simply: If
> >>> you
> >>> cannot traverse a trail without "paving" it with rocks to enable you
> >>> to get
> >>> through or across an obstacle........ YOU DON'T BELONG THERE!! The
> >>> "semi
> >>> permanent marks" you refer to have NOTHING to do with "ruining a good
> >>> trail"........... Rock stacking to the limit of paving is what is
> >>> "ruining
> >>> the trail" or the "challenge". Throwing a rock now and then to
> >>> "help"
> >>> is
> >>> done by everyone from time to time. Trail courtesy would have you
> >>> REMOVE
> >>> the rock/s to allow the next vehicle the challenge of the obstacle.
> >>> There
> >>> are more than enough trails to cause a "challenge" for every level of
> >>> 4-wheeler...... taking the challenge from the extreme driver/vehicle
> >>> is
> >>> what is causing the problems and is what is in discussion from your
> >>> message.
> >>> This sport is not about ONE vehicle or driver it's ALL of us.........
> >>> respect for ALL is what will keep our trails open for all.
> >>>
> >>> Because drivers build vehicles capable of doing rock crawling with
> >>> no,
> >>> or
> >>> very little rock stacking, does NOT MAKE THEM GODS! All they're
> >>> asking is
> >>> the "want-a-be's" that are bound and determined to do whatever they
> >>> wish
> >>> STOP RUINING THEIR CHALLENGE.
> >>>
> >>> We may see you at the "next BLM meeting" but BLM are not happy about
> >>> "rock
> >>> paving" either............ this DOES CHANGE the watershed or natural
> >>> layout
> >>> of the land and WILL get trails closed. Mother Nature does a good
> >>> job
> >>> of
> >>> keeping trails natural but some of the stacking/paving happening
> >>> today
> >>> is
> >>> well beyond what Mother Nature would do.
> >>> [FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of
> >>> a
> >>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
> >>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."] This
> >>>> may
> >>> not, in your humble opinion, be "ruining another good trail" but it
> >>> is
> >>> if
> >>> YOU are stacking rocks and NOT REMOVING them. Mother Nature may
> >>> make a
> >>> trail easier or harder but that should be left to nature NOT YOU or
> >>> other
> >>> want-a-be's......... and YES, "I" and my sons have been wheel'n
> >>> Arizona and
> >>> California since BEFORE the early 70's. For whatever that's
> >>> worth??????
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Again, if you cannot traverse a trail or obstacle with your vehicle,
> >>> winch,
> >>> tires and/or ability and have to rock PAVE....... You don't belong
> >>> there.
> >>>
> >>> Sandee
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: olneyjeeps [mailto:olneyjeeps@y...]
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:27 PM
> >>>> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Excuuuse me for setting tread on a trail which it appears you would
> >>>> like reserved for rock crawling gods as yourself
> >>>> As it appears you coulden't read the first time from your throne:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1) I turned around (over 3 mile in, as a reasonable / responsible
> >>>> driver) because I had determined that (at that time) I was not
> >>>> properly equiped and did not have the resources if I were to get
> >>>> into
> >>>> trouble.
> >>>> 2) I did recommend / advise against attempting without lots of
> >>>> clearance.
> >>>>
> >>>> Furthermore in respinse to your comments,
> >>>> "Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!"
> >>>> As long as it is not causing long term damage (such as the semi
> >>>> perminant marks you leave behind while attempting to climb near
> >>>> vertical "obsticals") it is not my, your, or anyone's right to
> >>>> say where someone does or does not belong (I don't recall seeing you
> >>>> at the last BLM meeting either)
> >>>> FYI, hydrodynamic lession: mooving 4-5 15lb rocks in the bottom of a
> >>>> wash frequented by water moving at several thousand cubic feet per
> >>>> minute is not what I would call "ruining another good trail."
> >>>>
> >>>> "If you need to stack rocks 20 yards into it, you do not belong
> >>>> on that trail."
> >>>> I suppose that is why you have a winch mounted (which I'm sure you
> >>>> always use before spinning all four gouging and spiting rock and
> >>>> admitting lack of ability to move unassisted). Let's compare
> >>>> possible long term damage: rocks in bottom of wash vs. tire scars on
> >>>> vertical terrain after futile spinning. Havng attended several
> >>>> competitions, I'm sure your spotter has never stacked a rock or two
> >>>> for you, right?
> >>>> By the way, I have been responsibly wheeling / hiking in this area
> >>>> since the early 70's; you?
> >>>>
> >>>> See you at the next BLM meeting
> >>>> Steve
> >>>>
> >>>>> Lets not ruin another good trail!!!!
> >>>>> This trail has been run by experienced drivers and rigs equipped to
> >>>> do it,
> >>>>> without STACKING ROCKS for years. If you need to stack rocks 20
> >>>> yards into
> >>>>> it, you do not belong on that trail.
> >>>>> There are plenty of trails out there for everyones level.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Todd
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: new member/ sandy beach
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Earlier this year, after talking with many people and surveying
> >>>>> from
> >>>>>> the air, I led a group on the sandy beach trail.
> >>>>>> The first 3miles are very easy. The next mile is really really
> >>>>> really
> >>>>>> nasty. Because the other members of the group did not want to go
> >>>> further,
> >>>>>> I (78CJ7 4" lift,33x12.5 BFG's+f+r lockers) only the first 20-30
> >>>> yards; it
> >>>>>> took about 30 minutes + broken shackle + lots of stacking+ body
> >>>> damage to
> >>>>>> get back out.
> >>>>>> I would love to lead another groop (challange/hint hint) but
> >>>>> required
> >>>>>> equipment would be:
> >>>>>> minumum 33x125, 35+ (33's=lot of body damage probable)
> >>>>>> Front and rear lockers
> >>>>>> winch + hooks strong back (rocks are heavy)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Call if interested
> >>>>>> Steve Olney
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________________ _______________
> >>>>> From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music is always
> >>>> playing
> >>>>> on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE!
> >>>>> http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
94263 From: <Hydrosense@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 0:39pm
Subject: Re: Re: sandy beach trail/stacking rocks
Sometimes I (very rarely) will stack a rock or two but only and only if I
have tried every line I can, and that's the only way to where I want to go..
BUT I MAKE SURE TO PUT ROCKS BACK!!!! so it doesn't spoil others that want the
challenge...So Just a lesson/reminder to you first timers. Its OK to stack
if you absolutely have to but please take the time once you got over or through
whatever obstacle, to PUT THEM BACK....Rob B Y2KXJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
94264 From: Joe <flexyxj98@m...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:56pm
Subject: Re: Thermostat opinions???
Ok, Joe is KINDA correct.....Yes, I would only run a 195
thermostat....WHY??? With JEEP computers being a "dumb" computer (
meaning is a speed density type system and not a mass airflow system,
The computer has a set of pre-determined points on a big "map".. It
can only ASSUME how much air is entering the engine, VS using a Mass
airflow meter to positivly meter the incoming air)The computer uses
the sending unit in the thermostat housing to sense temp at many
times. So in the morning, It will know that the coolant is cold, and
RICHEN the air/fuel mixture....all of the way up to 192 degrees, then
it will go into what is called "open loop", where it reads all of the
sensors to calculate the fuel mixture. IF the computer could NEVER
see 192 degrees, than it would continue to "have the choke" on and
richen the fuel mixture.... All of the time the O2 sensor cannot
tell the computer its running rich, Scince its in closed loop.
CONSEQUENCES....bad fuel milage, possible melted cat ( remember, the
more fuel a cat conv sees, the hotter it gets)....bottom line, use
the FACTORY MOPAR thermostat.....195 degrees..... Hope this helps...
FlexyXJ
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Joe West" <joe.west@s...> wrote:
> Comments Inline....
>
> The higher temperature thermostats open at a higher temperature,
> right? So, this means the coolant stays in the radiator longer and
> lets the heat dissipate more, I take it...
>
> Yes... the higher temperature thermostats open at a higher
temperature.
> No... it does not mean that the coolant stays in the radiator
longer. The duration that the coolant stays in the radiator is a
function of flow rate and not thermostat opening temperature.
>
>
> The lower temperature thermostats open at a lower temperature and
the
> coolant cycles through the engine more often, NOT giving it time to
> dissipate as much, causing the engine to run hotter, right?
>
> Yes... the lower temperature thermostats open at a lower
temperature.
> No... the opening temperature does not change the time the coolant
remains in the radiator (although one could argue that a lower
temperature causes the coolant passages to constrict, reducing
coolant flow... I promise... this would not be a noticeable effect).
>
>
> What temperature thermostat should I get for the 3 core radiator
> combo to get the most out of my cooling system? Keep in mind that I
> live in Havasu (the State's hotspot most of the time - 125 degrees
> isn't uncommon.)
>
> And the answer is.... THE FACTORY TEMPERATURE THERMOSTAT (195
degrees I think).
> Reason? Because the factory changes the air/fuel ratio to the
engine based on temperature... and a lower temperature thermostat
will likely cause your TJ to run richer than it should which, if it
is outside the normal control loop parameters defined in the lookup
tables in the ECU, could cause you problems.
>
> Stick with the factory temperature thermostat and you can't go
wrong.
>
> Joe West
>
>
> TIA,
>
> Dan (AKA BRUZR's Daddy)
> 97 TJ (BRUZR), Locked and Loaded in Lake Havasu City, AZ
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
94265 From: trmn8rjn98 <trmn8rjn98@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:56pm
Subject: [OT] Help cheap car needed
Hi my cousin was badly injured in an accident when his horse fell &
landed on him. As a result he has not been able to work & had to sell
his truck before it got repoed. He is just looking for something he
can get around in. Not worried about looks much & I can & will do
some work on it for him. We are just looking for something that he
can get around in in the $500 range. Please let me know if you have
anything
thanks
John
94266 From: Joe <flexyxj98@m...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:01pm
Subject: Re: Need help with a steering/front end problem.
Mike, I see this everyday....A tera 3T kit is the base kit that does
not come with lower arms......Problem......it WILL wander, due to not
having enough positive caster...I have never been able to get more
than 4.5-5.2 degrees of caster from a 3T kit, even with cams....You
need to have at LEAST 8.5-9.5 degrees caster for proper
driveability....and "Over-steer" is not what you think it is......it
is actually an action that happens when you steer into a corner in a
vehicle and the front end pushes.....BTW....what align shop did the
alignment???? Didnt they tell you that the specs are WAAAAAAAy out
of factory allowances?????
FlexyXJ
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Mike H." <hiett710@y...> wrote:
> I will start out with what I have.
> 02 TJ 4.0 3" tera springs, Stock controll arms.
> Adjustable trac bar from O.R.U. (same brand name as a shock)
> JKS quick discos and everything else in the front end is stock.
> I had a bad trac bar in the front for about 5k miles
> and when I got it alligned I experienced major death wobble so I
> bought the new trac bar.
> Anyhow 3 weeks later I got another alignment because I was having
> oversteer problems BAAAAAD and my alignment was off -.25
> kinda wierd that it was off so quickly with no off roading or
> upgrades except the trac bar.
> Well I'm having the oversteer problem again. (whats oversteer you
> ask) When I move the steering wheel 1 billionth of an inch the
front
> end moves 3 feet. I can hardly keep it in the lane when it's bumpy
> and if I hit a bump in the middle of a turn heaven help the guy
next
> to me on the inside. I have almost written Goodyear on many doors
in
> the last few weeks..
>
> Has anyone experienced this? What did you do to fix it? My Jeep
only
> has 35k Miles on it. I'm thinking that replacing the controll arms
> might help but I'm really not sure.
> Thanks for any info you have,
> Mike H.
>
> hiett710@y...
94267 From: Joe <flexyxj98@m...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:08pm
Subject: Re: [FS] Rims for sale
He just took those from my garbage can.....what a bum...
FlexyXJ
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Norman" <4x4xfun1@c...> wrote:
> I've got (4) factory Jeep wheels for sale that came off my 91
Cherokee
> Sport. They are a 7" rim with, I believe, 5.25" backspacing. They
are in
> great shape with little to no rockrash. Here is a link to a pic:
>
> http://www.rockrats.org/RR/Scripts/Thumb.asp?
W=640&F=175_03111017107.jpg
>
> $50 is my price
>
> I'm at 35av/Union Hills.
>
> Rick
> Got Groceries?
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
94268 From: Joe <flexyxj98@m...>
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:09pm
Subject: Re: Hummer Run...
LOL.....John you were scared with a 15,000 dollar vehicle....:)
FlexyXJ
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "John Rabenius" <jrabenius@c...> wrote:
> --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Dennis" <dannpegg@c...> wrote:
>
>
> I can't believe those pics...The looks
> > on the drivers' faces are so intense...Like they're actually
having
> > to concentrate on what they're doing!
>
> . . . Well, remember . . . they are driving a $60,000+ vehicle. I'd
> be scared too.
>
> John R
> 1999 TJ