Sidewinder Run

[Digger]

Start at Butcher Jones Gate, do a Sidewinder up and over 4 Peaks, then another Sidewinder south, down Apache Trail. .. Any takers? Karen, since you made it over the top yesterday..how would you like to join us? Stickbuddy?
Would be great to get the original 5 jeeps from the 4 Peaks run in on this.
(we could go back thru Globe or hit Beeline if re-opened if the day gets to long)
I'll mark the calandar if there are any takers by Tuesday.

[DaveDan]

I'm not sure what a Sidewinder run is, and I'm not sure what day you're thinking, but I'm interested as far as the route you have planned.

[Digger]

Well I was thinking next Saturday, since this is kind of a do-over. I named it sidewinder cause we'll not be starting from the original start trail. Kinda winding around out in the desert till we connect with the right trail to take us up and over. Seems there was a push for this adventure yesterday, but after playing at the coves it was getting to late to go exploring. I feel the need to get over to the other side of them mountains using trails. Hey Amy wants me to send pics of wild flowers. They'll be coming through your e-mail tomorrow from work.
If 1 more person seems interested in the Sidewinder by Tuesday, I'll mark it as Saturday March 29, 08 . Meet at the Butcher's sand gate at 9am, depart 9:15am. CB 4..... K?

[DaveDan]

Cool, Sat 3/29 works for me. Count me in.

[Rogue XJ]

will not be able to join y'all, but do have fun. we have a wedding to attend out of state... AND it's our two-year anniversary.

Till next time..... Tim G.

[grateful]

Hey guys - I would love to go over again, but not sure that I can go until later in the week...I may have an irrigation repair job in my neighborhood that Saturday...I would love to go tho, and hopefully snap a few more pictures this time of the flowers! And the water was running in the creeks below the peaks, so perfect picnic area....Next time I'll take a trash bag and pick up behind those who are too stupid to pick up after themselves.

Sorry - I do ramble so! Mark me tentative! And I'll let you know soon as I can! Down Apache Trail is great too, but that means we're climbing UP Fish Creek! Oh what fun! :) And has anyone ever found the Montana Mountain Trail to have a spooky shelf road? It's between Florence Junction and Superior - never been there, but thinking of the Tucson and Higley folks. I'm in central Phx, and can travel round...What part of town are you in Digger?

How do I post a pic of our Saturday trip on this reply?!

[larry avants]

Digger, we can't make it this weekend, I have to work both days. We have Utah coming into the boxes. Maybe next time.....

[Digger]

I live in the Arcadia area, 49th st and e Indian School. To put pictures in, first you reduce them, then go below the reply screen and you'll see attach area...or ..I'll pm you.

[lamanite480]

wow! thats alot of earth to cover. do you think we can make it on one tank of gas? or is there any gas stations inbetween these areas?

[Digger]

There's a gas station in Punkin Center. And another at Jake's Corner.
Karen how much gas did you burn Saturday? About half a tank to go over the Mountain?

[Digger]

Dave, so far it's just you and me as "for sure". Still want to go for it? If so I'll go ahead and put in on run Calandar.

[Stickbuddy]

I'm almost embarrassed to say I'll go; I've signed up four times so far and was only able to make one of them. I'll try, I'll [I]really[I] try!

Back in the day you could go up Cottonwood Wash from the lake to Hughes Corral and hook up with the Four Peaks road there. I don't know if I could still figure out how we did that, and I can't find my old Topos to help me refresh my memory.

I'll know more later in the week. Sorry about not making it Saturday Digger.

[grateful]

There's a gas station in Punkin Center. And another at Jake's Corner.
Karen how much gas did you burn Saturday? About half a tank to go over the Mountain?

I filled up in central Phx and burned less than 1/2 tank if I remember correctly...By the time I got to Globe, I was probably running below 1/2....I didn't fill up until Globe. If I were going to continue on the Apache Trail, I'd fill up at Punkin Center or Jake's.....The Apache Trail is such a fun ride, but very washboard between Roosevelt and Apache Lakes....causes me to slow down quite a bit. Had a brother who totaled a pickup on a washboard once...Nasty ****. But I'd still go again if the group wanted to go...its worth seeing once every now and then.

[JUDOKA]

Hey Digger! I may want to make that run with you all. I know Butcher VERY well now.... since the time they sent out Search And Rescueto find me! Hehe! Seriously! Anyway, my wife may want to go so I will say that we are a possible right now, but I will let you know by Wed, for sure.:laugh2:

[Digger]

Ok, it's a RUN! Stickybuddy, I got my old Topo's out and am looking at the 7.5 minute 4 Peaks Quadrangle map. I see a well defined trail Pigeon Spring Road that runs into El Oso Trail, seeing Brushy Basin, Bear spring, Buckhorn Ridge, Amethyst spring (ooh gonna check that out) do these sound familar to you? This the trail through?
I've always want to go thru Reno Pass, but that's another trip. Also heard that's not passable anymore.
Karen, how long did it take to reach Punkin Center from Butcher's Cove? I want to see if I can plan a little looking around these springs before loosing altitude.

[Digger]

A friend told me he used to take a wash from Butcher Jones up and over the Mountains, Is this how you travel it Karen?

[JUDOKA]

Digger,
I know of a wash that goes up Four Peaks and meets up with the road tward the top, but it has a lot of growth and parts of it are quite narrow. You can pass through, but you will scratch your rig with the vegitation. I never got any "damage", but I did get sone superficial scratches

[Stickbuddy]

Ok, it's a RUN! Stickybuddy, I got my old Topo's out and am looking at the 7.5 minute 4 Peaks Quadrangle map. I see a well defined trail Pigeon Spring Road that runs into El Oso Trail, seeing Brushy Basin, Bear spring, Buckhorn Ridge, Amethyst spring (ooh gonna check that out) do these sound familar to you? This the trail through?
I've always want to go thru Reno Pass, but that's another trip. Also heard that's not passable anymore.
Karen, how long did it take to reach Punkin Center from Butcher's Cove? I want to see if I can plan a little looking around these springs before loosing altitude.

I'm still not a positive to go, but I am familiar with those names and places. Pigeon Spring Road doesn't ring a bell though. When I was goin up there Sahuaro Lake and the camp grounds were not organized or developed like today. I probably wouldn't recognize it anymore. I'm not sure Hughes Corral is still there ether. Hopefully they'll open 87, at least to allow people to recreate at Sugarloaf/Sycamore Creek; if they do we can get onto 143 the normal way.

[grateful]

:)This last Saturday, we left Butcher Jones and the trail went north and connected with the 4 Peaks road, but more towards the bottom/beginning of the Peaks road than any place else. The trail (to get to the 4Peaks road) traveled a wash most of the way....and it was narrow and scratchy in quite a few places. Fun though...sandy and loose gravel until we got out of the wash,...prob about 5/6 of the way towards the road. We left Butcher Jones about 9:30 and stopped for lunch about 11:30ish or noon below the peaks, best that I can recall...so probably a good 3 hours to get to the top. The way down the other side takes quite less time! - no more than another 45 minutes? Sorry I don't remember the time much...I don't tend to pay too much attention to it when I'm out...mostly I watch my gas tank! And please remember, I was led down that wash by 2 very nice guys! - I did not notice alot of opportunity to make alot of wrong turns though, so I think its not too bad to give it a go! Looks like my Saturday work didn't pan out, so I can go Saturday! I will look forward to meeting you all there! Butcher Jones at the entrance to the wash? (northwest corner of the parking lot?)

[OtoPA]

Just for grins, if you look at Google maps and select 'satellite' view, you can zoom in and cruise over all the back washes and trails in your areas of interest. Some, not all areas have detailed pictures. Other places don't have quite as good resolution, or clouds got in the way.

For this trip discussion, you can follow washes linking to trails from Butcher Jones to the top of 4 peaks.

[Stickbuddy]

cool, I'll give it a go!

[Digger]

Thanks for the trail info everyone, and Stickbuddy..I think everyone will be headed to Butcher Jones to start this run...since that's what I posted. Best stick to that plan so we don't miss people?? !!
Hey Karen.. COOL..see ya at the gate at butcher Jones, yes it is at the back of parking lot. got my phone # from last weekend post? And about attaching pictures on this jeep sight.. I think there are instructions on how to do this in the Post your Pictures Forum...hope this helps.

[grateful]

Thanks! I will try the pics later tonight! My kid cut me off of Photobucket, so I need to re-download my pics! nasty teenagers...never have them if you can avoid it!
Got your phone # from PM Digger - which will be cool Hopefully I won't miss you this time! Glad to see Stickbuddy leading this! And great map ideas!!! I learn something new every day! :)

[Digger]

couldn't resist the flowers and went to Butcher Jones sand trail afterwork, it sure is nice being the only wheels on the Beeline! I made good time! got another 50 pictures of wild flowers.

[DaveDan]

Looking at the 7.5' topo, it would seem that Amethyst Spring would be in the Wilderness area? (I haven't compared locations with the FS Tonto map, just guessing.) But Pigeon and Big Pine springs have the potenital to be interesting side trips, and Middle Water Spring is right on El Oso. I'll enter those as waypoints in the GPS (better go set it out now so I don't forget), let me know if you want me to program any others.

[Stickbuddy]

Thanks! I will try the pics later tonight! My kid cut me off of Photobucket, so I need to re-download my pics! nasty teenagers...never have them if you can avoid it!
Got your phone # from PM Digger - which will be cool Hopefully I won't miss you this time! Glad to see Stickbuddy leading this! And great map ideas!!! I learn something new every day! :)

Thanks for your confidence but I am very embarrassed to tell everyone that I haven't got a clue where Butcher Jones is, or how to lead you out of there. When I used to bang around out in those parts there was Sahuaro Lake, but no such thing as Butcher Jones; yes, I have heard of it over the years but have no idea how to get there. :-(

OtoPA, I tried the Google map search you suggested, all I got was a headache. Evidently there is a minute difference in the maps of that area, one appears to 15 the other 7.5; they appear to join just above the lake. I located the stuff I thought I was familiar with and I think I figured out Cottonwood Wash, but if I'm right it hits the lake a lot further east than where I assume Butcher Jones would be. I even tried Terraserver and didn't have any better luck. If I have time I'll go to REI and see what I can dig out.

[Digger]

Ok, thanks Dave.I'll get back to ya.
Stickbuddy: check out the Lake recreation map. Butcher Jones is an popular picnic/swimming beach area open to public. The Jeepers drive thru the back gate which leads to the open desert around the lake. It's popular for sand vehicles in the immediate washes. And the hill climbs to reach priviate lake coves. You should check it out, much fun to be had indeed!!! And the private coves are great for taking the dogs swimming.

[SquarEyd]

They said on the news this morning that they may be opening up the 87 this weekend. Only one lane in each direction though...

[Stickbuddy]

Just saw 12 News, 87 is open both directions, the only place where it is one lane is where the buckling occurred. Looks like clear sailing to FR143.

[Bilt4Comfort]

Just an FYI Digger...Reno Pass is still passable, but still closed due to fire erosion.

[Digger]

Have you ever had the chance to go thru Reno Pass? That Fort Reno is always in the back of my mind. Have a friend who's buddies kids found a pair of old boots there years ago. The kids were playing with the boots and the heal fell off of 1 of them... out rolled 3 gold coins!!!

And Stickbuddy, are you running this for sure?? I'm going to hesitate to change meeting place. I think we will stick with Butcher's cove. Karen made this run from the Butcher last weekend, I hope she is able to make this Saturday, with her memory and my maps.. I think this will be a good adventure. DaveDan has GPS, and I think he's been following this post and working on getting trails down. Should make for a good tem effort on Sidewinding our way up and over!!! Whatcha think, everyone!? I'm looking forward to seeing the springs that are up there!!!
ooh, time for sleep,... Friday coming right up!!!! See ya all on Saturday!!!!:)

[grateful]

I agree...lets have some fun and head off thru those washes and visit the springs if we can....The El Oso road is very scenic and very nice - but to get on some of those back trails will probably be a nice change. I bought a map too, so with the GPS and maps, we should be good!

I had never heard of Butcher Jones either...I went up 87, and headed east on Bush Highway, and if I remember correctly, its the first major turnoff to the left, heading north, from the intersection of 87 and Bush Highway. It's not far back in at all, and then there's a parking lot and bathrooms and lake and people. We met alot of bikes and atv's up in the wash, but they were all closer to the gate and once we got back in, not too far, we encountered only a few. With 87 open, maybe they will move back to the other areas...I think there were more than usual because 87 was closed.

So Digger, you call...where shall we meet and when? :)

[Stickbuddy]

I think I can make it this week; let's say I'm 95% positive. Post up when and where you are meeting again and what time. It might be helpful to keep this thread going but start a new one called "Up and Over Four Peaks II" and give start times, locations, etc., and, of course, reference this thread. This is the type of deal where it's "the more the merrier" as far as I'm concerned. If we run into any obstacles I will bring some yellow "crime scene" tape so we can cordon them off and make sure no one will gets hurt or breaks anything.

Those who have them should bring some garden-type snippers and forge ahead of the rest in order to snip away any potential paint-scratchy thingy's we may encounter.

I encourage everyone to "air up" before you leave town! This trail is no place for "softies"!

My personal preference, and others may concur, is that we meet off 87 at the Four Peaks turn off. Those who want to do it that way could meet around, say 10:15/10;30 in order to give the Pioneers time to make it up there from Butcher Jones. We'll be the ones standing around our Jeeps with well-rested smiles, handing out bottled waters to those tuckered souls who had to get up extra early. :-) ........................, just sayin'

[Digger]

Stickbuddy, I have no objection to you posting up a Up and Over II, go for it!
I am still hesitant to change meeting spot, because we have a few people last week who didn't know 4 peaks turn off, but was able to find us at the Bush Hwy turn off. I don't want to chance crossed directions at this point, and who knows, they kinda rushed that landslide clean up and re-open of road... they just might have to shut in down for emergency road repair at any given time. just my 2 concerned cents. Do you have people following you stickbuddy? And what part of town are you in? It might be you pass Bush hwy - butcher jones turn off on the way to 4 peaks.(I do)

see if these direcection help: 87 north to Saguro lake turn off- this is bush Hwy. turn right on lake/bush hwy.Drive for maybe 4 minutes and you will see sign on right side off road-Butcher Jones Recreational area. turn left... and don't worry about the parking pass signs.... you will not be parking in this area

drive about 3 minutes turn right into recreational parking lot, and keep driving till the end where it starts to circle around.. you will see large green gate that is open

pull in over cattle guard, and enter into a whole new world!! you will see JEEPS

and I gave up on trying not to scratch my jeep 3 months after I joined AZVJC, cause ya can't change the inevitable, you can only delay it ...ever so slightly!!!! :drummer: :)

[Digger]

If it helps, I can sit at the turn off of 87, and wait

OR, HOW ABOUT THIS EVERYONE-WOULD YOU GUYS RATHER MEET AT 4-PEAKS???? WE COULD GROUP AT THE BUTCHER TURN OFF AND HEAD FOR 4-PEAKS/STICKBUDDY....PLEASE RESPOND TO THIS.... I suppose I should offer this for those of you who worry about scratching your paint on jeep.

My only request is ...I don't want the SIDEWINDER RUN to get BUSHWACKED !!!
:):)

[Digger]

HERES MY # 602 920-2763 don't hesitate to call
(my landline at work #480 281-4441) direct line to my desk- I'll be here till 2pm today.

[Digger]

The Old Fort Reno is only 3 miles from Punkin Center to the West, sounds like it is on the trail we are taking. Check it out. Also a blurb on the trail to the west of the mountains on this run.
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff310/DigsPics/reno/4PeaksTour.jpg
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff310/DigsPics/reno/OldFortReno.jpg

[Digger]

oh yea..... think I got the hand of this inserting info on the forum :smug:

[Stickbuddy]

Hi Digger, I posted a new "Up and Over........." thread. I pass the Bush Highway turnoff coming from Phoenix but I'd rather meet where 143 starts. I'll be there around ten or a little before, that will allow your group time to figure out how to get from Butcher Jones up to 143; I posted that we should monitor CB Channel 4 so we can find each other. It's only an hour and a half max to the top. I'd like to stop for a minute at Tehanus Springs which is past Cline's Cabin in Brushy Basin.

By the way, I was only being facetious about the snippers, yellow tape, etc.; it was, I guess, a failed humorous attempt to assure folks that this was a pleasure run and no need to worry about carnage.

[Digger]

Oh, ok Stickbuddy, ha ah ha, I've never met you, and was wondering if I'd have to wear shades just to look at you shiny, perfect paint job on Jeep!! I was at work when I read your lastest on here, and when I'm at work I'm serious business.... I'm like the Police at work, no silly allowed, but when I step out the door I transform into.... well.. me.
Hey did you see the map inserts from me /l\ this morning?
So how many jeeps should I look for when 143 meets up?

[Stickbuddy]

Yeah, those were cool pages! How old is that book?

I haven't had any hits on my thread yet; I invited a new member but haven't heard back. I didn't specify in the thread that they had to sign up or anything; made it a sort of - show up if you want to - kind of deal. So, as of now, look for a lone white JK with a black hard top. I'm going to write your cell phone number down so if the CB isn't working right I can try you on the cell.

[Digger]

ok, and last weekend the up and over group, ventured out.. scoping out trail that lead up and over, we got pretty close to 4 peaks, and it was a mild journey, but there were obsticles for those who wanted to give em a try!! Won't have to let much air out of tires if any. 4 wheel drive will get ya thru the little stretch of sand there is... and it ain't bad at all! Come on Stickbuddy, when's the last time you got to play is a sand box? :)

[wolfman]

Just wondering why you would go on a trail that and I quote From your map thing"A Jeep is Not required!" ?

[Digger]

Those pages are from the 70's, and even if the trail was good enough for car, I'm sure there are obsticles to play on along the way. I used those pages to show where a few ruins and other things people might want to see. Heck I see cars trying 2.0 trails all the time, like the main dirt roads around CK, and Cottonwood lane in FJ.

[Rogue XJ]

to correct my earlier post... my stuff isn't till next weekend (duh), so I'll be in on this one. yay!

see ya there at Butcher Jones. Tim G.

[Digger]

OK FINAL: THERE WILL BE ABOUT 10 JEEPS,
MEET AT BUTCHER JONES SAND GATE, WILL DEPART AT 9AM AND HEAD FOR 4 PEAKS. I'LL BE THERE AT 8:30AM. STICKBUDDY WILL MEET UP WITH US WHEN WE HIT FR143.
CB CHANNEL 4 OR CB CHANNEL 5 IF 4 is heavy with others not in our group.
FILL YOUR WINDSHIELD FLUID, BUGS ARE HEAVY IN THE EVENING ON THE HIGHWAY. I EXPERIENCED THIS WEDS NIGHT COMING HOME ON BEELINE FROM BUTCHER.
SEE YA THERE!!!

[Stickbuddy]

Is the departure from Butcher Jones still set for 9:15 like in the second post of this thread?

[knockonit]

My wife and I will join up at the gate, sorry for the last minute sign on, but had a previous cancelation, and have a new to us TJ to try out, gonna leave the yj at home, (its a little tough on her)
Ok then, look forward to meeting all.

ric j.
602-451-2437 cell if things go south
rj

[Digger]

We'll stick around for a bit, but hoping for 9am departure. everyone: if your on the road and running a minute late call me on cell 602 920-2763, this way we can delay departure for you!! Looking forward to meeting all of you!! Oh and we now have a jeepers who is familiar with these trails joining us!!!
I had a good time last weekend, the group was the greatest, also had pm's from other's with same thoughts!!! Really looking forward to meeting all of you!!
time for sleep now! nite, nite!!

[DaveDan]

Just to let you know, I will not have any waypoints in the GPS. It has decided to no longer talk to my computer. I broke it to the point of it not working at all in my attempt to fix it, but after messing with it some more it now at least it has the same functionality as last week - the full detail map for the area and our breadcrumbs from last week.

The ironic part of this is the fact I had ordered a new car power cable (long ago broken) for it about two hours ago. Fortunately, I was able to cancel that order. Grrr...

[Digger]

Dave, not to worry, we'll have someone on the who knows the way very well.
See you at Butcher Jones!!

[Digger]

I'm going to close this thread soon.
If anyone wants to post pictures after the run, let's start a new thread in the PICTURE forum. Call it Sidewinder Run Pictures. see everyone about 9am this morning!! Maybe 12 jeeps on this run.