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69700 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 8:08am
Subject: [FS] JEEP PARTS
Price:
Contact: DEREK 623-329-8174
84 CJ 7 PARTS
4 CYL COMPLETE MAKE OFFER IN RUNNING CONDITION
4 SPD TRANS MAKE OFFER
300 TRANSFER CASE HAVE 2 FOR SALE
MISC SMALL PARTS ANY QUES GIVE ME A CALL
DEREK DREAGER
623-329-8174
DEREK DREAGER
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
69701 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 8:09am
Subject: RE: Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
One mans Petroglyphs is another mans graffiti.
So if I scratch some figures and stuff on some rocks you think in 800
years or so it will become a protected area? Wouldn't that be a terrible
prank to play on your great great great great great great grand
children!?
My suggestion is to move any of the "petroglyphs" to a more secure area.
It's just a matter of time before the elements get to them if not
vandals.
Joey K
93YJ
-----Original Message-----
From: flatfenderman2000 [mailto:cnd4ever@g...]
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 6:41 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
I have to wonder how all the petroglyphs in the area have managed to
survive for the last 800 yeas with out the intervention of groups
like those encountered on LWP. Oh my GOD, what if it rains and that
canyon turns into a raging river? All the evidence against you nasty
poluting rock crawlers will be washed away!
I'll I can say is pray for rain folks, but it may already be too late.
Chris L.
--- In az_vjc@y..., "BradP Kilgore" <brad.kilgore@p...> wrote:
> Actually the Archeologists were of the senior variety as opposed to
> students and a little hypocritical. They were pleasant for the most
> part, but one moment were telling us were should not drive on the
rocks
> and the next second were gathered around, running across the rocks
and
> vegetation to take pictures of the jeeps climbing. Everybody should
> clean up after themselves, but we shouldn't all be punished for the
> failings of a few. Unfortunately, there will always be those who
don't
> care, and have no concern for anyone but themselves. All we can do
is
> set the best example we can, do things the right way, pickup up
after
> ourselves and always tread lightly. Hopefully, someday these groups
> will come to realize we are not the enemy.
>
> My two cents.
>
> Brad
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sedonacowgirl [mailto:cowgirl@s...]
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 8:28 AM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
>
>
> Howdy! Nothing like being falsely accused to ruin an otherwise
> lovely day, huh? Probably once, that archeologist saw one Jeeper
do
> something dumb, if they ever saw anything at all. Just like
> everything else, sometimes it is just one idiot in a group who
ruins
> it for everyone.
>
> What aggravates me is what you saw: they were tramping all over
the
> rocks and vegetation, but looking down their noses at you. I am
> willing to bet that those were student archeologists, full of self-
> righteousness. It sounds like they were the uninformed hypocrits.
> Next time ask them if they know what microbiotic crust is, or the
> TREAD Lightly rules...
>
> I guess this fires me up because I had my own unpleasant encounter
> this weekend, the first of its kind that I have ever had. I was
> doing a Broken Arrow tour. I had just gotten to the trailhead,
when
> a group of mountain bikers came flying by us. One of the women
> shouted right into the Jeep as she flew by: "polluters!" I was
> stunned, and uncharacteristically speechless.
>
> First, I have never had any unpleasant brushes with the public
while
> in a yellow Jeep (Pink Jeeps, yes, but not regular people).
Second,
> my retrofitted 2002 Sahara produces less emissions that her
digestive
> system. Third, I doubt that she arrived in Sedona in a solar
powered
> car, or that her high-tech bike and clothing was produced in an
> emission-free factory. In fact, she probably drove a volkswagon
that
> smokes.
>
> In reflection, she probably just had an unpleasant interlude with a
> Pink Jeep on the trail, and I was there to receive HER
frustration.
>
> My point is, people seem very quick to judge and jump to
> conclusions. Everyone is very touchy about public land these days,
> and rightfully so...archeologists, bikers, and Jeepers, alike, are
> all worried about losing access to their beloved trails and lands.
>
> The challenge I want to put to the group is: How can we bring
mutual
> understanding to all of these different groups that we all want the
> same thing: to protect and enjoy our public lands. We all are so
> busy fighting each other that we lose sight of the fact that it is
> the policies of the Forest Service and BLM that we should be
worried
> about. I can't count how many Jeep trails have been shut down by
the
> Sedona Ranger District in the last two years. Meanwhile, they are
> building another golf course...
>
> I know that this is a little heavy for Monday morning, but...
>
> Happy trails!
>
> Nena
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Dan Coley" <crawlintj@y...> wrote:
> > Halfway through Lower Woodpecker (at the first major crack) today
> > there are about a dozen people with clipboards climbing around
the
> > canyon walls, doing mappings of the paintings on the rocks.
> Needless
> > to say I got a bit of lip from them about us "driving on the
> > paintings" and them wanting to get them mapped before the area is
> > closed because of four wheelers.
> >
> > The fact that there was quite a bit of oil on the rocks (for
quite
> a
> > few yards) from someone that "lost their oil pan" (according to
one
> > of them) and didn't clean up their mess really didn't help
either.
> I
> > personally picked up some trash off the trail though (although I
> tend
> > to do that anyways).
> >
> > I tried to explain that a majority of us are responsible
wheelers,
> do
> > not destroy vegetation, and are not out to ruin the land.
Somehow
> I
> > got the impression that they think our jeep bodies are stronger
> than
> > the rocks we rub against, and are destroying them.
> >
> > I'm not saying either party was right, we both have the legal
right
> > to be where we were, it's just that they hiked up to where they
> > where, and witnessed what could be perceived as us "damaging" the
> > land, in their eyes.
> >
> > Now I didn't start an argument, but the truth is they were
actually
> > climbing and walking around on the rocks and walls, actually
where
> > there was existing vegetation....
> >
> > However, I am thankful that they weren't out there on the Friday
> > night of the Jamboree to witness all the drunken idiots throwing
> > their beer cans all around.
> >
> > I've only been wheeling those trails regularly for a year or so
> now,
> > and have never seen them out there before.
> >
> > Dan
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
69702 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 8:13am
Subject: [FS] CJ Hardtop and full doors
Price: $600
Contact: 480-861-5106/ 480-373-8883
Black Hardtop, complete steel doors painted safety orange(painted on ouside-inside black &; tan).
Kurt Ehrenberg
69703 From: Chris <my1stjeep@e...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 8:35am
Subject: Re: Election
One very much at heart should be the choice for Gov., one of them is
VERY Green and one is not.
Chris
---------------------------------------------------------------------
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe-CJ7" <Joe-CJ7@j...> wrote:
> First thing - Get out there and VOTE
> All of the belly-aching we do at least you can do is vote to give
> yourself the privilege to belly-ache.
>
> Second - Does this affect us and what are some of our opinions?
> PROP. 101: state lands
> A yes vote will permit the exchange of state lands for other public
> lands if it is in the best interests of the state land trust, it
> conserves open space on trust lands, and appraisals show lands
received
> and projected income will equal or exceed that of the state lands.
> A no vote will not permit the change of state lands for other
public
> lands.
> Excerpts from the arguments for Prop. 101:
> The measure will give Arizonans an opportunity to preserve open
space
> and increase funding for education. Currently, there are no
safeguards
> to protect some of the most beautiful places in Arizona from being
> purchased by developers and turned into parking lots and shopping
malls.
> Prop. 101 will allow public-to-public land exchanges, so the state
can
> trade trust land for other public land of equal or greater value.
The
> measure provides many safeguards to ensure that any exchanges are
in
> Arizona's best interests. Public hearings would have to be held.
Money
> will go to public education.
> Excerpts from the arguments against Prop. 101:
> The measure does not ensure conservation of the land, and it does
not
> guarantee adequate public review and comment opportunities. Land
> exchanges should be subject to a full environmental impact
analysis and
> a full public review. Prop. 101 is harmful to broad-based efforts
to
> reform state trust land policy. The first thing that would happen
is
> that a land exchange developed by Gov. Jane Hull would be
implemented,
> making possible the development of 200,000 acres near the Grand
Canyon.
> Prop. 101 would not ensure conservation of that or other state
land and
> could lead to more unmanaged growth and sprawl.
>
> Thanks
>
> Joe Kearney
> Joe-CJ7@J...
69704 From: Scott Kruize <skruize@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 8:40am
Subject: RE: re: onboard air
I liked my 10# CO2 until I went to 37s. Now I need to fill it up after every 3rd run.
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: cowboy7575@aol.com [mailto:cowboy7575@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 10:27 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] re: onboard air
One of the guys on the 10-21 Broken Arrow run (I think his name was John, he drove a red YJ) had a nice set up using a Co2 Tank. Other than the cost of the tank and fittings, it costs $5 to fill it up each time and holds more than enough air to fill 4 tires.......seems to me that this is not only a more economical set up but easier to install (yeah, strap the bottle to your roll bar or rack). He said that he has been running with it for a while and loves it.
Mike
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
69705 From: Mike Chatfield <Mike@A...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 8:43am
Subject: FW: jeeps
Came to the website&
- Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Morenojeepj@aol.com [mailto:Morenojeepj@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 4:41 PM
To: Webmaster@AzVJC.org
Subject: jeeps
Hi, I wanted to shoot this to you I hope you don't mind. If you would like to post it for your members I will offer them an additional 5% off. (already wholesale, so I can't go too much further). But I will treat them professionally and with respect I promise you that. If you would like to do any link exchanges or referral programs of any sort I would love it. My prices are at bare minimums so I do have to really network and work off referrals and earning respect and trust from our jeep community.
www.jeepjunkies.com.
It is still under construction, however you can email for parts. We try and carry any,
and every part and accessory for your off road vehicle at wholesale prices.
Feel free to check us out, bookmark us, and check back periodically
as we get the sight up and running.
I am trying my best to make it the best online off road vehicle parts sight around.
Please post a message with anything you would like to see or your comments.
Sincerely,
Marc
69706 From: Leonard Garcia <leonardg@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 9:05am
Subject: Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
Does an AzxVJC decal qualify as a petroglyph?
--- In az_vjc@y..., "DesertJeep" <joey@d...> wrote:
>
> One mans Petroglyphs is another mans graffiti.
>
> So if I scratch some figures and stuff on some rocks you think in
800
> years or so it will become a protected area? Wouldn't that be a
terrible
> prank to play on your great great great great great great grand
> children!?
>
> My suggestion is to move any of the "petroglyphs" to a more secure
area.
> It's just a matter of time before the elements get to them if not
> vandals.
>
> Joey K
> 93YJ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: flatfenderman2000 [mailto:cnd4ever@g...]
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 6:41 PM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
>
>
> I have to wonder how all the petroglyphs in the area have managed
to
> survive for the last 800 yeas with out the intervention of groups
> like those encountered on LWP. Oh my GOD, what if it rains and that
> canyon turns into a raging river? All the evidence against you
nasty
> poluting rock crawlers will be washed away!
>
> I'll I can say is pray for rain folks, but it may already be too
late.
>
> Chris L.
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "BradP Kilgore" <brad.kilgore@p...> wrote:
> > Actually the Archeologists were of the senior variety as opposed
to
> > students and a little hypocritical. They were pleasant for the
most
> > part, but one moment were telling us were should not drive on the
> rocks
> > and the next second were gathered around, running across the rocks
> and
> > vegetation to take pictures of the jeeps climbing. Everybody
should
> > clean up after themselves, but we shouldn't all be punished for
the
> > failings of a few. Unfortunately, there will always be those who
> don't
> > care, and have no concern for anyone but themselves. All we can
do
> is
> > set the best example we can, do things the right way, pickup up
> after
> > ourselves and always tread lightly. Hopefully, someday these
groups
> > will come to realize we are not the enemy.
> >
> > My two cents.
> >
> > Brad
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sedonacowgirl [mailto:cowgirl@s...]
> > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 8:28 AM
> > To: az_vjc@y...
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
> >
> >
> > Howdy! Nothing like being falsely accused to ruin an otherwise
> > lovely day, huh? Probably once, that archeologist saw one Jeeper
> do
> > something dumb, if they ever saw anything at all. Just like
> > everything else, sometimes it is just one idiot in a group who
> ruins
> > it for everyone.
> >
> > What aggravates me is what you saw: they were tramping all over
> the
> > rocks and vegetation, but looking down their noses at you. I am
> > willing to bet that those were student archeologists, full of
self-
> > righteousness. It sounds like they were the uninformed
hypocrits.
> > Next time ask them if they know what microbiotic crust is, or the
> > TREAD Lightly rules...
> >
> > I guess this fires me up because I had my own unpleasant encounter
> > this weekend, the first of its kind that I have ever had. I was
> > doing a Broken Arrow tour. I had just gotten to the trailhead,
> when
> > a group of mountain bikers came flying by us. One of the women
> > shouted right into the Jeep as she flew by: "polluters!" I was
> > stunned, and uncharacteristically speechless.
> >
> > First, I have never had any unpleasant brushes with the public
> while
> > in a yellow Jeep (Pink Jeeps, yes, but not regular people).
> Second,
> > my retrofitted 2002 Sahara produces less emissions that her
> digestive
> > system. Third, I doubt that she arrived in Sedona in a solar
> powered
> > car, or that her high-tech bike and clothing was produced in an
> > emission-free factory. In fact, she probably drove a volkswagon
> that
> > smokes.
> >
> > In reflection, she probably just had an unpleasant interlude with
a
> > Pink Jeep on the trail, and I was there to receive HER
> frustration.
> >
> > My point is, people seem very quick to judge and jump to
> > conclusions. Everyone is very touchy about public land these
days,
> > and rightfully so...archeologists, bikers, and Jeepers, alike,
are
> > all worried about losing access to their beloved trails and
lands.
> >
> > The challenge I want to put to the group is: How can we bring
> mutual
> > understanding to all of these different groups that we all want
the
> > same thing: to protect and enjoy our public lands. We all are so
> > busy fighting each other that we lose sight of the fact that it
is
> > the policies of the Forest Service and BLM that we should be
> worried
> > about. I can't count how many Jeep trails have been shut down by
> the
> > Sedona Ranger District in the last two years. Meanwhile, they are
> > building another golf course...
> >
> > I know that this is a little heavy for Monday morning, but...
> >
> > Happy trails!
> >
> > Nena
> >
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Dan Coley" <crawlintj@y...> wrote:
> > > Halfway through Lower Woodpecker (at the first major crack)
today
> > > there are about a dozen people with clipboards climbing around
> the
> > > canyon walls, doing mappings of the paintings on the rocks.
> > Needless
> > > to say I got a bit of lip from them about us "driving on the
> > > paintings" and them wanting to get them mapped before the area
is
> > > closed because of four wheelers.
> > >
> > > The fact that there was quite a bit of oil on the rocks (for
> quite
> > a
> > > few yards) from someone that "lost their oil pan" (according to
> one
> > > of them) and didn't clean up their mess really didn't help
> either.
> > I
> > > personally picked up some trash off the trail though (although I
> > tend
> > > to do that anyways).
> > >
> > > I tried to explain that a majority of us are responsible
> wheelers,
> > do
> > > not destroy vegetation, and are not out to ruin the land.
> Somehow
> > I
> > > got the impression that they think our jeep bodies are stronger
> > than
> > > the rocks we rub against, and are destroying them.
> > >
> > > I'm not saying either party was right, we both have the legal
> right
> > > to be where we were, it's just that they hiked up to where they
> > > where, and witnessed what could be perceived as us "damaging"
the
> > > land, in their eyes.
> > >
> > > Now I didn't start an argument, but the truth is they were
> actually
> > > climbing and walking around on the rocks and walls, actually
> where
> > > there was existing vegetation....
> > >
> > > However, I am thankful that they weren't out there on the Friday
> > > night of the Jamboree to witness all the drunken idiots
throwing
> > > their beer cans all around.
> > >
> > > I've only been wheeling those trails regularly for a year or so
> > now,
> > > and have never seen them out there before.
> > >
> > > Dan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
69707 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 9:15am
Subject: [FS] WTB
Price: ??
Contact: Mike Baney (jeepin_in_az@yahoo.com
I am looking for a Hawes or Fairlead for my winch. Let me know what ya got!!
Mike Baney
69708 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 9:15am
Subject: RE: Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
Decal...no. But if you're good at etching.... ;)
Joey K
93YJ
-----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Garcia [mailto:leonardg@a...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:05 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
Does an AzxVJC decal qualify as a petroglyph?
--- In az_vjc@y..., "DesertJeep" <joey@d...> wrote:
>
> One mans Petroglyphs is another mans graffiti.
>
> So if I scratch some figures and stuff on some rocks you think in
800
> years or so it will become a protected area? Wouldn't that be a
terrible
> prank to play on your great great great great great great grand
> children!?
>
> My suggestion is to move any of the "petroglyphs" to a more secure
area.
> It's just a matter of time before the elements get to them if not
> vandals.
>
> Joey K
> 93YJ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: flatfenderman2000 [mailto:cnd4ever@g...]
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 6:41 PM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
>
>
> I have to wonder how all the petroglyphs in the area have managed
to
> survive for the last 800 yeas with out the intervention of groups
> like those encountered on LWP. Oh my GOD, what if it rains and that
> canyon turns into a raging river? All the evidence against you
nasty
> poluting rock crawlers will be washed away!
>
> I'll I can say is pray for rain folks, but it may already be too
late.
>
> Chris L.
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "BradP Kilgore" <brad.kilgore@p...> wrote:
> > Actually the Archeologists were of the senior variety as opposed
to
> > students and a little hypocritical. They were pleasant for the
most
> > part, but one moment were telling us were should not drive on the
> rocks
> > and the next second were gathered around, running across the rocks
> and
> > vegetation to take pictures of the jeeps climbing. Everybody
should
> > clean up after themselves, but we shouldn't all be punished for
the
> > failings of a few. Unfortunately, there will always be those who
> don't
> > care, and have no concern for anyone but themselves. All we can
do
> is
> > set the best example we can, do things the right way, pickup up
> after
> > ourselves and always tread lightly. Hopefully, someday these
groups
> > will come to realize we are not the enemy.
> >
> > My two cents.
> >
> > Brad
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sedonacowgirl [mailto:cowgirl@s...]
> > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 8:28 AM
> > To: az_vjc@y...
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
> >
> >
> > Howdy! Nothing like being falsely accused to ruin an otherwise
> > lovely day, huh? Probably once, that archeologist saw one Jeeper
> do
> > something dumb, if they ever saw anything at all. Just like
> > everything else, sometimes it is just one idiot in a group who
> ruins
> > it for everyone.
> >
> > What aggravates me is what you saw: they were tramping all over
> the
> > rocks and vegetation, but looking down their noses at you. I am
> > willing to bet that those were student archeologists, full of
self-
> > righteousness. It sounds like they were the uninformed
hypocrits.
> > Next time ask them if they know what microbiotic crust is, or the
> > TREAD Lightly rules...
> >
> > I guess this fires me up because I had my own unpleasant encounter
> > this weekend, the first of its kind that I have ever had. I was
> > doing a Broken Arrow tour. I had just gotten to the trailhead,
> when
> > a group of mountain bikers came flying by us. One of the women
> > shouted right into the Jeep as she flew by: "polluters!" I was
> > stunned, and uncharacteristically speechless.
> >
> > First, I have never had any unpleasant brushes with the public
> while
> > in a yellow Jeep (Pink Jeeps, yes, but not regular people).
> Second,
> > my retrofitted 2002 Sahara produces less emissions that her
> digestive
> > system. Third, I doubt that she arrived in Sedona in a solar
> powered
> > car, or that her high-tech bike and clothing was produced in an
> > emission-free factory. In fact, she probably drove a volkswagon
> that
> > smokes.
> >
> > In reflection, she probably just had an unpleasant interlude with
a
> > Pink Jeep on the trail, and I was there to receive HER
> frustration.
> >
> > My point is, people seem very quick to judge and jump to
> > conclusions. Everyone is very touchy about public land these
days,
> > and rightfully so...archeologists, bikers, and Jeepers, alike,
are
> > all worried about losing access to their beloved trails and
lands.
> >
> > The challenge I want to put to the group is: How can we bring
> mutual
> > understanding to all of these different groups that we all want
the
> > same thing: to protect and enjoy our public lands. We all are so
> > busy fighting each other that we lose sight of the fact that it
is
> > the policies of the Forest Service and BLM that we should be
> worried
> > about. I can't count how many Jeep trails have been shut down by
> the
> > Sedona Ranger District in the last two years. Meanwhile, they are
> > building another golf course...
> >
> > I know that this is a little heavy for Monday morning, but...
> >
> > Happy trails!
> >
> > Nena
> >
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Dan Coley" <crawlintj@y...> wrote:
> > > Halfway through Lower Woodpecker (at the first major crack)
today
> > > there are about a dozen people with clipboards climbing around
> the
> > > canyon walls, doing mappings of the paintings on the rocks.
> > Needless
> > > to say I got a bit of lip from them about us "driving on the
> > > paintings" and them wanting to get them mapped before the area
is
> > > closed because of four wheelers.
> > >
> > > The fact that there was quite a bit of oil on the rocks (for
> quite
> > a
> > > few yards) from someone that "lost their oil pan" (according to
> one
> > > of them) and didn't clean up their mess really didn't help
> either.
> > I
> > > personally picked up some trash off the trail though (although I
> > tend
> > > to do that anyways).
> > >
> > > I tried to explain that a majority of us are responsible
> wheelers,
> > do
> > > not destroy vegetation, and are not out to ruin the land.
> Somehow
> > I
> > > got the impression that they think our jeep bodies are stronger
> > than
> > > the rocks we rub against, and are destroying them.
> > >
> > > I'm not saying either party was right, we both have the legal
> right
> > > to be where we were, it's just that they hiked up to where they
> > > where, and witnessed what could be perceived as us "damaging"
the
> > > land, in their eyes.
> > >
> > > Now I didn't start an argument, but the truth is they were
> actually
> > > climbing and walking around on the rocks and walls, actually
> where
> > > there was existing vegetation....
> > >
> > > However, I am thankful that they weren't out there on the Friday
> > > night of the Jamboree to witness all the drunken idiots
throwing
> > > their beer cans all around.
> > >
> > > I've only been wheeling those trails regularly for a year or so
> > now,
> > > and have never seen them out there before.
> > >
> > > Dan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
69709 From: Trujillo, Jeff <jeff.trujillo@m...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 9:15am
Subject: RE: Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
I got some finger paints. We can paint some pretty horses and stick figures.
Jeffrey A. Trujillo
Field Service Representative
MD Helicopters, Inc.
jeff.trujillo@m...
Voice:(480)346-6249
Fax:(480)346-6813
-----Original Message-----
From: DesertJeep [mailto:joey@d...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:15 AM
To: 'Leonard Garcia'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
Decal...no. But if you're good at etching.... ;)
Joey K
93YJ
-----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Garcia [mailto:leonardg@a...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:05 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
Does an AzxVJC decal qualify as a petroglyph?
--- In az_vjc@y..., "DesertJeep" <joey@d...> wrote:
>
> One mans Petroglyphs is another mans graffiti.
>
> So if I scratch some figures and stuff on some rocks you think in
800
> years or so it will become a protected area? Wouldn't that be a
terrible
> prank to play on your great great great great great great grand
> children!?
>
> My suggestion is to move any of the "petroglyphs" to a more secure
area.
> It's just a matter of time before the elements get to them if not
> vandals.
>
> Joey K
> 93YJ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: flatfenderman2000 [mailto:cnd4ever@g...]
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 6:41 PM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
>
>
> I have to wonder how all the petroglyphs in the area have managed
to
> survive for the last 800 yeas with out the intervention of groups
> like those encountered on LWP. Oh my GOD, what if it rains and that
> canyon turns into a raging river? All the evidence against you
nasty
> poluting rock crawlers will be washed away!
>
> I'll I can say is pray for rain folks, but it may already be too
late.
>
> Chris L.
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "BradP Kilgore" <brad.kilgore@p...> wrote:
> > Actually the Archeologists were of the senior variety as opposed
to
> > students and a little hypocritical. They were pleasant for the
most
> > part, but one moment were telling us were should not drive on the
> rocks
> > and the next second were gathered around, running across the rocks
> and
> > vegetation to take pictures of the jeeps climbing. Everybody
should
> > clean up after themselves, but we shouldn't all be punished for
the
> > failings of a few. Unfortunately, there will always be those who
> don't
> > care, and have no concern for anyone but themselves. All we can
do
> is
> > set the best example we can, do things the right way, pickup up
> after
> > ourselves and always tread lightly. Hopefully, someday these
groups
> > will come to realize we are not the enemy.
> >
> > My two cents.
> >
> > Brad
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sedonacowgirl [mailto:cowgirl@s...]
> > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 8:28 AM
> > To: az_vjc@y...
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
> >
> >
> > Howdy! Nothing like being falsely accused to ruin an otherwise
> > lovely day, huh? Probably once, that archeologist saw one Jeeper
> do
> > something dumb, if they ever saw anything at all. Just like
> > everything else, sometimes it is just one idiot in a group who
> ruins
> > it for everyone.
> >
> > What aggravates me is what you saw: they were tramping all over
> the
> > rocks and vegetation, but looking down their noses at you. I am
> > willing to bet that those were student archeologists, full of
self-
> > righteousness. It sounds like they were the uninformed
hypocrits.
> > Next time ask them if they know what microbiotic crust is, or the
> > TREAD Lightly rules...
> >
> > I guess this fires me up because I had my own unpleasant encounter
> > this weekend, the first of its kind that I have ever had. I was
> > doing a Broken Arrow tour. I had just gotten to the trailhead,
> when
> > a group of mountain bikers came flying by us. One of the women
> > shouted right into the Jeep as she flew by: "polluters!" I was
> > stunned, and uncharacteristically speechless.
> >
> > First, I have never had any unpleasant brushes with the public
> while
> > in a yellow Jeep (Pink Jeeps, yes, but not regular people).
> Second,
> > my retrofitted 2002 Sahara produces less emissions that her
> digestive
> > system. Third, I doubt that she arrived in Sedona in a solar
> powered
> > car, or that her high-tech bike and clothing was produced in an
> > emission-free factory. In fact, she probably drove a volkswagon
> that
> > smokes.
> >
> > In reflection, she probably just had an unpleasant interlude with
a
> > Pink Jeep on the trail, and I was there to receive HER
> frustration.
> >
> > My point is, people seem very quick to judge and jump to
> > conclusions. Everyone is very touchy about public land these
days,
> > and rightfully so...archeologists, bikers, and Jeepers, alike,
are
> > all worried about losing access to their beloved trails and
lands.
> >
> > The challenge I want to put to the group is: How can we bring
> mutual
> > understanding to all of these different groups that we all want
the
> > same thing: to protect and enjoy our public lands. We all are so
> > busy fighting each other that we lose sight of the fact that it
is
> > the policies of the Forest Service and BLM that we should be
> worried
> > about. I can't count how many Jeep trails have been shut down by
> the
> > Sedona Ranger District in the last two years. Meanwhile, they are
> > building another golf course...
> >
> > I know that this is a little heavy for Monday morning, but...
> >
> > Happy trails!
> >
> > Nena
> >
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Dan Coley" <crawlintj@y...> wrote:
> > > Halfway through Lower Woodpecker (at the first major crack)
today
> > > there are about a dozen people with clipboards climbing around
> the
> > > canyon walls, doing mappings of the paintings on the rocks.
> > Needless
> > > to say I got a bit of lip from them about us "driving on the
> > > paintings" and them wanting to get them mapped before the area
is
> > > closed because of four wheelers.
> > >
> > > The fact that there was quite a bit of oil on the rocks (for
> quite
> > a
> > > few yards) from someone that "lost their oil pan" (according to
> one
> > > of them) and didn't clean up their mess really didn't help
> either.
> > I
> > > personally picked up some trash off the trail though (although I
> > tend
> > > to do that anyways).
> > >
> > > I tried to explain that a majority of us are responsible
> wheelers,
> > do
> > > not destroy vegetation, and are not out to ruin the land.
> Somehow
> > I
> > > got the impression that they think our jeep bodies are stronger
> > than
> > > the rocks we rub against, and are destroying them.
> > >
> > > I'm not saying either party was right, we both have the legal
> right
> > > to be where we were, it's just that they hiked up to where they
> > > where, and witnessed what could be perceived as us "damaging"
the
> > > land, in their eyes.
> > >
> > > Now I didn't start an argument, but the truth is they were
> actually
> > > climbing and walking around on the rocks and walls, actually
> where
> > > there was existing vegetation....
> > >
> > > However, I am thankful that they weren't out there on the Friday
> > > night of the Jamboree to witness all the drunken idiots
throwing
> > > their beer cans all around.
> > >
> > > I've only been wheeling those trails regularly for a year or so
> > now,
> > > and have never seen them out there before.
> > >
> > > Dan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
entities other than the intended recipient or employees of
MD Helicopters, Inc. is prohibited. If you received this in error, please
contact the sender by email and delete the material from any computer..
69710 From: Kent Warner <KnetAZ@q...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 9:38am
Subject: Tech Workshop Suggestion: Newbee Welding 101
What do folks think about doing a Newbee Welding Workshop? I don't
know how many beginning welders we have in the group, but I know I am
looking at getting a Miller 135 so I can do my CJ (freakin cheap
channel frames...) rebuild, and would like to be able to make a
decent weld quickly.
How many people would like to learn and how many experienced welders
would like to pass on some sage advice?
69711 From: Trujillo, Jeff <jeff.trujillo@m...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 9:45am
Subject: RE: Tech Workshop Suggestion: Newbee Welding 101
I know how to weld but haven't done it in a while. So maybe a refreasher for
me would be good. Also, I could use some good "buddies" with a welder!! LOL
Jeffrey A. Trujillo
Field Service Representative
MD Helicopters, Inc.
jeff.trujillo@m...
Voice:(480)346-6249
Fax:(480)346-6813
-----Original Message-----
From: Kent Warner [mailto:KnetAZ@q...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:38 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Tech Workshop Suggestion: Newbee Welding 101
What do folks think about doing a Newbee Welding Workshop? I don't
know how many beginning welders we have in the group, but I know I am
looking at getting a Miller 135 so I can do my CJ (freakin cheap
channel frames...) rebuild, and would like to be able to make a
decent weld quickly.
How many people would like to learn and how many experienced welders
would like to pass on some sage advice?
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
entities other than the intended recipient or employees of
MD Helicopters, Inc. is prohibited. If you received this in error, please
contact the sender by email and delete the material from any computer..
69712 From: azredrocker <gotrox@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 9:59am
Subject: Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
What do you need finger paint for, there is enough paint on the rocks
from body rub. In a few hundred years they will be talking about how
the paint and oil stains got on the rocks then fly off in there
Virtual Hovercraft.
Welcome to the world of Earth Cookies, YOU WILL NEVER WIN THEM OVER!!!
Neal Han****,
ARC
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Trujillo, Jeff" <jeff.trujillo@m...> wrote:
> I got some finger paints. We can paint some pretty horses and stick
figures.
>
> Jeffrey A. Trujillo
> Field Service Representative
> MD Helicopters, Inc.
> jeff.trujillo@m...
> Voice:(480)346-6249
> Fax:(480)346-6813
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DesertJeep [mailto:joey@d...]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:15 AM
> To: 'Leonard Garcia'; az_vjc@y...
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
>
>
> Decal...no. But if you're good at etching.... ;)
> Joey K
> 93YJ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leonard Garcia [mailto:leonardg@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:05 AM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
>
>
> Does an AzxVJC decal qualify as a petroglyph?
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "DesertJeep" <joey@d...> wrote:
> >
> > One mans Petroglyphs is another mans graffiti.
> >
> > So if I scratch some figures and stuff on some rocks you think in
> 800
> > years or so it will become a protected area? Wouldn't that be a
> terrible
> > prank to play on your great great great great great great grand
> > children!?
> >
> > My suggestion is to move any of the "petroglyphs" to a more secure
> area.
> > It's just a matter of time before the elements get to them if not
> > vandals.
> >
> > Joey K
> > 93YJ
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: flatfenderman2000 [mailto:cnd4ever@g...]
> > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 6:41 PM
> > To: az_vjc@y...
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
> >
> >
> > I have to wonder how all the petroglyphs in the area have managed
> to
> > survive for the last 800 yeas with out the intervention of groups
> > like those encountered on LWP. Oh my GOD, what if it rains and
that
> > canyon turns into a raging river? All the evidence against you
> nasty
> > poluting rock crawlers will be washed away!
> >
> > I'll I can say is pray for rain folks, but it may already be too
> late.
> >
> > Chris L.
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "BradP Kilgore" <brad.kilgore@p...> wrote:
> > > Actually the Archeologists were of the senior variety as opposed
> to
> > > students and a little hypocritical. They were pleasant for the
> most
> > > part, but one moment were telling us were should not drive on
the
> > rocks
> > > and the next second were gathered around, running across the
rocks
> > and
> > > vegetation to take pictures of the jeeps climbing. Everybody
> should
> > > clean up after themselves, but we shouldn't all be punished for
> the
> > > failings of a few. Unfortunately, there will always be those
who
> > don't
> > > care, and have no concern for anyone but themselves. All we can
> do
> > is
> > > set the best example we can, do things the right way, pickup up
> > after
> > > ourselves and always tread lightly. Hopefully, someday these
> groups
> > > will come to realize we are not the enemy.
> > >
> > > My two cents.
> > >
> > > Brad
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: sedonacowgirl [mailto:cowgirl@s...]
> > > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 8:28 AM
> > > To: az_vjc@y...
> > > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
> > >
> > >
> > > Howdy! Nothing like being falsely accused to ruin an otherwise
> > > lovely day, huh? Probably once, that archeologist saw one
Jeeper
> > do
> > > something dumb, if they ever saw anything at all. Just like
> > > everything else, sometimes it is just one idiot in a group who
> > ruins
> > > it for everyone.
> > >
> > > What aggravates me is what you saw: they were tramping all over
> > the
> > > rocks and vegetation, but looking down their noses at you. I am
> > > willing to bet that those were student archeologists, full of
> self-
> > > righteousness. It sounds like they were the uninformed
> hypocrits.
> > > Next time ask them if they know what microbiotic crust is, or
the
> > > TREAD Lightly rules...
> > >
> > > I guess this fires me up because I had my own unpleasant
encounter
> > > this weekend, the first of its kind that I have ever had. I
was
> > > doing a Broken Arrow tour. I had just gotten to the trailhead,
> > when
> > > a group of mountain bikers came flying by us. One of the women
> > > shouted right into the Jeep as she flew by: "polluters!" I was
> > > stunned, and uncharacteristically speechless.
> > >
> > > First, I have never had any unpleasant brushes with the public
> > while
> > > in a yellow Jeep (Pink Jeeps, yes, but not regular people).
> > Second,
> > > my retrofitted 2002 Sahara produces less emissions that her
> > digestive
> > > system. Third, I doubt that she arrived in Sedona in a solar
> > powered
> > > car, or that her high-tech bike and clothing was produced in an
> > > emission-free factory. In fact, she probably drove a volkswagon
> > that
> > > smokes.
> > >
> > > In reflection, she probably just had an unpleasant interlude
with
> a
> > > Pink Jeep on the trail, and I was there to receive HER
> > frustration.
> > >
> > > My point is, people seem very quick to judge and jump to
> > > conclusions. Everyone is very touchy about public land these
> days,
> > > and rightfully so...archeologists, bikers, and Jeepers, alike,
> are
> > > all worried about losing access to their beloved trails and
> lands.
> > >
> > > The challenge I want to put to the group is: How can we bring
> > mutual
> > > understanding to all of these different groups that we all want
> the
> > > same thing: to protect and enjoy our public lands. We all are
so
> > > busy fighting each other that we lose sight of the fact that it
> is
> > > the policies of the Forest Service and BLM that we should be
> > worried
> > > about. I can't count how many Jeep trails have been shut down
by
> > the
> > > Sedona Ranger District in the last two years. Meanwhile, they
are
> > > building another golf course...
> > >
> > > I know that this is a little heavy for Monday morning, but...
> > >
> > > Happy trails!
> > >
> > > Nena
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Dan Coley" <crawlintj@y...> wrote:
> > > > Halfway through Lower Woodpecker (at the first major crack)
> today
> > > > there are about a dozen people with clipboards climbing around
> > the
> > > > canyon walls, doing mappings of the paintings on the rocks.
> > > Needless
> > > > to say I got a bit of lip from them about us "driving on the
> > > > paintings" and them wanting to get them mapped before the area
> is
> > > > closed because of four wheelers.
> > > >
> > > > The fact that there was quite a bit of oil on the rocks (for
> > quite
> > > a
> > > > few yards) from someone that "lost their oil pan" (according
to
> > one
> > > > of them) and didn't clean up their mess really didn't help
> > either.
> > > I
> > > > personally picked up some trash off the trail though
(although I
> > > tend
> > > > to do that anyways).
> > > >
> > > > I tried to explain that a majority of us are responsible
> > wheelers,
> > > do
> > > > not destroy vegetation, and are not out to ruin the land.
> > Somehow
> > > I
> > > > got the impression that they think our jeep bodies are
stronger
> > > than
> > > > the rocks we rub against, and are destroying them.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not saying either party was right, we both have the legal
> > right
> > > > to be where we were, it's just that they hiked up to where
they
> > > > where, and witnessed what could be perceived as us "damaging"
> the
> > > > land, in their eyes.
> > > >
> > > > Now I didn't start an argument, but the truth is they were
> > actually
> > > > climbing and walking around on the rocks and walls, actually
> > where
> > > > there was existing vegetation....
> > > >
> > > > However, I am thankful that they weren't out there on the
Friday
> > > > night of the Jamboree to witness all the drunken idiots
> throwing
> > > > their beer cans all around.
> > > >
> > > > I've only been wheeling those trails regularly for a year or
so
> > > now,
> > > > and have never seen them out there before.
> > > >
> > > > Dan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or
entity to
> which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or
privileged
> material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use
of, or
> taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons
or
> entities other than the intended recipient or employees of
> MD Helicopters, Inc. is prohibited. If you received this in
error, please
> contact the sender by email and delete the material from any
computer..
69713 From: Bill - Jeeps Only <bill@j...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 10:23am
Subject: Re: Tech Workshop Suggestion: Newbee Welding 101
I'd be very interested!
---------------
Bill Hooven
Jeeps Only
http://www.jeepsonly.com
A Yahoo-style directory of Jeep links
---------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Warner" <KnetAZ@q...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:38 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Tech Workshop Suggestion: Newbee Welding 101
> What do folks think about doing a Newbee Welding Workshop? I don't
> know how many beginning welders we have in the group, but I know I am
> looking at getting a Miller 135 so I can do my CJ (freakin cheap
> channel frames...) rebuild, and would like to be able to make a
> decent weld quickly.
>
> How many people would like to learn and how many experienced welders
> would like to pass on some sage advice?
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
69714 From: Rob Williams <g_rob_williams@y...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 10:19am
Subject: Re: Tech Workshop Suggestion: Newbee Welding 101
You just gotta remember... if it sounds like your frying bacon...
your doing pretty good! :) (thats the first thing I was told by my
dad when he showed me how to use his wire fed MIG) -Rob
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Kent Warner" <KnetAZ@q...> wrote:
> What do folks think about doing a Newbee Welding Workshop? I
don't
> know how many beginning welders we have in the group, but I know I
am
> looking at getting a Miller 135 so I can do my CJ (freakin cheap
> channel frames...) rebuild, and would like to be able to make a
> decent weld quickly.
>
> How many people would like to learn and how many experienced
welders
> would like to pass on some sage advice?
69715 From: Rob Williams <g_rob_williams@y...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 10:21am
Subject: SEMA 2002
Well have a good week/weekend... I am packing up and heading out to
SEMA tomorrow! -Rob
69716 From: Trujillo, Jeff <jeff.trujillo@m...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 10:09am
Subject: RE: Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
See, all the rock and tree huggers won't have anything to worry about in 10
years. We will all be hovering around in our Virtual Jeeps. So were already
ahead of the game. Are we all sure whoever came up with "Virtual Jeep Club"
really ain't part of the Sahara Club? LOL
Jeffrey A. Trujillo
Field Service Representative
MD Helicopters, Inc.
jeff.trujillo@m...
Voice:(480)346-6249
Fax:(480)346-6813
-----Original Message-----
From: azredrocker [mailto:gotrox@c...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 11:00 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
What do you need finger paint for, there is enough paint on the rocks
from body rub. In a few hundred years they will be talking about how
the paint and oil stains got on the rocks then fly off in there
Virtual Hovercraft.
Welcome to the world of Earth Cookies, YOU WILL NEVER WIN THEM OVER!!!
Neal Han****,
ARC
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Trujillo, Jeff" <jeff.trujillo@m...> wrote:
> I got some finger paints. We can paint some pretty horses and stick
figures.
>
> Jeffrey A. Trujillo
> Field Service Representative
> MD Helicopters, Inc.
> jeff.trujillo@m...
> Voice:(480)346-6249
> Fax:(480)346-6813
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DesertJeep [mailto:joey@d...]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:15 AM
> To: 'Leonard Garcia'; az_vjc@y...
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
>
>
> Decal...no. But if you're good at etching.... ;)
> Joey K
> 93YJ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leonard Garcia [mailto:leonardg@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:05 AM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
>
>
> Does an AzxVJC decal qualify as a petroglyph?
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "DesertJeep" <joey@d...> wrote:
> >
> > One mans Petroglyphs is another mans graffiti.
> >
> > So if I scratch some figures and stuff on some rocks you think in
> 800
> > years or so it will become a protected area? Wouldn't that be a
> terrible
> > prank to play on your great great great great great great grand
> > children!?
> >
> > My suggestion is to move any of the "petroglyphs" to a more secure
> area.
> > It's just a matter of time before the elements get to them if not
> > vandals.
> >
> > Joey K
> > 93YJ
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: flatfenderman2000 [mailto:cnd4ever@g...]
> > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 6:41 PM
> > To: az_vjc@y...
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
> >
> >
> > I have to wonder how all the petroglyphs in the area have managed
> to
> > survive for the last 800 yeas with out the intervention of groups
> > like those encountered on LWP. Oh my GOD, what if it rains and
that
> > canyon turns into a raging river? All the evidence against you
> nasty
> > poluting rock crawlers will be washed away!
> >
> > I'll I can say is pray for rain folks, but it may already be too
> late.
> >
> > Chris L.
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "BradP Kilgore" <brad.kilgore@p...> wrote:
> > > Actually the Archeologists were of the senior variety as opposed
> to
> > > students and a little hypocritical. They were pleasant for the
> most
> > > part, but one moment were telling us were should not drive on
the
> > rocks
> > > and the next second were gathered around, running across the
rocks
> > and
> > > vegetation to take pictures of the jeeps climbing. Everybody
> should
> > > clean up after themselves, but we shouldn't all be punished for
> the
> > > failings of a few. Unfortunately, there will always be those
who
> > don't
> > > care, and have no concern for anyone but themselves. All we can
> do
> > is
> > > set the best example we can, do things the right way, pickup up
> > after
> > > ourselves and always tread lightly. Hopefully, someday these
> groups
> > > will come to realize we are not the enemy.
> > >
> > > My two cents.
> > >
> > > Brad
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: sedonacowgirl [mailto:cowgirl@s...]
> > > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 8:28 AM
> > > To: az_vjc@y...
> > > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
> > >
> > >
> > > Howdy! Nothing like being falsely accused to ruin an otherwise
> > > lovely day, huh? Probably once, that archeologist saw one
Jeeper
> > do
> > > something dumb, if they ever saw anything at all. Just like
> > > everything else, sometimes it is just one idiot in a group who
> > ruins
> > > it for everyone.
> > >
> > > What aggravates me is what you saw: they were tramping all over
> > the
> > > rocks and vegetation, but looking down their noses at you. I am
> > > willing to bet that those were student archeologists, full of
> self-
> > > righteousness. It sounds like they were the uninformed
> hypocrits.
> > > Next time ask them if they know what microbiotic crust is, or
the
> > > TREAD Lightly rules...
> > >
> > > I guess this fires me up because I had my own unpleasant
encounter
> > > this weekend, the first of its kind that I have ever had. I
was
> > > doing a Broken Arrow tour. I had just gotten to the trailhead,
> > when
> > > a group of mountain bikers came flying by us. One of the women
> > > shouted right into the Jeep as she flew by: "polluters!" I was
> > > stunned, and uncharacteristically speechless.
> > >
> > > First, I have never had any unpleasant brushes with the public
> > while
> > > in a yellow Jeep (Pink Jeeps, yes, but not regular people).
> > Second,
> > > my retrofitted 2002 Sahara produces less emissions that her
> > digestive
> > > system. Third, I doubt that she arrived in Sedona in a solar
> > powered
> > > car, or that her high-tech bike and clothing was produced in an
> > > emission-free factory. In fact, she probably drove a volkswagon
> > that
> > > smokes.
> > >
> > > In reflection, she probably just had an unpleasant interlude
with
> a
> > > Pink Jeep on the trail, and I was there to receive HER
> > frustration.
> > >
> > > My point is, people seem very quick to judge and jump to
> > > conclusions. Everyone is very touchy about public land these
> days,
> > > and rightfully so...archeologists, bikers, and Jeepers, alike,
> are
> > > all worried about losing access to their beloved trails and
> lands.
> > >
> > > The challenge I want to put to the group is: How can we bring
> > mutual
> > > understanding to all of these different groups that we all want
> the
> > > same thing: to protect and enjoy our public lands. We all are
so
> > > busy fighting each other that we lose sight of the fact that it
> is
> > > the policies of the Forest Service and BLM that we should be
> > worried
> > > about. I can't count how many Jeep trails have been shut down
by
> > the
> > > Sedona Ranger District in the last two years. Meanwhile, they
are
> > > building another golf course...
> > >
> > > I know that this is a little heavy for Monday morning, but...
> > >
> > > Happy trails!
> > >
> > > Nena
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Dan Coley" <crawlintj@y...> wrote:
> > > > Halfway through Lower Woodpecker (at the first major crack)
> today
> > > > there are about a dozen people with clipboards climbing around
> > the
> > > > canyon walls, doing mappings of the paintings on the rocks.
> > > Needless
> > > > to say I got a bit of lip from them about us "driving on the
> > > > paintings" and them wanting to get them mapped before the area
> is
> > > > closed because of four wheelers.
> > > >
> > > > The fact that there was quite a bit of oil on the rocks (for
> > quite
> > > a
> > > > few yards) from someone that "lost their oil pan" (according
to
> > one
> > > > of them) and didn't clean up their mess really didn't help
> > either.
> > > I
> > > > personally picked up some trash off the trail though
(although I
> > > tend
> > > > to do that anyways).
> > > >
> > > > I tried to explain that a majority of us are responsible
> > wheelers,
> > > do
> > > > not destroy vegetation, and are not out to ruin the land.
> > Somehow
> > > I
> > > > got the impression that they think our jeep bodies are
stronger
> > > than
> > > > the rocks we rub against, and are destroying them.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not saying either party was right, we both have the legal
> > right
> > > > to be where we were, it's just that they hiked up to where
they
> > > > where, and witnessed what could be perceived as us "damaging"
> the
> > > > land, in their eyes.
> > > >
> > > > Now I didn't start an argument, but the truth is they were
> > actually
> > > > climbing and walking around on the rocks and walls, actually
> > where
> > > > there was existing vegetation....
> > > >
> > > > However, I am thankful that they weren't out there on the
Friday
> > > > night of the Jamboree to witness all the drunken idiots
> throwing
> > > > their beer cans all around.
> > > >
> > > > I've only been wheeling those trails regularly for a year or
so
> > > now,
> > > > and have never seen them out there before.
> > > >
> > > > Dan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or
entity to
> which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or
privileged
> material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use
of, or
> taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons
or
> entities other than the intended recipient or employees of
> MD Helicopters, Inc. is prohibited. If you received this in
error, please
> contact the sender by email and delete the material from any
computer..
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
entities other than the intended recipient or employees of
MD Helicopters, Inc. is prohibited. If you received this in error, please
contact the sender by email and delete the material from any computer..
69717 From: <cowboy7575@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 5:27am
Subject: RE: Garmin GPS Topo Maps
Well here is what I did. I originally bought a nice Magellen GPS unit but I now run a laptop with Delorme Topo USA. Not only does the laptop have a bigger screen and nice color, but the GPS works great. I would never go back to a small GPS/Map again. I use it mostly in my XJ, ZJ and MJ but have mounted it in my YJ too. You can easily mount it low or up and out of the way. It doesnt seem to get in my way.........well not much but you get used to it. I bought a used Dell P233 on Ebay for less than $200, a car power adaptor for $40 on Ebay, the software was $89 and Staples and I bought the Rand McNally GPS receiver on Ebay for $55. Oh I forgot, I also bought a nice laptop mount/stand for my Jeep called a Jotto Desk I think, that wasnt cheap, over $100 on Ebay but I am sure an enterprising person could fab something. Considering the price a a good handheld unit and its limitations (well you can carry it with you, something you cant with the laptop, ok it does have at least one advantage), the set up I have is not that much more and in some cases less and much more practical when driving.........I dont get lost anymore.....even in a city :-)
Mike
69718 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 10:28am
Subject: [FS] Hi Lift, CB, Tires, K&N, FSM, Chiltons
Price:
Contact: kmichael02@yahoo.com, 480 967 9792
Hi Lift---used good shape $35
cb(maxon) ant. 4ftfiber, cable, all wiring mounting
hardware. wire proper lenght for yj tj, will work on rack of xj/wj/zj 50$
k&n; air filter good shape no problems 92-95 yj
30 9.50-15 futura mud tires, good condition 75$
Factory service manual on cd, for computer. acrobat reader 20 yj xj only
chiltons 74-95 wrangler 10
email for questions
kmichael02@yahoo.com
call anytime weekends especially 480 967 9792
Michaelk
69719 From: azredrocker <gotrox@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 11:10am
Subject: Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
A few years ago I was wheeling in Martinez when Dave Elliot broke a
drive shaft. About halfway through the repair some tree huggers came
up the trail hiking to Silverbell Mine. They had choice words for use
being broke on the trail they where hiking. In fact they told use we
had no business on the trail and that we were ruining the habitat of
the canyon. Of course being someone who likes his foot in his mouth,
I let the beosh know how I felt about her opinion. When we finally
got back to the Cabins, there vehicle was still parked there. What do
you think her bumper had on it.
"Sierra Club"
"DIE EARTHCOOKIES DIE"
Just my .02
Neal Han****
ARC
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Trujillo, Jeff" <jeff.trujillo@m...> wrote:
> See, all the rock and tree huggers won't have anything to worry
about in 10
> years. We will all be hovering around in our Virtual Jeeps. So were
already
> ahead of the game. Are we all sure whoever came up with "Virtual
Jeep Club"
> really ain't part of the Sahara Club? LOL
>
> Jeffrey A. Trujillo
> Field Service Representative
> MD Helicopters, Inc.
> jeff.trujillo@m...
> Voice:(480)346-6249
> Fax:(480)346-6813
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: azredrocker [mailto:gotrox@c...]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 11:00 AM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
>
>
> What do you need finger paint for, there is enough paint on the
rocks
> from body rub. In a few hundred years they will be talking about
how
> the paint and oil stains got on the rocks then fly off in there
> Virtual Hovercraft.
>
> Welcome to the world of Earth Cookies, YOU WILL NEVER WIN THEM
OVER!!!
>
>
> Neal Han****,
> ARC
>
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Trujillo, Jeff" <jeff.trujillo@m...> wrote:
> > I got some finger paints. We can paint some pretty horses and
stick
> figures.
> >
> > Jeffrey A. Trujillo
> > Field Service Representative
> > MD Helicopters, Inc.
> > jeff.trujillo@m...
> > Voice:(480)346-6249
> > Fax:(480)346-6813
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DesertJeep [mailto:joey@d...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:15 AM
> > To: 'Leonard Garcia'; az_vjc@y...
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
> >
> >
> > Decal...no. But if you're good at etching.... ;)
> > Joey K
> > 93YJ
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Leonard Garcia [mailto:leonardg@a...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:05 AM
> > To: az_vjc@y...
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
> >
> >
> > Does an AzxVJC decal qualify as a petroglyph?
> >
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "DesertJeep" <joey@d...> wrote:
> > >
> > > One mans Petroglyphs is another mans graffiti.
> > >
> > > So if I scratch some figures and stuff on some rocks you think
in
> > 800
> > > years or so it will become a protected area? Wouldn't that be a
> > terrible
> > > prank to play on your great great great great great great grand
> > > children!?
> > >
> > > My suggestion is to move any of the "petroglyphs" to a more
secure
> > area.
> > > It's just a matter of time before the elements get to them if
not
> > > vandals.
> > >
> > > Joey K
> > > 93YJ
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: flatfenderman2000 [mailto:cnd4ever@g...]
> > > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 6:41 PM
> > > To: az_vjc@y...
> > > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
> > >
> > >
> > > I have to wonder how all the petroglyphs in the area have
managed
> > to
> > > survive for the last 800 yeas with out the intervention of
groups
> > > like those encountered on LWP. Oh my GOD, what if it rains and
> that
> > > canyon turns into a raging river? All the evidence against you
> > nasty
> > > poluting rock crawlers will be washed away!
> > >
> > > I'll I can say is pray for rain folks, but it may already be too
> > late.
> > >
> > > Chris L.
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@y..., "BradP Kilgore" <brad.kilgore@p...> wrote:
> > > > Actually the Archeologists were of the senior variety as
opposed
> > to
> > > > students and a little hypocritical. They were pleasant for
the
> > most
> > > > part, but one moment were telling us were should not drive on
> the
> > > rocks
> > > > and the next second were gathered around, running across the
> rocks
> > > and
> > > > vegetation to take pictures of the jeeps climbing. Everybody
> > should
> > > > clean up after themselves, but we shouldn't all be punished
for
> > the
> > > > failings of a few. Unfortunately, there will always be those
> who
> > > don't
> > > > care, and have no concern for anyone but themselves. All we
can
> > do
> > > is
> > > > set the best example we can, do things the right way, pickup
up
> > > after
> > > > ourselves and always tread lightly. Hopefully, someday these
> > groups
> > > > will come to realize we are not the enemy.
> > > >
> > > > My two cents.
> > > >
> > > > Brad
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: sedonacowgirl [mailto:cowgirl@s...]
> > > > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 8:28 AM
> > > > To: az_vjc@y...
> > > > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Howdy! Nothing like being falsely accused to ruin an
otherwise
> > > > lovely day, huh? Probably once, that archeologist saw one
> Jeeper
> > > do
> > > > something dumb, if they ever saw anything at all. Just like
> > > > everything else, sometimes it is just one idiot in a group who
> > > ruins
> > > > it for everyone.
> > > >
> > > > What aggravates me is what you saw: they were tramping all
over
> > > the
> > > > rocks and vegetation, but looking down their noses at you. I
am
> > > > willing to bet that those were student archeologists, full of
> > self-
> > > > righteousness. It sounds like they were the uninformed
> > hypocrits.
> > > > Next time ask them if they know what microbiotic crust is, or
> the
> > > > TREAD Lightly rules...
> > > >
> > > > I guess this fires me up because I had my own unpleasant
> encounter
> > > > this weekend, the first of its kind that I have ever had. I
> was
> > > > doing a Broken Arrow tour. I had just gotten to the
trailhead,
> > > when
> > > > a group of mountain bikers came flying by us. One of the
women
> > > > shouted right into the Jeep as she flew by: "polluters!" I
was
> > > > stunned, and uncharacteristically speechless.
> > > >
> > > > First, I have never had any unpleasant brushes with the public
> > > while
> > > > in a yellow Jeep (Pink Jeeps, yes, but not regular people).
> > > Second,
> > > > my retrofitted 2002 Sahara produces less emissions that her
> > > digestive
> > > > system. Third, I doubt that she arrived in Sedona in a solar
> > > powered
> > > > car, or that her high-tech bike and clothing was produced in
an
> > > > emission-free factory. In fact, she probably drove a
volkswagon
> > > that
> > > > smokes.
> > > >
> > > > In reflection, she probably just had an unpleasant interlude
> with
> > a
> > > > Pink Jeep on the trail, and I was there to receive HER
> > > frustration.
> > > >
> > > > My point is, people seem very quick to judge and jump to
> > > > conclusions. Everyone is very touchy about public land these
> > days,
> > > > and rightfully so...archeologists, bikers, and Jeepers, alike,
> > are
> > > > all worried about losing access to their beloved trails and
> > lands.
> > > >
> > > > The challenge I want to put to the group is: How can we bring
> > > mutual
> > > > understanding to all of these different groups that we all
want
> > the
> > > > same thing: to protect and enjoy our public lands. We all
are
> so
> > > > busy fighting each other that we lose sight of the fact that
it
> > is
> > > > the policies of the Forest Service and BLM that we should be
> > > worried
> > > > about. I can't count how many Jeep trails have been shut
down
> by
> > > the
> > > > Sedona Ranger District in the last two years. Meanwhile, they
> are
> > > > building another golf course...
> > > >
> > > > I know that this is a little heavy for Monday morning, but...
> > > >
> > > > Happy trails!
> > > >
> > > > Nena
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Dan Coley" <crawlintj@y...> wrote:
> > > > > Halfway through Lower Woodpecker (at the first major crack)
> > today
> > > > > there are about a dozen people with clipboards climbing
around
> > > the
> > > > > canyon walls, doing mappings of the paintings on the rocks.
> > > > Needless
> > > > > to say I got a bit of lip from them about us "driving on
the
> > > > > paintings" and them wanting to get them mapped before the
area
> > is
> > > > > closed because of four wheelers.
> > > > >
> > > > > The fact that there was quite a bit of oil on the rocks (for
> > > quite
> > > > a
> > > > > few yards) from someone that "lost their oil pan"
(according
> to
> > > one
> > > > > of them) and didn't clean up their mess really didn't help
> > > either.
> > > > I
> > > > > personally picked up some trash off the trail though
> (although I
> > > > tend
> > > > > to do that anyways).
> > > > >
> > > > > I tried to explain that a majority of us are responsible
> > > wheelers,
> > > > do
> > > > > not destroy vegetation, and are not out to ruin the land.
> > > Somehow
> > > > I
> > > > > got the impression that they think our jeep bodies are
> stronger
> > > > than
> > > > > the rocks we rub against, and are destroying them.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not saying either party was right, we both have the
legal
> > > right
> > > > > to be where we were, it's just that they hiked up to where
> they
> > > > > where, and witnessed what could be perceived as
us "damaging"
> > the
> > > > > land, in their eyes.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now I didn't start an argument, but the truth is they were
> > > actually
> > > > > climbing and walking around on the rocks and walls, actually
> > > where
> > > > > there was existing vegetation....
> > > > >
> > > > > However, I am thankful that they weren't out there on the
> Friday
> > > > > night of the Jamboree to witness all the drunken idiots
> > throwing
> > > > > their beer cans all around.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've only been wheeling those trails regularly for a year
or
> so
> > > > now,
> > > > > and have never seen them out there before.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> --------
> > The information transmitted is intended only for the person or
> entity to
> > which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or
> privileged
> > material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use
> of, or
> > taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by
persons
> or
> > entities other than the intended recipient or employees of
> > MD Helicopters, Inc. is prohibited. If you received this in
> error, please
> > contact the sender by email and delete the material from any
> computer..
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or
entity to
> which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or
privileged
> material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use
of, or
> taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons
or
> entities other than the intended recipient or employees of
> MD Helicopters, Inc. is prohibited. If you received this in
error, please
> contact the sender by email and delete the material from any
computer..
69720 From: purple <purp8@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 11:28am
Subject: RE: SEMA 2002
Rob , My Dad and I are going to SEMA in the am also . Maybe we'll see you
there ( even though I don't know what you look like )....
Purple .
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Williams [mailto:g_rob_williams@y...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 11:21 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] SEMA 2002
Well have a good week/weekend... I am packing up and heading out to
SEMA tomorrow! -Rob
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
69721 From: flyingmonkeydemon <hockeydawg@m...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 11:16am
Subject: New lift...wrenching party?
I just bought a new Rubicon Express lift for my TJ, now I need to put it on. I am
mechanicaly inclined, I have a garage, however what I don't have is a decent
set of tools. If anyone wants to donate some time and tools, I will supply beer,
pizza and whatever else is needed. I live in El Mirage but am willing to make
the trek across the valley if someone wants to volunteer over there. Let me
know. I work nights so weekends work best for me. TIA.
Mike Johnson
69722 From: pnwxjaaron <ridetimeless158@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 11:24am
Subject: Front locker problems
Hey all, i'm looking for someone to help me figure out whats wrong
with my front locker. On the tail end of 42 this last Sunday I got
myself lined up for a little rockcrawling when all of a sudden i'm 3
wheel drive instead of 4! needless to say I was a little peeved...
Powertrax told me to have it looked at and let them know what was
found to be wrong... however I am broke :( if anyone can help me out
it would be greatly appreciated!
69723 From: Trujillo, Jeff <jeff.trujillo@m...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 11:17am
Subject: RE: New lift...wrenching party?
I have a pretty good set of tools. I have air tools also but no air. I have
a really big area to work with, lights also (for the night wrenching). I
live at Mesa Drive and Southern. If you want to get a few people together, I
also have a pool table and darts for when it was done. Let me know.
Jeffrey A. Trujillo
Cell 480-213-1976
Home 480-649-5588
-----Original Message-----
From: flyingmonkeydemon [mailto:hockeydawg@m...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 12:17 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] New lift...wrenching party?
I just bought a new Rubicon Express lift for my TJ, now I need to put it on.
I am
mechanicaly inclined, I have a garage, however what I don't have is a
decent
set of tools. If anyone wants to donate some time and tools, I will supply
beer,
pizza and whatever else is needed. I live in El Mirage but am willing to
make
the trek across the valley if someone wants to volunteer over there. Let me
know. I work nights so weekends work best for me. TIA.
Mike Johnson
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
entities other than the intended recipient or employees of
MD Helicopters, Inc. is prohibited. If you received this in error, please
contact the sender by email and delete the material from any computer..
69724 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 11:31am
Subject: [TR] Trip Report - FR-42 - Sunday, November 3, 2002
Hello All,
Chris Benner lead a trail run Sunday, November 3, 2002 across FR-42
Well we had 19 signups with 15 definates. Then we had 28 people actually show up. wow.. Sorry the trail was very "stop n go ish" next time we'll HAVE to split the group up. All in All it was a fun trip. Got to push a couple of people without lockers, Steve about rolled it but Jim came to the rescue. I guess I should have posted that XJ's should expect fender damage, sorry rick. :) I think I can figure out the whole run on my own now. Plus Eric was able to get the gps cords mapped out. We'll have to do it again with a smaller group :) Lots of pictures are posted at http://www.thejeepfiles.com
Click Here to View Pictures (if available)
Thank You,
- The AzVJC Website
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69700 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 8:08am
Subject: [FS] JEEP PARTS
Price:
Contact: DEREK 623-329-8174
84 CJ 7 PARTS
4 CYL COMPLETE MAKE OFFER IN RUNNING CONDITION
4 SPD TRANS MAKE OFFER
300 TRANSFER CASE HAVE 2 FOR SALE
MISC SMALL PARTS ANY QUES GIVE ME A CALL
DEREK DREAGER
623-329-8174
DEREK DREAGER
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
69701 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 8:09am
Subject: RE: Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
One mans Petroglyphs is another mans graffiti.
So if I scratch some figures and stuff on some rocks you think in 800
years or so it will become a protected area? Wouldn't that be a terrible
prank to play on your great great great great great great grand
children!?
My suggestion is to move any of the "petroglyphs" to a more secure area.
It's just a matter of time before the elements get to them if not
vandals.
Joey K
93YJ
-----Original Message-----
From: flatfenderman2000 [mailto:cnd4ever@g...]
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 6:41 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
I have to wonder how all the petroglyphs in the area have managed to
survive for the last 800 yeas with out the intervention of groups
like those encountered on LWP. Oh my GOD, what if it rains and that
canyon turns into a raging river? All the evidence against you nasty
poluting rock crawlers will be washed away!
I'll I can say is pray for rain folks, but it may already be too late.
Chris L.
--- In az_vjc@y..., "BradP Kilgore" <brad.kilgore@p...> wrote:
> Actually the Archeologists were of the senior variety as opposed to
> students and a little hypocritical. They were pleasant for the most
> part, but one moment were telling us were should not drive on the
rocks
> and the next second were gathered around, running across the rocks
and
> vegetation to take pictures of the jeeps climbing. Everybody should
> clean up after themselves, but we shouldn't all be punished for the
> failings of a few. Unfortunately, there will always be those who
don't
> care, and have no concern for anyone but themselves. All we can do
is
> set the best example we can, do things the right way, pickup up
after
> ourselves and always tread lightly. Hopefully, someday these groups
> will come to realize we are not the enemy.
>
> My two cents.
>
> Brad
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sedonacowgirl [mailto:cowgirl@s...]
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 8:28 AM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
>
>
> Howdy! Nothing like being falsely accused to ruin an otherwise
> lovely day, huh? Probably once, that archeologist saw one Jeeper
do
> something dumb, if they ever saw anything at all. Just like
> everything else, sometimes it is just one idiot in a group who
ruins
> it for everyone.
>
> What aggravates me is what you saw: they were tramping all over
the
> rocks and vegetation, but looking down their noses at you. I am
> willing to bet that those were student archeologists, full of self-
> righteousness. It sounds like they were the uninformed hypocrits.
> Next time ask them if they know what microbiotic crust is, or the
> TREAD Lightly rules...
>
> I guess this fires me up because I had my own unpleasant encounter
> this weekend, the first of its kind that I have ever had. I was
> doing a Broken Arrow tour. I had just gotten to the trailhead,
when
> a group of mountain bikers came flying by us. One of the women
> shouted right into the Jeep as she flew by: "polluters!" I was
> stunned, and uncharacteristically speechless.
>
> First, I have never had any unpleasant brushes with the public
while
> in a yellow Jeep (Pink Jeeps, yes, but not regular people).
Second,
> my retrofitted 2002 Sahara produces less emissions that her
digestive
> system. Third, I doubt that she arrived in Sedona in a solar
powered
> car, or that her high-tech bike and clothing was produced in an
> emission-free factory. In fact, she probably drove a volkswagon
that
> smokes.
>
> In reflection, she probably just had an unpleasant interlude with a
> Pink Jeep on the trail, and I was there to receive HER
frustration.
>
> My point is, people seem very quick to judge and jump to
> conclusions. Everyone is very touchy about public land these days,
> and rightfully so...archeologists, bikers, and Jeepers, alike, are
> all worried about losing access to their beloved trails and lands.
>
> The challenge I want to put to the group is: How can we bring
mutual
> understanding to all of these different groups that we all want the
> same thing: to protect and enjoy our public lands. We all are so
> busy fighting each other that we lose sight of the fact that it is
> the policies of the Forest Service and BLM that we should be
worried
> about. I can't count how many Jeep trails have been shut down by
the
> Sedona Ranger District in the last two years. Meanwhile, they are
> building another golf course...
>
> I know that this is a little heavy for Monday morning, but...
>
> Happy trails!
>
> Nena
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Dan Coley" <crawlintj@y...> wrote:
> > Halfway through Lower Woodpecker (at the first major crack) today
> > there are about a dozen people with clipboards climbing around
the
> > canyon walls, doing mappings of the paintings on the rocks.
> Needless
> > to say I got a bit of lip from them about us "driving on the
> > paintings" and them wanting to get them mapped before the area is
> > closed because of four wheelers.
> >
> > The fact that there was quite a bit of oil on the rocks (for
quite
> a
> > few yards) from someone that "lost their oil pan" (according to
one
> > of them) and didn't clean up their mess really didn't help
either.
> I
> > personally picked up some trash off the trail though (although I
> tend
> > to do that anyways).
> >
> > I tried to explain that a majority of us are responsible
wheelers,
> do
> > not destroy vegetation, and are not out to ruin the land.
Somehow
> I
> > got the impression that they think our jeep bodies are stronger
> than
> > the rocks we rub against, and are destroying them.
> >
> > I'm not saying either party was right, we both have the legal
right
> > to be where we were, it's just that they hiked up to where they
> > where, and witnessed what could be perceived as us "damaging" the
> > land, in their eyes.
> >
> > Now I didn't start an argument, but the truth is they were
actually
> > climbing and walking around on the rocks and walls, actually
where
> > there was existing vegetation....
> >
> > However, I am thankful that they weren't out there on the Friday
> > night of the Jamboree to witness all the drunken idiots throwing
> > their beer cans all around.
> >
> > I've only been wheeling those trails regularly for a year or so
> now,
> > and have never seen them out there before.
> >
> > Dan
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
69702 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 8:13am
Subject: [FS] CJ Hardtop and full doors
Price: $600
Contact: 480-861-5106/ 480-373-8883
Black Hardtop, complete steel doors painted safety orange(painted on ouside-inside black &; tan).
Kurt Ehrenberg
69703 From: Chris <my1stjeep@e...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 8:35am
Subject: Re: Election
One very much at heart should be the choice for Gov., one of them is
VERY Green and one is not.
Chris
---------------------------------------------------------------------
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe-CJ7" <Joe-CJ7@j...> wrote:
> First thing - Get out there and VOTE
> All of the belly-aching we do at least you can do is vote to give
> yourself the privilege to belly-ache.
>
> Second - Does this affect us and what are some of our opinions?
> PROP. 101: state lands
> A yes vote will permit the exchange of state lands for other public
> lands if it is in the best interests of the state land trust, it
> conserves open space on trust lands, and appraisals show lands
received
> and projected income will equal or exceed that of the state lands.
> A no vote will not permit the change of state lands for other
public
> lands.
> Excerpts from the arguments for Prop. 101:
> The measure will give Arizonans an opportunity to preserve open
space
> and increase funding for education. Currently, there are no
safeguards
> to protect some of the most beautiful places in Arizona from being
> purchased by developers and turned into parking lots and shopping
malls.
> Prop. 101 will allow public-to-public land exchanges, so the state
can
> trade trust land for other public land of equal or greater value.
The
> measure provides many safeguards to ensure that any exchanges are
in
> Arizona's best interests. Public hearings would have to be held.
Money
> will go to public education.
> Excerpts from the arguments against Prop. 101:
> The measure does not ensure conservation of the land, and it does
not
> guarantee adequate public review and comment opportunities. Land
> exchanges should be subject to a full environmental impact
analysis and
> a full public review. Prop. 101 is harmful to broad-based efforts
to
> reform state trust land policy. The first thing that would happen
is
> that a land exchange developed by Gov. Jane Hull would be
implemented,
> making possible the development of 200,000 acres near the Grand
Canyon.
> Prop. 101 would not ensure conservation of that or other state
land and
> could lead to more unmanaged growth and sprawl.
>
> Thanks
>
> Joe Kearney
> Joe-CJ7@J...
69704 From: Scott Kruize <skruize@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 8:40am
Subject: RE: re: onboard air
I liked my 10# CO2 until I went to 37s. Now I need to fill it up after every 3rd run.
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: cowboy7575@aol.com [mailto:cowboy7575@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 10:27 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] re: onboard air
One of the guys on the 10-21 Broken Arrow run (I think his name was John, he drove a red YJ) had a nice set up using a Co2 Tank. Other than the cost of the tank and fittings, it costs $5 to fill it up each time and holds more than enough air to fill 4 tires.......seems to me that this is not only a more economical set up but easier to install (yeah, strap the bottle to your roll bar or rack). He said that he has been running with it for a while and loves it.
Mike
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
69705 From: Mike Chatfield <Mike@A...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 8:43am
Subject: FW: jeeps
Came to the website&
- Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Morenojeepj@aol.com [mailto:Morenojeepj@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 4:41 PM
To: Webmaster@AzVJC.org
Subject: jeeps
Hi, I wanted to shoot this to you I hope you don't mind. If you would like to post it for your members I will offer them an additional 5% off. (already wholesale, so I can't go too much further). But I will treat them professionally and with respect I promise you that. If you would like to do any link exchanges or referral programs of any sort I would love it. My prices are at bare minimums so I do have to really network and work off referrals and earning respect and trust from our jeep community.
www.jeepjunkies.com.
It is still under construction, however you can email for parts. We try and carry any,
and every part and accessory for your off road vehicle at wholesale prices.
Feel free to check us out, bookmark us, and check back periodically
as we get the sight up and running.
I am trying my best to make it the best online off road vehicle parts sight around.
Please post a message with anything you would like to see or your comments.
Sincerely,
Marc
69706 From: Leonard Garcia <leonardg@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 9:05am
Subject: Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
Does an AzxVJC decal qualify as a petroglyph?
--- In az_vjc@y..., "DesertJeep" <joey@d...> wrote:
>
> One mans Petroglyphs is another mans graffiti.
>
> So if I scratch some figures and stuff on some rocks you think in
800
> years or so it will become a protected area? Wouldn't that be a
terrible
> prank to play on your great great great great great great grand
> children!?
>
> My suggestion is to move any of the "petroglyphs" to a more secure
area.
> It's just a matter of time before the elements get to them if not
> vandals.
>
> Joey K
> 93YJ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: flatfenderman2000 [mailto:cnd4ever@g...]
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 6:41 PM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
>
>
> I have to wonder how all the petroglyphs in the area have managed
to
> survive for the last 800 yeas with out the intervention of groups
> like those encountered on LWP. Oh my GOD, what if it rains and that
> canyon turns into a raging river? All the evidence against you
nasty
> poluting rock crawlers will be washed away!
>
> I'll I can say is pray for rain folks, but it may already be too
late.
>
> Chris L.
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "BradP Kilgore" <brad.kilgore@p...> wrote:
> > Actually the Archeologists were of the senior variety as opposed
to
> > students and a little hypocritical. They were pleasant for the
most
> > part, but one moment were telling us were should not drive on the
> rocks
> > and the next second were gathered around, running across the rocks
> and
> > vegetation to take pictures of the jeeps climbing. Everybody
should
> > clean up after themselves, but we shouldn't all be punished for
the
> > failings of a few. Unfortunately, there will always be those who
> don't
> > care, and have no concern for anyone but themselves. All we can
do
> is
> > set the best example we can, do things the right way, pickup up
> after
> > ourselves and always tread lightly. Hopefully, someday these
groups
> > will come to realize we are not the enemy.
> >
> > My two cents.
> >
> > Brad
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sedonacowgirl [mailto:cowgirl@s...]
> > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 8:28 AM
> > To: az_vjc@y...
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
> >
> >
> > Howdy! Nothing like being falsely accused to ruin an otherwise
> > lovely day, huh? Probably once, that archeologist saw one Jeeper
> do
> > something dumb, if they ever saw anything at all. Just like
> > everything else, sometimes it is just one idiot in a group who
> ruins
> > it for everyone.
> >
> > What aggravates me is what you saw: they were tramping all over
> the
> > rocks and vegetation, but looking down their noses at you. I am
> > willing to bet that those were student archeologists, full of
self-
> > righteousness. It sounds like they were the uninformed
hypocrits.
> > Next time ask them if they know what microbiotic crust is, or the
> > TREAD Lightly rules...
> >
> > I guess this fires me up because I had my own unpleasant encounter
> > this weekend, the first of its kind that I have ever had. I was
> > doing a Broken Arrow tour. I had just gotten to the trailhead,
> when
> > a group of mountain bikers came flying by us. One of the women
> > shouted right into the Jeep as she flew by: "polluters!" I was
> > stunned, and uncharacteristically speechless.
> >
> > First, I have never had any unpleasant brushes with the public
> while
> > in a yellow Jeep (Pink Jeeps, yes, but not regular people).
> Second,
> > my retrofitted 2002 Sahara produces less emissions that her
> digestive
> > system. Third, I doubt that she arrived in Sedona in a solar
> powered
> > car, or that her high-tech bike and clothing was produced in an
> > emission-free factory. In fact, she probably drove a volkswagon
> that
> > smokes.
> >
> > In reflection, she probably just had an unpleasant interlude with
a
> > Pink Jeep on the trail, and I was there to receive HER
> frustration.
> >
> > My point is, people seem very quick to judge and jump to
> > conclusions. Everyone is very touchy about public land these
days,
> > and rightfully so...archeologists, bikers, and Jeepers, alike,
are
> > all worried about losing access to their beloved trails and
lands.
> >
> > The challenge I want to put to the group is: How can we bring
> mutual
> > understanding to all of these different groups that we all want
the
> > same thing: to protect and enjoy our public lands. We all are so
> > busy fighting each other that we lose sight of the fact that it
is
> > the policies of the Forest Service and BLM that we should be
> worried
> > about. I can't count how many Jeep trails have been shut down by
> the
> > Sedona Ranger District in the last two years. Meanwhile, they are
> > building another golf course...
> >
> > I know that this is a little heavy for Monday morning, but...
> >
> > Happy trails!
> >
> > Nena
> >
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Dan Coley" <crawlintj@y...> wrote:
> > > Halfway through Lower Woodpecker (at the first major crack)
today
> > > there are about a dozen people with clipboards climbing around
> the
> > > canyon walls, doing mappings of the paintings on the rocks.
> > Needless
> > > to say I got a bit of lip from them about us "driving on the
> > > paintings" and them wanting to get them mapped before the area
is
> > > closed because of four wheelers.
> > >
> > > The fact that there was quite a bit of oil on the rocks (for
> quite
> > a
> > > few yards) from someone that "lost their oil pan" (according to
> one
> > > of them) and didn't clean up their mess really didn't help
> either.
> > I
> > > personally picked up some trash off the trail though (although I
> > tend
> > > to do that anyways).
> > >
> > > I tried to explain that a majority of us are responsible
> wheelers,
> > do
> > > not destroy vegetation, and are not out to ruin the land.
> Somehow
> > I
> > > got the impression that they think our jeep bodies are stronger
> > than
> > > the rocks we rub against, and are destroying them.
> > >
> > > I'm not saying either party was right, we both have the legal
> right
> > > to be where we were, it's just that they hiked up to where they
> > > where, and witnessed what could be perceived as us "damaging"
the
> > > land, in their eyes.
> > >
> > > Now I didn't start an argument, but the truth is they were
> actually
> > > climbing and walking around on the rocks and walls, actually
> where
> > > there was existing vegetation....
> > >
> > > However, I am thankful that they weren't out there on the Friday
> > > night of the Jamboree to witness all the drunken idiots
throwing
> > > their beer cans all around.
> > >
> > > I've only been wheeling those trails regularly for a year or so
> > now,
> > > and have never seen them out there before.
> > >
> > > Dan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
69707 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 9:15am
Subject: [FS] WTB
Price: ??
Contact: Mike Baney (jeepin_in_az@yahoo.com
I am looking for a Hawes or Fairlead for my winch. Let me know what ya got!!
Mike Baney
69708 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 9:15am
Subject: RE: Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
Decal...no. But if you're good at etching.... ;)
Joey K
93YJ
-----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Garcia [mailto:leonardg@a...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:05 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
Does an AzxVJC decal qualify as a petroglyph?
--- In az_vjc@y..., "DesertJeep" <joey@d...> wrote:
>
> One mans Petroglyphs is another mans graffiti.
>
> So if I scratch some figures and stuff on some rocks you think in
800
> years or so it will become a protected area? Wouldn't that be a
terrible
> prank to play on your great great great great great great grand
> children!?
>
> My suggestion is to move any of the "petroglyphs" to a more secure
area.
> It's just a matter of time before the elements get to them if not
> vandals.
>
> Joey K
> 93YJ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: flatfenderman2000 [mailto:cnd4ever@g...]
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 6:41 PM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
>
>
> I have to wonder how all the petroglyphs in the area have managed
to
> survive for the last 800 yeas with out the intervention of groups
> like those encountered on LWP. Oh my GOD, what if it rains and that
> canyon turns into a raging river? All the evidence against you
nasty
> poluting rock crawlers will be washed away!
>
> I'll I can say is pray for rain folks, but it may already be too
late.
>
> Chris L.
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "BradP Kilgore" <brad.kilgore@p...> wrote:
> > Actually the Archeologists were of the senior variety as opposed
to
> > students and a little hypocritical. They were pleasant for the
most
> > part, but one moment were telling us were should not drive on the
> rocks
> > and the next second were gathered around, running across the rocks
> and
> > vegetation to take pictures of the jeeps climbing. Everybody
should
> > clean up after themselves, but we shouldn't all be punished for
the
> > failings of a few. Unfortunately, there will always be those who
> don't
> > care, and have no concern for anyone but themselves. All we can
do
> is
> > set the best example we can, do things the right way, pickup up
> after
> > ourselves and always tread lightly. Hopefully, someday these
groups
> > will come to realize we are not the enemy.
> >
> > My two cents.
> >
> > Brad
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sedonacowgirl [mailto:cowgirl@s...]
> > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 8:28 AM
> > To: az_vjc@y...
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
> >
> >
> > Howdy! Nothing like being falsely accused to ruin an otherwise
> > lovely day, huh? Probably once, that archeologist saw one Jeeper
> do
> > something dumb, if they ever saw anything at all. Just like
> > everything else, sometimes it is just one idiot in a group who
> ruins
> > it for everyone.
> >
> > What aggravates me is what you saw: they were tramping all over
> the
> > rocks and vegetation, but looking down their noses at you. I am
> > willing to bet that those were student archeologists, full of
self-
> > righteousness. It sounds like they were the uninformed
hypocrits.
> > Next time ask them if they know what microbiotic crust is, or the
> > TREAD Lightly rules...
> >
> > I guess this fires me up because I had my own unpleasant encounter
> > this weekend, the first of its kind that I have ever had. I was
> > doing a Broken Arrow tour. I had just gotten to the trailhead,
> when
> > a group of mountain bikers came flying by us. One of the women
> > shouted right into the Jeep as she flew by: "polluters!" I was
> > stunned, and uncharacteristically speechless.
> >
> > First, I have never had any unpleasant brushes with the public
> while
> > in a yellow Jeep (Pink Jeeps, yes, but not regular people).
> Second,
> > my retrofitted 2002 Sahara produces less emissions that her
> digestive
> > system. Third, I doubt that she arrived in Sedona in a solar
> powered
> > car, or that her high-tech bike and clothing was produced in an
> > emission-free factory. In fact, she probably drove a volkswagon
> that
> > smokes.
> >
> > In reflection, she probably just had an unpleasant interlude with
a
> > Pink Jeep on the trail, and I was there to receive HER
> frustration.
> >
> > My point is, people seem very quick to judge and jump to
> > conclusions. Everyone is very touchy about public land these
days,
> > and rightfully so...archeologists, bikers, and Jeepers, alike,
are
> > all worried about losing access to their beloved trails and
lands.
> >
> > The challenge I want to put to the group is: How can we bring
> mutual
> > understanding to all of these different groups that we all want
the
> > same thing: to protect and enjoy our public lands. We all are so
> > busy fighting each other that we lose sight of the fact that it
is
> > the policies of the Forest Service and BLM that we should be
> worried
> > about. I can't count how many Jeep trails have been shut down by
> the
> > Sedona Ranger District in the last two years. Meanwhile, they are
> > building another golf course...
> >
> > I know that this is a little heavy for Monday morning, but...
> >
> > Happy trails!
> >
> > Nena
> >
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Dan Coley" <crawlintj@y...> wrote:
> > > Halfway through Lower Woodpecker (at the first major crack)
today
> > > there are about a dozen people with clipboards climbing around
> the
> > > canyon walls, doing mappings of the paintings on the rocks.
> > Needless
> > > to say I got a bit of lip from them about us "driving on the
> > > paintings" and them wanting to get them mapped before the area
is
> > > closed because of four wheelers.
> > >
> > > The fact that there was quite a bit of oil on the rocks (for
> quite
> > a
> > > few yards) from someone that "lost their oil pan" (according to
> one
> > > of them) and didn't clean up their mess really didn't help
> either.
> > I
> > > personally picked up some trash off the trail though (although I
> > tend
> > > to do that anyways).
> > >
> > > I tried to explain that a majority of us are responsible
> wheelers,
> > do
> > > not destroy vegetation, and are not out to ruin the land.
> Somehow
> > I
> > > got the impression that they think our jeep bodies are stronger
> > than
> > > the rocks we rub against, and are destroying them.
> > >
> > > I'm not saying either party was right, we both have the legal
> right
> > > to be where we were, it's just that they hiked up to where they
> > > where, and witnessed what could be perceived as us "damaging"
the
> > > land, in their eyes.
> > >
> > > Now I didn't start an argument, but the truth is they were
> actually
> > > climbing and walking around on the rocks and walls, actually
> where
> > > there was existing vegetation....
> > >
> > > However, I am thankful that they weren't out there on the Friday
> > > night of the Jamboree to witness all the drunken idiots
throwing
> > > their beer cans all around.
> > >
> > > I've only been wheeling those trails regularly for a year or so
> > now,
> > > and have never seen them out there before.
> > >
> > > Dan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
69709 From: Trujillo, Jeff <jeff.trujillo@m...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 9:15am
Subject: RE: Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
I got some finger paints. We can paint some pretty horses and stick figures.
Jeffrey A. Trujillo
Field Service Representative
MD Helicopters, Inc.
jeff.trujillo@m...
Voice:(480)346-6249
Fax:(480)346-6813
-----Original Message-----
From: DesertJeep [mailto:joey@d...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:15 AM
To: 'Leonard Garcia'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
Decal...no. But if you're good at etching.... ;)
Joey K
93YJ
-----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Garcia [mailto:leonardg@a...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:05 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
Does an AzxVJC decal qualify as a petroglyph?
--- In az_vjc@y..., "DesertJeep" <joey@d...> wrote:
>
> One mans Petroglyphs is another mans graffiti.
>
> So if I scratch some figures and stuff on some rocks you think in
800
> years or so it will become a protected area? Wouldn't that be a
terrible
> prank to play on your great great great great great great grand
> children!?
>
> My suggestion is to move any of the "petroglyphs" to a more secure
area.
> It's just a matter of time before the elements get to them if not
> vandals.
>
> Joey K
> 93YJ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: flatfenderman2000 [mailto:cnd4ever@g...]
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 6:41 PM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
>
>
> I have to wonder how all the petroglyphs in the area have managed
to
> survive for the last 800 yeas with out the intervention of groups
> like those encountered on LWP. Oh my GOD, what if it rains and that
> canyon turns into a raging river? All the evidence against you
nasty
> poluting rock crawlers will be washed away!
>
> I'll I can say is pray for rain folks, but it may already be too
late.
>
> Chris L.
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "BradP Kilgore" <brad.kilgore@p...> wrote:
> > Actually the Archeologists were of the senior variety as opposed
to
> > students and a little hypocritical. They were pleasant for the
most
> > part, but one moment were telling us were should not drive on the
> rocks
> > and the next second were gathered around, running across the rocks
> and
> > vegetation to take pictures of the jeeps climbing. Everybody
should
> > clean up after themselves, but we shouldn't all be punished for
the
> > failings of a few. Unfortunately, there will always be those who
> don't
> > care, and have no concern for anyone but themselves. All we can
do
> is
> > set the best example we can, do things the right way, pickup up
> after
> > ourselves and always tread lightly. Hopefully, someday these
groups
> > will come to realize we are not the enemy.
> >
> > My two cents.
> >
> > Brad
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sedonacowgirl [mailto:cowgirl@s...]
> > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 8:28 AM
> > To: az_vjc@y...
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
> >
> >
> > Howdy! Nothing like being falsely accused to ruin an otherwise
> > lovely day, huh? Probably once, that archeologist saw one Jeeper
> do
> > something dumb, if they ever saw anything at all. Just like
> > everything else, sometimes it is just one idiot in a group who
> ruins
> > it for everyone.
> >
> > What aggravates me is what you saw: they were tramping all over
> the
> > rocks and vegetation, but looking down their noses at you. I am
> > willing to bet that those were student archeologists, full of
self-
> > righteousness. It sounds like they were the uninformed
hypocrits.
> > Next time ask them if they know what microbiotic crust is, or the
> > TREAD Lightly rules...
> >
> > I guess this fires me up because I had my own unpleasant encounter
> > this weekend, the first of its kind that I have ever had. I was
> > doing a Broken Arrow tour. I had just gotten to the trailhead,
> when
> > a group of mountain bikers came flying by us. One of the women
> > shouted right into the Jeep as she flew by: "polluters!" I was
> > stunned, and uncharacteristically speechless.
> >
> > First, I have never had any unpleasant brushes with the public
> while
> > in a yellow Jeep (Pink Jeeps, yes, but not regular people).
> Second,
> > my retrofitted 2002 Sahara produces less emissions that her
> digestive
> > system. Third, I doubt that she arrived in Sedona in a solar
> powered
> > car, or that her high-tech bike and clothing was produced in an
> > emission-free factory. In fact, she probably drove a volkswagon
> that
> > smokes.
> >
> > In reflection, she probably just had an unpleasant interlude with
a
> > Pink Jeep on the trail, and I was there to receive HER
> frustration.
> >
> > My point is, people seem very quick to judge and jump to
> > conclusions. Everyone is very touchy about public land these
days,
> > and rightfully so...archeologists, bikers, and Jeepers, alike,
are
> > all worried about losing access to their beloved trails and
lands.
> >
> > The challenge I want to put to the group is: How can we bring
> mutual
> > understanding to all of these different groups that we all want
the
> > same thing: to protect and enjoy our public lands. We all are so
> > busy fighting each other that we lose sight of the fact that it
is
> > the policies of the Forest Service and BLM that we should be
> worried
> > about. I can't count how many Jeep trails have been shut down by
> the
> > Sedona Ranger District in the last two years. Meanwhile, they are
> > building another golf course...
> >
> > I know that this is a little heavy for Monday morning, but...
> >
> > Happy trails!
> >
> > Nena
> >
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Dan Coley" <crawlintj@y...> wrote:
> > > Halfway through Lower Woodpecker (at the first major crack)
today
> > > there are about a dozen people with clipboards climbing around
> the
> > > canyon walls, doing mappings of the paintings on the rocks.
> > Needless
> > > to say I got a bit of lip from them about us "driving on the
> > > paintings" and them wanting to get them mapped before the area
is
> > > closed because of four wheelers.
> > >
> > > The fact that there was quite a bit of oil on the rocks (for
> quite
> > a
> > > few yards) from someone that "lost their oil pan" (according to
> one
> > > of them) and didn't clean up their mess really didn't help
> either.
> > I
> > > personally picked up some trash off the trail though (although I
> > tend
> > > to do that anyways).
> > >
> > > I tried to explain that a majority of us are responsible
> wheelers,
> > do
> > > not destroy vegetation, and are not out to ruin the land.
> Somehow
> > I
> > > got the impression that they think our jeep bodies are stronger
> > than
> > > the rocks we rub against, and are destroying them.
> > >
> > > I'm not saying either party was right, we both have the legal
> right
> > > to be where we were, it's just that they hiked up to where they
> > > where, and witnessed what could be perceived as us "damaging"
the
> > > land, in their eyes.
> > >
> > > Now I didn't start an argument, but the truth is they were
> actually
> > > climbing and walking around on the rocks and walls, actually
> where
> > > there was existing vegetation....
> > >
> > > However, I am thankful that they weren't out there on the Friday
> > > night of the Jamboree to witness all the drunken idiots
throwing
> > > their beer cans all around.
> > >
> > > I've only been wheeling those trails regularly for a year or so
> > now,
> > > and have never seen them out there before.
> > >
> > > Dan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
entities other than the intended recipient or employees of
MD Helicopters, Inc. is prohibited. If you received this in error, please
contact the sender by email and delete the material from any computer..
69710 From: Kent Warner <KnetAZ@q...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 9:38am
Subject: Tech Workshop Suggestion: Newbee Welding 101
What do folks think about doing a Newbee Welding Workshop? I don't
know how many beginning welders we have in the group, but I know I am
looking at getting a Miller 135 so I can do my CJ (freakin cheap
channel frames...) rebuild, and would like to be able to make a
decent weld quickly.
How many people would like to learn and how many experienced welders
would like to pass on some sage advice?
69711 From: Trujillo, Jeff <jeff.trujillo@m...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 9:45am
Subject: RE: Tech Workshop Suggestion: Newbee Welding 101
I know how to weld but haven't done it in a while. So maybe a refreasher for
me would be good. Also, I could use some good "buddies" with a welder!! LOL
Jeffrey A. Trujillo
Field Service Representative
MD Helicopters, Inc.
jeff.trujillo@m...
Voice:(480)346-6249
Fax:(480)346-6813
-----Original Message-----
From: Kent Warner [mailto:KnetAZ@q...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:38 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Tech Workshop Suggestion: Newbee Welding 101
What do folks think about doing a Newbee Welding Workshop? I don't
know how many beginning welders we have in the group, but I know I am
looking at getting a Miller 135 so I can do my CJ (freakin cheap
channel frames...) rebuild, and would like to be able to make a
decent weld quickly.
How many people would like to learn and how many experienced welders
would like to pass on some sage advice?
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
entities other than the intended recipient or employees of
MD Helicopters, Inc. is prohibited. If you received this in error, please
contact the sender by email and delete the material from any computer..
69712 From: azredrocker <gotrox@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 9:59am
Subject: Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
What do you need finger paint for, there is enough paint on the rocks
from body rub. In a few hundred years they will be talking about how
the paint and oil stains got on the rocks then fly off in there
Virtual Hovercraft.
Welcome to the world of Earth Cookies, YOU WILL NEVER WIN THEM OVER!!!
Neal Han****,
ARC
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Trujillo, Jeff" <jeff.trujillo@m...> wrote:
> I got some finger paints. We can paint some pretty horses and stick
figures.
>
> Jeffrey A. Trujillo
> Field Service Representative
> MD Helicopters, Inc.
> jeff.trujillo@m...
> Voice:(480)346-6249
> Fax:(480)346-6813
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DesertJeep [mailto:joey@d...]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:15 AM
> To: 'Leonard Garcia'; az_vjc@y...
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
>
>
> Decal...no. But if you're good at etching.... ;)
> Joey K
> 93YJ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leonard Garcia [mailto:leonardg@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:05 AM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
>
>
> Does an AzxVJC decal qualify as a petroglyph?
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "DesertJeep" <joey@d...> wrote:
> >
> > One mans Petroglyphs is another mans graffiti.
> >
> > So if I scratch some figures and stuff on some rocks you think in
> 800
> > years or so it will become a protected area? Wouldn't that be a
> terrible
> > prank to play on your great great great great great great grand
> > children!?
> >
> > My suggestion is to move any of the "petroglyphs" to a more secure
> area.
> > It's just a matter of time before the elements get to them if not
> > vandals.
> >
> > Joey K
> > 93YJ
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: flatfenderman2000 [mailto:cnd4ever@g...]
> > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 6:41 PM
> > To: az_vjc@y...
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
> >
> >
> > I have to wonder how all the petroglyphs in the area have managed
> to
> > survive for the last 800 yeas with out the intervention of groups
> > like those encountered on LWP. Oh my GOD, what if it rains and
that
> > canyon turns into a raging river? All the evidence against you
> nasty
> > poluting rock crawlers will be washed away!
> >
> > I'll I can say is pray for rain folks, but it may already be too
> late.
> >
> > Chris L.
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "BradP Kilgore" <brad.kilgore@p...> wrote:
> > > Actually the Archeologists were of the senior variety as opposed
> to
> > > students and a little hypocritical. They were pleasant for the
> most
> > > part, but one moment were telling us were should not drive on
the
> > rocks
> > > and the next second were gathered around, running across the
rocks
> > and
> > > vegetation to take pictures of the jeeps climbing. Everybody
> should
> > > clean up after themselves, but we shouldn't all be punished for
> the
> > > failings of a few. Unfortunately, there will always be those
who
> > don't
> > > care, and have no concern for anyone but themselves. All we can
> do
> > is
> > > set the best example we can, do things the right way, pickup up
> > after
> > > ourselves and always tread lightly. Hopefully, someday these
> groups
> > > will come to realize we are not the enemy.
> > >
> > > My two cents.
> > >
> > > Brad
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: sedonacowgirl [mailto:cowgirl@s...]
> > > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 8:28 AM
> > > To: az_vjc@y...
> > > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
> > >
> > >
> > > Howdy! Nothing like being falsely accused to ruin an otherwise
> > > lovely day, huh? Probably once, that archeologist saw one
Jeeper
> > do
> > > something dumb, if they ever saw anything at all. Just like
> > > everything else, sometimes it is just one idiot in a group who
> > ruins
> > > it for everyone.
> > >
> > > What aggravates me is what you saw: they were tramping all over
> > the
> > > rocks and vegetation, but looking down their noses at you. I am
> > > willing to bet that those were student archeologists, full of
> self-
> > > righteousness. It sounds like they were the uninformed
> hypocrits.
> > > Next time ask them if they know what microbiotic crust is, or
the
> > > TREAD Lightly rules...
> > >
> > > I guess this fires me up because I had my own unpleasant
encounter
> > > this weekend, the first of its kind that I have ever had. I
was
> > > doing a Broken Arrow tour. I had just gotten to the trailhead,
> > when
> > > a group of mountain bikers came flying by us. One of the women
> > > shouted right into the Jeep as she flew by: "polluters!" I was
> > > stunned, and uncharacteristically speechless.
> > >
> > > First, I have never had any unpleasant brushes with the public
> > while
> > > in a yellow Jeep (Pink Jeeps, yes, but not regular people).
> > Second,
> > > my retrofitted 2002 Sahara produces less emissions that her
> > digestive
> > > system. Third, I doubt that she arrived in Sedona in a solar
> > powered
> > > car, or that her high-tech bike and clothing was produced in an
> > > emission-free factory. In fact, she probably drove a volkswagon
> > that
> > > smokes.
> > >
> > > In reflection, she probably just had an unpleasant interlude
with
> a
> > > Pink Jeep on the trail, and I was there to receive HER
> > frustration.
> > >
> > > My point is, people seem very quick to judge and jump to
> > > conclusions. Everyone is very touchy about public land these
> days,
> > > and rightfully so...archeologists, bikers, and Jeepers, alike,
> are
> > > all worried about losing access to their beloved trails and
> lands.
> > >
> > > The challenge I want to put to the group is: How can we bring
> > mutual
> > > understanding to all of these different groups that we all want
> the
> > > same thing: to protect and enjoy our public lands. We all are
so
> > > busy fighting each other that we lose sight of the fact that it
> is
> > > the policies of the Forest Service and BLM that we should be
> > worried
> > > about. I can't count how many Jeep trails have been shut down
by
> > the
> > > Sedona Ranger District in the last two years. Meanwhile, they
are
> > > building another golf course...
> > >
> > > I know that this is a little heavy for Monday morning, but...
> > >
> > > Happy trails!
> > >
> > > Nena
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Dan Coley" <crawlintj@y...> wrote:
> > > > Halfway through Lower Woodpecker (at the first major crack)
> today
> > > > there are about a dozen people with clipboards climbing around
> > the
> > > > canyon walls, doing mappings of the paintings on the rocks.
> > > Needless
> > > > to say I got a bit of lip from them about us "driving on the
> > > > paintings" and them wanting to get them mapped before the area
> is
> > > > closed because of four wheelers.
> > > >
> > > > The fact that there was quite a bit of oil on the rocks (for
> > quite
> > > a
> > > > few yards) from someone that "lost their oil pan" (according
to
> > one
> > > > of them) and didn't clean up their mess really didn't help
> > either.
> > > I
> > > > personally picked up some trash off the trail though
(although I
> > > tend
> > > > to do that anyways).
> > > >
> > > > I tried to explain that a majority of us are responsible
> > wheelers,
> > > do
> > > > not destroy vegetation, and are not out to ruin the land.
> > Somehow
> > > I
> > > > got the impression that they think our jeep bodies are
stronger
> > > than
> > > > the rocks we rub against, and are destroying them.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not saying either party was right, we both have the legal
> > right
> > > > to be where we were, it's just that they hiked up to where
they
> > > > where, and witnessed what could be perceived as us "damaging"
> the
> > > > land, in their eyes.
> > > >
> > > > Now I didn't start an argument, but the truth is they were
> > actually
> > > > climbing and walking around on the rocks and walls, actually
> > where
> > > > there was existing vegetation....
> > > >
> > > > However, I am thankful that they weren't out there on the
Friday
> > > > night of the Jamboree to witness all the drunken idiots
> throwing
> > > > their beer cans all around.
> > > >
> > > > I've only been wheeling those trails regularly for a year or
so
> > > now,
> > > > and have never seen them out there before.
> > > >
> > > > Dan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or
entity to
> which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or
privileged
> material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use
of, or
> taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons
or
> entities other than the intended recipient or employees of
> MD Helicopters, Inc. is prohibited. If you received this in
error, please
> contact the sender by email and delete the material from any
computer..
69713 From: Bill - Jeeps Only <bill@j...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 10:23am
Subject: Re: Tech Workshop Suggestion: Newbee Welding 101
I'd be very interested!
---------------
Bill Hooven
Jeeps Only
http://www.jeepsonly.com
A Yahoo-style directory of Jeep links
---------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Warner" <KnetAZ@q...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:38 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Tech Workshop Suggestion: Newbee Welding 101
> What do folks think about doing a Newbee Welding Workshop? I don't
> know how many beginning welders we have in the group, but I know I am
> looking at getting a Miller 135 so I can do my CJ (freakin cheap
> channel frames...) rebuild, and would like to be able to make a
> decent weld quickly.
>
> How many people would like to learn and how many experienced welders
> would like to pass on some sage advice?
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
69714 From: Rob Williams <g_rob_williams@y...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 10:19am
Subject: Re: Tech Workshop Suggestion: Newbee Welding 101
You just gotta remember... if it sounds like your frying bacon...
your doing pretty good! :) (thats the first thing I was told by my
dad when he showed me how to use his wire fed MIG) -Rob
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Kent Warner" <KnetAZ@q...> wrote:
> What do folks think about doing a Newbee Welding Workshop? I
don't
> know how many beginning welders we have in the group, but I know I
am
> looking at getting a Miller 135 so I can do my CJ (freakin cheap
> channel frames...) rebuild, and would like to be able to make a
> decent weld quickly.
>
> How many people would like to learn and how many experienced
welders
> would like to pass on some sage advice?
69715 From: Rob Williams <g_rob_williams@y...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 10:21am
Subject: SEMA 2002
Well have a good week/weekend... I am packing up and heading out to
SEMA tomorrow! -Rob
69716 From: Trujillo, Jeff <jeff.trujillo@m...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 10:09am
Subject: RE: Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
See, all the rock and tree huggers won't have anything to worry about in 10
years. We will all be hovering around in our Virtual Jeeps. So were already
ahead of the game. Are we all sure whoever came up with "Virtual Jeep Club"
really ain't part of the Sahara Club? LOL
Jeffrey A. Trujillo
Field Service Representative
MD Helicopters, Inc.
jeff.trujillo@m...
Voice:(480)346-6249
Fax:(480)346-6813
-----Original Message-----
From: azredrocker [mailto:gotrox@c...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 11:00 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
What do you need finger paint for, there is enough paint on the rocks
from body rub. In a few hundred years they will be talking about how
the paint and oil stains got on the rocks then fly off in there
Virtual Hovercraft.
Welcome to the world of Earth Cookies, YOU WILL NEVER WIN THEM OVER!!!
Neal Han****,
ARC
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Trujillo, Jeff" <jeff.trujillo@m...> wrote:
> I got some finger paints. We can paint some pretty horses and stick
figures.
>
> Jeffrey A. Trujillo
> Field Service Representative
> MD Helicopters, Inc.
> jeff.trujillo@m...
> Voice:(480)346-6249
> Fax:(480)346-6813
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DesertJeep [mailto:joey@d...]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:15 AM
> To: 'Leonard Garcia'; az_vjc@y...
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
>
>
> Decal...no. But if you're good at etching.... ;)
> Joey K
> 93YJ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leonard Garcia [mailto:leonardg@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:05 AM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
>
>
> Does an AzxVJC decal qualify as a petroglyph?
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "DesertJeep" <joey@d...> wrote:
> >
> > One mans Petroglyphs is another mans graffiti.
> >
> > So if I scratch some figures and stuff on some rocks you think in
> 800
> > years or so it will become a protected area? Wouldn't that be a
> terrible
> > prank to play on your great great great great great great grand
> > children!?
> >
> > My suggestion is to move any of the "petroglyphs" to a more secure
> area.
> > It's just a matter of time before the elements get to them if not
> > vandals.
> >
> > Joey K
> > 93YJ
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: flatfenderman2000 [mailto:cnd4ever@g...]
> > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 6:41 PM
> > To: az_vjc@y...
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
> >
> >
> > I have to wonder how all the petroglyphs in the area have managed
> to
> > survive for the last 800 yeas with out the intervention of groups
> > like those encountered on LWP. Oh my GOD, what if it rains and
that
> > canyon turns into a raging river? All the evidence against you
> nasty
> > poluting rock crawlers will be washed away!
> >
> > I'll I can say is pray for rain folks, but it may already be too
> late.
> >
> > Chris L.
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "BradP Kilgore" <brad.kilgore@p...> wrote:
> > > Actually the Archeologists were of the senior variety as opposed
> to
> > > students and a little hypocritical. They were pleasant for the
> most
> > > part, but one moment were telling us were should not drive on
the
> > rocks
> > > and the next second were gathered around, running across the
rocks
> > and
> > > vegetation to take pictures of the jeeps climbing. Everybody
> should
> > > clean up after themselves, but we shouldn't all be punished for
> the
> > > failings of a few. Unfortunately, there will always be those
who
> > don't
> > > care, and have no concern for anyone but themselves. All we can
> do
> > is
> > > set the best example we can, do things the right way, pickup up
> > after
> > > ourselves and always tread lightly. Hopefully, someday these
> groups
> > > will come to realize we are not the enemy.
> > >
> > > My two cents.
> > >
> > > Brad
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: sedonacowgirl [mailto:cowgirl@s...]
> > > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 8:28 AM
> > > To: az_vjc@y...
> > > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
> > >
> > >
> > > Howdy! Nothing like being falsely accused to ruin an otherwise
> > > lovely day, huh? Probably once, that archeologist saw one
Jeeper
> > do
> > > something dumb, if they ever saw anything at all. Just like
> > > everything else, sometimes it is just one idiot in a group who
> > ruins
> > > it for everyone.
> > >
> > > What aggravates me is what you saw: they were tramping all over
> > the
> > > rocks and vegetation, but looking down their noses at you. I am
> > > willing to bet that those were student archeologists, full of
> self-
> > > righteousness. It sounds like they were the uninformed
> hypocrits.
> > > Next time ask them if they know what microbiotic crust is, or
the
> > > TREAD Lightly rules...
> > >
> > > I guess this fires me up because I had my own unpleasant
encounter
> > > this weekend, the first of its kind that I have ever had. I
was
> > > doing a Broken Arrow tour. I had just gotten to the trailhead,
> > when
> > > a group of mountain bikers came flying by us. One of the women
> > > shouted right into the Jeep as she flew by: "polluters!" I was
> > > stunned, and uncharacteristically speechless.
> > >
> > > First, I have never had any unpleasant brushes with the public
> > while
> > > in a yellow Jeep (Pink Jeeps, yes, but not regular people).
> > Second,
> > > my retrofitted 2002 Sahara produces less emissions that her
> > digestive
> > > system. Third, I doubt that she arrived in Sedona in a solar
> > powered
> > > car, or that her high-tech bike and clothing was produced in an
> > > emission-free factory. In fact, she probably drove a volkswagon
> > that
> > > smokes.
> > >
> > > In reflection, she probably just had an unpleasant interlude
with
> a
> > > Pink Jeep on the trail, and I was there to receive HER
> > frustration.
> > >
> > > My point is, people seem very quick to judge and jump to
> > > conclusions. Everyone is very touchy about public land these
> days,
> > > and rightfully so...archeologists, bikers, and Jeepers, alike,
> are
> > > all worried about losing access to their beloved trails and
> lands.
> > >
> > > The challenge I want to put to the group is: How can we bring
> > mutual
> > > understanding to all of these different groups that we all want
> the
> > > same thing: to protect and enjoy our public lands. We all are
so
> > > busy fighting each other that we lose sight of the fact that it
> is
> > > the policies of the Forest Service and BLM that we should be
> > worried
> > > about. I can't count how many Jeep trails have been shut down
by
> > the
> > > Sedona Ranger District in the last two years. Meanwhile, they
are
> > > building another golf course...
> > >
> > > I know that this is a little heavy for Monday morning, but...
> > >
> > > Happy trails!
> > >
> > > Nena
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Dan Coley" <crawlintj@y...> wrote:
> > > > Halfway through Lower Woodpecker (at the first major crack)
> today
> > > > there are about a dozen people with clipboards climbing around
> > the
> > > > canyon walls, doing mappings of the paintings on the rocks.
> > > Needless
> > > > to say I got a bit of lip from them about us "driving on the
> > > > paintings" and them wanting to get them mapped before the area
> is
> > > > closed because of four wheelers.
> > > >
> > > > The fact that there was quite a bit of oil on the rocks (for
> > quite
> > > a
> > > > few yards) from someone that "lost their oil pan" (according
to
> > one
> > > > of them) and didn't clean up their mess really didn't help
> > either.
> > > I
> > > > personally picked up some trash off the trail though
(although I
> > > tend
> > > > to do that anyways).
> > > >
> > > > I tried to explain that a majority of us are responsible
> > wheelers,
> > > do
> > > > not destroy vegetation, and are not out to ruin the land.
> > Somehow
> > > I
> > > > got the impression that they think our jeep bodies are
stronger
> > > than
> > > > the rocks we rub against, and are destroying them.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not saying either party was right, we both have the legal
> > right
> > > > to be where we were, it's just that they hiked up to where
they
> > > > where, and witnessed what could be perceived as us "damaging"
> the
> > > > land, in their eyes.
> > > >
> > > > Now I didn't start an argument, but the truth is they were
> > actually
> > > > climbing and walking around on the rocks and walls, actually
> > where
> > > > there was existing vegetation....
> > > >
> > > > However, I am thankful that they weren't out there on the
Friday
> > > > night of the Jamboree to witness all the drunken idiots
> throwing
> > > > their beer cans all around.
> > > >
> > > > I've only been wheeling those trails regularly for a year or
so
> > > now,
> > > > and have never seen them out there before.
> > > >
> > > > Dan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or
entity to
> which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or
privileged
> material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use
of, or
> taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons
or
> entities other than the intended recipient or employees of
> MD Helicopters, Inc. is prohibited. If you received this in
error, please
> contact the sender by email and delete the material from any
computer..
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
entities other than the intended recipient or employees of
MD Helicopters, Inc. is prohibited. If you received this in error, please
contact the sender by email and delete the material from any computer..
69717 From: <cowboy7575@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 5:27am
Subject: RE: Garmin GPS Topo Maps
Well here is what I did. I originally bought a nice Magellen GPS unit but I now run a laptop with Delorme Topo USA. Not only does the laptop have a bigger screen and nice color, but the GPS works great. I would never go back to a small GPS/Map again. I use it mostly in my XJ, ZJ and MJ but have mounted it in my YJ too. You can easily mount it low or up and out of the way. It doesnt seem to get in my way.........well not much but you get used to it. I bought a used Dell P233 on Ebay for less than $200, a car power adaptor for $40 on Ebay, the software was $89 and Staples and I bought the Rand McNally GPS receiver on Ebay for $55. Oh I forgot, I also bought a nice laptop mount/stand for my Jeep called a Jotto Desk I think, that wasnt cheap, over $100 on Ebay but I am sure an enterprising person could fab something. Considering the price a a good handheld unit and its limitations (well you can carry it with you, something you cant with the laptop, ok it does have at least one advantage), the set up I have is not that much more and in some cases less and much more practical when driving.........I dont get lost anymore.....even in a city :-)
Mike
69718 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 10:28am
Subject: [FS] Hi Lift, CB, Tires, K&N, FSM, Chiltons
Price:
Contact: kmichael02@yahoo.com, 480 967 9792
Hi Lift---used good shape $35
cb(maxon) ant. 4ftfiber, cable, all wiring mounting
hardware. wire proper lenght for yj tj, will work on rack of xj/wj/zj 50$
k&n; air filter good shape no problems 92-95 yj
30 9.50-15 futura mud tires, good condition 75$
Factory service manual on cd, for computer. acrobat reader 20 yj xj only
chiltons 74-95 wrangler 10
email for questions
kmichael02@yahoo.com
call anytime weekends especially 480 967 9792
Michaelk
69719 From: azredrocker <gotrox@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 11:10am
Subject: Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
A few years ago I was wheeling in Martinez when Dave Elliot broke a
drive shaft. About halfway through the repair some tree huggers came
up the trail hiking to Silverbell Mine. They had choice words for use
being broke on the trail they where hiking. In fact they told use we
had no business on the trail and that we were ruining the habitat of
the canyon. Of course being someone who likes his foot in his mouth,
I let the beosh know how I felt about her opinion. When we finally
got back to the Cabins, there vehicle was still parked there. What do
you think her bumper had on it.
"Sierra Club"
"DIE EARTHCOOKIES DIE"
Just my .02
Neal Han****
ARC
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Trujillo, Jeff" <jeff.trujillo@m...> wrote:
> See, all the rock and tree huggers won't have anything to worry
about in 10
> years. We will all be hovering around in our Virtual Jeeps. So were
already
> ahead of the game. Are we all sure whoever came up with "Virtual
Jeep Club"
> really ain't part of the Sahara Club? LOL
>
> Jeffrey A. Trujillo
> Field Service Representative
> MD Helicopters, Inc.
> jeff.trujillo@m...
> Voice:(480)346-6249
> Fax:(480)346-6813
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: azredrocker [mailto:gotrox@c...]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 11:00 AM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
>
>
> What do you need finger paint for, there is enough paint on the
rocks
> from body rub. In a few hundred years they will be talking about
how
> the paint and oil stains got on the rocks then fly off in there
> Virtual Hovercraft.
>
> Welcome to the world of Earth Cookies, YOU WILL NEVER WIN THEM
OVER!!!
>
>
> Neal Han****,
> ARC
>
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Trujillo, Jeff" <jeff.trujillo@m...> wrote:
> > I got some finger paints. We can paint some pretty horses and
stick
> figures.
> >
> > Jeffrey A. Trujillo
> > Field Service Representative
> > MD Helicopters, Inc.
> > jeff.trujillo@m...
> > Voice:(480)346-6249
> > Fax:(480)346-6813
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DesertJeep [mailto:joey@d...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:15 AM
> > To: 'Leonard Garcia'; az_vjc@y...
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
> >
> >
> > Decal...no. But if you're good at etching.... ;)
> > Joey K
> > 93YJ
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Leonard Garcia [mailto:leonardg@a...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:05 AM
> > To: az_vjc@y...
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
> >
> >
> > Does an AzxVJC decal qualify as a petroglyph?
> >
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "DesertJeep" <joey@d...> wrote:
> > >
> > > One mans Petroglyphs is another mans graffiti.
> > >
> > > So if I scratch some figures and stuff on some rocks you think
in
> > 800
> > > years or so it will become a protected area? Wouldn't that be a
> > terrible
> > > prank to play on your great great great great great great grand
> > > children!?
> > >
> > > My suggestion is to move any of the "petroglyphs" to a more
secure
> > area.
> > > It's just a matter of time before the elements get to them if
not
> > > vandals.
> > >
> > > Joey K
> > > 93YJ
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: flatfenderman2000 [mailto:cnd4ever@g...]
> > > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 6:41 PM
> > > To: az_vjc@y...
> > > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
> > >
> > >
> > > I have to wonder how all the petroglyphs in the area have
managed
> > to
> > > survive for the last 800 yeas with out the intervention of
groups
> > > like those encountered on LWP. Oh my GOD, what if it rains and
> that
> > > canyon turns into a raging river? All the evidence against you
> > nasty
> > > poluting rock crawlers will be washed away!
> > >
> > > I'll I can say is pray for rain folks, but it may already be too
> > late.
> > >
> > > Chris L.
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@y..., "BradP Kilgore" <brad.kilgore@p...> wrote:
> > > > Actually the Archeologists were of the senior variety as
opposed
> > to
> > > > students and a little hypocritical. They were pleasant for
the
> > most
> > > > part, but one moment were telling us were should not drive on
> the
> > > rocks
> > > > and the next second were gathered around, running across the
> rocks
> > > and
> > > > vegetation to take pictures of the jeeps climbing. Everybody
> > should
> > > > clean up after themselves, but we shouldn't all be punished
for
> > the
> > > > failings of a few. Unfortunately, there will always be those
> who
> > > don't
> > > > care, and have no concern for anyone but themselves. All we
can
> > do
> > > is
> > > > set the best example we can, do things the right way, pickup
up
> > > after
> > > > ourselves and always tread lightly. Hopefully, someday these
> > groups
> > > > will come to realize we are not the enemy.
> > > >
> > > > My two cents.
> > > >
> > > > Brad
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: sedonacowgirl [mailto:cowgirl@s...]
> > > > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 8:28 AM
> > > > To: az_vjc@y...
> > > > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Archeologists On Lower Woodpecker
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Howdy! Nothing like being falsely accused to ruin an
otherwise
> > > > lovely day, huh? Probably once, that archeologist saw one
> Jeeper
> > > do
> > > > something dumb, if they ever saw anything at all. Just like
> > > > everything else, sometimes it is just one idiot in a group who
> > > ruins
> > > > it for everyone.
> > > >
> > > > What aggravates me is what you saw: they were tramping all
over
> > > the
> > > > rocks and vegetation, but looking down their noses at you. I
am
> > > > willing to bet that those were student archeologists, full of
> > self-
> > > > righteousness. It sounds like they were the uninformed
> > hypocrits.
> > > > Next time ask them if they know what microbiotic crust is, or
> the
> > > > TREAD Lightly rules...
> > > >
> > > > I guess this fires me up because I had my own unpleasant
> encounter
> > > > this weekend, the first of its kind that I have ever had. I
> was
> > > > doing a Broken Arrow tour. I had just gotten to the
trailhead,
> > > when
> > > > a group of mountain bikers came flying by us. One of the
women
> > > > shouted right into the Jeep as she flew by: "polluters!" I
was
> > > > stunned, and uncharacteristically speechless.
> > > >
> > > > First, I have never had any unpleasant brushes with the public
> > > while
> > > > in a yellow Jeep (Pink Jeeps, yes, but not regular people).
> > > Second,
> > > > my retrofitted 2002 Sahara produces less emissions that her
> > > digestive
> > > > system. Third, I doubt that she arrived in Sedona in a solar
> > > powered
> > > > car, or that her high-tech bike and clothing was produced in
an
> > > > emission-free factory. In fact, she probably drove a
volkswagon
> > > that
> > > > smokes.
> > > >
> > > > In reflection, she probably just had an unpleasant interlude
> with
> > a
> > > > Pink Jeep on the trail, and I was there to receive HER
> > > frustration.
> > > >
> > > > My point is, people seem very quick to judge and jump to
> > > > conclusions. Everyone is very touchy about public land these
> > days,
> > > > and rightfully so...archeologists, bikers, and Jeepers, alike,
> > are
> > > > all worried about losing access to their beloved trails and
> > lands.
> > > >
> > > > The challenge I want to put to the group is: How can we bring
> > > mutual
> > > > understanding to all of these different groups that we all
want
> > the
> > > > same thing: to protect and enjoy our public lands. We all
are
> so
> > > > busy fighting each other that we lose sight of the fact that
it
> > is
> > > > the policies of the Forest Service and BLM that we should be
> > > worried
> > > > about. I can't count how many Jeep trails have been shut
down
> by
> > > the
> > > > Sedona Ranger District in the last two years. Meanwhile, they
> are
> > > > building another golf course...
> > > >
> > > > I know that this is a little heavy for Monday morning, but...
> > > >
> > > > Happy trails!
> > > >
> > > > Nena
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Dan Coley" <crawlintj@y...> wrote:
> > > > > Halfway through Lower Woodpecker (at the first major crack)
> > today
> > > > > there are about a dozen people with clipboards climbing
around
> > > the
> > > > > canyon walls, doing mappings of the paintings on the rocks.
> > > > Needless
> > > > > to say I got a bit of lip from them about us "driving on
the
> > > > > paintings" and them wanting to get them mapped before the
area
> > is
> > > > > closed because of four wheelers.
> > > > >
> > > > > The fact that there was quite a bit of oil on the rocks (for
> > > quite
> > > > a
> > > > > few yards) from someone that "lost their oil pan"
(according
> to
> > > one
> > > > > of them) and didn't clean up their mess really didn't help
> > > either.
> > > > I
> > > > > personally picked up some trash off the trail though
> (although I
> > > > tend
> > > > > to do that anyways).
> > > > >
> > > > > I tried to explain that a majority of us are responsible
> > > wheelers,
> > > > do
> > > > > not destroy vegetation, and are not out to ruin the land.
> > > Somehow
> > > > I
> > > > > got the impression that they think our jeep bodies are
> stronger
> > > > than
> > > > > the rocks we rub against, and are destroying them.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not saying either party was right, we both have the
legal
> > > right
> > > > > to be where we were, it's just that they hiked up to where
> they
> > > > > where, and witnessed what could be perceived as
us "damaging"
> > the
> > > > > land, in their eyes.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now I didn't start an argument, but the truth is they were
> > > actually
> > > > > climbing and walking around on the rocks and walls, actually
> > > where
> > > > > there was existing vegetation....
> > > > >
> > > > > However, I am thankful that they weren't out there on the
> Friday
> > > > > night of the Jamboree to witness all the drunken idiots
> > throwing
> > > > > their beer cans all around.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've only been wheeling those trails regularly for a year
or
> so
> > > > now,
> > > > > and have never seen them out there before.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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69720 From: purple <purp8@c...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 11:28am
Subject: RE: SEMA 2002
Rob , My Dad and I are going to SEMA in the am also . Maybe we'll see you
there ( even though I don't know what you look like )....
Purple .
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Williams [mailto:g_rob_williams@y...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 11:21 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] SEMA 2002
Well have a good week/weekend... I am packing up and heading out to
SEMA tomorrow! -Rob
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69721 From: flyingmonkeydemon <hockeydawg@m...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 11:16am
Subject: New lift...wrenching party?
I just bought a new Rubicon Express lift for my TJ, now I need to put it on. I am
mechanicaly inclined, I have a garage, however what I don't have is a decent
set of tools. If anyone wants to donate some time and tools, I will supply beer,
pizza and whatever else is needed. I live in El Mirage but am willing to make
the trek across the valley if someone wants to volunteer over there. Let me
know. I work nights so weekends work best for me. TIA.
Mike Johnson
69722 From: pnwxjaaron <ridetimeless158@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 11:24am
Subject: Front locker problems
Hey all, i'm looking for someone to help me figure out whats wrong
with my front locker. On the tail end of 42 this last Sunday I got
myself lined up for a little rockcrawling when all of a sudden i'm 3
wheel drive instead of 4! needless to say I was a little peeved...
Powertrax told me to have it looked at and let them know what was
found to be wrong... however I am broke :( if anyone can help me out
it would be greatly appreciated!
69723 From: Trujillo, Jeff <jeff.trujillo@m...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 11:17am
Subject: RE: New lift...wrenching party?
I have a pretty good set of tools. I have air tools also but no air. I have
a really big area to work with, lights also (for the night wrenching). I
live at Mesa Drive and Southern. If you want to get a few people together, I
also have a pool table and darts for when it was done. Let me know.
Jeffrey A. Trujillo
Cell 480-213-1976
Home 480-649-5588
-----Original Message-----
From: flyingmonkeydemon [mailto:hockeydawg@m...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 12:17 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] New lift...wrenching party?
I just bought a new Rubicon Express lift for my TJ, now I need to put it on.
I am
mechanicaly inclined, I have a garage, however what I don't have is a
decent
set of tools. If anyone wants to donate some time and tools, I will supply
beer,
pizza and whatever else is needed. I live in El Mirage but am willing to
make
the trek across the valley if someone wants to volunteer over there. Let me
know. I work nights so weekends work best for me. TIA.
Mike Johnson
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material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
entities other than the intended recipient or employees of
MD Helicopters, Inc. is prohibited. If you received this in error, please
contact the sender by email and delete the material from any computer..
69724 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 11:31am
Subject: [TR] Trip Report - FR-42 - Sunday, November 3, 2002
Hello All,
Chris Benner lead a trail run Sunday, November 3, 2002 across FR-42
Well we had 19 signups with 15 definates. Then we had 28 people actually show up. wow.. Sorry the trail was very "stop n go ish" next time we'll HAVE to split the group up. All in All it was a fun trip. Got to push a couple of people without lockers, Steve about rolled it but Jim came to the rescue. I guess I should have posted that XJ's should expect fender damage, sorry rick. :) I think I can figure out the whole run on my own now. Plus Eric was able to get the gps cords mapped out. We'll have to do it again with a smaller group :) Lots of pictures are posted at http://www.thejeepfiles.com
Click Here to View Pictures (if available)
Thank You,
- The AzVJC Website
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