blooddrive
01-06-2004, 06:00 AM
68538-68562
68538 From: Joe West <joe.west@s...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 9:16am
Subject: RE: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
Steven,
Unfortunately, this situation isn't quite as black and white as your
email below might lead one to believe you think it is. Since we live in
a free society, the Sierra Club is completely free to come out and watch
us work.
If they choose to try and point out something that we may do wrong (such
as accidentally run over an endangered rock) during the cleanup, it will
be a relatively easy task to show where our hearts were at and that we
were indeed trying to do the right thing.
I suspect that the Sierra Club is smart enough to know that pointing
fingers at a group that is trying to do good things will result in their
ultimate demise. While there are radicals on both sides (your comments
below might lead one to believe that you are one of these) of the
issues, I believe them to be in the minority, and I am thankful that
they are.
It takes a wise person to understand that ultimately, those who's goals
are just will triumph. No matter what happens by bringing in the Sierra
Club (albeit perhaps only one or two members) and showing them how we
work together during the coves cleanup; the result will be positive.
It is easy for narrow minds on both sides of the issue to not trust the
other side. It is much more difficult to do the right thing always...
regardless of the potential consequences. In this case Steven, the
right thing is to clean up the coves and allow everyone who wants to
watch or participate, to do so. Consider this; even if we did not want
to include them, we cannot stop them. So why not invite them to
participate in the hopes that they will see how earnestly we are trying
to make amends for the ignorant slobs among our community who made the
mess at the coves in the first place?
I'll step down now... and allow you to comment if you wish. You stand
on a platform that is indefensible, and right next to you stand the
extremists from the other side. You fail to recognize that ultimately,
the plank you stand on will fail, and you will find yourself crumpled at
the bottom of a chasm with others of your kind while the rest of us
standing together above find a solution which good for everyone.
I look forward to your comments.
Kind Regards,
Joe West
-----Original Message-----
From: scramzilla [mailto:steven.c.forrester@l...]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:52 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
I don't care if the tree huggers comes to the cleanup or not. I still
believe she is a Trojan Horse and you naive wheelers will probably
end up with SC crap on your face. Hey! If I'm wrong, I'm wrong! But I
would not trust one of those whacked out suck heads as far as I could
kick them!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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68539 From: Mitch Woodward <mitchwoodward@h...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 9:13am
Subject: Re: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
Well said, Jim. It's up to us to convert one sierra club member at a time.
If we kill them with kindness, and repeatedly show them that we are
responsible, eventually they might start to see things our way. I always
offer them a chance to ride along, get involved, observe us, etc.
Mitch
> >
> > "I'm taking my toys and going home." Would have been
> > a more direct
> > way of getting your point across.
> >
> > And I say to you:
> >
> > Good, take your toys and your close minded "I won't
> > even talk to the
> > enemy" and leave the clean-ups to the adults. Your
> > attitude will
> > only serve to hurt the sport in the end.
> >
> > Grow Up a Little,
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
> http://webhosting.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
68540 From: Daver <daver@c...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 9:16am
Subject: Re: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
At 03:52 PM 10/24/2002 +0000, you wrote:
>I think some of you guys are forgetting what goes on at the coves.
>There is a huge amount of drunken partying including trash dumping.
>Most likely while you guys are out on your little clean up, your new
>found SC buddy is going to see some drunk @ss hillbillies throwing
>out their beer cans and running over vegetation. She's going to get
>the impression (or strengthen one she's already formed) that most
>wheelers act that way. Yes, she'll probably think that the AZVJCr's
>(or at least some of them) are responsible, but that most wheelers
>are like the coves' patrons. Face it, the vast majority of the
>people that hang out at the coves don't shed the best light on our
>sport.
Yeah, well. They can go out and see that anytime. Here is an opportunity
for them to see the "other" side of things 4WD. In my opinion there is
really no point in trying to _hide_ things - they'll find out anyhow. Just
throw things out there how they are, and go from there. If they Sierra Club
finds out that _all_ wheelers aren't drunken hillbilly littering fools,
then cool. If they don't, then nothing has really changed. Sure, they may
try to turn things against us, but I don't think the answer is to do things
in secrecy as if we are doing something wrong. Open and honest, we can make
that a trait that distinguishes _us_ from _them_. No backdoor politics here.
68541 From: Daver <daver@c...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 9:18am
Subject: Re: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
Are you reading for comprehension?
At 09:03 AM 10/24/2002 -0700, jimmy lambertus wrote:
>Are you a member of the Sierra Club ?
> Jim Lambertus
>--- wheelenx2 <wheelenx2@y...> wrote:
> > > I am not going to Parker Splash this year and had
> > planned to go out
> > > with the VJC to do the Cove clean up. But not now.
> > I'll do it
> > > somewhere else with others that feel the same way.
> >
> > "I'm taking my toys and going home." Would have been
> > a more direct
> > way of getting your point across.
> >
> > And I say to you:
> >
> > Good, take your toys and your close minded "I won't
> > even talk to the
> > enemy" and leave the clean-ups to the adults. Your
> > attitude will
> > only serve to hurt the sport in the end.
> >
> > Grow Up a Little,
> >
> > Jim
68542 From: Trujillo, Jeff <jeff.trujillo@m...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 9:22am
Subject: RE: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
Can't we all just get along? Sorry, had to say that. I just got into the
email group and I have to tell you, I have never received so much email in a
1 minute period. I've been to the cove's quite a few times and it looks like
crap. I am ashamed and afraid to take my kids there because of this. That is
why I will be there cleaning up. If we don't do it, who will? I'm not going
to impress some other club (sierra club-never heard of till now). I am going
so I can take my kids and enjoy the lake. Everytime I go I end up taking out
other peoples trash. And it's my finding that it's not coming from jeepers.
Everyone I run into is like me. Leave it cleaner than you found it. Yes, i'm
a (hick, hillbilly, country ****) but it's us country folk that are more in
tune to keep **** clean. (If you can keep **** clean-never tried it) LOL. So
I will be there to clean and there is someone there laying in the road or
hugging a tree oh well. At least my kids will be able to enjoy the lake and
maybe some day so will their kids.
96' purple (Grapeape) XJ
Jeffrey A. Trujillo
Field Service Representative
MD Helicopters, Inc.
jeff.trujillo@m...
Voice:(480)346-6249
Fax:(480)346-6813
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68543 From: Duffy Ladd <dladd5@c...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 9:43am
Subject: Duffy's still around He's laying low!
Hey everyone, I'm still around just laying low working in my shop
occasionally when I'm home.
Terresa is alot and enjoys Jeeping so be kind to her. She does own a jeep
but it is stock. So if there is a run and you have an empty seat drop her a
line she might want to go. Oh ya' she is easy on the eyes also so that's a
bonus!
Hope to have mine back together soon !
Duffy
> Hi everyone! I'm Teresa. I just joined AZVJC a few days ago. A good
> friend of mine, Duffy Ladd, told me this was a good place to meet
> other 'Jeep people' and have a lot of fun! So far so good! Drop me a
> line and say hello. Talk to you later.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
68544 From: blt4rox <blt4rox@e...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 9:42am
Subject: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
I think you read a little more into my post than was there.
I was not implying we should do things in secret; only that the
response some are hoping to elicit from this SC woman may not be what
they are expecting.
I also agree with whomever said this should be about cleaning up the
coves, not impressing anyone.
Further, I'm also a redneck hillbilly from Oklahoma so I wasn't
trying to insult anyone.
Go Sooners!
Sean
--- In az_vjc@y..., Daver <daver@c...> wrote:
At 03:52 PM 10/24/2002 +0000, you wrote:
> >I think some of you guys are forgetting what goes on at the coves.
> >There is a huge amount of drunken partying including trash dumping.
> >Most likely while you guys are out on your little clean up, your
new
> >found SC buddy is going to see some drunk @ss hillbillies throwing
> >out their beer cans and running over vegetation. She's going to
get
> >the impression (or strengthen one she's already formed) that most
> >wheelers act that way. Yes, she'll probably think that the
AZVJCr's
> >(or at least some of them) are responsible, but that most wheelers
> >are like the coves' patrons. Face it, the vast majority of the
> >people that hang out at the coves don't shed the best light on our
> >sport.
>
> Yeah, well. They can go out and see that anytime. Here is an
opportunity
> for them to see the "other" side of things 4WD. In my opinion there
is
> really no point in trying to _hide_ things - they'll find out
anyhow. Just
> throw things out there how they are, and go from there. If they
Sierra Club
> finds out that _all_ wheelers aren't drunken hillbilly littering
fools,
> then cool. If they don't, then nothing has really changed. Sure,
they may
> try to turn things against us, but I don't think the answer is to
do things
> in secrecy as if we are doing something wrong. Open and honest, we
can make
> that a trait that distinguishes _us_ from _them_. No backdoor
politics here.
68545 From: Duffy Ladd <dladd5@c...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 9:45am
Subject: Re: Re: Hello!
You see! Smitty's got the run down on me! Got to save money to finish my Heep I mean Jeep!
Duffy
Duffy's job has been keeping him busy. Got to pay for all the toys!! lol
Smitty
roy95yj <roy95yj@yahoo.com> wrote:
--- In az_vjc@y..., "ajeepgirlinaz" wrote:
> Hi everyone! I'm Teresa. I just joined AZVJC a few days ago. A good
> friend of mine, Duffy Ladd, told me this was a good place to meet
> other 'Jeep people' and have a lot of fun! So far so good! Drop me
a
> line and say hello. Talk to you later.
Hello and welcome...
Where has Duffy been??
Roy
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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68546 From: Bob Jacques <bjacques@m...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 9:44am
Subject: RE: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
Just a small caveat here, IF the SC folks do attend, as I think they will.
And IF they honestly join in, work, and enjoy the newfound camaraderie of
the AzVJC, as I hope they will. And IF both groups can leave the politics
and sidewalk psychology out of the equation, at least for the day, then we
must make sure that we collectively control ourselves to make sure this is a
win-win situation and the Coves get cleaned up ! And possibly... just
possibly... both groups can come away with a little better understanding of
all viewpoints...
Bob Jacques
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe West [mailto:joe.west@s...]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:16 AM
To: 'scramzilla'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
Steven,
Unfortunately, this situation isn't quite as black and white as your
email below might lead one to believe you think it is. Since we live in
a free society, the Sierra Club is completely free to come out and watch
us work.
If they choose to try and point out something that we may do wrong (such
as accidentally run over an endangered rock) during the cleanup, it will
be a relatively easy task to show where our hearts were at and that we
were indeed trying to do the right thing.
I suspect that the Sierra Club is smart enough to know that pointing
fingers at a group that is trying to do good things will result in their
ultimate demise. While there are radicals on both sides (your comments
below might lead one to believe that you are one of these) of the
issues, I believe them to be in the minority, and I am thankful that
they are.
It takes a wise person to understand that ultimately, those who's goals
are just will triumph. No matter what happens by bringing in the Sierra
Club (albeit perhaps only one or two members) and showing them how we
work together during the coves cleanup; the result will be positive.
It is easy for narrow minds on both sides of the issue to not trust the
other side. It is much more difficult to do the right thing always...
regardless of the potential consequences. In this case Steven, the
right thing is to clean up the coves and allow everyone who wants to
watch or participate, to do so. Consider this; even if we did not want
to include them, we cannot stop them. So why not invite them to
participate in the hopes that they will see how earnestly we are trying
to make amends for the ignorant slobs among our community who made the
mess at the coves in the first place?
I'll step down now... and allow you to comment if you wish. You stand
on a platform that is indefensible, and right next to you stand the
extremists from the other side. You fail to recognize that ultimately,
the plank you stand on will fail, and you will find yourself crumpled at
the bottom of a chasm with others of your kind while the rest of us
standing together above find a solution which good for everyone.
I look forward to your comments.
Kind Regards,
Joe West
-----Original Message-----
From: scramzilla [mailto:steven.c.forrester@l...]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:52 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
I don't care if the tree huggers comes to the cleanup or not. I still
believe she is a Trojan Horse and you naive wheelers will probably
end up with SC crap on your face. Hey! If I'm wrong, I'm wrong! But I
would not trust one of those whacked out suck heads as far as I could
kick them!
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
68547 From: Dan Schwartz <azdanimal@e...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:04am
Subject: RE: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
I have been watching this conversation for several days now. All I have to
say is, I will have an extra seat in my jeep that is available to anyone who
wants to help clean the coves. I don't care if they are with the sierra
club or aunt suzies knitting club. I care for the environment and want to
clean it up. Invite the everyone you can think of and lets clean the coves.
Remember the old saying "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"
Dan Schwartz
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Jacques [mailto:bjacques@m...]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:44 AM
To: 'Joe West'; 'scramzilla'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
Just a small caveat here, IF the SC folks do attend, as I think they will.
And IF they honestly join in, work, and enjoy the newfound camaraderie of
the AzVJC, as I hope they will. And IF both groups can leave the politics
and sidewalk psychology out of the equation, at least for the day, then we
must make sure that we collectively control ourselves to make sure this is a
win-win situation and the Coves get cleaned up ! And possibly... just
possibly... both groups can come away with a little better understanding of
all viewpoints...
Bob Jacques
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe West [mailto:joe.west@s...]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:16 AM
To: 'scramzilla'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
Steven,
Unfortunately, this situation isn't quite as black and white as your
email below might lead one to believe you think it is. Since we live in
a free society, the Sierra Club is completely free to come out and watch
us work.
If they choose to try and point out something that we may do wrong (such
as accidentally run over an endangered rock) during the cleanup, it will
be a relatively easy task to show where our hearts were at and that we
were indeed trying to do the right thing.
I suspect that the Sierra Club is smart enough to know that pointing
fingers at a group that is trying to do good things will result in their
ultimate demise. While there are radicals on both sides (your comments
below might lead one to believe that you are one of these) of the
issues, I believe them to be in the minority, and I am thankful that
they are.
It takes a wise person to understand that ultimately, those who's goals
are just will triumph. No matter what happens by bringing in the Sierra
Club (albeit perhaps only one or two members) and showing them how we
work together during the coves cleanup; the result will be positive.
It is easy for narrow minds on both sides of the issue to not trust the
other side. It is much more difficult to do the right thing always...
regardless of the potential consequences. In this case Steven, the
right thing is to clean up the coves and allow everyone who wants to
watch or participate, to do so. Consider this; even if we did not want
to include them, we cannot stop them. So why not invite them to
participate in the hopes that they will see how earnestly we are trying
to make amends for the ignorant slobs among our community who made the
mess at the coves in the first place?
I'll step down now... and allow you to comment if you wish. You stand
on a platform that is indefensible, and right next to you stand the
extremists from the other side. You fail to recognize that ultimately,
the plank you stand on will fail, and you will find yourself crumpled at
the bottom of a chasm with others of your kind while the rest of us
standing together above find a solution which good for everyone.
I look forward to your comments.
Kind Regards,
Joe West
-----Original Message-----
From: scramzilla [mailto:steven.c.forrester@l...]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:52 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
I don't care if the tree huggers comes to the cleanup or not. I still
believe she is a Trojan Horse and you naive wheelers will probably
end up with SC crap on your face. Hey! If I'm wrong, I'm wrong! But I
would not trust one of those whacked out suck heads as far as I could
kick them!
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
68548 From: Forrester, Steven C <steven.c.forrester@l...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:00am
Subject: RE: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
As I stated before: "If I'm wrong, I'm wrong!" BUT....I'm the "big picture
guy." The Sierra Club is EVIL! EVIL, EVIL, EVIL! Let me repeat....I do not
care if this SC lady comes to the coves cleanup. But if you think for one
second that is having this SC member come to the cleanup, you will be
turning the curve....lifting the veil.....or some other euphemism with
regards to changing their collective mind, don't hold your breath.
Zilla
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Jacques [mailto:BJacques@m...]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 12:44 PM
To: 'Joe West'; 'scramzilla'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
Just a small caveat here, IF the SC folks do attend, as I think they will.
And IF they honestly join in, work, and enjoy the newfound camaraderie of
the AzVJC, as I hope they will. And IF both groups can leave the politics
and sidewalk psychology out of the equation, at least for the day, then we
must make sure that we collectively control ourselves to make sure this is a
win-win situation and the Coves get cleaned up ! And possibly... just
possibly... both groups can come away with a little better understanding of
all viewpoints...
Bob Jacques
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe West [mailto:joe.west@s...]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:16 AM
To: 'scramzilla'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
Steven,
Unfortunately, this situation isn't quite as black and white as your
email below might lead one to believe you think it is. Since we live in
a free society, the Sierra Club is completely free to come out and watch
us work.
If they choose to try and point out something that we may do wrong (such
as accidentally run over an endangered rock) during the cleanup, it will
be a relatively easy task to show where our hearts were at and that we
were indeed trying to do the right thing.
I suspect that the Sierra Club is smart enough to know that pointing
fingers at a group that is trying to do good things will result in their
ultimate demise. While there are radicals on both sides (your comments
below might lead one to believe that you are one of these) of the
issues, I believe them to be in the minority, and I am thankful that
they are.
It takes a wise person to understand that ultimately, those who's goals
are just will triumph. No matter what happens by bringing in the Sierra
Club (albeit perhaps only one or two members) and showing them how we
work together during the coves cleanup; the result will be positive.
It is easy for narrow minds on both sides of the issue to not trust the
other side. It is much more difficult to do the right thing always...
regardless of the potential consequences. In this case Steven, the
right thing is to clean up the coves and allow everyone who wants to
watch or participate, to do so. Consider this; even if we did not want
to include them, we cannot stop them. So why not invite them to
participate in the hopes that they will see how earnestly we are trying
to make amends for the ignorant slobs among our community who made the
mess at the coves in the first place?
I'll step down now... and allow you to comment if you wish. You stand
on a platform that is indefensible, and right next to you stand the
extremists from the other side. You fail to recognize that ultimately,
the plank you stand on will fail, and you will find yourself crumpled at
the bottom of a chasm with others of your kind while the rest of us
standing together above find a solution which good for everyone.
I look forward to your comments.
Kind Regards,
Joe West
-----Original Message-----
From: scramzilla [mailto:steven.c.forrester@l...]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:52 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
I don't care if the tree huggers comes to the cleanup or not. I still
believe she is a Trojan Horse and you naive wheelers will probably
end up with SC crap on your face. Hey! If I'm wrong, I'm wrong! But I
would not trust one of those whacked out suck heads as far as I could
kick them!
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
68549 From: Me Smith <wheelenx2@y...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 9:44am
Subject: Re: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
No, I am a wheeler who sees trouble on the horizon, and is willing to open his mind to others' way.
jimmy lambertus wrote:
Are you a member of the Sierra Club ?
Jim Lambertus
--- wheelenx2 wrote:
> > I am not going to Parker Splash this year and had
> planned to go out
> > with the VJC to do the Cove clean up. But not now.
> I'll do it
> > somewhere else with others that feel the same way.
>
> "I'm taking my toys and going home." Would have been
> a more direct
> way of getting your point across.
>
> And I say to you:
>
> Good, take your toys and your close minded "I won't
> even talk to the
> enemy" and leave the clean-ups to the adults. Your
> attitude will
> only serve to hurt the sport in the end.
>
> Grow Up a Little,
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
68550 From: Eric <parajeeper02@y...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:16am
Subject: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
-
Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer............
-- In az_vjc@y..., Me Smith <wheelenx2@y...> wrote:
>
> No, I am a wheeler who sees trouble on the horizon, and is willing
to open his mind to others' way.
> jimmy lambertus <jeepnazus@y...> wrote:Are you a member of the
Sierra Club ?
> Jim Lambertus
> --- wheelenx2 wrote:
> > > I am not going to Parker Splash this year and had
> > planned to go out
> > > with the VJC to do the Cove clean up. But not now.
> > I'll do it
> > > somewhere else with others that feel the same way.
> >
> > "I'm taking my toys and going home." Would have been
> > a more direct
> > way of getting your point across.
> >
> > And I say to you:
> >
> > Good, take your toys and your close minded "I won't
> > even talk to the
> > enemy" and leave the clean-ups to the adults. Your
> > attitude will
> > only serve to hurt the sport in the end.
> >
> > Grow Up a Little,
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
> http://webhosting.yahoo.com/
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
68551 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:16am
Subject: Part time 4WD TJ question
A friend I work with bought a used 2001 (or 2002) and this past weekend went up to Four Peaks to test the 4 wheel drive. It is a 4.0L automatic. When he engaged the transfer case into 4Hi the Part Time 4WD light came on. The question is: Is there such a thing as part time 4wd in a TJ? He went to the dealer and they said that only TJ's back east have full time 4WD. Is this a load of crap or what?
Joey K
93YJ
68552 From: scramzilla <steven.c.forrester@l...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:17am
Subject: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
You need to read all my threads....I have never said that they
(whoever) should not be included in any cleanup. The
"find yourself crumpled at the bottom of a chasm with others of your
kind while the rest of us standing together above find a solution
which good for everyone." part of your email is grandiose at the very
least. All this "stuff", for lack of a better word, is
opinion....nothing more.
I believe in keeping your friends close and your enemies closer, so
bring them to the cloves. I would never try to sway the weaker of the
SC members because they are NOT the ones running the show. I do my
fighting at the BLM meetings and in the courts. This is the land
issue battlefield of the 21st century and this is where the war will
be won or lost. Book it!
Zilla
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe West" <joe.west@s...> wrote:
> Steven,
>
> Unfortunately, this situation isn't quite as black and white as your
> email below might lead one to believe you think it is. Since we
live in
> a free society, the Sierra Club is completely free to come out and
watch
> us work.
> If they choose to try and point out something that we may do wrong
(such
> as accidentally run over an endangered rock) during the cleanup, it
will
> be a relatively easy task to show where our hearts were at and that
we
> were indeed trying to do the right thing.
>
> I suspect that the Sierra Club is smart enough to know that pointing
> fingers at a group that is trying to do good things will result in
their
> ultimate demise. While there are radicals on both sides (your
comments
> below might lead one to believe that you are one of these) of the
> issues, I believe them to be in the minority, and I am thankful that
> they are.
>
> It takes a wise person to understand that ultimately, those who's
goals
> are just will triumph. No matter what happens by bringing in the
Sierra
> Club (albeit perhaps only one or two members) and showing them how
we
> work together during the coves cleanup; the result will be positive.
>
> It is easy for narrow minds on both sides of the issue to not trust
the
> other side. It is much more difficult to do the right thing
always...
> regardless of the potential consequences. In this case Steven, the
> right thing is to clean up the coves and allow everyone who wants to
> watch or participate, to do so. Consider this; even if we did not
want
> to include them, we cannot stop them. So why not invite them to
> participate in the hopes that they will see how earnestly we are
trying
> to make amends for the ignorant slobs among our community who made
the
> mess at the coves in the first place?
>
> I'll step down now... and allow you to comment if you wish. You
stand
> on a platform that is indefensible, and right next to you stand the
> extremists from the other side. You fail to recognize that
ultimately,
> the plank you stand on will fail, and you will find yourself
crumpled at
> the bottom of a chasm with others of your kind while the rest of us
> standing together above find a solution which good for everyone.
>
> I look forward to your comments.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Joe West
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: scramzilla [mailto:steven.c.forrester@l...]
> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:52 AM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
>
> I don't care if the tree huggers comes to the cleanup or not. I
still
> believe she is a Trojan Horse and you naive wheelers will probably
> end up with SC crap on your face. Hey! If I'm wrong, I'm wrong! But
I
> would not trust one of those whacked out suck heads as far as I
could
> kick them!
68553 From: Joey Martinez <joey@w...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:17am
Subject: does anyone know the website for buying vjc shirts?
TIA
94xjoe
68554 From: Ray B. <KB7SKV@C...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:26am
Subject: Re: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
GUYS!!!! It's real simple. Invite her (them) they can come anyway so what's the debate about?? Weather it changes their mind, bolsters current thoughts, or does Nothing does NOT matter!! We're gonna clean the Coves, people are gonna watch, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion!! GIVE IT A REST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
See ya at the coves!
Our .02
Ray and Amanda
AZAV8ER
scramzilla wrote:
You need to read all my threads....I have never said that they (whoever) should not be included in any cleanup. The "find yourself crumpled at the bottom of a chasm with others of your kind while the rest of us standing together above find a solution which good for everyone." part of your email is grandiose at the very least. All this "stuff", for lack of a better word, is opinion....nothing more.
I believe in keeping your friends close and your enemies closer, so bring them to the cloves. I would never try to sway the weaker of the SC members because they are NOT the ones running the show. I do my fighting at the BLM meetings and in the courts. This is the land issue battlefield of the 21st century and this is where the war will be won or lost. Book it! Zilla
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe West" wrote:
Steven,
Unfortunately, this situation isn't quite as black and white as your
email below might lead one to believe you think it is. Since we
live in
a free society, the Sierra Club is completely free to come out and
watch
us work.
If they choose to try and point out something that we may do wrong
(such
as accidentally run over an endangered rock) during the cleanup, it
will
be a relatively easy task to show where our hearts were at and that
we
were indeed trying to do the right thing.
I suspect that the Sierra Club is smart enough to know that pointing
fingers at a group that is trying to do good things will result in
their
ultimate demise. While there are radicals on both sides (your
comments
below might lead one to believe that you are one of these) of the
issues, I believe them to be in the minority, and I am thankful that
they are.
It takes a wise person to understand that ultimately, those who's
goals
are just will triumph. No matter what happens by bringing in the
Sierra
Club (albeit perhaps only one or two members) and showing them how
we
work together during the coves cleanup; the result will be positive.
It is easy for narrow minds on both sides of the issue to not trust
the
other side. It is much more difficult to do the right thing
always...
regardless of the potential consequences. In this case Steven, the
right thing is to clean up the coves and allow everyone who wants to
watch or participate, to do so. Consider this; even if we did not
want
to include them, we cannot stop them. So why not invite them to
participate in the hopes that they will see how earnestly we are
trying
to make amends for the ignorant slobs among our community who made
the
mess at the coves in the first place?
I'll step down now... and allow you to comment if you wish. You
stand
on a platform that is indefensible, and right next to you stand the
extremists from the other side. You fail to recognize that
ultimately,
the plank you stand on will fail, and you will find yourself
crumpled at
the bottom of a chasm with others of your kind while the rest of us
standing together above find a solution which good for everyone.
I look forward to your comments.
Kind Regards,
Joe West -----Original Message-----
From: scramzilla [mailto:steven.c.forrester@l...] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:52 AM
To: az_vjc@y...
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
I don't care if the tree huggers comes to the cleanup or not. I
still
believe she is a Trojan Horse and you naive wheelers will probably end up with SC crap on your face. Hey! If I'm wrong, I'm wrong! But
I
would not trust one of those whacked out suck heads as far as I
could
kick them!
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
68555 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:23am
Subject: Re: does anyone know the website for buying vjc shirts?
http://www.cafeshops.com/cp/store.aspx?s=azvjc
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joey Martinez" <joey@w...> wrote:
> TIA
>
> 94xjoe
68556 From: Forrester, Steven C <steven.c.forrester@l...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:27am
Subject: RE: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
Look Ray. If this thread is to upsetting for you then DON'T READ IT! I don't believe anyone is getting upset here......well maybe you. I want to hear all sides of this issue. I like to know how people think with regards to the earth cookies. People have been telling me how they feel and I have been giving my 2 cents...nothing more....nothing less.
Zilla
-----Original Message-----
From: Ray B. [mailto:kb7skv@cybertrails.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 1:27 PM
To: scramzilla
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
GUYS!!!! It's real simple. Invite her (them) they can come anyway so what's the debate about?? Weather it changes their mind, bolsters current thoughts, or does Nothing does NOT matter!! We're gonna clean the Coves, people are gonna watch, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion!! GIVE IT A REST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
See ya at the coves!
Our .02
Ray and Amanda
AZAV8ER
scramzilla wrote:
You need to read all my threads....I have never said that they (whoever) should not be included in any cleanup. The "find yourself crumpled at the bottom of a chasm with others of your kind while the rest of us standing together above find a solution which good for everyone." part of your email is grandiose at the very least. All this "stuff", for lack of a better word, is opinion....nothing more.
I believe in keeping your friends close and your enemies closer, so bring them to the cloves. I would never try to sway the weaker of the SC members because they are NOT the ones running the show. I do my fighting at the BLM meetings and in the courts. This is the land issue battlefield of the 21st century and this is where the war will be won or lost. Book it! Zilla
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe West" wrote:
Steven,
Unfortunately, this situation isn't quite as black and white as your
email below might lead one to believe you think it is. Since we
live in
a free society, the Sierra Club is completely free to come out and
watch
us work.
If they choose to try and point out something that we may do wrong
(such
as accidentally run over an endangered rock) during the cleanup, it
will
be a relatively easy task to show where our hearts were at and that
we
were indeed trying to do the right thing.
I suspect that the Sierra Club is smart enough to know that pointing
fingers at a group that is trying to do good things will result in
their
ultimate demise. While there are radicals on both sides (your
comments
below might lead one to believe that you are one of these) of the
issues, I believe them to be in the minority, and I am thankful that
they are.
It takes a wise person to understand that ultimately, those who's
goals
are just will triumph. No matter what happens by bringing in the
Sierra
Club (albeit perhaps only one or two members) and showing them how
we
work together during the coves cleanup; the result will be positive.
It is easy for narrow minds on both sides of the issue to not trust
the
other side. It is much more difficult to do the right thing
always...
regardless of the potential consequences. In this case Steven, the
right thing is to clean up the coves and allow everyone who wants to
watch or participate, to do so. Consider this; even if we did not
want
to include them, we cannot stop them. So why not invite them to
participate in the hopes that they will see how earnestly we are
trying
to make amends for the ignorant slobs among our community who made
the
mess at the coves in the first place?
I'll step down now... and allow you to comment if you wish. You
stand
on a platform that is indefensible, and right next to you stand the
extremists from the other side. You fail to recognize that
ultimately,
the plank you stand on will fail, and you will find yourself
crumpled at
the bottom of a chasm with others of your kind while the rest of us
standing together above find a solution which good for everyone.
I look forward to your comments.
Kind Regards,
Joe West -----Original Message-----
From: scramzilla [mailto:steven.c.forrester@l...] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:52 AM
To: az_vjc@y...
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
I don't care if the tree huggers comes to the cleanup or not. I
still
believe she is a Trojan Horse and you naive wheelers will probably end up with SC crap on your face. Hey! If I'm wrong, I'm wrong! But
I
would not trust one of those whacked out suck heads as far as I
could
kick them!
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
68557 From: Mike Beach <mikebeach2002@y...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:28am
Subject: FS: 33" MTR spares 40each$
hey all,
Ive got 3 MTR's with pretty decent tread left on em. They could be used as great spares. 40$ each, shoot me an e-mail or call 602-405-4606.
Mike
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
68558 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:29am
Subject: RE: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
calm down man. remember last time you got riled up!! :) LOL
Joey K
93YJ
-----Original Message-----
From: Ray B. [mailto:KB7SKV@CYBERTRAILS.COM]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:27 AM
To: scramzilla
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
GUYS!!!! It's real simple. Invite her (them) they can come anyway so what's the debate about?? Weather it changes their mind, bolsters current thoughts, or does Nothing does NOT matter!! We're gonna clean the Coves, people are gonna watch, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion!! GIVE IT A REST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
See ya at the coves!
Our .02
Ray and Amanda
AZAV8ER
scramzilla wrote:
You need to read all my threads....I have never said that they (whoever) should not be included in any cleanup. The "find yourself crumpled at the bottom of a chasm with others of your kind while the rest of us standing together above find a solution which good for everyone." part of your email is grandiose at the very least. All this "stuff", for lack of a better word, is opinion....nothing more.
I believe in keeping your friends close and your enemies closer, so bring them to the cloves. I would never try to sway the weaker of the SC members because they are NOT the ones running the show. I do my fighting at the BLM meetings and in the courts. This is the land issue battlefield of the 21st century and this is where the war will be won or lost. Book it! Zilla
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe West" wrote:
Steven,
Unfortunately, this situation isn't quite as black and white as your
email below might lead one to believe you think it is. Since we
live in
a free society, the Sierra Club is completely free to come out and
watch
us work.
If they choose to try and point out something that we may do wrong
(such
as accidentally run over an endangered rock) during the cleanup, it
will
be a relatively easy task to show where our hearts were at and that
we
were indeed trying to do the right thing.
I suspect that the Sierra Club is smart enough to know that pointing
fingers at a group that is trying to do good things will result in
their
ultimate demise. While there are radicals on both sides (your
comments
below might lead one to believe that you are one of these) of the
issues, I believe them to be in the minority, and I am thankful that
they are.
It takes a wise person to understand that ultimately, those who's
goals
are just will triumph. No matter what happens by bringing in the
Sierra
Club (albeit perhaps only one or two members) and showing them how
we
work together during the coves cleanup; the result will be positive.
It is easy for narrow minds on both sides of the issue to not trust
the
other side. It is much more difficult to do the right thing
always...
regardless of the potential consequences. In this case Steven, the
right thing is to clean up the coves and allow everyone who wants to
watch or participate, to do so. Consider this; even if we did not
want
to include them, we cannot stop them. So why not invite them to
participate in the hopes that they will see how earnestly we are
trying
to make amends for the ignorant slobs among our community who made
the
mess at the coves in the first place?
I'll step down now... and allow you to comment if you wish. You
stand
on a platform that is indefensible, and right next to you stand the
extremists from the other side. You fail to recognize that
ultimately,
the plank you stand on will fail, and you will find yourself
crumpled at
the bottom of a chasm with others of your kind while the rest of us
standing together above find a solution which good for everyone.
I look forward to your comments.
Kind Regards,
Joe West -----Original Message-----
From: scramzilla [mailto:steven.c.forrester@l...] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:52 AM
To: az_vjc@y...
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
I don't care if the tree huggers comes to the cleanup or not. I
still
believe she is a Trojan Horse and you naive wheelers will probably end up with SC crap on your face. Hey! If I'm wrong, I'm wrong! But
I
would not trust one of those whacked out suck heads as far as I
could
kick them!
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
68559 From: FredTJ <fredtj@c...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:36am
Subject: Re: Part time 4WD TJ question
All TJ's are "part time 4 wheel drive"... The only time that they are in 4 wheel drive, is when the xfer case is shifted into 4hi or 4lo.
The "dealer" (person) that he talked to, doesn't know what they are talking about.
Cheers,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: DesertJeep
To: 'AzVJC'
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:16 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Part time 4WD TJ question
A friend I work with bought a used 2001 (or 2002) and this past weekend went up to Four Peaks to test the 4 wheel drive. It is a 4.0L automatic. When he engaged the transfer case into 4Hi the Part Time 4WD light came on. The question is: Is there such a thing as part time 4wd in a TJ? He went to the dealer and they said that only TJ's back east have full time 4WD. Is this a load of crap or what?
Joey K
93YJ
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
68560 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:40am
Subject: RE: Part time 4WD TJ question
True, but the light should be on all the time and go off or change to full time when shifted to 4hi or 4lo.
Joey K
-----Original Message-----
From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:36 AM
To: DesertJeep; 'AzVJC'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Part time 4WD TJ question
All TJ's are "part time 4 wheel drive"... The only time that they are in 4 wheel drive, is when the xfer case is shifted into 4hi or 4lo.
The "dealer" (person) that he talked to, doesn't know what they are talking about.
Cheers,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: DesertJeep
To: 'AzVJC'
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:16 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Part time 4WD TJ question
A friend I work with bought a used 2001 (or 2002) and this past weekend went up to Four Peaks to test the 4 wheel drive. It is a 4.0L automatic. When he engaged the transfer case into 4Hi the Part Time 4WD light came on. The question is: Is there such a thing as part time 4wd in a TJ? He went to the dealer and they said that only TJ's back east have full time 4WD. Is this a load of crap or what?
Joey K
93YJ
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
68561 From: Joe Kearney <Joe-CJ7@j...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:41am
Subject: Re: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
So Dan,
What do the Aunt Suzie's knitting club women look like?
I will take one in my Jeep.
<GRIN>
Joe Kearney
Joe-CJ7@J...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Schwartz" <azdanimal@e...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:04 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
> I have been watching this conversation for several days now. All I have
to
> say is, I will have an extra seat in my jeep that is available to anyone
who
> wants to help clean the coves. I don't care if they are with the sierra
> club or aunt suzies knitting club. I care for the environment and want to
> clean it up. Invite the everyone you can think of and lets clean the
coves.
>
> Remember the old saying "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"
>
> Dan Schwartz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Jacques [mailto:bjacques@m...]
> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:44 AM
> To: 'Joe West'; 'scramzilla'
> Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
>
>
> Just a small caveat here, IF the SC folks do attend, as I think they will.
> And IF they honestly join in, work, and enjoy the newfound camaraderie of
> the AzVJC, as I hope they will. And IF both groups can leave the politics
> and sidewalk psychology out of the equation, at least for the day, then we
> must make sure that we collectively control ourselves to make sure this is
a
> win-win situation and the Coves get cleaned up ! And possibly... just
> possibly... both groups can come away with a little better understanding
of
> all viewpoints...
>
> Bob Jacques
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe West [mailto:joe.west@s...]
> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:16 AM
> To: 'scramzilla'
> Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
>
>
> Steven,
>
> Unfortunately, this situation isn't quite as black and white as your
> email below might lead one to believe you think it is. Since we live in
> a free society, the Sierra Club is completely free to come out and watch
> us work.
> If they choose to try and point out something that we may do wrong (such
> as accidentally run over an endangered rock) during the cleanup, it will
> be a relatively easy task to show where our hearts were at and that we
> were indeed trying to do the right thing.
>
> I suspect that the Sierra Club is smart enough to know that pointing
> fingers at a group that is trying to do good things will result in their
> ultimate demise. While there are radicals on both sides (your comments
> below might lead one to believe that you are one of these) of the
> issues, I believe them to be in the minority, and I am thankful that
> they are.
>
> It takes a wise person to understand that ultimately, those who's goals
> are just will triumph. No matter what happens by bringing in the Sierra
> Club (albeit perhaps only one or two members) and showing them how we
> work together during the coves cleanup; the result will be positive.
>
> It is easy for narrow minds on both sides of the issue to not trust the
> other side. It is much more difficult to do the right thing always...
> regardless of the potential consequences. In this case Steven, the
> right thing is to clean up the coves and allow everyone who wants to
> watch or participate, to do so. Consider this; even if we did not want
> to include them, we cannot stop them. So why not invite them to
> participate in the hopes that they will see how earnestly we are trying
> to make amends for the ignorant slobs among our community who made the
> mess at the coves in the first place?
>
> I'll step down now... and allow you to comment if you wish. You stand
> on a platform that is indefensible, and right next to you stand the
> extremists from the other side. You fail to recognize that ultimately,
> the plank you stand on will fail, and you will find yourself crumpled at
> the bottom of a chasm with others of your kind while the rest of us
> standing together above find a solution which good for everyone.
>
> I look forward to your comments.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Joe West
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: scramzilla [mailto:steven.c.forrester@l...]
> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:52 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
>
> I don't care if the tree huggers comes to the cleanup or not. I still
> believe she is a Trojan Horse and you naive wheelers will probably
> end up with SC crap on your face. Hey! If I'm wrong, I'm wrong! But I
> would not trust one of those whacked out suck heads as far as I could
> kick them!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
68562 From: FredTJ <fredtj@c...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:49am
Subject: Re: Part time 4WD TJ question
The "4wd light" only comes on (at least in '97 ~ '99 TJ's that I've seen), when the xfer case is shifted into either 4hi or 4lo.
:)
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: DesertJeep
To: 'FredTJ' ; 'AzVJC'
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Part time 4WD TJ question
True, but the light should be on all the time and go off or change to full time when shifted to 4hi or 4lo.
Joey K
-----Original Message-----
From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:36 AM
To: DesertJeep; 'AzVJC'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Part time 4WD TJ question
All TJ's are "part time 4 wheel drive"... The only time that they are in 4 wheel drive, is when the xfer case is shifted into 4hi or 4lo.
The "dealer" (person) that he talked to, doesn't know what they are talking about.
Cheers,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: DesertJeep
To: 'AzVJC'
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:16 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Part time 4WD TJ question
A friend I work with bought a used 2001 (or 2002) and this past weekend went up to Four Peaks to test the 4 wheel drive. It is a 4.0L automatic. When he engaged the transfer case into 4Hi the Part Time 4WD light came on. The question is: Is there such a thing as part time 4wd in a TJ? He went to the dealer and they said that only TJ's back east have full time 4WD. Is this a load of crap or what?
Joey K
93YJ
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
68538 From: Joe West <joe.west@s...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 9:16am
Subject: RE: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
Steven,
Unfortunately, this situation isn't quite as black and white as your
email below might lead one to believe you think it is. Since we live in
a free society, the Sierra Club is completely free to come out and watch
us work.
If they choose to try and point out something that we may do wrong (such
as accidentally run over an endangered rock) during the cleanup, it will
be a relatively easy task to show where our hearts were at and that we
were indeed trying to do the right thing.
I suspect that the Sierra Club is smart enough to know that pointing
fingers at a group that is trying to do good things will result in their
ultimate demise. While there are radicals on both sides (your comments
below might lead one to believe that you are one of these) of the
issues, I believe them to be in the minority, and I am thankful that
they are.
It takes a wise person to understand that ultimately, those who's goals
are just will triumph. No matter what happens by bringing in the Sierra
Club (albeit perhaps only one or two members) and showing them how we
work together during the coves cleanup; the result will be positive.
It is easy for narrow minds on both sides of the issue to not trust the
other side. It is much more difficult to do the right thing always...
regardless of the potential consequences. In this case Steven, the
right thing is to clean up the coves and allow everyone who wants to
watch or participate, to do so. Consider this; even if we did not want
to include them, we cannot stop them. So why not invite them to
participate in the hopes that they will see how earnestly we are trying
to make amends for the ignorant slobs among our community who made the
mess at the coves in the first place?
I'll step down now... and allow you to comment if you wish. You stand
on a platform that is indefensible, and right next to you stand the
extremists from the other side. You fail to recognize that ultimately,
the plank you stand on will fail, and you will find yourself crumpled at
the bottom of a chasm with others of your kind while the rest of us
standing together above find a solution which good for everyone.
I look forward to your comments.
Kind Regards,
Joe West
-----Original Message-----
From: scramzilla [mailto:steven.c.forrester@l...]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:52 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
I don't care if the tree huggers comes to the cleanup or not. I still
believe she is a Trojan Horse and you naive wheelers will probably
end up with SC crap on your face. Hey! If I'm wrong, I'm wrong! But I
would not trust one of those whacked out suck heads as far as I could
kick them!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
68539 From: Mitch Woodward <mitchwoodward@h...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 9:13am
Subject: Re: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
Well said, Jim. It's up to us to convert one sierra club member at a time.
If we kill them with kindness, and repeatedly show them that we are
responsible, eventually they might start to see things our way. I always
offer them a chance to ride along, get involved, observe us, etc.
Mitch
> >
> > "I'm taking my toys and going home." Would have been
> > a more direct
> > way of getting your point across.
> >
> > And I say to you:
> >
> > Good, take your toys and your close minded "I won't
> > even talk to the
> > enemy" and leave the clean-ups to the adults. Your
> > attitude will
> > only serve to hurt the sport in the end.
> >
> > Grow Up a Little,
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
> http://webhosting.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
68540 From: Daver <daver@c...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 9:16am
Subject: Re: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
At 03:52 PM 10/24/2002 +0000, you wrote:
>I think some of you guys are forgetting what goes on at the coves.
>There is a huge amount of drunken partying including trash dumping.
>Most likely while you guys are out on your little clean up, your new
>found SC buddy is going to see some drunk @ss hillbillies throwing
>out their beer cans and running over vegetation. She's going to get
>the impression (or strengthen one she's already formed) that most
>wheelers act that way. Yes, she'll probably think that the AZVJCr's
>(or at least some of them) are responsible, but that most wheelers
>are like the coves' patrons. Face it, the vast majority of the
>people that hang out at the coves don't shed the best light on our
>sport.
Yeah, well. They can go out and see that anytime. Here is an opportunity
for them to see the "other" side of things 4WD. In my opinion there is
really no point in trying to _hide_ things - they'll find out anyhow. Just
throw things out there how they are, and go from there. If they Sierra Club
finds out that _all_ wheelers aren't drunken hillbilly littering fools,
then cool. If they don't, then nothing has really changed. Sure, they may
try to turn things against us, but I don't think the answer is to do things
in secrecy as if we are doing something wrong. Open and honest, we can make
that a trait that distinguishes _us_ from _them_. No backdoor politics here.
68541 From: Daver <daver@c...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 9:18am
Subject: Re: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
Are you reading for comprehension?
At 09:03 AM 10/24/2002 -0700, jimmy lambertus wrote:
>Are you a member of the Sierra Club ?
> Jim Lambertus
>--- wheelenx2 <wheelenx2@y...> wrote:
> > > I am not going to Parker Splash this year and had
> > planned to go out
> > > with the VJC to do the Cove clean up. But not now.
> > I'll do it
> > > somewhere else with others that feel the same way.
> >
> > "I'm taking my toys and going home." Would have been
> > a more direct
> > way of getting your point across.
> >
> > And I say to you:
> >
> > Good, take your toys and your close minded "I won't
> > even talk to the
> > enemy" and leave the clean-ups to the adults. Your
> > attitude will
> > only serve to hurt the sport in the end.
> >
> > Grow Up a Little,
> >
> > Jim
68542 From: Trujillo, Jeff <jeff.trujillo@m...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 9:22am
Subject: RE: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
Can't we all just get along? Sorry, had to say that. I just got into the
email group and I have to tell you, I have never received so much email in a
1 minute period. I've been to the cove's quite a few times and it looks like
crap. I am ashamed and afraid to take my kids there because of this. That is
why I will be there cleaning up. If we don't do it, who will? I'm not going
to impress some other club (sierra club-never heard of till now). I am going
so I can take my kids and enjoy the lake. Everytime I go I end up taking out
other peoples trash. And it's my finding that it's not coming from jeepers.
Everyone I run into is like me. Leave it cleaner than you found it. Yes, i'm
a (hick, hillbilly, country ****) but it's us country folk that are more in
tune to keep **** clean. (If you can keep **** clean-never tried it) LOL. So
I will be there to clean and there is someone there laying in the road or
hugging a tree oh well. At least my kids will be able to enjoy the lake and
maybe some day so will their kids.
96' purple (Grapeape) XJ
Jeffrey A. Trujillo
Field Service Representative
MD Helicopters, Inc.
jeff.trujillo@m...
Voice:(480)346-6249
Fax:(480)346-6813
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
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taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or
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MD Helicopters, Inc. is prohibited. If you received this in error, please
contact the sender by email and delete the material from any computer..
68543 From: Duffy Ladd <dladd5@c...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 9:43am
Subject: Duffy's still around He's laying low!
Hey everyone, I'm still around just laying low working in my shop
occasionally when I'm home.
Terresa is alot and enjoys Jeeping so be kind to her. She does own a jeep
but it is stock. So if there is a run and you have an empty seat drop her a
line she might want to go. Oh ya' she is easy on the eyes also so that's a
bonus!
Hope to have mine back together soon !
Duffy
> Hi everyone! I'm Teresa. I just joined AZVJC a few days ago. A good
> friend of mine, Duffy Ladd, told me this was a good place to meet
> other 'Jeep people' and have a lot of fun! So far so good! Drop me a
> line and say hello. Talk to you later.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
68544 From: blt4rox <blt4rox@e...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 9:42am
Subject: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
I think you read a little more into my post than was there.
I was not implying we should do things in secret; only that the
response some are hoping to elicit from this SC woman may not be what
they are expecting.
I also agree with whomever said this should be about cleaning up the
coves, not impressing anyone.
Further, I'm also a redneck hillbilly from Oklahoma so I wasn't
trying to insult anyone.
Go Sooners!
Sean
--- In az_vjc@y..., Daver <daver@c...> wrote:
At 03:52 PM 10/24/2002 +0000, you wrote:
> >I think some of you guys are forgetting what goes on at the coves.
> >There is a huge amount of drunken partying including trash dumping.
> >Most likely while you guys are out on your little clean up, your
new
> >found SC buddy is going to see some drunk @ss hillbillies throwing
> >out their beer cans and running over vegetation. She's going to
get
> >the impression (or strengthen one she's already formed) that most
> >wheelers act that way. Yes, she'll probably think that the
AZVJCr's
> >(or at least some of them) are responsible, but that most wheelers
> >are like the coves' patrons. Face it, the vast majority of the
> >people that hang out at the coves don't shed the best light on our
> >sport.
>
> Yeah, well. They can go out and see that anytime. Here is an
opportunity
> for them to see the "other" side of things 4WD. In my opinion there
is
> really no point in trying to _hide_ things - they'll find out
anyhow. Just
> throw things out there how they are, and go from there. If they
Sierra Club
> finds out that _all_ wheelers aren't drunken hillbilly littering
fools,
> then cool. If they don't, then nothing has really changed. Sure,
they may
> try to turn things against us, but I don't think the answer is to
do things
> in secrecy as if we are doing something wrong. Open and honest, we
can make
> that a trait that distinguishes _us_ from _them_. No backdoor
politics here.
68545 From: Duffy Ladd <dladd5@c...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 9:45am
Subject: Re: Re: Hello!
You see! Smitty's got the run down on me! Got to save money to finish my Heep I mean Jeep!
Duffy
Duffy's job has been keeping him busy. Got to pay for all the toys!! lol
Smitty
roy95yj <roy95yj@yahoo.com> wrote:
--- In az_vjc@y..., "ajeepgirlinaz" wrote:
> Hi everyone! I'm Teresa. I just joined AZVJC a few days ago. A good
> friend of mine, Duffy Ladd, told me this was a good place to meet
> other 'Jeep people' and have a lot of fun! So far so good! Drop me
a
> line and say hello. Talk to you later.
Hello and welcome...
Where has Duffy been??
Roy
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
68546 From: Bob Jacques <bjacques@m...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 9:44am
Subject: RE: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
Just a small caveat here, IF the SC folks do attend, as I think they will.
And IF they honestly join in, work, and enjoy the newfound camaraderie of
the AzVJC, as I hope they will. And IF both groups can leave the politics
and sidewalk psychology out of the equation, at least for the day, then we
must make sure that we collectively control ourselves to make sure this is a
win-win situation and the Coves get cleaned up ! And possibly... just
possibly... both groups can come away with a little better understanding of
all viewpoints...
Bob Jacques
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe West [mailto:joe.west@s...]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:16 AM
To: 'scramzilla'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
Steven,
Unfortunately, this situation isn't quite as black and white as your
email below might lead one to believe you think it is. Since we live in
a free society, the Sierra Club is completely free to come out and watch
us work.
If they choose to try and point out something that we may do wrong (such
as accidentally run over an endangered rock) during the cleanup, it will
be a relatively easy task to show where our hearts were at and that we
were indeed trying to do the right thing.
I suspect that the Sierra Club is smart enough to know that pointing
fingers at a group that is trying to do good things will result in their
ultimate demise. While there are radicals on both sides (your comments
below might lead one to believe that you are one of these) of the
issues, I believe them to be in the minority, and I am thankful that
they are.
It takes a wise person to understand that ultimately, those who's goals
are just will triumph. No matter what happens by bringing in the Sierra
Club (albeit perhaps only one or two members) and showing them how we
work together during the coves cleanup; the result will be positive.
It is easy for narrow minds on both sides of the issue to not trust the
other side. It is much more difficult to do the right thing always...
regardless of the potential consequences. In this case Steven, the
right thing is to clean up the coves and allow everyone who wants to
watch or participate, to do so. Consider this; even if we did not want
to include them, we cannot stop them. So why not invite them to
participate in the hopes that they will see how earnestly we are trying
to make amends for the ignorant slobs among our community who made the
mess at the coves in the first place?
I'll step down now... and allow you to comment if you wish. You stand
on a platform that is indefensible, and right next to you stand the
extremists from the other side. You fail to recognize that ultimately,
the plank you stand on will fail, and you will find yourself crumpled at
the bottom of a chasm with others of your kind while the rest of us
standing together above find a solution which good for everyone.
I look forward to your comments.
Kind Regards,
Joe West
-----Original Message-----
From: scramzilla [mailto:steven.c.forrester@l...]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:52 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
I don't care if the tree huggers comes to the cleanup or not. I still
believe she is a Trojan Horse and you naive wheelers will probably
end up with SC crap on your face. Hey! If I'm wrong, I'm wrong! But I
would not trust one of those whacked out suck heads as far as I could
kick them!
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
68547 From: Dan Schwartz <azdanimal@e...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:04am
Subject: RE: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
I have been watching this conversation for several days now. All I have to
say is, I will have an extra seat in my jeep that is available to anyone who
wants to help clean the coves. I don't care if they are with the sierra
club or aunt suzies knitting club. I care for the environment and want to
clean it up. Invite the everyone you can think of and lets clean the coves.
Remember the old saying "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"
Dan Schwartz
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Jacques [mailto:bjacques@m...]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:44 AM
To: 'Joe West'; 'scramzilla'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
Just a small caveat here, IF the SC folks do attend, as I think they will.
And IF they honestly join in, work, and enjoy the newfound camaraderie of
the AzVJC, as I hope they will. And IF both groups can leave the politics
and sidewalk psychology out of the equation, at least for the day, then we
must make sure that we collectively control ourselves to make sure this is a
win-win situation and the Coves get cleaned up ! And possibly... just
possibly... both groups can come away with a little better understanding of
all viewpoints...
Bob Jacques
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe West [mailto:joe.west@s...]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:16 AM
To: 'scramzilla'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
Steven,
Unfortunately, this situation isn't quite as black and white as your
email below might lead one to believe you think it is. Since we live in
a free society, the Sierra Club is completely free to come out and watch
us work.
If they choose to try and point out something that we may do wrong (such
as accidentally run over an endangered rock) during the cleanup, it will
be a relatively easy task to show where our hearts were at and that we
were indeed trying to do the right thing.
I suspect that the Sierra Club is smart enough to know that pointing
fingers at a group that is trying to do good things will result in their
ultimate demise. While there are radicals on both sides (your comments
below might lead one to believe that you are one of these) of the
issues, I believe them to be in the minority, and I am thankful that
they are.
It takes a wise person to understand that ultimately, those who's goals
are just will triumph. No matter what happens by bringing in the Sierra
Club (albeit perhaps only one or two members) and showing them how we
work together during the coves cleanup; the result will be positive.
It is easy for narrow minds on both sides of the issue to not trust the
other side. It is much more difficult to do the right thing always...
regardless of the potential consequences. In this case Steven, the
right thing is to clean up the coves and allow everyone who wants to
watch or participate, to do so. Consider this; even if we did not want
to include them, we cannot stop them. So why not invite them to
participate in the hopes that they will see how earnestly we are trying
to make amends for the ignorant slobs among our community who made the
mess at the coves in the first place?
I'll step down now... and allow you to comment if you wish. You stand
on a platform that is indefensible, and right next to you stand the
extremists from the other side. You fail to recognize that ultimately,
the plank you stand on will fail, and you will find yourself crumpled at
the bottom of a chasm with others of your kind while the rest of us
standing together above find a solution which good for everyone.
I look forward to your comments.
Kind Regards,
Joe West
-----Original Message-----
From: scramzilla [mailto:steven.c.forrester@l...]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:52 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
I don't care if the tree huggers comes to the cleanup or not. I still
believe she is a Trojan Horse and you naive wheelers will probably
end up with SC crap on your face. Hey! If I'm wrong, I'm wrong! But I
would not trust one of those whacked out suck heads as far as I could
kick them!
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
68548 From: Forrester, Steven C <steven.c.forrester@l...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:00am
Subject: RE: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
As I stated before: "If I'm wrong, I'm wrong!" BUT....I'm the "big picture
guy." The Sierra Club is EVIL! EVIL, EVIL, EVIL! Let me repeat....I do not
care if this SC lady comes to the coves cleanup. But if you think for one
second that is having this SC member come to the cleanup, you will be
turning the curve....lifting the veil.....or some other euphemism with
regards to changing their collective mind, don't hold your breath.
Zilla
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Jacques [mailto:BJacques@m...]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 12:44 PM
To: 'Joe West'; 'scramzilla'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
Just a small caveat here, IF the SC folks do attend, as I think they will.
And IF they honestly join in, work, and enjoy the newfound camaraderie of
the AzVJC, as I hope they will. And IF both groups can leave the politics
and sidewalk psychology out of the equation, at least for the day, then we
must make sure that we collectively control ourselves to make sure this is a
win-win situation and the Coves get cleaned up ! And possibly... just
possibly... both groups can come away with a little better understanding of
all viewpoints...
Bob Jacques
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe West [mailto:joe.west@s...]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:16 AM
To: 'scramzilla'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
Steven,
Unfortunately, this situation isn't quite as black and white as your
email below might lead one to believe you think it is. Since we live in
a free society, the Sierra Club is completely free to come out and watch
us work.
If they choose to try and point out something that we may do wrong (such
as accidentally run over an endangered rock) during the cleanup, it will
be a relatively easy task to show where our hearts were at and that we
were indeed trying to do the right thing.
I suspect that the Sierra Club is smart enough to know that pointing
fingers at a group that is trying to do good things will result in their
ultimate demise. While there are radicals on both sides (your comments
below might lead one to believe that you are one of these) of the
issues, I believe them to be in the minority, and I am thankful that
they are.
It takes a wise person to understand that ultimately, those who's goals
are just will triumph. No matter what happens by bringing in the Sierra
Club (albeit perhaps only one or two members) and showing them how we
work together during the coves cleanup; the result will be positive.
It is easy for narrow minds on both sides of the issue to not trust the
other side. It is much more difficult to do the right thing always...
regardless of the potential consequences. In this case Steven, the
right thing is to clean up the coves and allow everyone who wants to
watch or participate, to do so. Consider this; even if we did not want
to include them, we cannot stop them. So why not invite them to
participate in the hopes that they will see how earnestly we are trying
to make amends for the ignorant slobs among our community who made the
mess at the coves in the first place?
I'll step down now... and allow you to comment if you wish. You stand
on a platform that is indefensible, and right next to you stand the
extremists from the other side. You fail to recognize that ultimately,
the plank you stand on will fail, and you will find yourself crumpled at
the bottom of a chasm with others of your kind while the rest of us
standing together above find a solution which good for everyone.
I look forward to your comments.
Kind Regards,
Joe West
-----Original Message-----
From: scramzilla [mailto:steven.c.forrester@l...]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:52 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
I don't care if the tree huggers comes to the cleanup or not. I still
believe she is a Trojan Horse and you naive wheelers will probably
end up with SC crap on your face. Hey! If I'm wrong, I'm wrong! But I
would not trust one of those whacked out suck heads as far as I could
kick them!
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
68549 From: Me Smith <wheelenx2@y...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 9:44am
Subject: Re: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
No, I am a wheeler who sees trouble on the horizon, and is willing to open his mind to others' way.
jimmy lambertus wrote:
Are you a member of the Sierra Club ?
Jim Lambertus
--- wheelenx2 wrote:
> > I am not going to Parker Splash this year and had
> planned to go out
> > with the VJC to do the Cove clean up. But not now.
> I'll do it
> > somewhere else with others that feel the same way.
>
> "I'm taking my toys and going home." Would have been
> a more direct
> way of getting your point across.
>
> And I say to you:
>
> Good, take your toys and your close minded "I won't
> even talk to the
> enemy" and leave the clean-ups to the adults. Your
> attitude will
> only serve to hurt the sport in the end.
>
> Grow Up a Little,
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
68550 From: Eric <parajeeper02@y...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:16am
Subject: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
-
Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer............
-- In az_vjc@y..., Me Smith <wheelenx2@y...> wrote:
>
> No, I am a wheeler who sees trouble on the horizon, and is willing
to open his mind to others' way.
> jimmy lambertus <jeepnazus@y...> wrote:Are you a member of the
Sierra Club ?
> Jim Lambertus
> --- wheelenx2 wrote:
> > > I am not going to Parker Splash this year and had
> > planned to go out
> > > with the VJC to do the Cove clean up. But not now.
> > I'll do it
> > > somewhere else with others that feel the same way.
> >
> > "I'm taking my toys and going home." Would have been
> > a more direct
> > way of getting your point across.
> >
> > And I say to you:
> >
> > Good, take your toys and your close minded "I won't
> > even talk to the
> > enemy" and leave the clean-ups to the adults. Your
> > attitude will
> > only serve to hurt the sport in the end.
> >
> > Grow Up a Little,
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
> http://webhosting.yahoo.com/
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
68551 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:16am
Subject: Part time 4WD TJ question
A friend I work with bought a used 2001 (or 2002) and this past weekend went up to Four Peaks to test the 4 wheel drive. It is a 4.0L automatic. When he engaged the transfer case into 4Hi the Part Time 4WD light came on. The question is: Is there such a thing as part time 4wd in a TJ? He went to the dealer and they said that only TJ's back east have full time 4WD. Is this a load of crap or what?
Joey K
93YJ
68552 From: scramzilla <steven.c.forrester@l...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:17am
Subject: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
You need to read all my threads....I have never said that they
(whoever) should not be included in any cleanup. The
"find yourself crumpled at the bottom of a chasm with others of your
kind while the rest of us standing together above find a solution
which good for everyone." part of your email is grandiose at the very
least. All this "stuff", for lack of a better word, is
opinion....nothing more.
I believe in keeping your friends close and your enemies closer, so
bring them to the cloves. I would never try to sway the weaker of the
SC members because they are NOT the ones running the show. I do my
fighting at the BLM meetings and in the courts. This is the land
issue battlefield of the 21st century and this is where the war will
be won or lost. Book it!
Zilla
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe West" <joe.west@s...> wrote:
> Steven,
>
> Unfortunately, this situation isn't quite as black and white as your
> email below might lead one to believe you think it is. Since we
live in
> a free society, the Sierra Club is completely free to come out and
watch
> us work.
> If they choose to try and point out something that we may do wrong
(such
> as accidentally run over an endangered rock) during the cleanup, it
will
> be a relatively easy task to show where our hearts were at and that
we
> were indeed trying to do the right thing.
>
> I suspect that the Sierra Club is smart enough to know that pointing
> fingers at a group that is trying to do good things will result in
their
> ultimate demise. While there are radicals on both sides (your
comments
> below might lead one to believe that you are one of these) of the
> issues, I believe them to be in the minority, and I am thankful that
> they are.
>
> It takes a wise person to understand that ultimately, those who's
goals
> are just will triumph. No matter what happens by bringing in the
Sierra
> Club (albeit perhaps only one or two members) and showing them how
we
> work together during the coves cleanup; the result will be positive.
>
> It is easy for narrow minds on both sides of the issue to not trust
the
> other side. It is much more difficult to do the right thing
always...
> regardless of the potential consequences. In this case Steven, the
> right thing is to clean up the coves and allow everyone who wants to
> watch or participate, to do so. Consider this; even if we did not
want
> to include them, we cannot stop them. So why not invite them to
> participate in the hopes that they will see how earnestly we are
trying
> to make amends for the ignorant slobs among our community who made
the
> mess at the coves in the first place?
>
> I'll step down now... and allow you to comment if you wish. You
stand
> on a platform that is indefensible, and right next to you stand the
> extremists from the other side. You fail to recognize that
ultimately,
> the plank you stand on will fail, and you will find yourself
crumpled at
> the bottom of a chasm with others of your kind while the rest of us
> standing together above find a solution which good for everyone.
>
> I look forward to your comments.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Joe West
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: scramzilla [mailto:steven.c.forrester@l...]
> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:52 AM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
>
> I don't care if the tree huggers comes to the cleanup or not. I
still
> believe she is a Trojan Horse and you naive wheelers will probably
> end up with SC crap on your face. Hey! If I'm wrong, I'm wrong! But
I
> would not trust one of those whacked out suck heads as far as I
could
> kick them!
68553 From: Joey Martinez <joey@w...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:17am
Subject: does anyone know the website for buying vjc shirts?
TIA
94xjoe
68554 From: Ray B. <KB7SKV@C...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:26am
Subject: Re: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
GUYS!!!! It's real simple. Invite her (them) they can come anyway so what's the debate about?? Weather it changes their mind, bolsters current thoughts, or does Nothing does NOT matter!! We're gonna clean the Coves, people are gonna watch, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion!! GIVE IT A REST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
See ya at the coves!
Our .02
Ray and Amanda
AZAV8ER
scramzilla wrote:
You need to read all my threads....I have never said that they (whoever) should not be included in any cleanup. The "find yourself crumpled at the bottom of a chasm with others of your kind while the rest of us standing together above find a solution which good for everyone." part of your email is grandiose at the very least. All this "stuff", for lack of a better word, is opinion....nothing more.
I believe in keeping your friends close and your enemies closer, so bring them to the cloves. I would never try to sway the weaker of the SC members because they are NOT the ones running the show. I do my fighting at the BLM meetings and in the courts. This is the land issue battlefield of the 21st century and this is where the war will be won or lost. Book it! Zilla
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe West" wrote:
Steven,
Unfortunately, this situation isn't quite as black and white as your
email below might lead one to believe you think it is. Since we
live in
a free society, the Sierra Club is completely free to come out and
watch
us work.
If they choose to try and point out something that we may do wrong
(such
as accidentally run over an endangered rock) during the cleanup, it
will
be a relatively easy task to show where our hearts were at and that
we
were indeed trying to do the right thing.
I suspect that the Sierra Club is smart enough to know that pointing
fingers at a group that is trying to do good things will result in
their
ultimate demise. While there are radicals on both sides (your
comments
below might lead one to believe that you are one of these) of the
issues, I believe them to be in the minority, and I am thankful that
they are.
It takes a wise person to understand that ultimately, those who's
goals
are just will triumph. No matter what happens by bringing in the
Sierra
Club (albeit perhaps only one or two members) and showing them how
we
work together during the coves cleanup; the result will be positive.
It is easy for narrow minds on both sides of the issue to not trust
the
other side. It is much more difficult to do the right thing
always...
regardless of the potential consequences. In this case Steven, the
right thing is to clean up the coves and allow everyone who wants to
watch or participate, to do so. Consider this; even if we did not
want
to include them, we cannot stop them. So why not invite them to
participate in the hopes that they will see how earnestly we are
trying
to make amends for the ignorant slobs among our community who made
the
mess at the coves in the first place?
I'll step down now... and allow you to comment if you wish. You
stand
on a platform that is indefensible, and right next to you stand the
extremists from the other side. You fail to recognize that
ultimately,
the plank you stand on will fail, and you will find yourself
crumpled at
the bottom of a chasm with others of your kind while the rest of us
standing together above find a solution which good for everyone.
I look forward to your comments.
Kind Regards,
Joe West -----Original Message-----
From: scramzilla [mailto:steven.c.forrester@l...] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:52 AM
To: az_vjc@y...
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
I don't care if the tree huggers comes to the cleanup or not. I
still
believe she is a Trojan Horse and you naive wheelers will probably end up with SC crap on your face. Hey! If I'm wrong, I'm wrong! But
I
would not trust one of those whacked out suck heads as far as I
could
kick them!
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
68555 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:23am
Subject: Re: does anyone know the website for buying vjc shirts?
http://www.cafeshops.com/cp/store.aspx?s=azvjc
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joey Martinez" <joey@w...> wrote:
> TIA
>
> 94xjoe
68556 From: Forrester, Steven C <steven.c.forrester@l...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:27am
Subject: RE: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
Look Ray. If this thread is to upsetting for you then DON'T READ IT! I don't believe anyone is getting upset here......well maybe you. I want to hear all sides of this issue. I like to know how people think with regards to the earth cookies. People have been telling me how they feel and I have been giving my 2 cents...nothing more....nothing less.
Zilla
-----Original Message-----
From: Ray B. [mailto:kb7skv@cybertrails.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 1:27 PM
To: scramzilla
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
GUYS!!!! It's real simple. Invite her (them) they can come anyway so what's the debate about?? Weather it changes their mind, bolsters current thoughts, or does Nothing does NOT matter!! We're gonna clean the Coves, people are gonna watch, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion!! GIVE IT A REST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
See ya at the coves!
Our .02
Ray and Amanda
AZAV8ER
scramzilla wrote:
You need to read all my threads....I have never said that they (whoever) should not be included in any cleanup. The "find yourself crumpled at the bottom of a chasm with others of your kind while the rest of us standing together above find a solution which good for everyone." part of your email is grandiose at the very least. All this "stuff", for lack of a better word, is opinion....nothing more.
I believe in keeping your friends close and your enemies closer, so bring them to the cloves. I would never try to sway the weaker of the SC members because they are NOT the ones running the show. I do my fighting at the BLM meetings and in the courts. This is the land issue battlefield of the 21st century and this is where the war will be won or lost. Book it! Zilla
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe West" wrote:
Steven,
Unfortunately, this situation isn't quite as black and white as your
email below might lead one to believe you think it is. Since we
live in
a free society, the Sierra Club is completely free to come out and
watch
us work.
If they choose to try and point out something that we may do wrong
(such
as accidentally run over an endangered rock) during the cleanup, it
will
be a relatively easy task to show where our hearts were at and that
we
were indeed trying to do the right thing.
I suspect that the Sierra Club is smart enough to know that pointing
fingers at a group that is trying to do good things will result in
their
ultimate demise. While there are radicals on both sides (your
comments
below might lead one to believe that you are one of these) of the
issues, I believe them to be in the minority, and I am thankful that
they are.
It takes a wise person to understand that ultimately, those who's
goals
are just will triumph. No matter what happens by bringing in the
Sierra
Club (albeit perhaps only one or two members) and showing them how
we
work together during the coves cleanup; the result will be positive.
It is easy for narrow minds on both sides of the issue to not trust
the
other side. It is much more difficult to do the right thing
always...
regardless of the potential consequences. In this case Steven, the
right thing is to clean up the coves and allow everyone who wants to
watch or participate, to do so. Consider this; even if we did not
want
to include them, we cannot stop them. So why not invite them to
participate in the hopes that they will see how earnestly we are
trying
to make amends for the ignorant slobs among our community who made
the
mess at the coves in the first place?
I'll step down now... and allow you to comment if you wish. You
stand
on a platform that is indefensible, and right next to you stand the
extremists from the other side. You fail to recognize that
ultimately,
the plank you stand on will fail, and you will find yourself
crumpled at
the bottom of a chasm with others of your kind while the rest of us
standing together above find a solution which good for everyone.
I look forward to your comments.
Kind Regards,
Joe West -----Original Message-----
From: scramzilla [mailto:steven.c.forrester@l...] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:52 AM
To: az_vjc@y...
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
I don't care if the tree huggers comes to the cleanup or not. I
still
believe she is a Trojan Horse and you naive wheelers will probably end up with SC crap on your face. Hey! If I'm wrong, I'm wrong! But
I
would not trust one of those whacked out suck heads as far as I
could
kick them!
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
68557 From: Mike Beach <mikebeach2002@y...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:28am
Subject: FS: 33" MTR spares 40each$
hey all,
Ive got 3 MTR's with pretty decent tread left on em. They could be used as great spares. 40$ each, shoot me an e-mail or call 602-405-4606.
Mike
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
68558 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:29am
Subject: RE: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
calm down man. remember last time you got riled up!! :) LOL
Joey K
93YJ
-----Original Message-----
From: Ray B. [mailto:KB7SKV@CYBERTRAILS.COM]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:27 AM
To: scramzilla
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
GUYS!!!! It's real simple. Invite her (them) they can come anyway so what's the debate about?? Weather it changes their mind, bolsters current thoughts, or does Nothing does NOT matter!! We're gonna clean the Coves, people are gonna watch, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion!! GIVE IT A REST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
See ya at the coves!
Our .02
Ray and Amanda
AZAV8ER
scramzilla wrote:
You need to read all my threads....I have never said that they (whoever) should not be included in any cleanup. The "find yourself crumpled at the bottom of a chasm with others of your kind while the rest of us standing together above find a solution which good for everyone." part of your email is grandiose at the very least. All this "stuff", for lack of a better word, is opinion....nothing more.
I believe in keeping your friends close and your enemies closer, so bring them to the cloves. I would never try to sway the weaker of the SC members because they are NOT the ones running the show. I do my fighting at the BLM meetings and in the courts. This is the land issue battlefield of the 21st century and this is where the war will be won or lost. Book it! Zilla
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe West" wrote:
Steven,
Unfortunately, this situation isn't quite as black and white as your
email below might lead one to believe you think it is. Since we
live in
a free society, the Sierra Club is completely free to come out and
watch
us work.
If they choose to try and point out something that we may do wrong
(such
as accidentally run over an endangered rock) during the cleanup, it
will
be a relatively easy task to show where our hearts were at and that
we
were indeed trying to do the right thing.
I suspect that the Sierra Club is smart enough to know that pointing
fingers at a group that is trying to do good things will result in
their
ultimate demise. While there are radicals on both sides (your
comments
below might lead one to believe that you are one of these) of the
issues, I believe them to be in the minority, and I am thankful that
they are.
It takes a wise person to understand that ultimately, those who's
goals
are just will triumph. No matter what happens by bringing in the
Sierra
Club (albeit perhaps only one or two members) and showing them how
we
work together during the coves cleanup; the result will be positive.
It is easy for narrow minds on both sides of the issue to not trust
the
other side. It is much more difficult to do the right thing
always...
regardless of the potential consequences. In this case Steven, the
right thing is to clean up the coves and allow everyone who wants to
watch or participate, to do so. Consider this; even if we did not
want
to include them, we cannot stop them. So why not invite them to
participate in the hopes that they will see how earnestly we are
trying
to make amends for the ignorant slobs among our community who made
the
mess at the coves in the first place?
I'll step down now... and allow you to comment if you wish. You
stand
on a platform that is indefensible, and right next to you stand the
extremists from the other side. You fail to recognize that
ultimately,
the plank you stand on will fail, and you will find yourself
crumpled at
the bottom of a chasm with others of your kind while the rest of us
standing together above find a solution which good for everyone.
I look forward to your comments.
Kind Regards,
Joe West -----Original Message-----
From: scramzilla [mailto:steven.c.forrester@l...] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:52 AM
To: az_vjc@y...
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
I don't care if the tree huggers comes to the cleanup or not. I
still
believe she is a Trojan Horse and you naive wheelers will probably end up with SC crap on your face. Hey! If I'm wrong, I'm wrong! But
I
would not trust one of those whacked out suck heads as far as I
could
kick them!
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
68559 From: FredTJ <fredtj@c...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:36am
Subject: Re: Part time 4WD TJ question
All TJ's are "part time 4 wheel drive"... The only time that they are in 4 wheel drive, is when the xfer case is shifted into 4hi or 4lo.
The "dealer" (person) that he talked to, doesn't know what they are talking about.
Cheers,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: DesertJeep
To: 'AzVJC'
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:16 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Part time 4WD TJ question
A friend I work with bought a used 2001 (or 2002) and this past weekend went up to Four Peaks to test the 4 wheel drive. It is a 4.0L automatic. When he engaged the transfer case into 4Hi the Part Time 4WD light came on. The question is: Is there such a thing as part time 4wd in a TJ? He went to the dealer and they said that only TJ's back east have full time 4WD. Is this a load of crap or what?
Joey K
93YJ
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
68560 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:40am
Subject: RE: Part time 4WD TJ question
True, but the light should be on all the time and go off or change to full time when shifted to 4hi or 4lo.
Joey K
-----Original Message-----
From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:36 AM
To: DesertJeep; 'AzVJC'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Part time 4WD TJ question
All TJ's are "part time 4 wheel drive"... The only time that they are in 4 wheel drive, is when the xfer case is shifted into 4hi or 4lo.
The "dealer" (person) that he talked to, doesn't know what they are talking about.
Cheers,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: DesertJeep
To: 'AzVJC'
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:16 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Part time 4WD TJ question
A friend I work with bought a used 2001 (or 2002) and this past weekend went up to Four Peaks to test the 4 wheel drive. It is a 4.0L automatic. When he engaged the transfer case into 4Hi the Part Time 4WD light came on. The question is: Is there such a thing as part time 4wd in a TJ? He went to the dealer and they said that only TJ's back east have full time 4WD. Is this a load of crap or what?
Joey K
93YJ
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
68561 From: Joe Kearney <Joe-CJ7@j...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:41am
Subject: Re: Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
So Dan,
What do the Aunt Suzie's knitting club women look like?
I will take one in my Jeep.
<GRIN>
Joe Kearney
Joe-CJ7@J...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Schwartz" <azdanimal@e...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:04 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
> I have been watching this conversation for several days now. All I have
to
> say is, I will have an extra seat in my jeep that is available to anyone
who
> wants to help clean the coves. I don't care if they are with the sierra
> club or aunt suzies knitting club. I care for the environment and want to
> clean it up. Invite the everyone you can think of and lets clean the
coves.
>
> Remember the old saying "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"
>
> Dan Schwartz
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Jacques [mailto:bjacques@m...]
> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:44 AM
> To: 'Joe West'; 'scramzilla'
> Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
>
>
> Just a small caveat here, IF the SC folks do attend, as I think they will.
> And IF they honestly join in, work, and enjoy the newfound camaraderie of
> the AzVJC, as I hope they will. And IF both groups can leave the politics
> and sidewalk psychology out of the equation, at least for the day, then we
> must make sure that we collectively control ourselves to make sure this is
a
> win-win situation and the Coves get cleaned up ! And possibly... just
> possibly... both groups can come away with a little better understanding
of
> all viewpoints...
>
> Bob Jacques
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe West [mailto:joe.west@s...]
> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:16 AM
> To: 'scramzilla'
> Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
>
>
> Steven,
>
> Unfortunately, this situation isn't quite as black and white as your
> email below might lead one to believe you think it is. Since we live in
> a free society, the Sierra Club is completely free to come out and watch
> us work.
> If they choose to try and point out something that we may do wrong (such
> as accidentally run over an endangered rock) during the cleanup, it will
> be a relatively easy task to show where our hearts were at and that we
> were indeed trying to do the right thing.
>
> I suspect that the Sierra Club is smart enough to know that pointing
> fingers at a group that is trying to do good things will result in their
> ultimate demise. While there are radicals on both sides (your comments
> below might lead one to believe that you are one of these) of the
> issues, I believe them to be in the minority, and I am thankful that
> they are.
>
> It takes a wise person to understand that ultimately, those who's goals
> are just will triumph. No matter what happens by bringing in the Sierra
> Club (albeit perhaps only one or two members) and showing them how we
> work together during the coves cleanup; the result will be positive.
>
> It is easy for narrow minds on both sides of the issue to not trust the
> other side. It is much more difficult to do the right thing always...
> regardless of the potential consequences. In this case Steven, the
> right thing is to clean up the coves and allow everyone who wants to
> watch or participate, to do so. Consider this; even if we did not want
> to include them, we cannot stop them. So why not invite them to
> participate in the hopes that they will see how earnestly we are trying
> to make amends for the ignorant slobs among our community who made the
> mess at the coves in the first place?
>
> I'll step down now... and allow you to comment if you wish. You stand
> on a platform that is indefensible, and right next to you stand the
> extremists from the other side. You fail to recognize that ultimately,
> the plank you stand on will fail, and you will find yourself crumpled at
> the bottom of a chasm with others of your kind while the rest of us
> standing together above find a solution which good for everyone.
>
> I look forward to your comments.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Joe West
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: scramzilla [mailto:steven.c.forrester@l...]
> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:52 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Sierra Club at Coves cleanup
>
> I don't care if the tree huggers comes to the cleanup or not. I still
> believe she is a Trojan Horse and you naive wheelers will probably
> end up with SC crap on your face. Hey! If I'm wrong, I'm wrong! But I
> would not trust one of those whacked out suck heads as far as I could
> kick them!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
68562 From: FredTJ <fredtj@c...>
Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:49am
Subject: Re: Part time 4WD TJ question
The "4wd light" only comes on (at least in '97 ~ '99 TJ's that I've seen), when the xfer case is shifted into either 4hi or 4lo.
:)
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: DesertJeep
To: 'FredTJ' ; 'AzVJC'
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Part time 4WD TJ question
True, but the light should be on all the time and go off or change to full time when shifted to 4hi or 4lo.
Joey K
-----Original Message-----
From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:36 AM
To: DesertJeep; 'AzVJC'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Part time 4WD TJ question
All TJ's are "part time 4 wheel drive"... The only time that they are in 4 wheel drive, is when the xfer case is shifted into 4hi or 4lo.
The "dealer" (person) that he talked to, doesn't know what they are talking about.
Cheers,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: DesertJeep
To: 'AzVJC'
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:16 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Part time 4WD TJ question
A friend I work with bought a used 2001 (or 2002) and this past weekend went up to Four Peaks to test the 4 wheel drive. It is a 4.0L automatic. When he engaged the transfer case into 4Hi the Part Time 4WD light came on. The question is: Is there such a thing as part time 4wd in a TJ? He went to the dealer and they said that only TJ's back east have full time 4WD. Is this a load of crap or what?
Joey K
93YJ
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.