Yahoo Messages: 68362-68387

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68362-68387

68362 From: ENB4W <enb4w@e...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 2:37pm
Subject: RE: New poll for az_vjc


-----Original Message-----
From: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:az_vjc@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 10:20 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] New poll for az_vjc



Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
az_vjc group:

Do you belong to ASA4WDC?
This is just an informational poll.
Names won't be seen. I would like the
entire group to give some feedback on
this. If there are catagories I missed,
I apologize.

o Yes, I purchased an individual membership
X Yes, I belong through another club
o No, I don't care to join
o No, I don't know nothing about ASA4WDC
o No, I don't live in Az


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/surveys?id=993003

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!









Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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68363 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 2:43pm
Subject: Re: Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure


Wow, first I agree with Stu, now I agree with Scott.

:-P

Chris

On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 10:11 AM, Scott Kruize wrote:

>
> If (big if) there were to be an organized club you would need to leave
> the Azvjc Yahoo Group open to everyone. There is no need to exclude
> anybody from the email list. That way no members would have to leave.
> That's all I'm concerned about at the moment. We need a place for those
> that want to share tech info, etc without being forced to join a true
> club.
>
> There is no way all of the list members would join the organized club.
> I'm betting you'd be lucky to get 10%. Really lucky.
>
> I like the AZVJC the way it is. Despite some of the arguments I've seen
> I have seen more AZVJC members at the land use meetings than all the
> organized clubs combined. I have seen the AZVJC get more exposure than
> any other club.
>
> Like always, those that desire more can form a club or join an existing
> one. The AZVJC has always been more of an information exchange than a
> true club anyway. Its working wonderfully as is. Why screw that up?
>
> Scott K
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leonard Garcia [mailto:leonardg@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 10:00 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure
>
>
> OK, great. If you have an idea on how to get members to agree, let's
> hear it.
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "kmichael02" <kmichael02@y...> wrote:
>> we've been through this all before. Someone else can worry about
> the
>> poll that's only going to end up where it always has.
>>
>> I thought the issue was getting exposure in a positive light. That
>> means getting out there and being visible. While cleaning up the
>> coves is a very positive activity, and seemingly much needed on a
>> routine basis, the exposure it presents is very limited and if any
> is
>> found via news, etc., it's somewhat pain staking. Surely any sign
>> posted there would be shot to hell and ruined.
>>
>> Adopting a Highway gets you a big sign and many people see it,
>> politicians, cops, advocates etc etc etc. I'm not saying this is
> the
>> only method or means to being recognized as "aware of our
>> surroundings and worried about them," but it certainly is a start.
>> Where else do you see any info about the vjc? A big sign on the
> side
>> of the highway with a picture of a jeep goes a long, long
> way....hell
>> the jeep is an american icon, only second in recogintion to the
> damn
>> vw bug.
>>
>>
>> I'm certain it would be noticed, and who can't spare time to pick
> up
>> trash with all of our "members"
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Leonard Garcia" <leonardg@a...> wrote:
>>> Why don't you add a Poll (in the Polls section of this Yahoo
> Group)
>>> on that and on whether AzVJC should officially join ASA4WDC...
> and
>>> how to pay for it...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Siade, Randy" <randy.siade@u...> wrote:
>>>> All clubs that are associated with the ASA have adopted trails.
> I
>>> also
>>>> belong to the Arizona Dust Devils and our adopted trail is
> Rocker
>>> panel
>>>> pass. We do clean ups on this trail about 2 times a year. I
> have
>>> suggested
>>>> in the past and will suggest again that VJC adopt a trail and
>> since
>>> the VJC
>>>> has had annual clean ups at the Coves I think we should adopt
> it.
>>> So what
>>>> you all think?
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: kmichael02 [mailto:kmichael02@y...]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 8:57 AM
>>>> To: az_vjc@y...
>>>> Subject: [az_vjc] ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Club or no club...why not try to get constant exposure...such
> as
>>>> Adopting a section of highway or something...not sure if this
> has
>>>> ever been brought up but it gets you a sign, it's good for the
>>>> community, it doesn't take a long time to complete, it's easy
> to
>> do
>>>> and people notice Signs as well as 25 jeeps on the side of a
>>>> highway...
>>>>
>>>> when a news chopper flys over and states there's a bottle neck
> on
>>>> such and such...and then flys in for a closer look and it's b/c
>>>> people are rubber necking to watch a bunch of 4wheelers
> cleaning
>> up
>>>> the environment, exposure in a positive manner....[assuming no
>> one
>>>> wrecks b/c of it ;)]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> just a thought
>>>>
>>>> michael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


68364 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 2:47pm
Subject: Re: Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a plea


Actually, a motor swap clinic would be fun.

On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 01:04 PM, purple wrote:

> Thanks again for the kill switch help Joe , and tell Joyce thanks for
> watching my son Dillon . He loved your orange cat . Can we have a
> motor swap
> clinic next ?? ( just kidding ....)
> Thanks again ,
> Purple .
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: roy95yj [mailto:roy95yj@y...]
> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 7:05 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a plea
>
>
>>
> Joe,
> What more can I say that hasn't already been said,,, Thanks for
> putting on the clinic.
>
> Thanks to everyone who helped.
>
> There is one thing, next time we need some younger jeepers with good
> eyes, we're getting to old to see some of the small wiring.
>
>
>
> Roy
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


68365 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 2:52pm
Subject: [FS] Five 225/75R15 tires with jeep rims and crome caps


Price: Best offer

Contact: JMWJeepin@aol.com

I have five 225/75R15 radial tires with jeep rims and four crome caps. The tires are about eight months old.

Jason Wood


68366 From: Joe-CJ7 <Joe-CJ7@j...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 2:52pm
Subject: RE: Re: New poll for az_vjc


I agree 100%!!!!

Joe Kearney
Joe-CJ7@J...


-----Original Message-----
From: jeepin_in_az [mailto:jeepin_in_az@y...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 12:31 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: New poll for az_vjc

The AZVJC will NEVER join the ASA4WDC because we are an un-organised
club. The VJC will NEVER organise.....That is a good thing.

Mike Baney




--- In az_vjc@y..., "Leonard Garcia" <leonardg@a...> wrote:
> Or "No, but I would like AzVJC to join"
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe West" <joe.west@s...> wrote:
> > There's no case for the obvious:
> >
> > No, but I would like to join
> >
> > Joe West
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: az_vjc@y... [mailto:az_vjc@y...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 10:20 AM
> > To: az_vjc@y...
> > Subject: [az_vjc] New poll for az_vjc
> >
> >
> > Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
> > az_vjc group:
> >
> > Do you belong to ASA4WDC?
> > This is just an informational poll.
> > Names won't be seen. I would like the
> > entire group to give some feedback on
> > this. If there are catagories I missed,
> > I apologize.
> >
> > o Yes, I purchased an individual membership
> > o Yes, I belong through another club
> > o No, I don't care to join
> > o No, I don't know nothing about ASA4WDC
> > o No, I don't live in Az
> >
> >
> > To vote, please visit the following web page:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/surveys?id=993003
> >
> > Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
> > not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo!
Groups
> > web site listed above.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


68367 From: Bill Mish <yldkat55@h...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: 4-wheelers plight


Hey James,
Just a quick observation:
If anywhere near half of us are "personal" members of ASA, then that makes
us at least one of the single largest contributors to the ASA, if not the
largest.
My point is this:
It would seem we are giving the ASA allot of money and resource and we are
not reaping the benefit of REPRESENTATION.

Clubs get delegates that vote for stuff. We don't.

That is probably why we are in the dark about the inner workings of the
Jamboree.
I for one would rather recognize the problem and try to do something about
it, that way when I gripe about something, I feel like I'm at least
justified.

Nothing personal directed at you at all.
Just taking it a step further to explain my thinking.

Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Towle" <James.Towle@a...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 11:47 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: 4-wheelers plight


> Neal,
>
> My friend, this is in no way intended to be inflamatory. If I get
> heated throw some water on your computer, lol. I thought about making
> this a private message, but then decided against it.
>
> First of all, I knew we were in trouble before Saturday. When all the
> trails cancellations started being published, I knew. When the camp
> ground situation was published, I knew. And someone with authority at
> ASA4WDC should have known, I bet they did.
>
> I don't believe, that making AzVJC an "organized" club will do any
> good for the off roading community, (there I said it, this is a
> switch for me, I know). Please, let me tell you why; AzVJC gives
> people a starting point into 4 wheeling without having to be tied up
> in all the organzational matters. I for one would not be an ASA4WDC
> member if it wasn't for AzVJC. Without giving people this starting
> point more people will be ignorant to what is going on in the 4
> wheeling community.
> Some people I have talked to have expressed that ASA4WDC is not doing
> what they should be doing. By this I mean, they have not won any big
> battles on land issues lately.
> Let me give you this analogy, people don't like the Cardinals right
> now, why? Because they aren't winners and haven't shown that they
> could win. I bet, that when they start winning their stadium will go
> through with no problem, (backing a winner).
>
> If ASA4WDC just needs to increase their numbers, then they should go
> after individual memberships. Make it easier for people like Mike C.
> to put a link on the AzVJC web site, asking people to join ASA4WDC.
>
> AzVJC, I believe, has more members than ASA4WDC. One of the reasons
> for the poll I started was to see how many members of AzVJC are, in
> fact, members of ASA4WDC. I am guessing there are almost a half. Thus
> making the issue of adding numbers virtually irrelevent because, only
> about half of AzVJC members are actually active, if that much.
>
> I don't know who was responsible for the mis-fortunes of this last
> weekend. IMO it was 50/50, 50% ASA4WDC management and 50% others, but
> given this, it is up to the management to make sure the others are
> taken care of. Thus, IMO the management sucked.
>
> Go ahead and let me know where there is flaws in my logic, I have big
> shoulders.
>
> --James
>
> PS - I hope you are still my friend. You are a good guy, a
> little "hot headed", but a good guy.
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., <gotrox@c...> wrote:
> > After talking to Francisco Mendoza on Saturday, seeing first hand
> the events that transpired with the BLM, AZ Fish and Game, and the
> Sheriff, I and several others, came to the same conclusion:
> >
> > We are in trouble!!
> >
> > I couldn't help but wonder if the AZVJC would be willing to risk
> losing any ground to `wheel on over something as simple as a little
> more structured approach in maintaining our hobby.
> >
> > It has been stated time and time again in this group
> about "Organization" being a losing battle. I think we "4wheelers"
> need to be more organized in our fight. Now I know what some of you
> are going to say right off the get go. But if we plan to enjoy this
> sport that we all partake in, then this organization of interests and
> efforts needs to happen. I'm not saying that the AZVJC needs to
> become an incorporated body, but belonging to ASA4WDC will help. You
> can belong to other clubs that are part of ASA4WDC. Many of us are
> already members indirectly through a 4WD club, but membership can be
> individual too. My point is that we need to collectively show our
> support and share one voice through the ASA4WDC - to keep the freedom
> that we enjoy as far as using public lands. If everyone waits for
> the next guy or next club to make our case with the land departments,
> we'll lose any progress we've made to keep our trails open.
> >
> > As far as the trails that were being closed this weekend -
> Jawbreaker was closed by the BLM - this came from Francisco Mendoza
> himself. Martinez, Overdose, Bad Medicine and Brake Line - those
> were closed by the ASA4WDC due to private land owner liability
> issues. Whether we agree or not, it was ASA4WDC's decision, aiming
> to prevent more land issues with the BLM about traveling over private
> property.
> >
> > Are you all sure this is acceptable to you?
> >
> > Was there something that could have been done, but wasn't?
> >
> > Perhaps there is a way to become more actively involved in the
> ASA4WDC, to ensure our voice is heard, and not just called on
> for "Land issue" meetings when they need a sea of red shirts.
> >
> > After seeing so many AZVJC stickers at the Jamboree, it seems like
> we have alot to lose here.
> >
> > I'm sure I will be flamed for bringing up this issue of
> organization, but I will endure all that because I believe the topic
> must be seriously discussed to ensure that we cover all perspectives
> and ultimately achieve a collective voice to fight for our rights as
> 4 wheelers and access to our land.
> >
> > Neal Han****
> > Arizona Rock Crawlers / AZVJC
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>


68368 From: The Acuna Family <mkacuna@c...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:07pm
Subject: Re: Road Hazard Help


If the tire is brand new, I think Rick Beer will sell you a road hazard
certificate for it. He is at the 3rd ave and Bell Rd store. 602-942-9603

Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason Jolley" <jaedon511@y...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 11:17 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Road Hazard Help


> Just bought some 35 inch goodyear from a guy that doesnt sell any
> warranty on his tires.Does anyone know of any tire company that will
> sell me a road hazard warranty for these tires? thanks
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


68369 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:11pm
Subject: Re: 4-wheelers plight


Bill,

True enough and good point. I guess that means I can't ***** about
ASA representation until I choose a path that gets me
representation :D .
It is looking like half of the people that are ASA members belong to
another "club".


--James

--- In az_vjc@y..., "Bill Mish" <yldkat55@h...> wrote:
> Hey James,
> Just a quick observation:
> If anywhere near half of us are "personal" members of ASA, then
that makes
> us at least one of the single largest contributors to the ASA, if
not the
> largest.
> My point is this:
> It would seem we are giving the ASA allot of money and resource and
we are
> not reaping the benefit of REPRESENTATION.
>
> Clubs get delegates that vote for stuff. We don't.
>
> That is probably why we are in the dark about the inner workings of
the
> Jamboree.
> I for one would rather recognize the problem and try to do
something about
> it, that way when I gripe about something, I feel like I'm at least
> justified.
>
> Nothing personal directed at you at all.
> Just taking it a step further to explain my thinking.
>
> Bill Mish
> 1955 Willys CJ3B
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "James Towle" <James.Towle@a...>
> To: <az_vjc@y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 11:47 AM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: 4-wheelers plight
>
>
> > Neal,
> >
> > My friend, this is in no way intended to be inflamatory. If I get
> > heated throw some water on your computer, lol. I thought about
making
> > this a private message, but then decided against it.
> >
> > First of all, I knew we were in trouble before Saturday. When all
the
> > trails cancellations started being published, I knew. When the
camp
> > ground situation was published, I knew. And someone with
authority at
> > ASA4WDC should have known, I bet they did.
> >
> > I don't believe, that making AzVJC an "organized" club will do any
> > good for the off roading community, (there I said it, this is a
> > switch for me, I know). Please, let me tell you why; AzVJC gives
> > people a starting point into 4 wheeling without having to be tied
up
> > in all the organzational matters. I for one would not be an
ASA4WDC
> > member if it wasn't for AzVJC. Without giving people this starting
> > point more people will be ignorant to what is going on in the 4
> > wheeling community.
> > Some people I have talked to have expressed that ASA4WDC is not
doing
> > what they should be doing. By this I mean, they have not won any
big
> > battles on land issues lately.
> > Let me give you this analogy, people don't like the Cardinals
right
> > now, why? Because they aren't winners and haven't shown that they
> > could win. I bet, that when they start winning their stadium will
go
> > through with no problem, (backing a winner).
> >
> > If ASA4WDC just needs to increase their numbers, then they should
go
> > after individual memberships. Make it easier for people like Mike
C.
> > to put a link on the AzVJC web site, asking people to join
ASA4WDC.
> >
> > AzVJC, I believe, has more members than ASA4WDC. One of the
reasons
> > for the poll I started was to see how many members of AzVJC are,
in
> > fact, members of ASA4WDC. I am guessing there are almost a half.
Thus
> > making the issue of adding numbers virtually irrelevent because,
only
> > about half of AzVJC members are actually active, if that much.
> >
> > I don't know who was responsible for the mis-fortunes of this last
> > weekend. IMO it was 50/50, 50% ASA4WDC management and 50% others,
but
> > given this, it is up to the management to make sure the others are
> > taken care of. Thus, IMO the management sucked.
> >
> > Go ahead and let me know where there is flaws in my logic, I have
big
> > shoulders.
> >
> > --James
> >
> > PS - I hope you are still my friend. You are a good guy, a
> > little "hot headed", but a good guy.
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., <gotrox@c...> wrote:
> > > After talking to Francisco Mendoza on Saturday, seeing first
hand
> > the events that transpired with the BLM, AZ Fish and Game, and the
> > Sheriff, I and several others, came to the same conclusion:
> > >
> > > We are in trouble!!
> > >
> > > I couldn't help but wonder if the AZVJC would be willing to risk
> > losing any ground to `wheel on over something as simple as a
little
> > more structured approach in maintaining our hobby.
> > >
> > > It has been stated time and time again in this group
> > about "Organization" being a losing battle. I think we "4wheelers"
> > need to be more organized in our fight. Now I know what some of
you
> > are going to say right off the get go. But if we plan to enjoy
this
> > sport that we all partake in, then this organization of interests
and
> > efforts needs to happen. I'm not saying that the AZVJC needs to
> > become an incorporated body, but belonging to ASA4WDC will help.
You
> > can belong to other clubs that are part of ASA4WDC. Many of us
are
> > already members indirectly through a 4WD club, but membership can
be
> > individual too. My point is that we need to collectively show our
> > support and share one voice through the ASA4WDC - to keep the
freedom
> > that we enjoy as far as using public lands. If everyone waits for
> > the next guy or next club to make our case with the land
departments,
> > we'll lose any progress we've made to keep our trails open.
> > >
> > > As far as the trails that were being closed this weekend -
> > Jawbreaker was closed by the BLM - this came from Francisco
Mendoza
> > himself. Martinez, Overdose, Bad Medicine and Brake Line - those
> > were closed by the ASA4WDC due to private land owner liability
> > issues. Whether we agree or not, it was ASA4WDC's decision,
aiming
> > to prevent more land issues with the BLM about traveling over
private
> > property.
> > >
> > > Are you all sure this is acceptable to you?
> > >
> > > Was there something that could have been done, but wasn't?
> > >
> > > Perhaps there is a way to become more actively involved in the
> > ASA4WDC, to ensure our voice is heard, and not just called on
> > for "Land issue" meetings when they need a sea of red shirts.
> > >
> > > After seeing so many AZVJC stickers at the Jamboree, it seems
like
> > we have alot to lose here.
> > >
> > > I'm sure I will be flamed for bringing up this issue of
> > organization, but I will endure all that because I believe the
topic
> > must be seriously discussed to ensure that we cover all
perspectives
> > and ultimately achieve a collective voice to fight for our rights
as
> > 4 wheelers and access to our land.
> > >
> > > Neal Han****
> > > Arizona Rock Crawlers / AZVJC
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >


68370 From: Bill Mish <yldkat55@h...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:16pm
Subject: Re: Re: 4-wheelers plight


BTW, my messages to you are still rejected, are you still angry with me
about something?
It's not because I didn't wave to you Sunday on the Highway, is it?
Heheehee!!





>From: "James Towle" <James.Towle@a...>
>To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [az_vjc] Re: 4-wheelers plight
>Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:11:31 -0000
>
>Bill,
>
>True enough and good point. I guess that means I can't ***** about
>ASA representation until I choose a path that gets me
>representation :D .
>It is looking like half of the people that are ASA members belong to
>another "club".
>
>
>--James
>
>--- In az_vjc@y..., "Bill Mish" <yldkat55@h...> wrote:
> > Hey James,
> > Just a quick observation:
> > If anywhere near half of us are "personal" members of ASA, then
>that makes
> > us at least one of the single largest contributors to the ASA, if
>not the
> > largest.
> > My point is this:
> > It would seem we are giving the ASA allot of money and resource and
>we are
> > not reaping the benefit of REPRESENTATION.
> >
> > Clubs get delegates that vote for stuff. We don't.
> >
> > That is probably why we are in the dark about the inner workings of
>the
> > Jamboree.
> > I for one would rather recognize the problem and try to do
>something about
> > it, that way when I gripe about something, I feel like I'm at least
> > justified.
> >
> > Nothing personal directed at you at all.
> > Just taking it a step further to explain my thinking.
> >
> > Bill Mish
> > 1955 Willys CJ3B
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "James Towle" <James.Towle@a...>
> > To: <az_vjc@y...>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 11:47 AM
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: 4-wheelers plight
> >
> >
> > > Neal,
> > >
> > > My friend, this is in no way intended to be inflamatory. If I get
> > > heated throw some water on your computer, lol. I thought about
>making
> > > this a private message, but then decided against it.
> > >
> > > First of all, I knew we were in trouble before Saturday. When all
>the
> > > trails cancellations started being published, I knew. When the
>camp
> > > ground situation was published, I knew. And someone with
>authority at
> > > ASA4WDC should have known, I bet they did.
> > >
> > > I don't believe, that making AzVJC an "organized" club will do any
> > > good for the off roading community, (there I said it, this is a
> > > switch for me, I know). Please, let me tell you why; AzVJC gives
> > > people a starting point into 4 wheeling without having to be tied
>up
> > > in all the organzational matters. I for one would not be an
>ASA4WDC
> > > member if it wasn't for AzVJC. Without giving people this starting
> > > point more people will be ignorant to what is going on in the 4
> > > wheeling community.
> > > Some people I have talked to have expressed that ASA4WDC is not
>doing
> > > what they should be doing. By this I mean, they have not won any
>big
> > > battles on land issues lately.
> > > Let me give you this analogy, people don't like the Cardinals
>right
> > > now, why? Because they aren't winners and haven't shown that they
> > > could win. I bet, that when they start winning their stadium will
>go
> > > through with no problem, (backing a winner).
> > >
> > > If ASA4WDC just needs to increase their numbers, then they should
>go
> > > after individual memberships. Make it easier for people like Mike
>C.
> > > to put a link on the AzVJC web site, asking people to join
>ASA4WDC.
> > >
> > > AzVJC, I believe, has more members than ASA4WDC. One of the
>reasons
> > > for the poll I started was to see how many members of AzVJC are,
>in
> > > fact, members of ASA4WDC. I am guessing there are almost a half.
>Thus
> > > making the issue of adding numbers virtually irrelevent because,
>only
> > > about half of AzVJC members are actually active, if that much.
> > >
> > > I don't know who was responsible for the mis-fortunes of this last
> > > weekend. IMO it was 50/50, 50% ASA4WDC management and 50% others,
>but
> > > given this, it is up to the management to make sure the others are
> > > taken care of. Thus, IMO the management sucked.
> > >
> > > Go ahead and let me know where there is flaws in my logic, I have
>big
> > > shoulders.
> > >
> > > --James
> > >
> > > PS - I hope you are still my friend. You are a good guy, a
> > > little "hot headed", but a good guy.
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@y..., <gotrox@c...> wrote:
> > > > After talking to Francisco Mendoza on Saturday, seeing first
>hand
> > > the events that transpired with the BLM, AZ Fish and Game, and the
> > > Sheriff, I and several others, came to the same conclusion:
> > > >
> > > > We are in trouble!!
> > > >
> > > > I couldn't help but wonder if the AZVJC would be willing to risk
> > > losing any ground to `wheel on over something as simple as a
>little
> > > more structured approach in maintaining our hobby.
> > > >
> > > > It has been stated time and time again in this group
> > > about "Organization" being a losing battle. I think we "4wheelers"
> > > need to be more organized in our fight. Now I know what some of
>you
> > > are going to say right off the get go. But if we plan to enjoy
>this
> > > sport that we all partake in, then this organization of interests
>and
> > > efforts needs to happen. I'm not saying that the AZVJC needs to
> > > become an incorporated body, but belonging to ASA4WDC will help.
>You
> > > can belong to other clubs that are part of ASA4WDC. Many of us
>are
> > > already members indirectly through a 4WD club, but membership can
>be
> > > individual too. My point is that we need to collectively show our
> > > support and share one voice through the ASA4WDC - to keep the
>freedom
> > > that we enjoy as far as using public lands. If everyone waits for
> > > the next guy or next club to make our case with the land
>departments,
> > > we'll lose any progress we've made to keep our trails open.
> > > >
> > > > As far as the trails that were being closed this weekend -
> > > Jawbreaker was closed by the BLM - this came from Francisco
>Mendoza
> > > himself. Martinez, Overdose, Bad Medicine and Brake Line - those
> > > were closed by the ASA4WDC due to private land owner liability
> > > issues. Whether we agree or not, it was ASA4WDC's decision,
>aiming
> > > to prevent more land issues with the BLM about traveling over
>private
> > > property.
> > > >
> > > > Are you all sure this is acceptable to you?
> > > >
> > > > Was there something that could have been done, but wasn't?
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps there is a way to become more actively involved in the
> > > ASA4WDC, to ensure our voice is heard, and not just called on
> > > for "Land issue" meetings when they need a sea of red shirts.
> > > >
> > > > After seeing so many AZVJC stickers at the Jamboree, it seems
>like
> > > we have alot to lose here.
> > > >
> > > > I'm sure I will be flamed for bringing up this issue of
> > > organization, but I will endure all that because I believe the
>topic
> > > must be seriously discussed to ensure that we cover all
>perspectives
> > > and ultimately achieve a collective voice to fight for our rights
>as
> > > 4 wheelers and access to our land.
> > > >
> > > > Neal Han****
> > > > Arizona Rock Crawlers / AZVJC
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


__________________________________________________ _______________
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68371 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:26pm
Subject: Re: Re: New poll for az_vjc


I agree with his agreeing

On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 02:52 PM, Joe-CJ7 wrote:

> I agree 100%!!!!
>
> Joe Kearney
> Joe-CJ7@J...
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jeepin_in_az [mailto:jeepin_in_az@y...]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 12:31 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: New poll for az_vjc
>
> The AZVJC will NEVER join the ASA4WDC because we are an un-organised
> club. The VJC will NEVER organise.....That is a good thing.
>
> Mike Baney
>
>
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Leonard Garcia" <leonardg@a...> wrote:
>> Or "No, but I would like AzVJC to join"
>>
>> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe West" <joe.west@s...> wrote:
>>> There's no case for the obvious:
>>>
>>> No, but I would like to join
>>>
>>> Joe West
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: az_vjc@y... [mailto:az_vjc@y...]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 10:20 AM
>>> To: az_vjc@y...
>>> Subject: [az_vjc] New poll for az_vjc
>>>
>>>
>>> Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
>>> az_vjc group:
>>>
>>> Do you belong to ASA4WDC?
>>> This is just an informational poll.
>>> Names won't be seen. I would like the
>>> entire group to give some feedback on
>>> this. If there are catagories I missed,
>>> I apologize.
>>>
>>> o Yes, I purchased an individual membership
>>> o Yes, I belong through another club
>>> o No, I don't care to join
>>> o No, I don't know nothing about ASA4WDC
>>> o No, I don't live in Az
>>>
>>>
>>> To vote, please visit the following web page:
>>>
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/surveys?id=993003
>>>
>>> Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
>>> not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo!
> Groups
>>> web site listed above.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


68372 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:26pm
Subject: Re: AZ_VJC Splinter Clubs... was RE: Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure


I agree with Joe too

On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 10:59 AM, Joe West wrote:

> Hi Scott,
>
> I agree with you... I believe that it would be difficult to garner many
> people from the azvjc into an organized club.
>
> The good news is that people have successfully created splinter clubs
> from the Azvjc... I can think of at least three clubs who began from
> the
> Azvjc and I suspect that there are many more.
>
> The AZVJC must be left as it is... while there are some who whine about
> off-topic posts and ignorant/arrogant/stupid/argumentative/violent/(you
> get the point) posts from the Azvjc list; they have an option if they
> don't like it:
>
> They quit.
>
> This is an excellent solution for those who don't like whatever the
> current incarnation of the Azvjc is. Our club, unorganized as it is,
> is
> infinitely better than any organized club in existence (this is my
> opinion of course). We have the best of all worlds and while sometimes
> it takes a thick skin to survive here... most, including myself,
> thrive.
>
> I'm sure we'll soon have some tearful pleading that we organize the
> Azvjc... (it has been at least 6 months since the last major
> "organization" attempt), those who long for a "real" club should do as
> others have done and start your own club.
>
> The only drawback to the splinter groups is that we loose some very
> knowledgeable talent when this happens... it is sad to see some of our
> members leave, but it is for the best if they do not like things here.
> Sometimes people who create splinter clubs find the time to stay on
> with
> the Azvjc; and this is truly the best of all worlds.
>
> As far as the exposure topic goes... if you want exposure for our club,
> all you need to do is pick a subject matter (trail upkeep, adopt a
> highway, take supplies to Payson for the fire relief fund, coves
> cleanup, etc.) and run with it.
> You get an opportunity to be a leader, and try out your skills as a
> promoter for your pet project, whatever it may be.
>
> Note to splinter clubs:
>
> If you would like to let everyone know about your organized club, now
> would be a good time to increase your ranks if you so choose. Shoot
> the
> list your club name and contact information (President, etc) so that
> Azvjc members who wish to join an organized club can find you. I
> realize that a few of the Azvjc splinter clubs are exclusive by
> invitation only and those clubs obviously won't want to respond to this
> request.
>
> Long live Anarchy in the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club!
>
> Joe West
> Certified Public Anarchist
>
>
>
>
> There is no way all of the list members would join the organized club.
> I'm betting you'd be lucky to get 10%. Really lucky.
>
> I like the AZVJC the way it is. Despite some of the arguments I've seen
> I have seen more AZVJC members at the land use meetings than all the
> organized clubs combined. I have seen the AZVJC get more exposure than
> any other club.
>
> Like always, those that desire more can form a club or join an existing
> one. The AZVJC has always been more of an information exchange than a
> true club anyway. Its working wonderfully as is. Why screw that up?
>
> Scott K
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


68374 From: Bill Mish <yldkat55@h...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:41pm
Subject: Spook Rally


For those of you who are actually participating in the Rally, stop by and
say Hi to me!

For the rest of you the following is from Nasser:

The Spook Rally is an annual event that the Arizona Rough Riders hold
around Halloween.

Here are some IMPORTANT details:

The registration deadline for this year's event has come and gone!

The event is only for the registered participants. We are accepting
no "walk-in entries" this year since there is a long stand-by list.
The names are picked in a lottery fashion, and this year 100 names
were drawn from of 150+ entries.

This event is NOT OPEN to unregistered public! The agencies are
watching us here as well. It takes the Rough Riders about six months
to plan this event and all we can accommodate are the folks that have
already registered (100 or so vehicles).

If anybody is interested on being on the list for next year's Rally
drawing please send me an email OFF LINE to nasser88@c... and I'll
make sure that your name gets on the list. You will receive a
registration package in August or September.

Nasser P.
AZVJC / AZ Rough Riders



Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B


68375 From: Leonard Garcia <leonardg@a...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:28pm
Subject: Poll numbers not accurate picture


I don't think the poll numbers are going to give you an accurate
picture (maybe just a trend). As of now, out of 22 replies, 12 (54%)
are ASA4WDC members, directly or indirectly.

This does not mean that out of over 2,100 members over a 1,000 are
ASA4WDC members, since many members are inactive & only 1,284 members
are even in this Yahoo Group to cast votes.

Is there a better source somewhere?


68376 From: jeepin_in_az <jeepin_in_az@y...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:30pm
Subject: AZ_VJC Splinter Clubs... was RE: Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure


Damn Chris! Can you agree to give me some money??? :)

Mike Baney



--- In az_vjc@y..., Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...> wrote:
> I agree with Joe too
>
> On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 10:59 AM, Joe West wrote:
>
> > Hi Scott,
> >
> > I agree with you... I believe that it would be difficult to
garner many
> > people from the azvjc into an organized club.
> >
> > The good news is that people have successfully created splinter
clubs
> > from the Azvjc... I can think of at least three clubs who began
from
> > the
> > Azvjc and I suspect that there are many more.
> >
> > The AZVJC must be left as it is... while there are some who whine
about
> > off-topic posts and
ignorant/arrogant/stupid/argumentative/violent/(you
> > get the point) posts from the Azvjc list; they have an option if
they
> > don't like it:
> >
> > They quit.
> >
> > This is an excellent solution for those who don't like whatever
the
> > current incarnation of the Azvjc is. Our club, unorganized as it
is,
> > is
> > infinitely better than any organized club in existence (this is my
> > opinion of course). We have the best of all worlds and while
sometimes
> > it takes a thick skin to survive here... most, including myself,
> > thrive.
> >
> > I'm sure we'll soon have some tearful pleading that we organize
the
> > Azvjc... (it has been at least 6 months since the last major
> > "organization" attempt), those who long for a "real" club should
do as
> > others have done and start your own club.
> >
> > The only drawback to the splinter groups is that we loose some
very
> > knowledgeable talent when this happens... it is sad to see some
of our
> > members leave, but it is for the best if they do not like things
here.
> > Sometimes people who create splinter clubs find the time to stay
on
> > with
> > the Azvjc; and this is truly the best of all worlds.
> >
> > As far as the exposure topic goes... if you want exposure for our
club,
> > all you need to do is pick a subject matter (trail upkeep, adopt a
> > highway, take supplies to Payson for the fire relief fund, coves
> > cleanup, etc.) and run with it.
> > You get an opportunity to be a leader, and try out your skills as
a
> > promoter for your pet project, whatever it may be.
> >
> > Note to splinter clubs:
> >
> > If you would like to let everyone know about your organized club,
now
> > would be a good time to increase your ranks if you so choose.
Shoot
> > the
> > list your club name and contact information (President, etc) so
that
> > Azvjc members who wish to join an organized club can find you. I
> > realize that a few of the Azvjc splinter clubs are exclusive by
> > invitation only and those clubs obviously won't want to respond
to this
> > request.
> >
> > Long live Anarchy in the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club!
> >
> > Joe West
> > Certified Public Anarchist
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > There is no way all of the list members would join the organized
club.
> > I'm betting you'd be lucky to get 10%. Really lucky.
> >
> > I like the AZVJC the way it is. Despite some of the arguments
I've seen
> > I have seen more AZVJC members at the land use meetings than all
the
> > organized clubs combined. I have seen the AZVJC get more exposure
than
> > any other club.
> >
> > Like always, those that desire more can form a club or join an
existing
> > one. The AZVJC has always been more of an information exchange
than a
> > true club anyway. Its working wonderfully as is. Why screw that
up?
> >
> > Scott K
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >


68377 From: Bill Mish <yldkat55@h...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:30pm
Subject: Re: Re: New poll for az_vjc


SHEEP!!!!!!!!
Hahahahahahaha!
Just kidding :P






>From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
>To: "Joe-CJ7" <Joe-CJ7@j...>
>CC: "jeepin_in_az" <jeepin_in_az@y...>, <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: New poll for az_vjc
>Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:26:04 -0700
>
>I agree with his agreeing
>
>On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 02:52 PM, Joe-CJ7 wrote:
>
> > I agree 100%!!!!
> >
> > Joe Kearney
> > Joe-CJ7@J...
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: jeepin_in_az [mailto:jeepin_in_az@y...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 12:31 PM
> > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: New poll for az_vjc
> >
> > The AZVJC will NEVER join the ASA4WDC because we are an un-organised
> > club. The VJC will NEVER organise.....That is a good thing.
> >
> > Mike Baney
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Leonard Garcia" <leonardg@a...> wrote:
> >> Or "No, but I would like AzVJC to join"
> >>
> >> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe West" <joe.west@s...> wrote:
> >>> There's no case for the obvious:
> >>>
> >>> No, but I would like to join
> >>>
> >>> Joe West
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: az_vjc@y... [mailto:az_vjc@y...]
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 10:20 AM
> >>> To: az_vjc@y...
> >>> Subject: [az_vjc] New poll for az_vjc
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
> >>> az_vjc group:
> >>>
> >>> Do you belong to ASA4WDC?
> >>> This is just an informational poll.
> >>> Names won't be seen. I would like the
> >>> entire group to give some feedback on
> >>> this. If there are catagories I missed,
> >>> I apologize.
> >>>
> >>> o Yes, I purchased an individual membership
> >>> o Yes, I belong through another club
> >>> o No, I don't care to join
> >>> o No, I don't know nothing about ASA4WDC
> >>> o No, I don't live in Az
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> To vote, please visit the following web page:
> >>>
> >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/surveys?id=993003
> >>>
> >>> Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
> >>> not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo!
> > Groups
> >>> web site listed above.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


__________________________________________________ _______________
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68378 From: Joe-CJ7 <Joe-CJ7@j...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:32pm
Subject: RE: Re: New poll for az_vjc


Yeah so! I am a AZ Cardinal's fan now also,,,,, well not that far.


Joe Kearney
Joe-CJ7@J...


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Mish [mailto:yldkat55@h...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 3:30 PM
To: rv6a@m...; Joe-CJ7
Cc: jeepin_in_az@y...; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: New poll for az_vjc

SHEEP!!!!!!!!
Hahahahahahaha!
Just kidding :P






>From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
>To: "Joe-CJ7" <Joe-CJ7@j...>
>CC: "jeepin_in_az" <jeepin_in_az@y...>, <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: New poll for az_vjc
>Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:26:04 -0700
>
>I agree with his agreeing
>
>On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 02:52 PM, Joe-CJ7 wrote:
>
> > I agree 100%!!!!
> >
> > Joe Kearney
> > Joe-CJ7@J...
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: jeepin_in_az [mailto:jeepin_in_az@y...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 12:31 PM
> > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: New poll for az_vjc
> >
> > The AZVJC will NEVER join the ASA4WDC because we are an un-organised
> > club. The VJC will NEVER organise.....That is a good thing.
> >
> > Mike Baney
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Leonard Garcia" <leonardg@a...> wrote:
> >> Or "No, but I would like AzVJC to join"
> >>
> >> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe West" <joe.west@s...> wrote:
> >>> There's no case for the obvious:
> >>>
> >>> No, but I would like to join
> >>>
> >>> Joe West
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: az_vjc@y... [mailto:az_vjc@y...]
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 10:20 AM
> >>> To: az_vjc@y...
> >>> Subject: [az_vjc] New poll for az_vjc
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
> >>> az_vjc group:
> >>>
> >>> Do you belong to ASA4WDC?
> >>> This is just an informational poll.
> >>> Names won't be seen. I would like the
> >>> entire group to give some feedback on
> >>> this. If there are catagories I missed,
> >>> I apologize.
> >>>
> >>> o Yes, I purchased an individual membership
> >>> o Yes, I belong through another club
> >>> o No, I don't care to join
> >>> o No, I don't know nothing about ASA4WDC
> >>> o No, I don't live in Az
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> To vote, please visit the following web page:
> >>>
> >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/surveys?id=993003
> >>>
> >>> Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
> >>> not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo!
> > Groups
> >>> web site listed above.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


__________________________________________________ _______________
Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access.
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68379 From: Scott Kruize <skruize@c...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:31pm
Subject: RE: 4-wheelers plight


I agree with Joey.

Scott K





-----Original Message-----
From: DesertJeep [mailto:joey@d...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 11:56 AM
To: 'Bill Mish'; 'Stu Olson'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; gotrox@c...
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight


What about the another approach... Why couldn't ASA4WDC make an addendum
or exception to their rules to accept us (AzVJC) as we are and invite us
as a member. I would think that with the strength we have shown it might
be in there best interest to do so. I really think the only thing we
would have to do is nominate and vote for a representative(s) to speak
for AzVJC at ASA4WDC meetings.

Now whether this will prevent another fiasco like this years Jamboree, I
doubt it but you never know.

Truth be told I can care less what people, groups and clubs or the
general public think of AzVJC. As long as we are morally doing the right
thing and teach good practices by example I don't have a problem being
part of AzVJC.

Joey K
93YJ



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Mish [mailto:yldkat55@h...]
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 11:13 PM
To: Stu Olson; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; gotrox@c...
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight


Actually Stu, it is my hope that collectively we can have a larger voice
in the 4 wheeling arena, Right now, we simply aren't part of the process
unless we choose to be as individuals. Politicians listen to the voice
of one voter, they HEAR the voice of 2000 voters. I'm sure in your life
experience you may have found the same to be true. Although we may not
be talking about the formal arena of politics, 1 management agency may
more closely scrutinize the actions of an employee, of an RMP or land
use decision knowing that there are 2000 people strong behind that voice
in a meeting room.

The answer to some of your questions by the way, might be "NO", perhaps
time will tell you the answer to these since you have joined a club.
Personally, I think it may make you a more informed and EFFECTIVE voice.
Besides, who said anything about making you a better 4 wheeler? Maybe
You need to make THEM better! I think in your case Stu, you'd be better
off thinking along the lines of what you yourself are bringing to the
table, and not what you are going to get to eat!

What good would it have done if we had been a club?
Maybe you would have been the ASA4WDC delegate to remember to ask if
Jamboree things were cleared with the National Guard? Private land
owners? conflicting events, etc.

The fact that we are not more organized seems to make it easier for
those who wish to do nothing to continue to do so. It also makes it
EXTREMELY easy for those who are supposed to "Represent" us as
"Individuals" to become a little more "Comfy" in their lack of effort.

It's human nature when you are part of a "team effort" to pitch in and
do your share.(And also encourage others to join in).

There are those among us to which this 4 wheeling thing is just a fad,
like CB radios were or whatever, and that when it's no longer "Cool"
will sell their Jeeps, that's fine. But for those people who put forth a
serious effort to build their Jeeps into truly capable off road
machines, I say it might not be a bad idea to put as much effort into
making sure there's a place for you to enjoy it as you did to build it.
Organized 4 wheeling gives some people that capability. I recognize a
need for it now more than ever, and feel perhaps I should try to
convince others to feel the same way.

I know I didn't come near close to answering everything you had
questions about, but hopefully it helps.

Ohh yeah, no flame war here either Stu, we both know where the other is
coming from, (although I may not be as eloquent) and I respect your
input.

Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
To: "'Bill Mish'" <yldkat55@h...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>;
<gotrox@c...>
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 9:29 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight


> Bill, you bring up a good point.....and one that I have been thinking
> about during the past week or two.
>
> A couple of weeks ago, I joined an ASA4WDC affiliated club here in the

> area. So now, I am a card carrying certified member of the ASA4WDC,
> etc.
>
> However....the recent BLM land scoping meetings I attended had nothing

> to do with the fact that I was a club member. I stood up at both
> meetings and "had my day in court", so to speak. My comments went on
> record and from what I could tell, my input had no more nor no less
> weight than anyone else that spoke.
>
> This is my question, after thinking about all of these things over the

> past week. Will being an official club member cause me to make better

> comments at a land use meeting? Will it cause me to write more or
> better draft review comments on BLM management plans? Will I pick up
> more trash on the trail and bring it home with me? Will I attend more

> trail cleanups than I did before becoming an official member? Will I
> be able to better help new off-roaders learn the ropes by being a club

> member?
>
> In my opinion, I can do everyone one of the above things just as
> effectively as an individual as I can being a sanctioned club member.
> In fact....I did everyone one of those things, many times over, as an
> individual and un-member of the highly unorganized AZVJC.
>
> Now....don't get me wrong.....I am NOT against anyone joining a club
> in order to support our 4 wheelin' hobby (if I were, I would not have
> done it myself, right?).
>
> So....I am not trying to start a flame war here....but just trying to
> figure out if being a club member is really going to turn people into
> better off-roaders than they already are. If the answers to all of
> those questions above is yes, then I guess we need to make the AZVJC
> an official ASA4WDC affiliated club.
>
> Thinking more on this.....I suppose there is something to be said when

> you can tell a land management agency that you have 2100 club members
> who don't want a trail closed. However.....if we go the organized
> route and we charge dues (so that we can support the ASA and such), do

> you really think we are going to have 2100 dues paying members?
> Not.....I think we will have 20 or 30 or 40 or maybe even
> 50.....and.....we will have a LOT of people that still wheel together
> on the weekends, just like they have been doing for the past few
> years....and they won't belong to any club.
>
> I guess some of this is idle thinking that I have put into words.
> What I really want to see is more and more people become active in
> land management issues.....I want to see them attending
meetings....writing
> letters.....complaining to the higher ups about Fransisco.....etc.
If
> being a club will make that happen, then I am all for it. But deep
> down inside, I don't see more involvement from the people because we
> want them to belong to a club.
>
> On the flip side, you mentioned that in spite of all of the good and
> worthy things that the AZVJC did this past year, " they were hardly
> enough to keep us from being where we are in regards to the Jamboree
> and land issues
> in the Florence Junction area." So I ask you....what difference
would
> any of this have made if we HAD been a club? Hell.....some of were
even
> on TV (because we weren't in a club?) (please, no leather shorts
jokes!)
>
>
> The way I see it, the people that have the most to lose are the people

> who really love this sport.....and the way I see it, those that really

> do love this sport are already doing a lot of things to help prevent
> that from happening. The other folks are just sitting on the
> sidelines and enjoying the fruits of the labor of those that really do

> care.....and we know who those folks are, true?
>
> Anyone else have comments?
>
> Stu
> AZVJC / Arizona Lo Rangers / AZJC
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Mish [mailto:yldkat55@h...]
> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 9:10 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; gotrox@c...
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight
>
> I have resisted organization in the past, but now more than ever it
> seems to make perfect sense.
> Think about all the efforts put forth by this group in the last year,
> and
> although they had impact, and were very worthy, they were hardly
enough
> to
> keep us from being where we are in regards to the Jamboree and land
> issues in the Florence Junction area. That's pretty sad not only for
> me, but for
> allot of other people who attended the event.
>
> I saw allot of AZVJC people and stickers out there. Could it be that
> we were the largest group of participants?
> If so, then perhaps we have the most to lose.
>
> With the quality of people in this group, and their level of
> commitment to bettering our sport and public image, I think it would
> be a good choice. Especially if it means regaining control of the
> direction our sport is going.
>
>
> Bill Mish
> 1955 Willys CJ3B
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <gotrox@c...>
> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 8:24 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight
>
>
> After talking to Francisco Mendoza on Saturday, seeing first hand the
> events that transpired with the BLM, AZ Fish and Game, and the
> Sheriff, I and several others, came to the same conclusion:
>
> We are in trouble!!
>
> I couldn't help but wonder if the AZVJC would be willing to risk
> losing any ground to 'wheel on over something as simple as a little
> more structured approach in maintaining our hobby.
>
> It has been stated time and time again in this group about
> "Organization" being a losing battle. I think we "4wheelers" need to
> be more organized in
> our fight. Now I know what some of you are going to say right off the
> get
> go. But if we plan to enjoy this sport that we all partake in, then
this
> organization of interests and efforts needs to happen. I'm not saying
> that the AZVJC needs to become an incorporated body, but belonging to
ASA4WDC
> will help. You can belong to other clubs that are part of ASA4WDC.
Many
> of
> us are already members indirectly through a 4WD club, but membership
can
> be
> individual too. My point is that we need to collectively show our
> support and share one voice through the ASA4WDC - to keep the freedom
> that we enjoy
> as far as using public lands. If everyone waits for the next guy or
> next
> club to make our case with the land departments, we'll lose any
progress
> we've made to keep our trails open.
>
> As far as the trails that were being closed this weekend - Jawbreaker
> was closed by the BLM - this came from Francisco Mendoza himself.
> Martinez, Overdose, Bad Medicine and Brake Line - those were closed by

> the ASA4WDC due
> to private land owner liability issues. Whether we agree or not, it
was
> ASA4WDC's decision, aiming to prevent more land issues with the BLM
> about traveling over private property.
>
> Are you all sure this is acceptable to you?
>
> Was there something that could have been done, but wasn't?
>
> Perhaps there is a way to become more actively involved in the
> ASA4WDC, to ensure our voice is heard, and not just called on for
> "Land issue" meetings
> when they need a sea of red shirts.
>
> After seeing so many AZVJC stickers at the Jamboree, it seems like we
> have alot to lose here.
>
> I'm sure I will be flamed for bringing up this issue of organization,
> but I will endure all that because I believe the topic must be
> seriously discussed
> to ensure that we cover all perspectives and ultimately achieve a
> collective
> voice to fight for our rights as 4 wheelers and access to our land.
>
> Neal Han****
> Arizona Rock Crawlers / AZVJC
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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68380 From: Scott Kruize <skruize@c...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:34pm
Subject: RE: New poll for az_vjc


Not another stupid useless poll

Scott K





-----Original Message-----
From: ENB4W [mailto:enb4w@e...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 2:38 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] New poll for az_vjc




-----Original Message-----
From: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:az_vjc@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 10:20 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] New poll for az_vjc



Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
az_vjc group:

Do you belong to ASA4WDC?
This is just an informational poll.
Names won't be seen. I would like the
entire group to give some feedback on
this. If there are catagories I missed,
I apologize.

o Yes, I purchased an individual membership
X Yes, I belong through another club
o No, I don't care to join
o No, I don't know nothing about ASA4WDC
o No, I don't live in Az


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/surveys?id=993003

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!









Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/






Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


68381 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:39pm
Subject: Re: 4-wheelers plight


Still angry? Who me? I still see your messages, when they are on the
board. lol.... <truce>

Was that you I passed? I thought that big ol' tan thing on the
trailer looked familiar.

--James

--- In az_vjc@y..., "Bill Mish" <yldkat55@h...> wrote:
>
> BTW, my messages to you are still rejected, are you still angry
with me
> about something?
> It's not because I didn't wave to you Sunday on the Highway, is it?
> Heheehee!!
>
>


68382 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:38pm
Subject: RE: Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a plea


I up for that! You think Joe could gather all the required parts so we
could have it done in an evening at his house? ;)

Joey K
93YJ

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 2:47 PM
To: purple
Cc: roy95yj; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a
plea


Actually, a motor swap clinic would be fun.

On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 01:04 PM, purple wrote:

> Thanks again for the kill switch help Joe , and tell Joyce thanks for
> watching my son Dillon . He loved your orange cat . Can we have a
> motor swap clinic next ?? ( just kidding ....)
> Thanks again ,
> Purple .
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: roy95yj [mailto:roy95yj@y...]
> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 7:05 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Kill switch/Hood lock clinic success and a plea
>
>
>>
> Joe,
> What more can I say that hasn't already been said,,, Thanks for
> putting on the clinic.
>
> Thanks to everyone who helped.
>
> There is one thing, next time we need some younger jeepers with good
> eyes, we're getting to old to see some of the small wiring.
>
>
>
> Roy
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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68383 From: Scott Kruize <skruize@c...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:38pm
Subject: RE: Re: 4-wheelers plight


I see one big problem with the ASA. A couple years ago I joined.
Somewhere along the way my membership expired and I never received any
kind of renewal notice. So I probably haven't been an ASA member for at
least 2 years. I guess if they really wanted to boost their numbers they
could send out a renewal notice to at least keep their existing members.


Scott K





-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Mish [mailto:yldkat55@h...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 3:07 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; James Towle
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: 4-wheelers plight


Hey James,
Just a quick observation:
If anywhere near half of us are "personal" members of ASA, then that
makes us at least one of the single largest contributors to the ASA, if
not the largest. My point is this: It would seem we are giving the ASA
allot of money and resource and we are not reaping the benefit of
REPRESENTATION.

Clubs get delegates that vote for stuff. We don't.

That is probably why we are in the dark about the inner workings of the
Jamboree. I for one would rather recognize the problem and try to do
something about it, that way when I gripe about something, I feel like
I'm at least justified.

Nothing personal directed at you at all.
Just taking it a step further to explain my thinking.

Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Towle" <James.Towle@a...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 11:47 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: 4-wheelers plight


> Neal,
>
> My friend, this is in no way intended to be inflamatory. If I get
> heated throw some water on your computer, lol. I thought about making
> this a private message, but then decided against it.
>
> First of all, I knew we were in trouble before Saturday. When all the
> trails cancellations started being published, I knew. When the camp
> ground situation was published, I knew. And someone with authority at
> ASA4WDC should have known, I bet they did.
>
> I don't believe, that making AzVJC an "organized" club will do any
> good for the off roading community, (there I said it, this is a switch

> for me, I know). Please, let me tell you why; AzVJC gives people a
> starting point into 4 wheeling without having to be tied up in all the

> organzational matters. I for one would not be an ASA4WDC member if it
> wasn't for AzVJC. Without giving people this starting point more
> people will be ignorant to what is going on in the 4 wheeling
> community. Some people I have talked to have expressed that ASA4WDC is

> not doing what they should be doing. By this I mean, they have not won

> any big battles on land issues lately.
> Let me give you this analogy, people don't like the Cardinals right
> now, why? Because they aren't winners and haven't shown that they
> could win. I bet, that when they start winning their stadium will go
> through with no problem, (backing a winner).
>
> If ASA4WDC just needs to increase their numbers, then they should go
> after individual memberships. Make it easier for people like Mike C.
> to put a link on the AzVJC web site, asking people to join ASA4WDC.
>
> AzVJC, I believe, has more members than ASA4WDC. One of the reasons
> for the poll I started was to see how many members of AzVJC are, in
> fact, members of ASA4WDC. I am guessing there are almost a half. Thus
> making the issue of adding numbers virtually irrelevent because, only
> about half of AzVJC members are actually active, if that much.
>
> I don't know who was responsible for the mis-fortunes of this last
> weekend. IMO it was 50/50, 50% ASA4WDC management and 50% others, but
> given this, it is up to the management to make sure the others are
> taken care of. Thus, IMO the management sucked.
>
> Go ahead and let me know where there is flaws in my logic, I have big
> shoulders.
>
> --James
>
> PS - I hope you are still my friend. You are a good guy, a little "hot

> headed", but a good guy.
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., <gotrox@c...> wrote:
> > After talking to Francisco Mendoza on Saturday, seeing first hand
> the events that transpired with the BLM, AZ Fish and Game, and the
> Sheriff, I and several others, came to the same conclusion:
> >
> > We are in trouble!!
> >
> > I couldn't help but wonder if the AZVJC would be willing to risk
> losing any ground to `wheel on over something as simple as a little
> more structured approach in maintaining our hobby.
> >
> > It has been stated time and time again in this group
> about "Organization" being a losing battle. I think we "4wheelers"
> need to be more organized in our fight. Now I know what some of you
> are going to say right off the get go. But if we plan to enjoy this
> sport that we all partake in, then this organization of interests and
> efforts needs to happen. I'm not saying that the AZVJC needs to become

> an incorporated body, but belonging to ASA4WDC will help. You can
> belong to other clubs that are part of ASA4WDC. Many of us are
> already members indirectly through a 4WD club, but membership can be
> individual too. My point is that we need to collectively show our
> support and share one voice through the ASA4WDC - to keep the freedom
> that we enjoy as far as using public lands. If everyone waits for the

> next guy or next club to make our case with the land departments,
> we'll lose any progress we've made to keep our trails open.
> >
> > As far as the trails that were being closed this weekend -
> Jawbreaker was closed by the BLM - this came from Francisco Mendoza
> himself. Martinez, Overdose, Bad Medicine and Brake Line - those were

> closed by the ASA4WDC due to private land owner liability issues.
> Whether we agree or not, it was ASA4WDC's decision, aiming to prevent
> more land issues with the BLM about traveling over private property.
> >
> > Are you all sure this is acceptable to you?
> >
> > Was there something that could have been done, but wasn't?
> >
> > Perhaps there is a way to become more actively involved in the
> ASA4WDC, to ensure our voice is heard, and not just called on for
> "Land issue" meetings when they need a sea of red shirts.
> >
> > After seeing so many AZVJC stickers at the Jamboree, it seems like
> we have alot to lose here.
> >
> > I'm sure I will be flamed for bringing up this issue of
> organization, but I will endure all that because I believe the topic
> must be seriously discussed to ensure that we cover all perspectives
> and ultimately achieve a collective voice to fight for our rights as 4

> wheelers and access to our land.
> >
> > Neal Han****
> > Arizona Rock Crawlers / AZVJC
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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68384 From: Rob Williams <g_rob_williams@y...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:41pm
Subject: Re: LOOK a post that is NOT about ASA4WDC or Organization!


Do you remember if they have a website? If so what is the URL?? -Rob


--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe West" <joe.west@s...> wrote:
> No... Auto Safety house is where you buy the little fold down
steps for
> your rocker and corner panel guards. The lighthouse is the name
of the
> place which sells the stuff that David Withers was complaining
about.
> <grin>
> I think it's somewhere on the West side of town... bring your gun
if you
> decide to go down there.
> <laugh>
>
> Joe West
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Towle [mailto:James.Towle@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 1:33 PM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: LOOK a post that is NOT about ASA4WDC or
> Organization!
>
> LOL
>
> It was auto safety house, or something like that. Joey K. knows...
>
> I have another place at the end of my LED write up
> (http://www.dpgoffroad.com/tech/led.htm), you can compare to.
>
> --James
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Rob Williams" <g_rob_williams@y...> wrote:
> > First off... ROFLMAO (makes it hard to type also) What was the
name
> > of the place David Withers flamed for not having good customer
> > service that sells lights and stuff? I want to pick up some
round
> > LED lights for the back-o-da-rig. Didn't they also have a
website
> > you can order from so I don't have to drive my lazy *** down
there?
> > Sorry I just had to get at least one semi-Jeep related topic on
the
> > board today! LOL :) Besides I can sum up the posts in a couple
> > seconds...
> > post: hey lets organize so we can do nifty stuff
> > most replies: hell no!
> > other replies: you guys suck
> > general consensus: yup we suck... nothings changed!
> >
> > my opinion.... I love you guys!!! Who needs cable TV when you
got
> > the AZVJC!!! :) -Rob
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


68385 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:43pm
Subject: RE: Re: 4-wheelers plight


Shouldn't there be a delegate for non associated members?

ASA4WDC is sounding worse by the email. At least to me.

I am boycotting ASA4WDC by not joining until "personal" members get a
representative(s) that is proportional.

Joey K
93YJ

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Mish [mailto:yldkat55@h...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 3:07 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; James Towle
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: 4-wheelers plight


Hey James,
Just a quick observation:
If anywhere near half of us are "personal" members of ASA, then that
makes us at least one of the single largest contributors to the ASA, if
not the largest. My point is this: It would seem we are giving the ASA
allot of money and resource and we are not reaping the benefit of
REPRESENTATION.

Clubs get delegates that vote for stuff. We don't.

That is probably why we are in the dark about the inner workings of the
Jamboree. I for one would rather recognize the problem and try to do
something about it, that way when I gripe about something, I feel like
I'm at least justified.

Nothing personal directed at you at all.
Just taking it a step further to explain my thinking.

Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Towle" <James.Towle@a...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 11:47 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: 4-wheelers plight


> Neal,
>
> My friend, this is in no way intended to be inflamatory. If I get
> heated throw some water on your computer, lol. I thought about making
> this a private message, but then decided against it.
>
> First of all, I knew we were in trouble before Saturday. When all the
> trails cancellations started being published, I knew. When the camp
> ground situation was published, I knew. And someone with authority at
> ASA4WDC should have known, I bet they did.
>
> I don't believe, that making AzVJC an "organized" club will do any
> good for the off roading community, (there I said it, this is a switch

> for me, I know). Please, let me tell you why; AzVJC gives people a
> starting point into 4 wheeling without having to be tied up in all the

> organzational matters. I for one would not be an ASA4WDC member if it
> wasn't for AzVJC. Without giving people this starting point more
> people will be ignorant to what is going on in the 4 wheeling
> community. Some people I have talked to have expressed that ASA4WDC is

> not doing what they should be doing. By this I mean, they have not won

> any big battles on land issues lately.
> Let me give you this analogy, people don't like the Cardinals right
> now, why? Because they aren't winners and haven't shown that they
> could win. I bet, that when they start winning their stadium will go
> through with no problem, (backing a winner).
>
> If ASA4WDC just needs to increase their numbers, then they should go
> after individual memberships. Make it easier for people like Mike C.
> to put a link on the AzVJC web site, asking people to join ASA4WDC.
>
> AzVJC, I believe, has more members than ASA4WDC. One of the reasons
> for the poll I started was to see how many members of AzVJC are, in
> fact, members of ASA4WDC. I am guessing there are almost a half. Thus
> making the issue of adding numbers virtually irrelevent because, only
> about half of AzVJC members are actually active, if that much.
>
> I don't know who was responsible for the mis-fortunes of this last
> weekend. IMO it was 50/50, 50% ASA4WDC management and 50% others, but
> given this, it is up to the management to make sure the others are
> taken care of. Thus, IMO the management sucked.
>
> Go ahead and let me know where there is flaws in my logic, I have big
> shoulders.
>
> --James
>
> PS - I hope you are still my friend. You are a good guy, a little "hot

> headed", but a good guy.
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., <gotrox@c...> wrote:
> > After talking to Francisco Mendoza on Saturday, seeing first hand
> the events that transpired with the BLM, AZ Fish and Game, and the
> Sheriff, I and several others, came to the same conclusion:
> >
> > We are in trouble!!
> >
> > I couldn't help but wonder if the AZVJC would be willing to risk
> losing any ground to `wheel on over something as simple as a little
> more structured approach in maintaining our hobby.
> >
> > It has been stated time and time again in this group
> about "Organization" being a losing battle. I think we "4wheelers"
> need to be more organized in our fight. Now I know what some of you
> are going to say right off the get go. But if we plan to enjoy this
> sport that we all partake in, then this organization of interests and
> efforts needs to happen. I'm not saying that the AZVJC needs to become

> an incorporated body, but belonging to ASA4WDC will help. You can
> belong to other clubs that are part of ASA4WDC. Many of us are
> already members indirectly through a 4WD club, but membership can be
> individual too. My point is that we need to collectively show our
> support and share one voice through the ASA4WDC - to keep the freedom
> that we enjoy as far as using public lands. If everyone waits for the

> next guy or next club to make our case with the land departments,
> we'll lose any progress we've made to keep our trails open.
> >
> > As far as the trails that were being closed this weekend -
> Jawbreaker was closed by the BLM - this came from Francisco Mendoza
> himself. Martinez, Overdose, Bad Medicine and Brake Line - those were

> closed by the ASA4WDC due to private land owner liability issues.
> Whether we agree or not, it was ASA4WDC's decision, aiming to prevent
> more land issues with the BLM about traveling over private property.
> >
> > Are you all sure this is acceptable to you?
> >
> > Was there something that could have been done, but wasn't?
> >
> > Perhaps there is a way to become more actively involved in the
> ASA4WDC, to ensure our voice is heard, and not just called on for
> "Land issue" meetings when they need a sea of red shirts.
> >
> > After seeing so many AZVJC stickers at the Jamboree, it seems like
> we have alot to lose here.
> >
> > I'm sure I will be flamed for bringing up this issue of
> organization, but I will endure all that because I believe the topic
> must be seriously discussed to ensure that we cover all perspectives
> and ultimately achieve a collective voice to fight for our rights as 4

> wheelers and access to our land.
> >
> > Neal Han****
> > Arizona Rock Crawlers / AZVJC
>
>
>
>
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


68386 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:50pm
Subject: Re: 4-wheelers plight


The way I understand Bill's message it indirectly addresses your
problem.

Until and unless more people get directly involved (via an organized
club), then concerns like yours won't be addressed. Not that their
lack of organization is excusable but, they don't have this valueable
input to build on.

--James

--- In az_vjc@y..., "Scott Kruize" <skruize@c...> wrote:
> I see one big problem with the ASA. A couple years ago I joined.
> Somewhere along the way my membership expired and I never received
any
> kind of renewal notice. So I probably haven't been an ASA member
for at
> least 2 years. I guess if they really wanted to boost their numbers
they
> could send out a renewal notice to at least keep their existing
members.
>
>
> Scott K
>


68387 From: Bill Mish <yldkat55@h...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:17pm
Subject: Re: Re: 4-wheelers plight


You're just jealous cuz I'm bald and so damn handsome!

Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Towle" <James.Towle@a...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 3:39 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: 4-wheelers plight


>
> Still angry? Who me? I still see your messages, when they are on the
> board. lol.... <truce>
>
> Was that you I passed? I thought that big ol' tan thing on the
> trailer looked familiar.
>
> --James
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Bill Mish" <yldkat55@h...> wrote:
> >
> > BTW, my messages to you are still rejected, are you still angry
> with me
> > about something?
> > It's not because I didn't wave to you Sunday on the Highway, is it?
> > Heheehee!!
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>