Yahoo Messages: 63337-63361

[blooddrive]

63337-63361

63337 From: swaders7 <swaders7@y...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 4:35pm
Subject: I need one!


Anyone know where a forgetful person can get a permit on such short
notice? I was too worried about my Jeep being in condition to go on
the run that I forgot I needed the permit. Any info would be great.
Thanks.

~Wade
'97 TJ


--- In az_vjc@y..., "Kyle Hagan" <Kyle@s...> wrote:
> at 4:20pm only one left.
>
> Kyle
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <SIMONLUKER@A...>
> To: <az_vjc@y...>
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 1:49 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] 4 Wheelers has 10 permits left
>
>
> > only 10 left 2:00pm
> > Simon
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >



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63338 From: Scott Kruize <skruize@c...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 4:37pm
Subject: RE: I need one!


You can always buy them at the State Land office downtown. Don't know
the address but it shouldn't be too hard to look up.

Scott K

-----Original Message-----
From: swaders7 [mailto:swaders7@y...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 4:35 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] I need one!


Anyone know where a forgetful person can get a permit on such short
notice? I was too worried about my Jeep being in condition to go on
the run that I forgot I needed the permit. Any info would be great.
Thanks.

~Wade
'97 TJ


--- In az_vjc@y..., "Kyle Hagan" <Kyle@s...> wrote:
> at 4:20pm only one left.
>
> Kyle
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <SIMONLUKER@A...>
> To: <az_vjc@y...>
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 1:49 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] 4 Wheelers has 10 permits left
>
>
> > only 10 left 2:00pm
> > Simon
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


63339 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 4:58pm
Subject: RE: FW: Crown King Early Run Heads Up


That being said for the Turkey Creek folks I will try to keep a lively
pace as well. I will be breaking the 20+ Jeeps expected to be going into
2 or 3 sub groups with a leader in each. This should keep us moving at a
good pace. As a group completes an obstacle they can move on. Keep in
mind the obstacles are only in the first 3rd to half of the trail. The
rest of the trail is just that a trail through narrow brush with some
creek crossings and switch backs. These crossing may or may not have
water. On the 4th there was no water but as I look north today there
could be a fair amount of rain fall in the area.

Lastly... PLEASE check your equipment. Oil, water, spring eye bolts ;)
or whatever, make sure your Jeep will make it. If your Jeep is
overheating, burning excessive amounts of oil, you think you have a
cracked head or just plain old has an attitude think hard about if you
should be taking a trail up. Both the back way and the Turkey Creek
trails are very long to be towing a Jeep out of. Hell Joe West took the
*road* up to CK last year.:o

Joey K
93YJ

PS if your signed up for the Turkey Creek run and need to get a hold of
me 602.469.0117 is my cell phone.



-----Original Message-----
From: Hackle [mailto:hackle@q...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:55 PM
To: Az_Vjc
Subject: [az_vjc] FW: Crown King Early Run Heads Up




Both Stu and myself will have a quick drivers meeting to go over
this again, but here goes. Everyone please remember at this point we
have over 60 Jeeps in the first two groups. By the law of averages
somebody is going to break and hold things up. Please stay as mellow as
possible. Stu and I have been talking and pretty much came up with the
same idea. I know the usual method is to stop after and obstacle and go
back and shoot pics or spot. To get this many vehicles through in a
timely manor we need to try and keep moving. Once you reach the top of
the obstacle either wait until you see the next vehicle crest or go back
and spot them if they need it. But as soon as they get to the top you
must get in your vehicle and leave. I am not trying to turn the run into
a race but we all want to get there at a decent hour. I want everyone to
have fun and stay safe. This will be a great time to get to know
everyone on the run:) I am sure the c/b will be used a great deal if you
don't have one you might want to look into a quick install. I think you
will find it worth it. Looking forward to leading the parade:) Jim F.
aka Hackle

I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member. "Groucho
Marx" Member of the original dirty half dozen.
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/index.htm/
http://www.rockrats.org/









Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


63340 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 5:03pm
Subject: Re: Re: Trail Ratings WHY?


Because you have 5 basic categories, and the ".5", "+", and "-" are
indicators for a single category.

10 individual categories strikes me as over kill, and I doubt the nuances
between them would be remembered or used in any consistent way.

Anyway, that's how I look at it.

Doug

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:00 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Trail Ratings WHY?


> Would someone please explain to me how a 0 to 10 system, incremented by
> whole numbers is MORE complicated than a 0 to 5 system incrementing by
HALF
> numbers? There is still TEN different ratings (not counting zero) it
doesn't
> matter to me if we call it 4.5 or 9 -- it is still the same rating. If a 5
> scale rating system is recognized more than a 10 scale, then so be it, but
> we still need to update the descriptions.
>
> Really, the numbers don't mean too much.
> 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
> OR
> 0.0, 0.5, 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, 2.5, 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, 5.0
>
> What needs to change is the Rating Descriptions, Required Equipment and
> Recommended Equipment. My suggestion is to rewrite the descriptions and
> then reclassify the trails in accordance with those revised descriptions.
It
> is obvious that many trails need to be reclassified, and I think that we
> have a unique opportunity to redefine the trail ratings.
>
> Take a look at the second draft:
>
> http://www.azvjc.org/trails/altratings.asp
>
> Remember the reasoning behind this is to educate new Wheelers. The
obscure
> ratings we currently use don't seem to differ greatly from 3.5 to 4.0 to
4.5
> While the trails represented by these ratings do (FR42, L. Terminator,
Axle
> Alley). With the rating system I've proposed, there is a bigger
difference
> between FR42 and L. Terminator (2.0 vs 3.0) and L. Terminator to Axle
Alley
> (3.0 vs 4.5)
>
> Also I'm not trying to permanently rate these trails, just trying to offer
> MY idea of where they'd fit in. Some of the more extreme wheelers may want
> to move some of the trails I've never done before from one rating into
> another as well.
>
> - Mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


63341 From: Barry Hallsted <barry@h...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 4:54pm
Subject: RE: Digest Number 2656


I am looking to get into the sport. While I've owned many 4x4's for hunting,
etc. I'd like to get into something that is capable of more challenges.

I'd love to build a jeep that is street legal and capable of daily driving
but also capable of the trails in the area.

Is it reasonable to purchase a frame (or have one built), body, drive train
(say Chevy 350 etc.)etc. and build a street legal Jeep from scratch or
should I buy an existing Jeep and start from there?

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Barry Hallsted

-----Original Message-----
From: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:az_vjc@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 4:11 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Digest Number 2656


There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. RE: muddin with a rockcrawler rig?
From: "Siade, Randy" <randy.siade@u...>
2. Re: muddin with a rockcrawler rig?
From: "Jesus Chio" <jchio@a...>
3. RE: muddin with a rockcrawler rig?
From: "Siade, Randy" <randy.siade@u...>
4. RE: United Association
From: "Hackle" <hackle@q...>
5. RE: Trail Ratings
From: "Scott Kruize" <skruize@c...>
6. RE: Re: Trail Ratings WHY?
From: "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...>
7. Re: Camping supplies/OHV supplies
From: "Robert Peck" <rlpii@q...>
8. RE: Trail Ratings
From: "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...>
9. RE: Re: Trail Ratings WHY?
From: "Sandee McCullen" <mccullen@c...>
10. Re: Trail Ratings
From: "tomas2691" <tomasr@a...>
11. RE: Trail Ratings
From: "Scott Kruize" <skruize@c...>
12. RE: Trail Ratings
From: "Sandee McCullen" <mccullen@c...>
13. FREDTJ: STL
From: Jake Wagner <jakewagner@y...>
14. RE: Trail Ratings
From: "Sandee McCullen" <mccullen@c...>
15. RE: Re: Trail Ratings WHY?
From: "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...>
16. RE: Re: Trail Ratings WHY?
From: "Hackle" <hackle@q...>
17. RE: Trail Ratings
From: "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...>
18. Re: Trail Ratings
From: "Robert Peck" <rlpii@q...>
19. RE: FREDTJ: STL
From: "Sandee McCullen" <mccullen@c...>
20. RE: WAS Re: United Association...NOW beers on Stu!
From: "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
21. RE: United Association
From: "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
22. FW: Crown King Early Run Heads Up
From: "Hackle" <hackle@q...>
23. Re: FREDTJ: STL
From: FredTJ <fredtj@c...>
24. Re: Re: Trail Ratings WHY?
From: FredTJ <fredtj@c...>
25. Re: Best winch prices
From: "The Acuna Family" <mkacuna@c...>


__________________________________________________ ______________________
__________________________________________________ ______________________

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:10:24 -0500
From: "Siade, Randy" <randy.siade@u...>
Subject: RE: muddin with a rockcrawler rig?

Are you running a manual or auto? 4.11s are a bit on the high side for 44s.
The boggers would do great wish they where available when I was boggin. When
I mean tall and skinny I mean like 38-50" x 10.5 -12.5. Lots of competitor
will use tractor tires that are in the 50" range and only 10-12" wide.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jesus Chio [mailto:jchio@a...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 1:08 PM
To: Siade, Randy; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] muddin with a rockcrawler rig?


Yehaw! another vote on the 44" boggers

What gears would be OK to run with those tires?? My 350 is rated around
400/400 and I have 4.11 gears right now.

Even that the challenge wont be only mudboging, but tracks, trails and
such...

Skiny could be the 38sx x 14.50?

Im sure there will be a ton of TJ's (4&6cyl), one or two big blocked trucks
and CJs of all kind




Jesus Chio
www.alloffroad.com <http://www.alloffroad.com>

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----- Original Message -----
From: Siade, <mailto:randy.siade@u...> Randy
To: Jesus Chio <mailto:jchio@a...> ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 2:47 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] muddin with a rockcrawler rig?

Hey Jesus;

I came from mud country (Indiana). I use to rent a 5 stall car garage with a
friend that built pro-stock cars and I built Mudboggers. I competed with a
78 Chevy step side that had a 350ci pushing 410hp, TH425 trans, 4:88 gears
with detroits and 40x17 Gumbo monster mudders. Lots of fun. Here are some
tips.

There are two thoughts behind bogging. One is to use very tall skinny tires
do you can get down to bottom of the mud pit where the ground is hard for
best traction. The other (this is the one I used) is to use a very wide tall
tire for flotation, you need to keep your speed up with lots of horse power
to stay on top of the mud.

Forget about keeping the mud out of you drive train. Put a snorkel on you
engineer air intake and run it to the top of you jeeps windshield.
Since you are using a Jeep it is very light compared to a truck so I would
suggest, if you have the horse power, to use the high speed flotation method
which means you should have very wide tires.



-----Original Message-----
From: Jesus Chio [mailto:jchio@a...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:56 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] muddin with a rockcrawler rig?


Hello guys,

Im sure that 90% or more of you are rockcrawlers, that said I think it will
be a lot of help what you have to say about mud since my Jeep is set for
rockcrawling only (almost?) too.

What modifications would you do in order to get your rig mud capable? Say
you wanna go to LA and do some mudbogs and hit the local mud trails...

Im going to a ramsey challenge that is supposed to be 98% mud so I wanna get
the CJ ready, even if that means regearing or getting a different size of
tires.

Im running a 350H0, 4.11s and 38.5Sx, D60s, Atlas II and Sm420. SOA with
Rancho 9012s...

Any help will be appreciated!





Jesus Chio
www.alloffroad.com <http://www.alloffroad.com>

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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.

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<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.




[This message contained attachments]



__________________________________________________ ______________________
__________________________________________________ ______________________

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:42:12 -0500
From: "Jesus Chio" <jchio@a...>
Subject: Re: muddin with a rockcrawler rig?

MessageSM420 is 7.0 and Atlas 4.3 so my crawling is great. I want some more
deep gearing (around 4.88) so its not that weak (as a 5.3ish) but also not
that fast.

I got 2 44" boggers in my garage right now, need 2 front tires and Im set on
that side, Ill regear and bring both 38.5 and 44s on the lowboy so I can
choose once we see whats gonna be up there
----- Original Message -----
From: Siade, Randy
To: 'Jesus Chio' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 4:10 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] muddin with a rockcrawler rig?


Are you running a manual or auto? 4.11s are a bit on the high side for
44s. The boggers would do great wish they where available when I was boggin.
When I mean tall and skinny I mean like 38-50" x 10.5 -12.5. Lots of
competitor will use tractor tires that are in the 50" range and only 10-12"
wide.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jesus Chio [mailto:jchio@a...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 1:08 PM
To: Siade, Randy; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] muddin with a rockcrawler rig?


Yehaw! another vote on the 44" boggers

What gears would be OK to run with those tires?? My 350 is rated around
400/400 and I have 4.11 gears right now.

Even that the challenge wont be only mudboging, but tracks, trails and
such...

Skiny could be the 38sx x 14.50?

Im sure there will be a ton of TJ's (4&6cyl), one or two big blocked
trucks and CJs of all kind



Jesus Chio
www.alloffroad.com

------------------------------------------------------------------
GOT .COM?
www.offroadhost.com
------------------------------------------------------------------




----- Original Message -----
From: Siade, Randy
To: Jesus Chio ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 2:47 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] muddin with a rockcrawler rig?


Hey Jesus;

I came from mud country (Indiana). I use to rent a 5 stall car garage
with a friend that built pro-stock cars and I built Mudboggers. I competed
with a 78 Chevy step side that had a 350ci pushing 410hp, TH425 trans, 4:88
gears with detroits and 40x17 Gumbo monster mudders. Lots of fun. Here are
some tips.

There are two thoughts behind bogging. One is to use very tall skinny
tires do you can get down to bottom of the mud pit where the ground is hard
for best traction. The other (this is the one I used) is to use a very wide
tall tire for flotation, you need to keep your speed up with lots of horse
power to stay on top of the mud.

Forget about keeping the mud out of you drive train. Put a snorkel on
you engineer air intake and run it to the top of you jeeps windshield.
Since you are using a Jeep it is very light compared to a truck so I
would suggest, if you have the horse power, to use the high speed flotation
method which means you should have very wide tires.


-----Original Message-----
From: Jesus Chio [mailto:jchio@a...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:56 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] muddin with a rockcrawler rig?


Hello guys,

Im sure that 90% or more of you are rockcrawlers, that said I think
it will be a lot of help what you have to say about mud since my Jeep is set
for rockcrawling only (almost?) too.

What modifications would you do in order to get your rig mud
capable? Say you wanna go to LA and do some mudbogs and hit the local mud
trails...

Im going to a ramsey challenge that is supposed to be 98% mud so I
wanna get the CJ ready, even if that means regearing or getting a different
size of tires.

Im running a 350H0, 4.11s and 38.5Sx, D60s, Atlas II and Sm420. SOA
with Rancho 9012s...

Any help will be appreciated!




Jesus Chio
www.alloffroad.com

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www.offroadhost.com
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[This message contained attachments]



__________________________________________________ ______________________
__________________________________________________ ______________________

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:45:49 -0500
From: "Siade, Randy" <randy.siade@u...>
Subject: RE: muddin with a rockcrawler rig?

Lots of boggers will use a swampers in from and bogger in the rear. They do
this because they do not want the front to dig in as much as the rear. Helps
keep the vehicle floating on top.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jesus Chio [mailto:jchio@a...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 2:42 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; Siade, Randy
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] muddin with a rockcrawler rig?


SM420 is 7.0 and Atlas 4.3 so my crawling is great. I want some more deep
gearing (around 4.88) so its not that weak (as a 5.3ish) but also not that
fast.

I got 2 44" boggers in my garage right now, need 2 front tires and Im set on
that side, Ill regear and bring both 38.5 and 44s on the lowboy so I can
choose once we see whats gonna be up there

----- Original Message -----
From: Siade, <mailto:randy.siade@u...> Randy
To: 'Jesus Chio' <mailto:jchio@a...> ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 4:10 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] muddin with a rockcrawler rig?

Are you running a manual or auto? 4.11s are a bit on the high side for 44s.
The boggers would do great wish they where available when I was boggin. When
I mean tall and skinny I mean like 38-50" x 10.5 -12.5. Lots of competitor
will use tractor tires that are in the 50" range and only 10-12" wide.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jesus Chio [mailto:jchio@a...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 1:08 PM
To: Siade, Randy; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] muddin with a rockcrawler rig?


Yehaw! another vote on the 44" boggers

What gears would be OK to run with those tires?? My 350 is rated around
400/400 and I have 4.11 gears right now.

Even that the challenge wont be only mudboging, but tracks, trails and
such...

Skiny could be the 38sx x 14.50?

Im sure there will be a ton of TJ's (4&6cyl), one or two big blocked trucks
and CJs of all kind




Jesus Chio
www.alloffroad.com <http://www.alloffroad.com>

------------------------------------------------------------------
GOT .COM?
www.offroadhost.com <http://www.offroadhost.com>
------------------------------------------------------------------





----- Original Message -----
From: Siade, Randy <mailto:randy.siade@u...>
To: Jesus Chio <mailto:jchio@a...> ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 2:47 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] muddin with a rockcrawler rig?

Hey Jesus;

I came from mud country (Indiana). I use to rent a 5 stall car garage with a
friend that built pro-stock cars and I built Mudboggers. I competed with a
78 Chevy step side that had a 350ci pushing 410hp, TH425 trans, 4:88 gears
with detroits and 40x17 Gumbo monster mudders. Lots of fun. Here are some
tips.

There are two thoughts behind bogging. One is to use very tall skinny tires
do you can get down to bottom of the mud pit where the ground is hard for
best traction. The other (this is the one I used) is to use a very wide tall
tire for flotation, you need to keep your speed up with lots of horse power
to stay on top of the mud.

Forget about keeping the mud out of you drive train. Put a snorkel on you
engineer air intake and run it to the top of you jeeps windshield.
Since you are using a Jeep it is very light compared to a truck so I would
suggest, if you have the horse power, to use the high speed flotation method
which means you should have very wide tires.



-----Original Message-----
From: Jesus Chio [mailto:jchio@a...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:56 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] muddin with a rockcrawler rig?


Hello guys,

Im sure that 90% or more of you are rockcrawlers, that said I think it will
be a lot of help what you have to say about mud since my Jeep is set for
rockcrawling only (almost?) too.

What modifications would you do in order to get your rig mud capable? Say
you wanna go to LA and do some mudbogs and hit the local mud trails...

Im going to a ramsey challenge that is supposed to be 98% mud so I wanna get
the CJ ready, even if that means regearing or getting a different size of
tires.

Im running a 350H0, 4.11s and 38.5Sx, D60s, Atlas II and Sm420. SOA with
Rancho 9012s...

Any help will be appreciated!





Jesus Chio
www.alloffroad.com <http://www.alloffroad.com>

------------------------------------------------------------------
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




[This message contained attachments]



__________________________________________________ ______________________
__________________________________________________ ______________________

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 14:47:12 -0700
From: "Hackle" <hackle@q...>
Subject: RE: United Association

Stu I said $20 dollars not two:) If anyone on the 6:00 run wants to make a
donation I will volunteer to introduce you to Mike Chatfield:) Jim F.

I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member. "Groucho
Marx"
Member of the original dirty half dozen.
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/index.htm/
http://www.rockrats.org/


-----Original Message-----
From: Stu Olson [mailto:solson8@q...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:36 PM
To: Chatfield, Mike; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] United Association


Mike....good idea. Count me in!

I'll volunteer to collect any donations for United on the 6:30AM run.
Heck....I am going to charge everyone $2 anyways! (that was what Hackle
told me to do so we would have enough $$ to get something cold to drink
after the run was over!) LOL

Stu

Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 11:30 AM
To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [az_vjc] United Association


All,

Sandee has informed me that it is possible for the AzVJC to join United as
an association. A minimum of $50 is needed for this to happen -- Ideally we
want to send $100 or more.

With association, we get to send 2 Delegates to United's yearly meeting
(next year's meeting is in Flagstaff); so we'd need some nominations and a
vote.

If someone would like to volunteer to collect money at Crown King this
weekend that would be great (or I can do it if no one volunteers). Also I'd
like to have a PayPal account set up so that those not participating in this
weekend's events can donate.

This is a voluntary donation! If we receive more than we need, then we'll
hold a vote to determine what to do with the extra.

ALSO! We'll be receiving an electronic version of the newsletter, which I
will put online for everyone to download -- or I will e-mail it to those
interested.

Thanks,

Mike Chatfield
Programmer/Analyst
Pegasus Solutions
(602) 861-7686
mike.chatfield@p...


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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 14:55:15 -0700
From: "Scott Kruize" <skruize@c...>
Subject: RE: Trail Ratings

Sandee,

I couldn't agree more. For instance, I was very upset when I found out
about the White Line bypass on Lower Terminator. I feel that if you
can't make the Whiteline obstacle then you shouldn't be on the trail.

Scott K

-----Original Message-----
From: Sandee McCullen [mailto:mccullen@c...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 1:32 PM
To: AZVJC
Subject: [az_vjc] Trail Ratings


Trail Ratings should not be what someone "thinks" they are, they are
firm guidelines...... mainly aimed at your "equipment" more than your
concept.

It makes sense that someone with a stock CJ would think Axle Alley
should be a 5.0 whereas a driver with a new TJ or to the extreme with a
fully modified vehicle would think it's much easier......... IT IS.
Mike's "classifications" are good ones and are fairly in line with
what's below. I think the problem is we need to get back to what a
"rating" should be...... it is not "someones opinion" of how hard the
trail is.

If we use a 1-5 rating I would think common sense would tell us that
makes a 3.0 rating mid range. A stock vehicle should be able to do this
level without difficulty but probably with some challenge. A 3.5 is
requiring or recommending a semi-modified and/or a minimum of a limited
slip locking device, which means "stock" should not be doing this level
trail........ or if your vehicle only has a rear locker and the rating
guide recommends/requires lockers front & rear you again should not be
on that level trail. I know we ALL want to "meet the challenge" but
when we do so with a vehicle that is not equipped to do so is when the
"impact" starts showing on our trails......... or by-passes start
showing up. By-Passes are the FIRST thing to PERMANENTLY CLOSE OUR
TRAILS!!!!!! If you have to make a by-pass you definitely do not belong
on that trail.

As youn'uns we don't "run" before we "crawl".............???

The main issue that I harp <boy, that word was hard to say but it's
true> at the agencies is: CONSISTENCY. If we expect consistency from
our land managers why wouldn't we have the same within ourselves??

I go back to meetings tomorrow so ya'll won't have to listen to me
tomorrow!!

Sandee

TRAIL RATINGS
(1 - 5)

The ASA4WDC follows the following rating system to establish the
relative difficulty of trails. Recognizing that trails are not constant
in their degree of difficulty, the index requires that each trail be
rated by the most difficult situation encountered.

1 Passable by stock and two-wheel drive vehicles; improved dirt,
gravel etc.

1.5 Unimproved dirt, chuck holes, dips, eroded cross cuts or sharp
curves.
Two wheel drive may not be able to do.

EASY
2 Some mud holes, rocks, washs, and loose dirt hill climbs. Four
wheel
drive high range will be needed. Street tires are acceptable.

2.5 Slow easy going with four wheel drive. Using low range some to
minimize terrain and road damage. Some 10" - 15" rocks/ledges. Street
tires are acceptable.

MODERATE
3 Four wheel drive required due to terrain and loose traction for
safe, easy
travel. Rocks and ledges 12 - 15". Lo-range gears used. Challenges
for novice driver. Clearance advised. Street tires unacceptable.

3.5 Wash beds, 15" - 20" rock ledges, hill climbs, larger boulders.
Four wheel drive, low range used. Ground clearance definitely needed.
Traction device required in the rear. Not recommended for the novice
driver. Street tires are not acceptable. HARD
4.0 Four wheel drive required, usually in low range. Greatest amount
of
ground clearance due to moderate - large sized rocks and obstacles. Low
air pressure, flotation tires and locked rear differentials are
required. Jacks and winches advised. Street tires not acceptable.
Recommend experienced drivers only.

EXTREME
4.5 Front and rear locked differentials required. Low gears and
maximum
clearance needed. Large boulders, steep inclines, washouts, & off
camber situations. Recommend experienced drivers only. Winches are
sometimes required, always recommended. 33" tires or bigger
recommended.

4.5+ Same as above but recommend a fully modified vehicle, winch, and
spare parts. Experienced drivers only.




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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:00:46 -0700
From: "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...>
Subject: RE: Re: Trail Ratings WHY?

Would someone please explain to me how a 0 to 10 system, incremented by
whole numbers is MORE complicated than a 0 to 5 system incrementing by HALF
numbers? There is still TEN different ratings (not counting zero) it doesn't
matter to me if we call it 4.5 or 9 -- it is still the same rating. If a 5
scale rating system is recognized more than a 10 scale, then so be it, but
we still need to update the descriptions.

Really, the numbers don't mean too much.
0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
OR
0.0, 0.5, 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, 2.5, 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, 5.0

What needs to change is the Rating Descriptions, Required Equipment and
Recommended Equipment. My suggestion is to rewrite the descriptions and
then reclassify the trails in accordance with those revised descriptions. It
is obvious that many trails need to be reclassified, and I think that we
have a unique opportunity to redefine the trail ratings.

Take a look at the second draft:

http://www.azvjc.org/trails/altratings.asp

Remember the reasoning behind this is to educate new Wheelers. The obscure
ratings we currently use don't seem to differ greatly from 3.5 to 4.0 to 4.5
While the trails represented by these ratings do (FR42, L. Terminator, Axle
Alley). With the rating system I've proposed, there is a bigger difference
between FR42 and L. Terminator (2.0 vs 3.0) and L. Terminator to Axle Alley
(3.0 vs 4.5)

Also I'm not trying to permanently rate these trails, just trying to offer
MY idea of where they'd fit in. Some of the more extreme wheelers may want
to move some of the trails I've never done before from one rating into
another as well.

- Mike



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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:03:00 -0700
From: "Robert Peck" <rlpii@q...>
Subject: Re: Camping supplies/OHV supplies

Sandee,
Here is a list that I would suggest:

Recovery Strap
Extra Water (3-5 Gallons)
Extra Fuel
Hi Lift Jack
Bottle Jack
Lug Wrench
Various Tools
Blanket
Matches/lighter
Flash Light - Head Lamp (Head Lamp keeps your hands free for night
repairs.)
On Board Air
Spare Tire
Food for at least one extra day
Signal Mirror
First Aid Kit (A good one)
Sun Screen
Insect Replant
Jacket
Hat
Knife
Side Arm (if you are so inclined)
Extra Set of keys for your vehicle
Wear good walking shoes
Gloves
Tarp
Rope/straps
A length of chain
An assortment of nuts and bolts, wire, tape, hoses, belts.
Spare Axles
Spare U Joints
Spare Hub
Shovel
Ax
Cell Phone
CB Radio
Camera

And, extra Jeepin Buddies to tow you home. :o}

Hope this gets you started . . . . .
Good Luck,
Bob
74 CJ-5
CANT W8

Sandee McCullen wrote:

> I need your help!!!!
>
> A while back someone was posting a "list" of needed camping supplies
and/or
> trail supplies etc. I have been appointed to a United Four Wheel Drive
> committee that is working at putting together an "Educational booklet"
> covering SUV "101" type safety driving rules as well as incorporating info
> re what is needed when traveling "outside the urban sprawl"......
>
> Any/all help, lists or ideas would be appreciated.
>
> Sandee
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:04:47 -0700
From: "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...>
Subject: RE: Trail Ratings

It would be really nice to be able to add a "Gate Keeper" type obstacle to
the entrance of every trail... a sort of "you must be this tall to ride this
ride..." or rather "your Jeep must be this capable to run this trail..."

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Kruize [mailto:skruize@c...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 2:55 PM
To: 'Sandee McCullen'; 'AZVJC'
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Trail Ratings


Sandee,

I couldn't agree more. For instance, I was very upset when I found out
about the White Line bypass on Lower Terminator. I feel that if you
can't make the Whiteline obstacle then you shouldn't be on the trail.

Scott K



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Message: 9
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:02:25 -0700
From: "Sandee McCullen" <mccullen@c...>
Subject: RE: Re: Trail Ratings WHY?

Difficulity has nothing to do with it. CONSISTENCY is the key word. The
1-5 rating system is being used INTERNATIONALLY with the exception of Jeep
Jamboree...........

If 1-5 incremented in tenths is as easy as 1-10 incremented by whole numbers
why not stay with CONSISTENCY. Stay with 1-5

Just me again. S.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:01 PM
> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Trail Ratings WHY?
>
>
> Would someone please explain to me how a 0 to 10 system, incremented by
> whole numbers is MORE complicated than a 0 to 5 system
> incrementing by HALF
> numbers? There is still TEN different ratings (not counting zero)
> it doesn't
> matter to me if we call it 4.5 or 9 -- it is still the same rating. If a 5
> scale rating system is recognized more than a 10 scale, then so be it, but
> we still need to update the descriptions.
>
> Really, the numbers don't mean too much.
> 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
> OR
> 0.0, 0.5, 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, 2.5, 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, 5.0
>
> What needs to change is the Rating Descriptions, Required Equipment and
> Recommended Equipment. My suggestion is to rewrite the descriptions and
> then reclassify the trails in accordance with those revised
> descriptions. It
> is obvious that many trails need to be reclassified, and I think that we
> have a unique opportunity to redefine the trail ratings.
>
> Take a look at the second draft:
>
> http://www.azvjc.org/trails/altratings.asp
>
> Remember the reasoning behind this is to educate new Wheelers.
> The obscure
> ratings we currently use don't seem to differ greatly from 3.5 to
> 4.0 to 4.5
> While the trails represented by these ratings do (FR42, L.
> Terminator, Axle
> Alley). With the rating system I've proposed, there is a bigger
> difference
> between FR42 and L. Terminator (2.0 vs 3.0) and L. Terminator to
> Axle Alley
> (3.0 vs 4.5)
>
> Also I'm not trying to permanently rate these trails, just trying to offer
> MY idea of where they'd fit in. Some of the more extreme wheelers may want
> to move some of the trails I've never done before from one rating into
> another as well.
>
> - Mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>



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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 22:12:15 -0000
From: "tomas2691" <tomasr@a...>
Subject: Re: Trail Ratings

That could be a benefit to both our trails and to those who
would otherwise get in over their heads. But as soon as you
attempted to do that someone would cry "who died and made you
the trail god?".

;-)

-Roger

--- In az_vjc@y..., "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...> wrote:
> It would be really nice to be able to add a "Gate Keeper" type
obstacle to
> the entrance of every trail... a sort of "you must be this tall to
ride this
> ride..." or rather "your Jeep must be this capable to run this
trail..."
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Kruize [mailto:skruize@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 2:55 PM
> To: 'Sandee McCullen'; 'AZVJC'
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Trail Ratings
>
>
> Sandee,
>
> I couldn't agree more. For instance, I was very upset when I found
out
> about the White Line bypass on Lower Terminator. I feel that if you
> can't make the Whiteline obstacle then you shouldn't be on the
trail.
>
> Scott K



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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:13:36 -0700
From: "Scott Kruize" <skruize@c...>
Subject: RE: Trail Ratings

Yeah, but there would always be big stack of rocks in front of it. :(

Scott

-----Original Message-----
From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:05 PM
To: 'AZVJC'
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Trail Ratings


It would be really nice to be able to add a "Gate Keeper" type obstacle
to the entrance of every trail... a sort of "you must be this tall to
ride this ride..." or rather "your Jeep must be this capable to run this
trail..."

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Kruize [mailto:skruize@c...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 2:55 PM
To: 'Sandee McCullen'; 'AZVJC'
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Trail Ratings


Sandee,

I couldn't agree more. For instance, I was very upset when I found out
about the White Line bypass on Lower Terminator. I feel that if you
can't make the Whiteline obstacle then you shouldn't be on the trail.

Scott K




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/






__________________________________________________ ______________________
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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:08:07 -0700
From: "Sandee McCullen" <mccullen@c...>
Subject: RE: Trail Ratings

Do you honestly think these guys/gals that are entering trails above their
"vehicle" capabilities are going to listen to a "gate keeper" any more than
they "read" the rating criteria?? Right?!!!.......... I don't want to be
the one at the 4.0+ trails that everyone seems to think they're capable of
doing nowdays.

When the statewide route inventory is complete (within the next 18 months -
2 years) the agencies will be posting signs at the trailheads of all the
"designated trails". They will be posting similar to what I recently
sent...... Easy, Moderate, Hard, Extreme but without the "numbering".
The access maps will have the "numbering" level criteria listed but the
trailheads will not. They will be basing their rating criteria on the "1-5"
rating system.

Sandee

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:05 PM
> To: 'AZVJC'
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Trail Ratings
>
>
> It would be really nice to be able to add a "Gate Keeper" type obstacle to
> the entrance of every trail... a sort of "you must be this tall
> to ride this
> ride..." or rather "your Jeep must be this capable to run this trail..."
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Kruize [mailto:skruize@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 2:55 PM
> To: 'Sandee McCullen'; 'AZVJC'
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Trail Ratings
>
>
> Sandee,
>
> I couldn't agree more. For instance, I was very upset when I found out
> about the White Line bypass on Lower Terminator. I feel that if you
> can't make the Whiteline obstacle then you shouldn't be on the trail.
>
> Scott K
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>



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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:21:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jake Wagner <jakewagner@y...>
Subject: FREDTJ: STL


Fred:

What confuses me is how can it be "State Trust Land," but yet it's private
land and land swaps are made with private contactors, I.E. the current
developments in the White Tanks area.

I understand the land is sold off and used to fund schools, but it's "State
Trust Land." Not Jake or Fred's Trust Land, and the money goes to the State
to fund our school system not to our pockets for our own personal use. I'm
usually one to understand things, but this I have never understood! So Why
aren't the properties our homes sit on State Trust Land? We own the private
property?

Jake, very confused


From: "FredTJ" <fredtj@c...>
Subject: Re: STL Permits

STL is different than BLM or FS land. For one, STL is not public land,
it's private property. Also, by law, the State is "required" to make
money for education (and other things) from the land, which is why
permits are issued (for a fee and not free). Additional income comes from
sale of the land also. The money that the State takes in from STL is
suppose (by law) to be more than what's required to maintain it. STL, is
"for profit" private property. I think this is one of the things that
some people keep forgetting about.

Cheers,
Fred

----- Original Message -----
From: Jake Wagner
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:22 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] STL Permits


Sandee and I have exchanged a few e-mails and I figured I'd throw
this out to the club since a few are complaining about the cost of the
permit. A $20 Family Permit breaks down to $0.38 cents a week, and a $15
Individual Permit breaks down to $0.28 Cents a week. If you can't
afford it then you shouldn't be driving a Jeep!

On top of this most of my friends and I throw about $800 to $1,000 a
year at our TJs, $15/20 is a tank of gas people. I highly recommend
that each and everyone in the club has one because I have no sympathy for
someone who goes on a run and gets a minimun of a $500 fine. I myself
was ignorant and did not know that one was needed, but you bet your
butt I went out and purchased one and everyone of my passengers has one .
All my regular wheeling friends also have them and we encourage all of
you to purchase one.

I don't agree with the permit, but I'd rather pay $15 than $500. I'm
already paying taxes, why should I have to pay for a permit to use the
land? BLM and the Forest Service do not require one and the money to
maintain the roads, etc come out of my paycheck via taxes every week.

See you all on the CK run, can't wait to trail test the body lift and
motor mount lift Scott K, Joey K and I put on my TJ tonight.

Jake




---------------------------------
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HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs

[This message contained attachments]



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Message: 14
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:17:41 -0700
From: "Sandee McCullen" <mccullen@c...>
Subject: RE: Trail Ratings

Sorry Mike........... I misread the "gate keeper" definition.

The agencies WILL be building obstacles at the trailheads of certain
trails.......... the reason and object of this is:
to build an obstacle harder or as hard as any obstacle within the trail
itself thusly eliminating "some" of the ingress of the vehicles not yet
qualified to "meet the challenge". If we continue to see "rocks stacked"
and don't see some respectful wheel'n the trail will simply be CLOSED. The
best example of this is Jawbreaker......... if the BLM had their way this
trail would have been closed to ALL motorized use two years ago. I have
pounded the fact that mitigating actions were needed first to see if they
would work. My point made. If the BLM puts money into getting obstacles
built and the OHV community abuses this issue................. they no
longer have to deal with it. The trail will be PERMANENTLY CLOSED and
someone will end up on my "hit list"!!!!!!!!!

Too many of us have worked hard and long to bring "respectability" to our
sport.......... we are the ones that MUST also bring "education" to our
sport. The days of being able to pretty much do as we please are gone.....
and will not be back. If we want to have an "open trail system" in our
state we best get on the action page and stop the ABUSE. The midwest and
east have NO open trails............. EVERYTHING is in a park of which they
pay anywhere from $5.00 a day to $35.00 day.

Me again......... sorry. Sandee

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sandee McCullen [mailto:mccullen@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:08 PM
> To: Chatfield, Mike; 'AZVJC'
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Trail Ratings
>
>
> Do you honestly think these guys/gals that are entering trails
> above their "vehicle" capabilities are going to listen to a "gate
> keeper" any more than they "read" the rating criteria??
> Right?!!!.......... I don't want to be the one at the 4.0+
> trails that everyone seems to think they're capable of doing nowdays.
>
> When the statewide route inventory is complete (within the next
> 18 months - 2 years) the agencies will be posting signs at the
> trailheads of all the "designated trails". They will be posting
> similar to what I recently sent...... Easy, Moderate, Hard,
> Extreme but without the "numbering". The access maps will have
> the "numbering" level criteria listed but the trailheads will
> not. They will be basing their rating criteria on the "1-5"
> rating system.
>
> Sandee
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:05 PM
> > To: 'AZVJC'
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Trail Ratings
> >
> >
> > It would be really nice to be able to add a "Gate Keeper" type
> obstacle to
> > the entrance of every trail... a sort of "you must be this tall
> > to ride this
> > ride..." or rather "your Jeep must be this capable to run this trail..."
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Scott Kruize [mailto:skruize@c...]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 2:55 PM
> > To: 'Sandee McCullen'; 'AZVJC'
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Trail Ratings
> >
> >
> > Sandee,
> >
> > I couldn't agree more. For instance, I was very upset when I found out
> > about the White Line bypass on Lower Terminator. I feel that if you
> > can't make the Whiteline obstacle then you shouldn't be on the trail.
> >
> > Scott K
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>



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Message: 15
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:25:07 -0700
From: "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...>
Subject: RE: Re: Trail Ratings WHY?

Let me clarify.

It doesn't matter what numbers are used. Lets use a "5" scale system since
that seems to be the "standard" What I'm saying is that we need to redefine
the ratings so that the newer extreme trails are covered. The required
equipment is different for these trails between 4.5-Predator and 4.5-Axle
Alley. The idea is to update the ratings to make sure that the trails are
listed with the proper minimum equipment required.

I don't think that incrementing in tenths is the answer. Essentially that
would just be creating a 1 to 50 (0.1 to 5.0) system, you want to talk about
COMPLICATED!

What I'm saying is lets stick with the standard 10 point rating system, that
being a scale up to 5 in .5 increments. (IT IS still 10 different ratings).

- Mike



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Message: 16
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:29:13 -0700
From: "Hackle" <hackle@q...>
Subject: RE: Re: Trail Ratings WHY?

Ok after rethinking this myself it does make more sense to stay within the
present system as our club pages are used to plan trips for a lot of people
that are outside the are. They can at this point relate to a system they are
used to. That being said the trails need to be rerated, and descriptions
rewritten.
We have a good forum for this how about a weekly pole and discussion pick
one trial a week. Just an idea. Jim F.
BTW FredTJ You are the first Eng I have ever heard of that even knew about
the KISS principle. I thought over engineering equaled job security LOL

I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member. "Groucho
Marx"
Member of the original dirty half dozen.
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/index.htm/
http://www.rockrats.org/





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Message: 17
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:28:57 -0700
From: "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...>
Subject: RE: Trail Ratings

What I mean by "Gate Keeper" isn't a person standing there saying you can or
can't go on the trail, but rather just a simple obstacle at the very
beginning designed to present enough of a challenge to keep those that
shouldn't be on the trail off of it.

L. Terminator USED to have one of these -- just two big rocks in the middle
of the trail. If you had trouble getting over those, you had no business on
L. Terminator. Upper Woodpecker has one (sort of) at the very beginning.

- Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Sandee McCullen [mailto:mccullen@c...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:08 PM
To: Chatfield, Mike; 'AZVJC'
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Trail Ratings


Do you honestly think these guys/gals that are entering trails above their
"vehicle" capabilities are going to listen to a "gate keeper" any more than
they "read" the rating criteria?? Right?!!!.......... I don't want to be
the one at the 4.0+ trails that everyone seems to think they're capable of
doing nowdays.

When the statewide route inventory is complete (within the next 18 months -
2 years) the agencies will be posting signs at the trailheads of all the
"designated trails". They will be posting similar to what I recently
sent...... Easy, Moderate, Hard, Extreme but without the "numbering".
The access maps will have the "numbering" level criteria listed but the
trailheads will not. They will be basing their rating criteria on the "1-5"
rating system.

Sandee

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:05 PM
> To: 'AZVJC'
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Trail Ratings
>
>
> It would be really nice to be able to add a "Gate Keeper" type obstacle to
> the entrance of every trail... a sort of "you must be this tall
> to ride this
> ride..." or rather "your Jeep must be this capable to run this trail..."
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Kruize [mailto:skruize@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 2:55 PM
> To: 'Sandee McCullen'; 'AZVJC'
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Trail Ratings
>
>
> Sandee,
>
> I couldn't agree more. For instance, I was very upset when I found out
> about the White Line bypass on Lower Terminator. I feel that if you
> can't make the Whiteline obstacle then you shouldn't be on the trail.
>
> Scott K
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>



__________________________________________________ ______________________
__________________________________________________ ______________________

Message: 18
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:34:14 -0700
From: "Robert Peck" <rlpii@q...>
Subject: Re: Trail Ratings

Or a by-pass ;-)
Bob
74 CJ-5
CANT W8

Scott Kruize wrote:

> Yeah, but there would always be big stack of rocks in front of it. :(
>
> Scott
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:05 PM
> To: 'AZVJC'
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Trail Ratings
>
> It would be really nice to be able to add a "Gate Keeper" type obstacle
> to the entrance of every trail... a sort of "you must be this tall to
> ride this ride..." or rather "your Jeep must be this capable to run this
> trail..."
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Kruize [mailto:skruize@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 2:55 PM
> To: 'Sandee McCullen'; 'AZVJC'
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Trail Ratings
>
> Sandee,
>
> I couldn't agree more. For instance, I was very upset when I found out
> about the White Line bypass on Lower Terminator. I feel that if you
> can't make the Whiteline obstacle then you shouldn't be on the trail.
>
> Scott K
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




__________________________________________________ ______________________
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Message: 19
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:31:24 -0700
From: "Sandee McCullen" <mccullen@c...>
Subject: RE: FREDTJ: STL

State Trust Lands ARE for all intents and purposes private being that EACH
parcel is already deeded to a specific school district and/or prison system
for education.

State Trust Lands are NOT "Traded".............. they are SOLD or leased.
There were no "swaps" involved in the White Tanks area. Catipillar SOLD
their land to a developer. State Trust lands were not involved.

BLM however........... do "swap" lands. That's why I post any number of
"meetings" ya'll need to attend............. BLM have "public meetings"
involving all "swaps"...... most often no one shows. These swaps are NOT
with State Trust Lands. Years ago BLM & STL did some "swaps" and the ASLD
was accused of all sorts of "underhanded" dealings so they can no longer do
anything other than lease or sell by "bidding".

State Trust Lands do NOT belong to the people of Arizona. They belong to a
TRUST. These lands were given to the State when Arizona entered the union,
to hold in Trust for the education system. The Arizona State Land
Department are the appointed "trustees" of the Trusts....... The "PEOPLE OF
ARIZONA" have absolutely nothing to do with the trusts nor do our taxes fund
anything in regards to "trust" lands...........
There are some "State Lands" however but most of these lands are State Parks
with no motorized recreation allowed. These are NOT Trust lands and only
amount to a few hundred acres........... not 9.8 million.

I'm sorry to sound harpy about this issue but there is a huge
miscommunication out there about "what" State Trust Lands are.

Would anyone be interested in attending a meeting having maybe the
Commissioner of the State Land Dept. (trustee of the trusts) talk to
everyone about WHAT State Trust Lands are??? I'm certain we could set it up
to have a Q & A type format. It might answer some
questions.................

Sandee
-----Original Message-----
From: Jake Wagner [mailto:jakewagner@y...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:21 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] FREDTJ: STL


Fred:

What confuses me is how can it be "State Trust Land," but yet it's private
land and land swaps are made with private contactors, I.E. the current
developments in the White Tanks area.

I understand the land is sold off and used to fund schools, but it's
"State Trust Land." Not Jake or Fred's Trust Land, and the money goes to
the State to fund our school system not to our pockets for our own personal
use. I'm usually one to understand things, but this I have never
understood! So Why aren't the properties our homes sit on State Trust Land?
We own the private property?

Jake, very confused


From: "FredTJ" <fredtj@c...>
Subject: Re: STL Permits

STL is different than BLM or FS land. For one, STL is not public land,
it's private property. Also, by law, the State is "required" to make
money for education (and other things) from the land, which is why
permits are issued (for a fee and not free). Additional income comes from
sale of the land also. The money that the State takes in from STL is
suppose (by law) to be more than what's required to maintain it. STL, is
"for profit" private property. I think this is one of the things that
some people keep forgetting about.

Cheers,
Fred

----- Original Message -----
From: Jake Wagner
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:22 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] STL Permits


Sandee and I have exchanged a few e-mails and I figured I'd throw
this out to the club since a few are complaining about the cost of the
permit. A $20 Family Permit breaks down to $0.38 cents a week, and a $15
Individual Permit breaks down to $0.28 Cents a week. If you can't
afford it then you shouldn't be driving a Jeep!

On top of this most of my friends and I throw about $800 to $1,000 a
year at our TJs, $15/20 is a tank of gas people. I highly recommend
that each and everyone in the club has one because I have no sympathy for
someone who goes on a run and gets a minimun of a $500 fine. I myself
was ignorant and did not know that one was needed, but you bet your
butt I! went out and purchased one and everyone of my passengers has one .
All my regular wheeling friends also have them and we encourage all of
you to purchase one.

I don't agree with the permit, but I'd rather pay $15 than $500. I'm
already paying taxes, why should I have to pay for a permit to use the
land? BLM and the Forest Service do not require one and the money to
maintain the roads, etc come out of my paycheck via taxes every week.

See you all on the CK run, can't wait to trail test the body lift and
motor mount lift Scott K, Joey K and I put on my TJ tonight.

Jake






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Message: 20
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:51:39 -0700
From: "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
Subject: RE: WAS Re: United Association...NOW beers on Stu!

Les, Les, Les.....I've been telling you now, for the past 6 months or so, to
stop believing everything that Kruize tells you!


TC!

Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com


-----Original Message-----
From: paparoach85251 [mailto:lespaparoach@m...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:43 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] WAS Re: United Association...NOW beers on Stu!


Stu,
I thought you were buying the drinks for everyone that went on your
6:30 run! That's the reason I signed up for your trip ;)

Les

--- In az_vjc@y..., "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...> wrote:
> Mike....good idea. Count me in!
>
> I'll volunteer to collect any donations for United on the 6:30AM
run.
> Heck....I am going to charge everyone $2 anyways! (that was what
Hackle
> told me to do so we would have enough $$ to get something cold to
drink
> after the run was over!) LOL
>
> Stu
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 11:30 AM
> To: 'az_vjc@y...'
> Subject: [az_vjc] United Association
>
>
> All,
>
> Sandee has informed me that it is possible for the AzVJC to join
United as
> an association. A minimum of $50 is needed for this to happen --
Ideally we
> want to send $100 or more.
>
> With association, we get to send 2 Delegates to United's yearly
meeting
> (next year's meeting is in Flagstaff); so we'd need some
nominations and a
> vote.
>
> If someone would like to volunteer to collect money at Crown King
this
> weekend that would be great (or I can do it if no one volunteers).
Also I'd
> like to have a PayPal account set up so that those not
participating in this
> weekend's events can donate.
>
> This is a voluntary donation! If we receive more than we need,
then we'll
> hold a vote to determine what to do with the extra.
>
> ALSO! We'll be receiving an electronic version of the newsletter,
which I
> will put online for everyone to download -- or I will e-mail it to
those
> interested.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chatfield
> Programmer/Analyst
> Pegasus Solutions
> (602) 861-7686
> mike.chatfield@p...
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





__________________________________________________ ______________________
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Message: 21
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:51:41 -0700
From: "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
Subject: RE: United Association

DOH!

Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Hackle [mailto:hackle@q...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 2:47 PM
To: Stu Olson; Chatfield, Mike; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] United Association


Stu I said $20 dollars not two:) If anyone on the 6:00 run wants to make a
donation I will volunteer to introduce you to Mike Chatfield:) Jim F.

I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member. "Groucho
Marx"
Member of the original dirty half dozen.
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/index.htm/
http://www.rockrats.org/


-----Original Message-----
From: Stu Olson [mailto:solson8@q...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:36 PM
To: Chatfield, Mike; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] United Association


Mike....good idea. Count me in!

I'll volunteer to collect any donations for United on the 6:30AM run.
Heck....I am going to charge everyone $2 anyways! (that was what Hackle
told me to do so we would have enough $$ to get something cold to drink
after the run was over!) LOL

Stu

Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 11:30 AM
To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [az_vjc] United Association


All,

Sandee has informed me that it is possible for the AzVJC to join United as
an association. A minimum of $50 is needed for this to happen -- Ideally we
want to send $100 or more.

With association, we get to send 2 Delegates to United's yearly meeting
(next year's meeting is in Flagstaff); so we'd need some nominations and a
vote.

If someone would like to volunteer to collect money at Crown King this
weekend that would be great (or I can do it if no one volunteers). Also I'd
like to have a PayPal account set up so that those not participating in this
weekend's events can donate.

This is a voluntary donation! If we receive more than we need, then we'll
hold a vote to determine what to do with the extra.

ALSO! We'll be receiving an electronic version of the newsletter, which I
will put online for everyone to download -- or I will e-mail it to those
interested.

Thanks,

Mike Chatfield
Programmer/Analyst
Pegasus Solutions
(602) 861-7686
mike.chatfield@p...


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

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Message: 22
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:54:33 -0700
From: "Hackle" <hackle@q...>
Subject: FW: Crown King Early Run Heads Up



Both Stu and myself will have a quick drivers meeting to go over this
again,
but here goes. Everyone please remember at this point we have over 60 Jeeps
in the first two groups. By the law of averages somebody is going to break
and hold things up. Please stay as mellow as possible. Stu and I have been
talking and pretty much came up with the same idea. I know the usual method
is to stop after and obstacle and go back and shoot pics or spot. To get
this many vehicles through in a timely manor we need to try and keep moving.
Once you reach the top of the obstacle either wait until you see the next
vehicle crest or go back and spot them if they need it. But as soon as they
get to the top you must get in your vehicle and leave. I am not trying to
turn the run into a race but we all want to get there at a decent hour. I
want everyone to have fun and stay safe. This will be a great time to get to
know everyone on the run:) I am sure the c/b will be used a great deal if
you don't have one you might want to look into a quick install. I think you
will find it worth it. Looking forward to leading the parade:) Jim F. aka
Hackle

I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member. "Groucho
Marx"
Member of the original dirty half dozen.
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/index.htm/
http://www.rockrats.org/








__________________________________________________ ______________________
__________________________________________________ ______________________

Message: 23
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:07:37 -0700
From: FredTJ <fredtj@c...>
Subject: Re: FREDTJ: STL

Jake,
When I say "private property", I mean "not public property".. It's
private property belonging to the State of Arizona. Not to me or anyone
else, but to the State ;)
The lot that my house sits on is "private property". It belongs to me ;)
The STL belongs to the State, but unlike my lot, which belongs to me, the
State, by law, has certain things that it MUST do with it, and that is make
money, turn a profit. I haven't read the law, but I don't think it matters
how the money is made from the land. It can be sold, it can be traded, just
as I can sell my land or trade my land. The main difference, I think, is
that I'm not tasked with making money from my lot ;)
All State Trust Land was deeded to the State from the Feds. It's held in
trust (State Trust Land ;) )..
Does that help any, or am I just messing it up more ?
Anyway, the biggest difference between STL and Forest Land or BLM land, is
the STL is private property (property of the State of Arizona), not public
land like BLM and FS land. Big difference.

:)
Fred

----- Original Message -----
From: Jake Wagner
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:21 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] FREDTJ: STL


Fred:

What confuses me is how can it be "State Trust Land," but yet it's private
land and land swaps are made with private contactors, I.E. the current
developments in the White Tanks area.

I understand the land is sold off and used to fund schools, but it's
"State Trust Land." Not Jake or Fred's Trust Land, and the money goes to
the State to fund our school system not to our pockets for our own personal
use. I'm usually one to understand things, but this I have never
understood! So Why aren't the properties our homes sit on State Trust Land?
We own the private property?

Jake, very confused


From: "FredTJ" <fredtj@c...>
Subject: Re: STL Permits

STL is different than BLM or FS land. For one, STL is not public land,
it's private property. Also, by law, the State is "required" to make
money for education (and other things) from the land, which is why
permits are issued (for a fee and not free). Additional income comes from
sale of the land also. The money that the State takes in from STL is
suppose (by law) to be more than what's required to maintain it. STL, is
"for profit" private property. I think this is one of the things that
some people keep forgetting about.

Cheers,
Fred

----- Original Message -----
From: Jake Wagner
To: HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




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Message: 24
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:14:40 -0700
From: FredTJ <fredtj@c...>
Subject: Re: Re: Trail Ratings WHY?

I'm the odd ball engineer ( in many different ways ;) ). Sometimes I spend
much of day (at work), listening to some of the idiots that I work with, try
to over engineer everything that they see. Me, I like to find the $#%#$*(*%
problem, at the source, and fix it there, instead of putting bandaids on it
upstream. Too many people never see the original "problem". This is slightly
how I see this whole trail ratings discussion. From a quick glance, it seems
to me that the "problem" may simply be that some/all/a lot (whatever) of the
trails are classified wrongly. We're may be trying to fix that problem by
redoing the classification system itself instead of fixing the trail rating
on the web site ;)


:)
Fred


----- Original Message -----
From: "Hackle" <hackle@q...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:29 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Trail Ratings WHY?


> Ok after rethinking this myself it does make more sense to stay within the
> present system as our club pages are used to plan trips for a lot of
people
> that are outside the are. They can at this point relate to a system they
are
> used to. That being said the trails need to be rerated, and descriptions
> rewritten.
> We have a good forum for this how about a weekly pole and discussion pick
> one trial a week. Just an idea. Jim F.
> BTW FredTJ You are the first Eng I have ever heard of that even knew about
> the KISS principle. I thought over engineering equaled job security LOL
>
> I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member. "Groucho
> Marx"
> Member of the original dirty half dozen.
> http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/index.htm/
> http://www.rockrats.org/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>



__________________________________________________ ______________________
__________________________________________________ ______________________

Message: 25
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:11:16 -0700
From: "The Acuna Family" <mkacuna@c...>
Subject: Re: Best winch prices

You can get a Mile Marker E8000 for $409 @
http://www.thinkoffroad.com/thinkshop2/asp/product.asp?product=862&cat=61&ph
=&keywords=&recor=&SearchFor=&PT_ID= Rosser Jeep.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Siade, Randy" <randy.siade@u...>
To: "'Rick Norman'" <4x4xfun1@c...>; "AZ_VJC" <AZ_VJC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 6:59 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Best winch prices


> You can get a Ramsey 8000 for under $500.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rick Norman [mailto:4x4xfun1@c...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 5:07 PM
> > To: AZ_VJC
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Best winch prices
> >
> > It looks like I will be putting a winch on the front of the XJ (after
John
> > K makes me a bumper). I like either the Warn 8000 or 9000. Does anyone
in
> > town offer prices comparable to what I can find online?? I really would
> > like to support local business if possible.
> >
> > Any info will be much appreciated!
> >
> > Rick
> > XTRM XJ
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>



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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


63342 From: bermboy2000 <bermboy@h...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 5:19pm
Subject: Re: I need one!


1616 W. Adams

Scott Maiden

--- In az_vjc@y..., "Scott Kruize" <skruize@c...> wrote:
> You can always buy them at the State Land office downtown. Don't
know
> the address but it shouldn't be too hard to look up.
>
> Scott K
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: swaders7 [mailto:swaders7@y...]
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 4:35 PM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] I need one!
>
>
> Anyone know where a forgetful person can get a permit on such short
> notice? I was too worried about my Jeep being in condition to go
on
> the run that I forgot I needed the permit. Any info would be
great.
> Thanks.
>
> ~Wade
> '97 TJ
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Kyle Hagan" <Kyle@s...> wrote:
> > at 4:20pm only one left.
> >
> > Kyle
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <SIMONLUKER@A...>
> > To: <az_vjc@y...>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 1:49 PM
> > Subject: [az_vjc] 4 Wheelers has 10 permits left
> >
> >
> > > only 10 left 2:00pm
> > > Simon
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


63343 From: Kyle Hagan <Kyle@s...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 5:20pm
Subject: Can someone help?


I need to replace two lugs on my rear passengerside of my 99tj. How hard is it? Can some one help me do it? I dont know alot ,YET, about auto maint. but Im learning. I need to get them fixed before Saturday. If I buy the lugs can some one help me get them in?

Kyle


63344 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 5:24pm
Subject: [FS] Tuffy Center Console for TJ


Price: $110 obo

Contact: bmckinley@cox.net

I have a black Tuffy security center console that fits a Jeep TJ. It is used but in good condition. It is the model that has the compartment for a cb or head unit or whatever fits.

Bryant McKinley


63345 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 5:28pm
Subject: [FS] Bestop package, bikini, windjammer, and toneau cover


Price: $200 obo

Contact: bmckinley@cox.net, (602) 882-2150

I have a used bikini top, windjammer, and tonneau cover for a Jeep TJ. They came with the Jeep since they were used when the hard top was off, however I have now purchased a new soft top so I dont need them anymore. I have never used them but they look in great condition.

Bryant McKinley


63346 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 5:30pm
Subject: Re: Can someone help?


If you can turn a ratchet and use a hammer you can so it. You'll need to jack and remove the wheel. Do not set the e-brake and keep Jeep in neutral, but be certain that the Jeep is properly supported and chocked. Remove the brake drum. You'll see the axle flange (where the lugs are). This flange will have a large access hole. rotate the axle until it lines up with one of the retaining plate bolts. Remove all the bolts (by rotating the axle and the access hole). Remove the axle. Support the axle in such a way that you don't damage the bearing seal. Pound out the offending lugs. Pound in the new ones.

Put it all back together and you're set.

Doug

----- Original Message -----
From: Kyle Hagan
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 5:20 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Can someone help?


I need to replace two lugs on my rear passengerside of my 99tj. How hard is it? Can some one help me do it? I dont know alot ,YET, about auto maint. but Im learning. I need to get them fixed before Saturday. If I buy the lugs can some one help me get them in?

Kyle

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



63347 From: Hackle <hackle@q...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 5:34pm
Subject: West side lunch????


I have tomorrow off anyone meeting on the good side of town?? Jim F.

I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member. "Groucho
Marx"
Member of the original dirty half dozen.
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/index.htm/
http://www.rockrats.org/


63348 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 5:43pm
Subject: Fw: Can someone help?


----- Original Message -----
From: "DougB" <azjeep@c...>
To: "trmn8rjn98" <trmn8rjn98@a...>
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: Can someone help?


> Oops. Your right. A D35c is another matter.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "trmn8rjn98" <trmn8rjn98@a...>
> To: "DougB" <azjeep@c...>
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 5:34 PM
> Subject: Re: Can someone help?
>
>
> > That is assuming he has a D44. If a 35 it would be a c-clip. It can
> > also be done while still in the ehicle just have to use some spacers,
> > oil & a disposeable lug nut. Just pop out the bad ones & use the
> > lugnut with spacer & oil to pull the new one in to place.
> > John
> > Would invite you over but am recovering from surgery & can't do any
> > work.
> >
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "DougB" <azjeep@c...> wrote:
> > > If you can turn a ratchet and use a hammer you can so it. You'll
> > need to jack and remove the wheel. Do not set the e-brake and keep
> > Jeep in neutral, but be certain that the Jeep is properly supported
> > and chocked. Remove the brake drum. You'll see the axle flange (where
> > the lugs are). This flange will have a large access hole. rotate the
> > axle until it lines up with one of the retaining plate bolts. Remove
> > all the bolts (by rotating the axle and the access hole). Remove the
> > axle. Support the axle in such a way that you don't damage the
> > bearing seal. Pound out the offending lugs. Pound in the new ones.
> > >
> > > Put it all back together and you're set.
> > >
> > > Doug
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Kyle Hagan
> > > To: az_vjc@y...
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 5:20 PM
> > > Subject: [az_vjc] Can someone help?
> > >
> > >
> > > I need to replace two lugs on my rear passengerside of my 99tj.
> > How hard is it? Can some one help me do it? I dont know alot ,YET,
> > about auto maint. but Im learning. I need to get them fixed before
> > Saturday. If I buy the lugs can some one help me get them in?
> > >
> > > Kyle
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service.
> >
> >
>


63349 From: Scott Bruns <scottbruns@c...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 5:48pm
Subject: Re: Re: Trail Ratings WHY?


I agree with you Mike. 3.5-, 4.5+. Who thinks this makes sense.

Kind of reminds me of the Minnesotan ways of speaking. You would think there
would be 3 ratings,

Bad
Ok
Good

But the Minnesotan in me wants to say:

Bad
Not Good
Ok
Not Bad
Good

We can apply this to the current rating system.

3.0
3.5-+
3.5
3.5+-
4.0

That makes it a whole lot easier to understand! <grin>


Or, we could just go from 0 to 10, or 11 or 12. You need some way of rating
a trail with a 50ft waterfall (winch required). Maybe a 13?

Scott Bruns


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:00 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Trail Ratings WHY?


> Would someone please explain to me how a 0 to 10 system, incremented by
> whole numbers is MORE complicated than a 0 to 5 system incrementing by
HALF
> numbers? There is still TEN different ratings (not counting zero) it
doesn't
> matter to me if we call it 4.5 or 9 -- it is still the same rating. If a 5
> scale rating system is recognized more than a 10 scale, then so be it, but
> we still need to update the descriptions.
>
> Really, the numbers don't mean too much.
> 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
> OR
> 0.0, 0.5, 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, 2.5, 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, 5.0
>
> What needs to change is the Rating Descriptions, Required Equipment and
> Recommended Equipment. My suggestion is to rewrite the descriptions and
> then reclassify the trails in accordance with those revised descriptions.
It
> is obvious that many trails need to be reclassified, and I think that we
> have a unique opportunity to redefine the trail ratings.
>
> Take a look at the second draft:
>
> http://www.azvjc.org/trails/altratings.asp
>
> Remember the reasoning behind this is to educate new Wheelers. The
obscure
> ratings we currently use don't seem to differ greatly from 3.5 to 4.0 to
4.5
> While the trails represented by these ratings do (FR42, L. Terminator,
Axle
> Alley). With the rating system I've proposed, there is a bigger
difference
> between FR42 and L. Terminator (2.0 vs 3.0) and L. Terminator to Axle
Alley
> (3.0 vs 4.5)
>
> Also I'm not trying to permanently rate these trails, just trying to offer
> MY idea of where they'd fit in. Some of the more extreme wheelers may want
> to move some of the trails I've never done before from one rating into
> another as well.
>
> - Mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


63350 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 5:48pm
Subject: [FS] 4 15-8 AR polished alum rims


Price: $175 obo

Contact: Andrew McLaughlin 480 946-4402 jpcrawleram@aol.com

Veryt sharp alum wheels. Very light. Took them off a YJ. Not sure the backspacing. They have paintable triangles and beads on the outer lip. Look similar to the AR 15's but with triangles. Will take an offer.

Andrew McLaughlin


63351 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 6:08pm
Subject: RE: West side lunch????


Pick the place
Joey K
93YJ

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hackle [mailto:hackle@q...]
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 5:34 PM
> To: Az_Vjc
> Subject: [az_vjc] West side lunch????
>
>
> I have tomorrow off anyone meeting on the good side of
> town?? Jim F.
>
> I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a
> member. "Groucho Marx" Member of the original dirty half
> dozen. http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/index.htm/
> http://www.rockrats.org/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


63352 From: Hackle <hackle@q...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 6:11pm
Subject: RE: West side lunch????


Hell I am single lets go to Hooters:) On Bell Hackle

I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member. "Groucho
Marx"
Member of the original dirty half dozen.
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/index.htm/
http://www.rockrats.org/


-----Original Message-----
From: DesertJeep [mailto:joey@d...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 6:08 PM
To: 'Hackle'; 'Az_Vjc'
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] West side lunch????


Pick the place
Joey K
93YJ

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hackle [mailto:hackle@q...]
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 5:34 PM
> To: Az_Vjc
> Subject: [az_vjc] West side lunch????
>
>
> I have tomorrow off anyone meeting on the good side of
> town?? Jim F.
>
> I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a
> member. "Groucho Marx" Member of the original dirty half
> dozen. http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/index.htm/
> http://www.rockrats.org/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


63353 From: rrichards13 <rrichards13@y...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 7:15pm
Subject: Re: West side lunch????


How cute.....I am married and still go there.


63354 From: Scott Kruize <skruize@c...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 7:32pm
Subject: RE: Re: West side lunch????


Hooters has horrible food. I can't understand what the fuss about the
place is. If people want to look at women there are a lot of better
choices out there.

I recommend you try Santisi's Brothers. It is right next door to the
discount theater. They have some excellent pizza and wings, the best
ribs in town, and they have a tendency to hire a lot really cute young
ladies. I've been going there since they opened the bar. I can't say I
spend as much time there since I got married but the wife and I still go
in occasionally for the excellent food.

Scott K


-----Original Message-----
From: rrichards13 [mailto:rrichards13@y...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 7:16 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: West side lunch????


How cute.....I am married and still go there.




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


63355 From: linda luik <minihummer@w...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 7:57pm
Subject: Re: Re: Trail Ratings WHY?


The Moab trail rating system used stock (or near stock) SWB 4x4s, most
likely CJs, maybe MBs. If you re-ran the Arizona trails in a similarly
setup vehicle, you would see that the 1-5 rating system is pretty
consistent. Remember this trail rating system was created 20-30 years
ago when 4-wheelers didn't even think to take air out of the tires to
improve traction. If you run these same trails with a well-equipped 4x4
(lockers, big tires, experienced driver) even the toughest trails seem
easy since the challenge has been taken out of it.

The best thing to do is to re-rate the trails every once in a while.

I would propose that any trails that are maintained by clubs, or by
groups of people who just do it because they want to, should make the
decision on the specific trail rating. If the Arizona Lo-Rangers want to
declare Mud Springs (the club's Adopt-A-Trail) a 3.5, then the trail is
a 3.5.

Linda

DougB wrote:
>
> Because you have 5 basic categories, and the ".5", "+", and "-" are
> indicators for a single category.
>
> 10 individual categories strikes me as over kill, and I doubt the nuances
> between them would be remembered or used in any consistent way.
>
> Anyway, that's how I look at it.
>
> Doug
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...>
> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:00 PM
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Trail Ratings WHY?
>
> > Would someone please explain to me how a 0 to 10 system, incremented by
> > whole numbers is MORE complicated than a 0 to 5 system incrementing by
> HALF
> > numbers? There is still TEN different ratings (not counting zero) it
> doesn't
> > matter to me if we call it 4.5 or 9 -- it is still the same rating. If a 5
> > scale rating system is recognized more than a 10 scale, then so be it, but
> > we still need to update the descriptions.
> >
> > Really, the numbers don't mean too much.
> > 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
> > OR
> > 0.0, 0.5, 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, 2.5, 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, 5.0
> >
> > What needs to change is the Rating Descriptions, Required Equipment and
> > Recommended Equipment. My suggestion is to rewrite the descriptions and
> > then reclassify the trails in accordance with those revised descriptions.
> It
> > is obvious that many trails need to be reclassified, and I think that we
> > have a unique opportunity to redefine the trail ratings.
> >
> > Take a look at the second draft:
> >
> > http://www.azvjc.org/trails/altratings.asp
> >
> > Remember the reasoning behind this is to educate new Wheelers. The
> obscure
> > ratings we currently use don't seem to differ greatly from 3.5 to 4.0 to
> 4.5
> > While the trails represented by these ratings do (FR42, L. Terminator,
> Axle
> > Alley). With the rating system I've proposed, there is a bigger
> difference
> > between FR42 and L. Terminator (2.0 vs 3.0) and L. Terminator to Axle
> Alley
> > (3.0 vs 4.5)
> >
> > Also I'm not trying to permanently rate these trails, just trying to offer
> > MY idea of where they'd fit in. Some of the more extreme wheelers may want
> > to move some of the trails I've never done before from one rating into
> > another as well.
> >
> > - Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


63356 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 8:02pm
Subject: What happened to LF?


What ever happened to Larry Farquar?
Is he a "snow bird"?

--James


63357 From: danno4x4 <danno4x4@y...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 8:17pm
Subject: Hello, New to Arizona


Hello, Just moved from Texas to Arizona and I would like to get to
know some folks to go wheelin with out here. I live in Scottsdale,
Near 101 and Frank lloyd wright. Are there any regular social
gatherings where I could come awn out and meet some of you folks?

Dan Tracy


63358 From: Rick Norman <4x4xfun1@c...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 8:16pm
Subject: RE: I need one!


The Arizona State Land Department is located at 1616 W. Adams I went their
Wed on my lunch hour 10 min and I was out of there. Vanda (ricks wife)
their phone number is 602-542-4631
open from 8-4:30 with no lunch break

-----Original Message-----
From: swaders7 [mailto:swaders7@y...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 4:35 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] I need one!


Anyone know where a forgetful person can get a permit on such short
notice? I was too worried about my Jeep being in condition to go on
the run that I forgot I needed the permit. Any info would be great.
Thanks.

~Wade
'97 TJ


--- In az_vjc@y..., "Kyle Hagan" <Kyle@s...> wrote:
> at 4:20pm only one left.
>
> Kyle
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <SIMONLUKER@A...>
> To: <az_vjc@y...>
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 1:49 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] 4 Wheelers has 10 permits left
>
>
> > only 10 left 2:00pm
> > Simon
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


63359 From: Steve Meyer <steve.j.meyer@c...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 8:30pm
Subject: [OT] Enjoy a HomeStar...on me!


Enjoy! I did.... www.homestarrunner.com

Enjoy an email to Strong Bad during breaks at work...great laugh therapy!

--Steve


63360 From: K7ANT <k7ant@t...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 8:24pm
Subject: Re: [FS] Bearing Hub Assemblies for TJ, XJ, or late YJ


Doug,
Did you find your nuts?? Jam nuts that is.
Bill W
"Antman"
K7ANT
Up on the Mogollon Rim in God and Four Wheelers' Country.

(In Heber/Overgaard with the Crispy Critters.
----- Original Message -----
From: DougB
To: DesertJeep ; 'AzVJC'
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] [FS] Bearing Hub Assemblies for TJ, XJ, or late YJ


Yeah...well...you know....Baby needs a new pair o shoes...and some axles.

Doug

----- Original Message -----
From: DesertJeep
To: azjeep@cox.net ; 'AzVJC'
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 1:19 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] [FS] Bearing Hub Assemblies for TJ, XJ, or late YJ


Geezz Doug... you selling your Jeep piece by piece or what!? :)

Must be doing some major mods.

Joey K
93YJ

----Original Message-----
From: AzVJC Website [mailto:azjeep@cox.net]
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 8:08 PM
To: AzVJC
Subject: [az_vjc] [FS] Bearing Hub Assemblies for TJ, XJ, or late YJ


Price: $120 each or $200/pair

Contact: azjeep@cox.net

New, never used OEM Bearing Hubs for D30 TJ, XJ's ot late YJ's.

These are new, orininal equipment. After market ones go for $140 each. New OEM's go for around $200 each.

Doug Ballard


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



63361 From: Steve Meyer <steve.j.meyer@c...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 8:39pm
Subject: [FS] 1999 Jayco Tent Trailer


Guys (and Gals),

I have a fully self contained tent trailer for sale in the "non-jeep" section of the classifieds if you are interested. I never saw the ad come through on the list so I thought I would send it myself. Pics included in the ad.

Thanks,
Steve