blooddrive
01-07-2004, 09:44 PM
75952-75976
75952 From: John Stewart <landuse@u...>
Date: Sun Jan 19, 2003 11:00pm
Subject: Re: Trail blockage, Rock stackers
There is a "trail courtesy" factor involved. I am in support of a
universal trail rating system.
My concern is that any modification of the trails are going to be
misinterpreted.
Whether you are in Arizona, California, or any other state, injury on
a trail is going to be a concern. It has been cited by GAG interests
in EA/EIS comments. Just as liquid spills and broken glass left
behind has been cited as environmental degradation.
I am not arguing the manners issue. Responsible use of the trails is
the issue. My point is against the general belief that only extreme
trails are to be allowed and that all trails should be hard. We need
to educate and enforce the proper manners with respect to trail
courtesy. I have a problem with who ever pulled the rocks down.
That is trail damage of the worst order in that it is modifying the
surrounding area. And, if you have those actions on a regular basis,
they are going to be addressed as environmental damage.
By the same token, coming in later and removing all the rock to make
the trail harder can similar problems.
It is the issue of stacking and unstacking before continuing.
At 8:18 PM -0700 1/19/03, Sandee McCullen wrote:
>John,
>I cannot truly believe this came from you........ if we are ALL to use the
>SAME trails why os UFWDA stiving for a "universal" rating system and/or
>signing system for trails. ????? Why would anyone spend thousands of
>dollars on aftermarket equipment...... i.e., lockers, lifts, tires, fuel
>injection, Dana 60 axles, etc, etc if we ALL should do the same level trail
>because it's PUBLIC. Mother Nature didn't make all the land the
>same........... why should we?? Looks to me like Mother Nature is a better
>judge of "challenge" than you.
>
>Todd did not say anything about "MAKING A TRAIL MORE DIFFICULT".......... he
>referred to the vehicles traveling on or into a trail situation ABOVE their
>capabilities ............ driving experience and/or vehicle capabilities.
>These guys are literally paving and grooming ALL trails to the general level
>of a 2.0 on a 1-5 difficulty rating. THIS is what must stop. No one has a
>problem re "throwing a rock now and then to help a vehicle through a
>difficult spot" but courtesy on the trail would allow for those rocks to be
>taken out to allow the next vehicle the "challenge" the trail is rated for.
>Pulling down rock walls from the side of the trail to "fill in holes or to
>make ramps" is uncalled for and is what we're talking about. THIS is what
>will get our trails closed................... NOT RESPONSIBLE USE !!!
>
>The issue at hand came from a report that two large boulders were now in the
>middle of the waterfall of a 4.5 rated trail. These boulders were NOT
>brought down from the side to make the trail MORE difficult........... they
>were trying to make it easier by filling in holes or creaves'. What Todd
>and his group of 4-wheelers did was relocate the boulders to the point where
>the trail could again be used. With the boulders in place NO ONE was going
>to do the trail.............. extreme or not.
>
>I don't know about Cal or surrounding areas but Arizona land agencies are
>NOT looking at "closing trails because of difficulty". Actually they are
>very supportive of "rock crawling", if done responsibly. They want the
>trails rated and they ask the help of the recreationists to "patrol and/or
>educate our fellow users" about trail ethics and the use of trails within
>their capabilities.
>
>I guess bottom line is simply put:................ rocking, paving or in
>general, grooming a trail because their stock vehicle cannot traverse it is
>outright BAD TRAIL MANNERS!! Making by-passes and destroying the
>resourses around an obstacle or outside the parameters of a trail is what
>will close our trails............ NOT responsible use. We need trails of
>ALL difficulty levels to keep up with the numbers on public lands today and
>the challenge the recreationists require. Paving everything to the same
>level is ludicrous, if not outright stupid.
>
>Re rock crawling course being "set up and removed"............... where
>have you been John??? I don't know of one course that has moved anywhere.
>The courses being used by all the rock crawling organizations are simply the
>"lay of nature". Showing responsible use of these areas is what it's about.
>According to you we need to go in and "ROCK STACK" our rock crawling areas
>so your stock vehicle can use it. Go away John............
>
>If you come to Arizona and rock any trails here you'll fight with me!!!
>
>Sandee
>
>>
>> I will take you to task on the central issue you are advocating:
>>
>> If you are saying that the ONLY people on the trails are the ones
>> that want the extreme trail, you are no different than the GAG that
>> wants no one but them on foot on the trail.
>>
>> If it is a trail on PUBLIC LAND and it is a recognized trail, making
>> the trail impassible except for a modified rig is a sure sign to get
>> the trail closed.
>>
>> I agree that people with stock vehicles have no business on many of
>> the trails. By the same token, if you are going to limit access to
>> special class of rigs, you are asking for a trail closure, especially
>> if a case of bodily injury or death occurs.
>>
>> BLM is not going to keep a trail open if it is cited as a liability.
>> Okay, now start the argument about how people need to have their own
>> insurance, yada, yada, yada and they should be responsible, yada,
>> yada, yada..
>>
>> Making a trail difficult has caused a major problem with the Little
>> Sluice on the Rubicon.
>>
>> Okay, you want extreme trails? Join the Rockcrawler groups and have
>> at it on a course. Keep in mind that a course can be set up and
>> removed. Trails are no different, they can be removed and will be
>> remove when they become a liability.
>>
>> You need to remember that access to trails on PUBLIC LANDS needs to
>> be available to the PUBLIC. If you are going to advocate in land
>> management plans that trails be kept for extreme use, you are playing
>> into the GAGs hand. The argument becomes a losing battle because the
>> BLM is not going to keep trails for a few (elite CAPABILITY) at the
>> expense of many.
>>
>> I have used the argument about the number of 4x4 recreationists that
>> are desiring access to trails and trying to say that the numbers
>> demand that trails be kept open as opposed to the limited number of
>> hikers that would otherwise have the area to themselves.
>>
>> Now, you want to take the set of potential trail users and limit that
>> to the few who want extreme trails. Sorry, I will go out and help
>> stack the rocks so that more people from all skill levels can use the
>> trails. That is the only way we will be able to keep them open.
>> Access for ALL.
>>
>>
>> --
>> John Stewart
>> Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
>> Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
>> Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com
>> Webmaster, Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
--
John Stewart
Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com
Webmaster, Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
75953 From: John Stewart <landuse@u...>
Date: Sun Jan 19, 2003 11:31pm
Subject: RE: Re: Trail blockage, Rock stackers
Again, my concern stems from what I understood to be a general
feeling that rocks were being removed to make the trails harder.
I support a standard trail rating system. Modifying trails is an
problem that we have to deal with. Understanding that Joe Public is
going to buy a 4x4 and head for the nearest trail is something we
have to accept.
They are the ones that will be forcing the argument of difficulty of
trail when they don't know better. You may run the trails and
understand them; Joe Public is the new guy that is going to complain
to the land manager. Joe Public is the one going to be hurt when he
tries to move rock to make a place easier. Joe Public is the one
going to push the liability issue. Yes, it has been done.
From the information I have on Arizona, you do have a variety of
trails not found in most other states. You also do not have the GAG
pressures other states are facing. The Center for Biological
Diversity (out of Tuscon) has been a wreaking ball on California
trails. The Skye Island Alliance proudly advertises roads they have
ripped in the forests southeast of Tuscon.
Again, I am not arguing the fact that people need to practice proper
trail manners and unstack what they stack. I also believe people
should have a rig capable for the trails. I have seen many climbs
out of desert washes that have been chewed to hell by an open diff
vehicle and then, someone makes a bypass.
These trail modification actions are what will get trails closed.
At 11:50 PM -0700 1/19/03, Scott Kruize wrote:
>John,
>
>Todd wasn't "making the trail harder", he was restoring it back to the
>trail we all know and recognize. (Axle Alley is a class 5 trail on a 1-5
>rating system.) And from what I've seen that's not an elitist attitude,
>but rather frustration at people who stack up ramps but don't tear them
>down because they shouldn't be on a class 5 trail.
>
>Arizona has probably the most diverse and largest number of public
>trails anywhere in the country. Right near Axle Alley are countless
>other trails that are easier. Axle Alley, Box Canyon, Coke Ovens, Lower
>Ajax, Martinez, Highway to Hell and Woodpecker are very close to each
>other and offer varying difficulties from stock (Box Canyon) all the way
>up to highly modified (Axle Alley and Highway to Hell). Those of us that
>run these trails understand their ratings and what type of vehicle that
>is needed. We'd like to maintain these ratings for future users to enjoy
>the trail like we did years ago. That's not asking too much is it?
>
>Regards,
>
>Scott Kruize
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: John Stewart [mailto:landuse@u...]
>Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 11:41 PM
>To: Gary_Pugsley <gary_pugsley@h...>; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Trail blockage, Rock stackers
>
>
>You are misunderstanding a few points.
>
>1 - I believe vehicles should be prepared for the trail.
>
>2 - I do not believe EVERY trail should be hardcore extreme.
>
>3 - I am not saying "pave" the trails. I am saying that if you
>insist on extreme trails and only extreme trails, you will have not
>trails.
>
>My opening statement was "If you are saying that the ONLY people on
>the trails are the ones that want the extreme trail, you are no
>different than the GAG that wants no one but them on foot on the
>trail."
>
>That is my point of concern. If you are going to only allow a
>certain class of modified rig on the trail, you will have a
>diminishing number of people and less of a chance to keep the trails
>open.
>
>Any stacking (or unstacking) of rocks is going to lead to problems.
>That is the central point around the Little Sluice on the Rubicon.
>Somebody felt is was too easy; therefore they took it upon themselves
>to make it harder, to keep the unmodified rigs out of their play
>area, and dumped some large rocks in the trail..
>
>This is the attitude that I am disagreeing with. In this case, did
>someone feel it was too hard and decide to make it easy? So, they
>fill in a few holes. Now, Todd goes around to various trails
>unstacking rocks. Both actions are going to lead to problems. Just
>as making a bypass around a tough spot will lead to problems.
>
>Central to this issue is the act of modifying trail; whether to make
>them harder or easier. Both are actions that will draw the attention
>of the land manager and lead to environmental considerations for
>closing trails. There is specific guidance within the BLM manual
>(and the Forest Service manual) dealing with trail construction and
>maintenance.
>
>And, yes I do disagree with the attitude that you have the right to
>modify a trail because you think it should be harder. I also
>disagree with modifying the trail to make it easier. You should be
>prepared.
>
>As you are from Arizona, you should be familiar with the Skye Island
>Alliance. Check out their Road Ripper Manual. They are making
>trails impassible.
>
>
>At 5:00 AM +0000 1/20/03, Gary_Pugsley <gary_pugsley@h...> wrote:
>>WOW. This guy is the Environmental Affairs Director for UFWDA?
> >Where did they get him, The Sierra Club? Makes me wonder what the
>>UFWDA's stance on paving trails, so my parents can take their buick
>>on it, is. If it is anything like Mr. Stewart's, we are all
>>screwed. If newbies (like myself) all listened to him, we would lose
>>access to all our trails pretty damn quick.
>>
>>Like Jim from Tucson said, I have a stock TJ. That's why I did not
>>know what trail this waterfall was on when the damage was shown to me.
>
>>I go where I have the tools to go, and save the other trails for more
>>properly equipped rigs.
>>
>>Did he really just tell us that we should "pave" all the trails?
>>Do all the associations he is so proud to be affiliated with (the
>>ones under his name in every post) know that this is his way
>>of "protecting" our right to run trails on public land? Don't we
>>have a responsibility to let these groups know what he is advocating,
>>so they can decide if he really is the right person for the jobs?
>>
>>John, Maybe we all misunderstood. Maybe you were being sarcastic.
>>Maybe you just weren't thinking. Maybe, like Stu said, someone
>>hacked your account. If so, please explain yourself. If this is
>>truly your belief, please, go away. You will quickly do more harm
>>than you could ever imagine. With "friends" like you, who needs the
>>greenies? You will have us all climbing speed bumps at the mall in a
>>year.
>>
>>
>>Gary
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I will take you to task on the central issue you are advocating:
>>>
>> > If you are saying that the ONLY people on the trails are the ones
>>> that want the extreme trail, you are no different than the GAG that
>> > wants no one but them on foot on the trail.
>>>
>>> If it is a trail on PUBLIC LAND and it is a recognized trail,
>>making
>>> the trail impassible except for a modified rig is a sure sign to
>>get
>>> the trail closed.
>>>
>>> I agree that people with stock vehicles have no business on many of
>
>>> the trails. By the same token, if you are going to limit access to
>>> special class of rigs, you are asking for a trail closure,
>>especially
>>> if a case of bodily injury or death occurs.
>>>
>>> BLM is not going to keep a trail open if it is cited as a
>>liability.
>>> Okay, now start the argument about how people need to have their
>>own
>>> insurance, yada, yada, yada and they should be responsible, yada,
>>> yada, yada..
>>>
>>> Making a trail difficult has caused a major problem with the Little
>
>>> Sluice on the Rubicon.
>>>
>>> Okay, you want extreme trails? Join the Rockcrawler groups and
>>have
>>> at it on a course. Keep in mind that a course can be set up and
>>> removed. Trails are no different, they can be removed and will be
>>> remove when they become a liability.
>>>
>>> You need to remember that access to trails on PUBLIC LANDS needs to
>
>>> be available to the PUBLIC. If you are going to advocate in land
>>> management plans that trails be kept for extreme use, you are
>>playing
>>> into the GAGs hand. The argument becomes a losing battle because
> >the
>>> BLM is not going to keep trails for a few (elite CAPABILITY) at the
>
>>> expense of many.
>>>
>>> I have used the argument about the number of 4x4 recreationists
>>that
>>> are desiring access to trails and trying to say that the numbers
>>> demand that trails be kept open as opposed to the limited number of
>>> hikers that would otherwise have the area to themselves.
>>>
>>> Now, you want to take the set of potential trail users and limit
>>that
>>> to the few who want extreme trails. Sorry, I will go out and help
>>> stack the rocks so that more people from all skill levels can use
>>the
>>> trails. That is the only way we will be able to keep them open.
>>> Access for ALL.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> John Stewart
>>> Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
>>> Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
>>> Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com Webmaster,
>>> Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>--
>John Stewart
>Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org Recreation
>Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com Webmaster, Tierra
>del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com Webmaster, Jeep-L:
>http://www.jeep-l.net
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--
John Stewart
Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com
Webmaster, Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net
75954 From: Scott Kruize <skruize@c...>
Date: Sun Jan 19, 2003 11:32pm
Subject: RE: Re: Trail blockage, Rock stackers
Jphn,
I figured it was just a misunderstanding. Tends to happen easily on the
internet.
Glad we finally cleared this up.
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: John Stewart [mailto:jstewart@c...]
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 12:31 AM
To: Scott Kruize; 'John Stewart'; gary_pugsley@h...;
az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Trail blockage, Rock stackers
Again, my concern stems from what I understood to be a general
feeling that rocks were being removed to make the trails harder.
I support a standard trail rating system. Modifying trails is an
problem that we have to deal with. Understanding that Joe Public is
going to buy a 4x4 and head for the nearest trail is something we
have to accept.
They are the ones that will be forcing the argument of difficulty of
trail when they don't know better. You may run the trails and
understand them; Joe Public is the new guy that is going to complain
to the land manager. Joe Public is the one going to be hurt when he
tries to move rock to make a place easier. Joe Public is the one
going to push the liability issue. Yes, it has been done.
From the information I have on Arizona, you do have a variety of
trails not found in most other states. You also do not have the GAG
pressures other states are facing. The Center for Biological
Diversity (out of Tuscon) has been a wreaking ball on California
trails. The Skye Island Alliance proudly advertises roads they have
ripped in the forests southeast of Tuscon.
Again, I am not arguing the fact that people need to practice proper
trail manners and unstack what they stack. I also believe people
should have a rig capable for the trails. I have seen many climbs
out of desert washes that have been chewed to hell by an open diff
vehicle and then, someone makes a bypass.
These trail modification actions are what will get trails closed.
At 11:50 PM -0700 1/19/03, Scott Kruize wrote:
>John,
>
>Todd wasn't "making the trail harder", he was restoring it back to the
>trail we all know and recognize. (Axle Alley is a class 5 trail on a
>1-5 rating system.) And from what I've seen that's not an elitist
>attitude, but rather frustration at people who stack up ramps but don't
>tear them down because they shouldn't be on a class 5 trail.
>
>Arizona has probably the most diverse and largest number of public
>trails anywhere in the country. Right near Axle Alley are countless
>other trails that are easier. Axle Alley, Box Canyon, Coke Ovens, Lower
>Ajax, Martinez, Highway to Hell and Woodpecker are very close to each
>other and offer varying difficulties from stock (Box Canyon) all the
>way up to highly modified (Axle Alley and Highway to Hell). Those of us
>that run these trails understand their ratings and what type of vehicle
>that is needed. We'd like to maintain these ratings for future users to
>enjoy the trail like we did years ago. That's not asking too much is
>it?
>
>Regards,
>
>Scott Kruize
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: John Stewart [mailto:landuse@u...]
>Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 11:41 PM
>To: Gary_Pugsley <gary_pugsley@h...>; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Trail blockage, Rock stackers
>
>
>You are misunderstanding a few points.
>
>1 - I believe vehicles should be prepared for the trail.
>
>2 - I do not believe EVERY trail should be hardcore extreme.
>
>3 - I am not saying "pave" the trails. I am saying that if you insist
>on extreme trails and only extreme trails, you will have not trails.
>
>My opening statement was "If you are saying that the ONLY people on the
>trails are the ones that want the extreme trail, you are no different
>than the GAG that wants no one but them on foot on the trail."
>
>That is my point of concern. If you are going to only allow a certain
>class of modified rig on the trail, you will have a diminishing number
>of people and less of a chance to keep the trails open.
>
>Any stacking (or unstacking) of rocks is going to lead to problems.
>That is the central point around the Little Sluice on the Rubicon.
>Somebody felt is was too easy; therefore they took it upon themselves
>to make it harder, to keep the unmodified rigs out of their play area,
>and dumped some large rocks in the trail..
>
>This is the attitude that I am disagreeing with. In this case, did
>someone feel it was too hard and decide to make it easy? So, they fill
>in a few holes. Now, Todd goes around to various trails unstacking
>rocks. Both actions are going to lead to problems. Just as making a
>bypass around a tough spot will lead to problems.
>
>Central to this issue is the act of modifying trail; whether to make
>them harder or easier. Both are actions that will draw the attention
>of the land manager and lead to environmental considerations for
>closing trails. There is specific guidance within the BLM manual (and
>the Forest Service manual) dealing with trail construction and
>maintenance.
>
>And, yes I do disagree with the attitude that you have the right to
>modify a trail because you think it should be harder. I also disagree
>with modifying the trail to make it easier. You should be prepared.
>
>As you are from Arizona, you should be familiar with the Skye Island
>Alliance. Check out their Road Ripper Manual. They are making trails
>impassible.
>
>
>At 5:00 AM +0000 1/20/03, Gary_Pugsley <gary_pugsley@h...>
>wrote:
>>WOW. This guy is the Environmental Affairs Director for UFWDA?
> >Where did they get him, The Sierra Club? Makes me wonder what the
>>UFWDA's stance on paving trails, so my parents can take their buick on
>>it, is. If it is anything like Mr. Stewart's, we are all screwed. If
>>newbies (like myself) all listened to him, we would lose access to all
>>our trails pretty damn quick.
>>
>>Like Jim from Tucson said, I have a stock TJ. That's why I did not
>>know what trail this waterfall was on when the damage was shown to me.
>
>>I go where I have the tools to go, and save the other trails for more
>>properly equipped rigs.
>>
>>Did he really just tell us that we should "pave" all the trails? Do
>>all the associations he is so proud to be affiliated with (the ones
>>under his name in every post) know that this is his way of
>>"protecting" our right to run trails on public land? Don't we have a
>>responsibility to let these groups know what he is advocating, so they
>>can decide if he really is the right person for the jobs?
>>
>>John, Maybe we all misunderstood. Maybe you were being sarcastic.
>>Maybe you just weren't thinking. Maybe, like Stu said, someone hacked
>>your account. If so, please explain yourself. If this is truly your
>>belief, please, go away. You will quickly do more harm than you could
>>ever imagine. With "friends" like you, who needs the greenies? You
>>will have us all climbing speed bumps at the mall in a year.
>>
>>
>>Gary
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I will take you to task on the central issue you are advocating:
>>>
>> > If you are saying that the ONLY people on the trails are the ones
>>> that want the extreme trail, you are no different than the GAG
>>> that
>> > wants no one but them on foot on the trail.
>>>
>>> If it is a trail on PUBLIC LAND and it is a recognized trail,
>>making
>>> the trail impassible except for a modified rig is a sure sign to
>>get
>>> the trail closed.
>>>
>>> I agree that people with stock vehicles have no business on many
>>> of
>
>>> the trails. By the same token, if you are going to limit access to
>>> special class of rigs, you are asking for a trail closure,
>>especially
>>> if a case of bodily injury or death occurs.
>>>
>>> BLM is not going to keep a trail open if it is cited as a
>>liability.
>>> Okay, now start the argument about how people need to have their
>>own
>>> insurance, yada, yada, yada and they should be responsible, yada,
>>> yada, yada..
>>>
>>> Making a trail difficult has caused a major problem with the
>>> Little
>
>>> Sluice on the Rubicon.
>>>
>>> Okay, you want extreme trails? Join the Rockcrawler groups and
>>have
>>> at it on a course. Keep in mind that a course can be set up and
>>> removed. Trails are no different, they can be removed and will be
>>> remove when they become a liability.
>>>
>>> You need to remember that access to trails on PUBLIC LANDS needs
>>> to
>
>>> be available to the PUBLIC. If you are going to advocate in land
>>> management plans that trails be kept for extreme use, you are
>>playing
>>> into the GAGs hand. The argument becomes a losing battle because
> >the
>>> BLM is not going to keep trails for a few (elite CAPABILITY) at
>>> the
>
>>> expense of many.
>>>
>>> I have used the argument about the number of 4x4 recreationists
>>that
>>> are desiring access to trails and trying to say that the numbers
>>> demand that trails be kept open as opposed to the limited number of
>>> hikers that would otherwise have the area to themselves.
>>>
>>> Now, you want to take the set of potential trail users and limit
>>that
>>> to the few who want extreme trails. Sorry, I will go out and help
>>> stack the rocks so that more people from all skill levels can use
>>the
>>> trails. That is the only way we will be able to keep them open.
>>> Access for ALL.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> John Stewart
>>> Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
>>> Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
>>> Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com Webmaster,
>>> Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>--
>John Stewart
>Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org Recreation
>Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com Webmaster,
>Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com Webmaster, Jeep-L:
>http://www.jeep-l.net
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--
John Stewart
Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org Recreation
Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com Webmaster, Tierra
del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com Webmaster, Jeep-L:
http://www.jeep-l.net
75955 From: John Stewart <landuse@u...>
Date: Sun Jan 19, 2003 11:40pm
Subject: RE: Trail blockage, Rock stackers
Part of my point is that stacking (or unstacking) is a trail
alteration that does not support Tread Lightly!
I know land agencies are using the stacking (and unstacking) against us.
Trails will change in challenge as they are used. Some will become
easy and others will become more difficult. Sledgehammer (Johnson
Valley, CA) is a prime example. It has become easier over the years
and not really from stacking rocks.
It is a refreshing to know there are still some land agencies that
recognize and support your "unstacking" effort. That is not a
general attitude among the land managers.
At 8:33 PM -0700 1/19/03, Nasser wrote:
>John,
>
>I disagree with your assessment regarding Todd's post.
>
>I am not sure if you understood the point that he was trying to make. We
>are trying to educate ourselves (OHV) to leave the trails as we find them.
>One of the excuses that BLM has given us for closing trails is the
>alteration of that trail by OHVs. Stacking rocks is altering the trail, and
>altering the trail does not support the TREAD LIGHTLY motto.
>
>Todd is not implying that no one but the elite should run the tough trails.
>Instead he is expressing his frustration with a problem that we have been
>battling for a while. Stacking rock, making ramps, and the just leaving it
>that way is NOT what we want. The trails become less challenging and new
>tough trails are born. The land agencies recognize that and support us in
>the "unstacking" effort (not physically).
>
>If you find Todd's post harsh, you are correct. It is very frustrating to
>have to move tons of rocks that others had stacked. This group is comprised
>of many levels of experience and vehicle capabilities. Just to get an idea
>how many people in this group agree with your assessment about
>"rock-stacking", I will set up a pole to see what the majority thinks!
>
>The land agencies are using the rock-stacking problem against us. I kindly
>ask you to review the responses to your post, and reconsider your comments
>about going out there and stacking rocks. That is very sore subject for
>many of us.
>
>Regards,
>
>Nasser
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: John Stewart [mailto:landuse@u...]
>Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 6:38 PM
>To: TODD MCCULLEN; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Trail blockage, Rock stackers
>
>At 12:38 PM -0700 1/19/03, TODD MCCULLEN wrote:
>>Just need to add my 2 cents, I agree with Sandee 100%
>> Myself and some buddies went out yesterday to play and practice
>>for the upcoming competition, and the day ended up being a work day.
>>We started off on lower woodpecker, and found all the good spots
>>ramped with rocks. We spent the first hour unstacking everything we
>>could find. After that we headed over to bad medicine to check out
>>the waterfall, we decided to do upper Ajax on the way. This ended up
>>in a major derocking of the trail, and it could use more. We spent 2
>>hours just removing rocks from the few hard spots on this trail.
>>We did axle alley, and highway to hell a couple weeks ago and did
>>the same thing. Heck axle alley was so paved it took us about five
>>minutes to get to the first waterfall, when this trail was new it
>>took a couple hours to get this far. This is an example of how the
>>tough trails are being paved by people & rigs that did not belong
>>there.
>>The last waterfall on Bad Medicine is now passable, we managed to
>>maneuver the rocks down to the bottom of the waterfall. It is not
>>easy, so the people that worry about breakage or damage DO NOT DO
>>THE TRAIL.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! do a trail that you are capable of
>>without ruining the trail for the ones that like the extreme
>>challenge.
>>I am sick and tired of every time I go out wheeling, I spend half
>>the day UNSTACKING ROCKS. We do put winches on our rigs for a
>>reason. If you cant not drive the obstacle without building ramps,
>>use your WINCH.
> >I could go on forever about this so I will stop now, GET THE POINT.
>>
>>Todd
>>
>>
>
>
>I will take you to task on the central issue you are advocating:
>
>If you are saying that the ONLY people on the trails are the ones
>that want the extreme trail, you are no different than the GAG that
>wants no one but them on foot on the trail.
>
>If it is a trail on PUBLIC LAND and it is a recognized trail, making
>the trail impassible except for a modified rig is a sure sign to get
>the trail closed.
>
>I agree that people with stock vehicles have no business on many of
>the trails. By the same token, if you are going to limit access to
>special class of rigs, you are asking for a trail closure, especially
>if a case of bodily injury or death occurs.
>
>BLM is not going to keep a trail open if it is cited as a liability.
>Okay, now start the argument about how people need to have their own
>insurance, yada, yada, yada and they should be responsible, yada,
>yada, yada..
>
>Making a trail difficult has caused a major problem with the Little
>Sluice on the Rubicon.
>
>Okay, you want extreme trails? Join the Rockcrawler groups and have
>at it on a course. Keep in mind that a course can be set up and
>removed. Trails are no different, they can be removed and will be
>remove when they become a liability.
>
>You need to remember that access to trails on PUBLIC LANDS needs to
>be available to the PUBLIC. If you are going to advocate in land
>management plans that trails be kept for extreme use, you are playing
>into the GAGs hand. The argument becomes a losing battle because the
>BLM is not going to keep trails for a few (elite CAPABILITY) at the
>expense of many.
>
>I have used the argument about the number of 4x4 recreationists that
>are desiring access to trails and trying to say that the numbers
>demand that trails be kept open as opposed to the limited number of
>hikers that would otherwise have the area to themselves.
>
>Now, you want to take the set of potential trail users and limit that
>to the few who want extreme trails. Sorry, I will go out and help
>stack the rocks so that more people from all skill levels can use the
>trails. That is the only way we will be able to keep them open.
>Access for ALL.
>
>
>--
>John Stewart
>Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
>Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
>Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com
>Webmaster, Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--
John Stewart
Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com
Webmaster, Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net
75956 From: CoyotEddie <coyoteddie@e...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 4:26am
Subject: [OT]Web link for Converter
Here is the web link for the converter http://www.joshmadison.com/software/convert/
75957 From: <Steveslifer@a...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 0:44am
Subject: Windshield replacement
We need the windshield replaced on our TJ and we was wondering (a) does AVJC have any arrangements with a company here in the E. Valley; and (b) absent that, any recommendations? Thanks.
Steve and Rose Slifer
75958 From: CoyotEddie <coyoteddie@e...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:02am
Subject: Re: Windshield replacement
Do you have full glass coverage with your insurance co. ? I have found some don't realize that they do. Call you agent and ask them.
----- Original Message -----
From: Steveslifer@aol.com
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 6:44 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Windshield replacement
We need the windshield replaced on our TJ and we was wondering (a) does AVJC have any arrangements with a company here in the E. Valley; and (b) absent that, any recommendations? Thanks.
Steve and Rose Slifer
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
75959 From: Leonard K. Pennock <leonardpennock@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:12am
Subject: Re: Borla 4.0 xj header?
I have one on my 87. Been running it a couple of years so I don't
really remember if it is lower or not. I'm down in chandler if you want
to take a look at it.
az_vjc@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>Message: 19
> Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:50:25 -0700
> From: "GP" <grant@d...>
>Subject: Borla 4.0 xj header?
>
>Anyone on this list running one? My 1994 factory manifold is cracked
and I'm
>looking for a replacement. I'm curious if it hangs any lower than the
stock
>header/crossover pipe? My engine/tranny skidplate is approximately 1/4"
>below the factory crossover pipe. If the borla header is any lower, it's
>going to interfere with the skidplate. Thanks for any input.
Grant
>
--
Leonard K. Pennock
Those who walk bravely through life, unafraid of loss or failure,
find that they very rarely lose or fail.
75960 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:11am
Subject: What I did this weekend
I hesitate to post these pictures because the light was bad and the quality
is poor, but, ...
http://members.cox.net/jeepin1/DSC01562a.JPG
http://members.cox.net/jeepin1/DSC01564a.JPG
Wahoo, the engine, tranny & transfer case are in. I have a few details to
work out still, fit and finish stuff. For the most part they are good to go.
Almost time to re-think the springs, lol. The front must have went down
close to 3" after setting the V8 on there.
I wanted to thank everyone that emailed me in response to my needing help. I
got through this, or should I say my back did, with little pain just some
stiffness.
I will get some more pictures taken after the sun comes up and I get my mess
cleaned up.
--James
75961 From: onebdjeep <onebdjeep@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:26am
Subject: Bending steel?? Is it for me??
Ok, I have looked at Harbor Freight and it appears that they have some pretty decent prices on metal bending equipment. The question is... Is it really worth the money and time to fabricate your own equiptment? I think that it would be pretty nice to say "Hey look at what I did!!" like ole Michael did. I am sure he will get all the compliments in the world on a trail run "Hey Mike... nice rack!!!" and he will beam with pride.
So how hard was it really Mike? Was it worth it? I have already started to save the money for the bending equip. What about making bumpers and tire carriers and stuff? What about a new cage? Where the hell do ya get the metal to do this?
Thx!
Sean (just too damn cheap to buy the goods!)
Sean Speer
OneBdJeep (someday!!)
'97 TJ with killer mods to come!!!
(umm... will drink beer for Jeep parts!!!)
75962 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:31am
Subject: Re: What I did this weekend
Nice work James. That D300 would look a lot better in blue though.
:-)
Chris
On Monday, January 20, 2003, at 07:11 AM, James Towle wrote:
> I hesitate to post these pictures because the light was bad and the
> quality
> is poor, but, ...
> http://members.cox.net/jeepin1/DSC01562a.JPG
> http://members.cox.net/jeepin1/DSC01564a.JPG
>
> Wahoo, the engine, tranny & transfer case are in. I have a few details
> to
> work out still, fit and finish stuff. For the most part they are good
> to go.
> Almost time to re-think the springs, lol. The front must have went down
> close to 3" after setting the V8 on there.
> I wanted to thank everyone that emailed me in response to my needing
> help. I
> got through this, or should I say my back did, with little pain just
> some
> stiffness.
> I will get some more pictures taken after the sun comes up and I get
> my mess
> cleaned up.
>
> --James
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
75963 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:25am
Subject: Idler Pulley needed
I need an idler pulley for my AC/onboardair. The pulley pushes against the
back side of the AC belt and is bolted to the alternator bracket. My '72
Wagoneer had one of these on the 360 that was in it and the mounting
brackets I bought for this 360 need one but, the pulley was not included.
Does anyone know where to get one of these? Simon (4 Wheelers) do you all
have one? I am not sure what year engine these brackets came off, so it is
kind of hard going to one of the "local" parts stores and asking.
TIA
--James
75964 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...> <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:33am
Subject: Re: What I did this weekend
Shoot, I was supposed to paint it. The black was just a primer coat.
One more thing to add to my list. LOL
Thanks,
--James
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...> wrote:
> Nice work James. That D300 would look a lot better in blue though.
>
> :-)
>
> Chris
>
> On Monday, January 20, 2003, at 07:11 AM, James Towle wrote:
>
> > I hesitate to post these pictures because the light was bad and
the
> > quality
> > is poor, but, ...
> > http://members.cox.net/jeepin1/DSC01562a.JPG
> > http://members.cox.net/jeepin1/DSC01564a.JPG
> >
> > Wahoo, the engine, tranny & transfer case are in. I have a few
details
> > to
> > work out still, fit and finish stuff. For the most part they are
good
> > to go.
> > Almost time to re-think the springs, lol. The front must have
went down
> > close to 3" after setting the V8 on there.
> > I wanted to thank everyone that emailed me in response to my
needing
> > help. I
> > got through this, or should I say my back did, with little pain
just
> > some
> > stiffness.
> > I will get some more pictures taken after the sun comes up and I
get
> > my mess
> > cleaned up.
> >
> > --James
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
75965 From: Robert Peck <rlpii@q...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:42am
Subject: Re: Idler Pulley needed
James,
Go see Dave at AMC 4 X 4 Salvage in Glendale (6741 W. Belmont, just south of
Grand & Northern Aves.) 623-937-5899. I needed one for my 360 . . . .we had
to do some "exploring in the back", but finally found one that worked. This
was a couple of years ago so I don't know what they have now. But if 4
Wheelers doesn't have it, give Dave a call.
HTH
Bob
74 CJ-5
CANT W8
James Towle wrote:
> I need an idler pulley for my AC/onboardair. The pulley pushes against the
> back side of the AC belt and is bolted to the alternator bracket. My '72
> Wagoneer had one of these on the 360 that was in it and the mounting
> brackets I bought for this 360 need one but, the pulley was not included.
> Does anyone know where to get one of these? Simon (4 Wheelers) do you all
> have one? I am not sure what year engine these brackets came off, so it is
> kind of hard going to one of the "local" parts stores and asking.
>
> TIA
>
> --James
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
75966 From: Trujillo, Jeff <jeff.trujillo@m...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:23am
Subject: RE: run Sunday?
Hey Frank and Theon,
Sorry about not making any runs this weekend. My wife's best friends' mom
past away and she thought she would have to fly to maryland this weekend.
Plus Sunday I finally made myself a rear bumper. Turned out real nice and
sturdy. I even added some mounts for D rings when I get them. Pics will be
up soon when I get them developed. Next will be a front bumber and sliders.
Trying to come up with more metal for the front first though. Tread Lightly!
Jeffrey A. Trujillo
Field Service Representative
MD Helicopters, Inc.
jeff.trujillo@m...
Voice:(480)346-6249
Fax:(480)346-6813
-----Original Message-----
From: BADAZXJ XJArizona [mailto:badazxj@m...]
Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 10:41 PM
To: Jeff.Trujillo@m...
Subject: run Sunday?
We are going to run FR42 tomorrow if you want to go. We are meeting at 10 am
I -17 & carefree highway. Its supposed to be a fun trail although I have
never ran it. I am bringing Anthony so bring the kids if you can. Hope you
can make it.
Frank
BadAzXj@m...
>From: "Trujillo, Jeff" <Jeff.Trujillo@m...>
>To: 'BADAZXJ XJArizona' <badazxj@m...>
>Subject: RE: run today
>Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 06:51:47 -0700
>
>Whichever will run on the PC. How much do you want for the CD?
>Jeff Trujillo
>858 S. Hobson
>Mesa, AZ 85204
>
>Jeffrey A. Trujillo
>Field Service Representative
>MD Helicopters, Inc.
>jeff.trujillo@m...
>Voice:(480)346-6249
>Fax:(480)346-6813
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: BADAZXJ XJArizona [mailto:badazxj@m...]
>Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 10:29 PM
>To: jeff.trujillo@m...
>Subject: run today
>
>
>
>Jeff,
>
>Send me your mailing address and I will drop a cd in the mail for you. Do
>you want VCD or MPEG/AVI format?
>
>Thanks
>
>Frank
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ _______________
>MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*.
>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
>which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
>material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
>taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
>entities other than the intended recipient or employees of
>MD Helicopters, Inc. is prohibited. If you received this in error, please
>contact the sender by email and delete the material from any computer..
__________________________________________________ _______________
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which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
entities other than the intended recipient or employees of
MD Helicopters, Inc. is prohibited. If you received this in error, please
contact the sender by email and delete the material from any computer..
75967 From: Trujillo, Jeff <jeff.trujillo@m...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:26am
Subject: RE: Re:Calling all welding gurus
Count me in. You can never know to much!!!
Jeffrey A. Trujillo
Field Service Representative
MD Helicopters, Inc.
jeff.trujillo@m...
Voice:(480)346-6249
Fax:(480)346-6813
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Mish [mailto:yldkat55@h...]
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 8:56 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re:Calling all welding gurus
Hunter knows how to weld??
Hey, you think he could teach me?
I wanna go too!
Bill Mish
----- Original Message -----
From: Neal Han**** <mailto:gotrox@c...>
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com <mailto:az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 8:24 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re:Calling all welding gurus
Yeah John, count me in too. I love to learn how you bootyfab sh?t together!!
<snicker snicker>
Let me know if you need any help.
Neal Han****
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
entities other than the intended recipient or employees of
MD Helicopters, Inc. is prohibited. If you received this in error, please
contact the sender by email and delete the material from any computer..
75968 From: Scott Kruize <skruize@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:06am
Subject: RE: What I did this weekend
Hi James,
Bolt that orange bucket in and take it for a spin ;D
It's looking really good. I can't wait to see the finished results.
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: James Towle [mailto:James.Towle@a...]
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 7:12 AM
To: AZ_VJC
Subject: [az_vjc] What I did this weekend
I hesitate to post these pictures because the light was bad and the
quality is poor, but, ... http://members.cox.net/jeepin1/DSC01562a.JPG
http://members.cox.net/jeepin1/DSC01564a.JPG
Wahoo, the engine, tranny & transfer case are in. I have a few details
to work out still, fit and finish stuff. For the most part they are good
to go. Almost time to re-think the springs, lol. The front must have
went down close to 3" after setting the V8 on there. I wanted to thank
everyone that emailed me in response to my needing help. I got through
this, or should I say my back did, with little pain just some stiffness.
I will get some more pictures taken after the sun comes up and I get my
mess cleaned up.
--James
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
75969 From: Trujillo, Jeff <jeff.trujillo@m...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:52am
Subject: RE: Bending steel?? Is it for me??
I just made a bumper this weekend and it looks really nice. Yes, its worth
it to do it yourself. In my own opinion. Yea, its nice to just go buy
something (when you have the money) but its also nice to look back at
something that you built and watch it work. I would rather build it myself
than just bolt something up. That might be nice and dandy for some people
but not me. Its a challenge and thats what I like. I just got a welder a
month ago and now I need a cutting torch to be fully dangerous. LOL Wouldn't
mind a metal bender also and a lot other things!
Jeffrey A. Trujillo
Field Service Representative
MD Helicopters, Inc.
jeff.trujillo@m...
Voice:(480)346-6249
Fax:(480)346-6813
-----Original Message-----
From: onebdjeep [mailto:onebdjeep@c...]
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 7:26 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Bending steel?? Is it for me??
Ok, I have looked at Harbor Freight and it appears that they have some
pretty decent prices on metal bending equipment. The question is... Is it
really worth the money and time to fabricate your own equiptment? I think
that it would be pretty nice to say "Hey look at what I did!!" like ole
Michael did. I am sure he will get all the compliments in the world on a
trail run "Hey Mike... nice rack!!!" and he will beam with pride.
So how hard was it really Mike? Was it worth it? I have already started to
save the money for the bending equip. What about making bumpers and tire
carriers and stuff? What about a new cage? Where the hell do ya get the
metal to do this?
Thx!
Sean (just too damn cheap to buy the goods!)
Sean Speer
OneBdJeep (someday!!)
'97 TJ with killer mods to come!!!
(umm... will drink beer for Jeep parts!!!)
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
entities other than the intended recipient or employees of
MD Helicopters, Inc. is prohibited. If you received this in error, please
contact the sender by email and delete the material from any computer..
75970 From: Scott Kruize <skruize@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:14am
Subject: RE: Bending steel?? Is it for me??
I went to www.harborfreight.com typed in the word 'bender' in the search box and 10 results come up. Just out of curiosity, Which of these are you looking at?
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: onebdjeep [mailto:onebdjeep@cox.net]
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 7:26 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Bending steel?? Is it for me??
Ok, I have looked at Harbor Freight and it appears that they have some pretty decent prices on metal bending equipment. The question is... Is it really worth the money and time to fabricate your own equiptment? I think that it would be pretty nice to say "Hey look at what I did!!" like ole Michael did. I am sure he will get all the compliments in the world on a trail run "Hey Mike... nice rack!!!" and he will beam with pride.
So how hard was it really Mike? Was it worth it? I have already started to save the money for the bending equip. What about making bumpers and tire carriers and stuff? What about a new cage? Where the hell do ya get the metal to do this?
Thx!
Sean (just too damn cheap to buy the goods!)
Sean Speer
OneBdJeep (someday!!)
'97 TJ with killer mods to come!!!
(umm... will drink beer for Jeep parts!!!)
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
75971 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...> <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:17am
Subject: Re: What I did this weekend
LOL, I have to find some way to mount the steering wheel.
But really, I am waiting on my HEI to be delivered. I found a guy in
Ohio that will take a Chevy V8 HEI and modify it to work on an AMC V8
for $65 +shipping. I sent the distributor off last week and hope to
get back in a couple of weeks. With the "standard" GM type altenator
and the GM HEI the wiring should be a breeze.
I can't wait.
--James
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Kruize" <skruize@c...> wrote:
> Hi James,
>
> Bolt that orange bucket in and take it for a spin ;D
>
> It's looking really good. I can't wait to see the finished results.
>
> Scott K
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Towle [mailto:James.Towle@a...]
> Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 7:12 AM
> To: AZ_VJC
> Subject: [az_vjc] What I did this weekend
>
>
> I hesitate to post these pictures because the light was bad and the
> quality is poor, but, ...
http://members.cox.net/jeepin1/DSC01562a.JPG
> http://members.cox.net/jeepin1/DSC01564a.JPG
>
> Wahoo, the engine, tranny & transfer case are in. I have a few
details
> to work out still, fit and finish stuff. For the most part they are
good
> to go. Almost time to re-think the springs, lol. The front must have
> went down close to 3" after setting the V8 on there. I wanted to
thank
> everyone that emailed me in response to my needing help. I got
through
> this, or should I say my back did, with little pain just some
stiffness.
> I will get some more pictures taken after the sun comes up and I
get my
> mess cleaned up.
>
> --James
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
75972 From: Siade, Randy <randy.siade@u...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:18am
Subject: RE: Idler Pulley needed
I bought mine down at Pep boys. They have them for the 15XXX and 17xxx
series belts.
-----Original Message-----
From: James Towle [mailto:James.Towle@a...]
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 7:26 AM
To: AZ_VJC
Subject: [az_vjc] Idler Pulley needed
I need an idler pulley for my AC/onboardair. The pulley pushes against the
back side of the AC belt and is bolted to the alternator bracket. My '72
Wagoneer had one of these on the 360 that was in it and the mounting
brackets I bought for this 360 need one but, the pulley was not included.
Does anyone know where to get one of these? Simon (4 Wheelers) do you all
have one? I am not sure what year engine these brackets came off, so it is
kind of hard going to one of the "local" parts stores and asking.
TIA
--James
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
75973 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:24am
Subject: [TR] Cleanup - Saturday, January 25, 2003 - Reminder
Hello All,
Robert (Roy) Rogers is leading a Cleanup trail run on Saturday, January 25, 2003.
When: Meet at 9 AM
Where: West side of Table Mesa exit beyond end of pavement.
Rating: 2.0
Length: unknown
CB Channel: 4
Organized by the Phoenix Four Whelers in cooperation with the Arizona State Land Department (ASLD), the Lake Pleasant Regional Recreation Area (LPRRA), and the Bureau of Land Management (BLM).
The ASLD will provide dumpsters and trash bags, the LPRRA will provida a truck to haul away tires, and the Phoenix Four Wheelers will provide beverages.
any questions contact Ron Karlinsky (623-374-9443)
This trail run is a cleanup effort to help improve our environment and demonstrate our care for the land we use. Read the description for details about where and when. Click on the date below to see the description of the event.
Click Here To Add Your Name to the Sign Up List
Thank You,
- The AzVJC Website
75974 From: Michael Beckham <jeepnut7261@h...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:25am
Subject: Re: Bending steel?? Is it for me??
This was my first effort in home-made. I borrowed the bender (hydraulic hand pumped) from a friend. I practiced with a spare piece of tubing till I felt I could judge where to plan bends, then started for real. It took me 2 days, and really was time-consuming as I had no experience to draw on, and had to really plan each one.
The factors I was considering was what I had seen and heard about other aftermarket roof racks available. That and I didn't want to drill a bunch of holes in my jeep.
The basket was easiest, as all I needed to do was make 2 squares, and then join them to form a basket, similar to the Warrior rack I saw in the mags. Mine is approx 60 " wide by 66" long, 6 " tall. this gives me room to place things and secure them down. I attached the support to the rocker skid, and the 2 bolts for the door hinge/frame support with grade 8 bolts.
The basket is removable, leaving the support in place where I can mount lights etc, but still just 4 bolts and it comes off too.
After this, I think I will put the spare on top, and leave the back clean.
tire carrier involves a hinge, and I will have to think on that.
I spent 70 bucks on tubing.
I had a ball! (grunt snort bark!)
----- Original Message -----
From: onebdjeep
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 7:26 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Bending steel?? Is it for me??
Ok, I have looked at Harbor Freight and it appears that they have some pretty decent prices on metal bending equipment. The question is... Is it really worth the money and time to fabricate your own equiptment? I think that it would be pretty nice to say "Hey look at what I did!!" like ole Michael did. I am sure he will get all the compliments in the world on a trail run "Hey Mike... nice rack!!!" and he will beam with pride.
So how hard was it really Mike? Was it worth it? I have already started to save the money for the bending equip. What about making bumpers and tire carriers and stuff? What about a new cage? Where the hell do ya get the metal to do this?
Thx!
Sean (just too damn cheap to buy the goods!)
Sean Speer
OneBdJeep (someday!!)
'97 TJ with killer mods to come!!!
(umm... will drink beer for Jeep parts!!!)
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
75975 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...> <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:35am
Subject: Re: Idler Pulley needed
I guess I am confused on why a pulley on the back side of a belt will
be different depending on the V of the belt. I will go down there
though, I have another part to buy from them.
Thanks,
--James
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Siade, Randy" <randy.siade@u...>
wrote:
> I bought mine down at Pep boys. They have them for the 15XXX and
17xxx
> series belts.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Towle [mailto:James.Towle@a...]
> Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 7:26 AM
> To: AZ_VJC
> Subject: [az_vjc] Idler Pulley needed
>
>
> I need an idler pulley for my AC/onboardair. The pulley pushes
against the
> back side of the AC belt and is bolted to the alternator bracket.
My '72
> Wagoneer had one of these on the 360 that was in it and the mounting
> brackets I bought for this 360 need one but, the pulley was not
included.
> Does anyone know where to get one of these? Simon (4 Wheelers) do
you all
> have one? I am not sure what year engine these brackets came off,
so it is
> kind of hard going to one of the "local" parts stores and asking.
>
> TIA
>
> --James
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
75976 From: <gotrox@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:37am
Subject: RE: Trail blockage, Rock stackers
Many of you remember the big rain we had at Jamboree in 2000. Every wash in the area was running wall to wall. After it was all over with, the sand in the washed dammed up behind the areas of the wash that had rocks stacked. In lower Woodpeck, the sand backed up in the area where people sit and watch, there is 2' of sand in the bottom now.
My point is this, you will never stop people from stacking or unstacking rocks. To sit here and complain is futile and a waist of energy. We all know the rock stacking issue and we all agree that it is a problem. If you want a challenge on a trail, you will have to unstack. I have done it in the past and I'm sure I will have to do it in the future. Jumping on John S. over his opinion isn't going to solve anything. If anything go out this weekend and do the clean up with the Phoenix 4Wheeler at Table Mesa. That is much more value added than whining about rock stacking at this time.
Also if you are going to flame me over this post. Do it off line. We don't need anymore banter about this here.
Neal Han****
Arizona Rock Crawlers
75952 From: John Stewart <landuse@u...>
Date: Sun Jan 19, 2003 11:00pm
Subject: Re: Trail blockage, Rock stackers
There is a "trail courtesy" factor involved. I am in support of a
universal trail rating system.
My concern is that any modification of the trails are going to be
misinterpreted.
Whether you are in Arizona, California, or any other state, injury on
a trail is going to be a concern. It has been cited by GAG interests
in EA/EIS comments. Just as liquid spills and broken glass left
behind has been cited as environmental degradation.
I am not arguing the manners issue. Responsible use of the trails is
the issue. My point is against the general belief that only extreme
trails are to be allowed and that all trails should be hard. We need
to educate and enforce the proper manners with respect to trail
courtesy. I have a problem with who ever pulled the rocks down.
That is trail damage of the worst order in that it is modifying the
surrounding area. And, if you have those actions on a regular basis,
they are going to be addressed as environmental damage.
By the same token, coming in later and removing all the rock to make
the trail harder can similar problems.
It is the issue of stacking and unstacking before continuing.
At 8:18 PM -0700 1/19/03, Sandee McCullen wrote:
>John,
>I cannot truly believe this came from you........ if we are ALL to use the
>SAME trails why os UFWDA stiving for a "universal" rating system and/or
>signing system for trails. ????? Why would anyone spend thousands of
>dollars on aftermarket equipment...... i.e., lockers, lifts, tires, fuel
>injection, Dana 60 axles, etc, etc if we ALL should do the same level trail
>because it's PUBLIC. Mother Nature didn't make all the land the
>same........... why should we?? Looks to me like Mother Nature is a better
>judge of "challenge" than you.
>
>Todd did not say anything about "MAKING A TRAIL MORE DIFFICULT".......... he
>referred to the vehicles traveling on or into a trail situation ABOVE their
>capabilities ............ driving experience and/or vehicle capabilities.
>These guys are literally paving and grooming ALL trails to the general level
>of a 2.0 on a 1-5 difficulty rating. THIS is what must stop. No one has a
>problem re "throwing a rock now and then to help a vehicle through a
>difficult spot" but courtesy on the trail would allow for those rocks to be
>taken out to allow the next vehicle the "challenge" the trail is rated for.
>Pulling down rock walls from the side of the trail to "fill in holes or to
>make ramps" is uncalled for and is what we're talking about. THIS is what
>will get our trails closed................... NOT RESPONSIBLE USE !!!
>
>The issue at hand came from a report that two large boulders were now in the
>middle of the waterfall of a 4.5 rated trail. These boulders were NOT
>brought down from the side to make the trail MORE difficult........... they
>were trying to make it easier by filling in holes or creaves'. What Todd
>and his group of 4-wheelers did was relocate the boulders to the point where
>the trail could again be used. With the boulders in place NO ONE was going
>to do the trail.............. extreme or not.
>
>I don't know about Cal or surrounding areas but Arizona land agencies are
>NOT looking at "closing trails because of difficulty". Actually they are
>very supportive of "rock crawling", if done responsibly. They want the
>trails rated and they ask the help of the recreationists to "patrol and/or
>educate our fellow users" about trail ethics and the use of trails within
>their capabilities.
>
>I guess bottom line is simply put:................ rocking, paving or in
>general, grooming a trail because their stock vehicle cannot traverse it is
>outright BAD TRAIL MANNERS!! Making by-passes and destroying the
>resourses around an obstacle or outside the parameters of a trail is what
>will close our trails............ NOT responsible use. We need trails of
>ALL difficulty levels to keep up with the numbers on public lands today and
>the challenge the recreationists require. Paving everything to the same
>level is ludicrous, if not outright stupid.
>
>Re rock crawling course being "set up and removed"............... where
>have you been John??? I don't know of one course that has moved anywhere.
>The courses being used by all the rock crawling organizations are simply the
>"lay of nature". Showing responsible use of these areas is what it's about.
>According to you we need to go in and "ROCK STACK" our rock crawling areas
>so your stock vehicle can use it. Go away John............
>
>If you come to Arizona and rock any trails here you'll fight with me!!!
>
>Sandee
>
>>
>> I will take you to task on the central issue you are advocating:
>>
>> If you are saying that the ONLY people on the trails are the ones
>> that want the extreme trail, you are no different than the GAG that
>> wants no one but them on foot on the trail.
>>
>> If it is a trail on PUBLIC LAND and it is a recognized trail, making
>> the trail impassible except for a modified rig is a sure sign to get
>> the trail closed.
>>
>> I agree that people with stock vehicles have no business on many of
>> the trails. By the same token, if you are going to limit access to
>> special class of rigs, you are asking for a trail closure, especially
>> if a case of bodily injury or death occurs.
>>
>> BLM is not going to keep a trail open if it is cited as a liability.
>> Okay, now start the argument about how people need to have their own
>> insurance, yada, yada, yada and they should be responsible, yada,
>> yada, yada..
>>
>> Making a trail difficult has caused a major problem with the Little
>> Sluice on the Rubicon.
>>
>> Okay, you want extreme trails? Join the Rockcrawler groups and have
>> at it on a course. Keep in mind that a course can be set up and
>> removed. Trails are no different, they can be removed and will be
>> remove when they become a liability.
>>
>> You need to remember that access to trails on PUBLIC LANDS needs to
>> be available to the PUBLIC. If you are going to advocate in land
>> management plans that trails be kept for extreme use, you are playing
>> into the GAGs hand. The argument becomes a losing battle because the
>> BLM is not going to keep trails for a few (elite CAPABILITY) at the
>> expense of many.
>>
>> I have used the argument about the number of 4x4 recreationists that
>> are desiring access to trails and trying to say that the numbers
>> demand that trails be kept open as opposed to the limited number of
>> hikers that would otherwise have the area to themselves.
>>
>> Now, you want to take the set of potential trail users and limit that
>> to the few who want extreme trails. Sorry, I will go out and help
>> stack the rocks so that more people from all skill levels can use the
>> trails. That is the only way we will be able to keep them open.
>> Access for ALL.
>>
>>
>> --
>> John Stewart
>> Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
>> Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
>> Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com
>> Webmaster, Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
--
John Stewart
Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com
Webmaster, Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
75953 From: John Stewart <landuse@u...>
Date: Sun Jan 19, 2003 11:31pm
Subject: RE: Re: Trail blockage, Rock stackers
Again, my concern stems from what I understood to be a general
feeling that rocks were being removed to make the trails harder.
I support a standard trail rating system. Modifying trails is an
problem that we have to deal with. Understanding that Joe Public is
going to buy a 4x4 and head for the nearest trail is something we
have to accept.
They are the ones that will be forcing the argument of difficulty of
trail when they don't know better. You may run the trails and
understand them; Joe Public is the new guy that is going to complain
to the land manager. Joe Public is the one going to be hurt when he
tries to move rock to make a place easier. Joe Public is the one
going to push the liability issue. Yes, it has been done.
From the information I have on Arizona, you do have a variety of
trails not found in most other states. You also do not have the GAG
pressures other states are facing. The Center for Biological
Diversity (out of Tuscon) has been a wreaking ball on California
trails. The Skye Island Alliance proudly advertises roads they have
ripped in the forests southeast of Tuscon.
Again, I am not arguing the fact that people need to practice proper
trail manners and unstack what they stack. I also believe people
should have a rig capable for the trails. I have seen many climbs
out of desert washes that have been chewed to hell by an open diff
vehicle and then, someone makes a bypass.
These trail modification actions are what will get trails closed.
At 11:50 PM -0700 1/19/03, Scott Kruize wrote:
>John,
>
>Todd wasn't "making the trail harder", he was restoring it back to the
>trail we all know and recognize. (Axle Alley is a class 5 trail on a 1-5
>rating system.) And from what I've seen that's not an elitist attitude,
>but rather frustration at people who stack up ramps but don't tear them
>down because they shouldn't be on a class 5 trail.
>
>Arizona has probably the most diverse and largest number of public
>trails anywhere in the country. Right near Axle Alley are countless
>other trails that are easier. Axle Alley, Box Canyon, Coke Ovens, Lower
>Ajax, Martinez, Highway to Hell and Woodpecker are very close to each
>other and offer varying difficulties from stock (Box Canyon) all the way
>up to highly modified (Axle Alley and Highway to Hell). Those of us that
>run these trails understand their ratings and what type of vehicle that
>is needed. We'd like to maintain these ratings for future users to enjoy
>the trail like we did years ago. That's not asking too much is it?
>
>Regards,
>
>Scott Kruize
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: John Stewart [mailto:landuse@u...]
>Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 11:41 PM
>To: Gary_Pugsley <gary_pugsley@h...>; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Trail blockage, Rock stackers
>
>
>You are misunderstanding a few points.
>
>1 - I believe vehicles should be prepared for the trail.
>
>2 - I do not believe EVERY trail should be hardcore extreme.
>
>3 - I am not saying "pave" the trails. I am saying that if you
>insist on extreme trails and only extreme trails, you will have not
>trails.
>
>My opening statement was "If you are saying that the ONLY people on
>the trails are the ones that want the extreme trail, you are no
>different than the GAG that wants no one but them on foot on the
>trail."
>
>That is my point of concern. If you are going to only allow a
>certain class of modified rig on the trail, you will have a
>diminishing number of people and less of a chance to keep the trails
>open.
>
>Any stacking (or unstacking) of rocks is going to lead to problems.
>That is the central point around the Little Sluice on the Rubicon.
>Somebody felt is was too easy; therefore they took it upon themselves
>to make it harder, to keep the unmodified rigs out of their play
>area, and dumped some large rocks in the trail..
>
>This is the attitude that I am disagreeing with. In this case, did
>someone feel it was too hard and decide to make it easy? So, they
>fill in a few holes. Now, Todd goes around to various trails
>unstacking rocks. Both actions are going to lead to problems. Just
>as making a bypass around a tough spot will lead to problems.
>
>Central to this issue is the act of modifying trail; whether to make
>them harder or easier. Both are actions that will draw the attention
>of the land manager and lead to environmental considerations for
>closing trails. There is specific guidance within the BLM manual
>(and the Forest Service manual) dealing with trail construction and
>maintenance.
>
>And, yes I do disagree with the attitude that you have the right to
>modify a trail because you think it should be harder. I also
>disagree with modifying the trail to make it easier. You should be
>prepared.
>
>As you are from Arizona, you should be familiar with the Skye Island
>Alliance. Check out their Road Ripper Manual. They are making
>trails impassible.
>
>
>At 5:00 AM +0000 1/20/03, Gary_Pugsley <gary_pugsley@h...> wrote:
>>WOW. This guy is the Environmental Affairs Director for UFWDA?
> >Where did they get him, The Sierra Club? Makes me wonder what the
>>UFWDA's stance on paving trails, so my parents can take their buick
>>on it, is. If it is anything like Mr. Stewart's, we are all
>>screwed. If newbies (like myself) all listened to him, we would lose
>>access to all our trails pretty damn quick.
>>
>>Like Jim from Tucson said, I have a stock TJ. That's why I did not
>>know what trail this waterfall was on when the damage was shown to me.
>
>>I go where I have the tools to go, and save the other trails for more
>>properly equipped rigs.
>>
>>Did he really just tell us that we should "pave" all the trails?
>>Do all the associations he is so proud to be affiliated with (the
>>ones under his name in every post) know that this is his way
>>of "protecting" our right to run trails on public land? Don't we
>>have a responsibility to let these groups know what he is advocating,
>>so they can decide if he really is the right person for the jobs?
>>
>>John, Maybe we all misunderstood. Maybe you were being sarcastic.
>>Maybe you just weren't thinking. Maybe, like Stu said, someone
>>hacked your account. If so, please explain yourself. If this is
>>truly your belief, please, go away. You will quickly do more harm
>>than you could ever imagine. With "friends" like you, who needs the
>>greenies? You will have us all climbing speed bumps at the mall in a
>>year.
>>
>>
>>Gary
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I will take you to task on the central issue you are advocating:
>>>
>> > If you are saying that the ONLY people on the trails are the ones
>>> that want the extreme trail, you are no different than the GAG that
>> > wants no one but them on foot on the trail.
>>>
>>> If it is a trail on PUBLIC LAND and it is a recognized trail,
>>making
>>> the trail impassible except for a modified rig is a sure sign to
>>get
>>> the trail closed.
>>>
>>> I agree that people with stock vehicles have no business on many of
>
>>> the trails. By the same token, if you are going to limit access to
>>> special class of rigs, you are asking for a trail closure,
>>especially
>>> if a case of bodily injury or death occurs.
>>>
>>> BLM is not going to keep a trail open if it is cited as a
>>liability.
>>> Okay, now start the argument about how people need to have their
>>own
>>> insurance, yada, yada, yada and they should be responsible, yada,
>>> yada, yada..
>>>
>>> Making a trail difficult has caused a major problem with the Little
>
>>> Sluice on the Rubicon.
>>>
>>> Okay, you want extreme trails? Join the Rockcrawler groups and
>>have
>>> at it on a course. Keep in mind that a course can be set up and
>>> removed. Trails are no different, they can be removed and will be
>>> remove when they become a liability.
>>>
>>> You need to remember that access to trails on PUBLIC LANDS needs to
>
>>> be available to the PUBLIC. If you are going to advocate in land
>>> management plans that trails be kept for extreme use, you are
>>playing
>>> into the GAGs hand. The argument becomes a losing battle because
> >the
>>> BLM is not going to keep trails for a few (elite CAPABILITY) at the
>
>>> expense of many.
>>>
>>> I have used the argument about the number of 4x4 recreationists
>>that
>>> are desiring access to trails and trying to say that the numbers
>>> demand that trails be kept open as opposed to the limited number of
>>> hikers that would otherwise have the area to themselves.
>>>
>>> Now, you want to take the set of potential trail users and limit
>>that
>>> to the few who want extreme trails. Sorry, I will go out and help
>>> stack the rocks so that more people from all skill levels can use
>>the
>>> trails. That is the only way we will be able to keep them open.
>>> Access for ALL.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> John Stewart
>>> Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
>>> Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
>>> Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com Webmaster,
>>> Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>--
>John Stewart
>Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org Recreation
>Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com Webmaster, Tierra
>del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com Webmaster, Jeep-L:
>http://www.jeep-l.net
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--
John Stewart
Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com
Webmaster, Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net
75954 From: Scott Kruize <skruize@c...>
Date: Sun Jan 19, 2003 11:32pm
Subject: RE: Re: Trail blockage, Rock stackers
Jphn,
I figured it was just a misunderstanding. Tends to happen easily on the
internet.
Glad we finally cleared this up.
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: John Stewart [mailto:jstewart@c...]
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 12:31 AM
To: Scott Kruize; 'John Stewart'; gary_pugsley@h...;
az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Trail blockage, Rock stackers
Again, my concern stems from what I understood to be a general
feeling that rocks were being removed to make the trails harder.
I support a standard trail rating system. Modifying trails is an
problem that we have to deal with. Understanding that Joe Public is
going to buy a 4x4 and head for the nearest trail is something we
have to accept.
They are the ones that will be forcing the argument of difficulty of
trail when they don't know better. You may run the trails and
understand them; Joe Public is the new guy that is going to complain
to the land manager. Joe Public is the one going to be hurt when he
tries to move rock to make a place easier. Joe Public is the one
going to push the liability issue. Yes, it has been done.
From the information I have on Arizona, you do have a variety of
trails not found in most other states. You also do not have the GAG
pressures other states are facing. The Center for Biological
Diversity (out of Tuscon) has been a wreaking ball on California
trails. The Skye Island Alliance proudly advertises roads they have
ripped in the forests southeast of Tuscon.
Again, I am not arguing the fact that people need to practice proper
trail manners and unstack what they stack. I also believe people
should have a rig capable for the trails. I have seen many climbs
out of desert washes that have been chewed to hell by an open diff
vehicle and then, someone makes a bypass.
These trail modification actions are what will get trails closed.
At 11:50 PM -0700 1/19/03, Scott Kruize wrote:
>John,
>
>Todd wasn't "making the trail harder", he was restoring it back to the
>trail we all know and recognize. (Axle Alley is a class 5 trail on a
>1-5 rating system.) And from what I've seen that's not an elitist
>attitude, but rather frustration at people who stack up ramps but don't
>tear them down because they shouldn't be on a class 5 trail.
>
>Arizona has probably the most diverse and largest number of public
>trails anywhere in the country. Right near Axle Alley are countless
>other trails that are easier. Axle Alley, Box Canyon, Coke Ovens, Lower
>Ajax, Martinez, Highway to Hell and Woodpecker are very close to each
>other and offer varying difficulties from stock (Box Canyon) all the
>way up to highly modified (Axle Alley and Highway to Hell). Those of us
>that run these trails understand their ratings and what type of vehicle
>that is needed. We'd like to maintain these ratings for future users to
>enjoy the trail like we did years ago. That's not asking too much is
>it?
>
>Regards,
>
>Scott Kruize
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: John Stewart [mailto:landuse@u...]
>Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 11:41 PM
>To: Gary_Pugsley <gary_pugsley@h...>; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Trail blockage, Rock stackers
>
>
>You are misunderstanding a few points.
>
>1 - I believe vehicles should be prepared for the trail.
>
>2 - I do not believe EVERY trail should be hardcore extreme.
>
>3 - I am not saying "pave" the trails. I am saying that if you insist
>on extreme trails and only extreme trails, you will have not trails.
>
>My opening statement was "If you are saying that the ONLY people on the
>trails are the ones that want the extreme trail, you are no different
>than the GAG that wants no one but them on foot on the trail."
>
>That is my point of concern. If you are going to only allow a certain
>class of modified rig on the trail, you will have a diminishing number
>of people and less of a chance to keep the trails open.
>
>Any stacking (or unstacking) of rocks is going to lead to problems.
>That is the central point around the Little Sluice on the Rubicon.
>Somebody felt is was too easy; therefore they took it upon themselves
>to make it harder, to keep the unmodified rigs out of their play area,
>and dumped some large rocks in the trail..
>
>This is the attitude that I am disagreeing with. In this case, did
>someone feel it was too hard and decide to make it easy? So, they fill
>in a few holes. Now, Todd goes around to various trails unstacking
>rocks. Both actions are going to lead to problems. Just as making a
>bypass around a tough spot will lead to problems.
>
>Central to this issue is the act of modifying trail; whether to make
>them harder or easier. Both are actions that will draw the attention
>of the land manager and lead to environmental considerations for
>closing trails. There is specific guidance within the BLM manual (and
>the Forest Service manual) dealing with trail construction and
>maintenance.
>
>And, yes I do disagree with the attitude that you have the right to
>modify a trail because you think it should be harder. I also disagree
>with modifying the trail to make it easier. You should be prepared.
>
>As you are from Arizona, you should be familiar with the Skye Island
>Alliance. Check out their Road Ripper Manual. They are making trails
>impassible.
>
>
>At 5:00 AM +0000 1/20/03, Gary_Pugsley <gary_pugsley@h...>
>wrote:
>>WOW. This guy is the Environmental Affairs Director for UFWDA?
> >Where did they get him, The Sierra Club? Makes me wonder what the
>>UFWDA's stance on paving trails, so my parents can take their buick on
>>it, is. If it is anything like Mr. Stewart's, we are all screwed. If
>>newbies (like myself) all listened to him, we would lose access to all
>>our trails pretty damn quick.
>>
>>Like Jim from Tucson said, I have a stock TJ. That's why I did not
>>know what trail this waterfall was on when the damage was shown to me.
>
>>I go where I have the tools to go, and save the other trails for more
>>properly equipped rigs.
>>
>>Did he really just tell us that we should "pave" all the trails? Do
>>all the associations he is so proud to be affiliated with (the ones
>>under his name in every post) know that this is his way of
>>"protecting" our right to run trails on public land? Don't we have a
>>responsibility to let these groups know what he is advocating, so they
>>can decide if he really is the right person for the jobs?
>>
>>John, Maybe we all misunderstood. Maybe you were being sarcastic.
>>Maybe you just weren't thinking. Maybe, like Stu said, someone hacked
>>your account. If so, please explain yourself. If this is truly your
>>belief, please, go away. You will quickly do more harm than you could
>>ever imagine. With "friends" like you, who needs the greenies? You
>>will have us all climbing speed bumps at the mall in a year.
>>
>>
>>Gary
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I will take you to task on the central issue you are advocating:
>>>
>> > If you are saying that the ONLY people on the trails are the ones
>>> that want the extreme trail, you are no different than the GAG
>>> that
>> > wants no one but them on foot on the trail.
>>>
>>> If it is a trail on PUBLIC LAND and it is a recognized trail,
>>making
>>> the trail impassible except for a modified rig is a sure sign to
>>get
>>> the trail closed.
>>>
>>> I agree that people with stock vehicles have no business on many
>>> of
>
>>> the trails. By the same token, if you are going to limit access to
>>> special class of rigs, you are asking for a trail closure,
>>especially
>>> if a case of bodily injury or death occurs.
>>>
>>> BLM is not going to keep a trail open if it is cited as a
>>liability.
>>> Okay, now start the argument about how people need to have their
>>own
>>> insurance, yada, yada, yada and they should be responsible, yada,
>>> yada, yada..
>>>
>>> Making a trail difficult has caused a major problem with the
>>> Little
>
>>> Sluice on the Rubicon.
>>>
>>> Okay, you want extreme trails? Join the Rockcrawler groups and
>>have
>>> at it on a course. Keep in mind that a course can be set up and
>>> removed. Trails are no different, they can be removed and will be
>>> remove when they become a liability.
>>>
>>> You need to remember that access to trails on PUBLIC LANDS needs
>>> to
>
>>> be available to the PUBLIC. If you are going to advocate in land
>>> management plans that trails be kept for extreme use, you are
>>playing
>>> into the GAGs hand. The argument becomes a losing battle because
> >the
>>> BLM is not going to keep trails for a few (elite CAPABILITY) at
>>> the
>
>>> expense of many.
>>>
>>> I have used the argument about the number of 4x4 recreationists
>>that
>>> are desiring access to trails and trying to say that the numbers
>>> demand that trails be kept open as opposed to the limited number of
>>> hikers that would otherwise have the area to themselves.
>>>
>>> Now, you want to take the set of potential trail users and limit
>>that
>>> to the few who want extreme trails. Sorry, I will go out and help
>>> stack the rocks so that more people from all skill levels can use
>>the
>>> trails. That is the only way we will be able to keep them open.
>>> Access for ALL.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> John Stewart
>>> Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
>>> Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
>>> Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com Webmaster,
>>> Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>--
>John Stewart
>Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org Recreation
>Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com Webmaster,
>Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com Webmaster, Jeep-L:
>http://www.jeep-l.net
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--
John Stewart
Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org Recreation
Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com Webmaster, Tierra
del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com Webmaster, Jeep-L:
http://www.jeep-l.net
75955 From: John Stewart <landuse@u...>
Date: Sun Jan 19, 2003 11:40pm
Subject: RE: Trail blockage, Rock stackers
Part of my point is that stacking (or unstacking) is a trail
alteration that does not support Tread Lightly!
I know land agencies are using the stacking (and unstacking) against us.
Trails will change in challenge as they are used. Some will become
easy and others will become more difficult. Sledgehammer (Johnson
Valley, CA) is a prime example. It has become easier over the years
and not really from stacking rocks.
It is a refreshing to know there are still some land agencies that
recognize and support your "unstacking" effort. That is not a
general attitude among the land managers.
At 8:33 PM -0700 1/19/03, Nasser wrote:
>John,
>
>I disagree with your assessment regarding Todd's post.
>
>I am not sure if you understood the point that he was trying to make. We
>are trying to educate ourselves (OHV) to leave the trails as we find them.
>One of the excuses that BLM has given us for closing trails is the
>alteration of that trail by OHVs. Stacking rocks is altering the trail, and
>altering the trail does not support the TREAD LIGHTLY motto.
>
>Todd is not implying that no one but the elite should run the tough trails.
>Instead he is expressing his frustration with a problem that we have been
>battling for a while. Stacking rock, making ramps, and the just leaving it
>that way is NOT what we want. The trails become less challenging and new
>tough trails are born. The land agencies recognize that and support us in
>the "unstacking" effort (not physically).
>
>If you find Todd's post harsh, you are correct. It is very frustrating to
>have to move tons of rocks that others had stacked. This group is comprised
>of many levels of experience and vehicle capabilities. Just to get an idea
>how many people in this group agree with your assessment about
>"rock-stacking", I will set up a pole to see what the majority thinks!
>
>The land agencies are using the rock-stacking problem against us. I kindly
>ask you to review the responses to your post, and reconsider your comments
>about going out there and stacking rocks. That is very sore subject for
>many of us.
>
>Regards,
>
>Nasser
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: John Stewart [mailto:landuse@u...]
>Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 6:38 PM
>To: TODD MCCULLEN; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Trail blockage, Rock stackers
>
>At 12:38 PM -0700 1/19/03, TODD MCCULLEN wrote:
>>Just need to add my 2 cents, I agree with Sandee 100%
>> Myself and some buddies went out yesterday to play and practice
>>for the upcoming competition, and the day ended up being a work day.
>>We started off on lower woodpecker, and found all the good spots
>>ramped with rocks. We spent the first hour unstacking everything we
>>could find. After that we headed over to bad medicine to check out
>>the waterfall, we decided to do upper Ajax on the way. This ended up
>>in a major derocking of the trail, and it could use more. We spent 2
>>hours just removing rocks from the few hard spots on this trail.
>>We did axle alley, and highway to hell a couple weeks ago and did
>>the same thing. Heck axle alley was so paved it took us about five
>>minutes to get to the first waterfall, when this trail was new it
>>took a couple hours to get this far. This is an example of how the
>>tough trails are being paved by people & rigs that did not belong
>>there.
>>The last waterfall on Bad Medicine is now passable, we managed to
>>maneuver the rocks down to the bottom of the waterfall. It is not
>>easy, so the people that worry about breakage or damage DO NOT DO
>>THE TRAIL.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! do a trail that you are capable of
>>without ruining the trail for the ones that like the extreme
>>challenge.
>>I am sick and tired of every time I go out wheeling, I spend half
>>the day UNSTACKING ROCKS. We do put winches on our rigs for a
>>reason. If you cant not drive the obstacle without building ramps,
>>use your WINCH.
> >I could go on forever about this so I will stop now, GET THE POINT.
>>
>>Todd
>>
>>
>
>
>I will take you to task on the central issue you are advocating:
>
>If you are saying that the ONLY people on the trails are the ones
>that want the extreme trail, you are no different than the GAG that
>wants no one but them on foot on the trail.
>
>If it is a trail on PUBLIC LAND and it is a recognized trail, making
>the trail impassible except for a modified rig is a sure sign to get
>the trail closed.
>
>I agree that people with stock vehicles have no business on many of
>the trails. By the same token, if you are going to limit access to
>special class of rigs, you are asking for a trail closure, especially
>if a case of bodily injury or death occurs.
>
>BLM is not going to keep a trail open if it is cited as a liability.
>Okay, now start the argument about how people need to have their own
>insurance, yada, yada, yada and they should be responsible, yada,
>yada, yada..
>
>Making a trail difficult has caused a major problem with the Little
>Sluice on the Rubicon.
>
>Okay, you want extreme trails? Join the Rockcrawler groups and have
>at it on a course. Keep in mind that a course can be set up and
>removed. Trails are no different, they can be removed and will be
>remove when they become a liability.
>
>You need to remember that access to trails on PUBLIC LANDS needs to
>be available to the PUBLIC. If you are going to advocate in land
>management plans that trails be kept for extreme use, you are playing
>into the GAGs hand. The argument becomes a losing battle because the
>BLM is not going to keep trails for a few (elite CAPABILITY) at the
>expense of many.
>
>I have used the argument about the number of 4x4 recreationists that
>are desiring access to trails and trying to say that the numbers
>demand that trails be kept open as opposed to the limited number of
>hikers that would otherwise have the area to themselves.
>
>Now, you want to take the set of potential trail users and limit that
>to the few who want extreme trails. Sorry, I will go out and help
>stack the rocks so that more people from all skill levels can use the
>trails. That is the only way we will be able to keep them open.
>Access for ALL.
>
>
>--
>John Stewart
>Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
>Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
>Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com
>Webmaster, Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--
John Stewart
Director, Environmental Affairs, UFWDA, http://www.ufwda.org
Recreation Access and Conservation Editor, http://www.4x4wire.com
Webmaster, Tierra del Sol 4x4: http://www.tds4x4.com
Webmaster, Jeep-L: http://www.jeep-l.net
75956 From: CoyotEddie <coyoteddie@e...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 4:26am
Subject: [OT]Web link for Converter
Here is the web link for the converter http://www.joshmadison.com/software/convert/
75957 From: <Steveslifer@a...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 0:44am
Subject: Windshield replacement
We need the windshield replaced on our TJ and we was wondering (a) does AVJC have any arrangements with a company here in the E. Valley; and (b) absent that, any recommendations? Thanks.
Steve and Rose Slifer
75958 From: CoyotEddie <coyoteddie@e...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:02am
Subject: Re: Windshield replacement
Do you have full glass coverage with your insurance co. ? I have found some don't realize that they do. Call you agent and ask them.
----- Original Message -----
From: Steveslifer@aol.com
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 6:44 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Windshield replacement
We need the windshield replaced on our TJ and we was wondering (a) does AVJC have any arrangements with a company here in the E. Valley; and (b) absent that, any recommendations? Thanks.
Steve and Rose Slifer
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
75959 From: Leonard K. Pennock <leonardpennock@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:12am
Subject: Re: Borla 4.0 xj header?
I have one on my 87. Been running it a couple of years so I don't
really remember if it is lower or not. I'm down in chandler if you want
to take a look at it.
az_vjc@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>Message: 19
> Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 21:50:25 -0700
> From: "GP" <grant@d...>
>Subject: Borla 4.0 xj header?
>
>Anyone on this list running one? My 1994 factory manifold is cracked
and I'm
>looking for a replacement. I'm curious if it hangs any lower than the
stock
>header/crossover pipe? My engine/tranny skidplate is approximately 1/4"
>below the factory crossover pipe. If the borla header is any lower, it's
>going to interfere with the skidplate. Thanks for any input.
Grant
>
--
Leonard K. Pennock
Those who walk bravely through life, unafraid of loss or failure,
find that they very rarely lose or fail.
75960 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:11am
Subject: What I did this weekend
I hesitate to post these pictures because the light was bad and the quality
is poor, but, ...
http://members.cox.net/jeepin1/DSC01562a.JPG
http://members.cox.net/jeepin1/DSC01564a.JPG
Wahoo, the engine, tranny & transfer case are in. I have a few details to
work out still, fit and finish stuff. For the most part they are good to go.
Almost time to re-think the springs, lol. The front must have went down
close to 3" after setting the V8 on there.
I wanted to thank everyone that emailed me in response to my needing help. I
got through this, or should I say my back did, with little pain just some
stiffness.
I will get some more pictures taken after the sun comes up and I get my mess
cleaned up.
--James
75961 From: onebdjeep <onebdjeep@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:26am
Subject: Bending steel?? Is it for me??
Ok, I have looked at Harbor Freight and it appears that they have some pretty decent prices on metal bending equipment. The question is... Is it really worth the money and time to fabricate your own equiptment? I think that it would be pretty nice to say "Hey look at what I did!!" like ole Michael did. I am sure he will get all the compliments in the world on a trail run "Hey Mike... nice rack!!!" and he will beam with pride.
So how hard was it really Mike? Was it worth it? I have already started to save the money for the bending equip. What about making bumpers and tire carriers and stuff? What about a new cage? Where the hell do ya get the metal to do this?
Thx!
Sean (just too damn cheap to buy the goods!)
Sean Speer
OneBdJeep (someday!!)
'97 TJ with killer mods to come!!!
(umm... will drink beer for Jeep parts!!!)
75962 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:31am
Subject: Re: What I did this weekend
Nice work James. That D300 would look a lot better in blue though.
:-)
Chris
On Monday, January 20, 2003, at 07:11 AM, James Towle wrote:
> I hesitate to post these pictures because the light was bad and the
> quality
> is poor, but, ...
> http://members.cox.net/jeepin1/DSC01562a.JPG
> http://members.cox.net/jeepin1/DSC01564a.JPG
>
> Wahoo, the engine, tranny & transfer case are in. I have a few details
> to
> work out still, fit and finish stuff. For the most part they are good
> to go.
> Almost time to re-think the springs, lol. The front must have went down
> close to 3" after setting the V8 on there.
> I wanted to thank everyone that emailed me in response to my needing
> help. I
> got through this, or should I say my back did, with little pain just
> some
> stiffness.
> I will get some more pictures taken after the sun comes up and I get
> my mess
> cleaned up.
>
> --James
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
75963 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:25am
Subject: Idler Pulley needed
I need an idler pulley for my AC/onboardair. The pulley pushes against the
back side of the AC belt and is bolted to the alternator bracket. My '72
Wagoneer had one of these on the 360 that was in it and the mounting
brackets I bought for this 360 need one but, the pulley was not included.
Does anyone know where to get one of these? Simon (4 Wheelers) do you all
have one? I am not sure what year engine these brackets came off, so it is
kind of hard going to one of the "local" parts stores and asking.
TIA
--James
75964 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...> <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:33am
Subject: Re: What I did this weekend
Shoot, I was supposed to paint it. The black was just a primer coat.
One more thing to add to my list. LOL
Thanks,
--James
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...> wrote:
> Nice work James. That D300 would look a lot better in blue though.
>
> :-)
>
> Chris
>
> On Monday, January 20, 2003, at 07:11 AM, James Towle wrote:
>
> > I hesitate to post these pictures because the light was bad and
the
> > quality
> > is poor, but, ...
> > http://members.cox.net/jeepin1/DSC01562a.JPG
> > http://members.cox.net/jeepin1/DSC01564a.JPG
> >
> > Wahoo, the engine, tranny & transfer case are in. I have a few
details
> > to
> > work out still, fit and finish stuff. For the most part they are
good
> > to go.
> > Almost time to re-think the springs, lol. The front must have
went down
> > close to 3" after setting the V8 on there.
> > I wanted to thank everyone that emailed me in response to my
needing
> > help. I
> > got through this, or should I say my back did, with little pain
just
> > some
> > stiffness.
> > I will get some more pictures taken after the sun comes up and I
get
> > my mess
> > cleaned up.
> >
> > --James
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
75965 From: Robert Peck <rlpii@q...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:42am
Subject: Re: Idler Pulley needed
James,
Go see Dave at AMC 4 X 4 Salvage in Glendale (6741 W. Belmont, just south of
Grand & Northern Aves.) 623-937-5899. I needed one for my 360 . . . .we had
to do some "exploring in the back", but finally found one that worked. This
was a couple of years ago so I don't know what they have now. But if 4
Wheelers doesn't have it, give Dave a call.
HTH
Bob
74 CJ-5
CANT W8
James Towle wrote:
> I need an idler pulley for my AC/onboardair. The pulley pushes against the
> back side of the AC belt and is bolted to the alternator bracket. My '72
> Wagoneer had one of these on the 360 that was in it and the mounting
> brackets I bought for this 360 need one but, the pulley was not included.
> Does anyone know where to get one of these? Simon (4 Wheelers) do you all
> have one? I am not sure what year engine these brackets came off, so it is
> kind of hard going to one of the "local" parts stores and asking.
>
> TIA
>
> --James
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
75966 From: Trujillo, Jeff <jeff.trujillo@m...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:23am
Subject: RE: run Sunday?
Hey Frank and Theon,
Sorry about not making any runs this weekend. My wife's best friends' mom
past away and she thought she would have to fly to maryland this weekend.
Plus Sunday I finally made myself a rear bumper. Turned out real nice and
sturdy. I even added some mounts for D rings when I get them. Pics will be
up soon when I get them developed. Next will be a front bumber and sliders.
Trying to come up with more metal for the front first though. Tread Lightly!
Jeffrey A. Trujillo
Field Service Representative
MD Helicopters, Inc.
jeff.trujillo@m...
Voice:(480)346-6249
Fax:(480)346-6813
-----Original Message-----
From: BADAZXJ XJArizona [mailto:badazxj@m...]
Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 10:41 PM
To: Jeff.Trujillo@m...
Subject: run Sunday?
We are going to run FR42 tomorrow if you want to go. We are meeting at 10 am
I -17 & carefree highway. Its supposed to be a fun trail although I have
never ran it. I am bringing Anthony so bring the kids if you can. Hope you
can make it.
Frank
BadAzXj@m...
>From: "Trujillo, Jeff" <Jeff.Trujillo@m...>
>To: 'BADAZXJ XJArizona' <badazxj@m...>
>Subject: RE: run today
>Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 06:51:47 -0700
>
>Whichever will run on the PC. How much do you want for the CD?
>Jeff Trujillo
>858 S. Hobson
>Mesa, AZ 85204
>
>Jeffrey A. Trujillo
>Field Service Representative
>MD Helicopters, Inc.
>jeff.trujillo@m...
>Voice:(480)346-6249
>Fax:(480)346-6813
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: BADAZXJ XJArizona [mailto:badazxj@m...]
>Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 10:29 PM
>To: jeff.trujillo@m...
>Subject: run today
>
>
>
>Jeff,
>
>Send me your mailing address and I will drop a cd in the mail for you. Do
>you want VCD or MPEG/AVI format?
>
>Thanks
>
>Frank
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________ _______________
>MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*.
>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
>which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
>material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
>taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
>entities other than the intended recipient or employees of
>MD Helicopters, Inc. is prohibited. If you received this in error, please
>contact the sender by email and delete the material from any computer..
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75967 From: Trujillo, Jeff <jeff.trujillo@m...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:26am
Subject: RE: Re:Calling all welding gurus
Count me in. You can never know to much!!!
Jeffrey A. Trujillo
Field Service Representative
MD Helicopters, Inc.
jeff.trujillo@m...
Voice:(480)346-6249
Fax:(480)346-6813
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Mish [mailto:yldkat55@h...]
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 8:56 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re:Calling all welding gurus
Hunter knows how to weld??
Hey, you think he could teach me?
I wanna go too!
Bill Mish
----- Original Message -----
From: Neal Han**** <mailto:gotrox@c...>
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com <mailto:az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 8:24 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re:Calling all welding gurus
Yeah John, count me in too. I love to learn how you bootyfab sh?t together!!
<snicker snicker>
Let me know if you need any help.
Neal Han****
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.
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The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
entities other than the intended recipient or employees of
MD Helicopters, Inc. is prohibited. If you received this in error, please
contact the sender by email and delete the material from any computer..
75968 From: Scott Kruize <skruize@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:06am
Subject: RE: What I did this weekend
Hi James,
Bolt that orange bucket in and take it for a spin ;D
It's looking really good. I can't wait to see the finished results.
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: James Towle [mailto:James.Towle@a...]
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 7:12 AM
To: AZ_VJC
Subject: [az_vjc] What I did this weekend
I hesitate to post these pictures because the light was bad and the
quality is poor, but, ... http://members.cox.net/jeepin1/DSC01562a.JPG
http://members.cox.net/jeepin1/DSC01564a.JPG
Wahoo, the engine, tranny & transfer case are in. I have a few details
to work out still, fit and finish stuff. For the most part they are good
to go. Almost time to re-think the springs, lol. The front must have
went down close to 3" after setting the V8 on there. I wanted to thank
everyone that emailed me in response to my needing help. I got through
this, or should I say my back did, with little pain just some stiffness.
I will get some more pictures taken after the sun comes up and I get my
mess cleaned up.
--James
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
75969 From: Trujillo, Jeff <jeff.trujillo@m...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:52am
Subject: RE: Bending steel?? Is it for me??
I just made a bumper this weekend and it looks really nice. Yes, its worth
it to do it yourself. In my own opinion. Yea, its nice to just go buy
something (when you have the money) but its also nice to look back at
something that you built and watch it work. I would rather build it myself
than just bolt something up. That might be nice and dandy for some people
but not me. Its a challenge and thats what I like. I just got a welder a
month ago and now I need a cutting torch to be fully dangerous. LOL Wouldn't
mind a metal bender also and a lot other things!
Jeffrey A. Trujillo
Field Service Representative
MD Helicopters, Inc.
jeff.trujillo@m...
Voice:(480)346-6249
Fax:(480)346-6813
-----Original Message-----
From: onebdjeep [mailto:onebdjeep@c...]
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 7:26 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Bending steel?? Is it for me??
Ok, I have looked at Harbor Freight and it appears that they have some
pretty decent prices on metal bending equipment. The question is... Is it
really worth the money and time to fabricate your own equiptment? I think
that it would be pretty nice to say "Hey look at what I did!!" like ole
Michael did. I am sure he will get all the compliments in the world on a
trail run "Hey Mike... nice rack!!!" and he will beam with pride.
So how hard was it really Mike? Was it worth it? I have already started to
save the money for the bending equip. What about making bumpers and tire
carriers and stuff? What about a new cage? Where the hell do ya get the
metal to do this?
Thx!
Sean (just too damn cheap to buy the goods!)
Sean Speer
OneBdJeep (someday!!)
'97 TJ with killer mods to come!!!
(umm... will drink beer for Jeep parts!!!)
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
entities other than the intended recipient or employees of
MD Helicopters, Inc. is prohibited. If you received this in error, please
contact the sender by email and delete the material from any computer..
75970 From: Scott Kruize <skruize@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:14am
Subject: RE: Bending steel?? Is it for me??
I went to www.harborfreight.com typed in the word 'bender' in the search box and 10 results come up. Just out of curiosity, Which of these are you looking at?
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: onebdjeep [mailto:onebdjeep@cox.net]
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 7:26 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Bending steel?? Is it for me??
Ok, I have looked at Harbor Freight and it appears that they have some pretty decent prices on metal bending equipment. The question is... Is it really worth the money and time to fabricate your own equiptment? I think that it would be pretty nice to say "Hey look at what I did!!" like ole Michael did. I am sure he will get all the compliments in the world on a trail run "Hey Mike... nice rack!!!" and he will beam with pride.
So how hard was it really Mike? Was it worth it? I have already started to save the money for the bending equip. What about making bumpers and tire carriers and stuff? What about a new cage? Where the hell do ya get the metal to do this?
Thx!
Sean (just too damn cheap to buy the goods!)
Sean Speer
OneBdJeep (someday!!)
'97 TJ with killer mods to come!!!
(umm... will drink beer for Jeep parts!!!)
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
75971 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...> <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:17am
Subject: Re: What I did this weekend
LOL, I have to find some way to mount the steering wheel.
But really, I am waiting on my HEI to be delivered. I found a guy in
Ohio that will take a Chevy V8 HEI and modify it to work on an AMC V8
for $65 +shipping. I sent the distributor off last week and hope to
get back in a couple of weeks. With the "standard" GM type altenator
and the GM HEI the wiring should be a breeze.
I can't wait.
--James
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Kruize" <skruize@c...> wrote:
> Hi James,
>
> Bolt that orange bucket in and take it for a spin ;D
>
> It's looking really good. I can't wait to see the finished results.
>
> Scott K
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Towle [mailto:James.Towle@a...]
> Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 7:12 AM
> To: AZ_VJC
> Subject: [az_vjc] What I did this weekend
>
>
> I hesitate to post these pictures because the light was bad and the
> quality is poor, but, ...
http://members.cox.net/jeepin1/DSC01562a.JPG
> http://members.cox.net/jeepin1/DSC01564a.JPG
>
> Wahoo, the engine, tranny & transfer case are in. I have a few
details
> to work out still, fit and finish stuff. For the most part they are
good
> to go. Almost time to re-think the springs, lol. The front must have
> went down close to 3" after setting the V8 on there. I wanted to
thank
> everyone that emailed me in response to my needing help. I got
through
> this, or should I say my back did, with little pain just some
stiffness.
> I will get some more pictures taken after the sun comes up and I
get my
> mess cleaned up.
>
> --James
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
75972 From: Siade, Randy <randy.siade@u...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:18am
Subject: RE: Idler Pulley needed
I bought mine down at Pep boys. They have them for the 15XXX and 17xxx
series belts.
-----Original Message-----
From: James Towle [mailto:James.Towle@a...]
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 7:26 AM
To: AZ_VJC
Subject: [az_vjc] Idler Pulley needed
I need an idler pulley for my AC/onboardair. The pulley pushes against the
back side of the AC belt and is bolted to the alternator bracket. My '72
Wagoneer had one of these on the 360 that was in it and the mounting
brackets I bought for this 360 need one but, the pulley was not included.
Does anyone know where to get one of these? Simon (4 Wheelers) do you all
have one? I am not sure what year engine these brackets came off, so it is
kind of hard going to one of the "local" parts stores and asking.
TIA
--James
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
75973 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:24am
Subject: [TR] Cleanup - Saturday, January 25, 2003 - Reminder
Hello All,
Robert (Roy) Rogers is leading a Cleanup trail run on Saturday, January 25, 2003.
When: Meet at 9 AM
Where: West side of Table Mesa exit beyond end of pavement.
Rating: 2.0
Length: unknown
CB Channel: 4
Organized by the Phoenix Four Whelers in cooperation with the Arizona State Land Department (ASLD), the Lake Pleasant Regional Recreation Area (LPRRA), and the Bureau of Land Management (BLM).
The ASLD will provide dumpsters and trash bags, the LPRRA will provida a truck to haul away tires, and the Phoenix Four Wheelers will provide beverages.
any questions contact Ron Karlinsky (623-374-9443)
This trail run is a cleanup effort to help improve our environment and demonstrate our care for the land we use. Read the description for details about where and when. Click on the date below to see the description of the event.
Click Here To Add Your Name to the Sign Up List
Thank You,
- The AzVJC Website
75974 From: Michael Beckham <jeepnut7261@h...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:25am
Subject: Re: Bending steel?? Is it for me??
This was my first effort in home-made. I borrowed the bender (hydraulic hand pumped) from a friend. I practiced with a spare piece of tubing till I felt I could judge where to plan bends, then started for real. It took me 2 days, and really was time-consuming as I had no experience to draw on, and had to really plan each one.
The factors I was considering was what I had seen and heard about other aftermarket roof racks available. That and I didn't want to drill a bunch of holes in my jeep.
The basket was easiest, as all I needed to do was make 2 squares, and then join them to form a basket, similar to the Warrior rack I saw in the mags. Mine is approx 60 " wide by 66" long, 6 " tall. this gives me room to place things and secure them down. I attached the support to the rocker skid, and the 2 bolts for the door hinge/frame support with grade 8 bolts.
The basket is removable, leaving the support in place where I can mount lights etc, but still just 4 bolts and it comes off too.
After this, I think I will put the spare on top, and leave the back clean.
tire carrier involves a hinge, and I will have to think on that.
I spent 70 bucks on tubing.
I had a ball! (grunt snort bark!)
----- Original Message -----
From: onebdjeep
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 7:26 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Bending steel?? Is it for me??
Ok, I have looked at Harbor Freight and it appears that they have some pretty decent prices on metal bending equipment. The question is... Is it really worth the money and time to fabricate your own equiptment? I think that it would be pretty nice to say "Hey look at what I did!!" like ole Michael did. I am sure he will get all the compliments in the world on a trail run "Hey Mike... nice rack!!!" and he will beam with pride.
So how hard was it really Mike? Was it worth it? I have already started to save the money for the bending equip. What about making bumpers and tire carriers and stuff? What about a new cage? Where the hell do ya get the metal to do this?
Thx!
Sean (just too damn cheap to buy the goods!)
Sean Speer
OneBdJeep (someday!!)
'97 TJ with killer mods to come!!!
(umm... will drink beer for Jeep parts!!!)
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
75975 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...> <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:35am
Subject: Re: Idler Pulley needed
I guess I am confused on why a pulley on the back side of a belt will
be different depending on the V of the belt. I will go down there
though, I have another part to buy from them.
Thanks,
--James
--- In az_vjc@yahoogroups.com, "Siade, Randy" <randy.siade@u...>
wrote:
> I bought mine down at Pep boys. They have them for the 15XXX and
17xxx
> series belts.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Towle [mailto:James.Towle@a...]
> Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 7:26 AM
> To: AZ_VJC
> Subject: [az_vjc] Idler Pulley needed
>
>
> I need an idler pulley for my AC/onboardair. The pulley pushes
against the
> back side of the AC belt and is bolted to the alternator bracket.
My '72
> Wagoneer had one of these on the 360 that was in it and the mounting
> brackets I bought for this 360 need one but, the pulley was not
included.
> Does anyone know where to get one of these? Simon (4 Wheelers) do
you all
> have one? I am not sure what year engine these brackets came off,
so it is
> kind of hard going to one of the "local" parts stores and asking.
>
> TIA
>
> --James
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
75976 From: <gotrox@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:37am
Subject: RE: Trail blockage, Rock stackers
Many of you remember the big rain we had at Jamboree in 2000. Every wash in the area was running wall to wall. After it was all over with, the sand in the washed dammed up behind the areas of the wash that had rocks stacked. In lower Woodpeck, the sand backed up in the area where people sit and watch, there is 2' of sand in the bottom now.
My point is this, you will never stop people from stacking or unstacking rocks. To sit here and complain is futile and a waist of energy. We all know the rock stacking issue and we all agree that it is a problem. If you want a challenge on a trail, you will have to unstack. I have done it in the past and I'm sure I will have to do it in the future. Jumping on John S. over his opinion isn't going to solve anything. If anything go out this weekend and do the clean up with the Phoenix 4Wheeler at Table Mesa. That is much more value added than whining about rock stacking at this time.
Also if you are going to flame me over this post. Do it off line. We don't need anymore banter about this here.
Neal Han****
Arizona Rock Crawlers