Yahoo Messages: 75977-76001

[blooddrive]

75977-76001

75977 From: Mitch Woodward <mitchwoodward@h...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 8:00am
Subject: Re: Bending steel?? Is it for me??


Bending steel is not for you if you buy the hydraulic jack bender from Harbor Freight, they suck. If you're willing to spend the money for a jd2 or m-tech bender then it might be. A good bender with a couple of dies will be in the $700+ range. A decent welder will set you back $400+. The tubing notcher will be another $100+. All of these tools are worth the money IMHO, but only if you use them frequently. If you're just doing a few things on your own jeep, them letting the tools sit there, you should probably just go see Hunter.

Mitch
----- Original Message -----
From: onebdjeep
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 7:26 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Bending steel?? Is it for me??


Ok, I have looked at Harbor Freight and it appears that they have some pretty decent prices on metal bending equipment. The question is... Is it really worth the money and time to fabricate your own equiptment? I think that it would be pretty nice to say "Hey look at what I did!!" like ole Michael did. I am sure he will get all the compliments in the world on a trail run "Hey Mike... nice rack!!!" and he will beam with pride.

So how hard was it really Mike? Was it worth it? I have already started to save the money for the bending equip. What about making bumpers and tire carriers and stuff? What about a new cage? Where the hell do ya get the metal to do this?

Thx!

Sean (just too damn cheap to buy the goods!)


Sean Speer
OneBdJeep (someday!!)
'97 TJ with killer mods to come!!!
(umm... will drink beer for Jeep parts!!!)




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75978 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 8:07am
Subject: CTM U-Joints Installed this weekend


Hi Gang,

From the time I went to 35" tires and the AtlasII transfer case... I have
had difficulty keeping U-Joints intact. I've broken 3 U-joints in the past
4 years, and every time' the broken joint has been kind enough to take out
the axle yoke <grin>. The primary reason I break u-joints is that I get
sloppy and apply torque with the front wheels turned, which, while it may be
possible to do in a stock or mostly stock rig... the torque created by the
combination of the AtlasII and the 35" tires (now 37") is extremely
unforgiving of sloppy technique.

With the new addition of an NV4500 which replaced my ailing AX-25, my crawl
ratio (and torque) just went up again... meaning that my setup is even less
forgiving of sloppy driving.

In an attempt to strengthen my u-joints, I installed CTM u-joints this
weekend. For some reason, I expected the install to be difficult, but
really, it was only very slightly more difficult than a standard 297x
u-joint. The CTM instructions SUCK and they provide no pictures (pictures
are always good for people like me who don't like to read <grin>). One KEY
point is that you need to have GOOD 90 degree snap ring pliers; mine were
absolute CRAP and what little difficulties I had were all associated with
poor quality snap ring pliers.

Because of the tight tolerance of the CTM joints... they have no forgiveness
when it comes to bent axle yoke ears... if the joint is difficult to put in
and does not operate smoothly; you have a bent ear on the yoke... period.
Measure the distance between the ears at the base and at the tip and if you
have more than a 1/32" difference; you'll find that the joint won't operate
smoothly. I ended up having to press one of my ears back because it was
bent about 1/16" out of true.

Once installed, I greased the CTM joints with synthetic grease... it was
EXTREMELY difficult to force grease into the joints with the needle
fitting... it took lots of effort, but I finally got grease to come out at
the base of every u-joint cap (the CTM joints have a grease fitting on each
cap).

About the only drawback I can see to the CTM joints is the cost; $150 each.
I purchased them from 4 wheeler's and they give a good discount but compared
to a 297x u-joint; these things are gold. This being said; a u-joint
failure costs me an axle each time it happens... so if I can prevent a
failure and save an axle; I'm ahead... which makes these joints perfect for
me. Combined with a lifetime "you break it we replace it" warranty from CTM
and 4 wheeler's supply; these will be the last u-joints I will ever buy.
For those who have broken u-joints take out expensive axles... you may want
to consider the CTM u-joint.

Kind Regards,

Joe West


75979 From: Richard Logan <rlogan@d...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 8:13am
Subject: for sale faux Black bead Locks


5 on 5/12 10 in wide almst new a little rash around outer rim my champion beads arrived they are being stored in my garage Price $80.00 I live in Gilbert call 888-839-3613 wxt 115 day or 480-892-0423 eve

Rick Logan


75980 From: Sandee McCullen <mccullen@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 8:02am
Subject: RE: Re: Trail blockage, Rock stackers


John,
I'm still having a problem with your thoughts.......... #1 is good. #2 is
true. #3 doesn't make sense. You did say you "will go out and help stack
the rocks so that more people from all skill levels can use the trails.
That is the only way we will be able to keep them open.... Access for ALL".
This idiology is WRONG. Mother Nature has made the trails different
levels........... not the recreationists.

All Todd was trying to make clear was it was wrong to "rock a trail to make
it easier as an overall rating". I don't care what you say John, this is
WRONG and I don't believe land agencies outside Arizona believe this is
acceptable. FYI this Florence Junction area is under a planning partnership
incompassing all land agencies, ASARCO, private miners, ranchers, National
Guard, recreationists....... both motorized and non-motorized AND CBD
members, Wilderness Alliance etc. Everyone is very much involved in this
particular area being mantained as a multi-use recreational area while also
protecting the scenic and resources in the area. No one from CBD or
Wilderness Alliance has ever even intimated we "make all trails accessable
to all".

I believe you're saying to "stack" or "unstack" rocks is wrong............
how can you have it both ways unless the rocks being "unstacked" were there
naturally.......... that is not being done. Or if by "stacking" rocks one
is making it like Mother Nature made it............. that is also not being
done. The rock stacking Todd is talking about is being done simply to make
a trail easier on an overall rating. He is not talking about stacking a
couple of rocks to "HELP", he's talking about dozens and hundreds of rocks
to PAVE. Are you truly saying, as your first post states, "it's ok to pave
a trail"??

I cannot believe you truly feel ALL trails must be accessable by ALL
recreationists to enable us to keep our trails open. Yes, some trails will
become "groomed" (easier) due to use and that is ok so long as it's not a
result of paving or manually changing the layout of the trail with rocks,
ramps, and by-passes. Re your comment about Sledgehammer.......... Each
time we go out to Johnson Valley we spend hours "UNstacking" rocks that
fellow wheelers have stacked to make it easier for them but they did NOT
have the courtesy to unstack and leave the trail as they FOUND IT. Has the
trail truly gotten easier or is it that the vehicles and driver experience
today is much more advanced than it was when Sledgehammer was opened 9-10
years ago????

Bottom line: Leave the trail as you found it.
If you need a FEW rocks to help............ stack but then UNstack !
If you need to PAVE or make by-passes............ turn around, you don't
belong on that trail !

Many of our recreationists need to review "trail courtesy" and "Tread
Lightly" a bit more throughly.

Sandee

Sandee

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Stewart [mailto:landuse@u...]
> Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 11:41 PM
> To: Gary_Pugsley <gary_pugsley@h...>; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Trail blockage, Rock stackers
>
>
> You are misunderstanding a few points.
>
> 1 - I believe vehicles should be prepared for the trail.
>
> 2 - I do not believe EVERY trail should be hardcore extreme.
>
> 3 - I am not saying "pave" the trails. I am saying that if you
> insist on extreme trails and only extreme trails, you will have not
> trails.
>
> My opening statement was "If you are saying that the ONLY people on
> the trails are the ones that want the extreme trail, you are no
> different than the GAG that wants no one but them on foot on the
> trail."
>
> That is my point of concern. If you are going to only allow a
> certain class of modified rig on the trail, you will have a
> diminishing number of people and less of a chance to keep the trails
> open.
>
> Any stacking (or unstacking) of rocks is going to lead to problems.
> That is the central point around the Little Sluice on the Rubicon.
> Somebody felt is was too easy; therefore they took it upon themselves
> to make it harder, to keep the unmodified rigs out of their play
> area, and dumped some large rocks in the trail..
>
> This is the attitude that I am disagreeing with. In this case, did
> someone feel it was too hard and decide to make it easy? So, they
> fill in a few holes. Now, Todd goes around to various trails
> unstacking rocks. Both actions are going to lead to problems. Just
> as making a bypass around a tough spot will lead to problems.
>
> Central to this issue is the act of modifying trail; whether to make
> them harder or easier. Both are actions that will draw the attention
> of the land manager and lead to environmental considerations for
> closing trails. There is specific guidance within the BLM manual
> (and the Forest Service manual) dealing with trail construction and
> maintenance.
>
> And, yes I do disagree with the attitude that you have the right to
> modify a trail because you think it should be harder. I also
> disagree with modifying the trail to make it easier. You should be
> prepared.
>
> As you are from Arizona, you should be familiar with the Skye Island
> Alliance. Check out their Road Ripper Manual. They are making
> trails impassible.
>
>
> At 5:00 AM +0000 1/20/03, Gary_Pugsley <gary_pugsley@h...> wrote:
> >WOW. This guy is the Environmental Affairs Director for UFWDA?
> >Where did they get him, The Sierra Club? Makes me wonder what the
> >UFWDA's stance on paving trails, so my parents can take their buick
> >on it, is. If it is anything like Mr. Stewart's, we are all
> >screwed. If newbies (like myself) all listened to him, we would lose
> >access to all our trails pretty damn quick.
> >
> >Like Jim from Tucson said, I have a stock TJ. That's why I did not
> >know what trail this waterfall was on when the damage was shown to
> >me. I go where I have the tools to go, and save the other trails for
> >more properly equipped rigs.
> >
> >Did he really just tell us that we should "pave" all the trails?
> >Do all the associations he is so proud to be affiliated with (the
> >ones under his name in every post) know that this is his way
> >of "protecting" our right to run trails on public land? Don't we
> >have a responsibility to let these groups know what he is advocating,
> >so they can decide if he really is the right person for the jobs?
> >
> >John, Maybe we all misunderstood. Maybe you were being sarcastic.
> >Maybe you just weren't thinking. Maybe, like Stu said, someone
> >hacked your account. If so, please explain yourself. If this is
> >truly your belief, please, go away. You will quickly do more harm
> >than you could ever imagine. With "friends" like you, who needs the
> >greenies? You will have us all climbing speed bumps at the mall in a
> >year.
> >
> >
> >Gary
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> I will take you to task on the central issue you are advocating:
> >>
> > > If you are saying that the ONLY people on the trails are the ones
> >> that want the extreme trail, you are no different than the GAG that
> > > wants no one but them on foot on the trail.
> >>
> >> If it is a trail on PUBLIC LAND and it is a recognized trail,
> >making
> >> the trail impassible except for a modified rig is a sure sign to
> >get
> >> the trail closed.
> >>
> >> I agree that people with stock vehicles have no business on many of
> >> the trails. By the same token, if you are going to limit access to
> >> special class of rigs, you are asking for a trail closure,
> >especially
> >> if a case of bodily injury or death occurs.
> >>
> >> BLM is not going to keep a trail open if it is cited as a
> >liability.
> >> Okay, now start the argument about how people need to have their
> >own
> >> insurance, yada, yada, yada and they should be responsible, yada,
> >> yada, yada..
> >>
> >> Making a trail difficult has caused a major problem with the Little
> >> Sluice on the Rubicon.
> >>
> >> Okay, you want extreme trails? Join the Rockcrawler groups and
> >have
> >> at it on a course. Keep in mind that a course can be set up and
> >> removed. Trails are no different, they can be removed and will be
> >> remove when they become a liability.
> >>
> >> You need to remember that access to trails on PUBLIC LANDS needs to
> >> be available to the PUBLIC. If you are going to advocate in land
> >> management plans that trails be kept for extreme use, you are
> >playing
> >> into the GAGs hand. The argument becomes a losing battle because
> >the
> >> BLM is not going to keep trails for a few (elite CAPABILITY) at the
> >> expense of many.
> >>
> >> I have used the argument about the number of 4x4 recreationists
> >that
> >> are desiring access to trails and trying to say that the numbers
> >> demand that trails be kept open as opposed to the limited number of
> >> hikers that would otherwise have the area to themselves.
> >>
> >> Now, you want to take the set of potential trail users and limit
> >that
> >> to the few who want extreme trails. Sorry, I will go out and help
> >> stack the rocks so that more people from all skill levels can use
> >the
> >> trails. That is the only way we will be able to keep them open.
> >> Access for ALL.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> John Stewart
> >> Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
> >> Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
> >> Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com
> >> Webmaster, Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> --
> John Stewart
> Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
> Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
> Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com
> Webmaster, Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


75981 From: Joe Kearney <Joe-CJ7@j...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 8:13am
Subject: OT Getting rid of old rocks and dirt


I have a lot of old rocks and dirt from my back yard that I would like to get rid of. I am currently planning on taking it to the dump but I already have the back of my Jeep full and I know I have 2-3 more loads full. My options:
a. Take the first one to the dump and use my free one for the month, then take one every month
b. Take this first one to the dump and then take the rest during this month and pay. (this one is the one my Wife wants because I have already waited long enough with the rocks and dirt in a pile in my back yard and she is tired of looking at it)
c. This is my question to everybody Does any landscaping companies take this kind of 50/50 mix rocks and dirt

And I should also state this is landscaping rocks not just desert rocks.

Thanks and sorry for the off topic post.


Joe Kearney
Joe-CJ7@JRKearney.com






75982 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 8:19am
Subject: RE: Re: Trail blockage, Rock stackers


John,

No....I do not believe myself nor anyone that rebutted your post
misunderstood anything. You managed to read Todd's post and started
with some assumptions which got you off on tangent.

Todd never once mentioned that every trail should be extreme. He did
state, however, that he and friends spent a significant portion of a
morning unstacking a trail. The key word is UNSTACKING. There was NO
mention of actions where he took an easy trail and made it more
difficult.

Put another way....here in Arizona, we use the word UNSTACKING to
indicate we are removing the pile of rocks put at an obstacle by someone
who wasn't capable of getting over the obstacle. Just to clarify things
and eliminate all confusion, we don't go up and down the picnic trails,
digging holes and rolling in boulders to make them more challenging.

I still hope you can find the person who hacked your e-mail login and
sent that ridiculous message.

Kind regards,

Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com



-----Original Message-----
From: John Stewart [mailto:landuse@u...]
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 11:41 PM
To: Gary_Pugsley <gary_pugsley@h...>; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Trail blockage, Rock stackers

You are misunderstanding a few points.

1 - I believe vehicles should be prepared for the trail.

2 - I do not believe EVERY trail should be hardcore extreme.

3 - I am not saying "pave" the trails. I am saying that if you
insist on extreme trails and only extreme trails, you will have not
trails.

My opening statement was "If you are saying that the ONLY people on
the trails are the ones that want the extreme trail, you are no
different than the GAG that wants no one but them on foot on the
trail."

That is my point of concern. If you are going to only allow a
certain class of modified rig on the trail, you will have a
diminishing number of people and less of a chance to keep the trails
open.

Any stacking (or unstacking) of rocks is going to lead to problems.
That is the central point around the Little Sluice on the Rubicon.
Somebody felt is was too easy; therefore they took it upon themselves
to make it harder, to keep the unmodified rigs out of their play
area, and dumped some large rocks in the trail..

This is the attitude that I am disagreeing with. In this case, did
someone feel it was too hard and decide to make it easy? So, they
fill in a few holes. Now, Todd goes around to various trails
unstacking rocks. Both actions are going to lead to problems. Just
as making a bypass around a tough spot will lead to problems.

Central to this issue is the act of modifying trail; whether to make
them harder or easier. Both are actions that will draw the attention
of the land manager and lead to environmental considerations for
closing trails. There is specific guidance within the BLM manual
(and the Forest Service manual) dealing with trail construction and
maintenance.

And, yes I do disagree with the attitude that you have the right to
modify a trail because you think it should be harder. I also
disagree with modifying the trail to make it easier. You should be
prepared.

As you are from Arizona, you should be familiar with the Skye Island
Alliance. Check out their Road Ripper Manual. They are making
trails impassible.


At 5:00 AM +0000 1/20/03, Gary_Pugsley <gary_pugsley@h...> wrote:
>WOW. This guy is the Environmental Affairs Director for UFWDA?
>Where did they get him, The Sierra Club? Makes me wonder what the
>UFWDA's stance on paving trails, so my parents can take their buick
>on it, is. If it is anything like Mr. Stewart's, we are all
>screwed. If newbies (like myself) all listened to him, we would lose
>access to all our trails pretty damn quick.
>
>Like Jim from Tucson said, I have a stock TJ. That's why I did not
>know what trail this waterfall was on when the damage was shown to
>me. I go where I have the tools to go, and save the other trails for
>more properly equipped rigs.
>
>Did he really just tell us that we should "pave" all the trails?
>Do all the associations he is so proud to be affiliated with (the
>ones under his name in every post) know that this is his way
>of "protecting" our right to run trails on public land? Don't we
>have a responsibility to let these groups know what he is advocating,
>so they can decide if he really is the right person for the jobs?
>
>John, Maybe we all misunderstood. Maybe you were being sarcastic.
>Maybe you just weren't thinking. Maybe, like Stu said, someone
>hacked your account. If so, please explain yourself. If this is
>truly your belief, please, go away. You will quickly do more harm
>than you could ever imagine. With "friends" like you, who needs the
>greenies? You will have us all climbing speed bumps at the mall in a
>year.
>
>
>Gary
>
>>
>>
>> I will take you to task on the central issue you are advocating:
>>
> > If you are saying that the ONLY people on the trails are the ones
>> that want the extreme trail, you are no different than the GAG that
> > wants no one but them on foot on the trail.
>>
>> If it is a trail on PUBLIC LAND and it is a recognized trail,
>making
>> the trail impassible except for a modified rig is a sure sign to
>get
>> the trail closed.
>>
>> I agree that people with stock vehicles have no business on many of
>> the trails. By the same token, if you are going to limit access to
>> special class of rigs, you are asking for a trail closure,
>especially
>> if a case of bodily injury or death occurs.
>>
>> BLM is not going to keep a trail open if it is cited as a
>liability.
>> Okay, now start the argument about how people need to have their
>own
>> insurance, yada, yada, yada and they should be responsible, yada,
>> yada, yada..
>>
>> Making a trail difficult has caused a major problem with the Little
>> Sluice on the Rubicon.
>>
>> Okay, you want extreme trails? Join the Rockcrawler groups and
>have
>> at it on a course. Keep in mind that a course can be set up and
>> removed. Trails are no different, they can be removed and will be
>> remove when they become a liability.
>>
>> You need to remember that access to trails on PUBLIC LANDS needs to
>> be available to the PUBLIC. If you are going to advocate in land
>> management plans that trails be kept for extreme use, you are
>playing
>> into the GAGs hand. The argument becomes a losing battle because
>the
>> BLM is not going to keep trails for a few (elite CAPABILITY) at the
>> expense of many.
>>
>> I have used the argument about the number of 4x4 recreationists
>that
>> are desiring access to trails and trying to say that the numbers
>> demand that trails be kept open as opposed to the limited number of
>> hikers that would otherwise have the area to themselves.
>>
>> Now, you want to take the set of potential trail users and limit
>that
>> to the few who want extreme trails. Sorry, I will go out and help
>> stack the rocks so that more people from all skill levels can use
>the
>> trails. That is the only way we will be able to keep them open.
>> Access for ALL.
>>
>>
>> --
>> John Stewart
>> Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
>> Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
>> Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com
>> Webmaster, Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


--
John Stewart
Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com
Webmaster, Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


75983 From: TOYS BY TROY, llc. <TOYSBYTROY@C...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 8:28am
Subject: Re: Trail blockage, Rock stackers


Todd, We just ran bad medicine over X-mas the rock you moved is this not the same thing as rock stacking? We all ran the water fall with out stacking or winching. Which rock did you move. The big one on top? Everyone in our group went left of it and over it. I think rock stacking is ok, but when your done tear it down for the next person. Troy----- Original Message -----
From: TODD MCCULLEN
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 12:38 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Trail blockage, Rock stackers


Just need to add my 2 cents, I agree with Sandee 100%
Myself and some buddies went out yesterday to play and practice for the upcoming competition, and the day ended up being a work day. We started off on lower woodpecker, and found all the good spots ramped with rocks. We spent the first hour unstacking everything we could find. After that we headed over to bad medicine to check out the waterfall, we decided to do upper Ajax on the way. This ended up in a major derocking of the trail, and it could use more. We spent 2 hours just removing rocks from the few hard spots on this trail.
We did axle alley, and highway to hell a couple weeks ago and did the same thing. Heck axle alley was so paved it took us about five minutes to get to the first waterfall, when this trail was new it took a couple hours to get this far. This is an example of how the tough trails are being paved by people & rigs that did not belong there.
The last waterfall on Bad Medicine is now passable, we managed to maneuver the rocks down to the bottom of the waterfall. It is not easy, so the people that worry about breakage or damage DO NOT DO THE TRAIL.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! do a trail that you are capable of without ruining the trail for the ones that like the extreme challenge.
I am sick and tired of every time I go out wheeling, I spend half the day UNSTACKING ROCKS. We do put winches on our rigs for a reason. If you cant not drive the obstacle without building ramps, use your WINCH.
I could go on forever about this so I will stop now, GET THE POINT.

Todd

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



75984 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 8:32am
Subject: a call to arms


Well, I think you could call it that.



I want to emphasize the importance of this cleanup! Many of us use the Table Mesa trails to support our Jeep addiction. Without these trails, we would be significantly impacted as far as quality trails within a short drive time from the valley.



So please&.set aside a couple of hours this coming Saturday and help out at Table Mesa. I am extending a personal invitation to the folks that ran Tin Can Alley with me just this past Saturday. So the rest of you dont feel left out, Ill extend the invite to anyone Ive ever ran a trail with. And for those of you that havent shared a trail with me, please come out and introduce yourself so we arent strangers any longer, OK?



The point is, we need to make a strong showing of support and we need to help clean up the area. As they say, many hands make light work.



Lets blow the land management folks away and overwhelm them with our help!



Thanks and see you on Saturday!



Stu



Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com

-----Original Message-----
From: AzVJC Website [mailto:azvjc@azvjc.org]
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 3:25 PM
To: AzVJC
Subject: [az_vjc] [TR] Cleanup - Saturday, January 25, 2003 - Reminder



Hello All,

Robert (Roy) Rogers is leading a Cleanup trail run on Saturday, January 25, 2003.

When: Meet at 9 AM
Where: West side of Table Mesa exit beyond end of pavement.
Rating: 2.0
Length: unknown
CB Channel: 4

Organized by the Phoenix Four Whelers in cooperation with the Arizona State Land Department (ASLD), the Lake Pleasant Regional Recreation Area (LPRRA), and the Bureau of Land Management (BLM).



The ASLD will provide dumpsters and trash bags, the LPRRA will provida a truck to haul away tires, and the Phoenix Four Wheelers will provide beverages.



any questions contact Ron Karlinsky (623-374-9443)

This trail run is a cleanup effort to help improve our environment and demonstrate our care for the land we use. Read the description for details about where and when. Click on the date below to see the description of the event.

Click Here To Add Your Name to the Sign Up List

Thank You,

- The AzVJC Website


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.





75985 From: Joe Kearney <Joe-CJ7@j...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 8:35am
Subject: Re: Trail blockage, Rock stackers


Troy,
There were 2 main rocks that were not "stacked" because if you can stack those 2 then you are a bigger man then I could ever think of being. But there were however a lot of "little" rocks that were placed in the spot that used to be the hole before the waterfall. The rock at the top was not effected by any of this.

I hope that helps.

Joe Kearney
Joe-CJ7@JRKearney.com




----- Original Message -----
From: TOYS BY TROY, llc.
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Trail blockage, Rock stackers


Todd, We just ran bad medicine over X-mas the rock you moved is this not the same thing as rock stacking? We all ran the water fall with out stacking or winching. Which rock did you move. The big one on top? Everyone in our group went left of it and over it. I think rock stacking is ok, but when your done tear it down for the next person. Troy----- Original Message -----
From: TODD MCCULLEN
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 12:38 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Trail blockage, Rock stackers


Just need to add my 2 cents, I agree with Sandee 100%
Myself and some buddies went out yesterday to play and practice for the upcoming competition, and the day ended up being a work day. We started off on lower woodpecker, and found all the good spots ramped with rocks. We spent the first hour unstacking everything we could find. After that we headed over to bad medicine to check out the waterfall, we decided to do upper Ajax on the way. This ended up in a major derocking of the trail, and it could use more. We spent 2 hours just removing rocks from the few hard spots on this trail.
We did axle alley, and highway to hell a couple weeks ago and did the same thing. Heck axle alley was so paved it took us about five minutes to get to the first waterfall, when this trail was new it took a couple hours to get this far. This is an example of how the tough trails are being paved by people & rigs that did not belong there.
The last waterfall on Bad Medicine is now passable, we managed to maneuver the rocks down to the bottom of the waterfall. It is not easy, so the people that worry about breakage or damage DO NOT DO THE TRAIL.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! do a trail that you are capable of without ruining the trail for the ones that like the extreme challenge.
I am sick and tired of every time I go out wheeling, I spend half the day UNSTACKING ROCKS. We do put winches on our rigs for a reason. If you cant not drive the obstacle without building ramps, use your WINCH.
I could go on forever about this so I will stop now, GET THE POINT.

Todd

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75986 From: <AZICE626@a...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 3:39am
Subject: Re: Bending steel?? Is it for me??


I found this on the JU board a few days ago.....its a great, easy to understand site for learning how to bend......kind of a "Bending 101".....tj gill

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/bendin_tube/index.html






75987 From: Chris <my1stjeep@e...> <my1stjeep@e...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 9:26am
Subject: Re: Trail blockage, Rock stackers


You can't be serious. All sports have different levels of
competition for all skill levels. So should we change the olympics
to give slower runners a head start? Should we spot the Arizona
Cardinals points before every game so they have a slim chance instead
of no chance of winning? They don't make hiking trails easier for al
skill levels, you have to work up to it. They don't alter the course
of the rivers to make it easier for rafters or kayakers so why alter
trails?

These trails were established as hard trails (they were not altered
to be impassable as you suggested) and should stay that way, not be
altered to make a stock vehicle run it. Some day I hope to run these
hard trails, but right now my rig is not ready and for some of them I
am not sure I am ready so I go and watch others. That is tread
lightly. If for some reason you take a line and get into a situation
you can't drive out of without running over a bush, or chipping away
at a rock, stacking a rock is the least destructive, then stack a
rock, get through and remove it.

As for trails getting easier by nature you are correct, but that is
out of our control and the land managers so I am not sure of your
point. Keep in mind it can also make trails harder.

I hope you just read the original post wrong and jumped in late in
the process or did not have some information that you now have,
because your original post makes no sense.

Chris
--------------------------------------------------------------------


--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, John Stewart <landuse@u...> wrote:
> At 12:38 PM -0700 1/19/03, TODD MCCULLEN wrote:
> >Just need to add my 2 cents, I agree with Sandee 100%
> > Myself and some buddies went out yesterday to play and
practice
> >for the upcoming competition, and the day ended up being a work
day.
> >We started off on lower woodpecker, and found all the good spots
> >ramped with rocks. We spent the first hour unstacking everything
we
> >could find. After that we headed over to bad medicine to check out
> >the waterfall, we decided to do upper Ajax on the way. This ended
up
> >in a major derocking of the trail, and it could use more. We spent
2
> >hours just removing rocks from the few hard spots on this trail.
> >We did axle alley, and highway to hell a couple weeks ago and did
> >the same thing. Heck axle alley was so paved it took us about five
> >minutes to get to the first waterfall, when this trail was new it
> >took a couple hours to get this far. This is an example of how the
> >tough trails are being paved by people & rigs that did not belong
> >there.
> >The last waterfall on Bad Medicine is now passable, we managed to
> >maneuver the rocks down to the bottom of the waterfall. It is not
> >easy, so the people that worry about breakage or damage DO NOT DO
> >THE TRAIL.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! do a trail that you are capable of
> >without ruining the trail for the ones that like the extreme
> >challenge.
> >I am sick and tired of every time I go out wheeling, I spend half
> >the day UNSTACKING ROCKS. We do put winches on our rigs for a
> >reason. If you cant not drive the obstacle without building ramps,
> >use your WINCH.
> >I could go on forever about this so I will stop now, GET THE POINT.
> >
> >Todd
> >
> >
>
>
> I will take you to task on the central issue you are advocating:
>
> If you are saying that the ONLY people on the trails are the ones
> that want the extreme trail, you are no different than the GAG that
> wants no one but them on foot on the trail.
>
> If it is a trail on PUBLIC LAND and it is a recognized trail,
making
> the trail impassible except for a modified rig is a sure sign to
get
> the trail closed.
>
> I agree that people with stock vehicles have no business on many of
> the trails. By the same token, if you are going to limit access to
> special class of rigs, you are asking for a trail closure,
especially
> if a case of bodily injury or death occurs.
>
> BLM is not going to keep a trail open if it is cited as a
liability.
> Okay, now start the argument about how people need to have their
own
> insurance, yada, yada, yada and they should be responsible, yada,
> yada, yada..
>
> Making a trail difficult has caused a major problem with the Little
> Sluice on the Rubicon.
>
> Okay, you want extreme trails? Join the Rockcrawler groups and
have
> at it on a course. Keep in mind that a course can be set up and
> removed. Trails are no different, they can be removed and will be
> remove when they become a liability.
>
> You need to remember that access to trails on PUBLIC LANDS needs to
> be available to the PUBLIC. If you are going to advocate in land
> management plans that trails be kept for extreme use, you are
playing
> into the GAGs hand. The argument becomes a losing battle because
the
> BLM is not going to keep trails for a few (elite CAPABILITY) at the
> expense of many.
>
> I have used the argument about the number of 4x4 recreationists
that
> are desiring access to trails and trying to say that the numbers
> demand that trails be kept open as opposed to the limited number of
> hikers that would otherwise have the area to themselves.
>
> Now, you want to take the set of potential trail users and limit
that
> to the few who want extreme trails. Sorry, I will go out and help
> stack the rocks so that more people from all skill levels can use
the
> trails. That is the only way we will be able to keep them open.
> Access for ALL.
>
>
> --
> John Stewart
> Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
> Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
> Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com
> Webmaster, Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net


75988 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 9:49am
Subject: RE: CTM U-Joints Installed this weekend


Well Joe, looks like you joined the CTM club. Way to go.

I have experienced difficulties installing conventional u-joints into a
yoke that was out of tolerance by as little as .020". As 1/32" is about
.031", I can certainly see why this was a problem. Welcome to the world
of tight tolerances. :>) As for the snap ring pliers, it seems that
any time snap rings are used, a good set of pliers is paramount to easy
success. I recall the postings from folks doing SYEs and their comments
about not having a good pair of snap ring pliers.

I spent this past Thanksgiving with Jack, owner of CTM Racing, at
Johnson Valley on Sledge Hammer. He is quite the guy and really does
love this sport. If you should have any questions or problems with your
joints, I know he will want to talk with you first hand. I'll tell him
his directions SUCK. LOL

Stu

Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 9:07 AM
To: Azvjc (E-mail)
Subject: [az_vjc] CTM U-Joints Installed this weekend

Hi Gang,

From the time I went to 35" tires and the AtlasII transfer case... I
have
had difficulty keeping U-Joints intact. I've broken 3 U-joints in the
past
4 years, and every time' the broken joint has been kind enough to take
out
the axle yoke <grin>. The primary reason I break u-joints is that I get
sloppy and apply torque with the front wheels turned, which, while it
may be
possible to do in a stock or mostly stock rig... the torque created by
the
combination of the AtlasII and the 35" tires (now 37") is extremely
unforgiving of sloppy technique.

With the new addition of an NV4500 which replaced my ailing AX-25, my
crawl
ratio (and torque) just went up again... meaning that my setup is even
less
forgiving of sloppy driving.

In an attempt to strengthen my u-joints, I installed CTM u-joints this
weekend. For some reason, I expected the install to be difficult, but
really, it was only very slightly more difficult than a standard 297x
u-joint. The CTM instructions SUCK and they provide no pictures
(pictures
are always good for people like me who don't like to read <grin>). One
KEY
point is that you need to have GOOD 90 degree snap ring pliers; mine
were
absolute CRAP and what little difficulties I had were all associated
with
poor quality snap ring pliers.

Because of the tight tolerance of the CTM joints... they have no
forgiveness
when it comes to bent axle yoke ears... if the joint is difficult to put
in
and does not operate smoothly; you have a bent ear on the yoke...
period.
Measure the distance between the ears at the base and at the tip and if
you
have more than a 1/32" difference; you'll find that the joint won't
operate
smoothly. I ended up having to press one of my ears back because it was
bent about 1/16" out of true.

Once installed, I greased the CTM joints with synthetic grease... it was
EXTREMELY difficult to force grease into the joints with the needle
fitting... it took lots of effort, but I finally got grease to come out
at
the base of every u-joint cap (the CTM joints have a grease fitting on
each
cap).

About the only drawback I can see to the CTM joints is the cost; $150
each.
I purchased them from 4 wheeler's and they give a good discount but
compared
to a 297x u-joint; these things are gold. This being said; a u-joint
failure costs me an axle each time it happens... so if I can prevent a
failure and save an axle; I'm ahead... which makes these joints perfect
for
me. Combined with a lifetime "you break it we replace it" warranty from
CTM
and 4 wheeler's supply; these will be the last u-joints I will ever buy.
For those who have broken u-joints take out expensive axles... you may
want
to consider the CTM u-joint.

Kind Regards,

Joe West




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


75989 From: flatfenderman2000 <cnd4ever@g...> <cnd4ever@g...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 9:59am
Subject: Re: Trail blockage, Rock stackers


I agree that rock stacking is a bad thing. But I have to admit that I
too have stacked rocks and left them in place, and I'd bet most of
you have too. We all need to be more carefull about removing rocks.
However trails not only seem to degrade from stacking but also from
general use. Traffic seems to compact the trails and even form ramps
in some places. Take for example the berms that have formed on the on
every corner of the main roads around the FJ area from ATV's. What we
need is some good rains and enough flooding to wash it all away.
Being a Florence local for 12 years now, it's easy to remember the
flood in 93 that took out several Gila River bridges. In fact after
that flood even Box Canyon was impassable to most Jeeps of the day.
It was bad (good) enough that it would be tuff for even todays Rock
Rigs to get through, now any stock 4wd can make it. Rains could not
be more timely for or sport right now either, all of the oil spills
and such would be gone. What would the Tucson BLM have to ***** about
then?

Chris L.

--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Chris <my1stjeep@e...>"
<my1stjeep@e...> wrote:
> You can't be serious. All sports have different levels of
> competition for all skill levels. So should we change the olympics
> to give slower runners a head start? Should we spot the Arizona
> Cardinals points before every game so they have a slim chance
instead
> of no chance of winning? They don't make hiking trails easier for
al
> skill levels, you have to work up to it. They don't alter the
course
> of the rivers to make it easier for rafters or kayakers so why
alter
> trails?
>
> These trails were established as hard trails (they were not altered
> to be impassable as you suggested) and should stay that way, not be
> altered to make a stock vehicle run it. Some day I hope to run
these
> hard trails, but right now my rig is not ready and for some of them
I
> am not sure I am ready so I go and watch others. That is tread
> lightly. If for some reason you take a line and get into a
situation
> you can't drive out of without running over a bush, or chipping
away
> at a rock, stacking a rock is the least destructive, then stack a
> rock, get through and remove it.
>
> As for trails getting easier by nature you are correct, but that is
> out of our control and the land managers so I am not sure of your
> point. Keep in mind it can also make trails harder.
>
> I hope you just read the original post wrong and jumped in late in
> the process or did not have some information that you now have,
> because your original post makes no sense.
>
> Chris
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, John Stewart <landuse@u...> wrote:
> > At 12:38 PM -0700 1/19/03, TODD MCCULLEN wrote:
> > >Just need to add my 2 cents, I agree with Sandee 100%
> > > Myself and some buddies went out yesterday to play and
> practice
> > >for the upcoming competition, and the day ended up being a work
> day.
> > >We started off on lower woodpecker, and found all the good spots
> > >ramped with rocks. We spent the first hour unstacking everything
> we
> > >could find. After that we headed over to bad medicine to check
out
> > >the waterfall, we decided to do upper Ajax on the way. This
ended
> up
> > >in a major derocking of the trail, and it could use more. We
spent
> 2
> > >hours just removing rocks from the few hard spots on this trail.
> > >We did axle alley, and highway to hell a couple weeks ago and
did
> > >the same thing. Heck axle alley was so paved it took us about
five
> > >minutes to get to the first waterfall, when this trail was new
it
> > >took a couple hours to get this far. This is an example of how
the
> > >tough trails are being paved by people & rigs that did not
belong
> > >there.
> > >The last waterfall on Bad Medicine is now passable, we managed
to
> > >maneuver the rocks down to the bottom of the waterfall. It is
not
> > >easy, so the people that worry about breakage or damage DO NOT
DO
> > >THE TRAIL.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! do a trail that you are capable of
> > >without ruining the trail for the ones that like the extreme
> > >challenge.
> > >I am sick and tired of every time I go out wheeling, I spend
half
> > >the day UNSTACKING ROCKS. We do put winches on our rigs for a
> > >reason. If you cant not drive the obstacle without building
ramps,
> > >use your WINCH.
> > >I could go on forever about this so I will stop now, GET THE
POINT.
> > >
> > >Todd
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > I will take you to task on the central issue you are advocating:
> >
> > If you are saying that the ONLY people on the trails are the ones
> > that want the extreme trail, you are no different than the GAG
that
> > wants no one but them on foot on the trail.
> >
> > If it is a trail on PUBLIC LAND and it is a recognized trail,
> making
> > the trail impassible except for a modified rig is a sure sign to
> get
> > the trail closed.
> >
> > I agree that people with stock vehicles have no business on many
of
> > the trails. By the same token, if you are going to limit access
to
> > special class of rigs, you are asking for a trail closure,
> especially
> > if a case of bodily injury or death occurs.
> >
> > BLM is not going to keep a trail open if it is cited as a
> liability.
> > Okay, now start the argument about how people need to have their
> own
> > insurance, yada, yada, yada and they should be responsible, yada,
> > yada, yada..
> >
> > Making a trail difficult has caused a major problem with the
Little
> > Sluice on the Rubicon.
> >
> > Okay, you want extreme trails? Join the Rockcrawler groups and
> have
> > at it on a course. Keep in mind that a course can be set up and
> > removed. Trails are no different, they can be removed and will
be
> > remove when they become a liability.
> >
> > You need to remember that access to trails on PUBLIC LANDS needs
to
> > be available to the PUBLIC. If you are going to advocate in land
> > management plans that trails be kept for extreme use, you are
> playing
> > into the GAGs hand. The argument becomes a losing battle because
> the
> > BLM is not going to keep trails for a few (elite CAPABILITY) at
the
> > expense of many.
> >
> > I have used the argument about the number of 4x4 recreationists
> that
> > are desiring access to trails and trying to say that the numbers
> > demand that trails be kept open as opposed to the limited number
of
> > hikers that would otherwise have the area to themselves.
> >
> > Now, you want to take the set of potential trail users and limit
> that
> > to the few who want extreme trails. Sorry, I will go out and
help
> > stack the rocks so that more people from all skill levels can use
> the
> > trails. That is the only way we will be able to keep them open.
> > Access for ALL.
> >
> >
> > --
> > John Stewart
> > Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
> > Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
> > Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com
> > Webmaster, Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net


75990 From: jeepthingtj2000 <jeepthingtj2000@h...> <jeepthingtj2000@h...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:02am
Subject: super 35, gears & locker?


Around the end of Feb. I am going to be in the market for axle
upgrade, gears & lockers. I have a 00' TJ w/ D35 rear and D30 front
cranking 35" tires on 3.73's. I am looking at the super 35 kit,
4.88's & detroit locker in the rear. I would really like to do the
work myself but have never tore into that before. I could handle the
axles but I heard the ring & pinion can be a bit tricky and being
that i have never done it before, dont know if I would be better off
having it done at a good shop here in Tucson? or someone that has
done it before to lend a helping hand? Any suggestions would be
greatly appreciated.
TIA
Jeremy TJ 00'


75991 From: Chris <my1stjeep@e...> <my1stjeep@e...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:03am
Subject: Re: Trail blockage, Rock stackers


John,

No where in his email did he advocate going out and making all the
trails harder. He simply said he was restoring some tails back to
their previous condition and advocates keeping hard trails hard and
easy trails easy, everyone wins. Your statement about making all the
trails easy by coming out and stacking rocks was insane. You email
advocated altering trails, which you say is going to get them
closed? Are you trying to have it both ways or just retrace your
steps?

Restoring the land to its original form is bad? How is this? Most
land management organizations know of the tails, know how hard they
are and if they come back and see they are easy will know that
someone is altering the trails. If they are restored often an
maintained in original condition how will this get them closed? I am
missing something here, are you forgetting to tell the whole story?

Chris
---------------------------------------------------------------------



--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, John Stewart <landuse@u...> wrote:
> You are misunderstanding a few points.
>
> 1 - I believe vehicles should be prepared for the trail.
>
> 2 - I do not believe EVERY trail should be hardcore extreme.
>
> 3 - I am not saying "pave" the trails. I am saying that if you
> insist on extreme trails and only extreme trails, you will have not
> trails.
>
> My opening statement was "If you are saying that the ONLY people on
> the trails are the ones that want the extreme trail, you are no
> different than the GAG that wants no one but them on foot on the
> trail."
>
> That is my point of concern. If you are going to only allow a
> certain class of modified rig on the trail, you will have a
> diminishing number of people and less of a chance to keep the
trails
> open.
>
> Any stacking (or unstacking) of rocks is going to lead to problems.
> That is the central point around the Little Sluice on the Rubicon.
> Somebody felt is was too easy; therefore they took it upon
themselves
> to make it harder, to keep the unmodified rigs out of their play
> area, and dumped some large rocks in the trail..
>
> This is the attitude that I am disagreeing with. In this case, did
> someone feel it was too hard and decide to make it easy? So, they
> fill in a few holes. Now, Todd goes around to various trails
> unstacking rocks. Both actions are going to lead to problems.
Just
> as making a bypass around a tough spot will lead to problems.
>
> Central to this issue is the act of modifying trail; whether to
make
> them harder or easier. Both are actions that will draw the
attention
> of the land manager and lead to environmental considerations for
> closing trails. There is specific guidance within the BLM manual
> (and the Forest Service manual) dealing with trail construction and
> maintenance.
>
> And, yes I do disagree with the attitude that you have the right to
> modify a trail because you think it should be harder. I also
> disagree with modifying the trail to make it easier. You should be
> prepared.
>
> As you are from Arizona, you should be familiar with the Skye
Island
> Alliance. Check out their Road Ripper Manual. They are making
> trails impassible.
>
>
> At 5:00 AM +0000 1/20/03, Gary_Pugsley <gary_pugsley@h...> wrote:
> >WOW. This guy is the Environmental Affairs Director for UFWDA?
> >Where did they get him, The Sierra Club? Makes me wonder what the
> >UFWDA's stance on paving trails, so my parents can take their buick
> >on it, is. If it is anything like Mr. Stewart's, we are all
> >screwed. If newbies (like myself) all listened to him, we would
lose
> >access to all our trails pretty damn quick.
> >
> >Like Jim from Tucson said, I have a stock TJ. That's why I did not
> >know what trail this waterfall was on when the damage was shown to
> >me. I go where I have the tools to go, and save the other trails
for
> >more properly equipped rigs.
> >
> >Did he really just tell us that we should "pave" all the trails?
> >Do all the associations he is so proud to be affiliated with (the
> >ones under his name in every post) know that this is his way
> >of "protecting" our right to run trails on public land? Don't we
> >have a responsibility to let these groups know what he is
advocating,
> >so they can decide if he really is the right person for the jobs?
> >
> >John, Maybe we all misunderstood. Maybe you were being sarcastic.
> >Maybe you just weren't thinking. Maybe, like Stu said, someone
> >hacked your account. If so, please explain yourself. If this is
> >truly your belief, please, go away. You will quickly do more harm
> >than you could ever imagine. With "friends" like you, who needs
the
> >greenies? You will have us all climbing speed bumps at the mall
in a
> >year.
> >
> >
> >Gary
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> I will take you to task on the central issue you are advocating:
> >>
> > > If you are saying that the ONLY people on the trails are the
ones
> >> that want the extreme trail, you are no different than the GAG
that
> > > wants no one but them on foot on the trail.
> >>
> >> If it is a trail on PUBLIC LAND and it is a recognized trail,
> >making
> >> the trail impassible except for a modified rig is a sure sign to
> >get
> >> the trail closed.
> >>
> >> I agree that people with stock vehicles have no business on
many of
> >> the trails. By the same token, if you are going to limit
access to
> >> special class of rigs, you are asking for a trail closure,
> >especially
> >> if a case of bodily injury or death occurs.
> >>
> >> BLM is not going to keep a trail open if it is cited as a
> >liability.
> >> Okay, now start the argument about how people need to have their
> >own
> >> insurance, yada, yada, yada and they should be responsible,
yada,
> >> yada, yada..
> >>
> >> Making a trail difficult has caused a major problem with the
Little
> >> Sluice on the Rubicon.
> >>
> >> Okay, you want extreme trails? Join the Rockcrawler groups and
> >have
> >> at it on a course. Keep in mind that a course can be set up and
> >> removed. Trails are no different, they can be removed and will
be
> >> remove when they become a liability.
> >>
> >> You need to remember that access to trails on PUBLIC LANDS
needs to
> >> be available to the PUBLIC. If you are going to advocate in
land
> >> management plans that trails be kept for extreme use, you are
> >playing
> >> into the GAGs hand. The argument becomes a losing battle
because
> >the
> >> BLM is not going to keep trails for a few (elite CAPABILITY) at
the
> >> expense of many.
> >>
> >> I have used the argument about the number of 4x4 recreationists
> >that
> >> are desiring access to trails and trying to say that the numbers
> >> demand that trails be kept open as opposed to the limited
number of
> >> hikers that would otherwise have the area to themselves.
> >>
> >> Now, you want to take the set of potential trail users and limit
> >that
> >> to the few who want extreme trails. Sorry, I will go out and
help
> >> stack the rocks so that more people from all skill levels can
use
> >the
> >> trails. That is the only way we will be able to keep them open.
> >> Access for ALL.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> John Stewart
> >> Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
> >> Recreation Access and Conservation Editor,
http://www.4x4wire.com
> >> Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com
> >> Webmaster, Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> --
> John Stewart
> Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
> Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
> Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com
> Webmaster, Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net


75992 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:05am
Subject: [FS] jeep yard sale


Price: call

Contact: 480-343-1443

Its time to clean house n make my roomate happy. Its hard when you have a female roomate and own a jeep at the same time. So here's what I have.

D-35 with the limited slip in it 3:55s off yj

d-30 missing an axle shaft 3:55s off yj

if you need a core for 4.2 I have a block w no head on it been out in weather for little bit come n get it free fifty free It's goin in the trash.

set of high back seats

2 32x11.5 15 spare tires free but you have to un mount my rims

i think the tranny is a SR4. It came out of a 82 jeep 6 cyl with a dana 300 behind it. 4 speed tranny with the adapter behind it.

Parts dirt bike 83 CR125 good plastics seat not ripped bored out +25 jug w/weisco piston never put together. I pulled the thing out of storage but can't find the bottom end to the motor.

As soon as I get off my butt and start cleaning I'll probably find a gold mine of goodies to put on here.

Call me 480-343-1443

Eric Taylor


75993 From: John Stewart <landuse@u...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:11am
Subject: Fwd: USA-ALL Monday Dispatch for Jan. 20, 2003


Greetings All,

As per usual, lots of great stuff in this weeks dispatch. Don't miss any of it!

Enjoy!

Brian Hawthorne
Utah Shared Access Alliance



USA-ALL Monday Dispatch for January 20, 2003

Your Tax Dollars At Work
I ran across this little tidbit in the Washington Post the other day.
I had been wondering what was going on at the EPA after reading
reports of how the agency is openly inviting religious groups that
promote green causes like climate change to apply for funds made
available through Bush's Faith-Based initiative (see links below).

I'm not quite certain if this story offers an explanation, or just
makes the whole thing more confusing.

I guess you can decide for yourself.
See: Intimate Climate
<http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35084-2003Jan9.html>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35084-2003Jan9.html

Background:
EPA Seeks Faith-Based Grants for Green Causes.
<http://www.CNSNEWS.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200212\NAT2002 1220b.html>http://www.CNSNEWS.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200212\NAT2002 1220b.html
and:
White House Defends Plan For Faith-Based Environmental Grants
<http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200301/NAT20030113b.html>http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200301/NAT20030113b.html

Also, don't miss Paul Mortensen's excellent commentary on the issue.
Go to: <http://www.usa-all.com>http://www.usa-all.com and click on
News/Articles. Look for "Invitation to Madness"

Shooting ATV's
An article written by Skip Knowles appeared in the Sports section of
the Salt Lake Tribune on Sunday January 12, 2003. Thousands of ATV
riders all over the country found it highly offensive.

USA-ALL chose not to feature it in our newsclips because it's very
poorly written and, frankly, we don't usually draw attention to this
kind of intellectually bankrupt hit-peice disguised as a news story.

It might still be available on the internet.
Check: ATVs Wreak Havoc in Forest Lands
<http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01122003/sports/19561.asp>http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01122003/sports/19561.asp

(If that link doesn't work, all Salt Lake Tribune stories are
available on the internet for a small fee via their TribAccess Online
Archive. See: <http://www.tribaccess.com/>http://www.tribaccess.com/ )

Most of the members on our ACTION ALERT list have already read it,
and many have responded. In fact, I know that the Tribune received a
pantload of letters objecting to the story because many folks sent me
copies. Most of them were well written, made excellent points and
deserved to be printed.

So, every day this week I checked the Tribune to see which of those
letters would appear in the paper. I looked and looked -- but
couldn't find a single one!

Here's our take on the whole thing:
We acknowledge that there are valid issues associated with unlawful
OHV use. We also acknowledge that ATV use by hunters is a festering
problem. Skip could have written a legitimate story about how hunters
using ATV's must adhere to the rules and regulations. Skip could have
a legitimate story about management problems associated with OHV use.
Instead, Skip wrote a rant that belonged on an Anti-Access internet
chat line, not the Salt Lake Tribune's sports page. Our view is; this
isn't Skip's fault... it's his editors that should have known better.

The Tribune seems to have a decidedly anti-OHV bias. We've gotten
used to that. But the appearance of this kind of rant, disguised as a
legitimate news story, crossed a line a professional journalists
shouldn't cross. Truly, Skip and his editors should have done better.

UPDATE:
The Trib printed this in today's (Monday, Jan. 20) edition:
Not All ATVs Are Bad
<http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01202003/public_f/21851.asp>http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01202003/public_f/21851.asp

Beware Of Bureaucrats Bearing Promises

Toward the end of the Clinton/Gore administration, rumors of another
Grand Staircase-Escalante type national monument in southwestern
Idaho caused citizens from Owyhee County to organize in an effort to
oppose the idea. A diverse group of stakeholders -- from cattlemen to
hunters to recreationists to county commissioners -- expressed
concern about the loss of grazing, access and water rights if a
monument would be designated.

Wilderness Advocate Groups (WAGs) had openly advocated the monument
in radio and print advertisements that ran in Boise and other urban
areas of Idaho. The ads noted that the Grand Staircase-Escalante
National Monument had preserved grazing, access and water rights and
asserted that fears about losing these traditional uses were
unfounded.

A grassroots group organized to oppose the designation, the Friends
of the Owyhees, invited folks from communities at the edge of the
Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument to visit Owyhee County
and share their experiences. I was also invited to speak about how
the Grand Staircase affected access and recreation.

I'll never forget it. Although we never once spoke to each other
prior to the rally in Idaho, we all had exactly the same message: DO
NOT trust what they will tell you about preserving your existing
rights.

My presentation focused on how recreationists were fools to trust the
"strong language preserving existing rights" contained in the Grand
Staircase's proclamation. I spoke about how we were fools to believe
a BLM-managed national monument would be managed under multiple-use
philosophy, and, how we were fools to believe we would have a voice
in the planning process. The others speaking at that rally said
exactly the same thing. It could have been amusing... if it weren't
so tragic.

Clinton's Proclamation designating the Grand Staircase reads, in part:

The establishment of this monument is subject to valid existing rights.

Nothing in this proclamation shall be deemed to diminish the
responsibility and authority of the State of Utah for management of
fish and wildlife, including regulation of hunting and fishing, on
Federal lands within the monument.

Nothing in this proclamation shall be deemed to affect existing
permits or leases for, or levels of, livestock grazing on Federal
lands within the monument; existing grazing uses shall continue to be
governed by applicable laws and regulations other than this
proclamation.

Don't worry, they said. The Proclamation protects existing uses. This
is a BLM Monument. It will be different.

We believed them. We trusted them.

We were fools.

See: Grazing Permits to Retire
<http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01142003/utah/20024.asp>http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01142003/utah/20024.asp
Grazing reduced in parts of Grand Staircase
<http://www.desnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,450026603,00.html>http://www.desnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,450026603,00.html
BLM to retire grazing permits
<http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Jan-15-Wed-2003/news/20476232.html>http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Jan-15-Wed-2003/news/20476232.html

Salt Lake Tribune Deserves Award For Most Misleading Letter-To-Editor Title

This is NOT about what you might think it is, but it's still a good read.

See: Protect Oldest Professions
<http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01172003/public_f/20905.asp>http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01172003/public_f/20905.asp

Still More Wolf Tales
Here's another one of those Wolves are moral creatures, Humans are
not letters. Sheesh!

See: Wolves belong in Utah
<http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,450026916,00.html>http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,450026916,00.html

Bowling For Meteorites
Remember those stories about throwing bowling balls at the desert
floor in order to mimic meteorites? (see links below) Well, Alan
Thorpe from Castle Dale wrote an excellent response. Credit to the
Tribune for printing this one.

See: Bowling Ball Science
<http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01182003/public_f/21249.asp>http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01182003/public_f/21249.asp

A Meteorite? No, It's Just a Bowling Ball
<http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01082003/utah/18283.asp>http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01082003/utah/18283.asp
Plan to Mimic Meteorites With Bowling Balls Lands With Thud at BLM
<http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01102003/utah/18930.asp>http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01102003/utah/18930.asp

Study Says Oil And Gas Not Off-Limits
Yea, but did they ask our litigious Environmental friends?

Lee Davidson from the Deseret News reports about how a new Interior
Department study contradicts what Bush Administration officials have
said about large oil and gas reserves on public lands being
off-limits. The study says that 57 percent of the oil and 63 percent
of natural gas existing under five major basins is available for
leasing under "standard contracts".

Yea, right. When SUWA and the Sierra Club sues the BLM for
authorizing modest exploration activities, let alone drilling? AS IF!

See: Major oil and gas fields not off limits, study says
<http://www.desnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,450027125,00.html>http://www.desnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,450027125,00.html

Perfect Opportunity For OHV Park
You Utah County enthusiast should jump on this. The old Lindon
landfill is an ideal place for an OHV park.

See: Wheelies atop old Lindon landfill?
<http://www.desnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,450026444,00.html>http://www.desnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,450026444,00.html

Explaining Enviro's
Sometimes I'm asked to explain the wacko ideas spouted by wacko
environmentalists. Sometimes that's pretty hard to do because they
are just so wacky!

This story might explain some of it.

See: On the (Deserted, Desert) Road With Edward Abbey, Chaos as Usual
<http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01192003/commenta/21299.asp>http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01192003/commenta/21299.asp

San Rafael Trust-Land Trade Back In The News

San Rafael Do-Over Chills BLM
<http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01202003/utah/21891.asp>http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01202003/utah/21891.asp

Newsclips:
Stalinist Environmental Policy
<http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01142003/public_f/19937.asp>http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01142003/public_f/19937.asp
BLM Offers Lease on Martin's Cove to LDS Church, Wyo. Senator Says
<http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01182003/utah/21340.asp>http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01182003/utah/21340.asp
Dry Spell Devastates Farmers
<http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01152003/utah/20307.asp>http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01152003/utah/20307.asp
BLM proposes plan for leasing cove
<http://www.desnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,450027115,00.html>http://www.desnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,450027115,00.html
Sand Hollow Development Phase OK'd
<http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01152003/utah/20340.asp>http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Jan/01152003/utah/20340.asp
Group Holds Meeting in Search of 'West That Works'
<http://santafenewmexican.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=2144&dept_id=500281&newsid=6715705&PAG=461&rfi=9>http://santafenewmexican.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=2144&dept_id=500281&newsid=6715705&PAG=461&rfi=9



--
John Stewart
Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com
Webmaster, Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net


75994 From: onebdjeep <onebdjeep@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:29am
Subject: Re: Bending steel?? Is it for me??


That does it! Welder, cuttin torch, metal bendin stuff... how is santa gonna
get this in his bag o goodies this xmas!!?? i am going to turn my garage
into a fabricating heaven!!

thx!


Sean Speer
OneBdJeep (someday!!)
'97 TJ with killer mods to come!!!
(umm... will drink beer for Jeep parts!!!)



----- Original Message -----
From: "Trujillo, Jeff" <jeff.trujillo@m...>
To: "AZVJC (E-mail)" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 7:52 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Bending steel?? Is it for me??


> I just made a bumper this weekend and it looks really nice. Yes, its worth
> it to do it yourself. In my own opinion. Yea, its nice to just go buy
> something (when you have the money) but its also nice to look back at
> something that you built and watch it work. I would rather build it myself
> than just bolt something up. That might be nice and dandy for some people
> but not me. Its a challenge and thats what I like. I just got a welder a
> month ago and now I need a cutting torch to be fully dangerous. LOL
Wouldn't
> mind a metal bender also and a lot other things!
>
>
> Jeffrey A. Trujillo
> Field Service Representative
> MD Helicopters, Inc.
> jeff.trujillo@m...
> Voice:(480)346-6249
> Fax:(480)346-6813
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: onebdjeep [mailto:onebdjeep@c...]
> Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 7:26 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Bending steel?? Is it for me??
>
>
> Ok, I have looked at Harbor Freight and it appears that they have some
> pretty decent prices on metal bending equipment. The question is... Is it
> really worth the money and time to fabricate your own equiptment? I think
> that it would be pretty nice to say "Hey look at what I did!!" like ole
> Michael did. I am sure he will get all the compliments in the world on a
> trail run "Hey Mike... nice rack!!!" and he will beam with pride.
>
> So how hard was it really Mike? Was it worth it? I have already started to
> save the money for the bending equip. What about making bumpers and tire
> carriers and stuff? What about a new cage? Where the hell do ya get the
> metal to do this?
>
> Thx!
>
> Sean (just too damn cheap to buy the goods!)
>
>
> Sean Speer
> OneBdJeep (someday!!)
> '97 TJ with killer mods to come!!!
> (umm... will drink beer for Jeep parts!!!)
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
> which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
> material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
> taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
> entities other than the intended recipient or employees of
> MD Helicopters, Inc. is prohibited. If you received this in error,
please
> contact the sender by email and delete the material from any computer..
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


75995 From: onebdjeep <onebdjeep@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:32am
Subject: Re: Bending steel?? Is it for me??


This one
32888-1VGA
Central Hydraulics 12 TON HYDRAULIC PIPE BENDER $99.99


or this one
38024-0VGA
Central Hydraulics 12 TON HYDRAULIC HORIZONTAL/VERTICAL PIPE BENDER $119.99


i guess i could do my own custom exhaust too. will this work for something like Michael did?

Sean Speer
OneBdJeep (someday!!)
'97 TJ with killer mods to come!!!
(umm... will drink beer for Jeep parts!!!)



----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Kruize
To: 'onebdjeep' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 8:14 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Bending steel?? Is it for me??



I went to www.harborfreight.com typed in the word 'bender' in the search box and 10 results come up. Just out of curiosity, Which of these are you looking at?



Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: onebdjeep [mailto:onebdjeep@cox.net]
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 7:26 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Bending steel?? Is it for me??


Ok, I have looked at Harbor Freight and it appears that they have some pretty decent prices on metal bending equipment. The question is... Is it really worth the money and time to fabricate your own equiptment? I think that it would be pretty nice to say "Hey look at what I did!!" like ole Michael did. I am sure he will get all the compliments in the world on a trail run "Hey Mike... nice rack!!!" and he will beam with pride.

So how hard was it really Mike? Was it worth it? I have already started to save the money for the bending equip. What about making bumpers and tire carriers and stuff? What about a new cage? Where the hell do ya get the metal to do this?

Thx!

Sean (just too damn cheap to buy the goods!)


Sean Speer
OneBdJeep (someday!!)
'97 TJ with killer mods to come!!!
(umm... will drink beer for Jeep parts!!!)




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


Attachment: (image/gif) 32888-t.gif [not stored]
Attachment: (image/gif) addtocart.gif [not stored]
Attachment: (image/gif) 38024-t.gif [not stored]

75996 From: onebdjeep <onebdjeep@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:35am
Subject: Re: Bending steel?? Is it for me??


This is too awesome! now i can justify the savings to my wife!!! i know i can get one now!!! YIPPEEEEE!!!!!

thx!


Sean Speer
OneBdJeep (someday!!)
'97 TJ with killer mods to come!!!
(umm... will drink beer for Jeep parts!!!)



----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Beckham
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com ; onebdjeep
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Bending steel?? Is it for me??


This was my first effort in home-made. I borrowed the bender (hydraulic hand pumped) from a friend. I practiced with a spare piece of tubing till I felt I could judge where to plan bends, then started for real. It took me 2 days, and really was time-consuming as I had no experience to draw on, and had to really plan each one.
The factors I was considering was what I had seen and heard about other aftermarket roof racks available. That and I didn't want to drill a bunch of holes in my jeep.
The basket was easiest, as all I needed to do was make 2 squares, and then join them to form a basket, similar to the Warrior rack I saw in the mags. Mine is approx 60 " wide by 66" long, 6 " tall. this gives me room to place things and secure them down. I attached the support to the rocker skid, and the 2 bolts for the door hinge/frame support with grade 8 bolts.
The basket is removable, leaving the support in place where I can mount lights etc, but still just 4 bolts and it comes off too.
After this, I think I will put the spare on top, and leave the back clean.
tire carrier involves a hinge, and I will have to think on that.
I spent 70 bucks on tubing.
I had a ball! (grunt snort bark!)

----- Original Message -----
From: onebdjeep
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 7:26 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Bending steel?? Is it for me??


Ok, I have looked at Harbor Freight and it appears that they have some pretty decent prices on metal bending equipment. The question is... Is it really worth the money and time to fabricate your own equiptment? I think that it would be pretty nice to say "Hey look at what I did!!" like ole Michael did. I am sure he will get all the compliments in the world on a trail run "Hey Mike... nice rack!!!" and he will beam with pride.

So how hard was it really Mike? Was it worth it? I have already started to save the money for the bending equip. What about making bumpers and tire carriers and stuff? What about a new cage? Where the hell do ya get the metal to do this?

Thx!

Sean (just too damn cheap to buy the goods!)


Sean Speer
OneBdJeep (someday!!)
'97 TJ with killer mods to come!!!
(umm... will drink beer for Jeep parts!!!)




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



75997 From: onebdjeep <onebdjeep@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:36am
Subject: Re: Bending steel?? Is it for me??


good input. i will keep that in mind. maybe i should find some one with the hydraulic bender just to give it a shot.


Sean Speer
OneBdJeep (someday!!)
'97 TJ with killer mods to come!!!
(umm... will drink beer for Jeep parts!!!)



----- Original Message -----
From: Mitch Woodward
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com ; onebdjeep
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Bending steel?? Is it for me??


Bending steel is not for you if you buy the hydraulic jack bender from Harbor Freight, they suck. If you're willing to spend the money for a jd2 or m-tech bender then it might be. A good bender with a couple of dies will be in the $700+ range. A decent welder will set you back $400+. The tubing notcher will be another $100+. All of these tools are worth the money IMHO, but only if you use them frequently. If you're just doing a few things on your own jeep, them letting the tools sit there, you should probably just go see Hunter.

Mitch
----- Original Message -----
From: onebdjeep
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 7:26 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Bending steel?? Is it for me??


Ok, I have looked at Harbor Freight and it appears that they have some pretty decent prices on metal bending equipment. The question is... Is it really worth the money and time to fabricate your own equiptment? I think that it would be pretty nice to say "Hey look at what I did!!" like ole Michael did. I am sure he will get all the compliments in the world on a trail run "Hey Mike... nice rack!!!" and he will beam with pride.

So how hard was it really Mike? Was it worth it? I have already started to save the money for the bending equip. What about making bumpers and tire carriers and stuff? What about a new cage? Where the hell do ya get the metal to do this?

Thx!

Sean (just too damn cheap to buy the goods!)


Sean Speer
OneBdJeep (someday!!)
'97 TJ with killer mods to come!!!
(umm... will drink beer for Jeep parts!!!)




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



75998 From: onebdjeep <onebdjeep@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:38am
Subject: Re: a call to arms


What are the times my dear friend? you have gained a friend and if you feel that the support will be justified then you can count me in. i can bring my ankle biters out for a coupla extra hands too!


Sean Speer
OneBdJeep (someday!!)
'97 TJ with killer mods to come!!!
(umm... will drink beer for Jeep parts!!!)



----- Original Message -----
From: Stu Olson
To: robert.rogers@cox.net ; 'AzVJC'
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 9:32 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] a call to arms


Well, I think you could call it that.



I want to emphasize the importance of this cleanup! Many of us use the Table Mesa trails to support our Jeep addiction. Without these trails, we would be significantly impacted as far as quality trails within a short drive time from the valley.



So please….set aside a couple of hours this coming Saturday and help out at Table Mesa. I am extending a personal invitation to the folks that ran Tin Can Alley with me just this past Saturday. So the rest of you don’t feel left out, I’ll extend the invite to anyone I’ve ever ran a trail with. And for those of you that haven’t shared a trail with me, please come out and introduce yourself so we aren’t strangers any longer, OK?



The point is, we need to make a strong showing of support and we need to help clean up the area. As they say, many hands make light work.



Let’s blow the land management folks away and overwhelm them with our help!



Thanks and see you on Saturday!



Stu



Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com

-----Original Message-----
From: AzVJC Website [mailto:azvjc@azvjc.org]
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 3:25 PM
To: AzVJC
Subject: [az_vjc] [TR] Cleanup - Saturday, January 25, 2003 - Reminder



Hello All,

Robert (Roy) Rogers is leading a Cleanup trail run on Saturday, January 25, 2003.

When: Meet at 9 AM
Where: West side of Table Mesa exit beyond end of pavement.
Rating: 2.0
Length: unknown
CB Channel: 4

Organized by the Phoenix Four Whelers in cooperation with the Arizona State Land Department (ASLD), the Lake Pleasant Regional Recreation Area (LPRRA), and the Bureau of Land Management (BLM).



The ASLD will provide dumpsters and trash bags, the LPRRA will provida a truck to haul away tires, and the Phoenix Four Wheelers will provide beverages.



any questions contact Ron Karlinsky (623-374-9443)

This trail run is a cleanup effort to help improve our environment and demonstrate our care for the land we use. Read the description for details about where and when. Click on the date below to see the description of the event.

Click Here To Add Your Name to the Sign Up List

Thank You,

- The AzVJC Website


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



75999 From: onebdjeep <onebdjeep@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:39am
Subject: Re: Bending steel?? Is it for me??


thx tj gill. that was my next question... what is all involved!?

i will check it out and see if i want to get my hands dirty!


Sean Speer
OneBdJeep (someday!!)
'97 TJ with killer mods to come!!!
(umm... will drink beer for Jeep parts!!!)



----- Original Message -----
From: AZICE626@aol.com
To: jeepnut7261@hotmail.com ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com ; onebdjeep@cox.net
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 9:39 AM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Bending steel?? Is it for me??


I found this on the JU board a few days ago.....its a great, easy to understand site for learning how to bend......kind of a "Bending 101".....tj gill

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/bendin_tube/index.html







76000 From: Trujillo, Jeff <jeff.trujillo@m...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:21am
Subject: RE: Bending steel?? Is it for me??


I have heard that the manual is better than the hydraulic. Don't know from
experience but I feel that if your slow and careful you won't have a prob.
Especially to make hard bends you would need the hyd assist. Any input?


Jeffrey A. Trujillo
Field Service Representative
MD Helicopters, Inc.
jeff.trujillo@m...
Voice:(480)346-6249
Fax:(480)346-6813



-----Original Message-----
From: onebdjeep [mailto:onebdjeep@c...]
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 11:36 AM
To: Mitch Woodward; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Bending steel?? Is it for me??


good input. i will keep that in mind. maybe i should find some one with the
hydraulic bender just to give it a shot.


Sean Speer
OneBdJeep (someday!!)
'97 TJ with killer mods to come!!!
(umm... will drink beer for Jeep parts!!!)




----- Original Message -----
From: Mitch Woodward <mailto:mitchwoodward@h...>
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com <mailto:az_vjc@yahoogroups.com> ; onebdjeep
<mailto:onebdjeep@c...>
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Bending steel?? Is it for me??

Bending steel is not for you if you buy the hydraulic jack bender from
Harbor Freight, they suck. If you're willing to spend the money for a jd2
or m-tech bender then it might be. A good bender with a couple of dies will
be in the $700+ range. A decent welder will set you back $400+. The tubing
notcher will be another $100+. All of these tools are worth the money IMHO,
but only if you use them frequently. If you're just doing a few things on
your own jeep, them letting the tools sit there, you should probably just go
see Hunter.

Mitch

----- Original Message -----
From: onebdjeep <mailto:onebdjeep@c...>
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com <mailto:az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 7:26 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Bending steel?? Is it for me??

Ok, I have looked at Harbor Freight and it appears that they have some
pretty decent prices on metal bending equipment. The question is... Is it
really worth the money and time to fabricate your own equiptment? I think
that it would be pretty nice to say "Hey look at what I did!!" like ole
Michael did. I am sure he will get all the compliments in the world on a
trail run "Hey Mike... nice rack!!!" and he will beam with pride.

So how hard was it really Mike? Was it worth it? I have already started to
save the money for the bending equip. What about making bumpers and tire
carriers and stuff? What about a new cage? Where the hell do ya get the
metal to do this?

Thx!

Sean (just too damn cheap to buy the goods!)


Sean Speer
OneBdJeep (someday!!)
'97 TJ with killer mods to come!!!
(umm... will drink beer for Jeep parts!!!)




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.



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which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
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contact the sender by email and delete the material from any computer..


76001 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:52am
Subject: RE: a call to arms


When: Meet at 9 AM
Where: West side of Table Mesa exit beyond end of pavement.



Your help will be appreciated, Sean.



Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com

-----Original Message-----
From: onebdjeep [mailto:onebdjeep@cox.net]
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 11:39 AM
To: robert.rogers@cox.net; 'AzVJC'; Stu Olson
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] a call to arms



What are the times my dear friend? you have gained a friend and if you feel that the support will be justified then you can count me in. i can bring my ankle biters out for a coupla extra hands too!





Sean Speer
OneBdJeep (someday!!)
'97 TJ with killer mods to come!!!
(umm... will drink beer for Jeep parts!!!)






----- Original Message -----

From: Stu Olson

To: robert.rogers@cox.net ; 'AzVJC'

Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 9:32 AM

Subject: [az_vjc] a call to arms



Well, I think you could call it that.



I want to emphasize the importance of this cleanup! Many of us use the Table Mesa trails to support our Jeep addiction. Without these trails, we would be significantly impacted as far as quality trails within a short drive time from the valley.



So please&.set aside a couple of hours this coming Saturday and help out at Table Mesa. I am extending a personal invitation to the folks that ran Tin Can Alley with me just this past Saturday. So the rest of you dont feel left out, Ill extend the invite to anyone Ive ever ran a trail with. And for those of you that havent shared a trail with me, please come out and introduce yourself so we arent strangers any longer, OK?



The point is, we need to make a strong showing of support and we need to help clean up the area. As they say, many hands make light work.



Lets blow the land management folks away and overwhelm them with our help!



Thanks and see you on Saturday!



Stu



Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com

-----Original Message-----
From: AzVJC Website [mailto:azvjc@azvjc.org]
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 3:25 PM
To: AzVJC
Subject: [az_vjc] [TR] Cleanup - Saturday, January 25, 2003 - Reminder



Hello All,

Robert (Roy) Rogers is leading a Cleanup trail run on Saturday, January 25, 2003.

When: Meet at 9 AM
Where: West side of Table Mesa exit beyond end of pavement.
Rating: 2.0
Length: unknown
CB Channel: 4

Organized by the Phoenix Four Whelers in cooperation with the Arizona State Land Department (ASLD), the Lake Pleasant Regional Recreation Area (LPRRA), and the Bureau of Land Management (BLM).



The ASLD will provide dumpsters and trash bags, the LPRRA will provida a truck to haul away tires, and the Phoenix Four Wheelers will provide beverages.



any questions contact Ron Karlinsky (623-374-9443)

This trail run is a cleanup effort to help improve our environment and demonstrate our care for the land we use. Read the description for details about where and when. Click on the date below to see the description of the event.

Click Here To Add Your Name to the Sign Up List

Thank You,

- The AzVJC Website


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.