Yahoo Messages: 76655-76679 [Archive]

blooddrive

01-07-2004, 09:57 PM

76655-76679

76655 From: tomas2691 <tomasr@a...> <tomasr@a...>
Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 9:31am
Subject: Re: Interesting axle width numbers. Your help appreciated

I changed my rear from 5-on-4.5" to 6-on-5.5". I ordered new axle
shafts because I thought that was appropriate. But I did settle for
redrilling my brake drums and had to deal with the hole alignment.
If anyone wants to see how the holes for these two patterns align, I
can show you.

By the way, Moser told me that they would only redrill axles if there
would be at least 1/8" between holes. And they said they would use
threaded studs instead of press-in studs. I assumed that was to
prevent trying to expand the stud holes in areas where there wasn't
as much surrounding metal.

-Roger

--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Kruize" <skruize@c...> wrote:
> Somebody somewhere just might make one that is thinner. I just felt
that
> if most of the adapter companies don't want to make it then there is
> good reason to believe that even if it exists somewhere I don't want
> one.
>
> :D
>
> Scott K
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Lake [mailto:xjcountry93@m...]
> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 10:27 PM
> To: Jeepers Group
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Interesting axle width numbers. Your help
> appreciated
>
>
> I have never looked into it, but I was under the impression that AA
made
> an adaptor that would change the lug pattern. I guess I know better
> now.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Scott Kruize
> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 7:56 PM
> To: James.Towle@a...; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Interesting axle width numbers. Your help
> appreciated
>
> James,
>
> Stu is exactly 1.5" wider up front and its no big deal. Looks fine.
Once
> I saw that I was convinced that the stronger Dutchman alloy shafts
were
> a better way to go. Factoring the sale of the 4 8.8 shafts the out
of
> pocket price is about the same, $135-160.
>
> Most adapter companies won't make adapters to go from 5 lug to 6
lug.
> They will only do 5 to 5, etc. There is one company that would but
they
> are really thick and I did not like them. Here is a pic of this
style
> but in a different lug pattern.
>
> Scott K
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...> [mailto:James.Towle@a...]
> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 9:53 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Interesting axle width numbers. Your help
> appreciated
>
>
> Scott,
>
> Why not just install adapters on the 8.8? That would bring the 8.8
> width out to where the D44 is and make the lug pattern match. If
you
> were to get some high quality adapters there shouldn't be any
problem
> with them breaking.
>
> --James
>
> --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Kruize" <skruize@c...> wrote:
> > Got the Waggy 44. Here is some interesting numbers I thought I'd
> throw
> > your way. I'd like to compile a database of these and post them to
> the
> > website for future reference.
> > These numbers are wheel mounting surface to wheel mounting
surface.
> >
> > 61.50" TJ D30 axle with the Warn small 5 on 4.5" hub kit.
60.00" TJ
> > stock axle width front and rear 60.75" Waggy 44 axle width
> > 59.25" Ford 8.8
> >
> > Stu runs the small hub kit. His front is now 1.5" wider than the
> rear
> > 44. The Waggy 44 will be 1.5" wider than the 8.8 so you can't do
> much
> > better than that for junkyard swaps :D I've been told that being
> > slightly wider up front allows the rear to track better on the
> trail and
> > street
> >
> > I'm going to get this thing under there and then the next step
will
> be
> > Warn alloys and CTM's. I am going to go ahead and install
Dutchman
> > alloys in the matching 6 on 5.5" pattern into the 8.8. Should be
a
> > pretty stout setup for 37's.
> >
> > Later,
> >
> > Scott K
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
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>
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76656 From: Joe Kearney <Joe-CJ7@j...>
Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 9:34am
Subject: Re: Next Weekend Clean-up IMPORTANT

Thanks for your comments Stu.

I agree. I was not able to make the TM clean up but I am making the
Sycamore Creek clean up. With all of the members that we have we should be
able to get 50 - 70 at these functions with out burdening people too much by
having to go to every clean up.

I think a strong showing is very important to keep these places open.

Joe Kearney
Joe-CJ7@J...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
To: "'Az_Vjc'" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 10:31 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Next Weekend Clean-up IMPORTANT

> We are making progress in establishing ourselves with the land
> management folks and this is yet another chance to help solidify that
> relationship.
>
> Although I can not make the Sycamore cleanup (just as some folks
> couldn't make Table Mesa), I encourage those of you that were not able
> to participate at Table Mesa to lend a hand at Sycamore Creek. Here is
> a chance to make it up and help keep the world spinning in balance. :>)
>
>
> Stu
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nasser [mailto:nasser88@c...]
> Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 10:21 PM
> To: Michael Wixom; RockRats@yahoogroups. Com; Az_Vjc; Hackle
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Next Weekend Clean-up IMPORTANT
> Importance: High
>
> Folks,
>
> Mike and Jim are very correct. We only have 11 members signed up as a
> definite. We need to get some more to join the clean up at Sycamore
> Creek
> area. How about it? There isn't another cleanup scheduled for a while.
> Let's see if we can get at least 50.
>
> There are some important land issues being discussed and decided on
> these
> days, and when we (the OHV community) show our involvement like we did
> at
> Table Mesa, the agencies take us more seriously and count us a credible
> user
> and resource group. That is why they are starting to listen to us, and
> hopefully act in our favor.
>
> It is imperative to have a strong showing at Sycamore. Just
> volunteering
> for a few hours this Saturday will go a long way!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nasser
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Wixom [mailto:h8pvmnt@h...]
> Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 7:10 PM
> To: RockRats@yahoogroups. Com; Az_Vjc; Hackle
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Next Weekend Clean-up IMPORTANT
>
> I would like to reiterate how important this one is, please find some
> time
> to show up for this clean-up. It is very important to the continued use
> of
> this area.
>
> Mike Wixom
> 85 CJ-7
> Member of:
> AZVJC / AZ Dust Devils,
> ASA4WDC, Blue Ribbon Coalition,
> Tread Lightly, Friends of the Rubicon
> United Four Wheel Drive Clubs
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hackle" <hackle@q...>
> To: "RockRats@yahoogroups. Com" <RockRats@yahoogroups.com>; "Az_Vjc"
> <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 1:25 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Next Weekend Clean-up IMPORTANT
>
>
> > I know that we just completed the clean-up at Table Mesa on Sat. but
> we
> > have another one scheduled for next weekend. Unlike Table Mesa where
> we
> > cleaned up mostly shooters trash this area is pretty much a mess by
> OHV
> > users. A trip sign up is available on the web site along with all the
> info
> > required. The Forest Service is thinking about closing this area to
> OHV
> use
> > we need a strong showing to help change there minds. Jim F.
> >
> > "I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member"
> Groucho
> > Marx
> > Member of the original dirty half dozen.
> > http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

76657 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 10:17am
Subject: [TR] Cleanup - Saturday, February 1, 2003 - Reminder

Hello All,

Robert (Roy) Rogers is leading a Cleanup trail run on Saturday, February 1, 2003.

When: 8:00 a.m. - ?????
Where: LOWER SYCAMORE WASH
Rating: 2.0
Length: UNKNOWN
CB Channel: 4

Game &; Fish and Tonto Forest Service is sponsoring this cleanup... at most cleanups we are cleaning "shooting and dumping" sites. Lower Sycamore is mostly OUR OWN. We need to support this clean up and show our support to keep this riding area OPEN TO OHV's. It is most definitely on the

list for CLOSURE if we don't JOIN IN AND HELP THE CAUSE

Game &; Fish are furnishing bags and dumpsters......

See you all there.......... let's show in force IN RED!!

DIRECTIONS: Beeline Hwy north towards Payson. Just past (1/4 mile?)the Saguaro Lake turnoff on your right, take the "turn around" road on your left across the center divider to lower Sycamore Wash.

This trail run is a cleanup effort to help improve our environment and demonstrate our care for the land we use. Read the description for details about where and when. Click on the date below to see the description of the event.

Click Here To Add Your Name to the Sign Up List

Thank You,

- The AzVJC Website

76658 From: onebdjeep <onebdjeep@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 10:35am
Subject: Re: Next Weekend Clean-up IMPORTANT

hey guys! i am going to be out of town this next weekend... possibly, so i
may not be able to make it out there. can i loan some shovels, wheel barrow,
etc to help out? Anything else? i can make 50 or so PB&J sandwiches if that
will help!!

let me know!!

Sean Speer
OneBdJeep (someday!!)
'97 TJ with killer mods to come!!!
(umm... will drink beer for Jeep parts!!!)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Kearney" <Joe-CJ7@j...>
To: "'Az_Vjc'" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>; "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Next Weekend Clean-up IMPORTANT

> Thanks for your comments Stu.
>
> I agree. I was not able to make the TM clean up but I am making the
> Sycamore Creek clean up. With all of the members that we have we should
be
> able to get 50 - 70 at these functions with out burdening people too much
by
> having to go to every clean up.
>
> I think a strong showing is very important to keep these places open.
>
> Joe Kearney
> Joe-CJ7@J...
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
> To: "'Az_Vjc'" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 10:31 AM
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Next Weekend Clean-up IMPORTANT
>
>
> > We are making progress in establishing ourselves with the land
> > management folks and this is yet another chance to help solidify that
> > relationship.
> >
> > Although I can not make the Sycamore cleanup (just as some folks
> > couldn't make Table Mesa), I encourage those of you that were not able
> > to participate at Table Mesa to lend a hand at Sycamore Creek. Here is
> > a chance to make it up and help keep the world spinning in balance. :>)
> >
> >
> > Stu
> >
> > Stu Olson
> > www.stu-offroad.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Nasser [mailto:nasser88@c...]
> > Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 10:21 PM
> > To: Michael Wixom; RockRats@yahoogroups. Com; Az_Vjc; Hackle
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Next Weekend Clean-up IMPORTANT
> > Importance: High
> >
> > Folks,
> >
> > Mike and Jim are very correct. We only have 11 members signed up as a
> > definite. We need to get some more to join the clean up at Sycamore
> > Creek
> > area. How about it? There isn't another cleanup scheduled for a while.
> > Let's see if we can get at least 50.
> >
> > There are some important land issues being discussed and decided on
> > these
> > days, and when we (the OHV community) show our involvement like we did
> > at
> > Table Mesa, the agencies take us more seriously and count us a credible
> > user
> > and resource group. That is why they are starting to listen to us, and
> > hopefully act in our favor.
> >
> > It is imperative to have a strong showing at Sycamore. Just
> > volunteering
> > for a few hours this Saturday will go a long way!
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Nasser
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Michael Wixom [mailto:h8pvmnt@h...]
> > Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 7:10 PM
> > To: RockRats@yahoogroups. Com; Az_Vjc; Hackle
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Next Weekend Clean-up IMPORTANT
> >
> > I would like to reiterate how important this one is, please find some
> > time
> > to show up for this clean-up. It is very important to the continued use
> > of
> > this area.
> >
> > Mike Wixom
> > 85 CJ-7
> > Member of:
> > AZVJC / AZ Dust Devils,
> > ASA4WDC, Blue Ribbon Coalition,
> > Tread Lightly, Friends of the Rubicon
> > United Four Wheel Drive Clubs
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Hackle" <hackle@q...>
> > To: "RockRats@yahoogroups. Com" <RockRats@yahoogroups.com>; "Az_Vjc"
> > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 1:25 PM
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Next Weekend Clean-up IMPORTANT
> >
> >
> > > I know that we just completed the clean-up at Table Mesa on Sat. but
> > we
> > > have another one scheduled for next weekend. Unlike Table Mesa where
> > we
> > > cleaned up mostly shooters trash this area is pretty much a mess by
> > OHV
> > > users. A trip sign up is available on the web site along with all the
> > info
> > > required. The Forest Service is thinking about closing this area to
> > OHV
> > use
> > > we need a strong showing to help change there minds. Jim F.
> > >
> > > "I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member"
> > Groucho
> > > Marx
> > > Member of the original dirty half dozen.
> > > http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

76659 From: Martin Ward <martinida@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 10:54am
Subject: Re: Fwd: National + ESA

Hey a few people getting eaten by a cougar ain't a big deal. Do you know
how many people there are? Way to many IMO!!! Why don't you post
information about the number of people killing people. Better yet, do me/us
a favor and find a different board to post this BULLSH*T. If you don't want
to get attacked by an animal your outta luck. If you live in the wilds you
have to worry about the cougar, if you live in the city you have to worry
about the dirt bag druggie looking for cash and if you live in the suburbs
you have to worry about both. Now lets get back to jeep talk.

Martin
Nice Kitty, Nice Kitty

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Stewart" <landuse@u...>
To: <Recipient List Suppressed:>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 8:28 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Fwd: National + ESA

> >From: JSmit10695@a...
> >Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 18:19:27 EST
> >Subject: National + ESA
> >
> >THE PREDATOR CARD
> >
> >(Note: This fine article continues to shine light on the actions of those
> >that profess to be 'saving' predators, all the while and with malice
> >aforethought, putting people and their children and pets and livestock IN
> >HARMS WAY.)
> >
> >January 6, 2003
> >
> >By Jim Beers
> >
> >jimbeers7@e...
> >
> >In their relentless campaign to destroy the American way of life, the
> >environmentalists and animal rights radicals are steadily throwing new
logs
> >on the fire. One of their favorite ploys is the victimization of
predators.
> >The common sense reality that people in the United States wisely and
> >purposely eliminated dangerous predators from large areas of human
habitation
> >is touted as not only immoral but also somehow bad for "the environment."
> >
> >In the past thirty years we have seen the Federal government, at the
behest
> >of radical organizations, vote-seeking politicians, and career-enhancing
> >bureaucrats, use laws and regulations to force wolves into the upper
Midwest
> >and the West. Likewise grizzly bears have been forcefully expanded
> >throughout the upper Rockies.
> >
> >In the past week the likes of Jane 'living with chimpanzees' Goodall and
a
> >hodgepodge of radicals have called for "protection" and "listing" --
under
> >the Endangered Species Act -- of mountain lions.
> >
> >No doubt millions of urbanites, children, and Animal Planet producers
will
> >send money and ask their Federal Representative to "do something."
> >
> >Mountain lions (or cougar, puma or catamount) are ubiquitous throughout
the
> >Western US and Canadian Rockies south to the tip of South America. They
are
> >historically notorious killers of livestock, pets, and people.
> >
> >When California stopped all management and hunting of cougars a few years
> >ago, the incidence of attacks on people -- from joggers and hikers to
> >homeowners, both deadly and gravely injurious -- increased dramatically.
> >
> >Bighorn sheep in the Sierras were listed as "Endangered" and their
Federal
> >Endangered Species Recovery Plan cited predation by cougars as THE
reason.
> >
> >By the way, the Federal animal damage control people (whose salary all of
us
> >pay) then began "controlling" (i.e., killing) California's cougars which
its'
> >good residents had "saved" only a few short years before. This was
justified
> >to "save" the bighorn sheep.
> >
> >As more and more western urban areas and environmentalists and animal
rights
> >activists have limited cougar hunting, cougar hunting methods, and
hunting
> >areas the cougar numbers in and around towns and cities have increased.
> >
> >There has been a concomitant increase in deadly attacks on everyone from
high
> >school athletes to little children hiking with Church groups.
> >
> >Cougars kill and eat people.
> >
> >They severely injure women stepping out on their deck.
> >
> >They kill pets as well as livestock.
> >
> >The longer they are "protected," the more (like deer in a National Park)
they
> >become bold around people.
> >
> >In this instance however, they don't beg for candy as you drive by --
they
> >kill your pet and eat your child in the backyard.
> >
> >When they kill a person, they drag them off a long way and consume most,
if
> >not all, while covering up the rest.
> >
> >More often than not, finding the evidence of the incident is next to
> >impossible to document (especially today when more and more
> >cougar-hunting dog packs are being put out of business by these same
> >activists and their uneducated and ignorant urban supporters).
> >
> >As a retired wildlife biologist, I will state unequivocally that a lack
of
> >cougars throughout much of the US is good for the "ecosystem" and a
blessing
> >to hundreds of millions who live near or recreate in currently occupied
> >cougar territory WHERE THEY ARE HUNTED and managed to minimize their
dangers
> >and damage to people.
> >
> >The tired propaganda and nostrums to eliminate cougar management and
cougar
> >hunting are as follows:
> >
> >It shocks the sensibilities of Jane Goodall and her activist friends.
These
> >same folks are no doubt equally shocked by hooked fish, trapped muskrats,
> >logged trees, pheasant dinners, circuses, and many other etceteras.
> >
> >It is conducted when young cougars may still need their mother. The fact
> >that cougars have done well for years under such regimes is forgotten.
> >
> >It is "unfair" and not "sporting." This from folks that are committed to
> >eliminating all such "sport."
> >
> >We "don't know enough" about cougars. We never know enough about
anything
> >touted for "listing" or "saving."
> >
> >We don't need to manage them. This from increasingly unethical
biologists in
> >Universities and natural resource agencies. These are the folks who want
to
> >feather their careers if and when these radicals succeed in changing the
> >management of natural resources into the Animal Planet nirvana so beloved
of
> >urban children and advertisers.
> >
> >No one needs to kill a cougar. Remember this one because everything you
do
> >can be characterized this way. These same radical folks, through an
> >all-powerful central government, are ready, willing, and able to write
the
> >laws and regulations to proscribe every phase of your life and your
property
> >rights in just these terms.
> >
> >There is more but you get the point. Cougars are the responsibility of
state
> >governments and should stay that way. If West Virginia wants to have
some
> >around to hunt or run with dogs, their state politicians should answer
for
> >whatever does or does not result. If Idaho wants six cougars in every
> >Township or indeed wants no cougars in certain areas, their state
government
> >will answer to Idaho voters for such policies. In fact, if California
voters
> >want 4 or 5 people killed each year; and a hundred serious maulings each
> >year; unlimited pet losses; constant danger to unattended children; and
> >seriously depleted populations of whatever wild and domestic animals the
> >cougars find tasty then so be it. Only don't expect the rest of the
country
> >to pay for it!
> >
> >Cougars kill people just as do wolves, grizzly bears, and sharks. How
> >formerly intelligent populations of Americans came to accept these silly
and
> >deadly concepts of predators is something I cannot understand. Predators
> >such as these should be managed such that their behavior, their numbers,
and
> >their distribution pose the least threat to human beings of all stripes.
The
> >next time one of these bozos tell you about wearing bells in bear
country, or
> >puffing up or not looking into the eyes of one of these predators poke
them
> >in the eye and explain about big bore handguns and 00 buck shot as better
> >alternatives. When they tell you about how wolves don't kill people,
remind
> >them of the 30 to 40 killed annually in India alone. When they spout
those
> >socialist droppings about you being in the animals habitat and how the
> >government should own the area, tell them about how happy they would be
in
> >China or North Korea where government owns the people instead of the
other
> >way around. When they mention bears tell them about all the hushed up
campers
> >and hikers killed in Montana National Parks in particular. When they say
> >Black bears aren't managed in National Parks tell them that for years
Park
> >managers live trapped black bears in Parks, drove them miles away and
kicked
> >them out on National forests while bear season was open! When they start
> >whining about the "poor cougar" tell them to get a life and worry about
the
> >poor children endangered by such nonsense.
> >
> >Finally, never forget that if this is successful, more land will be off
> >limits to more human activities. Rural residents will have yet another
> >reason to sell out to the government or their surrogates such as the
Nature
> >Conservancy. More land will become devoid of human activity and presence
> >thereby furthering the agenda that would have us all living where they
tell
> >us and only doing what they permit. I don't know about you, but I think
this
> >is worth fighting for.
>
>
> --
> John Stewart
> Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
> Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
> Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com
> Webmaster, Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

76660 From: Martin Ward <martinida@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 10:56am
Subject: Re: Next Weekend Clean-up IMPORTANT

Stu - I'll grab some trash in your name. Martin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
To: "'Az_Vjc'" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 10:31 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Next Weekend Clean-up IMPORTANT

> We are making progress in establishing ourselves with the land
> management folks and this is yet another chance to help solidify that
> relationship.
>
> Although I can not make the Sycamore cleanup (just as some folks
> couldn't make Table Mesa), I encourage those of you that were not able
> to participate at Table Mesa to lend a hand at Sycamore Creek. Here is
> a chance to make it up and help keep the world spinning in balance. :>)
>
>
> Stu
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nasser [mailto:nasser88@c...]
> Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 10:21 PM
> To: Michael Wixom; RockRats@yahoogroups. Com; Az_Vjc; Hackle
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Next Weekend Clean-up IMPORTANT
> Importance: High
>
> Folks,
>
> Mike and Jim are very correct. We only have 11 members signed up as a
> definite. We need to get some more to join the clean up at Sycamore
> Creek
> area. How about it? There isn't another cleanup scheduled for a while.
> Let's see if we can get at least 50.
>
> There are some important land issues being discussed and decided on
> these
> days, and when we (the OHV community) show our involvement like we did
> at
> Table Mesa, the agencies take us more seriously and count us a credible
> user
> and resource group. That is why they are starting to listen to us, and
> hopefully act in our favor.
>
> It is imperative to have a strong showing at Sycamore. Just
> volunteering
> for a few hours this Saturday will go a long way!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nasser
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Wixom [mailto:h8pvmnt@h...]
> Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 7:10 PM
> To: RockRats@yahoogroups. Com; Az_Vjc; Hackle
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Next Weekend Clean-up IMPORTANT
>
> I would like to reiterate how important this one is, please find some
> time
> to show up for this clean-up. It is very important to the continued use
> of
> this area.
>
> Mike Wixom
> 85 CJ-7
> Member of:
> AZVJC / AZ Dust Devils,
> ASA4WDC, Blue Ribbon Coalition,
> Tread Lightly, Friends of the Rubicon
> United Four Wheel Drive Clubs
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hackle" <hackle@q...>
> To: "RockRats@yahoogroups. Com" <RockRats@yahoogroups.com>; "Az_Vjc"
> <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 1:25 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Next Weekend Clean-up IMPORTANT
>
>
> > I know that we just completed the clean-up at Table Mesa on Sat. but
> we
> > have another one scheduled for next weekend. Unlike Table Mesa where
> we
> > cleaned up mostly shooters trash this area is pretty much a mess by
> OHV
> > users. A trip sign up is available on the web site along with all the
> info
> > required. The Forest Service is thinking about closing this area to
> OHV
> use
> > we need a strong showing to help change there minds. Jim F.
> >
> > "I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member"
> Groucho
> > Marx
> > Member of the original dirty half dozen.
> > http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

76661 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 11:10am
Subject: RE: Fwd: National + ESA

Martin....one thing....please:

Do not speak on my behalf to Mr. Stewart. I am more than capable of
doing so myself. (re: your comment about "doing me/us a favor".....)

While Mr. Stewart's post is not Jeep related, it is still relevant to
the issues we are constantly fighting against in regards to the green
folks attempting to shut us down (i.e., if they get "something" on the
endangered species list, then they have their foot in the door to shut
down motorized recreation in the area where the endangered species
live).

Having some of this anecdotal information can certainly help when one
needs to rebut some of the ridiculous ideas they come up with, IMO.

Thanks,

Stu

Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Ward [mailto:martinida@c...]
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 11:55 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; John Stewart
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Fwd: National + ESA

Hey a few people getting eaten by a cougar ain't a big deal. Do you
know
how many people there are? Way to many IMO!!! Why don't you post
information about the number of people killing people. Better yet, do
me/us
a favor and find a different board to post this BULLSH*T. If you don't
want
to get attacked by an animal your outta luck. If you live in the wilds
you
have to worry about the cougar, if you live in the city you have to
worry
about the dirt bag druggie looking for cash and if you live in the
suburbs
you have to worry about both. Now lets get back to jeep talk.

Martin
Nice Kitty, Nice Kitty

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Stewart" <landuse@u...>
To: <Recipient List Suppressed:>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 8:28 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Fwd: National + ESA

> >From: JSmit10695@a...
> >Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 18:19:27 EST
> >Subject: National + ESA
> >
> >THE PREDATOR CARD
> >
> >(Note: This fine article continues to shine light on the actions of
those
> >that profess to be 'saving' predators, all the while and with malice
> >aforethought, putting people and their children and pets and
livestock IN
> >HARMS WAY.)
> >
> >January 6, 2003
> >
> >By Jim Beers
> >
> >jimbeers7@e...
> >
> >In their relentless campaign to destroy the American way of life, the
> >environmentalists and animal rights radicals are steadily throwing
new
logs
> >on the fire. One of their favorite ploys is the victimization of
predators.
> >The common sense reality that people in the United States wisely and
> >purposely eliminated dangerous predators from large areas of human
habitation
> >is touted as not only immoral but also somehow bad for "the
environment."
> >
> >In the past thirty years we have seen the Federal government, at the
behest
> >of radical organizations, vote-seeking politicians, and
career-enhancing
> >bureaucrats, use laws and regulations to force wolves into the upper
Midwest
> >and the West. Likewise grizzly bears have been forcefully expanded
> >throughout the upper Rockies.
> >
> >In the past week the likes of Jane 'living with chimpanzees' Goodall
and
a
> >hodgepodge of radicals have called for "protection" and "listing" --
under
> >the Endangered Species Act -- of mountain lions.
> >
> >No doubt millions of urbanites, children, and Animal Planet producers
will
> >send money and ask their Federal Representative to "do something."
> >
> >Mountain lions (or cougar, puma or catamount) are ubiquitous
throughout
the
> >Western US and Canadian Rockies south to the tip of South America.
They
are
> >historically notorious killers of livestock, pets, and people.
> >
> >When California stopped all management and hunting of cougars a few
years
> >ago, the incidence of attacks on people -- from joggers and hikers to
> >homeowners, both deadly and gravely injurious -- increased
dramatically.
> >
> >Bighorn sheep in the Sierras were listed as "Endangered" and their
Federal
> >Endangered Species Recovery Plan cited predation by cougars as THE
reason.
> >
> >By the way, the Federal animal damage control people (whose salary
all of
us
> >pay) then began "controlling" (i.e., killing) California's cougars
which
its'
> >good residents had "saved" only a few short years before. This was
justified
> >to "save" the bighorn sheep.
> >
> >As more and more western urban areas and environmentalists and animal
rights
> >activists have limited cougar hunting, cougar hunting methods, and
hunting
> >areas the cougar numbers in and around towns and cities have
increased.
> >
> >There has been a concomitant increase in deadly attacks on everyone
from
high
> >school athletes to little children hiking with Church groups.
> >
> >Cougars kill and eat people.
> >
> >They severely injure women stepping out on their deck.
> >
> >They kill pets as well as livestock.
> >
> >The longer they are "protected," the more (like deer in a National
Park)
they
> >become bold around people.
> >
> >In this instance however, they don't beg for candy as you drive by --
they
> >kill your pet and eat your child in the backyard.
> >
> >When they kill a person, they drag them off a long way and consume
most,
if
> >not all, while covering up the rest.
> >
> >More often than not, finding the evidence of the incident is next to
> >impossible to document (especially today when more and more
> >cougar-hunting dog packs are being put out of business by these same
> >activists and their uneducated and ignorant urban supporters).
> >
> >As a retired wildlife biologist, I will state unequivocally that a
lack
of
> >cougars throughout much of the US is good for the "ecosystem" and a
blessing
> >to hundreds of millions who live near or recreate in currently
occupied
> >cougar territory WHERE THEY ARE HUNTED and managed to minimize their
dangers
> >and damage to people.
> >
> >The tired propaganda and nostrums to eliminate cougar management and
cougar
> >hunting are as follows:
> >
> >It shocks the sensibilities of Jane Goodall and her activist friends.
These
> >same folks are no doubt equally shocked by hooked fish, trapped
muskrats,
> >logged trees, pheasant dinners, circuses, and many other etceteras.
> >
> >It is conducted when young cougars may still need their mother. The
fact
> >that cougars have done well for years under such regimes is
forgotten.
> >
> >It is "unfair" and not "sporting." This from folks that are
committed to
> >eliminating all such "sport."
> >
> >We "don't know enough" about cougars. We never know enough about
anything
> >touted for "listing" or "saving."
> >
> >We don't need to manage them. This from increasingly unethical
biologists in
> >Universities and natural resource agencies. These are the folks who
want
to
> >feather their careers if and when these radicals succeed in changing
the
> >management of natural resources into the Animal Planet nirvana so
beloved
of
> >urban children and advertisers.
> >
> >No one needs to kill a cougar. Remember this one because everything
you
do
> >can be characterized this way. These same radical folks, through an
> >all-powerful central government, are ready, willing, and able to
write
the
> >laws and regulations to proscribe every phase of your life and your
property
> >rights in just these terms.
> >
> >There is more but you get the point. Cougars are the responsibility
of
state
> >governments and should stay that way. If West Virginia wants to have
some
> >around to hunt or run with dogs, their state politicians should
answer
for
> >whatever does or does not result. If Idaho wants six cougars in
every
> >Township or indeed wants no cougars in certain areas, their state
government
> >will answer to Idaho voters for such policies. In fact, if
California
voters
> >want 4 or 5 people killed each year; and a hundred serious maulings
each
> >year; unlimited pet losses; constant danger to unattended children;
and
> >seriously depleted populations of whatever wild and domestic animals
the
> >cougars find tasty then so be it. Only don't expect the rest of the
country
> >to pay for it!
> >
> >Cougars kill people just as do wolves, grizzly bears, and sharks.
How
> >formerly intelligent populations of Americans came to accept these
silly
and
> >deadly concepts of predators is something I cannot understand.
Predators
> >such as these should be managed such that their behavior, their
numbers,
and
> >their distribution pose the least threat to human beings of all
stripes.
The
> >next time one of these bozos tell you about wearing bells in bear
country, or
> >puffing up or not looking into the eyes of one of these predators
poke
them
> >in the eye and explain about big bore handguns and 00 buck shot as
better
> >alternatives. When they tell you about how wolves don't kill people,
remind
> >them of the 30 to 40 killed annually in India alone. When they spout
those
> >socialist droppings about you being in the animals habitat and how
the
> >government should own the area, tell them about how happy they would
be
in
> >China or North Korea where government owns the people instead of the
other
> >way around. When they mention bears tell them about all the hushed up
campers
> >and hikers killed in Montana National Parks in particular. When they
say
> >Black bears aren't managed in National Parks tell them that for years
Park
> >managers live trapped black bears in Parks, drove them miles away and
kicked
> >them out on National forests while bear season was open! When they
start
> >whining about the "poor cougar" tell them to get a life and worry
about
the
> >poor children endangered by such nonsense.
> >
> >Finally, never forget that if this is successful, more land will be
off
> >limits to more human activities. Rural residents will have yet
another
> >reason to sell out to the government or their surrogates such as the
Nature
> >Conservancy. More land will become devoid of human activity and
presence
> >thereby furthering the agenda that would have us all living where
they
tell
> >us and only doing what they permit. I don't know about you, but I
think
this
> >is worth fighting for.
>
>
> --
> John Stewart
> Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
> Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
> Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com
> Webmaster, Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

76662 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 11:11am
Subject: RE: Next Weekend Clean-up IMPORTANT

Thanks....I appreciate that. I picked up a couple of extra bags this
past Saturday for a few others that were unable to make the TM cleanup.

It all makes the world go round.

Stu

Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Ward [mailto:martinida@c...]
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 11:57 AM
To: 'Az_Vjc'; Stu Olson
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Next Weekend Clean-up IMPORTANT

Stu - I'll grab some trash in your name. Martin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
To: "'Az_Vjc'" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 10:31 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Next Weekend Clean-up IMPORTANT

> We are making progress in establishing ourselves with the land
> management folks and this is yet another chance to help solidify that
> relationship.
>
> Although I can not make the Sycamore cleanup (just as some folks
> couldn't make Table Mesa), I encourage those of you that were not able
> to participate at Table Mesa to lend a hand at Sycamore Creek. Here
is
> a chance to make it up and help keep the world spinning in balance.
:>)
>
>
> Stu
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nasser [mailto:nasser88@c...]
> Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 10:21 PM
> To: Michael Wixom; RockRats@yahoogroups. Com; Az_Vjc; Hackle
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Next Weekend Clean-up IMPORTANT
> Importance: High
>
> Folks,
>
> Mike and Jim are very correct. We only have 11 members signed up as a
> definite. We need to get some more to join the clean up at Sycamore
> Creek
> area. How about it? There isn't another cleanup scheduled for a
while.
> Let's see if we can get at least 50.
>
> There are some important land issues being discussed and decided on
> these
> days, and when we (the OHV community) show our involvement like we did
> at
> Table Mesa, the agencies take us more seriously and count us a
credible
> user
> and resource group. That is why they are starting to listen to us,
and
> hopefully act in our favor.
>
> It is imperative to have a strong showing at Sycamore. Just
> volunteering
> for a few hours this Saturday will go a long way!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nasser
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Wixom [mailto:h8pvmnt@h...]
> Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 7:10 PM
> To: RockRats@yahoogroups. Com; Az_Vjc; Hackle
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Next Weekend Clean-up IMPORTANT
>
> I would like to reiterate how important this one is, please find some
> time
> to show up for this clean-up. It is very important to the continued
use
> of
> this area.
>
> Mike Wixom
> 85 CJ-7
> Member of:
> AZVJC / AZ Dust Devils,
> ASA4WDC, Blue Ribbon Coalition,
> Tread Lightly, Friends of the Rubicon
> United Four Wheel Drive Clubs
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hackle" <hackle@q...>
> To: "RockRats@yahoogroups. Com" <RockRats@yahoogroups.com>; "Az_Vjc"
> <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 1:25 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Next Weekend Clean-up IMPORTANT
>
>
> > I know that we just completed the clean-up at Table Mesa on Sat. but
> we
> > have another one scheduled for next weekend. Unlike Table Mesa where
> we
> > cleaned up mostly shooters trash this area is pretty much a mess by
> OHV
> > users. A trip sign up is available on the web site along with all
the
> info
> > required. The Forest Service is thinking about closing this area to
> OHV
> use
> > we need a strong showing to help change there minds. Jim F.
> >
> > "I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member"
> Groucho
> > Marx
> > Member of the original dirty half dozen.
> > http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

76663 From: tomas2691 <tomasr@a...> <tomasr@a...>
Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 11:22am
Subject: Re: quick question about teraflex shackles

If you're currently running lift shackles, I seriously doubt the
Teraflex shackles would give you "another 1 to 2 inches of lift".
Also, I'd think the reason to run those shackles would be increased
flex - not increased lift. (I'm assuming you're talking about the
Teraflex Revolver shackles.)

-Roger

--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "intertwingled" <intertwingled@q...>
wrote:
>
>
> I have a 94 YJ with a 4 inch suspension lift.
> I am thinking about getting teraflex shackles
> (I currently have heavy duty lifting shackles.)
> I've been told that teraflex shackles will
> give me another 1 to 2 inches of lift and I
> wanted to get second opinions. Also, any
> advice, stories, opinions about, experiences
> with teraflex shackles would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Tony
>
>
> --
> even the safest course is fraught with peril

76664 From: misfittom <misfittom@p...> <misfittom@p...>
Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 11:27am
Subject: Newbie

Hey everyone, Just moved to Phoenix from Denver. New to the site,
and I don't really know a lot of people in the area or the 4wheeling
community here. Just wanted to say hi, and I look forward to meeting
some of you in the near future:)

76665 From: Joe Kearney <Joe-CJ7@j...>
Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 11:28am
Subject: Re: Newbie

Welcome!

What part of the Valley and what do you drive?

Joe Kearney
Joe-CJ7@J...

----- Original Message -----
From: <misfittom@p...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 12:27 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Newbie

> Hey everyone, Just moved to Phoenix from Denver. New to the site,
> and I don't really know a lot of people in the area or the 4wheeling
> community here. Just wanted to say hi, and I look forward to meeting
> some of you in the near future:)
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

76666 From: Trujillo, Jeff <jeff.trujillo@m...>
Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 11:11am
Subject: RE: Newbie

Welcome to AZVJC. Give us some insight on what you have JEEP wise. There is
plenty of wheelin in AZ for all levels from the mild to the Wild. Hope to
see you on some trails.

Jeffrey A. Trujillo
Field Service Representative
MD Helicopters, Inc.
jeff.trujillo@m...
Voice:(480)346-6249
Fax:(480)346-6813

-----Original Message-----
From: misfittom <misfittom@p...>
[mailto:misfittom@p...]
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 12:28 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Newbie

Hey everyone, Just moved to Phoenix from Denver. New to the site,
and I don't really know a lot of people in the area or the 4wheeling
community here. Just wanted to say hi, and I look forward to meeting
some of you in the near future:)

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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76667 From: Martin Ward <martinida@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 11:38am
Subject: Re: Fwd: National + ESA

I was just banging on the keyboard I meant no offense. I know everyone here
can and frequently does speak for themselves. I retract my use of the "us"
in my statement and will kindly take my leave good Sir.

Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
To: "'Martin Ward'" <martinida@c...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>; "'John
Stewart'" <landuse@u...>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 12:10 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Fwd: National + ESA

> Martin....one thing....please:
>
> Do not speak on my behalf to Mr. Stewart. I am more than capable of
> doing so myself. (re: your comment about "doing me/us a favor".....)
>
> While Mr. Stewart's post is not Jeep related, it is still relevant to
> the issues we are constantly fighting against in regards to the green
> folks attempting to shut us down (i.e., if they get "something" on the
> endangered species list, then they have their foot in the door to shut
> down motorized recreation in the area where the endangered species
> live).
>
> Having some of this anecdotal information can certainly help when one
> needs to rebut some of the ridiculous ideas they come up with, IMO.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Stu
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Ward [mailto:martinida@c...]
> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 11:55 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; John Stewart
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Fwd: National + ESA
>
> Hey a few people getting eaten by a cougar ain't a big deal. Do you
> know
> how many people there are? Way to many IMO!!! Why don't you post
> information about the number of people killing people. Better yet, do
> me/us
> a favor and find a different board to post this BULLSH*T. If you don't
> want
> to get attacked by an animal your outta luck. If you live in the wilds
> you
> have to worry about the cougar, if you live in the city you have to
> worry
> about the dirt bag druggie looking for cash and if you live in the
> suburbs
> you have to worry about both. Now lets get back to jeep talk.
>
> Martin
> Nice Kitty, Nice Kitty
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Stewart" <landuse@u...>
> To: <Recipient List Suppressed:>
> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 8:28 AM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Fwd: National + ESA
>
>
> > >From: JSmit10695@a...
> > >Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 18:19:27 EST
> > >Subject: National + ESA
> > >
> > >THE PREDATOR CARD
> > >
> > >(Note: This fine article continues to shine light on the actions of
> those
> > >that profess to be 'saving' predators, all the while and with malice
> > >aforethought, putting people and their children and pets and
> livestock IN
> > >HARMS WAY.)
> > >
> > >January 6, 2003
> > >
> > >By Jim Beers
> > >
> > >jimbeers7@e...
> > >
> > >In their relentless campaign to destroy the American way of life, the
> > >environmentalists and animal rights radicals are steadily throwing
> new
> logs
> > >on the fire. One of their favorite ploys is the victimization of
> predators.
> > >The common sense reality that people in the United States wisely and
> > >purposely eliminated dangerous predators from large areas of human
> habitation
> > >is touted as not only immoral but also somehow bad for "the
> environment."
> > >
> > >In the past thirty years we have seen the Federal government, at the
> behest
> > >of radical organizations, vote-seeking politicians, and
> career-enhancing
> > >bureaucrats, use laws and regulations to force wolves into the upper
> Midwest
> > >and the West. Likewise grizzly bears have been forcefully expanded
> > >throughout the upper Rockies.
> > >
> > >In the past week the likes of Jane 'living with chimpanzees' Goodall
> and
> a
> > >hodgepodge of radicals have called for "protection" and "listing" --
> under
> > >the Endangered Species Act -- of mountain lions.
> > >
> > >No doubt millions of urbanites, children, and Animal Planet producers
> will
> > >send money and ask their Federal Representative to "do something."
> > >
> > >Mountain lions (or cougar, puma or catamount) are ubiquitous
> throughout
> the
> > >Western US and Canadian Rockies south to the tip of South America.
> They
> are
> > >historically notorious killers of livestock, pets, and people.
> > >
> > >When California stopped all management and hunting of cougars a few
> years
> > >ago, the incidence of attacks on people -- from joggers and hikers to
> > >homeowners, both deadly and gravely injurious -- increased
> dramatically.
> > >
> > >Bighorn sheep in the Sierras were listed as "Endangered" and their
> Federal
> > >Endangered Species Recovery Plan cited predation by cougars as THE
> reason.
> > >
> > >By the way, the Federal animal damage control people (whose salary
> all of
> us
> > >pay) then began "controlling" (i.e., killing) California's cougars
> which
> its'
> > >good residents had "saved" only a few short years before. This was
> justified
> > >to "save" the bighorn sheep.
> > >
> > >As more and more western urban areas and environmentalists and animal
> rights
> > >activists have limited cougar hunting, cougar hunting methods, and
> hunting
> > >areas the cougar numbers in and around towns and cities have
> increased.
> > >
> > >There has been a concomitant increase in deadly attacks on everyone
> from
> high
> > >school athletes to little children hiking with Church groups.
> > >
> > >Cougars kill and eat people.
> > >
> > >They severely injure women stepping out on their deck.
> > >
> > >They kill pets as well as livestock.
> > >
> > >The longer they are "protected," the more (like deer in a National
> Park)
> they
> > >become bold around people.
> > >
> > >In this instance however, they don't beg for candy as you drive by --
> they
> > >kill your pet and eat your child in the backyard.
> > >
> > >When they kill a person, they drag them off a long way and consume
> most,
> if
> > >not all, while covering up the rest.
> > >
> > >More often than not, finding the evidence of the incident is next to
> > >impossible to document (especially today when more and more
> > >cougar-hunting dog packs are being put out of business by these same
> > >activists and their uneducated and ignorant urban supporters).
> > >
> > >As a retired wildlife biologist, I will state unequivocally that a
> lack
> of
> > >cougars throughout much of the US is good for the "ecosystem" and a
> blessing
> > >to hundreds of millions who live near or recreate in currently
> occupied
> > >cougar territory WHERE THEY ARE HUNTED and managed to minimize their
> dangers
> > >and damage to people.
> > >
> > >The tired propaganda and nostrums to eliminate cougar management and
> cougar
> > >hunting are as follows:
> > >
> > >It shocks the sensibilities of Jane Goodall and her activist friends.
> These
> > >same folks are no doubt equally shocked by hooked fish, trapped
> muskrats,
> > >logged trees, pheasant dinners, circuses, and many other etceteras.
> > >
> > >It is conducted when young cougars may still need their mother. The
> fact
> > >that cougars have done well for years under such regimes is
> forgotten.
> > >
> > >It is "unfair" and not "sporting." This from folks that are
> committed to
> > >eliminating all such "sport."
> > >
> > >We "don't know enough" about cougars. We never know enough about
> anything
> > >touted for "listing" or "saving."
> > >
> > >We don't need to manage them. This from increasingly unethical
> biologists in
> > >Universities and natural resource agencies. These are the folks who
> want
> to
> > >feather their careers if and when these radicals succeed in changing
> the
> > >management of natural resources into the Animal Planet nirvana so
> beloved
> of
> > >urban children and advertisers.
> > >
> > >No one needs to kill a cougar. Remember this one because everything
> you
> do
> > >can be characterized this way. These same radical folks, through an
> > >all-powerful central government, are ready, willing, and able to
> write
> the
> > >laws and regulations to proscribe every phase of your life and your
> property
> > >rights in just these terms.
> > >
> > >There is more but you get the point. Cougars are the responsibility
> of
> state
> > >governments and should stay that way. If West Virginia wants to have
> some
> > >around to hunt or run with dogs, their state politicians should
> answer
> for
> > >whatever does or does not result. If Idaho wants six cougars in
> every
> > >Township or indeed wants no cougars in certain areas, their state
> government
> > >will answer to Idaho voters for such policies. In fact, if
> California
> voters
> > >want 4 or 5 people killed each year; and a hundred serious maulings
> each
> > >year; unlimited pet losses; constant danger to unattended children;
> and
> > >seriously depleted populations of whatever wild and domestic animals
> the
> > >cougars find tasty then so be it. Only don't expect the rest of the
> country
> > >to pay for it!
> > >
> > >Cougars kill people just as do wolves, grizzly bears, and sharks.
> How
> > >formerly intelligent populations of Americans came to accept these
> silly
> and
> > >deadly concepts of predators is something I cannot understand.
> Predators
> > >such as these should be managed such that their behavior, their
> numbers,
> and
> > >their distribution pose the least threat to human beings of all
> stripes.
> The
> > >next time one of these bozos tell you about wearing bells in bear
> country, or
> > >puffing up or not looking into the eyes of one of these predators
> poke
> them
> > >in the eye and explain about big bore handguns and 00 buck shot as
> better
> > >alternatives. When they tell you about how wolves don't kill people,
> remind
> > >them of the 30 to 40 killed annually in India alone. When they spout
> those
> > >socialist droppings about you being in the animals habitat and how
> the
> > >government should own the area, tell them about how happy they would
> be
> in
> > >China or North Korea where government owns the people instead of the
> other
> > >way around. When they mention bears tell them about all the hushed up
> campers
> > >and hikers killed in Montana National Parks in particular. When they
> say
> > >Black bears aren't managed in National Parks tell them that for years
> Park
> > >managers live trapped black bears in Parks, drove them miles away and
> kicked
> > >them out on National forests while bear season was open! When they
> start
> > >whining about the "poor cougar" tell them to get a life and worry
> about
> the
> > >poor children endangered by such nonsense.
> > >
> > >Finally, never forget that if this is successful, more land will be
> off
> > >limits to more human activities. Rural residents will have yet
> another
> > >reason to sell out to the government or their surrogates such as the
> Nature
> > >Conservancy. More land will become devoid of human activity and
> presence
> > >thereby furthering the agenda that would have us all living where
> they
> tell
> > >us and only doing what they permit. I don't know about you, but I
> think
> this
> > >is worth fighting for.
> >
> >
> > --
> > John Stewart
> > Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
> > Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
> > Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com
> > Webmaster, Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

76668 From: Martin Ward <martinida@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 11:41am
Subject: Re: Newbie

Welcome to Phoenix, a warm hello and a friendly Jeep wave to ya.

Martin
97' TJ
----- Original Message -----
From: <misfittom@p...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 12:27 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Newbie

> Hey everyone, Just moved to Phoenix from Denver. New to the site,
> and I don't really know a lot of people in the area or the 4wheeling
> community here. Just wanted to say hi, and I look forward to meeting
> some of you in the near future:)
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

76669 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 11:45am
Subject: RE: Fwd: National + ESA

Martin....sorry for my response sounding a bit harsh. It was not meant
to be quite the way it probably sounded. :(

I hope you can still pick up a bag of trash for me. ;>)

Stu

Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Ward [mailto:martinida@c...]
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 12:38 PM
To: Stu Olson; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; 'John Stewart'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Fwd: National + ESA

I was just banging on the keyboard I meant no offense. I know everyone
here
can and frequently does speak for themselves. I retract my use of the
"us"
in my statement and will kindly take my leave good Sir.

Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
To: "'Martin Ward'" <martinida@c...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>;
"'John
Stewart'" <landuse@u...>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 12:10 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Fwd: National + ESA

> Martin....one thing....please:
>
> Do not speak on my behalf to Mr. Stewart. I am more than capable of
> doing so myself. (re: your comment about "doing me/us a favor".....)
>
> While Mr. Stewart's post is not Jeep related, it is still relevant to
> the issues we are constantly fighting against in regards to the green
> folks attempting to shut us down (i.e., if they get "something" on the
> endangered species list, then they have their foot in the door to shut
> down motorized recreation in the area where the endangered species
> live).
>
> Having some of this anecdotal information can certainly help when one
> needs to rebut some of the ridiculous ideas they come up with, IMO.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Stu
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Ward [mailto:martinida@c...]
> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 11:55 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; John Stewart
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Fwd: National + ESA
>
> Hey a few people getting eaten by a cougar ain't a big deal. Do you
> know
> how many people there are? Way to many IMO!!! Why don't you post
> information about the number of people killing people. Better yet, do
> me/us
> a favor and find a different board to post this BULLSH*T. If you
don't
> want
> to get attacked by an animal your outta luck. If you live in the
wilds
> you
> have to worry about the cougar, if you live in the city you have to
> worry
> about the dirt bag druggie looking for cash and if you live in the
> suburbs
> you have to worry about both. Now lets get back to jeep talk.
>
> Martin
> Nice Kitty, Nice Kitty
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Stewart" <landuse@u...>
> To: <Recipient List Suppressed:>
> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 8:28 AM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Fwd: National + ESA
>
>
> > >From: JSmit10695@a...
> > >Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 18:19:27 EST
> > >Subject: National + ESA
> > >
> > >THE PREDATOR CARD
> > >
> > >(Note: This fine article continues to shine light on the actions of
> those
> > >that profess to be 'saving' predators, all the while and with
malice
> > >aforethought, putting people and their children and pets and
> livestock IN
> > >HARMS WAY.)
> > >
> > >January 6, 2003
> > >
> > >By Jim Beers
> > >
> > >jimbeers7@e...
> > >
> > >In their relentless campaign to destroy the American way of life,
the
> > >environmentalists and animal rights radicals are steadily throwing
> new
> logs
> > >on the fire. One of their favorite ploys is the victimization of
> predators.
> > >The common sense reality that people in the United States wisely
and
> > >purposely eliminated dangerous predators from large areas of human
> habitation
> > >is touted as not only immoral but also somehow bad for "the
> environment."
> > >
> > >In the past thirty years we have seen the Federal government, at
the
> behest
> > >of radical organizations, vote-seeking politicians, and
> career-enhancing
> > >bureaucrats, use laws and regulations to force wolves into the
upper
> Midwest
> > >and the West. Likewise grizzly bears have been forcefully expanded
> > >throughout the upper Rockies.
> > >
> > >In the past week the likes of Jane 'living with chimpanzees'
Goodall
> and
> a
> > >hodgepodge of radicals have called for "protection" and "listing"
--
> under
> > >the Endangered Species Act -- of mountain lions.
> > >
> > >No doubt millions of urbanites, children, and Animal Planet
producers
> will
> > >send money and ask their Federal Representative to "do something."
> > >
> > >Mountain lions (or cougar, puma or catamount) are ubiquitous
> throughout
> the
> > >Western US and Canadian Rockies south to the tip of South America.
> They
> are
> > >historically notorious killers of livestock, pets, and people.
> > >
> > >When California stopped all management and hunting of cougars a few
> years
> > >ago, the incidence of attacks on people -- from joggers and hikers
to
> > >homeowners, both deadly and gravely injurious -- increased
> dramatically.
> > >
> > >Bighorn sheep in the Sierras were listed as "Endangered" and their
> Federal
> > >Endangered Species Recovery Plan cited predation by cougars as THE
> reason.
> > >
> > >By the way, the Federal animal damage control people (whose salary
> all of
> us
> > >pay) then began "controlling" (i.e., killing) California's cougars
> which
> its'
> > >good residents had "saved" only a few short years before. This was
> justified
> > >to "save" the bighorn sheep.
> > >
> > >As more and more western urban areas and environmentalists and
animal
> rights
> > >activists have limited cougar hunting, cougar hunting methods, and
> hunting
> > >areas the cougar numbers in and around towns and cities have
> increased.
> > >
> > >There has been a concomitant increase in deadly attacks on everyone
> from
> high
> > >school athletes to little children hiking with Church groups.
> > >
> > >Cougars kill and eat people.
> > >
> > >They severely injure women stepping out on their deck.
> > >
> > >They kill pets as well as livestock.
> > >
> > >The longer they are "protected," the more (like deer in a National
> Park)
> they
> > >become bold around people.
> > >
> > >In this instance however, they don't beg for candy as you drive by
--
> they
> > >kill your pet and eat your child in the backyard.
> > >
> > >When they kill a person, they drag them off a long way and consume
> most,
> if
> > >not all, while covering up the rest.
> > >
> > >More often than not, finding the evidence of the incident is next
to
> > >impossible to document (especially today when more and more
> > >cougar-hunting dog packs are being put out of business by these
same
> > >activists and their uneducated and ignorant urban supporters).
> > >
> > >As a retired wildlife biologist, I will state unequivocally that a
> lack
> of
> > >cougars throughout much of the US is good for the "ecosystem" and a
> blessing
> > >to hundreds of millions who live near or recreate in currently
> occupied
> > >cougar territory WHERE THEY ARE HUNTED and managed to minimize
their
> dangers
> > >and damage to people.
> > >
> > >The tired propaganda and nostrums to eliminate cougar management
and
> cougar
> > >hunting are as follows:
> > >
> > >It shocks the sensibilities of Jane Goodall and her activist
friends.
> These
> > >same folks are no doubt equally shocked by hooked fish, trapped
> muskrats,
> > >logged trees, pheasant dinners, circuses, and many other etceteras.
> > >
> > >It is conducted when young cougars may still need their mother.
The
> fact
> > >that cougars have done well for years under such regimes is
> forgotten.
> > >
> > >It is "unfair" and not "sporting." This from folks that are
> committed to
> > >eliminating all such "sport."
> > >
> > >We "don't know enough" about cougars. We never know enough about
> anything
> > >touted for "listing" or "saving."
> > >
> > >We don't need to manage them. This from increasingly unethical
> biologists in
> > >Universities and natural resource agencies. These are the folks
who
> want
> to
> > >feather their careers if and when these radicals succeed in
changing
> the
> > >management of natural resources into the Animal Planet nirvana so
> beloved
> of
> > >urban children and advertisers.
> > >
> > >No one needs to kill a cougar. Remember this one because
everything
> you
> do
> > >can be characterized this way. These same radical folks, through
an
> > >all-powerful central government, are ready, willing, and able to
> write
> the
> > >laws and regulations to proscribe every phase of your life and your
> property
> > >rights in just these terms.
> > >
> > >There is more but you get the point. Cougars are the
responsibility
> of
> state
> > >governments and should stay that way. If West Virginia wants to
have
> some
> > >around to hunt or run with dogs, their state politicians should
> answer
> for
> > >whatever does or does not result. If Idaho wants six cougars in
> every
> > >Township or indeed wants no cougars in certain areas, their state
> government
> > >will answer to Idaho voters for such policies. In fact, if
> California
> voters
> > >want 4 or 5 people killed each year; and a hundred serious maulings
> each
> > >year; unlimited pet losses; constant danger to unattended children;
> and
> > >seriously depleted populations of whatever wild and domestic
animals
> the
> > >cougars find tasty then so be it. Only don't expect the rest of
the
> country
> > >to pay for it!
> > >
> > >Cougars kill people just as do wolves, grizzly bears, and sharks.
> How
> > >formerly intelligent populations of Americans came to accept these
> silly
> and
> > >deadly concepts of predators is something I cannot understand.
> Predators
> > >such as these should be managed such that their behavior, their
> numbers,
> and
> > >their distribution pose the least threat to human beings of all
> stripes.
> The
> > >next time one of these bozos tell you about wearing bells in bear
> country, or
> > >puffing up or not looking into the eyes of one of these predators
> poke
> them
> > >in the eye and explain about big bore handguns and 00 buck shot as
> better
> > >alternatives. When they tell you about how wolves don't kill
people,
> remind
> > >them of the 30 to 40 killed annually in India alone. When they
spout
> those
> > >socialist droppings about you being in the animals habitat and how
> the
> > >government should own the area, tell them about how happy they
would
> be
> in
> > >China or North Korea where government owns the people instead of
the
> other
> > >way around. When they mention bears tell them about all the hushed
up
> campers
> > >and hikers killed in Montana National Parks in particular. When
they
> say
> > >Black bears aren't managed in National Parks tell them that for
years
> Park
> > >managers live trapped black bears in Parks, drove them miles away
and
> kicked
> > >them out on National forests while bear season was open! When they
> start
> > >whining about the "poor cougar" tell them to get a life and worry
> about
> the
> > >poor children endangered by such nonsense.
> > >
> > >Finally, never forget that if this is successful, more land will be
> off
> > >limits to more human activities. Rural residents will have yet
> another
> > >reason to sell out to the government or their surrogates such as
the
> Nature
> > >Conservancy. More land will become devoid of human activity and
> presence
> > >thereby furthering the agenda that would have us all living where
> they
> tell
> > >us and only doing what they permit. I don't know about you, but I
> think
> this
> > >is worth fighting for.
> >
> >
> > --
> > John Stewart
> > Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
> > Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
> > Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com
> > Webmaster, Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

76670 From: steven.campbell <steven.campbell@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 0:18pm
Subject: Re: Newbie

Welcome to AZ! Hope to see yo on the trail.

Steven Campbell

----- Original Message -----
From: <misfittom@p...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 12:27 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Newbie

> Hey everyone, Just moved to Phoenix from Denver. New to the site,
> and I don't really know a lot of people in the area or the 4wheeling
> community here. Just wanted to say hi, and I look forward to meeting
> some of you in the near future:)
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

76671 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 0:35pm
Subject: [FS] JACK RUSSEL PUPPIES

Price:

Contact:

SCOTT MCMILLAN

76672 From: onebdjeep <onebdjeep@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 0:43pm
Subject: Re: Newbie

Heya newbie! Don't let the newbie title tie ya down... most of these guys at
the VJC are damn good folk! If ya come across one who is being a prick...
just give 'em the finger and ignore them... they'll get flamed by someone in
good time or they're just having a bad day and they'll come back around!

anyhow!! welcome and hope to see ya on the trails!

Sean Speer
OneBdJeep (someday!!)
'97 TJ with killer mods to come!!!
(umm... will drink beer for Jeep parts!!!)

----- Original Message -----
From: <misfittom@p...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 12:27 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Newbie

> Hey everyone, Just moved to Phoenix from Denver. New to the site,
> and I don't really know a lot of people in the area or the 4wheeling
> community here. Just wanted to say hi, and I look forward to meeting
> some of you in the near future:)
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

76673 From: <AZICE626@a...>
Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 7:46am
Subject: Axle Question

Hi all....I was just wondering.....does a D60 diff cover look just like a D44 cover except bigger (i.e., taller & wider).....if not....do D44's come with different size diff covers???....thanx...tj

76674 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 0:54pm
Subject: [FS] Aftermarket Roof Rack and rear Leafs

Price: ?

Contact: Jeff 480-213-1976

I need price for aftermarket (not homebrew) roof rack for a 92 XJ(my brothers). He seen my new (homebrew I just picked up) and wants one now. Also for my 96 XJ a set of good rear leafs. My (second) set is flat "again". Don't have the money to buy another set (saving for rock sliders). Or a combination of other leafs that could swap in. Thanks

Jeffrey Trujillo

76675 From: john93yj <john6612@c...> <john6612@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 1:02pm
Subject: Looking for work and some trail info

Hi
I know I shouldn't be asking this, but does anybody out know of any
company's or people that are hiring for Commercial Electricians, or
cable or sattelite installers I am pretty much at the end of my rope
here, and I am getting desprate for work
On the subject of jeeps and 4 wheeling, what is the deal with the
mining operation out on reymert rd just east of Gonzales pass in
Florence. You used to be able to drive through there, now there is a
gate, and they bulldozed another road that led into there. Does
anyone know of another entrance to get in that area without
trespassing on there property.

76676 From: <AZICE626@a...>
Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 8:09am
Subject: Re: Axle Question

disregard this question.....did some web research and discovered that instead of a D44 rear axle in my scout it is in fact a D60.....thanx to Simon at 4 wheelers for his response.....btw....the scout rolling frame is still for sale....D60 Rear....D44 Front with disk brakes....both fully trussed.....tj

76677 From: BADAZXJ XJArizona <BadAZXJ@m...>
Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 1:20pm
Subject: Re: Axle Question

thats a pleasant surprise...wish I could find out my 8.25 rear was a
d60...hmmm wishful thinking :)

>From: AZICE626@a...
>To: AZICE626@a..., AZ_VJC@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Axle Question
>Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:09:10 EST
>
>disregard this question.....did some web research and discovered that
>instead
>of a D44 rear axle in my scout it is in fact a D60.....thanx to Simon at 4
>wheelers for his response.....btw....the scout rolling frame is still for
>sale....D60 Rear....D44 Front with disk brakes....both fully trussed.....tj

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76678 From: Mike Baney <jeepin_in_az@y...>
Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 1:23pm
Subject: WANTED - Light tan soft door tops...

I have the top and 3 windows for a light tan top, and need the window
surronds in light tan...

Anyone have some they want to sell??

Thanks,

Mike Baney

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76679 From: Trujillo, Jeff <jeff.trujillo@m...>
Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 1:04pm
Subject: RE: Axle Question

Yea me too, oh ya my front and rear are D60's and I have a 4:1 Transfer
case, and that $1 turned out to be a $1000 bill in my wallet. LOL

Jeffrey A. Trujillo
Field Service Representative
MD Helicopters, Inc.
jeff.trujillo@m...
Voice:(480)346-6249
Fax:(480)346-6813

-----Original Message-----
From: BADAZXJ XJArizona [mailto:BadAZXJ@m...]
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 2:20 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Axle Question

thats a pleasant surprise...wish I could find out my 8.25 rear was a
d60...hmmm wishful thinking :)

>From: AZICE626@a...
>To: AZICE626@a..., AZ_VJC@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Axle Question
>Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:09:10 EST
>
>disregard this question.....did some web research and discovered that
>instead
>of a D44 rear axle in my scout it is in fact a D60.....thanx to Simon at 4
>wheelers for his response.....btw....the scout rolling frame is still for
>sale....D60 Rear....D44 Front with disk brakes....both fully trussed.....tj

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http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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