Yahoo Messages: 68305-68333

[blooddrive]

68305-68333

68305 From: Mark Peterson <stinger75ih@c...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 9:39am
Subject: Re: ASA4WDC clubs


The underlined links did not come through for me, but this
information is on the ASA4WDC site at:

http://www.asa4wdc.org/asa_mbrs.html

--- In az_vjc@y..., <gotrox@c...> wrote:
> Note: Underlined names below are links to the respective club's
pages.
>
> ALLIED SIGNAL 4X4 CLUB
> PO Box 6182
> Scottsdale, Az 85261
> President: Nelson Garrison
> Phone: 602-571-3297
> email:Nelson Garrison
>
>
> ARIZONA LAND CRUISER ASSOCIATION
> 2646 E. Encanto St.
> Mesa, AZ 85213
> President: Brad Musil
> Phone: 480-785-9859
> email:Brad Musil
>
> ARIZONA CLASSIC BRONCOS
> P.O. Box 67321
> Phoenix, AZ 85082-7321
> President: Doug Schulz, 480-831-6503
> Meets @ Monday evening preceding the 3rd weekend of the month at
Treulich's Restaurant at Camelback Rd. and I-17.
> email: Doug Schulz
>
> ARIZONA DUST DEVILS
> Contact: azdd@y...
> Meetings are the first Wednesday of each month at the Top Shelf
Restaurant, northeast corner of Southern and Dobson, Mesa, AZ.
> Meeting starts at 7:00 P.M.
>
> ARIZONA LO-RANGERS
> President: Merty Boetel
> 11240 E. Edgewood
> Mesa, AZ 85208
> Meet at: Round Table Pizza, 9920 S. Rural Rd ( NW corner of Rural &
Ray)., Tempe, Az, Last Wednesday of the month
> email: Ted Gersztyn
>
> ARIZONA ROCK CRAWLERS
> President: Barry Brummet
> V.P./Membership: Ranger Dave Seberl
> Phone: 480.495.8273 (Barry's #)
> Mtg: Second Tuesday at 7:00 p.m. Aunt Chilada's across from Fry's
Electronics at I-10 & Baseline Rd.
>
> ARIZONA ROUGH RIDERS
> P.O. Box 56444
> Phoenix, Az 85061-1086
> Visit our web page for club info.
>
> BULLHEAD 4-WHEELERS, INC.
> P.O. Box 2403
> Bullhead City, AZ 86430-2403
> President: Wayne Welch--928-757-8699
> Meets @ 6:30 P.M., third Tuesday of each month at the Elk's Lodge,
E. Hand**** Rd. in Bullhead City. Guests are welcome!
> email: Joan Beck
>
> CASA GRANDE 4 WHEELERS, INC.
> P.O. Box 11633
> Casa Grande, AZ 85230-1633
> Pres: Gary MacLaren 520-836-3016
> Meets second Wednesday of each month at 7:30 p.m.
> At: APS bldg. located at
> 318 N. Marshall in Casa Grande
> email: gmaclaren@c...
>
> COPPERSTATE 4-WHEELERS
> P.O. Box 573
> Mesa,Az 85211-0573
> President: Mike Mangotich;
> Phone: 480-833-4260.
> Meetings: at Advanced Auto Body 7015 S. Harl Ave., Tempe, Second
Thursday of the month.
> Email: bradnbettiejones@m...
>
> CREEPY CRAWLERS
> P.O. Box 11944
> Phoenix, AZ 85061
> President: Richard Bills, 623-374-9420
> Meets @ Old Country Buffet, 79th Ave & Bell Rd. 7:30 P.M., First
Monday of each month.
> email: corralbbc@m...
>
> EARNHARDT "No Bull" 4 WHEELERS
> contact:: John Halvorsen
> email: enb4w@e...
> meetings are held at KC's in Mesa on the 2nd Wednesday of every
month at 7:00 PM.
>
> MESA 4-WHEELERS
> P.O. Box 107
> Mesa, AZ 85201
> President:Bill Mihailov, 480-983-0404
> Meets @ Brown & Brown Chevrolet in Mesa, AZ
> 7:30 P.M., third Friday of each month.
> email: Amy Mihailov
>
> PARKER 4-WHEELERS
> P.O. Box 54
> Parker, AZ 85344-0054
> President: Rodney Hayes, 520-669-6104
> Meet at Parker Auto & Marine, Parker, AZ
> 7:30 P.M., first Tuesday of each month.
> email: pkrauto@r...
>
> PHOENIX 4-WHEELERS
> P.O. Box 43255
> Phoenix, AZ 85080-3255
> President: Karl Houser, 623-907-8981
> Meets @ American Legion Post 107
> 20001 N. Cave Creed Rd., Phx.
> 7:30 P.M., fourth Tues. of each month.
>
>
> RANGE RIDERS 4 WHEELERS
> 2499 N. Calle Quarto
> Huachuca City, AZ 85616
> Pres: Martin Sindelar
> Vice-Prez: John Winters
> Meets @ The Landmark Cafe, Sierra Vista, Arizona, 7:00 P.M., third
Wednesday of each month.
> email: range_riders@h...
>
> RIM COUNTRY 4-WHEELERS
> P.O.Box 1065
> Payson, AZ 85547
> Meetings are the fourth Thursday of each month, at the Lamplighter
R.V. Park recreational center in Star Valley, Meetings start at 7 PM,
with a board meeting at 6:30PM before the general meeting
> President: Joan Noel; 928-477-2281
> email: Frank Noel
>
>
> ROADRUNNER 4-WHEELERS
> P.O. Box 4623
> Mesa, AZ 85201
> President: Pat Neveua
> Meetings are the second Thursday of each month at the Knock Kneed
Lobster, 3202 E. Washington St., Phoenix, AZ. Come early and have
dinner. Guests are always welcome. Meeting starts at 7:30 PM.
> email: Tom Epperson
>
> SAHUARO 4X4's
> 6401 E. Windsor
> Scottsdale, AZ 85257
> President: Hank Vanderzee, 602-247-8218
> Meets @ MAX's, 6767 N. 47th Ave., Glendale,AZ
>
>
> SOUTHWEST PINZGAUER ASSOC.
> 10514 E. Olla Ave.
> Mesa, AZ 85212
> Phone: 480-703-3009
> email: president@s...
>
>
> TUCSON ROUGH RIDERS
> P.O. Box 18396
> Tucson, AZ 85731-8396
> President: Hal Loy
> Meets @ FOP Lodge,
> 3445 N. Dodge, 7:00 P.M. (social hour starts at 6:30 P.M.),
> Fourth Tuesday of each month.
> Email: Rebecca Antle
> Phone: 520-682-0273
>
>
> VERDE VALLEY 4-WHEELERS
> Po Box 3540
> West Sedona, AZ 86340
> President: Steve Morehouse
> Phone: 928-634-8927
> Meets first Tuesday of the month at the Country Kitchen, 993 S.
Main St. in Cottonwood, AZ
> Email: Steve Morehouse
>
>
> WALAPAI 4-WHEELERS
> P.O. Box 4004
> Kingman, AZ 86401-4004
> President: Daniel Del Monaco
> Phone: 928-718-5622
> email: ddelmonaco@h...
> meet 4th Tuesday of month 7:30pm at Elks Lodge, Gates Ave in
Kingman.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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68306 From: kmichael02 <kmichael02@y...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 9:48am
Subject: Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure


we've been through this all before. Someone else can worry about the
poll that's only going to end up where it always has.

I thought the issue was getting exposure in a positive light. That
means getting out there and being visible. While cleaning up the
coves is a very positive activity, and seemingly much needed on a
routine basis, the exposure it presents is very limited and if any is
found via news, etc., it's somewhat pain staking. Surely any sign
posted there would be shot to hell and ruined.

Adopting a Highway gets you a big sign and many people see it,
politicians, cops, advocates etc etc etc. I'm not saying this is the
only method or means to being recognized as "aware of our
surroundings and worried about them," but it certainly is a start.
Where else do you see any info about the vjc? A big sign on the side
of the highway with a picture of a jeep goes a long, long way....hell
the jeep is an american icon, only second in recogintion to the damn
vw bug.


I'm certain it would be noticed, and who can't spare time to pick up
trash with all of our "members"

Michael




--- In az_vjc@y..., "Leonard Garcia" <leonardg@a...> wrote:
> Why don't you add a Poll (in the Polls section of this Yahoo Group)
> on that and on whether AzVJC should officially join ASA4WDC... and
> how to pay for it...
>
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Siade, Randy" <randy.siade@u...> wrote:
> > All clubs that are associated with the ASA have adopted trails. I
> also
> > belong to the Arizona Dust Devils and our adopted trail is Rocker
> panel
> > pass. We do clean ups on this trail about 2 times a year. I have
> suggested
> > in the past and will suggest again that VJC adopt a trail and
since
> the VJC
> > has had annual clean ups at the Coves I think we should adopt it.
> So what
> > you all think?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: kmichael02 [mailto:kmichael02@y...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 8:57 AM
> > To: az_vjc@y...
> > Subject: [az_vjc] ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure
> >
> >
> > Club or no club...why not try to get constant exposure...such as
> > Adopting a section of highway or something...not sure if this has
> > ever been brought up but it gets you a sign, it's good for the
> > community, it doesn't take a long time to complete, it's easy to
do
> > and people notice Signs as well as 25 jeeps on the side of a
> > highway...
> >
> > when a news chopper flys over and states there's a bottle neck on
> > such and such...and then flys in for a closer look and it's b/c
> > people are rubber necking to watch a bunch of 4wheelers cleaning
up
> > the environment, exposure in a positive manner....[assuming no
one
> > wrecks b/c of it ;)]
> >
> >
> > just a thought
> >
> > michael
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


68307 From: Mike Baney <jeepin_in_az@y...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 9:49am
Subject: Final Coves Flyer, pass it out!


Here is the final for the Coves cleanup. I will be bringing some down to
4Wheelers Supply tomarrow.

Mike Baney


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/

Attachment: (application/pdf) coves cleanup flyer.pdf [not stored]

68308 From: ROBERT NYBERG <r.nyberg@w...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 9:52am
Subject: Spook Rally


Hey to all

I have a friend who was drawn for the Spook Rally but now can not
attend. I believe his pull out time is 10:28 or there about. If anyone
would like a free ticket it will be on first come basis at 602-499-5318.
The phone will be on until 11:00 am.

Bob

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

68309 From: FredTJ <fredtj@c...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 9:56am
Subject: Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure


The Tucson Rough Riders have a least two trails that we clean up and do
maintaince work on, Charloureau Gap and Rice Peak. We've also adopted a
ranch, where we go down once a year or so, and help out.

Cheers,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: "Siade, Randy" <randy.siade@u...>
To: "'kmichael02'" <kmichael02@y...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 9:09 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure


> All clubs that are associated with the ASA have adopted trails. I also
> belong to the Arizona Dust Devils and our adopted trail is Rocker panel
> pass. We do clean ups on this trail about 2 times a year. I have suggested
> in the past and will suggest again that VJC adopt a trail and since the
VJC
> has had annual clean ups at the Coves I think we should adopt it. So what
> you all think?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: kmichael02 [mailto:kmichael02@y...]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 8:57 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure
>
>
> Club or no club...why not try to get constant exposure...such as
> Adopting a section of highway or something...not sure if this has
> ever been brought up but it gets you a sign, it's good for the
> community, it doesn't take a long time to complete, it's easy to do
> and people notice Signs as well as 25 jeeps on the side of a
> highway...
>
> when a news chopper flys over and states there's a bottle neck on
> such and such...and then flys in for a closer look and it's b/c
> people are rubber necking to watch a bunch of 4wheelers cleaning up
> the environment, exposure in a positive manner....[assuming no one
> wrecks b/c of it ;)]
>
>
> just a thought
>
> michael
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


68310 From: Rob Williams <g_rob_williams@y...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 9:58am
Subject: Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure


Now there is the go-getter motivation we all need! LOL Sounds like
someone needs his stress ball to squeese this morning! :) -Rob


--- In az_vjc@y..., "kmichael02" <kmichael02@y...> wrote:
> we've been through this all before. Someone else can worry about
the
> poll that's only going to end up where it always has.


68312 From: Scott Kruize <skruize@c...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 10:11am
Subject: RE: Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure


If (big if) there were to be an organized club you would need to leave
the Azvjc Yahoo Group open to everyone. There is no need to exclude
anybody from the email list. That way no members would have to leave.
That's all I'm concerned about at the moment. We need a place for those
that want to share tech info, etc without being forced to join a true
club.

There is no way all of the list members would join the organized club.
I'm betting you'd be lucky to get 10%. Really lucky.

I like the AZVJC the way it is. Despite some of the arguments I've seen
I have seen more AZVJC members at the land use meetings than all the
organized clubs combined. I have seen the AZVJC get more exposure than
any other club.

Like always, those that desire more can form a club or join an existing
one. The AZVJC has always been more of an information exchange than a
true club anyway. Its working wonderfully as is. Why screw that up?

Scott K





-----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Garcia [mailto:leonardg@a...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 10:00 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure


OK, great. If you have an idea on how to get members to agree, let's
hear it.

--- In az_vjc@y..., "kmichael02" <kmichael02@y...> wrote:
> we've been through this all before. Someone else can worry about
the
> poll that's only going to end up where it always has.
>
> I thought the issue was getting exposure in a positive light. That
> means getting out there and being visible. While cleaning up the
> coves is a very positive activity, and seemingly much needed on a
> routine basis, the exposure it presents is very limited and if any
is
> found via news, etc., it's somewhat pain staking. Surely any sign
> posted there would be shot to hell and ruined.
>
> Adopting a Highway gets you a big sign and many people see it,
> politicians, cops, advocates etc etc etc. I'm not saying this is
the
> only method or means to being recognized as "aware of our
> surroundings and worried about them," but it certainly is a start.
> Where else do you see any info about the vjc? A big sign on the
side
> of the highway with a picture of a jeep goes a long, long
way....hell
> the jeep is an american icon, only second in recogintion to the
damn
> vw bug.
>
>
> I'm certain it would be noticed, and who can't spare time to pick
up
> trash with all of our "members"
>
> Michael
>
>
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Leonard Garcia" <leonardg@a...> wrote:
> > Why don't you add a Poll (in the Polls section of this Yahoo
Group)
> > on that and on whether AzVJC should officially join ASA4WDC...
and
> > how to pay for it...
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Siade, Randy" <randy.siade@u...> wrote:
> > > All clubs that are associated with the ASA have adopted trails.
I
> > also
> > > belong to the Arizona Dust Devils and our adopted trail is
Rocker
> > panel
> > > pass. We do clean ups on this trail about 2 times a year. I
have
> > suggested
> > > in the past and will suggest again that VJC adopt a trail and
> since
> > the VJC
> > > has had annual clean ups at the Coves I think we should adopt
it.
> > So what
> > > you all think?
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: kmichael02 [mailto:kmichael02@y...]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 8:57 AM
> > > To: az_vjc@y...
> > > Subject: [az_vjc] ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure
> > >
> > >
> > > Club or no club...why not try to get constant exposure...such
as
> > > Adopting a section of highway or something...not sure if this
has
> > > ever been brought up but it gets you a sign, it's good for the
> > > community, it doesn't take a long time to complete, it's easy
to
> do
> > > and people notice Signs as well as 25 jeeps on the side of a
> > > highway...
> > >
> > > when a news chopper flys over and states there's a bottle neck
on
> > > such and such...and then flys in for a closer look and it's b/c
> > > people are rubber necking to watch a bunch of 4wheelers
cleaning
> up
> > > the environment, exposure in a positive manner....[assuming no
> one
> > > wrecks b/c of it ;)]
> > >
> > >
> > > just a thought
> > >
> > > michael
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


68313 From: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 10:19am
Subject: New poll for az_vjc


Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
az_vjc group:

Do you belong to ASA4WDC?
This is just an informational poll.
Names won't be seen. I would like the
entire group to give some feedback on
this. If there are catagories I missed,
I apologize.

o Yes, I purchased an individual membership
o Yes, I belong through another club
o No, I don't care to join
o No, I don't know nothing about ASA4WDC
o No, I don't live in Az


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/surveys?id=993003

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!


68315 From: kmichael02 <kmichael02@y...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 10:28am
Subject: Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure


All I'm saying is you all want attention by many, in a good light,
cleaning up a trail isn't going to get it. We will still keep
cleaning up trails regardless of our other activities. If you want
to be noticed and recognized...get out were everyone can see you.
The majority of the people against our cause are people who don't
have a lick to do with the outdoors in a serious fashion, they are
people brainwashed or convinced by friends that the 4wheelers are
killing the earth single handedly and dragged along to meetings to
show support for their friends that joined various environmental
groups b/c rei gave them a mailer and they thought it'd be cool to
put a sticker on their vehicle.


I'm just saying, good deeds, where large #'s of people can witness
the deed, goes a very long way. Raking up cove 3 is noble and more
helpful in its own way to the environment and water source than
perhaps picking up a beer can on the side of 17 but no one see's you
doing it out there, therefore...it never really happened! Not
seen...then not really heard. Sad but true.








--- In az_vjc@y..., "Leonard Garcia" <leonardg@a...> wrote:
> OK, great. If you have an idea on how to get members to agree,
let's
> hear it.
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "kmichael02" <kmichael02@y...> wrote:
> > we've been through this all before. Someone else can worry about
> the
> > poll that's only going to end up where it always has.
> >
> > I thought the issue was getting exposure in a positive light.
That
> > means getting out there and being visible. While cleaning up the
> > coves is a very positive activity, and seemingly much needed on a
> > routine basis, the exposure it presents is very limited and if
any
> is
> > found via news, etc., it's somewhat pain staking. Surely any
sign
> > posted there would be shot to hell and ruined.
> >
> > Adopting a Highway gets you a big sign and many people see it,
> > politicians, cops, advocates etc etc etc. I'm not saying this is
> the
> > only method or means to being recognized as "aware of our
> > surroundings and worried about them," but it certainly is a
start.
> > Where else do you see any info about the vjc? A big sign on the
> side
> > of the highway with a picture of a jeep goes a long, long
> way....hell
> > the jeep is an american icon, only second in recogintion to the
> damn
> > vw bug.
> >
> >
> > I'm certain it would be noticed, and who can't spare time to pick
> up
> > trash with all of our "members"
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Leonard Garcia" <leonardg@a...> wrote:
> > > Why don't you add a Poll (in the Polls section of this Yahoo
> Group)
> > > on that and on whether AzVJC should officially join ASA4WDC...
> and
> > > how to pay for it...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Siade, Randy" <randy.siade@u...> wrote:
> > > > All clubs that are associated with the ASA have adopted
trails.
> I
> > > also
> > > > belong to the Arizona Dust Devils and our adopted trail is
> Rocker
> > > panel
> > > > pass. We do clean ups on this trail about 2 times a year. I
> have
> > > suggested
> > > > in the past and will suggest again that VJC adopt a trail and
> > since
> > > the VJC
> > > > has had annual clean ups at the Coves I think we should adopt
> it.
> > > So what
> > > > you all think?
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: kmichael02 [mailto:kmichael02@y...]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 8:57 AM
> > > > To: az_vjc@y...
> > > > Subject: [az_vjc] ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Club or no club...why not try to get constant exposure...such
> as
> > > > Adopting a section of highway or something...not sure if this
> has
> > > > ever been brought up but it gets you a sign, it's good for
the
> > > > community, it doesn't take a long time to complete, it's easy
> to
> > do
> > > > and people notice Signs as well as 25 jeeps on the side of a
> > > > highway...
> > > >
> > > > when a news chopper flys over and states there's a bottle
neck
> on
> > > > such and such...and then flys in for a closer look and it's
b/c
> > > > people are rubber necking to watch a bunch of 4wheelers
> cleaning
> > up
> > > > the environment, exposure in a positive manner....[assuming
no
> > one
> > > > wrecks b/c of it ;)]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > just a thought
> > > >
> > > > michael
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


68316 From: Sean Speer <seanspeer@m...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 10:36am
Subject: Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure


heres an idea! they always do charity walks/runs for breast cancer and other
diseases... how about doing trail runs for charities? we could go out and
get some sponsers for the run and when we ride it... all the money can go to
a charity. just a thought!
----- Original Message -----
From: "kmichael02" <kmichael02@y...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 8:57 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure


> Club or no club...why not try to get constant exposure...such as
> Adopting a section of highway or something...not sure if this has
> ever been brought up but it gets you a sign, it's good for the
> community, it doesn't take a long time to complete, it's easy to do
> and people notice Signs as well as 25 jeeps on the side of a
> highway...
>
> when a news chopper flys over and states there's a bottle neck on
> such and such...and then flys in for a closer look and it's b/c
> people are rubber necking to watch a bunch of 4wheelers cleaning up
> the environment, exposure in a positive manner....[assuming no one
> wrecks b/c of it ;)]
>
>
> just a thought
>
> michael
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>


68317 From: Janice Allison <jallison@a...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 10:42am
Subject: RE: Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure


http://www.dot.state.az.us/news/school/adopt/adopt.htm

I contacted the Phoenix office to find out more about the Adopt-A-Highway
program. Mark Schallio is the guy who issues permits (free of cost) and
tells you what areas of Highway are available for adoption. Check out the
web page, looks like with all our members, it shouldn't be a problem. I
think it's a great idea. Maybe a poll is a good idea - gives some type of
focal point to start with.

Jan


At 10:11 AM 10/22/02 -0700, Scott Kruize wrote:

>If (big if) there were to be an organized club you would need to leave
>the Azvjc Yahoo Group open to everyone. There is no need to exclude
>anybody from the email list. That way no members would have to leave.
>That's all I'm concerned about at the moment. We need a place for those
>that want to share tech info, etc without being forced to join a true
>club.
>
>There is no way all of the list members would join the organized club.
>I'm betting you'd be lucky to get 10%. Really lucky.
>
>I like the AZVJC the way it is. Despite some of the arguments I've seen
>I have seen more AZVJC members at the land use meetings than all the
>organized clubs combined. I have seen the AZVJC get more exposure than
>any other club.
>
>Like always, those that desire more can form a club or join an existing
>one. The AZVJC has always been more of an information exchange than a
>true club anyway. Its working wonderfully as is. Why screw that up?
>
>Scott K
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Leonard Garcia [mailto:leonardg@a...]
>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 10:00 AM
>To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [az_vjc] Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure
>
>
>OK, great. If you have an idea on how to get members to agree, let's
>hear it.
>
>--- In az_vjc@y..., "kmichael02" <kmichael02@y...> wrote:
> > we've been through this all before. Someone else can worry about
>the
> > poll that's only going to end up where it always has.
> >
> > I thought the issue was getting exposure in a positive light. That
> > means getting out there and being visible. While cleaning up the
> > coves is a very positive activity, and seemingly much needed on a
> > routine basis, the exposure it presents is very limited and if any
>is
> > found via news, etc., it's somewhat pain staking. Surely any sign
> > posted there would be shot to hell and ruined.
> >
> > Adopting a Highway gets you a big sign and many people see it,
> > politicians, cops, advocates etc etc etc. I'm not saying this is
>the
> > only method or means to being recognized as "aware of our
> > surroundings and worried about them," but it certainly is a start.
> > Where else do you see any info about the vjc? A big sign on the
>side
> > of the highway with a picture of a jeep goes a long, long
>way....hell
> > the jeep is an american icon, only second in recogintion to the
>damn
> > vw bug.
> >
> >
> > I'm certain it would be noticed, and who can't spare time to pick
>up
> > trash with all of our "members"
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Leonard Garcia" <leonardg@a...> wrote:
> > > Why don't you add a Poll (in the Polls section of this Yahoo
>Group)
> > > on that and on whether AzVJC should officially join ASA4WDC...
>and
> > > how to pay for it...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Siade, Randy" <randy.siade@u...> wrote:
> > > > All clubs that are associated with the ASA have adopted trails.
>I
> > > also
> > > > belong to the Arizona Dust Devils and our adopted trail is
>Rocker
> > > panel
> > > > pass. We do clean ups on this trail about 2 times a year. I
>have
> > > suggested
> > > > in the past and will suggest again that VJC adopt a trail and
> > since
> > > the VJC
> > > > has had annual clean ups at the Coves I think we should adopt
>it.
> > > So what
> > > > you all think?
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: kmichael02 [mailto:kmichael02@y...]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 8:57 AM
> > > > To: az_vjc@y...
> > > > Subject: [az_vjc] ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Club or no club...why not try to get constant exposure...such
>as
> > > > Adopting a section of highway or something...not sure if this
>has
> > > > ever been brought up but it gets you a sign, it's good for the
> > > > community, it doesn't take a long time to complete, it's easy
>to
> > do
> > > > and people notice Signs as well as 25 jeeps on the side of a
> > > > highway...
> > > >
> > > > when a news chopper flys over and states there's a bottle neck
>on
> > > > such and such...and then flys in for a closer look and it's b/c
> > > > people are rubber necking to watch a bunch of 4wheelers
>cleaning
> > up
> > > > the environment, exposure in a positive manner....[assuming no
> > one
> > > > wrecks b/c of it ;)]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > just a thought
> > > >
> > > > michael
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


68318 From: Daver <daver@c...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 10:46am
Subject: Re: Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure


At 05:26 PM 10/22/2002 +0000, Leonard Garcia wrote:
>I personally like the AzVJC as it is; that is the only reason I
>joined.
>
>I will not join an 'organized' club.
>
>However, it must be hard to get recognition and coordinate events
>with no meetings and no $$$ resources. Is that why AzVJC is not
>listed under the ASA4WDC members?

Actually, it is mostly not listed under ASA4WDC members because it is _not_
a member club. Many members of AZ_VJC are members of ASA4WDC though, either
through other clubs, or through individual memberships.


68319 From: Joe West <joe.west@s...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 10:59am
Subject: AZ_VJC Splinter Clubs... was RE: Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure


Hi Scott,

I agree with you... I believe that it would be difficult to garner many
people from the azvjc into an organized club.

The good news is that people have successfully created splinter clubs
from the Azvjc... I can think of at least three clubs who began from the
Azvjc and I suspect that there are many more.

The AZVJC must be left as it is... while there are some who whine about
off-topic posts and ignorant/arrogant/stupid/argumentative/violent/(you
get the point) posts from the Azvjc list; they have an option if they
don't like it:

They quit.

This is an excellent solution for those who don't like whatever the
current incarnation of the Azvjc is. Our club, unorganized as it is, is
infinitely better than any organized club in existence (this is my
opinion of course). We have the best of all worlds and while sometimes
it takes a thick skin to survive here... most, including myself, thrive.

I'm sure we'll soon have some tearful pleading that we organize the
Azvjc... (it has been at least 6 months since the last major
"organization" attempt), those who long for a "real" club should do as
others have done and start your own club.

The only drawback to the splinter groups is that we loose some very
knowledgeable talent when this happens... it is sad to see some of our
members leave, but it is for the best if they do not like things here.
Sometimes people who create splinter clubs find the time to stay on with
the Azvjc; and this is truly the best of all worlds.

As far as the exposure topic goes... if you want exposure for our club,
all you need to do is pick a subject matter (trail upkeep, adopt a
highway, take supplies to Payson for the fire relief fund, coves
cleanup, etc.) and run with it.
You get an opportunity to be a leader, and try out your skills as a
promoter for your pet project, whatever it may be.

Note to splinter clubs:

If you would like to let everyone know about your organized club, now
would be a good time to increase your ranks if you so choose. Shoot the
list your club name and contact information (President, etc) so that
Azvjc members who wish to join an organized club can find you. I
realize that a few of the Azvjc splinter clubs are exclusive by
invitation only and those clubs obviously won't want to respond to this
request.

Long live Anarchy in the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club!

Joe West
Certified Public Anarchist




There is no way all of the list members would join the organized club.
I'm betting you'd be lucky to get 10%. Really lucky.

I like the AZVJC the way it is. Despite some of the arguments I've seen
I have seen more AZVJC members at the land use meetings than all the
organized clubs combined. I have seen the AZVJC get more exposure than
any other club.

Like always, those that desire more can form a club or join an existing
one. The AZVJC has always been more of an information exchange than a
true club anyway. Its working wonderfully as is. Why screw that up?

Scott K


68320 From: Joe Kearney <Joe-CJ7@j...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 10:58am
Subject: ReReReRe Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure


This almost sounds like the big "O" topic going around again, and again, and
again.
Aaaauuuggghhh!
<grin>
Joe Kearney
Joe-CJ7@J...


----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Kruize" <skruize@c...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 10:11 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure


>
> If (big if) there were to be an organized club you would need to leave
> the Azvjc Yahoo Group open to everyone. There is no need to exclude
> anybody from the email list. That way no members would have to leave.
> That's all I'm concerned about at the moment. We need a place for those
> that want to share tech info, etc without being forced to join a true
> club.
>
> There is no way all of the list members would join the organized club.
> I'm betting you'd be lucky to get 10%. Really lucky.
>
> I like the AZVJC the way it is. Despite some of the arguments I've seen
> I have seen more AZVJC members at the land use meetings than all the
> organized clubs combined. I have seen the AZVJC get more exposure than
> any other club.
>
> Like always, those that desire more can form a club or join an existing
> one. The AZVJC has always been more of an information exchange than a
> true club anyway. Its working wonderfully as is. Why screw that up?
>
> Scott K
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leonard Garcia [mailto:leonardg@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 10:00 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure
>
>
> OK, great. If you have an idea on how to get members to agree, let's
> hear it.
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "kmichael02" <kmichael02@y...> wrote:
> > we've been through this all before. Someone else can worry about
> the
> > poll that's only going to end up where it always has.
> >
> > I thought the issue was getting exposure in a positive light. That
> > means getting out there and being visible. While cleaning up the
> > coves is a very positive activity, and seemingly much needed on a
> > routine basis, the exposure it presents is very limited and if any
> is
> > found via news, etc., it's somewhat pain staking. Surely any sign
> > posted there would be shot to hell and ruined.
> >
> > Adopting a Highway gets you a big sign and many people see it,
> > politicians, cops, advocates etc etc etc. I'm not saying this is
> the
> > only method or means to being recognized as "aware of our
> > surroundings and worried about them," but it certainly is a start.
> > Where else do you see any info about the vjc? A big sign on the
> side
> > of the highway with a picture of a jeep goes a long, long
> way....hell
> > the jeep is an american icon, only second in recogintion to the
> damn
> > vw bug.
> >
> >
> > I'm certain it would be noticed, and who can't spare time to pick
> up
> > trash with all of our "members"
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Leonard Garcia" <leonardg@a...> wrote:
> > > Why don't you add a Poll (in the Polls section of this Yahoo
> Group)
> > > on that and on whether AzVJC should officially join ASA4WDC...
> and
> > > how to pay for it...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Siade, Randy" <randy.siade@u...> wrote:
> > > > All clubs that are associated with the ASA have adopted trails.
> I
> > > also
> > > > belong to the Arizona Dust Devils and our adopted trail is
> Rocker
> > > panel
> > > > pass. We do clean ups on this trail about 2 times a year. I
> have
> > > suggested
> > > > in the past and will suggest again that VJC adopt a trail and
> > since
> > > the VJC
> > > > has had annual clean ups at the Coves I think we should adopt
> it.
> > > So what
> > > > you all think?
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: kmichael02 [mailto:kmichael02@y...]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 8:57 AM
> > > > To: az_vjc@y...
> > > > Subject: [az_vjc] ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Club or no club...why not try to get constant exposure...such
> as
> > > > Adopting a section of highway or something...not sure if this
> has
> > > > ever been brought up but it gets you a sign, it's good for the
> > > > community, it doesn't take a long time to complete, it's easy
> to
> > do
> > > > and people notice Signs as well as 25 jeeps on the side of a
> > > > highway...
> > > >
> > > > when a news chopper flys over and states there's a bottle neck
> on
> > > > such and such...and then flys in for a closer look and it's b/c
> > > > people are rubber necking to watch a bunch of 4wheelers
> cleaning
> > up
> > > > the environment, exposure in a positive manner....[assuming no
> > one
> > > > wrecks b/c of it ;)]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > just a thought
> > > >
> > > > michael
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


68322 From: Joe West <joe.west@s...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:07am
Subject: RE: New poll for az_vjc


There's no case for the obvious:

No, but I would like to join

Joe West

-----Original Message-----
From: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:az_vjc@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 10:20 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] New poll for az_vjc


Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
az_vjc group:

Do you belong to ASA4WDC?
This is just an informational poll.
Names won't be seen. I would like the
entire group to give some feedback on
this. If there are catagories I missed,
I apologize.

o Yes, I purchased an individual membership
o Yes, I belong through another club
o No, I don't care to join
o No, I don't know nothing about ASA4WDC
o No, I don't live in Az


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/surveys?id=993003

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!









Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


68324 From: Jason Jolley <jaedon511@y...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:17am
Subject: Road Hazard Help


Just bought some 35 inch goodyear from a guy that doesnt sell any
warranty on his tires.Does anyone know of any tire company that will
sell me a road hazard warranty for these tires? thanks


68325 From: <AZICE626@a...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 7:41am
Subject: Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure


the adopt a highway program is not as it seems.....you pay a fee to a company (I think around 5K) and they do the clean ups.....not the sponsoring person/group....

68326 From: Rob Williams <g_rob_williams@y...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:45am
Subject: AZ_VJC Splinter Clubs... was RE: Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure


ARIZONA VIRTUAL JEEP CLUB??? Dang it.... I thought I joined the
Arizona Virtual Scott Club!!!! LOL -Rob




--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe West" <joe.west@s...> wrote:
> Hi Scott,
>
> I agree with you... I believe that it would be difficult to garner
many
> people from the azvjc into an organized club.
>
> The good news is that people have successfully created splinter
clubs
> from the Azvjc... I can think of at least three clubs who began
from the
> Azvjc and I suspect that there are many more.
>
> The AZVJC must be left as it is... while there are some who whine
about
> off-topic posts and ignorant/arrogant/stupid/argumentative/violent/
(you
> get the point) posts from the Azvjc list; they have an option if
they
> don't like it:
>
> They quit.
>
> This is an excellent solution for those who don't like whatever the
> current incarnation of the Azvjc is. Our club, unorganized as it
is, is
> infinitely better than any organized club in existence (this is my
> opinion of course). We have the best of all worlds and while
sometimes
> it takes a thick skin to survive here... most, including myself,
thrive.
>
> I'm sure we'll soon have some tearful pleading that we organize the
> Azvjc... (it has been at least 6 months since the last major
> "organization" attempt), those who long for a "real" club should
do as
> others have done and start your own club.
>
> The only drawback to the splinter groups is that we loose some very
> knowledgeable talent when this happens... it is sad to see some of
our
> members leave, but it is for the best if they do not like things
here.
> Sometimes people who create splinter clubs find the time to stay
on with
> the Azvjc; and this is truly the best of all worlds.
>
> As far as the exposure topic goes... if you want exposure for our
club,
> all you need to do is pick a subject matter (trail upkeep, adopt a
> highway, take supplies to Payson for the fire relief fund, coves
> cleanup, etc.) and run with it.
> You get an opportunity to be a leader, and try out your skills as a
> promoter for your pet project, whatever it may be.
>
> Note to splinter clubs:
>
> If you would like to let everyone know about your organized club,
now
> would be a good time to increase your ranks if you so choose.
Shoot the
> list your club name and contact information (President, etc) so
that
> Azvjc members who wish to join an organized club can find you. I
> realize that a few of the Azvjc splinter clubs are exclusive by
> invitation only and those clubs obviously won't want to respond to
this
> request.
>
> Long live Anarchy in the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club!
>
> Joe West
> Certified Public Anarchist
>
>
>
>
> There is no way all of the list members would join the organized
club.
> I'm betting you'd be lucky to get 10%. Really lucky.
>
> I like the AZVJC the way it is. Despite some of the arguments I've
seen
> I have seen more AZVJC members at the land use meetings than all
the
> organized clubs combined. I have seen the AZVJC get more exposure
than
> any other club.
>
> Like always, those that desire more can form a club or join an
existing
> one. The AZVJC has always been more of an information exchange
than a
> true club anyway. Its working wonderfully as is. Why screw that up?
>
> Scott K


68327 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:47am
Subject: Re: 4-wheelers plight


Neal,

My friend, this is in no way intended to be inflamatory. If I get
heated throw some water on your computer, lol. I thought about making
this a private message, but then decided against it.

First of all, I knew we were in trouble before Saturday. When all the
trails cancellations started being published, I knew. When the camp
ground situation was published, I knew. And someone with authority at
ASA4WDC should have known, I bet they did.

I don't believe, that making AzVJC an "organized" club will do any
good for the off roading community, (there I said it, this is a
switch for me, I know). Please, let me tell you why; AzVJC gives
people a starting point into 4 wheeling without having to be tied up
in all the organzational matters. I for one would not be an ASA4WDC
member if it wasn't for AzVJC. Without giving people this starting
point more people will be ignorant to what is going on in the 4
wheeling community.
Some people I have talked to have expressed that ASA4WDC is not doing
what they should be doing. By this I mean, they have not won any big
battles on land issues lately.
Let me give you this analogy, people don't like the Cardinals right
now, why? Because they aren't winners and haven't shown that they
could win. I bet, that when they start winning their stadium will go
through with no problem, (backing a winner).

If ASA4WDC just needs to increase their numbers, then they should go
after individual memberships. Make it easier for people like Mike C.
to put a link on the AzVJC web site, asking people to join ASA4WDC.

AzVJC, I believe, has more members than ASA4WDC. One of the reasons
for the poll I started was to see how many members of AzVJC are, in
fact, members of ASA4WDC. I am guessing there are almost a half. Thus
making the issue of adding numbers virtually irrelevent because, only
about half of AzVJC members are actually active, if that much.

I don't know who was responsible for the mis-fortunes of this last
weekend. IMO it was 50/50, 50% ASA4WDC management and 50% others, but
given this, it is up to the management to make sure the others are
taken care of. Thus, IMO the management sucked.

Go ahead and let me know where there is flaws in my logic, I have big
shoulders.

--James

PS - I hope you are still my friend. You are a good guy, a
little "hot headed", but a good guy.

--- In az_vjc@y..., <gotrox@c...> wrote:
> After talking to Francisco Mendoza on Saturday, seeing first hand
the events that transpired with the BLM, AZ Fish and Game, and the
Sheriff, I and several others, came to the same conclusion:
>
> We are in trouble!!
>
> I couldn't help but wonder if the AZVJC would be willing to risk
losing any ground to `wheel on over something as simple as a little
more structured approach in maintaining our hobby.
>
> It has been stated time and time again in this group
about "Organization" being a losing battle. I think we "4wheelers"
need to be more organized in our fight. Now I know what some of you
are going to say right off the get go. But if we plan to enjoy this
sport that we all partake in, then this organization of interests and
efforts needs to happen. I'm not saying that the AZVJC needs to
become an incorporated body, but belonging to ASA4WDC will help. You
can belong to other clubs that are part of ASA4WDC. Many of us are
already members indirectly through a 4WD club, but membership can be
individual too. My point is that we need to collectively show our
support and share one voice through the ASA4WDC - to keep the freedom
that we enjoy as far as using public lands. If everyone waits for
the next guy or next club to make our case with the land departments,
we'll lose any progress we've made to keep our trails open.
>
> As far as the trails that were being closed this weekend -
Jawbreaker was closed by the BLM - this came from Francisco Mendoza
himself. Martinez, Overdose, Bad Medicine and Brake Line - those
were closed by the ASA4WDC due to private land owner liability
issues. Whether we agree or not, it was ASA4WDC's decision, aiming
to prevent more land issues with the BLM about traveling over private
property.
>
> Are you all sure this is acceptable to you?
>
> Was there something that could have been done, but wasn't?
>
> Perhaps there is a way to become more actively involved in the
ASA4WDC, to ensure our voice is heard, and not just called on
for "Land issue" meetings when they need a sea of red shirts.
>
> After seeing so many AZVJC stickers at the Jamboree, it seems like
we have alot to lose here.
>
> I'm sure I will be flamed for bringing up this issue of
organization, but I will endure all that because I believe the topic
must be seriously discussed to ensure that we cover all perspectives
and ultimately achieve a collective voice to fight for our rights as
4 wheelers and access to our land.
>
> Neal Han****
> Arizona Rock Crawlers / AZVJC


68328 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:49am
Subject: Re: New poll for az_vjc


This isn't about AzVJC and I don't want to turn it into that, it'll
get us no place quick. This is about ASA4WDC.

--James

--- In az_vjc@y..., "Leonard Garcia" <leonardg@a...> wrote:
> Or "No, but I would like AzVJC to join"
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe West" <joe.west@s...> wrote:
> > There's no case for the obvious:
> >
> > No, but I would like to join
> >
> > Joe West
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: az_vjc@y... [mailto:az_vjc@y...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 10:20 AM
> > To: az_vjc@y...
> > Subject: [az_vjc] New poll for az_vjc
> >
> >
> > Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
> > az_vjc group:
> >
> > Do you belong to ASA4WDC?
> > This is just an informational poll.
> > Names won't be seen. I would like the
> > entire group to give some feedback on
> > this. If there are catagories I missed,
> > I apologize.
> >
> > o Yes, I purchased an individual membership
> > o Yes, I belong through another club
> > o No, I don't care to join
> > o No, I don't know nothing about ASA4WDC
> > o No, I don't live in Az
> >
> >
> > To vote, please visit the following web page:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/surveys?id=993003
> >
> > Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
> > not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo!
Groups
> > web site listed above.
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> >
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68329 From: Siade, Randy <randy.siade@u...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:51am
Subject: RE: Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure


Then you will have to charge membership fees to the AZVJC because the
ASA4WDC charges fees.

-----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Garcia [mailto:leonardg@a...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 11:01 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: ---------Idea on VJC Club exposure


Would it be of advantage for the AzVJC itself to be a ASA4WDC member?
Or would they not take us 'cause not "organized" club, or would AzVJC
members object?


> Actually, it is mostly not listed under ASA4WDC members because it
is _not_
> a member club. Many members of AZ_VJC are members of ASA4WDC
though, either
> through other clubs, or through individual memberships.




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68330 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:53am
Subject: Re: New poll for az_vjc


I apologize, I thought "o No, I don't know nothing about ASA4WDC"
would cover that.
If you would like to join individually go to http://www.asa4wdc.org
and print out their individual membership form, fill it out, attach
your check and send it in.

--James

--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe West" <joe.west@s...> wrote:
> There's no case for the obvious:
>
> No, but I would like to join
>
> Joe West
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_vjc@y... [mailto:az_vjc@y...]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 10:20 AM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] New poll for az_vjc
>
>
> Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
> az_vjc group:
>
> Do you belong to ASA4WDC?
> This is just an informational poll.
> Names won't be seen. I would like the
> entire group to give some feedback on
> this. If there are catagories I missed,
> I apologize.
>
> o Yes, I purchased an individual membership
> o Yes, I belong through another club
> o No, I don't care to join
> o No, I don't know nothing about ASA4WDC
> o No, I don't live in Az
>
>
> To vote, please visit the following web page:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/surveys?id=993003
>
> Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
> not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
> web site listed above.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


68331 From: <AZICE626@a...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 7:55am
Subject: Adopt A Highway Apology


My apologies....I guess I misspoke before....apparently ADOT does have a separate program where the groups can actually do the clean ups....ADOT provides the training, bags, etc. and has specific rules (i.e., 2 year commitment) that have to be followed...the link to the site is:

http://www.dot.state.az.us/news/school/adopt/adopt.htm

sorry again.....tj

68332 From: Siade, Randy <randy.siade@u...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:55am
Subject: RE: Re: 4-wheelers plight


What do you mean the Cardinals aren't winners, They are tied for first place
in there division and still no noe goes to the games! LOL

-----Original Message-----
From: James Towle [mailto:James.Towle@a...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 11:47 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: 4-wheelers plight


Neal,

My friend, this is in no way intended to be inflamatory. If I get
heated throw some water on your computer, lol. I thought about making
this a private message, but then decided against it.

First of all, I knew we were in trouble before Saturday. When all the
trails cancellations started being published, I knew. When the camp
ground situation was published, I knew. And someone with authority at
ASA4WDC should have known, I bet they did.

I don't believe, that making AzVJC an "organized" club will do any
good for the off roading community, (there I said it, this is a
switch for me, I know). Please, let me tell you why; AzVJC gives
people a starting point into 4 wheeling without having to be tied up
in all the organzational matters. I for one would not be an ASA4WDC
member if it wasn't for AzVJC. Without giving people this starting
point more people will be ignorant to what is going on in the 4
wheeling community.
Some people I have talked to have expressed that ASA4WDC is not doing
what they should be doing. By this I mean, they have not won any big
battles on land issues lately.
Let me give you this analogy, people don't like the Cardinals right
now, why? Because they aren't winners and haven't shown that they
could win. I bet, that when they start winning their stadium will go
through with no problem, (backing a winner).

If ASA4WDC just needs to increase their numbers, then they should go
after individual memberships. Make it easier for people like Mike C.
to put a link on the AzVJC web site, asking people to join ASA4WDC.

AzVJC, I believe, has more members than ASA4WDC. One of the reasons
for the poll I started was to see how many members of AzVJC are, in
fact, members of ASA4WDC. I am guessing there are almost a half. Thus
making the issue of adding numbers virtually irrelevent because, only
about half of AzVJC members are actually active, if that much.

I don't know who was responsible for the mis-fortunes of this last
weekend. IMO it was 50/50, 50% ASA4WDC management and 50% others, but
given this, it is up to the management to make sure the others are
taken care of. Thus, IMO the management sucked.

Go ahead and let me know where there is flaws in my logic, I have big
shoulders.

--James

PS - I hope you are still my friend. You are a good guy, a
little "hot headed", but a good guy.

--- In az_vjc@y..., <gotrox@c...> wrote:
> After talking to Francisco Mendoza on Saturday, seeing first hand
the events that transpired with the BLM, AZ Fish and Game, and the
Sheriff, I and several others, came to the same conclusion:
>
> We are in trouble!!
>
> I couldn't help but wonder if the AZVJC would be willing to risk
losing any ground to `wheel on over something as simple as a little
more structured approach in maintaining our hobby.
>
> It has been stated time and time again in this group
about "Organization" being a losing battle. I think we "4wheelers"
need to be more organized in our fight. Now I know what some of you
are going to say right off the get go. But if we plan to enjoy this
sport that we all partake in, then this organization of interests and
efforts needs to happen. I'm not saying that the AZVJC needs to
become an incorporated body, but belonging to ASA4WDC will help. You
can belong to other clubs that are part of ASA4WDC. Many of us are
already members indirectly through a 4WD club, but membership can be
individual too. My point is that we need to collectively show our
support and share one voice through the ASA4WDC - to keep the freedom
that we enjoy as far as using public lands. If everyone waits for
the next guy or next club to make our case with the land departments,
we'll lose any progress we've made to keep our trails open.
>
> As far as the trails that were being closed this weekend -
Jawbreaker was closed by the BLM - this came from Francisco Mendoza
himself. Martinez, Overdose, Bad Medicine and Brake Line - those
were closed by the ASA4WDC due to private land owner liability
issues. Whether we agree or not, it was ASA4WDC's decision, aiming
to prevent more land issues with the BLM about traveling over private
property.
>
> Are you all sure this is acceptable to you?
>
> Was there something that could have been done, but wasn't?
>
> Perhaps there is a way to become more actively involved in the
ASA4WDC, to ensure our voice is heard, and not just called on
for "Land issue" meetings when they need a sea of red shirts.
>
> After seeing so many AZVJC stickers at the Jamboree, it seems like
we have alot to lose here.
>
> I'm sure I will be flamed for bringing up this issue of
organization, but I will endure all that because I believe the topic
must be seriously discussed to ensure that we cover all perspectives
and ultimately achieve a collective voice to fight for our rights as
4 wheelers and access to our land.
>
> Neal Han****
> Arizona Rock Crawlers / AZVJC




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68333 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:55am
Subject: RE: 4-wheelers plight


What about the another approach... Why couldn't ASA4WDC make an addendum
or exception to their rules to accept us (AzVJC) as we are and invite us
as a member. I would think that with the strength we have shown it might
be in there best interest to do so. I really think the only thing we
would have to do is nominate and vote for a representative(s) to speak
for AzVJC at ASA4WDC meetings.

Now whether this will prevent another fiasco like this years Jamboree, I
doubt it but you never know.

Truth be told I can care less what people, groups and clubs or the
general public think of AzVJC. As long as we are morally doing the right
thing and teach good practices by example I don't have a problem being
part of AzVJC.

Joey K
93YJ



-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Mish [mailto:yldkat55@h...]
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 11:13 PM
To: Stu Olson; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; gotrox@c...
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight


Actually Stu, it is my hope that collectively we can have a larger voice
in the 4 wheeling arena, Right now, we simply aren't part of the process
unless we choose to be as individuals. Politicians listen to the voice
of one voter, they HEAR the voice of 2000 voters. I'm sure in your life
experience you may have found the same to be true. Although we may not
be talking about the formal arena of politics, 1 management agency may
more closely scrutinize the actions of an employee, of an RMP or land
use decision knowing that there are 2000 people strong behind that voice
in a meeting room.

The answer to some of your questions by the way, might be "NO", perhaps
time will tell you the answer to these since you have joined a club.
Personally, I think it may make you a more informed and EFFECTIVE voice.
Besides, who said anything about making you a better 4 wheeler? Maybe
You need to make THEM better! I think in your case Stu, you'd be better
off thinking along the lines of what you yourself are bringing to the
table, and not what you are going to get to eat!

What good would it have done if we had been a club?
Maybe you would have been the ASA4WDC delegate to remember to ask if
Jamboree things were cleared with the National Guard? Private land
owners? conflicting events, etc.

The fact that we are not more organized seems to make it easier for
those who wish to do nothing to continue to do so. It also makes it
EXTREMELY easy for those who are supposed to "Represent" us as
"Individuals" to become a little more "Comfy" in their lack of effort.

It's human nature when you are part of a "team effort" to pitch in and
do your share.(And also encourage others to join in).

There are those among us to which this 4 wheeling thing is just a fad,
like CB radios were or whatever, and that when it's no longer "Cool"
will sell their Jeeps, that's fine. But for those people who put forth a
serious effort to build their Jeeps into truly capable off road
machines, I say it might not be a bad idea to put as much effort into
making sure there's a place for you to enjoy it as you did to build it.
Organized 4 wheeling gives some people that capability. I recognize a
need for it now more than ever, and feel perhaps I should try to
convince others to feel the same way.

I know I didn't come near close to answering everything you had
questions about, but hopefully it helps.

Ohh yeah, no flame war here either Stu, we both know where the other is
coming from, (although I may not be as eloquent) and I respect your
input.

Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
To: "'Bill Mish'" <yldkat55@h...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>;
<gotrox@c...>
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 9:29 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight


> Bill, you bring up a good point.....and one that I have been thinking
> about during the past week or two.
>
> A couple of weeks ago, I joined an ASA4WDC affiliated club here in the

> area. So now, I am a card carrying certified member of the ASA4WDC,
> etc.
>
> However....the recent BLM land scoping meetings I attended had nothing

> to do with the fact that I was a club member. I stood up at both
> meetings and "had my day in court", so to speak. My comments went on
> record and from what I could tell, my input had no more nor no less
> weight than anyone else that spoke.
>
> This is my question, after thinking about all of these things over the

> past week. Will being an official club member cause me to make better

> comments at a land use meeting? Will it cause me to write more or
> better draft review comments on BLM management plans? Will I pick up
> more trash on the trail and bring it home with me? Will I attend more

> trail cleanups than I did before becoming an official member? Will I
> be able to better help new off-roaders learn the ropes by being a club

> member?
>
> In my opinion, I can do everyone one of the above things just as
> effectively as an individual as I can being a sanctioned club member.
> In fact....I did everyone one of those things, many times over, as an
> individual and un-member of the highly unorganized AZVJC.
>
> Now....don't get me wrong.....I am NOT against anyone joining a club
> in order to support our 4 wheelin' hobby (if I were, I would not have
> done it myself, right?).
>
> So....I am not trying to start a flame war here....but just trying to
> figure out if being a club member is really going to turn people into
> better off-roaders than they already are. If the answers to all of
> those questions above is yes, then I guess we need to make the AZVJC
> an official ASA4WDC affiliated club.
>
> Thinking more on this.....I suppose there is something to be said when

> you can tell a land management agency that you have 2100 club members
> who don't want a trail closed. However.....if we go the organized
> route and we charge dues (so that we can support the ASA and such), do

> you really think we are going to have 2100 dues paying members?
> Not.....I think we will have 20 or 30 or 40 or maybe even
> 50.....and.....we will have a LOT of people that still wheel together
> on the weekends, just like they have been doing for the past few
> years....and they won't belong to any club.
>
> I guess some of this is idle thinking that I have put into words.
> What I really want to see is more and more people become active in
> land management issues.....I want to see them attending
meetings....writing
> letters.....complaining to the higher ups about Fransisco.....etc.
If
> being a club will make that happen, then I am all for it. But deep
> down inside, I don't see more involvement from the people because we
> want them to belong to a club.
>
> On the flip side, you mentioned that in spite of all of the good and
> worthy things that the AZVJC did this past year, " they were hardly
> enough to keep us from being where we are in regards to the Jamboree
> and land issues
> in the Florence Junction area." So I ask you....what difference
would
> any of this have made if we HAD been a club? Hell.....some of were
even
> on TV (because we weren't in a club?) (please, no leather shorts
jokes!)
>
>
> The way I see it, the people that have the most to lose are the people

> who really love this sport.....and the way I see it, those that really

> do love this sport are already doing a lot of things to help prevent
> that from happening. The other folks are just sitting on the
> sidelines and enjoying the fruits of the labor of those that really do

> care.....and we know who those folks are, true?
>
> Anyone else have comments?
>
> Stu
> AZVJC / Arizona Lo Rangers / AZJC
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Mish [mailto:yldkat55@h...]
> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 9:10 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; gotrox@c...
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight
>
> I have resisted organization in the past, but now more than ever it
> seems to make perfect sense.
> Think about all the efforts put forth by this group in the last year,
> and
> although they had impact, and were very worthy, they were hardly
enough
> to
> keep us from being where we are in regards to the Jamboree and land
> issues
> in the Florence Junction area. That's pretty sad not only for me, but
> for
> allot of other people who attended the event.
>
> I saw allot of AZVJC people and stickers out there. Could it be that
> we were the largest group of participants?
> If so, then perhaps we have the most to lose.
>
> With the quality of people in this group, and their level of
> commitment to bettering our sport and public image, I think it would
> be a good choice. Especially if it means regaining control of the
> direction our sport is going.
>
>
> Bill Mish
> 1955 Willys CJ3B
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <gotrox@c...>
> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 8:24 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] 4-wheelers plight
>
>
> After talking to Francisco Mendoza on Saturday, seeing first hand the
> events that transpired with the BLM, AZ Fish and Game, and the
> Sheriff, I and several others, came to the same conclusion:
>
> We are in trouble!!
>
> I couldn't help but wonder if the AZVJC would be willing to risk
> losing any ground to 'wheel on over something as simple as a little
> more structured approach in maintaining our hobby.
>
> It has been stated time and time again in this group about
> "Organization" being a losing battle. I think we "4wheelers" need to
> be more organized in
> our fight. Now I know what some of you are going to say right off the
> get
> go. But if we plan to enjoy this sport that we all partake in, then
this
> organization of interests and efforts needs to happen. I'm not saying
> that
> the AZVJC needs to become an incorporated body, but belonging to
ASA4WDC
> will help. You can belong to other clubs that are part of ASA4WDC.
Many
> of
> us are already members indirectly through a 4WD club, but membership
can
> be
> individual too. My point is that we need to collectively show our
> support
> and share one voice through the ASA4WDC - to keep the freedom that we
> enjoy
> as far as using public lands. If everyone waits for the next guy or
> next
> club to make our case with the land departments, we'll lose any
progress
> we've made to keep our trails open.
>
> As far as the trails that were being closed this weekend - Jawbreaker
> was closed by the BLM - this came from Francisco Mendoza himself.
> Martinez, Overdose, Bad Medicine and Brake Line - those were closed by

> the ASA4WDC due
> to private land owner liability issues. Whether we agree or not, it
was
> ASA4WDC's decision, aiming to prevent more land issues with the BLM
> about
> traveling over private property.
>
> Are you all sure this is acceptable to you?
>
> Was there something that could have been done, but wasn't?
>
> Perhaps there is a way to become more actively involved in the
> ASA4WDC, to ensure our voice is heard, and not just called on for
> "Land issue" meetings
> when they need a sea of red shirts.
>
> After seeing so many AZVJC stickers at the Jamboree, it seems like we
> have alot to lose here.
>
> I'm sure I will be flamed for bringing up this issue of organization,
> but I will endure all that because I believe the topic must be
> seriously discussed
> to ensure that we cover all perspectives and ultimately achieve a
> collective
> voice to fight for our rights as 4 wheelers and access to our land.
>
> Neal Han****
> Arizona Rock Crawlers / AZVJC
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>



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