blooddrive
01-06-2004, 05:57 AM
68388-68412
68388 From: Bill Mish <yldkat55@h...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:21pm
Subject: Re: Re: 4-wheelers plight
Yup.
Actually, it's Neal Han**** spearheading this... all the sudden I realize he
hasn't posted much and I'm out here all alone..... Well, at least Jose' is
still here with me.......
Just remember, Anarchy is great until the guerilla fighters pick you off one
by one....
Joe West, Shame on you!
Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Towle" <James.Towle@a...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 3:50 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: 4-wheelers plight
>
> The way I understand Bill's message it indirectly addresses your
> problem.
>
> Until and unless more people get directly involved (via an organized
> club), then concerns like yours won't be addressed. Not that their
> lack of organization is excusable but, they don't have this valueable
> input to build on.
>
> --James
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Scott Kruize" <skruize@c...> wrote:
> > I see one big problem with the ASA. A couple years ago I joined.
> > Somewhere along the way my membership expired and I never received
> any
> > kind of renewal notice. So I probably haven't been an ASA member
> for at
> > least 2 years. I guess if they really wanted to boost their numbers
> they
> > could send out a renewal notice to at least keep their existing
> members.
> >
> >
> > Scott K
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
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68389 From: azredrocker <gotrox@c...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:10pm
Subject: Re: 4-wheelers plight
Bill? Did I miss something?
Neal
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Bill Mish" <yldkat55@h...> wrote:
> You're just jealous cuz I'm bald and so damn handsome!
>
> Bill Mish
> 1955 Willys CJ3B
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "James Towle" <James.Towle@a...>
> To: <az_vjc@y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 3:39 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: 4-wheelers plight
>
>
> >
> > Still angry? Who me? I still see your messages, when they are on
the
> > board. lol.... <truce>
> >
> > Was that you I passed? I thought that big ol' tan thing on the
> > trailer looked familiar.
> >
> > --James
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Bill Mish" <yldkat55@h...> wrote:
> > >
> > > BTW, my messages to you are still rejected, are you still angry
> > with me
> > > about something?
> > > It's not because I didn't wave to you Sunday on the Highway,
is it?
> > > Heheehee!!
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
68390 From: <gotrox@c...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:18pm
Subject: 4-wheelers plight
No need to change the VJC. There are plenty of clubs that are part of ASA4WDC. If you don't want to be part of an organized club, no big deal, that's your decision. The great thing about freedom is you get to make your own decisions based on your individual experiences, wants and needs. If the ASA4WDC lets say put together a Meet and Greet the club, where you could see and talk to people would you go? I think most would! Then maybe go and do a run with the club you think you might fit in with. It doesn't mean you have to give up the VJC and what it stands for. We all have something to offer the 4wheeling communittee, some may want to express it on a different level or other forums. Like Bill Mish stated, its what you bring to the table, not what your going to get.
Neal Han****,
Arizona Rock Crawlers/VJC
68391 From: Rich <az_xj@y...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:27pm
Subject: RAY B.
Rich here,
I got your email but my Yahoo email doesn't work right.I can not send
from it.(only God knows why) anyway, I am the one who was trying to
get the pics from that Martinez run but I have still been
unsuccessful. Now that I have internet I can keep you guys updated.
Rich
(AZ-XJ)
68392 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:44pm
Subject: Re: AZ_VJC Splinter Clubs... was RE: Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure
Thats disagreeable
On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 03:30 PM, jeepin_in_az wrote:
> Damn Chris! Can you agree to give me some money??? :)
>
> Mike Baney
>
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...> wrote:
>> I agree with Joe too
>>
>> On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 10:59 AM, Joe West wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Scott,
>>>
>>> I agree with you... I believe that it would be difficult to
> garner many
>>> people from the azvjc into an organized club.
>>>
>>> The good news is that people have successfully created splinter
> clubs
>>> from the Azvjc... I can think of at least three clubs who began
> from
>>> the
>>> Azvjc and I suspect that there are many more.
>>>
>>> The AZVJC must be left as it is... while there are some who whine
> about
>>> off-topic posts and
> ignorant/arrogant/stupid/argumentative/violent/(you
>>> get the point) posts from the Azvjc list; they have an option if
> they
>>> don't like it:
>>>
>>> They quit.
>>>
>>> This is an excellent solution for those who don't like whatever
> the
>>> current incarnation of the Azvjc is. Our club, unorganized as it
> is,
>>> is
>>> infinitely better than any organized club in existence (this is my
>>> opinion of course). We have the best of all worlds and while
> sometimes
>>> it takes a thick skin to survive here... most, including myself,
>>> thrive.
>>>
>>> I'm sure we'll soon have some tearful pleading that we organize
> the
>>> Azvjc... (it has been at least 6 months since the last major
>>> "organization" attempt), those who long for a "real" club should
> do as
>>> others have done and start your own club.
>>>
>>> The only drawback to the splinter groups is that we loose some
> very
>>> knowledgeable talent when this happens... it is sad to see some
> of our
>>> members leave, but it is for the best if they do not like things
> here.
>>> Sometimes people who create splinter clubs find the time to stay
> on
>>> with
>>> the Azvjc; and this is truly the best of all worlds.
>>>
>>> As far as the exposure topic goes... if you want exposure for our
> club,
>>> all you need to do is pick a subject matter (trail upkeep, adopt a
>>> highway, take supplies to Payson for the fire relief fund, coves
>>> cleanup, etc.) and run with it.
>>> You get an opportunity to be a leader, and try out your skills as
> a
>>> promoter for your pet project, whatever it may be.
>>>
>>> Note to splinter clubs:
>>>
>>> If you would like to let everyone know about your organized club,
> now
>>> would be a good time to increase your ranks if you so choose.
> Shoot
>>> the
>>> list your club name and contact information (President, etc) so
> that
>>> Azvjc members who wish to join an organized club can find you. I
>>> realize that a few of the Azvjc splinter clubs are exclusive by
>>> invitation only and those clubs obviously won't want to respond
> to this
>>> request.
>>>
>>> Long live Anarchy in the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club!
>>>
>>> Joe West
>>> Certified Public Anarchist
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is no way all of the list members would join the organized
> club.
>>> I'm betting you'd be lucky to get 10%. Really lucky.
>>>
>>> I like the AZVJC the way it is. Despite some of the arguments
> I've seen
>>> I have seen more AZVJC members at the land use meetings than all
> the
>>> organized clubs combined. I have seen the AZVJC get more exposure
> than
>>> any other club.
>>>
>>> Like always, those that desire more can form a club or join an
> existing
>>> one. The AZVJC has always been more of an information exchange
> than a
>>> true club anyway. Its working wonderfully as is. Why screw that
> up?
>>>
>>> Scott K
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
68393 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:47pm
Subject: Re: Re: New poll for az_vjc
Agreed
On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 03:30 PM, Bill Mish wrote:
> SHEEP!!!!!!!!
> Hahahahahahaha!
> Just kidding :P
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
>> To: "Joe-CJ7" <Joe-CJ7@j...>
>> CC: "jeepin_in_az" <jeepin_in_az@y...>, <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
>> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: New poll for az_vjc
>> Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:26:04 -0700
>>
>> I agree with his agreeing
>>
>> On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 02:52 PM, Joe-CJ7 wrote:
>>
>>> I agree 100%!!!!
>>>
>>> Joe Kearney
>>> Joe-CJ7@J...
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: jeepin_in_az [mailto:jeepin_in_az@y...]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 12:31 PM
>>> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: New poll for az_vjc
>>>
>>> The AZVJC will NEVER join the ASA4WDC because we are an un-organised
>>> club. The VJC will NEVER organise.....That is a good thing.
>>>
>>> Mike Baney
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Leonard Garcia" <leonardg@a...> wrote:
>>>> Or "No, but I would like AzVJC to join"
>>>>
>>>> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe West" <joe.west@s...> wrote:
>>>>> There's no case for the obvious:
>>>>>
>>>>> No, but I would like to join
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe West
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: az_vjc@y... [mailto:az_vjc@y...]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 10:20 AM
>>>>> To: az_vjc@y...
>>>>> Subject: [az_vjc] New poll for az_vjc
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
>>>>> az_vjc group:
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you belong to ASA4WDC?
>>>>> This is just an informational poll.
>>>>> Names won't be seen. I would like the
>>>>> entire group to give some feedback on
>>>>> this. If there are catagories I missed,
>>>>> I apologize.
>>>>>
>>>>> o Yes, I purchased an individual membership
>>>>> o Yes, I belong through another club
>>>>> o No, I don't care to join
>>>>> o No, I don't know nothing about ASA4WDC
>>>>> o No, I don't live in Az
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To vote, please visit the following web page:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/surveys?id=993003
>>>>>
>>>>> Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
>>>>> not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo!
>>> Groups
>>>>> web site listed above.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
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68394 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:54pm
Subject: Re: 4-wheelers plight
Hey! That's my line!
Copycat!
:-P
I personally agree with organizing cause I can never find the tools I'm
looking for and the parts I bought last week seem to not be where I
thought I left them.
On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 03:31 PM, Scott Kruize wrote:
> I agree with Joey.
>
> Scott K
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DesertJeep [mailto:joey@d...]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 11:56 AM
> To: 'Bill Mish'; 'Stu Olson'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; gotrox@c...
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight
>
>
> What about the another approach... Why couldn't ASA4WDC make an
> addendum
> or exception to their rules to accept us (AzVJC) as we are and invite
> us
> as a member. I would think that with the strength we have shown it
> might
> be in there best interest to do so. I really think the only thing we
> would have to do is nominate and vote for a representative(s) to speak
> for AzVJC at ASA4WDC meetings.
>
> Now whether this will prevent another fiasco like this years Jamboree,
> I
> doubt it but you never know.
>
> Truth be told I can care less what people, groups and clubs or the
> general public think of AzVJC. As long as we are morally doing the
> right
> thing and teach good practices by example I don't have a problem being
> part of AzVJC.
>
> Joey K
> 93YJ
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Mish [mailto:yldkat55@h...]
> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 11:13 PM
> To: Stu Olson; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; gotrox@c...
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight
>
>
> Actually Stu, it is my hope that collectively we can have a larger
> voice
> in the 4 wheeling arena, Right now, we simply aren't part of the
> process
> unless we choose to be as individuals. Politicians listen to the voice
> of one voter, they HEAR the voice of 2000 voters. I'm sure in your life
> experience you may have found the same to be true. Although we may not
> be talking about the formal arena of politics, 1 management agency may
> more closely scrutinize the actions of an employee, of an RMP or land
> use decision knowing that there are 2000 people strong behind that
> voice
> in a meeting room.
>
> The answer to some of your questions by the way, might be "NO", perhaps
> time will tell you the answer to these since you have joined a club.
> Personally, I think it may make you a more informed and EFFECTIVE
> voice.
> Besides, who said anything about making you a better 4 wheeler? Maybe
> You need to make THEM better! I think in your case Stu, you'd be better
> off thinking along the lines of what you yourself are bringing to the
> table, and not what you are going to get to eat!
>
> What good would it have done if we had been a club?
> Maybe you would have been the ASA4WDC delegate to remember to ask if
> Jamboree things were cleared with the National Guard? Private land
> owners? conflicting events, etc.
>
> The fact that we are not more organized seems to make it easier for
> those who wish to do nothing to continue to do so. It also makes it
> EXTREMELY easy for those who are supposed to "Represent" us as
> "Individuals" to become a little more "Comfy" in their lack of effort.
>
> It's human nature when you are part of a "team effort" to pitch in and
> do your share.(And also encourage others to join in).
>
> There are those among us to which this 4 wheeling thing is just a fad,
> like CB radios were or whatever, and that when it's no longer "Cool"
> will sell their Jeeps, that's fine. But for those people who put forth
> a
> serious effort to build their Jeeps into truly capable off road
> machines, I say it might not be a bad idea to put as much effort into
> making sure there's a place for you to enjoy it as you did to build it.
> Organized 4 wheeling gives some people that capability. I recognize a
> need for it now more than ever, and feel perhaps I should try to
> convince others to feel the same way.
>
> I know I didn't come near close to answering everything you had
> questions about, but hopefully it helps.
>
> Ohh yeah, no flame war here either Stu, we both know where the other is
> coming from, (although I may not be as eloquent) and I respect your
> input.
>
> Bill Mish
> 1955 Willys CJ3B
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
> To: "'Bill Mish'" <yldkat55@h...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>;
> <gotrox@c...>
> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 9:29 PM
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight
>
>
>> Bill, you bring up a good point.....and one that I have been thinking
>> about during the past week or two.
>>
>> A couple of weeks ago, I joined an ASA4WDC affiliated club here in the
>
>> area. So now, I am a card carrying certified member of the ASA4WDC,
>> etc.
>>
>> However....the recent BLM land scoping meetings I attended had nothing
>
>> to do with the fact that I was a club member. I stood up at both
>> meetings and "had my day in court", so to speak. My comments went on
>> record and from what I could tell, my input had no more nor no less
>> weight than anyone else that spoke.
>>
>> This is my question, after thinking about all of these things over the
>
>> past week. Will being an official club member cause me to make better
>
>> comments at a land use meeting? Will it cause me to write more or
>> better draft review comments on BLM management plans? Will I pick up
>> more trash on the trail and bring it home with me? Will I attend more
>
>> trail cleanups than I did before becoming an official member? Will I
>> be able to better help new off-roaders learn the ropes by being a club
>
>> member?
>>
>> In my opinion, I can do everyone one of the above things just as
>> effectively as an individual as I can being a sanctioned club member.
>> In fact....I did everyone one of those things, many times over, as an
>> individual and un-member of the highly unorganized AZVJC.
>>
>> Now....don't get me wrong.....I am NOT against anyone joining a club
>> in order to support our 4 wheelin' hobby (if I were, I would not have
>> done it myself, right?).
>>
>> So....I am not trying to start a flame war here....but just trying to
>> figure out if being a club member is really going to turn people into
>> better off-roaders than they already are. If the answers to all of
>> those questions above is yes, then I guess we need to make the AZVJC
>> an official ASA4WDC affiliated club.
>>
>> Thinking more on this.....I suppose there is something to be said when
>
>> you can tell a land management agency that you have 2100 club members
>> who don't want a trail closed. However.....if we go the organized
>> route and we charge dues (so that we can support the ASA and such), do
>
>> you really think we are going to have 2100 dues paying members?
>> Not.....I think we will have 20 or 30 or 40 or maybe even
>> 50.....and.....we will have a LOT of people that still wheel together
>> on the weekends, just like they have been doing for the past few
>> years....and they won't belong to any club.
>>
>> I guess some of this is idle thinking that I have put into words.
>> What I really want to see is more and more people become active in
>> land management issues.....I want to see them attending
> meetings....writing
>> letters.....complaining to the higher ups about Fransisco.....etc.
> If
>> being a club will make that happen, then I am all for it. But deep
>> down inside, I don't see more involvement from the people because we
>> want them to belong to a club.
>>
>> On the flip side, you mentioned that in spite of all of the good and
>> worthy things that the AZVJC did this past year, " they were hardly
>> enough to keep us from being where we are in regards to the Jamboree
>> and land issues
>> in the Florence Junction area." So I ask you....what difference
> would
>> any of this have made if we HAD been a club? Hell.....some of were
> even
>> on TV (because we weren't in a club?) (please, no leather shorts
> jokes!)
>>
>>
>> The way I see it, the people that have the most to lose are the people
>
>> who really love this sport.....and the way I see it, those that really
>
>> do love this sport are already doing a lot of things to help prevent
>> that from happening. The other folks are just sitting on the
>> sidelines and enjoying the fruits of the labor of those that really do
>
>> care.....and we know who those folks are, true?
>>
>> Anyone else have comments?
>>
>> Stu
>> AZVJC / Arizona Lo Rangers / AZJC
>>
>> Stu Olson
>> www.stu-offroad.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bill Mish [mailto:yldkat55@h...]
>> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 9:10 PM
>> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; gotrox@c...
>> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight
>>
>> I have resisted organization in the past, but now more than ever it
>> seems to make perfect sense.
>> Think about all the efforts put forth by this group in the last year,
>> and
>> although they had impact, and were very worthy, they were hardly
> enough
>> to
>> keep us from being where we are in regards to the Jamboree and land
>> issues in the Florence Junction area. That's pretty sad not only for
>> me, but for
>> allot of other people who attended the event.
>>
>> I saw allot of AZVJC people and stickers out there. Could it be that
>> we were the largest group of participants?
>> If so, then perhaps we have the most to lose.
>>
>> With the quality of people in this group, and their level of
>> commitment to bettering our sport and public image, I think it would
>> be a good choice. Especially if it means regaining control of the
>> direction our sport is going.
>>
>>
>> Bill Mish
>> 1955 Willys CJ3B
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <gotrox@c...>
>> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 8:24 PM
>> Subject: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight
>>
>>
>> After talking to Francisco Mendoza on Saturday, seeing first hand the
>> events that transpired with the BLM, AZ Fish and Game, and the
>> Sheriff, I and several others, came to the same conclusion:
>>
>> We are in trouble!!
>>
>> I couldn't help but wonder if the AZVJC would be willing to risk
>> losing any ground to 'wheel on over something as simple as a little
>> more structured approach in maintaining our hobby.
>>
>> It has been stated time and time again in this group about
>> "Organization" being a losing battle. I think we "4wheelers" need to
>> be more organized in
>> our fight. Now I know what some of you are going to say right off the
>> get
>> go. But if we plan to enjoy this sport that we all partake in, then
> this
>> organization of interests and efforts needs to happen. I'm not saying
>> that the AZVJC needs to become an incorporated body, but belonging to
> ASA4WDC
>> will help. You can belong to other clubs that are part of ASA4WDC.
> Many
>> of
>> us are already members indirectly through a 4WD club, but membership
> can
>> be
>> individual too. My point is that we need to collectively show our
>> support and share one voice through the ASA4WDC - to keep the freedom
>> that we enjoy
>> as far as using public lands. If everyone waits for the next guy or
>> next
>> club to make our case with the land departments, we'll lose any
> progress
>> we've made to keep our trails open.
>>
>> As far as the trails that were being closed this weekend - Jawbreaker
>> was closed by the BLM - this came from Francisco Mendoza himself.
>> Martinez, Overdose, Bad Medicine and Brake Line - those were closed by
>
>> the ASA4WDC due
>> to private land owner liability issues. Whether we agree or not, it
> was
>> ASA4WDC's decision, aiming to prevent more land issues with the BLM
>> about traveling over private property.
>>
>> Are you all sure this is acceptable to you?
>>
>> Was there something that could have been done, but wasn't?
>>
>> Perhaps there is a way to become more actively involved in the
>> ASA4WDC, to ensure our voice is heard, and not just called on for
>> "Land issue" meetings
>> when they need a sea of red shirts.
>>
>> After seeing so many AZVJC stickers at the Jamboree, it seems like we
>> have alot to lose here.
>>
>> I'm sure I will be flamed for bringing up this issue of organization,
>> but I will endure all that because I believe the topic must be
>> seriously discussed
>> to ensure that we cover all perspectives and ultimately achieve a
>> collective
>> voice to fight for our rights as 4 wheelers and access to our land.
>>
>> Neal Han****
>> Arizona Rock Crawlers / AZVJC
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
68395 From: Joe West <joe.west@s...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 5:07pm
Subject: RE: Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a plea
I'd be happy to host a "Swap your rectangular headlights for round
headlights" technical workshop...
<grin>
-----Original Message-----
From: DesertJeep [mailto:joey@d...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 3:39 PM
To: 'Chris Krieg'; 'purple'
Cc: 'roy95yj'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a
plea
I up for that! You think Joe could gather all the required parts so we
could have it done in an evening at his house? ;)
Joey K
93YJ
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 2:47 PM
To: purple
Cc: roy95yj; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a
plea
Actually, a motor swap clinic would be fun.
On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 01:04 PM, purple wrote:
> Thanks again for the kill switch help Joe , and tell Joyce thanks for
> watching my son Dillon . He loved your orange cat . Can we have a
> motor swap clinic next ?? ( just kidding ....)
> Thanks again ,
> Purple .
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: roy95yj [mailto:roy95yj@y...]
> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 7:05 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a plea
>
>
>>
> Joe,
> What more can I say that hasn't already been said,,, Thanks for
> putting on the clinic.
>
> Thanks to everyone who helped.
>
> There is one thing, next time we need some younger jeepers with good
> eyes, we're getting to old to see some of the small wiring.
>
>
>
> Roy
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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68396 From: Joe West <joe.west@s...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 5:07pm
Subject: RE: AZ_VJC Splinter Clubs... was RE: Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure
I agree with Chris' disagreeing ;)
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 4:45 PM
To: jeepin_in_az
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: AZ_VJC Splinter Clubs... was RE: [az_vjc] Re: ---------Idea
on VJC Club exposure
Thats disagreeable
On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 03:30 PM, jeepin_in_az wrote:
> Damn Chris! Can you agree to give me some money??? :)
>
> Mike Baney
>
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...> wrote:
>> I agree with Joe too
>>
>> On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 10:59 AM, Joe West wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Scott,
>>>
>>> I agree with you... I believe that it would be difficult to
> garner many
>>> people from the azvjc into an organized club.
>>>
>>> The good news is that people have successfully created splinter
> clubs
>>> from the Azvjc... I can think of at least three clubs who began
> from
>>> the
>>> Azvjc and I suspect that there are many more.
>>>
>>> The AZVJC must be left as it is... while there are some who whine
> about
>>> off-topic posts and
> ignorant/arrogant/stupid/argumentative/violent/(you
>>> get the point) posts from the Azvjc list; they have an option if
> they
>>> don't like it:
>>>
>>> They quit.
>>>
>>> This is an excellent solution for those who don't like whatever
> the
>>> current incarnation of the Azvjc is. Our club, unorganized as it
> is,
>>> is
>>> infinitely better than any organized club in existence (this is my
>>> opinion of course). We have the best of all worlds and while
> sometimes
>>> it takes a thick skin to survive here... most, including myself,
>>> thrive.
>>>
>>> I'm sure we'll soon have some tearful pleading that we organize
> the
>>> Azvjc... (it has been at least 6 months since the last major
>>> "organization" attempt), those who long for a "real" club should
> do as
>>> others have done and start your own club.
>>>
>>> The only drawback to the splinter groups is that we loose some
> very
>>> knowledgeable talent when this happens... it is sad to see some
> of our
>>> members leave, but it is for the best if they do not like things
> here.
>>> Sometimes people who create splinter clubs find the time to stay
> on
>>> with
>>> the Azvjc; and this is truly the best of all worlds.
>>>
>>> As far as the exposure topic goes... if you want exposure for our
> club,
>>> all you need to do is pick a subject matter (trail upkeep, adopt a
>>> highway, take supplies to Payson for the fire relief fund, coves
>>> cleanup, etc.) and run with it.
>>> You get an opportunity to be a leader, and try out your skills as
> a
>>> promoter for your pet project, whatever it may be.
>>>
>>> Note to splinter clubs:
>>>
>>> If you would like to let everyone know about your organized club,
> now
>>> would be a good time to increase your ranks if you so choose.
> Shoot
>>> the
>>> list your club name and contact information (President, etc) so
> that
>>> Azvjc members who wish to join an organized club can find you. I
>>> realize that a few of the Azvjc splinter clubs are exclusive by
>>> invitation only and those clubs obviously won't want to respond
> to this
>>> request.
>>>
>>> Long live Anarchy in the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club!
>>>
>>> Joe West
>>> Certified Public Anarchist
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is no way all of the list members would join the organized
> club.
>>> I'm betting you'd be lucky to get 10%. Really lucky.
>>>
>>> I like the AZVJC the way it is. Despite some of the arguments
> I've seen
>>> I have seen more AZVJC members at the land use meetings than all
> the
>>> organized clubs combined. I have seen the AZVJC get more exposure
> than
>>> any other club.
>>>
>>> Like always, those that desire more can form a club or join an
> existing
>>> one. The AZVJC has always been more of an information exchange
> than a
>>> true club anyway. Its working wonderfully as is. Why screw that
> up?
>>>
>>> Scott K
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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68397 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 5:14pm
Subject: [FS] 1992 XJ Sport
Price: $4,600 O.B.O.
Contact: Azxj4x4@netscape.net or 480-363-6083 (Rich)
For Sale:
92 XJ Sport, Silver with sunroof, 4.0l with stage 2 Mopar Perf cam and lifter kit. Mild head work, AX-15 manual trans, Near new water pump, fan clutch and brakes, 6.5" lift rear Rusty's and RockKrawler long-arm front suspension. 33x12.50-15 Pro Comp Xterrains on 15x8 ARE black steel wheels, CB comes with vehicle, Has front tow hooks and rear hitch with D-ring, Steering box brace not installed, also has 33" spare on matching wheel, Also has Clifford alarm.
Rich Kuzma
68398 From: Leonard Garcia <leonardg@a...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 5:22pm
Subject: ASA4WDC 4x4 Clinic: trip report & photos available
There is a trip report & now photos of the ASA4WDC "101" 4x4
Awareness Clinic conducted during the 2002 Jamboree at:
http://www.azvjc.org/Trips/View.asp?T=588
68399 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 5:51pm
Subject: Final notice for the people who said they wanted hood locks but failed to show or pay or make arrangements with me.
Hi Gang,
This message is for the few people who signed up for the kill switch
technical seminar but didn't show or pay or make arrangements with me to
pick up their hood locks. If you are still interested in purchasing the one
I'm holding for you, I'll hold it for you till the end of this week and then
I'll post it for sale. If you still want one, please get in touch with me
directly at arizonajeep@c...
Kind Regards,
Joe West
68400 From: Clint Ramsey <cwramsey@t...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 5:38pm
Subject: RE: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure
Since when? Every group I have been a part of who did the, adopt a highway thing cleaned their own mile.
Clint Ramsey
-----Original Message-----
From: AZICE626@aol.com [mailto:AZICE626@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 11:41 AM
To: kmichael02@yahoo.com; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure
the adopt a highway program is not as it seems.....you pay a fee to a company (I think around 5K) and they do the clean ups.....not the sponsoring person/group....
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
68401 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 6:01pm
Subject: [FS] wranglers and cjs
Price:
Contact:
i was just wondering if full steal doors from a 79 cj7 would fit on a wrangler? i was parked next to a wrangler and it looks like the doors would fit. just wanted some input
Aaron Rodgers cj7
Aaron Rodgers
68402 From: Ray B. <KB7SKV@C...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 6:21pm
Subject: Re: 4-wheelers plight
We've agreed to disagree!! :p
Ray and Amanda
AZAV8ER
Scott Kruize wrote:
I agree with Joey.
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: DesertJeep [mailto:joey@desertjeep.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 11:56 AM
To: 'Bill Mish'; 'Stu Olson'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; gotrox@cox.net
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight
What about the another approach... Why couldn't ASA4WDC make an addendum
or exception to their rules to accept us (AzVJC) as we are and invite us
as a member. I would think that with the strength we have shown it might
be in there best interest to do so. I really think the only thing we
would have to do is nominate and vote for a representative(s) to speak
for AzVJC at ASA4WDC meetings.
Now whether this will prevent another fiasco like this years Jamboree, I
doubt it but you never know.
Truth be told I can care less what people, groups and clubs or the
general public think of AzVJC. As long as we are morally doing the right
thing and teach good practices by example I don't have a problem being
part of AzVJC. Joey K
93YJ
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Mish [mailto:yldkat55@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 11:13 PM
To: Stu Olson; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; gotrox@cox.net
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight
Actually Stu, it is my hope that collectively we can have a larger voice
in the 4 wheeling arena, Right now, we simply aren't part of the process
unless we choose to be as individuals. Politicians listen to the voice
of one voter, they HEAR the voice of 2000 voters. I'm sure in your life
experience you may have found the same to be true. Although we may not
be talking about the formal arena of politics, 1 management agency may
more closely scrutinize the actions of an employee, of an RMP or land
use decision knowing that there are 2000 people strong behind that voice
in a meeting room.
The answer to some of your questions by the way, might be "NO", perhaps
time will tell you the answer to these since you have joined a club.
Personally, I think it may make you a more informed and EFFECTIVE voice.
Besides, who said anything about making you a better 4 wheeler? Maybe
You need to make THEM better! I think in your case Stu, you'd be better
off thinking along the lines of what you yourself are bringing to the
table, and not what you are going to get to eat!
What good would it have done if we had been a club?
Maybe you would have been the ASA4WDC delegate to remember to ask if
Jamboree things were cleared with the National Guard? Private land
owners? conflicting events, etc.
The fact that we are not more organized seems to make it easier for
those who wish to do nothing to continue to do so. It also makes it
EXTREMELY easy for those who are supposed to "Represent" us as
"Individuals" to become a little more "Comfy" in their lack of effort.
It's human nature when you are part of a "team effort" to pitch in and
do your share.(And also encourage others to join in).
There are those among us to which this 4 wheeling thing is just a fad,
like CB radios were or whatever, and that when it's no longer "Cool"
will sell their Jeeps, that's fine. But for those people who put forth a
serious effort to build their Jeeps into truly capable off road
machines, I say it might not be a bad idea to put as much effort into
making sure there's a place for you to enjoy it as you did to build it.
Organized 4 wheeling gives some people that capability. I recognize a
need for it now more than ever, and feel perhaps I should try to
convince others to feel the same way.
I know I didn't come near close to answering everything you had
questions about, but hopefully it helps.
Ohh yeah, no flame war here either Stu, we both know where the other is
coming from, (although I may not be as eloquent) and I respect your
input.
Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stu Olson"
To: "'Bill Mish'" ; ;
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 9:29 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight
Bill, you bring up a good point.....and one that I have been thinking
about during the past week or two.
A couple of weeks ago, I joined an ASA4WDC affiliated club here in the
area. So now, I am a card carrying certified member of the ASA4WDC,
etc.
However....the recent BLM land scoping meetings I attended had nothing
to do with the fact that I was a club member. I stood up at both
meetings and "had my day in court", so to speak. My comments went on record and from what I could tell, my input had no more nor no less weight than anyone else that spoke.
This is my question, after thinking about all of these things over the
past week. Will being an official club member cause me to make better
comments at a land use meeting? Will it cause me to write more or
better draft review comments on BLM management plans? Will I pick up more trash on the trail and bring it home with me? Will I attend more
trail cleanups than I did before becoming an official member? Will I
be able to better help new off-roaders learn the ropes by being a club
member?
In my opinion, I can do everyone one of the above things just as
effectively as an individual as I can being a sanctioned club member. In fact....I did everyone one of those things, many times over, as an individual and un-member of the highly unorganized AZVJC.
Now....don't get me wrong.....I am NOT against anyone joining a club
in order to support our 4 wheelin' hobby (if I were, I would not have done it myself, right?).
So....I am not trying to start a flame war here....but just trying to
figure out if being a club member is really going to turn people into better off-roaders than they already are. If the answers to all of those questions above is yes, then I guess we need to make the AZVJC an official ASA4WDC affiliated club.
Thinking more on this.....I suppose there is something to be said when
you can tell a land management agency that you have 2100 club members
who don't want a trail closed. However.....if we go the organized route and we charge dues (so that we can support the ASA and such), do
you really think we are going to have 2100 dues paying members?
Not.....I think we will have 20 or 30 or 40 or maybe even 50.....and.....we will have a LOT of people that still wheel together on the weekends, just like they have been doing for the past few years....and they won't belong to any club.
I guess some of this is idle thinking that I have put into words.
What I really want to see is more and more people become active in land management issues.....I want to see them attending
meetings....writing
letters.....complaining to the higher ups about Fransisco.....etc.
If
being a club will make that happen, then I am all for it. But deep
down inside, I don't see more involvement from the people because we want them to belong to a club.
On the flip side, you mentioned that in spite of all of the good and
worthy things that the AZVJC did this past year, " they were hardly enough to keep us from being where we are in regards to the Jamboree and land issues
in the Florence Junction area." So I ask you....what difference
would
any of this have made if we HAD been a club? Hell.....some of were
even
on TV (because we weren't in a club?) (please, no leather shorts
jokes!)
The way I see it, the people that have the most to lose are the people
who really love this sport.....and the way I see it, those that really
do love this sport are already doing a lot of things to help prevent
that from happening. The other folks are just sitting on the sidelines and enjoying the fruits of the labor of those that really do
care.....and we know who those folks are, true?
Anyone else have comments?
Stu
AZVJC / Arizona Lo Rangers / AZJC
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Mish [mailto:yldkat55@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 9:10 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; gotrox@cox.net
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight
I have resisted organization in the past, but now more than ever it
seems to make perfect sense.
Think about all the efforts put forth by this group in the last year,
and
although they had impact, and were very worthy, they were hardly
enough
to
keep us from being where we are in regards to the Jamboree and land issues in the Florence Junction area. That's pretty sad not only for me, but for
allot of other people who attended the event.
I saw allot of AZVJC people and stickers out there. Could it be that
we were the largest group of participants?
If so, then perhaps we have the most to lose.
With the quality of people in this group, and their level of
commitment to bettering our sport and public image, I think it would be a good choice. Especially if it means regaining control of the direction our sport is going.
Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 8:24 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight
After talking to Francisco Mendoza on Saturday, seeing first hand the
events that transpired with the BLM, AZ Fish and Game, and the Sheriff, I and several others, came to the same conclusion:
We are in trouble!!
I couldn't help but wonder if the AZVJC would be willing to risk
losing any ground to 'wheel on over something as simple as a little more structured approach in maintaining our hobby.
It has been stated time and time again in this group about
"Organization" being a losing battle. I think we "4wheelers" need to be more organized in
our fight. Now I know what some of you are going to say right off the
get
go. But if we plan to enjoy this sport that we all partake in, then
this
organization of interests and efforts needs to happen. I'm not saying that the AZVJC needs to become an incorporated body, but belonging to
ASA4WDC
will help. You can belong to other clubs that are part of ASA4WDC.
Many
of
us are already members indirectly through a 4WD club, but membership
can
be
individual too. My point is that we need to collectively show our support and share one voice through the ASA4WDC - to keep the freedom that we enjoy
as far as using public lands. If everyone waits for the next guy or
next
club to make our case with the land departments, we'll lose any
progress
we've made to keep our trails open.
As far as the trails that were being closed this weekend - Jawbreaker
was closed by the BLM - this came from Francisco Mendoza himself. Martinez, Overdose, Bad Medicine and Brake Line - those were closed by
the ASA4WDC due
to private land owner liability issues. Whether we agree or not, it
was
ASA4WDC's decision, aiming to prevent more land issues with the BLM about traveling over private property.
Are you all sure this is acceptable to you?
Was there something that could have been done, but wasn't?
Perhaps there is a way to become more actively involved in the
ASA4WDC, to ensure our voice is heard, and not just called on for "Land issue" meetings
when they need a sea of red shirts.
After seeing so many AZVJC stickers at the Jamboree, it seems like we
have alot to lose here.
I'm sure I will be flamed for bringing up this issue of organization,
but I will endure all that because I believe the topic must be seriously discussed
to ensure that we cover all perspectives and ultimately achieve a
collective
voice to fight for our rights as 4 wheelers and access to our land.
Neal Han****
Arizona Rock Crawlers / AZVJC
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68403 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 6:26pm
Subject: [FS] nissan tires
Price: best offer
Contact: scott clark 602-723-8373
265/70/15 off of a 2000 Nissan Frontier. Four tires W/O the rims They still have Good tread life left. All highway miles. I would like to get a 150.00 for all.
scott clark
68404 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 6:33pm
Subject: [FS] TJ transmission
Price: best offer
Contact: scott clark
Tranny is from my 97 TJ, It has about 50K on it. One day it wouldn't let me get into any gear so I swapped it out. Could be an easy fix, might not. It could be a shift fork or maybe a syncro. Make me an offer.
scott clark
68405 From: <mrbuckner@a...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 6:35pm
Subject: Re: Update on PRESS RELEASE
Send a copy to Francisco, for the BLM web site, and to the Sierra Club, so the can post on their web site.
68406 From: Theon Wier <theon@c...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 7:26pm
Subject: Welder
Guy's my dad is retired from SRP and Intel, and worked on every
powerhouse from Florida to Phoenix, he has 40 years experience
welding all types of metal. If anyone needs welding done let me know
because he is available and looking for something to do.
68407 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 7:45pm
Subject: RE: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure
IMHO, I would rather adopt a trail than a playground (which is what I
consider the Coves to be).
From another perspective, the Coves gets trashed very quickly, given the
high volume of traffic (boater and vehicular) it sees. A month after it
is cleaned up, it can easily look like crap. So.....the big sign says
AZVJC is responsible for this area. For 5 months, it looks like that,
until the next cleanup? I really don't want that hanging over my head
when people see the AZVJC sticker on my Jeep. Just kicking around some
thoughts on adopting the Coves.
Like I said, I would rather adopt a trail.
Stu
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Siade, Randy [mailto:randy.siade@u...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 9:10 AM
To: 'kmichael02'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure
All clubs that are associated with the ASA have adopted trails. I also
belong to the Arizona Dust Devils and our adopted trail is Rocker panel
pass. We do clean ups on this trail about 2 times a year. I have
suggested
in the past and will suggest again that VJC adopt a trail and since the
VJC
has had annual clean ups at the Coves I think we should adopt it. So
what
you all think?
-----Original Message-----
From: kmichael02 [mailto:kmichael02@y...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 8:57 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure
Club or no club...why not try to get constant exposure...such as
Adopting a section of highway or something...not sure if this has
ever been brought up but it gets you a sign, it's good for the
community, it doesn't take a long time to complete, it's easy to do
and people notice Signs as well as 25 jeeps on the side of a
highway...
when a news chopper flys over and states there's a bottle neck on
such and such...and then flys in for a closer look and it's b/c
people are rubber necking to watch a bunch of 4wheelers cleaning up
the environment, exposure in a positive manner....[assuming no one
wrecks b/c of it ;)]
just a thought
michael
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68408 From: purple <purp8@c...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 8:00pm
Subject: RE: Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a plea
I'm looking to put Willys front fenders on the XJ ....A clinic for that
too???? ;)
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe West [mailto:joe.west@s...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 5:08 PM
To: 'DesertJeep'; 'Chris Krieg'; 'purple'
Cc: 'roy95yj'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a
plea
I'd be happy to host a "Swap your rectangular headlights for round
headlights" technical workshop...
<grin>
-----Original Message-----
From: DesertJeep [mailto:joey@d...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 3:39 PM
To: 'Chris Krieg'; 'purple'
Cc: 'roy95yj'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a
plea
I up for that! You think Joe could gather all the required parts so we
could have it done in an evening at his house? ;)
Joey K
93YJ
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 2:47 PM
To: purple
Cc: roy95yj; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a
plea
Actually, a motor swap clinic would be fun.
On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 01:04 PM, purple wrote:
> Thanks again for the kill switch help Joe , and tell Joyce thanks for
> watching my son Dillon . He loved your orange cat . Can we have a
> motor swap clinic next ?? ( just kidding ....)
> Thanks again ,
> Purple .
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: roy95yj [mailto:roy95yj@y...]
> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 7:05 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a plea
>
>
>>
> Joe,
> What more can I say that hasn't already been said,,, Thanks for
> putting on the clinic.
>
> Thanks to everyone who helped.
>
> There is one thing, next time we need some younger jeepers with good
> eyes, we're getting to old to see some of the small wiring.
>
>
>
> Roy
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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68409 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 8:08pm
Subject: AZVJC did a GREAT showing today.....so did Sandee McCullen
Hi folks,
I am attending the NOHVCC (National Off Highway Vehicle Conservation
Council) conference in Scottsdale this week. I took a week's vacation
to do so, as I thought it would be a good step towards meeting the
multitude of land management officials (about 110 of them attending)
from all over Arizona plus a few from other states.
Anyway, to the point of this post.....they had an award presentation
late this afternoon....it was to honor the OHV clubs and an OHV
individual.
I am sorry to say that the AZVJC didn't receive the award. However, I
was extremely proud that we made one hell of a showing as they listed
the various activities/events we have done in the past year or two. (I
had been asked to supply a bunch of this information, as some of you may
remember me posting for help on this. Until today, I was under the
impression it was for some publicity stuff that a PR agency was doing
for one of the gov't agencies.) The award went to a ATV club who no
doubt did deserve it. They had 13 years of pretty darn good OHV support
in a variety of areas. None the less, we still stacked up pretty good
when our list of accomplishments was read. (For what it is worth, there
is 25 clubs that are part of the ASA4WDC.....there was about 5 groups
that made the list that was presented at the awards ceremony
today.....and AZVJC was in that group!)
Sandee McCullen was awarded the individual award for her work in the OHV
area. For those of you that know her, this should certainly come as no
surprise. I was most happy for her and she was pretty surprised when
they announced her name.
Just wanted to share some info with everyone.....and to make a point.
The AZVJC is being taken seriously by both the OHV community and by the
those we work with in the various land management agencies. That became
very obvious to me today.
I am very proud to be associated with this group!
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
68410 From: Joe-CJ7 <Joe-CJ7@j...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 8:21pm
Subject: RE: AZVJC did a GREAT showing today.....so did Sandee McCullen
Thanks for the information Stu. We do know Sandee and I for one am VERY proud to know her.
This group of unorganized people sure makes me happy to be a part of. I have seen and been a part of some of the things we do and I will continue to be a part of them.
Thanks again Stu.
I think we all should step back and give ourselves a pat on the back and really be proud of OUR AZ_VJC. Then get out there and wheel.
Joe Kearney
Joe-CJ7@JRKearney.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Stu Olson [mailto:solson8@qwest.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 8:08 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] AZVJC did a GREAT showing today.....so did Sandee McCullen
Importance: High
Hi folks,
I am attending the NOHVCC (National Off Highway Vehicle Conservation
Council) conference in Scottsdale this week. I took a week's vacation
to do so, as I thought it would be a good step towards meeting the
multitude of land management officials (about 110 of them attending)
from all over Arizona plus a few from other states.
Anyway, to the point of this post.....they had an award presentation
late this afternoon....it was to honor the OHV clubs and an OHV
individual.
I am sorry to say that the AZVJC didn't receive the award. However, I
was extremely proud that we made one hell of a showing as they listed
the various activities/events we have done in the past year or two. (I
had been asked to supply a bunch of this information, as some of you may
remember me posting for help on this. Until today, I was under the
impression it was for some publicity stuff that a PR agency was doing
for one of the gov't agencies.) The award went to a ATV club who no
doubt did deserve it. They had 13 years of pretty darn good OHV support
in a variety of areas. None the less, we still stacked up pretty good
when our list of accomplishments was read. (For what it is worth, there
is 25 clubs that are part of the ASA4WDC.....there was about 5 groups
that made the list that was presented at the awards ceremony
today.....and AZVJC was in that group!)
Sandee McCullen was awarded the individual award for her work in the OHV
area. For those of you that know her, this should certainly come as no
surprise. I was most happy for her and she was pretty surprised when
they announced her name.
Just wanted to share some info with everyone.....and to make a point.
The AZVJC is being taken seriously by both the OHV community and by the
those we work with in the various land management agencies. That became
very obvious to me today.
I am very proud to be associated with this group!
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
68411 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 8:33pm
Subject: Re: Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a plea
Another yummy clinic. I think Joe is an expert on that.
On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 08:00 PM, purple wrote:
> I'm looking to put Willys front fenders on the XJ ....A clinic for that
> too???? ;)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe West [mailto:joe.west@s...]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 5:08 PM
> To: 'DesertJeep'; 'Chris Krieg'; 'purple'
> Cc: 'roy95yj'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a
> plea
>
>
> I'd be happy to host a "Swap your rectangular headlights for round
> headlights" technical workshop...
> <grin>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DesertJeep [mailto:joey@d...]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 3:39 PM
> To: 'Chris Krieg'; 'purple'
> Cc: 'roy95yj'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a
> plea
>
> I up for that! You think Joe could gather all the required parts so we
> could have it done in an evening at his house? ;)
>
> Joey K
> 93YJ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 2:47 PM
> To: purple
> Cc: roy95yj; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a
> plea
>
>
> Actually, a motor swap clinic would be fun.
>
> On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 01:04 PM, purple wrote:
>
>> Thanks again for the kill switch help Joe , and tell Joyce thanks for
>> watching my son Dillon . He loved your orange cat . Can we have a
>> motor swap clinic next ?? ( just kidding ....)
>> Thanks again ,
>> Purple .
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: roy95yj [mailto:roy95yj@y...]
>> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 7:05 AM
>> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a plea
>>
>>
>>>
>> Joe,
>> What more can I say that hasn't already been said,,, Thanks for
>> putting on the clinic.
>>
>> Thanks to everyone who helped.
>>
>> There is one thing, next time we need some younger jeepers with good
>> eyes, we're getting to old to see some of the small wiring.
>>
>>
>>
>> Roy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
68412 From: Jake Wagner <jakewagner@y...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 8:43pm
Subject: ASA4WDC
Hi All:
I haven't taken the poll yet, but there's a few reasons why I have not joined ASA4WDC. The first is I'm in the transportation industry and I never know when I'm working so it's really hard for me to attend X amount of club meetings, or meet the criteria to go on X amount of trails per year. Second, all I ever hear is negative things. I.E. A few have mentioned we're paying this money to be represented, but where's the representation? The most recent from what I've heard is that the Jamboree was a disappointment to a lot of people.
I don't see why I should have to pay a registration fee to run a few trails I can run any other weekend? Especially since they put such restrictions on it this year and all the agencies were out there to see that it failed, which it sounds as if it was a let down for most.
My friend and I considered going to the Parker Splash that is coming up in a few weekends, but the cost is ridiculious for a weekend of wheeling. By the time we pay the registration fee, meal fee, camp fee, put gas in the Jeep and bring food for lunch it's a $200 weekend for 2 people in 1 Jeep. We usually go camping for 2 to 3 nights and run about 100-150 miles of trails and it only costs us about $100 to take 2 Jeeps, 2 tanks of gas, feed 2 people, plus the dog and still have food left over after we're done wheeling.
I understand there are permits and other expenditures, but why so much? I'm not saying don't be a member of ASA4WDC, just giving you my observations.
Jake
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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68388 From: Bill Mish <yldkat55@h...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:21pm
Subject: Re: Re: 4-wheelers plight
Yup.
Actually, it's Neal Han**** spearheading this... all the sudden I realize he
hasn't posted much and I'm out here all alone..... Well, at least Jose' is
still here with me.......
Just remember, Anarchy is great until the guerilla fighters pick you off one
by one....
Joe West, Shame on you!
Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Towle" <James.Towle@a...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 3:50 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: 4-wheelers plight
>
> The way I understand Bill's message it indirectly addresses your
> problem.
>
> Until and unless more people get directly involved (via an organized
> club), then concerns like yours won't be addressed. Not that their
> lack of organization is excusable but, they don't have this valueable
> input to build on.
>
> --James
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Scott Kruize" <skruize@c...> wrote:
> > I see one big problem with the ASA. A couple years ago I joined.
> > Somewhere along the way my membership expired and I never received
> any
> > kind of renewal notice. So I probably haven't been an ASA member
> for at
> > least 2 years. I guess if they really wanted to boost their numbers
> they
> > could send out a renewal notice to at least keep their existing
> members.
> >
> >
> > Scott K
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
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68389 From: azredrocker <gotrox@c...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:10pm
Subject: Re: 4-wheelers plight
Bill? Did I miss something?
Neal
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Bill Mish" <yldkat55@h...> wrote:
> You're just jealous cuz I'm bald and so damn handsome!
>
> Bill Mish
> 1955 Willys CJ3B
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "James Towle" <James.Towle@a...>
> To: <az_vjc@y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 3:39 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: 4-wheelers plight
>
>
> >
> > Still angry? Who me? I still see your messages, when they are on
the
> > board. lol.... <truce>
> >
> > Was that you I passed? I thought that big ol' tan thing on the
> > trailer looked familiar.
> >
> > --James
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Bill Mish" <yldkat55@h...> wrote:
> > >
> > > BTW, my messages to you are still rejected, are you still angry
> > with me
> > > about something?
> > > It's not because I didn't wave to you Sunday on the Highway,
is it?
> > > Heheehee!!
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
68390 From: <gotrox@c...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:18pm
Subject: 4-wheelers plight
No need to change the VJC. There are plenty of clubs that are part of ASA4WDC. If you don't want to be part of an organized club, no big deal, that's your decision. The great thing about freedom is you get to make your own decisions based on your individual experiences, wants and needs. If the ASA4WDC lets say put together a Meet and Greet the club, where you could see and talk to people would you go? I think most would! Then maybe go and do a run with the club you think you might fit in with. It doesn't mean you have to give up the VJC and what it stands for. We all have something to offer the 4wheeling communittee, some may want to express it on a different level or other forums. Like Bill Mish stated, its what you bring to the table, not what your going to get.
Neal Han****,
Arizona Rock Crawlers/VJC
68391 From: Rich <az_xj@y...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:27pm
Subject: RAY B.
Rich here,
I got your email but my Yahoo email doesn't work right.I can not send
from it.(only God knows why) anyway, I am the one who was trying to
get the pics from that Martinez run but I have still been
unsuccessful. Now that I have internet I can keep you guys updated.
Rich
(AZ-XJ)
68392 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:44pm
Subject: Re: AZ_VJC Splinter Clubs... was RE: Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure
Thats disagreeable
On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 03:30 PM, jeepin_in_az wrote:
> Damn Chris! Can you agree to give me some money??? :)
>
> Mike Baney
>
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...> wrote:
>> I agree with Joe too
>>
>> On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 10:59 AM, Joe West wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Scott,
>>>
>>> I agree with you... I believe that it would be difficult to
> garner many
>>> people from the azvjc into an organized club.
>>>
>>> The good news is that people have successfully created splinter
> clubs
>>> from the Azvjc... I can think of at least three clubs who began
> from
>>> the
>>> Azvjc and I suspect that there are many more.
>>>
>>> The AZVJC must be left as it is... while there are some who whine
> about
>>> off-topic posts and
> ignorant/arrogant/stupid/argumentative/violent/(you
>>> get the point) posts from the Azvjc list; they have an option if
> they
>>> don't like it:
>>>
>>> They quit.
>>>
>>> This is an excellent solution for those who don't like whatever
> the
>>> current incarnation of the Azvjc is. Our club, unorganized as it
> is,
>>> is
>>> infinitely better than any organized club in existence (this is my
>>> opinion of course). We have the best of all worlds and while
> sometimes
>>> it takes a thick skin to survive here... most, including myself,
>>> thrive.
>>>
>>> I'm sure we'll soon have some tearful pleading that we organize
> the
>>> Azvjc... (it has been at least 6 months since the last major
>>> "organization" attempt), those who long for a "real" club should
> do as
>>> others have done and start your own club.
>>>
>>> The only drawback to the splinter groups is that we loose some
> very
>>> knowledgeable talent when this happens... it is sad to see some
> of our
>>> members leave, but it is for the best if they do not like things
> here.
>>> Sometimes people who create splinter clubs find the time to stay
> on
>>> with
>>> the Azvjc; and this is truly the best of all worlds.
>>>
>>> As far as the exposure topic goes... if you want exposure for our
> club,
>>> all you need to do is pick a subject matter (trail upkeep, adopt a
>>> highway, take supplies to Payson for the fire relief fund, coves
>>> cleanup, etc.) and run with it.
>>> You get an opportunity to be a leader, and try out your skills as
> a
>>> promoter for your pet project, whatever it may be.
>>>
>>> Note to splinter clubs:
>>>
>>> If you would like to let everyone know about your organized club,
> now
>>> would be a good time to increase your ranks if you so choose.
> Shoot
>>> the
>>> list your club name and contact information (President, etc) so
> that
>>> Azvjc members who wish to join an organized club can find you. I
>>> realize that a few of the Azvjc splinter clubs are exclusive by
>>> invitation only and those clubs obviously won't want to respond
> to this
>>> request.
>>>
>>> Long live Anarchy in the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club!
>>>
>>> Joe West
>>> Certified Public Anarchist
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is no way all of the list members would join the organized
> club.
>>> I'm betting you'd be lucky to get 10%. Really lucky.
>>>
>>> I like the AZVJC the way it is. Despite some of the arguments
> I've seen
>>> I have seen more AZVJC members at the land use meetings than all
> the
>>> organized clubs combined. I have seen the AZVJC get more exposure
> than
>>> any other club.
>>>
>>> Like always, those that desire more can form a club or join an
> existing
>>> one. The AZVJC has always been more of an information exchange
> than a
>>> true club anyway. Its working wonderfully as is. Why screw that
> up?
>>>
>>> Scott K
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
68393 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:47pm
Subject: Re: Re: New poll for az_vjc
Agreed
On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 03:30 PM, Bill Mish wrote:
> SHEEP!!!!!!!!
> Hahahahahahaha!
> Just kidding :P
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
>> To: "Joe-CJ7" <Joe-CJ7@j...>
>> CC: "jeepin_in_az" <jeepin_in_az@y...>, <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
>> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: New poll for az_vjc
>> Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:26:04 -0700
>>
>> I agree with his agreeing
>>
>> On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 02:52 PM, Joe-CJ7 wrote:
>>
>>> I agree 100%!!!!
>>>
>>> Joe Kearney
>>> Joe-CJ7@J...
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: jeepin_in_az [mailto:jeepin_in_az@y...]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 12:31 PM
>>> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: New poll for az_vjc
>>>
>>> The AZVJC will NEVER join the ASA4WDC because we are an un-organised
>>> club. The VJC will NEVER organise.....That is a good thing.
>>>
>>> Mike Baney
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Leonard Garcia" <leonardg@a...> wrote:
>>>> Or "No, but I would like AzVJC to join"
>>>>
>>>> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe West" <joe.west@s...> wrote:
>>>>> There's no case for the obvious:
>>>>>
>>>>> No, but I would like to join
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe West
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: az_vjc@y... [mailto:az_vjc@y...]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 10:20 AM
>>>>> To: az_vjc@y...
>>>>> Subject: [az_vjc] New poll for az_vjc
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
>>>>> az_vjc group:
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you belong to ASA4WDC?
>>>>> This is just an informational poll.
>>>>> Names won't be seen. I would like the
>>>>> entire group to give some feedback on
>>>>> this. If there are catagories I missed,
>>>>> I apologize.
>>>>>
>>>>> o Yes, I purchased an individual membership
>>>>> o Yes, I belong through another club
>>>>> o No, I don't care to join
>>>>> o No, I don't know nothing about ASA4WDC
>>>>> o No, I don't live in Az
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To vote, please visit the following web page:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/surveys?id=993003
>>>>>
>>>>> Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
>>>>> not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo!
>>> Groups
>>>>> web site listed above.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
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68394 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:54pm
Subject: Re: 4-wheelers plight
Hey! That's my line!
Copycat!
:-P
I personally agree with organizing cause I can never find the tools I'm
looking for and the parts I bought last week seem to not be where I
thought I left them.
On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 03:31 PM, Scott Kruize wrote:
> I agree with Joey.
>
> Scott K
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DesertJeep [mailto:joey@d...]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 11:56 AM
> To: 'Bill Mish'; 'Stu Olson'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; gotrox@c...
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight
>
>
> What about the another approach... Why couldn't ASA4WDC make an
> addendum
> or exception to their rules to accept us (AzVJC) as we are and invite
> us
> as a member. I would think that with the strength we have shown it
> might
> be in there best interest to do so. I really think the only thing we
> would have to do is nominate and vote for a representative(s) to speak
> for AzVJC at ASA4WDC meetings.
>
> Now whether this will prevent another fiasco like this years Jamboree,
> I
> doubt it but you never know.
>
> Truth be told I can care less what people, groups and clubs or the
> general public think of AzVJC. As long as we are morally doing the
> right
> thing and teach good practices by example I don't have a problem being
> part of AzVJC.
>
> Joey K
> 93YJ
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Mish [mailto:yldkat55@h...]
> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 11:13 PM
> To: Stu Olson; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; gotrox@c...
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight
>
>
> Actually Stu, it is my hope that collectively we can have a larger
> voice
> in the 4 wheeling arena, Right now, we simply aren't part of the
> process
> unless we choose to be as individuals. Politicians listen to the voice
> of one voter, they HEAR the voice of 2000 voters. I'm sure in your life
> experience you may have found the same to be true. Although we may not
> be talking about the formal arena of politics, 1 management agency may
> more closely scrutinize the actions of an employee, of an RMP or land
> use decision knowing that there are 2000 people strong behind that
> voice
> in a meeting room.
>
> The answer to some of your questions by the way, might be "NO", perhaps
> time will tell you the answer to these since you have joined a club.
> Personally, I think it may make you a more informed and EFFECTIVE
> voice.
> Besides, who said anything about making you a better 4 wheeler? Maybe
> You need to make THEM better! I think in your case Stu, you'd be better
> off thinking along the lines of what you yourself are bringing to the
> table, and not what you are going to get to eat!
>
> What good would it have done if we had been a club?
> Maybe you would have been the ASA4WDC delegate to remember to ask if
> Jamboree things were cleared with the National Guard? Private land
> owners? conflicting events, etc.
>
> The fact that we are not more organized seems to make it easier for
> those who wish to do nothing to continue to do so. It also makes it
> EXTREMELY easy for those who are supposed to "Represent" us as
> "Individuals" to become a little more "Comfy" in their lack of effort.
>
> It's human nature when you are part of a "team effort" to pitch in and
> do your share.(And also encourage others to join in).
>
> There are those among us to which this 4 wheeling thing is just a fad,
> like CB radios were or whatever, and that when it's no longer "Cool"
> will sell their Jeeps, that's fine. But for those people who put forth
> a
> serious effort to build their Jeeps into truly capable off road
> machines, I say it might not be a bad idea to put as much effort into
> making sure there's a place for you to enjoy it as you did to build it.
> Organized 4 wheeling gives some people that capability. I recognize a
> need for it now more than ever, and feel perhaps I should try to
> convince others to feel the same way.
>
> I know I didn't come near close to answering everything you had
> questions about, but hopefully it helps.
>
> Ohh yeah, no flame war here either Stu, we both know where the other is
> coming from, (although I may not be as eloquent) and I respect your
> input.
>
> Bill Mish
> 1955 Willys CJ3B
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
> To: "'Bill Mish'" <yldkat55@h...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>;
> <gotrox@c...>
> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 9:29 PM
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight
>
>
>> Bill, you bring up a good point.....and one that I have been thinking
>> about during the past week or two.
>>
>> A couple of weeks ago, I joined an ASA4WDC affiliated club here in the
>
>> area. So now, I am a card carrying certified member of the ASA4WDC,
>> etc.
>>
>> However....the recent BLM land scoping meetings I attended had nothing
>
>> to do with the fact that I was a club member. I stood up at both
>> meetings and "had my day in court", so to speak. My comments went on
>> record and from what I could tell, my input had no more nor no less
>> weight than anyone else that spoke.
>>
>> This is my question, after thinking about all of these things over the
>
>> past week. Will being an official club member cause me to make better
>
>> comments at a land use meeting? Will it cause me to write more or
>> better draft review comments on BLM management plans? Will I pick up
>> more trash on the trail and bring it home with me? Will I attend more
>
>> trail cleanups than I did before becoming an official member? Will I
>> be able to better help new off-roaders learn the ropes by being a club
>
>> member?
>>
>> In my opinion, I can do everyone one of the above things just as
>> effectively as an individual as I can being a sanctioned club member.
>> In fact....I did everyone one of those things, many times over, as an
>> individual and un-member of the highly unorganized AZVJC.
>>
>> Now....don't get me wrong.....I am NOT against anyone joining a club
>> in order to support our 4 wheelin' hobby (if I were, I would not have
>> done it myself, right?).
>>
>> So....I am not trying to start a flame war here....but just trying to
>> figure out if being a club member is really going to turn people into
>> better off-roaders than they already are. If the answers to all of
>> those questions above is yes, then I guess we need to make the AZVJC
>> an official ASA4WDC affiliated club.
>>
>> Thinking more on this.....I suppose there is something to be said when
>
>> you can tell a land management agency that you have 2100 club members
>> who don't want a trail closed. However.....if we go the organized
>> route and we charge dues (so that we can support the ASA and such), do
>
>> you really think we are going to have 2100 dues paying members?
>> Not.....I think we will have 20 or 30 or 40 or maybe even
>> 50.....and.....we will have a LOT of people that still wheel together
>> on the weekends, just like they have been doing for the past few
>> years....and they won't belong to any club.
>>
>> I guess some of this is idle thinking that I have put into words.
>> What I really want to see is more and more people become active in
>> land management issues.....I want to see them attending
> meetings....writing
>> letters.....complaining to the higher ups about Fransisco.....etc.
> If
>> being a club will make that happen, then I am all for it. But deep
>> down inside, I don't see more involvement from the people because we
>> want them to belong to a club.
>>
>> On the flip side, you mentioned that in spite of all of the good and
>> worthy things that the AZVJC did this past year, " they were hardly
>> enough to keep us from being where we are in regards to the Jamboree
>> and land issues
>> in the Florence Junction area." So I ask you....what difference
> would
>> any of this have made if we HAD been a club? Hell.....some of were
> even
>> on TV (because we weren't in a club?) (please, no leather shorts
> jokes!)
>>
>>
>> The way I see it, the people that have the most to lose are the people
>
>> who really love this sport.....and the way I see it, those that really
>
>> do love this sport are already doing a lot of things to help prevent
>> that from happening. The other folks are just sitting on the
>> sidelines and enjoying the fruits of the labor of those that really do
>
>> care.....and we know who those folks are, true?
>>
>> Anyone else have comments?
>>
>> Stu
>> AZVJC / Arizona Lo Rangers / AZJC
>>
>> Stu Olson
>> www.stu-offroad.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bill Mish [mailto:yldkat55@h...]
>> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 9:10 PM
>> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; gotrox@c...
>> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight
>>
>> I have resisted organization in the past, but now more than ever it
>> seems to make perfect sense.
>> Think about all the efforts put forth by this group in the last year,
>> and
>> although they had impact, and were very worthy, they were hardly
> enough
>> to
>> keep us from being where we are in regards to the Jamboree and land
>> issues in the Florence Junction area. That's pretty sad not only for
>> me, but for
>> allot of other people who attended the event.
>>
>> I saw allot of AZVJC people and stickers out there. Could it be that
>> we were the largest group of participants?
>> If so, then perhaps we have the most to lose.
>>
>> With the quality of people in this group, and their level of
>> commitment to bettering our sport and public image, I think it would
>> be a good choice. Especially if it means regaining control of the
>> direction our sport is going.
>>
>>
>> Bill Mish
>> 1955 Willys CJ3B
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <gotrox@c...>
>> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 8:24 PM
>> Subject: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight
>>
>>
>> After talking to Francisco Mendoza on Saturday, seeing first hand the
>> events that transpired with the BLM, AZ Fish and Game, and the
>> Sheriff, I and several others, came to the same conclusion:
>>
>> We are in trouble!!
>>
>> I couldn't help but wonder if the AZVJC would be willing to risk
>> losing any ground to 'wheel on over something as simple as a little
>> more structured approach in maintaining our hobby.
>>
>> It has been stated time and time again in this group about
>> "Organization" being a losing battle. I think we "4wheelers" need to
>> be more organized in
>> our fight. Now I know what some of you are going to say right off the
>> get
>> go. But if we plan to enjoy this sport that we all partake in, then
> this
>> organization of interests and efforts needs to happen. I'm not saying
>> that the AZVJC needs to become an incorporated body, but belonging to
> ASA4WDC
>> will help. You can belong to other clubs that are part of ASA4WDC.
> Many
>> of
>> us are already members indirectly through a 4WD club, but membership
> can
>> be
>> individual too. My point is that we need to collectively show our
>> support and share one voice through the ASA4WDC - to keep the freedom
>> that we enjoy
>> as far as using public lands. If everyone waits for the next guy or
>> next
>> club to make our case with the land departments, we'll lose any
> progress
>> we've made to keep our trails open.
>>
>> As far as the trails that were being closed this weekend - Jawbreaker
>> was closed by the BLM - this came from Francisco Mendoza himself.
>> Martinez, Overdose, Bad Medicine and Brake Line - those were closed by
>
>> the ASA4WDC due
>> to private land owner liability issues. Whether we agree or not, it
> was
>> ASA4WDC's decision, aiming to prevent more land issues with the BLM
>> about traveling over private property.
>>
>> Are you all sure this is acceptable to you?
>>
>> Was there something that could have been done, but wasn't?
>>
>> Perhaps there is a way to become more actively involved in the
>> ASA4WDC, to ensure our voice is heard, and not just called on for
>> "Land issue" meetings
>> when they need a sea of red shirts.
>>
>> After seeing so many AZVJC stickers at the Jamboree, it seems like we
>> have alot to lose here.
>>
>> I'm sure I will be flamed for bringing up this issue of organization,
>> but I will endure all that because I believe the topic must be
>> seriously discussed
>> to ensure that we cover all perspectives and ultimately achieve a
>> collective
>> voice to fight for our rights as 4 wheelers and access to our land.
>>
>> Neal Han****
>> Arizona Rock Crawlers / AZVJC
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
68395 From: Joe West <joe.west@s...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 5:07pm
Subject: RE: Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a plea
I'd be happy to host a "Swap your rectangular headlights for round
headlights" technical workshop...
<grin>
-----Original Message-----
From: DesertJeep [mailto:joey@d...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 3:39 PM
To: 'Chris Krieg'; 'purple'
Cc: 'roy95yj'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a
plea
I up for that! You think Joe could gather all the required parts so we
could have it done in an evening at his house? ;)
Joey K
93YJ
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 2:47 PM
To: purple
Cc: roy95yj; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a
plea
Actually, a motor swap clinic would be fun.
On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 01:04 PM, purple wrote:
> Thanks again for the kill switch help Joe , and tell Joyce thanks for
> watching my son Dillon . He loved your orange cat . Can we have a
> motor swap clinic next ?? ( just kidding ....)
> Thanks again ,
> Purple .
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: roy95yj [mailto:roy95yj@y...]
> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 7:05 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a plea
>
>
>>
> Joe,
> What more can I say that hasn't already been said,,, Thanks for
> putting on the clinic.
>
> Thanks to everyone who helped.
>
> There is one thing, next time we need some younger jeepers with good
> eyes, we're getting to old to see some of the small wiring.
>
>
>
> Roy
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
68396 From: Joe West <joe.west@s...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 5:07pm
Subject: RE: AZ_VJC Splinter Clubs... was RE: Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure
I agree with Chris' disagreeing ;)
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 4:45 PM
To: jeepin_in_az
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: AZ_VJC Splinter Clubs... was RE: [az_vjc] Re: ---------Idea
on VJC Club exposure
Thats disagreeable
On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 03:30 PM, jeepin_in_az wrote:
> Damn Chris! Can you agree to give me some money??? :)
>
> Mike Baney
>
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...> wrote:
>> I agree with Joe too
>>
>> On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 10:59 AM, Joe West wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Scott,
>>>
>>> I agree with you... I believe that it would be difficult to
> garner many
>>> people from the azvjc into an organized club.
>>>
>>> The good news is that people have successfully created splinter
> clubs
>>> from the Azvjc... I can think of at least three clubs who began
> from
>>> the
>>> Azvjc and I suspect that there are many more.
>>>
>>> The AZVJC must be left as it is... while there are some who whine
> about
>>> off-topic posts and
> ignorant/arrogant/stupid/argumentative/violent/(you
>>> get the point) posts from the Azvjc list; they have an option if
> they
>>> don't like it:
>>>
>>> They quit.
>>>
>>> This is an excellent solution for those who don't like whatever
> the
>>> current incarnation of the Azvjc is. Our club, unorganized as it
> is,
>>> is
>>> infinitely better than any organized club in existence (this is my
>>> opinion of course). We have the best of all worlds and while
> sometimes
>>> it takes a thick skin to survive here... most, including myself,
>>> thrive.
>>>
>>> I'm sure we'll soon have some tearful pleading that we organize
> the
>>> Azvjc... (it has been at least 6 months since the last major
>>> "organization" attempt), those who long for a "real" club should
> do as
>>> others have done and start your own club.
>>>
>>> The only drawback to the splinter groups is that we loose some
> very
>>> knowledgeable talent when this happens... it is sad to see some
> of our
>>> members leave, but it is for the best if they do not like things
> here.
>>> Sometimes people who create splinter clubs find the time to stay
> on
>>> with
>>> the Azvjc; and this is truly the best of all worlds.
>>>
>>> As far as the exposure topic goes... if you want exposure for our
> club,
>>> all you need to do is pick a subject matter (trail upkeep, adopt a
>>> highway, take supplies to Payson for the fire relief fund, coves
>>> cleanup, etc.) and run with it.
>>> You get an opportunity to be a leader, and try out your skills as
> a
>>> promoter for your pet project, whatever it may be.
>>>
>>> Note to splinter clubs:
>>>
>>> If you would like to let everyone know about your organized club,
> now
>>> would be a good time to increase your ranks if you so choose.
> Shoot
>>> the
>>> list your club name and contact information (President, etc) so
> that
>>> Azvjc members who wish to join an organized club can find you. I
>>> realize that a few of the Azvjc splinter clubs are exclusive by
>>> invitation only and those clubs obviously won't want to respond
> to this
>>> request.
>>>
>>> Long live Anarchy in the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club!
>>>
>>> Joe West
>>> Certified Public Anarchist
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is no way all of the list members would join the organized
> club.
>>> I'm betting you'd be lucky to get 10%. Really lucky.
>>>
>>> I like the AZVJC the way it is. Despite some of the arguments
> I've seen
>>> I have seen more AZVJC members at the land use meetings than all
> the
>>> organized clubs combined. I have seen the AZVJC get more exposure
> than
>>> any other club.
>>>
>>> Like always, those that desire more can form a club or join an
> existing
>>> one. The AZVJC has always been more of an information exchange
> than a
>>> true club anyway. Its working wonderfully as is. Why screw that
> up?
>>>
>>> Scott K
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
68397 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 5:14pm
Subject: [FS] 1992 XJ Sport
Price: $4,600 O.B.O.
Contact: Azxj4x4@netscape.net or 480-363-6083 (Rich)
For Sale:
92 XJ Sport, Silver with sunroof, 4.0l with stage 2 Mopar Perf cam and lifter kit. Mild head work, AX-15 manual trans, Near new water pump, fan clutch and brakes, 6.5" lift rear Rusty's and RockKrawler long-arm front suspension. 33x12.50-15 Pro Comp Xterrains on 15x8 ARE black steel wheels, CB comes with vehicle, Has front tow hooks and rear hitch with D-ring, Steering box brace not installed, also has 33" spare on matching wheel, Also has Clifford alarm.
Rich Kuzma
68398 From: Leonard Garcia <leonardg@a...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 5:22pm
Subject: ASA4WDC 4x4 Clinic: trip report & photos available
There is a trip report & now photos of the ASA4WDC "101" 4x4
Awareness Clinic conducted during the 2002 Jamboree at:
http://www.azvjc.org/Trips/View.asp?T=588
68399 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 5:51pm
Subject: Final notice for the people who said they wanted hood locks but failed to show or pay or make arrangements with me.
Hi Gang,
This message is for the few people who signed up for the kill switch
technical seminar but didn't show or pay or make arrangements with me to
pick up their hood locks. If you are still interested in purchasing the one
I'm holding for you, I'll hold it for you till the end of this week and then
I'll post it for sale. If you still want one, please get in touch with me
directly at arizonajeep@c...
Kind Regards,
Joe West
68400 From: Clint Ramsey <cwramsey@t...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 5:38pm
Subject: RE: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure
Since when? Every group I have been a part of who did the, adopt a highway thing cleaned their own mile.
Clint Ramsey
-----Original Message-----
From: AZICE626@aol.com [mailto:AZICE626@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 11:41 AM
To: kmichael02@yahoo.com; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure
the adopt a highway program is not as it seems.....you pay a fee to a company (I think around 5K) and they do the clean ups.....not the sponsoring person/group....
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
68401 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 6:01pm
Subject: [FS] wranglers and cjs
Price:
Contact:
i was just wondering if full steal doors from a 79 cj7 would fit on a wrangler? i was parked next to a wrangler and it looks like the doors would fit. just wanted some input
Aaron Rodgers cj7
Aaron Rodgers
68402 From: Ray B. <KB7SKV@C...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 6:21pm
Subject: Re: 4-wheelers plight
We've agreed to disagree!! :p
Ray and Amanda
AZAV8ER
Scott Kruize wrote:
I agree with Joey.
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: DesertJeep [mailto:joey@desertjeep.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 11:56 AM
To: 'Bill Mish'; 'Stu Olson'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; gotrox@cox.net
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight
What about the another approach... Why couldn't ASA4WDC make an addendum
or exception to their rules to accept us (AzVJC) as we are and invite us
as a member. I would think that with the strength we have shown it might
be in there best interest to do so. I really think the only thing we
would have to do is nominate and vote for a representative(s) to speak
for AzVJC at ASA4WDC meetings.
Now whether this will prevent another fiasco like this years Jamboree, I
doubt it but you never know.
Truth be told I can care less what people, groups and clubs or the
general public think of AzVJC. As long as we are morally doing the right
thing and teach good practices by example I don't have a problem being
part of AzVJC. Joey K
93YJ
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Mish [mailto:yldkat55@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 11:13 PM
To: Stu Olson; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; gotrox@cox.net
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight
Actually Stu, it is my hope that collectively we can have a larger voice
in the 4 wheeling arena, Right now, we simply aren't part of the process
unless we choose to be as individuals. Politicians listen to the voice
of one voter, they HEAR the voice of 2000 voters. I'm sure in your life
experience you may have found the same to be true. Although we may not
be talking about the formal arena of politics, 1 management agency may
more closely scrutinize the actions of an employee, of an RMP or land
use decision knowing that there are 2000 people strong behind that voice
in a meeting room.
The answer to some of your questions by the way, might be "NO", perhaps
time will tell you the answer to these since you have joined a club.
Personally, I think it may make you a more informed and EFFECTIVE voice.
Besides, who said anything about making you a better 4 wheeler? Maybe
You need to make THEM better! I think in your case Stu, you'd be better
off thinking along the lines of what you yourself are bringing to the
table, and not what you are going to get to eat!
What good would it have done if we had been a club?
Maybe you would have been the ASA4WDC delegate to remember to ask if
Jamboree things were cleared with the National Guard? Private land
owners? conflicting events, etc.
The fact that we are not more organized seems to make it easier for
those who wish to do nothing to continue to do so. It also makes it
EXTREMELY easy for those who are supposed to "Represent" us as
"Individuals" to become a little more "Comfy" in their lack of effort.
It's human nature when you are part of a "team effort" to pitch in and
do your share.(And also encourage others to join in).
There are those among us to which this 4 wheeling thing is just a fad,
like CB radios were or whatever, and that when it's no longer "Cool"
will sell their Jeeps, that's fine. But for those people who put forth a
serious effort to build their Jeeps into truly capable off road
machines, I say it might not be a bad idea to put as much effort into
making sure there's a place for you to enjoy it as you did to build it.
Organized 4 wheeling gives some people that capability. I recognize a
need for it now more than ever, and feel perhaps I should try to
convince others to feel the same way.
I know I didn't come near close to answering everything you had
questions about, but hopefully it helps.
Ohh yeah, no flame war here either Stu, we both know where the other is
coming from, (although I may not be as eloquent) and I respect your
input.
Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stu Olson"
To: "'Bill Mish'" ; ;
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 9:29 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight
Bill, you bring up a good point.....and one that I have been thinking
about during the past week or two.
A couple of weeks ago, I joined an ASA4WDC affiliated club here in the
area. So now, I am a card carrying certified member of the ASA4WDC,
etc.
However....the recent BLM land scoping meetings I attended had nothing
to do with the fact that I was a club member. I stood up at both
meetings and "had my day in court", so to speak. My comments went on record and from what I could tell, my input had no more nor no less weight than anyone else that spoke.
This is my question, after thinking about all of these things over the
past week. Will being an official club member cause me to make better
comments at a land use meeting? Will it cause me to write more or
better draft review comments on BLM management plans? Will I pick up more trash on the trail and bring it home with me? Will I attend more
trail cleanups than I did before becoming an official member? Will I
be able to better help new off-roaders learn the ropes by being a club
member?
In my opinion, I can do everyone one of the above things just as
effectively as an individual as I can being a sanctioned club member. In fact....I did everyone one of those things, many times over, as an individual and un-member of the highly unorganized AZVJC.
Now....don't get me wrong.....I am NOT against anyone joining a club
in order to support our 4 wheelin' hobby (if I were, I would not have done it myself, right?).
So....I am not trying to start a flame war here....but just trying to
figure out if being a club member is really going to turn people into better off-roaders than they already are. If the answers to all of those questions above is yes, then I guess we need to make the AZVJC an official ASA4WDC affiliated club.
Thinking more on this.....I suppose there is something to be said when
you can tell a land management agency that you have 2100 club members
who don't want a trail closed. However.....if we go the organized route and we charge dues (so that we can support the ASA and such), do
you really think we are going to have 2100 dues paying members?
Not.....I think we will have 20 or 30 or 40 or maybe even 50.....and.....we will have a LOT of people that still wheel together on the weekends, just like they have been doing for the past few years....and they won't belong to any club.
I guess some of this is idle thinking that I have put into words.
What I really want to see is more and more people become active in land management issues.....I want to see them attending
meetings....writing
letters.....complaining to the higher ups about Fransisco.....etc.
If
being a club will make that happen, then I am all for it. But deep
down inside, I don't see more involvement from the people because we want them to belong to a club.
On the flip side, you mentioned that in spite of all of the good and
worthy things that the AZVJC did this past year, " they were hardly enough to keep us from being where we are in regards to the Jamboree and land issues
in the Florence Junction area." So I ask you....what difference
would
any of this have made if we HAD been a club? Hell.....some of were
even
on TV (because we weren't in a club?) (please, no leather shorts
jokes!)
The way I see it, the people that have the most to lose are the people
who really love this sport.....and the way I see it, those that really
do love this sport are already doing a lot of things to help prevent
that from happening. The other folks are just sitting on the sidelines and enjoying the fruits of the labor of those that really do
care.....and we know who those folks are, true?
Anyone else have comments?
Stu
AZVJC / Arizona Lo Rangers / AZJC
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Mish [mailto:yldkat55@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 9:10 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; gotrox@cox.net
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight
I have resisted organization in the past, but now more than ever it
seems to make perfect sense.
Think about all the efforts put forth by this group in the last year,
and
although they had impact, and were very worthy, they were hardly
enough
to
keep us from being where we are in regards to the Jamboree and land issues in the Florence Junction area. That's pretty sad not only for me, but for
allot of other people who attended the event.
I saw allot of AZVJC people and stickers out there. Could it be that
we were the largest group of participants?
If so, then perhaps we have the most to lose.
With the quality of people in this group, and their level of
commitment to bettering our sport and public image, I think it would be a good choice. Especially if it means regaining control of the direction our sport is going.
Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 8:24 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight
After talking to Francisco Mendoza on Saturday, seeing first hand the
events that transpired with the BLM, AZ Fish and Game, and the Sheriff, I and several others, came to the same conclusion:
We are in trouble!!
I couldn't help but wonder if the AZVJC would be willing to risk
losing any ground to 'wheel on over something as simple as a little more structured approach in maintaining our hobby.
It has been stated time and time again in this group about
"Organization" being a losing battle. I think we "4wheelers" need to be more organized in
our fight. Now I know what some of you are going to say right off the
get
go. But if we plan to enjoy this sport that we all partake in, then
this
organization of interests and efforts needs to happen. I'm not saying that the AZVJC needs to become an incorporated body, but belonging to
ASA4WDC
will help. You can belong to other clubs that are part of ASA4WDC.
Many
of
us are already members indirectly through a 4WD club, but membership
can
be
individual too. My point is that we need to collectively show our support and share one voice through the ASA4WDC - to keep the freedom that we enjoy
as far as using public lands. If everyone waits for the next guy or
next
club to make our case with the land departments, we'll lose any
progress
we've made to keep our trails open.
As far as the trails that were being closed this weekend - Jawbreaker
was closed by the BLM - this came from Francisco Mendoza himself. Martinez, Overdose, Bad Medicine and Brake Line - those were closed by
the ASA4WDC due
to private land owner liability issues. Whether we agree or not, it
was
ASA4WDC's decision, aiming to prevent more land issues with the BLM about traveling over private property.
Are you all sure this is acceptable to you?
Was there something that could have been done, but wasn't?
Perhaps there is a way to become more actively involved in the
ASA4WDC, to ensure our voice is heard, and not just called on for "Land issue" meetings
when they need a sea of red shirts.
After seeing so many AZVJC stickers at the Jamboree, it seems like we
have alot to lose here.
I'm sure I will be flamed for bringing up this issue of organization,
but I will endure all that because I believe the topic must be seriously discussed
to ensure that we cover all perspectives and ultimately achieve a
collective
voice to fight for our rights as 4 wheelers and access to our land.
Neal Han****
Arizona Rock Crawlers / AZVJC
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68403 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 6:26pm
Subject: [FS] nissan tires
Price: best offer
Contact: scott clark 602-723-8373
265/70/15 off of a 2000 Nissan Frontier. Four tires W/O the rims They still have Good tread life left. All highway miles. I would like to get a 150.00 for all.
scott clark
68404 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 6:33pm
Subject: [FS] TJ transmission
Price: best offer
Contact: scott clark
Tranny is from my 97 TJ, It has about 50K on it. One day it wouldn't let me get into any gear so I swapped it out. Could be an easy fix, might not. It could be a shift fork or maybe a syncro. Make me an offer.
scott clark
68405 From: <mrbuckner@a...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 6:35pm
Subject: Re: Update on PRESS RELEASE
Send a copy to Francisco, for the BLM web site, and to the Sierra Club, so the can post on their web site.
68406 From: Theon Wier <theon@c...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 7:26pm
Subject: Welder
Guy's my dad is retired from SRP and Intel, and worked on every
powerhouse from Florida to Phoenix, he has 40 years experience
welding all types of metal. If anyone needs welding done let me know
because he is available and looking for something to do.
68407 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 7:45pm
Subject: RE: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure
IMHO, I would rather adopt a trail than a playground (which is what I
consider the Coves to be).
From another perspective, the Coves gets trashed very quickly, given the
high volume of traffic (boater and vehicular) it sees. A month after it
is cleaned up, it can easily look like crap. So.....the big sign says
AZVJC is responsible for this area. For 5 months, it looks like that,
until the next cleanup? I really don't want that hanging over my head
when people see the AZVJC sticker on my Jeep. Just kicking around some
thoughts on adopting the Coves.
Like I said, I would rather adopt a trail.
Stu
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Siade, Randy [mailto:randy.siade@u...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 9:10 AM
To: 'kmichael02'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure
All clubs that are associated with the ASA have adopted trails. I also
belong to the Arizona Dust Devils and our adopted trail is Rocker panel
pass. We do clean ups on this trail about 2 times a year. I have
suggested
in the past and will suggest again that VJC adopt a trail and since the
VJC
has had annual clean ups at the Coves I think we should adopt it. So
what
you all think?
-----Original Message-----
From: kmichael02 [mailto:kmichael02@y...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 8:57 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure
Club or no club...why not try to get constant exposure...such as
Adopting a section of highway or something...not sure if this has
ever been brought up but it gets you a sign, it's good for the
community, it doesn't take a long time to complete, it's easy to do
and people notice Signs as well as 25 jeeps on the side of a
highway...
when a news chopper flys over and states there's a bottle neck on
such and such...and then flys in for a closer look and it's b/c
people are rubber necking to watch a bunch of 4wheelers cleaning up
the environment, exposure in a positive manner....[assuming no one
wrecks b/c of it ;)]
just a thought
michael
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68408 From: purple <purp8@c...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 8:00pm
Subject: RE: Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a plea
I'm looking to put Willys front fenders on the XJ ....A clinic for that
too???? ;)
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe West [mailto:joe.west@s...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 5:08 PM
To: 'DesertJeep'; 'Chris Krieg'; 'purple'
Cc: 'roy95yj'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a
plea
I'd be happy to host a "Swap your rectangular headlights for round
headlights" technical workshop...
<grin>
-----Original Message-----
From: DesertJeep [mailto:joey@d...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 3:39 PM
To: 'Chris Krieg'; 'purple'
Cc: 'roy95yj'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a
plea
I up for that! You think Joe could gather all the required parts so we
could have it done in an evening at his house? ;)
Joey K
93YJ
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 2:47 PM
To: purple
Cc: roy95yj; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a
plea
Actually, a motor swap clinic would be fun.
On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 01:04 PM, purple wrote:
> Thanks again for the kill switch help Joe , and tell Joyce thanks for
> watching my son Dillon . He loved your orange cat . Can we have a
> motor swap clinic next ?? ( just kidding ....)
> Thanks again ,
> Purple .
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: roy95yj [mailto:roy95yj@y...]
> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 7:05 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a plea
>
>
>>
> Joe,
> What more can I say that hasn't already been said,,, Thanks for
> putting on the clinic.
>
> Thanks to everyone who helped.
>
> There is one thing, next time we need some younger jeepers with good
> eyes, we're getting to old to see some of the small wiring.
>
>
>
> Roy
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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68409 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 8:08pm
Subject: AZVJC did a GREAT showing today.....so did Sandee McCullen
Hi folks,
I am attending the NOHVCC (National Off Highway Vehicle Conservation
Council) conference in Scottsdale this week. I took a week's vacation
to do so, as I thought it would be a good step towards meeting the
multitude of land management officials (about 110 of them attending)
from all over Arizona plus a few from other states.
Anyway, to the point of this post.....they had an award presentation
late this afternoon....it was to honor the OHV clubs and an OHV
individual.
I am sorry to say that the AZVJC didn't receive the award. However, I
was extremely proud that we made one hell of a showing as they listed
the various activities/events we have done in the past year or two. (I
had been asked to supply a bunch of this information, as some of you may
remember me posting for help on this. Until today, I was under the
impression it was for some publicity stuff that a PR agency was doing
for one of the gov't agencies.) The award went to a ATV club who no
doubt did deserve it. They had 13 years of pretty darn good OHV support
in a variety of areas. None the less, we still stacked up pretty good
when our list of accomplishments was read. (For what it is worth, there
is 25 clubs that are part of the ASA4WDC.....there was about 5 groups
that made the list that was presented at the awards ceremony
today.....and AZVJC was in that group!)
Sandee McCullen was awarded the individual award for her work in the OHV
area. For those of you that know her, this should certainly come as no
surprise. I was most happy for her and she was pretty surprised when
they announced her name.
Just wanted to share some info with everyone.....and to make a point.
The AZVJC is being taken seriously by both the OHV community and by the
those we work with in the various land management agencies. That became
very obvious to me today.
I am very proud to be associated with this group!
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
68410 From: Joe-CJ7 <Joe-CJ7@j...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 8:21pm
Subject: RE: AZVJC did a GREAT showing today.....so did Sandee McCullen
Thanks for the information Stu. We do know Sandee and I for one am VERY proud to know her.
This group of unorganized people sure makes me happy to be a part of. I have seen and been a part of some of the things we do and I will continue to be a part of them.
Thanks again Stu.
I think we all should step back and give ourselves a pat on the back and really be proud of OUR AZ_VJC. Then get out there and wheel.
Joe Kearney
Joe-CJ7@JRKearney.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Stu Olson [mailto:solson8@qwest.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 8:08 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] AZVJC did a GREAT showing today.....so did Sandee McCullen
Importance: High
Hi folks,
I am attending the NOHVCC (National Off Highway Vehicle Conservation
Council) conference in Scottsdale this week. I took a week's vacation
to do so, as I thought it would be a good step towards meeting the
multitude of land management officials (about 110 of them attending)
from all over Arizona plus a few from other states.
Anyway, to the point of this post.....they had an award presentation
late this afternoon....it was to honor the OHV clubs and an OHV
individual.
I am sorry to say that the AZVJC didn't receive the award. However, I
was extremely proud that we made one hell of a showing as they listed
the various activities/events we have done in the past year or two. (I
had been asked to supply a bunch of this information, as some of you may
remember me posting for help on this. Until today, I was under the
impression it was for some publicity stuff that a PR agency was doing
for one of the gov't agencies.) The award went to a ATV club who no
doubt did deserve it. They had 13 years of pretty darn good OHV support
in a variety of areas. None the less, we still stacked up pretty good
when our list of accomplishments was read. (For what it is worth, there
is 25 clubs that are part of the ASA4WDC.....there was about 5 groups
that made the list that was presented at the awards ceremony
today.....and AZVJC was in that group!)
Sandee McCullen was awarded the individual award for her work in the OHV
area. For those of you that know her, this should certainly come as no
surprise. I was most happy for her and she was pretty surprised when
they announced her name.
Just wanted to share some info with everyone.....and to make a point.
The AZVJC is being taken seriously by both the OHV community and by the
those we work with in the various land management agencies. That became
very obvious to me today.
I am very proud to be associated with this group!
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
68411 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 8:33pm
Subject: Re: Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a plea
Another yummy clinic. I think Joe is an expert on that.
On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 08:00 PM, purple wrote:
> I'm looking to put Willys front fenders on the XJ ....A clinic for that
> too???? ;)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe West [mailto:joe.west@s...]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 5:08 PM
> To: 'DesertJeep'; 'Chris Krieg'; 'purple'
> Cc: 'roy95yj'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a
> plea
>
>
> I'd be happy to host a "Swap your rectangular headlights for round
> headlights" technical workshop...
> <grin>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DesertJeep [mailto:joey@d...]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 3:39 PM
> To: 'Chris Krieg'; 'purple'
> Cc: 'roy95yj'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a
> plea
>
> I up for that! You think Joe could gather all the required parts so we
> could have it done in an evening at his house? ;)
>
> Joey K
> 93YJ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 2:47 PM
> To: purple
> Cc: roy95yj; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a
> plea
>
>
> Actually, a motor swap clinic would be fun.
>
> On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 01:04 PM, purple wrote:
>
>> Thanks again for the kill switch help Joe , and tell Joyce thanks for
>> watching my son Dillon . He loved your orange cat . Can we have a
>> motor swap clinic next ?? ( just kidding ....)
>> Thanks again ,
>> Purple .
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: roy95yj [mailto:roy95yj@y...]
>> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 7:05 AM
>> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a plea
>>
>>
>>>
>> Joe,
>> What more can I say that hasn't already been said,,, Thanks for
>> putting on the clinic.
>>
>> Thanks to everyone who helped.
>>
>> There is one thing, next time we need some younger jeepers with good
>> eyes, we're getting to old to see some of the small wiring.
>>
>>
>>
>> Roy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
68412 From: Jake Wagner <jakewagner@y...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 8:43pm
Subject: ASA4WDC
Hi All:
I haven't taken the poll yet, but there's a few reasons why I have not joined ASA4WDC. The first is I'm in the transportation industry and I never know when I'm working so it's really hard for me to attend X amount of club meetings, or meet the criteria to go on X amount of trails per year. Second, all I ever hear is negative things. I.E. A few have mentioned we're paying this money to be represented, but where's the representation? The most recent from what I've heard is that the Jamboree was a disappointment to a lot of people.
I don't see why I should have to pay a registration fee to run a few trails I can run any other weekend? Especially since they put such restrictions on it this year and all the agencies were out there to see that it failed, which it sounds as if it was a let down for most.
My friend and I considered going to the Parker Splash that is coming up in a few weekends, but the cost is ridiculious for a weekend of wheeling. By the time we pay the registration fee, meal fee, camp fee, put gas in the Jeep and bring food for lunch it's a $200 weekend for 2 people in 1 Jeep. We usually go camping for 2 to 3 nights and run about 100-150 miles of trails and it only costs us about $100 to take 2 Jeeps, 2 tanks of gas, feed 2 people, plus the dog and still have food left over after we're done wheeling.
I understand there are permits and other expenditures, but why so much? I'm not saying don't be a member of ASA4WDC, just giving you my observations.
Jake
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