blooddrive
01-05-2004, 10:02 PM
63262-63286
63262 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 7:56am
Subject: [FS] Lock-Right Locker for Dana 35 with ABS $150 Bucks OBO!
Price: $150.00 OBO
Contact: Luis Rodriguez(602)410-3401 "Cell Phone"
This is a Lock-right Locker P/N: T2311S2 with ABS Brackes. It fits any YJ with ABS Brakes or any TJ.
Luis Rodriguez
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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63263 From: FredTJ <fredtj@c...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 8:36am
Subject: Re: STL Permits
STL is different than BLM or FS land. For one, STL is not public land, it's private property. Also, by law, the State is "required" to make money for education (and other things) from the land, which is why permits are issued (for a fee and not free). Additional income comes from sale of the land also. The money that the State takes in from STL is suppose (by law) to be more than what's required to maintain it. STL, is "for profit" private property. I think this is one of the things that some people keep forgetting about.
Cheers,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: Jake Wagner
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:22 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] STL Permits
Sandee and I have exchanged a few e-mails and I figured I'd throw this out to the club since a few are complaining about the cost of the permit. A $20 Family Permit breaks down to $0.38 cents a week, and a $15 Individual Permit breaks down to $0.28 Cents a week. If you can't afford it then you shouldn't be driving a Jeep!
On top of this most of my friends and I throw about $800 to $1,000 a year at our TJs, $15/20 is a tank of gas people. I highly recommend that each and everyone in the club has one because I have no sympathy for someone who goes on a run and gets a minimun of a $500 fine. I myself was ignorant and did not know that one was needed, but you bet your butt I went out and purchased one and everyone of my passengers has one . All my regular wheeling friends also have them and we encourage all of you to purchase one.
I don't agree with the permit, but I'd rather pay $15 than $500. I'm already paying taxes, why should I have to pay for a permit to use the land? BLM and the Forest Service do not require one and the money to maintain the roads, etc come out of my paycheck via taxes every week.
See you all on the CK run, can't wait to trail test the body lift and motor mount lift Scott K, Joey K and I put on my TJ tonight.
Jake
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63264 From: jaylalib <jaylalib1@c...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 8:41am
Subject: Thanks to Toys By Troy
Just wanted to say thanks to Troy, he and his guys did a great job
fixing my pesky SYE leak. After tearing it apart twice. I couldn't
bring myself to do it again!
Great price too!
Thanks Troy
Jason LaLiberty
63265 From: Jonathan Moore <jm9n@u...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 9:00am
Subject: Re: STL Permits
You might want to read the latest issue of United Voice put out by U4WDA. If you are a member, you receive it. If not go to http://www.ufwda.org/2K/ then on the right column go to Check here for the Latest Legislative related Land Use News courtesy Carla Boucher
and read the article about what is in our future.
Not trying to stir things up but it gives you the ability to have a say in things.
Jonathan
At 08:36 AM 8/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
STL is different than BLM or FS land. For one, STL is not public land, it's private property. Also, by law, the State is "required" to make money for education (and other things) from the land, which is why permits are issued (for a fee and not free). Additional income comes from sale of the land also. The money that the State takes in from STL is suppose (by law) to be more than what's required to maintain it. STL, is "for profit" private property. I think this is one of the things that some people keep forgetting about.
Cheers,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: Jake Wagner
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:22 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] STL Permits
Sandee and I have exchanged a few e-mails and I figured I'd throw this out to the club since a few are complaining about the cost of the permit. A $20 Family Permit breaks down to $0.38 cents a week, and a $15 Individual Permit breaks down to $0.28 Cents a week. If you can't afford it then you shouldn't be driving a Jeep!
On top of this most of my friends and I throw about $800 to $1,000 a year at our TJs, $15/20 is a tank of gas people. I highly recommend that each and everyone in the club has one because I have no sympathy for someone who goes on a run and gets a minimun of a $500 fine. I myself was ignorant and did not know that one was needed, but you bet your butt I went out and purchased one and everyone of my passengers has one . All my regular wheeling friends also have them and we encourage all of you to purchase one.
I don't agree with the permit, but I'd rather pay $15 than $500. I'm already paying taxes, why should I have to pay for a permit to use the land? BLM and the Forest Service do not require one and the money to maintain the roads, etc come out of my paycheck via taxes every week.
See you all on the CK run, can't wait to trail test the body lift and motor mount lift Scott K, Joey K and I put on my TJ tonight.
Jake
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63266 From: intertwingled <intertwingled@q...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 9:36am
Subject: fuel tank problems solved, and, a question
Dear List:
Wanted to thank everyone for their help with
my 94 YJ fuel tank problems. I got rid of the
tank baffle and the fuel pressurization problem
went away. Of course, when I swing around corners
now my fuel gauge dips wildly. =)
I'd like to install a fuel pressure gauge inside
the passenger compartment but I understand that
a diaphragm is needed so that there is no fuel
inside of a line that actually leads to the fuel
pressure gauge. Has anyone here installed a gauge
like that? Another thought is to install the
gauge in a protective cowl in front of
the windshield. Thoughts? Comments? Criticisms?
Also, I am trying to find the exact name and
address of the 4wd supply store that is "on
Washington Street". That's how I've heard it,
"you know, that 4wd store on Washington Street."
I hear good things about this store and I want
to stop by there today to price some roll cage
kits and other stuff.
Thanks,
Tony
--
even the safest course is fraught with peril
63267 From: RAM <ramaz@c...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 9:20am
Subject: RE: fuel tank problems solved, and, a question
Hi Tony
Here you go...
4 Wheelers Supply
3530 E. Washington
Phoenix, AZ 85034
(602) 273-7195
RAM
Randall A. Mutter 95XJ, 76 CJ-7
ramaz@c...
Thank goodness there are no 12 step programs for Jeeping...
-----Original Message-----
From: intertwingled [mailto:intertwingled@q...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 9:36 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] fuel tank problems solved, and, a question
Dear List:
Wanted to thank everyone for their help with
my 94 YJ fuel tank problems. I got rid of the
tank baffle and the fuel pressurization problem
went away. Of course, when I swing around corners
now my fuel gauge dips wildly. =)
I'd like to install a fuel pressure gauge inside
the passenger compartment but I understand that
a diaphragm is needed so that there is no fuel
inside of a line that actually leads to the fuel
pressure gauge. Has anyone here installed a gauge
like that? Another thought is to install the
gauge in a protective cowl in front of
the windshield. Thoughts? Comments? Criticisms?
Also, I am trying to find the exact name and
address of the 4wd supply store that is "on
Washington Street". That's how I've heard it,
"you know, that 4wd store on Washington Street."
I hear good things about this store and I want
to stop by there today to price some roll cage
kits and other stuff.
Thanks,
Tony
--
even the safest course is fraught with peril
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
63268 From: Chatfield, Mike <Mike@A...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 9:32am
Subject: RE: Website Changes: Trail Ratings
Like I said the proposed system is a draft. Just a note, however, I never intended the 1 to 10 scale to be broke down into tenths (such as 5.6, 6.3, 2.1, etc) or even halves (4.5, 5.5, 6.5, etc..) I did 1 to 10 to not confuse between the two systems. I don't think it really matters if we call it 1.0, 2.5, 3.0, & 4.5 or 2, 5, 6, & 9 (respectively) Also following the rules of KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) would indicated that a 1 to 10 system with increments of 1 would be easier to follow than 1 to 5 scale with increments of .5.
However, I've been informed (this morning) that 1 to 5 systems are more and more becoming the standard.
How about this for a better 5 scale:
0 2WD: A class zero trail is any road on which the average family car can be driven. This includes all Freeways, Highways, Byways, County Roads, Grated Dirt Roads, Semi-Annually Maintained Roads, etc...
0.5 2WD/Easy 4WD: A Class point Five trail requires the additional ground clearance offered by 2WD and 4WD Sport Utility Vehicles (SUV). These trails feature obstacles that are easy to navigate. In optimum weather conditions, these trails may not require the continual use of four-wheel drive (4WD). Vehicles equipped with a rear locker or limited slip will likely not need 4WD even under adverse conditions.
1.0 Entry Level 4WD: A Class One trail requires 4WD, however, a full locker under optimal weather conditions may prevent the need (in some vehicles) for 4WD. Low range may be necessary and off-road (aggressive tread) tires are recommended. Skid plates to protect sensitive items (i.e. Engine and Transmission Oil pans, Transfer Cases, Rocker Panels, etc..) are recommended; highly recommended if vehicle is not lifted (i.e. stock suspension). These trails feature a wide variety of challenges: Potholes, minor washouts, soccer ball size rocks, and mud holes, etc.
1.5 Moderate 4WD: A Class one point five trail requires Low Range 4WD. Although passable by a stock 4WD vehicle, a Limited Slip differential (Front or Rear) and lift is highly recommended, if not lifted, then skid plates are required to prevent damage to sensitive items. Aggressive off-road tires and lower air pressure is recommended. These trails feature a variety of more difficult challenges: loose rocks, large potholes, steep inclines, larger rocks,etc. Moderate experience and driving skill advised. Likely paint damage, possible rocker-panel damage.
2.0 Challenging 4WD: A Class two trail requires Low Range 4WD, off-road tires, lift, at least one traction device, (lockers or LSD with increased articulation), and skid plates are required. At least one full locker, and larger tires are highly recommended. These trails require above average Off-Road driving skills. High-Lift jacks and winches may also be helpful. There will likely be paint damage and possible vehicle body and/or mechanical damage. These trails feature loose steep hill climbs, 24" ledges and rocks. Rollovers, while not common are possible.
2.5 Difficult 4WD/Easy Rock Crawling: A Class two point five trail is an entry level Rock Crawling trail. Traction Devices (Lockers or Limited Slip) are required in both differentials. 31" Tires, Skid Plates and Lift are required. Lower gears, 32"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, etc are highly recommended. These trails traverse very rugged terrain featuring 30" ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers, while not common are possible; correct tire placement becomes more important. Winches may also be helpful.
3.0 Mild Rock Crawling: A Class three trail is a Mild Rock Crawling trail. Traction Devices (Lockers or Limited Slip) are required in both differentials, at least one full Locker. 32" Tires, Skid Plates and Lift are required. Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components, 33"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, etc are highly recommended. These trails traverse very rugged terrain featuring 36" ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers, while not common become increasingly possible. Correct tire placement becomes increasingly important to avoid rollovers, mechanical damage and body damage. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts. Winches may also be helpful.
3.5 Moderate Rock Crawling: A Class three point five trail is a Moderate Rock Crawling trail. Full Lockers are required in both differentials. 33" Tires, Skid Plates, Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components and Lift are required. 35"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, and Winches are highly recommended. These trails traverse very rugged terrain featuring 42" ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers are more likely, especially when pushing a "bad line". Correct tire placement becomes critical in avoiding rollovers, mechanical damage and body damage. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts.
4.0 Difficult Rock Crawling: A Class four trail is a Difficult Rock Crawling trail. Full Lockers are required in both differentials. 35" Tires, Skid Plates, Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components, Winches and Lift are required. 37"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, and on board welder are highly recommended. These trails traverse extremely rugged terrain featuring 48" ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers are more common. Use of a Winch and Correct tire placement becomes critical in avoiding rollovers, mechanical damage and body damage. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts.
4.5 Extreme Rock Crawling: Class four point five trails are for the Extreme Rock Crawler in a Highly Modified vehicle only. Full Lockers are required in both differentials. 37" Tires, Skid Plates, Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components, Winches and Lift are required. 38"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, and on board welder are highly recommended. These trails traverse extremely rugged terrain featuring Jeep size ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers are increasingly common. Use of a Winch and Correct tire placement becomes critical in avoiding rollovers, mechanical damage and body damage. Paint damage is virtually guaranteed, body and/or mechanical damage is very likely. Certain obstacles may not be passable without the use of a winch. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts.
5 Impassable trail: Class five trails are impassable, even the Extreme Rock Crawler in a Highly Modified vehicle will require the use of a winch. Full Lockers are required in both differentials. 37" Tires, Skid Plates, Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components, Winches and Lift are required. 38"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, and on board welder are highly recommended. These trails traverse impassable terrain featuring house size ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers are virtually guaranteed. Use of a Winch and Correct tire placement becomes critical in completing the obstacle. Paint damage is virtually guaranteed, body and/or mechanical damage is extremely likely. Certain obstacles will require the use of a winch. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts.
However, this again differs from the ASA4WDC scale as it completely revamps the entire numbering system. A current 4.0 trail would become 3.0. Something like Predator (currently 4.5) would be considered 3.5, while Annihilator (also currently 4.5) would still be 4.5.
Or perhaps we should make things more complex and take the above numbers 2.5, 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5 & 5 and make them 3.75, 4.0, 4.25, 4.5, 4.75 & 5 (respectively) on the ASA4WDC scale. Either way, something needs to be done, because the current system does have a break down when it comes to trails rated above 4.0. For L. Woodpecker, Predator, Annihilator, Axle Alley, H2H, Armageddon, and Anaconda are all rated 4.5, yet the difficulty on these trails varies a great amount. L. Woodpecker and Predator I can do; while Annihilator and Axle Alley are two trails I don't feel my rig is capable of. But their all rated 4.5.
The + and -'s indicate only the possibilities of options. A + indicates that there are OPTIONAL obstacles rated higher than the "trail" rating. For instance Raw Deal is a 3.5+ There are OPTIONS on Raw Deal that could possibly take you into 4.5 territory. Minuses indicate that most of the trail is rated lower than its given rating, but it is rated at its highest NON-OPTIONAL obstacle. For instance before the ledge was removed on Crown King, it could be considered a 3.0-, Yet it also had optional sections that would give it a + rating. Perhaps it's rating should have been 3.0+/-?
Anyway that's my take on it. More discussion is needed before a "Final" rating system can be established. By discussion I mean talking about what the ratings SHOULD be, not what they SHOULDN'T be or how one person's idea sux, and that person retorts and this thread turns (in typical AzVJC fashion) to another bickering match. :)
Talk about it submit your ideas, comments and suggestions. Discuss the text of each description, what each "number" should represent, etc...
Thanks,
- Mike
63269 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 9:34am
Subject: [FS] C4x4 Rock Rails 4 Sale
Price: $180.00
Contact: Rick Lovaas
Selling my rails, they don't fit with Bushwackers! I also have a custom roof rack if interested. Please email me if interested: lovaasr@hotmail.com
Rick Lovaas
63270 From: Gary_Pugsley <gary_pugsley@h...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 9:42am
Subject: Four Wheeler's Supply has permits
FYI, I just called Four Wheeler's Supply and they said that the state
was there dropping off permits, so they should have them in stock now.
Pugs
63271 From: Jim Hughes <jhughes@h...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 9:52am
Subject: Re: fuel tank problems solved, and, a question
Four Wheeler's Supply
>>> "intertwingled" <intertwingled@q...> 08/15/02 09:36AM >>>
Dear List:
Wanted to thank everyone for their help with
my 94 YJ fuel tank problems. I got rid of the
tank baffle and the fuel pressurization problem
went away. Of course, when I swing around corners
now my fuel gauge dips wildly. =)
I'd like to install a fuel pressure gauge inside
the passenger compartment but I understand that
a diaphragm is needed so that there is no fuel
inside of a line that actually leads to the fuel
pressure gauge. Has anyone here installed a gauge
like that? Another thought is to install the
gauge in a protective cowl in front of
the windshield. Thoughts? Comments? Criticisms?
Also, I am trying to find the exact name and
address of the 4wd supply store that is "on
Washington Street". That's how I've heard it,
"you know, that 4wd store on Washington Street."
I hear good things about this store and I want
to stop by there today to price some roll cage
kits and other stuff.
Thanks,
Tony
--
even the safest course is fraught with peril
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
63272 From: Daver <daver@c...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 10:23am
Subject: Re: fuel tank problems solved, and, a question
4 Wheelers Supply
3530 E. Washington Phoenix
AZ 85034
(602) 273-7195
http://www.4wheelers.com/
At 09:36 AM 8/15/2002 -0700, intertwingled wrote:
>Also, I am trying to find the exact name and
>address of the 4wd supply store that is "on
>Washington Street". That's how I've heard it,
>"you know, that 4wd store on Washington Street."
>I hear good things about this store and I want
>to stop by there today to price some roll cage
>kits and other stuff.
63273 From: James Smith <jeepinsmitty@y...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 10:26am
Subject: RE: Kids on the CK run on Saturday
My son 11 is coming too. He came last year and loves to jeep. Kids make great slug bug and cattle guard game companions.
Smitty
DesertJeep wrote:
Kyle,
My son will be 6 Sunday and he's nothing like me. So your twins will be
safe on the Turkey Creek Run. ;)
Joey K
93YJ
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kyle Hagan [mailto:Kyle@spiderfirewall.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 5:07 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Kids on the CK run on Saturday
>
>
> What groups is everyone taking that are bringing the kids. I
> might be bringing my Twin Girls (7yrs) and It might be good
> to go with groups that have kids also. They have been with me
> before on trips in florida and they love it.
>
> Kyle
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rick Norman" <4x4xfun1@cox.net>
> To: "zj_lopez" ;
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 4:59 PM
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Kids on the CK run on Saturday
>
>
> > We will be bringing Alyssa(9), Anah(9) and Shawna(3). They
> should have
> lots
> > of fun with the other kids.
> >
> > Rick
> > XTRM XJ
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: zj_lopez [mailto:off-road@cox.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 2:48 PM
> > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Kids on the CK run on Saturday
> >
> >
> > Is anyone bringing their kids to this run?. I have mixed emotions
> > about it, mine are good troopers but it seems like a long day for
> > them, yet the memory of seeing about a houndred Jeeps
> wheeling might
> > make it worth their while.
> >
> > If any of you are taking their kids, please let me know so
> I cant ask
> > them (my kids) what they want to do. Thanks.- Jose
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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63274 From: FredTJ <fredtj@c...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 10:30am
Subject: Re: Website Changes: Trail Ratings
I missed the beginning of this thread ( obviously ;) ), what's wrong with the current ASA4WDC ratings that we seem to use now. Is it that the rating itself is fine, but some of the listed trails are simply rated wrong on the website ??
Cheers,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: Chatfield, Mike
To: 'Arizona Virtual Jeep Club'
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 9:32 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Website Changes: Trail Ratings
Like I said the proposed system is a draft. Just a note, however, I never intended the 1 to 10 scale to be broke down into tenths (such as 5.6, 6.3, 2.1, etc) or even halves (4.5, 5.5, 6.5, etc..) I did 1 to 10 to not confuse between the two systems. I don't think it really matters if we call it 1.0, 2.5, 3.0, & 4.5 or 2, 5, 6, & 9 (respectively) Also following the rules of KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) would indicated that a 1 to 10 system with increments of 1 would be easier to follow than 1 to 5 scale with increments of .5.
However, I've been informed (this morning) that 1 to 5 systems are more and more becoming the standard.
How about this for a better 5 scale:
0 2WD: A class zero trail is any road on which the average family car can be driven. This includes all Freeways, Highways, Byways, County Roads, Grated Dirt Roads, Semi-Annually Maintained Roads, etc...
0.5 2WD/Easy 4WD: A Class point Five trail requires the additional ground clearance offered by 2WD and 4WD Sport Utility Vehicles (SUV). These trails feature obstacles that are easy to navigate. In optimum weather conditions, these trails may not require the continual use of four-wheel drive (4WD). Vehicles equipped with a rear locker or limited slip will likely not need 4WD even under adverse conditions.
1.0 Entry Level 4WD: A Class One trail requires 4WD, however, a full locker under optimal weather conditions may prevent the need (in some vehicles) for 4WD. Low range may be necessary and off-road (aggressive tread) tires are recommended. Skid plates to protect sensitive items (i.e. Engine and Transmission Oil pans, Transfer Cases, Rocker Panels, etc..) are recommended; highly recommended if vehicle is not lifted (i.e. stock suspension). These trails feature a wide variety of challenges: Potholes, minor washouts, soccer ball size rocks, and mud holes, etc.
1.5 Moderate 4WD: A Class one point five trail requires Low Range 4WD. Although passable by a stock 4WD vehicle, a Limited Slip differential (Front or Rear) and lift is highly recommended, if not lifted, then skid plates are required to prevent damage to sensitive items. Aggressive off-road tires and lower air pressure is recommended. These trails feature a variety of more difficult challenges: loose rocks, large potholes, steep inclines, larger rocks,etc. Moderate experience and driving skill advised. Likely paint damage, possible rocker-panel damage.
2.0 Challenging 4WD: A Class two trail requires Low Range 4WD, off-road tires, lift, at least one traction device, (lockers or LSD with increased articulation), and skid plates are required. At least one full locker, and larger tires are highly recommended. These trails require above average Off-Road driving skills. High-Lift jacks and winches may also be helpful. There will likely be paint damage and possible vehicle body and/or mechanical damage. These trails feature loose steep hill climbs, 24" ledges and rocks. Rollovers, while not common are possible.
2.5 Difficult 4WD/Easy Rock Crawling: A Class two point five trail is an entry level Rock Crawling trail. Traction Devices (Lockers or Limited Slip) are required in both differentials. 31" Tires, Skid Plates and Lift are required. Lower gears, 32"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, etc are highly recommended. These trails traverse very rugged terrain featuring 30" ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers, while not common are possible; correct tire placement becomes more important. Winches may also be helpful.
3.0 Mild Rock Crawling: A Class three trail is a Mild Rock Crawling trail. Traction Devices (Lockers or Limited Slip) are required in both differentials, at least one full Locker. 32" Tires, Skid Plates and Lift are required. Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components, 33"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, etc are highly recommended. These trails traverse very rugged terrain featuring 36" ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers, while not common become increasingly possible. Correct tire placement becomes increasingly important to avoid rollovers, mechanical damage and body damage. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts. Winches may also be helpful.
3.5 Moderate Rock Crawling: A Class three point five trail is a Moderate Rock Crawling trail. Full Lockers are required in both differentials. 33" Tires, Skid Plates, Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components and Lift are required. 35"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, and Winches are highly recommended. These trails traverse very rugged terrain featuring 42" ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers are more likely, especially when pushing a "bad line". Correct tire placement becomes critical in avoiding rollovers, mechanical damage and body damage. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts.
4.0 Difficult Rock Crawling: A Class four trail is a Difficult Rock Crawling trail. Full Lockers are required in both differentials. 35" Tires, Skid Plates, Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components, Winches and Lift are required. 37"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, and on board welder are highly recommended. These trails traverse extremely rugged terrain featuring 48" ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers are more common. Use of a Winch and Correct tire placement becomes critical in avoiding rollovers, mechanical damage and body damage. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts.
4.5 Extreme Rock Crawling: Class four point five trails are for the Extreme Rock Crawler in a Highly Modified vehicle only. Full Lockers are required in both differentials. 37" Tires, Skid Plates, Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components, Winches and Lift are required. 38"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, and on board welder are highly recommended. These trails traverse extremely rugged terrain featuring Jeep size ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers are increasingly common. Use of a Winch and Correct tire placement becomes critical in avoiding rollovers, mechanical damage and body damage. Paint damage is virtually guaranteed, body and/or mechanical damage is very likely. Certain obstacles may not be passable without the use of a winch. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts.
5 Impassable trail: Class five trails are impassable, even the Extreme Rock Crawler in a Highly Modified vehicle will require the use of a winch. Full Lockers are required in both differentials. 37" Tires, Skid Plates, Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components, Winches and Lift are required. 38"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, and on board welder are highly recommended. These trails traverse impassable terrain featuring house size ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers are virtually guaranteed. Use of a Winch and Correct tire placement becomes critical in completing the obstacle. Paint damage is virtually guaranteed, body and/or mechanical damage is extremely likely. Certain obstacles will require the use of a winch. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts.
However, this again differs from the ASA4WDC scale as it completely revamps the entire numbering system. A current 4.0 trail would become 3.0. Something like Predator (currently 4.5) would be considered 3.5, while Annihilator (also currently 4.5) would still be 4.5.
Or perhaps we should make things more complex and take the above numbers 2.5, 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5 & 5 and make them 3.75, 4.0, 4.25, 4.5, 4.75 & 5 (respectively) on the ASA4WDC scale. Either way, something needs to be done, because the current system does have a break down when it comes to trails rated above 4.0. For L. Woodpecker, Predator, Annihilator, Axle Alley, H2H, Armageddon, and Anaconda are all rated 4.5, yet the difficulty on these trails varies a great amount. L. Woodpecker and Predator I can do; while Annihilator and Axle Alley are two trails I don't feel my rig is capable of. But their all rated 4.5.
The + and -'s indicate only the possibilities of options. A + indicates that there are OPTIONAL obstacles rated higher than the "trail" rating. For instance Raw Deal is a 3.5+ There are OPTIONS on Raw Deal that could possibly take you into 4.5 territory. Minuses indicate that most of the trail is rated lower than its given rating, but it is rated at its highest NON-OPTIONAL obstacle. For instance before the ledge was removed on Crown King, it could be considered a 3.0-, Yet it also had optional sections that would give it a + rating. Perhaps it's rating should have been 3.0+/-?
Anyway that's my take on it. More discussion is needed before a "Final" rating system can be established. By discussion I mean talking about what the ratings SHOULD be, not what they SHOULDN'T be or how one person's idea sux, and that person retorts and this thread turns (in typical AzVJC fashion) to another bickering match. :)
Talk about it submit your ideas, comments and suggestions. Discuss the text of each description, what each "number" should represent, etc...
Thanks,
- Mike
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
63275 From: <SIMONLUKER@A...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 10:52am
Subject: 4 WHEELERS HAS PERMITS
Sandee was nice enough to drop off 18 permits. Thats all till next week. See Barry at 4 wheelers Supply 3530 e Washington
602 273 7195
Good Luck Simon
63276 From: Chatfield, Mike <Mike@A...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 10:58am
Subject: RE: Website Changes: Trail Ratings
The problem with the current rating system is:
"the current system does have a break down when it comes to trails rated above 4.0. For L. Woodpecker, Predator, Annihilator, Axle Alley, H2H, Armageddon, and Anaconda are all rated 4.5, yet the difficulty on these trails varies a great amount. L. Woodpecker and Predator I can do; while Annihilator and Axle Alley are two trails I don't feel my rig is capable of. But their all rated 4.5."
-----Original Message-----
From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 10:30 AM
To: 'Arizona Virtual Jeep Club'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Website Changes: Trail Ratings
I missed the beginning of this thread ( obviously ;) ), what's wrong with the current ASA4WDC ratings that we seem to use now. Is it that the rating itself is fine, but some of the listed trails are simply rated wrong on the website ??
Cheers,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: Chatfield, Mike
To: 'Arizona Virtual Jeep Club'
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 9:32 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Website Changes: Trail Ratings
Like I said the ...
Or perhaps we should make things more complex and take the above numbers 2.5, 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5 & 5 and make them 3.75, 4.0, 4.25, 4.5, 4.75 & 5 (respectively) on the ASA4WDC scale. Either way, something needs to be done, because the current system does have a break down when it comes to trails rated above 4.0. For L. Woodpecker, Predator, Annihilator, Axle Alley, H2H, Armageddon, and Anaconda are all rated 4.5, yet the difficulty on these trails varies a great amount. L. Woodpecker and Predator I can do; while Annihilator and Axle Alley are two trails I don't feel my rig is capable of. But their all rated 4.5.
63277 From: FredTJ <fredtj@c...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 11:23am
Subject: Re: Website Changes: Trail Ratings
Ahhh, then the problem is not with the trail rating, numeric system, but how the trails themselves are rated. To me, it seems, that's what needs re-vamping. The rating of the actual trails themselves, maybe not the system used to rate 'em ;)
Changing the system used to rate the trails and then simply overlaying that on top of the existing classification of the trails doesn't fix anything. The trails will still be classified wrongly.
Axle Alley, for instance, is clearly (to me anyway) a 5.0 trail. It requires a winch, for all but a handful of people, literally. That by defination, is a 5.0 trail. BTW, the local club, here in Tucson (TRR) rates AA as a 5.0.
I've never run, nor seen Annihilator, so I can't comment on it, but I suspect it's in the same boat. Simply mis-classified on the web site.
Best,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: Chatfield, Mike
To: 'Arizona Virtual Jeep Club'
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 10:58 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Website Changes: Trail Ratings
The problem with the current rating system is:
"the current system does have a break down when it comes to trails rated above 4.0. For L. Woodpecker, Predator, Annihilator, Axle Alley, H2H, Armageddon, and Anaconda are all rated 4.5, yet the difficulty on these trails varies a great amount. L. Woodpecker and Predator I can do; while Annihilator and Axle Alley are two trails I don't feel my rig is capable of. But their all rated 4.5."
-----Original Message-----
From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 10:30 AM
To: 'Arizona Virtual Jeep Club'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Website Changes: Trail Ratings
I missed the beginning of this thread ( obviously ;) ), what's wrong with the current ASA4WDC ratings that we seem to use now. Is it that the rating itself is fine, but some of the listed trails are simply rated wrong on the website ??
Cheers,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: Chatfield, Mike
To: 'Arizona Virtual Jeep Club'
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 9:32 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Website Changes: Trail Ratings
Like I said the ...
Or perhaps we should make things more complex and take the above numbers 2.5, 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5 & 5 and make them 3.75, 4.0, 4.25, 4.5, 4.75 & 5 (respectively) on the ASA4WDC scale. Either way, something needs to be done, because the current system does have a break down when it comes to trails rated above 4.0. For L. Woodpecker, Predator, Annihilator, Axle Alley, H2H, Armageddon, and Anaconda are all rated 4.5, yet the difficulty on these trails varies a great amount. L. Woodpecker and Predator I can do; while Annihilator and Axle Alley are two trails I don't feel my rig is capable of. But their all rated 4.5.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
63278 From: Chatfield, Mike <Mike@A...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 11:29am
Subject: United Association
All,
Sandee has informed me that it is possible for the AzVJC to join United as an association. A minimum of $50 is needed for this to happen -- Ideally we want to send $100 or more.
With association, we get to send 2 Delegates to United's yearly meeting (next year's meeting is in Flagstaff); so we'd need some nominations and a vote.
If someone would like to volunteer to collect money at Crown King this weekend that would be great (or I can do it if no one volunteers). Also I'd like to have a PayPal account set up so that those not participating in this weekend's events can donate.
This is a voluntary donation! If we receive more than we need, then we'll hold a vote to determine what to do with the extra.
ALSO! We'll be receiving an electronic version of the newsletter, which I will put online for everyone to download -- or I will e-mail it to those interested.
Thanks,
Mike Chatfield
Programmer/Analyst
Pegasus Solutions
(602) 861-7686
mike.chatfield@pegs.com
63279 From: tomas2691 <tomasr@a...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 11:44am
Subject: Re: Website Changes: Trail Ratings
The current 1-5 trail rating systems fails to accomodate a lot
of the new extreme trails. It lumps them all together at 4.5+
or 5.0. In my opinion, this is inadequate. For example, I think
Assylum is quite a bit more difficult than Anaconda yet these two
trails would probably get the same rating under the current system.
My opinion is that the 1-5 rating system could - and should - be
adequate but everything would have to be shifted down the scale a
bit. I don't see a need for the current ratings in the 1.0 - 2.0
range. You rarely see trails with those ratings so those numbers
in the rating system are wasted. If everything was shifted down,
that would free up the numbers at the "difficult" end of the scale
to accomodate all the new extreme trails that are really off the
end of the current scale. Trails in the 1.0 - 2.0 range could
either be described as "not rated" or maybe the numbers 0.0 and 0.5
could be added.
But I suspect this won't happen since it would change the ratings
of trails that people are familiar with. Maybe expanding the
current system to a 1-6 scale would suffice.
In any case, incorrect ratings for trails definitely need to be
corrected. I agree that Martinez Canyon is rated too high by
the ASA. Possibly Upper Terminator too.
My 2 cents.
-Roger
--- In az_vjc@y..., "FredTJ" <fredtj@c...> wrote:
> I missed the beginning of this thread ( obviously ;) ), what's
wrong with the current ASA4WDC ratings that we seem to use now. Is
it that the rating itself is fine, but some of the listed trails are
simply rated wrong on the website ??
>
>
> Cheers,
> Fred
63280 From: Chatfield, Mike <Mike@A...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 0:03pm
Subject: RE: Website Changes: Trail Ratings
It is more than trails not being classified correctly. The system needs revamped.
For instance Anaconda (no winch required) is rated a 4.5. Predator is rated a 4.5. I can wheel Predator with no problem. Anaconda is a bit beyond my rigs capabilities. So would you then say that Predator is the one needing "re-classified"? Maybe it needs to be a 4.0 instead. But then that puts it in the same category as Upper Terminator. Having done both of these trails numerous times I can tell you that U Terminator is FAR easier than Predator. So would we then rate L. Terminator a 3.5? Ok that's cool, but now L. Terminator and FR 42 are in the same category. L. Terminator is definitely more of a challenge than FR 42, so FR 42 needs to be reclassified to 3.0 right? Well now FR-42 and Crown King are in the same category and FR-42 is more of a challenge than Crown King (excluding the optional "hard" sections) So Crown King needs to be rated 2.5? Which puts Crown King in the same category as Martinez Cabin, which is even easier still. So Martinez Cabin becomes 2.0.
For those that have done Predator which sounds more like an accurate description?
A. These trails traverse very rugged terrain; low-range 4WD is required. Higher than stock ground clearance is required. Aggressive tread and low air pressure are required. Traction Devices (Lockers or limited-slip) in the differentials (front and rear), lift, and larger tires are highly recommended. These trails require above average Off-Road driving skills. High-Lift jacks and winches would also be helpful. There will likely be paint damage and possible vehicle body and/or mechanical damage.
B. These trails cross extremely rugged terrain with very steep inclines, large boulders, and potentially dangerous situations. These trails require modified vehicles, including lift, lockers, and over-sized tires. A High level of Off-Road driving skill is required. There will likely be paint damage, possible vehicle body and/or mechanical damage. There are possibilities of rollovers. Winches are recommended.
C. A Mild Rock Crawling trail. Traction Devices (Lockers or Limited Slip) are required in both differentials, at least one full Locker. 32" Tires, Skid Plates and Lift are required. Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components, 33"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, etc are highly recommended. These trails traverse very rugged terrain featuring 36" ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers, while not common become increasingly possible. Correct tire placement becomes increasingly important to avoid rollovers, mechanical damage and body damage. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts. Winches may also be helpful.
Option A indicates that some lift ("Higher than stock ground clearance is required") is required, but traction devices, and larger tires are only RECOMMENDED. So if I have a TJ with a 2" budget boost, factory LSD, factory gears and 31" BFG AT's I should be fine, right?
Option B (and with the current system there is no option between A and B) indicates that Lockers, Lift, and Oversize tires are required. So again, I throw a locker in one end of the TJ above in A and I can do B as long as I don't mind "possible vehicle body damage."
Option C says that 2 traction devices, one being a full locker, at least 32" tires, lower gears and upgraded drivetrain components (stronger axles) are REQUIRED.
To me, using the current system, Option B sounds the most like Predator -- however as listed above we've already determined that predator is only a 4.0, i.e. Option A.
No, given the nature of the Extreme trails, the current rating system is seriously flawed trying to place these trails into categories.
-----Original Message-----
From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 11:24 AM
To: 'Arizona Virtual Jeep Club'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Website Changes: Trail Ratings
Ahhh, then the problem is not with the trail rating, numeric system, but how the trails themselves are rated. To me, it seems, that's what needs re-vamping. The rating of the actual trails themselves, maybe not the system used to rate 'em ;)
Changing the system used to rate the trails and then simply overlaying that on top of the existing classification of the trails doesn't fix anything. The trails will still be classified wrongly.
Axle Alley, for instance, is clearly (to me anyway) a 5.0 trail. It requires a winch, for all but a handful of people, literally. That by defination, is a 5.0 trail. BTW, the local club, here in Tucson (TRR) rates AA as a 5.0.
I've never run, nor seen Annihilator, so I can't comment on it, but I suspect it's in the same boat. Simply mis-classified on the web site.
Best,
Fred
63281 From: Chatfield, Mike <Mike@A...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 0:07pm
Subject: RE: Re: Website Changes: Trail Ratings
BTW, everyone,
For the "new and improved" website, I'm going to add a "Member Rating" to
the Trails section. Members will be able to "rate" trails based on
difficulty, scenery and overall enjoyment. These "ratings" will of course
be completely separate from the "official" rating.
- Mike
63282 From: cottage5360 <W3VET@a...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 0:16pm
Subject: Cruise control for '98
I want to add cruise control to a '98 Wrangler 5-speed 6cyl.
I guess I need to change steering wheels.(Airbag)
Is there an aftermarket model with a little shaft like the GM style
that can be rigged up?
Has anyone here done anything like this?
TIA
Sharyl
63283 From: phxsteele2000 <phxsteele2000@a...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 0:28pm
Subject: Re: Cruise control for '98
There used to be a gut that sells the oem kits on ebay. No need to
change the steering wheel. I think they are around 200.00
Steele
--- In az_vjc@y..., "cottage5360" <W3VET@a...> wrote:
> I want to add cruise control to a '98 Wrangler 5-speed 6cyl.
> I guess I need to change steering wheels.(Airbag)
>
> Is there an aftermarket model with a little shaft like the GM style
> that can be rigged up?
>
> Has anyone here done anything like this?
> TIA
> Sharyl
63284 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 0:34pm
Subject: RE: muddin with a rockcrawler rig?
Jesus....do they make a Ziplock bag that is big enough to slip you CJ into? LOL
Remember.....MUD, JUST SAY NO!
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Jesus Chio [mailto:jchio@alloffroad.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:56 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] muddin with a rockcrawler rig?
Hello guys,
Im sure that 90% or more of you are rockcrawlers, that said I think it will be a lot of help what you have to say about mud since my Jeep is set for rockcrawling only (almost?) too.
What modifications would you do in order to get your rig mud capable? Say you wanna go to LA and do some mudbogs and hit the local mud trails...
Im going to a ramsey challenge that is supposed to be 98% mud so I wanna get the CJ ready, even if that means regearing or getting a different size of tires.
Im running a 350H0, 4.11s and 38.5Sx, D60s, Atlas II and Sm420. SOA with Rancho 9012s...
Any help will be appreciated!
Jesus Chio
www.alloffroad.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
GOT .COM?
www.offroadhost.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
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63285 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 0:35pm
Subject: RE: United Association
Mike....good idea. Count me in!
I'll volunteer to collect any donations for United on the 6:30AM run. Heck....I am going to charge everyone $2 anyways! (that was what Hackle told me to do so we would have enough $$ to get something cold to drink after the run was over!) LOL
Stu
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@AzChatfield.net]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 11:30 AM
To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [az_vjc] United Association
All,
Sandee has informed me that it is possible for the AzVJC to join United as an association. A minimum of $50 is needed for this to happen -- Ideally we want to send $100 or more.
With association, we get to send 2 Delegates to United's yearly meeting (next year's meeting is in Flagstaff); so we'd need some nominations and a vote.
If someone would like to volunteer to collect money at Crown King this weekend that would be great (or I can do it if no one volunteers). Also I'd like to have a PayPal account set up so that those not participating in this weekend's events can donate.
This is a voluntary donation! If we receive more than we need, then we'll hold a vote to determine what to do with the extra.
ALSO! We'll be receiving an electronic version of the newsletter, which I will put online for everyone to download -- or I will e-mail it to those interested.
Thanks,
Mike Chatfield
Programmer/Analyst
Pegasus Solutions
(602) 861-7686
mike.chatfield@pegs.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
63286 From: FredTJ <fredtj@c...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 0:34pm
Subject: Re: Cruise control for '98
Why do you think that you have to change the steering wheel ?
A friend, here in Tucson, just recently added cruise to his '98 TJ with
factory swtiches. No problems, no changes, etc.
Best,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: "cottage5360" <W3VET@a...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:16 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Cruise control for '98
> I want to add cruise control to a '98 Wrangler 5-speed 6cyl.
> I guess I need to change steering wheels.(Airbag)
>
> Is there an aftermarket model with a little shaft like the GM style
> that can be rigged up?
>
> Has anyone here done anything like this?
> TIA
> Sharyl
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
63262 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 7:56am
Subject: [FS] Lock-Right Locker for Dana 35 with ABS $150 Bucks OBO!
Price: $150.00 OBO
Contact: Luis Rodriguez(602)410-3401 "Cell Phone"
This is a Lock-right Locker P/N: T2311S2 with ABS Brackes. It fits any YJ with ABS Brakes or any TJ.
Luis Rodriguez
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
63263 From: FredTJ <fredtj@c...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 8:36am
Subject: Re: STL Permits
STL is different than BLM or FS land. For one, STL is not public land, it's private property. Also, by law, the State is "required" to make money for education (and other things) from the land, which is why permits are issued (for a fee and not free). Additional income comes from sale of the land also. The money that the State takes in from STL is suppose (by law) to be more than what's required to maintain it. STL, is "for profit" private property. I think this is one of the things that some people keep forgetting about.
Cheers,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: Jake Wagner
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:22 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] STL Permits
Sandee and I have exchanged a few e-mails and I figured I'd throw this out to the club since a few are complaining about the cost of the permit. A $20 Family Permit breaks down to $0.38 cents a week, and a $15 Individual Permit breaks down to $0.28 Cents a week. If you can't afford it then you shouldn't be driving a Jeep!
On top of this most of my friends and I throw about $800 to $1,000 a year at our TJs, $15/20 is a tank of gas people. I highly recommend that each and everyone in the club has one because I have no sympathy for someone who goes on a run and gets a minimun of a $500 fine. I myself was ignorant and did not know that one was needed, but you bet your butt I went out and purchased one and everyone of my passengers has one . All my regular wheeling friends also have them and we encourage all of you to purchase one.
I don't agree with the permit, but I'd rather pay $15 than $500. I'm already paying taxes, why should I have to pay for a permit to use the land? BLM and the Forest Service do not require one and the money to maintain the roads, etc come out of my paycheck via taxes every week.
See you all on the CK run, can't wait to trail test the body lift and motor mount lift Scott K, Joey K and I put on my TJ tonight.
Jake
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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63264 From: jaylalib <jaylalib1@c...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 8:41am
Subject: Thanks to Toys By Troy
Just wanted to say thanks to Troy, he and his guys did a great job
fixing my pesky SYE leak. After tearing it apart twice. I couldn't
bring myself to do it again!
Great price too!
Thanks Troy
Jason LaLiberty
63265 From: Jonathan Moore <jm9n@u...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 9:00am
Subject: Re: STL Permits
You might want to read the latest issue of United Voice put out by U4WDA. If you are a member, you receive it. If not go to http://www.ufwda.org/2K/ then on the right column go to Check here for the Latest Legislative related Land Use News courtesy Carla Boucher
and read the article about what is in our future.
Not trying to stir things up but it gives you the ability to have a say in things.
Jonathan
At 08:36 AM 8/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
STL is different than BLM or FS land. For one, STL is not public land, it's private property. Also, by law, the State is "required" to make money for education (and other things) from the land, which is why permits are issued (for a fee and not free). Additional income comes from sale of the land also. The money that the State takes in from STL is suppose (by law) to be more than what's required to maintain it. STL, is "for profit" private property. I think this is one of the things that some people keep forgetting about.
Cheers,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: Jake Wagner
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:22 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] STL Permits
Sandee and I have exchanged a few e-mails and I figured I'd throw this out to the club since a few are complaining about the cost of the permit. A $20 Family Permit breaks down to $0.38 cents a week, and a $15 Individual Permit breaks down to $0.28 Cents a week. If you can't afford it then you shouldn't be driving a Jeep!
On top of this most of my friends and I throw about $800 to $1,000 a year at our TJs, $15/20 is a tank of gas people. I highly recommend that each and everyone in the club has one because I have no sympathy for someone who goes on a run and gets a minimun of a $500 fine. I myself was ignorant and did not know that one was needed, but you bet your butt I went out and purchased one and everyone of my passengers has one . All my regular wheeling friends also have them and we encourage all of you to purchase one.
I don't agree with the permit, but I'd rather pay $15 than $500. I'm already paying taxes, why should I have to pay for a permit to use the land? BLM and the Forest Service do not require one and the money to maintain the roads, etc come out of my paycheck via taxes every week.
See you all on the CK run, can't wait to trail test the body lift and motor mount lift Scott K, Joey K and I put on my TJ tonight.
Jake
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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63266 From: intertwingled <intertwingled@q...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 9:36am
Subject: fuel tank problems solved, and, a question
Dear List:
Wanted to thank everyone for their help with
my 94 YJ fuel tank problems. I got rid of the
tank baffle and the fuel pressurization problem
went away. Of course, when I swing around corners
now my fuel gauge dips wildly. =)
I'd like to install a fuel pressure gauge inside
the passenger compartment but I understand that
a diaphragm is needed so that there is no fuel
inside of a line that actually leads to the fuel
pressure gauge. Has anyone here installed a gauge
like that? Another thought is to install the
gauge in a protective cowl in front of
the windshield. Thoughts? Comments? Criticisms?
Also, I am trying to find the exact name and
address of the 4wd supply store that is "on
Washington Street". That's how I've heard it,
"you know, that 4wd store on Washington Street."
I hear good things about this store and I want
to stop by there today to price some roll cage
kits and other stuff.
Thanks,
Tony
--
even the safest course is fraught with peril
63267 From: RAM <ramaz@c...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 9:20am
Subject: RE: fuel tank problems solved, and, a question
Hi Tony
Here you go...
4 Wheelers Supply
3530 E. Washington
Phoenix, AZ 85034
(602) 273-7195
RAM
Randall A. Mutter 95XJ, 76 CJ-7
ramaz@c...
Thank goodness there are no 12 step programs for Jeeping...
-----Original Message-----
From: intertwingled [mailto:intertwingled@q...]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 9:36 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] fuel tank problems solved, and, a question
Dear List:
Wanted to thank everyone for their help with
my 94 YJ fuel tank problems. I got rid of the
tank baffle and the fuel pressurization problem
went away. Of course, when I swing around corners
now my fuel gauge dips wildly. =)
I'd like to install a fuel pressure gauge inside
the passenger compartment but I understand that
a diaphragm is needed so that there is no fuel
inside of a line that actually leads to the fuel
pressure gauge. Has anyone here installed a gauge
like that? Another thought is to install the
gauge in a protective cowl in front of
the windshield. Thoughts? Comments? Criticisms?
Also, I am trying to find the exact name and
address of the 4wd supply store that is "on
Washington Street". That's how I've heard it,
"you know, that 4wd store on Washington Street."
I hear good things about this store and I want
to stop by there today to price some roll cage
kits and other stuff.
Thanks,
Tony
--
even the safest course is fraught with peril
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
63268 From: Chatfield, Mike <Mike@A...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 9:32am
Subject: RE: Website Changes: Trail Ratings
Like I said the proposed system is a draft. Just a note, however, I never intended the 1 to 10 scale to be broke down into tenths (such as 5.6, 6.3, 2.1, etc) or even halves (4.5, 5.5, 6.5, etc..) I did 1 to 10 to not confuse between the two systems. I don't think it really matters if we call it 1.0, 2.5, 3.0, & 4.5 or 2, 5, 6, & 9 (respectively) Also following the rules of KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) would indicated that a 1 to 10 system with increments of 1 would be easier to follow than 1 to 5 scale with increments of .5.
However, I've been informed (this morning) that 1 to 5 systems are more and more becoming the standard.
How about this for a better 5 scale:
0 2WD: A class zero trail is any road on which the average family car can be driven. This includes all Freeways, Highways, Byways, County Roads, Grated Dirt Roads, Semi-Annually Maintained Roads, etc...
0.5 2WD/Easy 4WD: A Class point Five trail requires the additional ground clearance offered by 2WD and 4WD Sport Utility Vehicles (SUV). These trails feature obstacles that are easy to navigate. In optimum weather conditions, these trails may not require the continual use of four-wheel drive (4WD). Vehicles equipped with a rear locker or limited slip will likely not need 4WD even under adverse conditions.
1.0 Entry Level 4WD: A Class One trail requires 4WD, however, a full locker under optimal weather conditions may prevent the need (in some vehicles) for 4WD. Low range may be necessary and off-road (aggressive tread) tires are recommended. Skid plates to protect sensitive items (i.e. Engine and Transmission Oil pans, Transfer Cases, Rocker Panels, etc..) are recommended; highly recommended if vehicle is not lifted (i.e. stock suspension). These trails feature a wide variety of challenges: Potholes, minor washouts, soccer ball size rocks, and mud holes, etc.
1.5 Moderate 4WD: A Class one point five trail requires Low Range 4WD. Although passable by a stock 4WD vehicle, a Limited Slip differential (Front or Rear) and lift is highly recommended, if not lifted, then skid plates are required to prevent damage to sensitive items. Aggressive off-road tires and lower air pressure is recommended. These trails feature a variety of more difficult challenges: loose rocks, large potholes, steep inclines, larger rocks,etc. Moderate experience and driving skill advised. Likely paint damage, possible rocker-panel damage.
2.0 Challenging 4WD: A Class two trail requires Low Range 4WD, off-road tires, lift, at least one traction device, (lockers or LSD with increased articulation), and skid plates are required. At least one full locker, and larger tires are highly recommended. These trails require above average Off-Road driving skills. High-Lift jacks and winches may also be helpful. There will likely be paint damage and possible vehicle body and/or mechanical damage. These trails feature loose steep hill climbs, 24" ledges and rocks. Rollovers, while not common are possible.
2.5 Difficult 4WD/Easy Rock Crawling: A Class two point five trail is an entry level Rock Crawling trail. Traction Devices (Lockers or Limited Slip) are required in both differentials. 31" Tires, Skid Plates and Lift are required. Lower gears, 32"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, etc are highly recommended. These trails traverse very rugged terrain featuring 30" ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers, while not common are possible; correct tire placement becomes more important. Winches may also be helpful.
3.0 Mild Rock Crawling: A Class three trail is a Mild Rock Crawling trail. Traction Devices (Lockers or Limited Slip) are required in both differentials, at least one full Locker. 32" Tires, Skid Plates and Lift are required. Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components, 33"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, etc are highly recommended. These trails traverse very rugged terrain featuring 36" ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers, while not common become increasingly possible. Correct tire placement becomes increasingly important to avoid rollovers, mechanical damage and body damage. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts. Winches may also be helpful.
3.5 Moderate Rock Crawling: A Class three point five trail is a Moderate Rock Crawling trail. Full Lockers are required in both differentials. 33" Tires, Skid Plates, Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components and Lift are required. 35"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, and Winches are highly recommended. These trails traverse very rugged terrain featuring 42" ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers are more likely, especially when pushing a "bad line". Correct tire placement becomes critical in avoiding rollovers, mechanical damage and body damage. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts.
4.0 Difficult Rock Crawling: A Class four trail is a Difficult Rock Crawling trail. Full Lockers are required in both differentials. 35" Tires, Skid Plates, Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components, Winches and Lift are required. 37"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, and on board welder are highly recommended. These trails traverse extremely rugged terrain featuring 48" ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers are more common. Use of a Winch and Correct tire placement becomes critical in avoiding rollovers, mechanical damage and body damage. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts.
4.5 Extreme Rock Crawling: Class four point five trails are for the Extreme Rock Crawler in a Highly Modified vehicle only. Full Lockers are required in both differentials. 37" Tires, Skid Plates, Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components, Winches and Lift are required. 38"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, and on board welder are highly recommended. These trails traverse extremely rugged terrain featuring Jeep size ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers are increasingly common. Use of a Winch and Correct tire placement becomes critical in avoiding rollovers, mechanical damage and body damage. Paint damage is virtually guaranteed, body and/or mechanical damage is very likely. Certain obstacles may not be passable without the use of a winch. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts.
5 Impassable trail: Class five trails are impassable, even the Extreme Rock Crawler in a Highly Modified vehicle will require the use of a winch. Full Lockers are required in both differentials. 37" Tires, Skid Plates, Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components, Winches and Lift are required. 38"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, and on board welder are highly recommended. These trails traverse impassable terrain featuring house size ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers are virtually guaranteed. Use of a Winch and Correct tire placement becomes critical in completing the obstacle. Paint damage is virtually guaranteed, body and/or mechanical damage is extremely likely. Certain obstacles will require the use of a winch. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts.
However, this again differs from the ASA4WDC scale as it completely revamps the entire numbering system. A current 4.0 trail would become 3.0. Something like Predator (currently 4.5) would be considered 3.5, while Annihilator (also currently 4.5) would still be 4.5.
Or perhaps we should make things more complex and take the above numbers 2.5, 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5 & 5 and make them 3.75, 4.0, 4.25, 4.5, 4.75 & 5 (respectively) on the ASA4WDC scale. Either way, something needs to be done, because the current system does have a break down when it comes to trails rated above 4.0. For L. Woodpecker, Predator, Annihilator, Axle Alley, H2H, Armageddon, and Anaconda are all rated 4.5, yet the difficulty on these trails varies a great amount. L. Woodpecker and Predator I can do; while Annihilator and Axle Alley are two trails I don't feel my rig is capable of. But their all rated 4.5.
The + and -'s indicate only the possibilities of options. A + indicates that there are OPTIONAL obstacles rated higher than the "trail" rating. For instance Raw Deal is a 3.5+ There are OPTIONS on Raw Deal that could possibly take you into 4.5 territory. Minuses indicate that most of the trail is rated lower than its given rating, but it is rated at its highest NON-OPTIONAL obstacle. For instance before the ledge was removed on Crown King, it could be considered a 3.0-, Yet it also had optional sections that would give it a + rating. Perhaps it's rating should have been 3.0+/-?
Anyway that's my take on it. More discussion is needed before a "Final" rating system can be established. By discussion I mean talking about what the ratings SHOULD be, not what they SHOULDN'T be or how one person's idea sux, and that person retorts and this thread turns (in typical AzVJC fashion) to another bickering match. :)
Talk about it submit your ideas, comments and suggestions. Discuss the text of each description, what each "number" should represent, etc...
Thanks,
- Mike
63269 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 9:34am
Subject: [FS] C4x4 Rock Rails 4 Sale
Price: $180.00
Contact: Rick Lovaas
Selling my rails, they don't fit with Bushwackers! I also have a custom roof rack if interested. Please email me if interested: lovaasr@hotmail.com
Rick Lovaas
63270 From: Gary_Pugsley <gary_pugsley@h...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 9:42am
Subject: Four Wheeler's Supply has permits
FYI, I just called Four Wheeler's Supply and they said that the state
was there dropping off permits, so they should have them in stock now.
Pugs
63271 From: Jim Hughes <jhughes@h...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 9:52am
Subject: Re: fuel tank problems solved, and, a question
Four Wheeler's Supply
>>> "intertwingled" <intertwingled@q...> 08/15/02 09:36AM >>>
Dear List:
Wanted to thank everyone for their help with
my 94 YJ fuel tank problems. I got rid of the
tank baffle and the fuel pressurization problem
went away. Of course, when I swing around corners
now my fuel gauge dips wildly. =)
I'd like to install a fuel pressure gauge inside
the passenger compartment but I understand that
a diaphragm is needed so that there is no fuel
inside of a line that actually leads to the fuel
pressure gauge. Has anyone here installed a gauge
like that? Another thought is to install the
gauge in a protective cowl in front of
the windshield. Thoughts? Comments? Criticisms?
Also, I am trying to find the exact name and
address of the 4wd supply store that is "on
Washington Street". That's how I've heard it,
"you know, that 4wd store on Washington Street."
I hear good things about this store and I want
to stop by there today to price some roll cage
kits and other stuff.
Thanks,
Tony
--
even the safest course is fraught with peril
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
63272 From: Daver <daver@c...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 10:23am
Subject: Re: fuel tank problems solved, and, a question
4 Wheelers Supply
3530 E. Washington Phoenix
AZ 85034
(602) 273-7195
http://www.4wheelers.com/
At 09:36 AM 8/15/2002 -0700, intertwingled wrote:
>Also, I am trying to find the exact name and
>address of the 4wd supply store that is "on
>Washington Street". That's how I've heard it,
>"you know, that 4wd store on Washington Street."
>I hear good things about this store and I want
>to stop by there today to price some roll cage
>kits and other stuff.
63273 From: James Smith <jeepinsmitty@y...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 10:26am
Subject: RE: Kids on the CK run on Saturday
My son 11 is coming too. He came last year and loves to jeep. Kids make great slug bug and cattle guard game companions.
Smitty
DesertJeep wrote:
Kyle,
My son will be 6 Sunday and he's nothing like me. So your twins will be
safe on the Turkey Creek Run. ;)
Joey K
93YJ
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kyle Hagan [mailto:Kyle@spiderfirewall.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 5:07 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Kids on the CK run on Saturday
>
>
> What groups is everyone taking that are bringing the kids. I
> might be bringing my Twin Girls (7yrs) and It might be good
> to go with groups that have kids also. They have been with me
> before on trips in florida and they love it.
>
> Kyle
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rick Norman" <4x4xfun1@cox.net>
> To: "zj_lopez" ;
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 4:59 PM
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Kids on the CK run on Saturday
>
>
> > We will be bringing Alyssa(9), Anah(9) and Shawna(3). They
> should have
> lots
> > of fun with the other kids.
> >
> > Rick
> > XTRM XJ
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: zj_lopez [mailto:off-road@cox.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 2:48 PM
> > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Kids on the CK run on Saturday
> >
> >
> > Is anyone bringing their kids to this run?. I have mixed emotions
> > about it, mine are good troopers but it seems like a long day for
> > them, yet the memory of seeing about a houndred Jeeps
> wheeling might
> > make it worth their while.
> >
> > If any of you are taking their kids, please let me know so
> I cant ask
> > them (my kids) what they want to do. Thanks.- Jose
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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63274 From: FredTJ <fredtj@c...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 10:30am
Subject: Re: Website Changes: Trail Ratings
I missed the beginning of this thread ( obviously ;) ), what's wrong with the current ASA4WDC ratings that we seem to use now. Is it that the rating itself is fine, but some of the listed trails are simply rated wrong on the website ??
Cheers,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: Chatfield, Mike
To: 'Arizona Virtual Jeep Club'
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 9:32 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Website Changes: Trail Ratings
Like I said the proposed system is a draft. Just a note, however, I never intended the 1 to 10 scale to be broke down into tenths (such as 5.6, 6.3, 2.1, etc) or even halves (4.5, 5.5, 6.5, etc..) I did 1 to 10 to not confuse between the two systems. I don't think it really matters if we call it 1.0, 2.5, 3.0, & 4.5 or 2, 5, 6, & 9 (respectively) Also following the rules of KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) would indicated that a 1 to 10 system with increments of 1 would be easier to follow than 1 to 5 scale with increments of .5.
However, I've been informed (this morning) that 1 to 5 systems are more and more becoming the standard.
How about this for a better 5 scale:
0 2WD: A class zero trail is any road on which the average family car can be driven. This includes all Freeways, Highways, Byways, County Roads, Grated Dirt Roads, Semi-Annually Maintained Roads, etc...
0.5 2WD/Easy 4WD: A Class point Five trail requires the additional ground clearance offered by 2WD and 4WD Sport Utility Vehicles (SUV). These trails feature obstacles that are easy to navigate. In optimum weather conditions, these trails may not require the continual use of four-wheel drive (4WD). Vehicles equipped with a rear locker or limited slip will likely not need 4WD even under adverse conditions.
1.0 Entry Level 4WD: A Class One trail requires 4WD, however, a full locker under optimal weather conditions may prevent the need (in some vehicles) for 4WD. Low range may be necessary and off-road (aggressive tread) tires are recommended. Skid plates to protect sensitive items (i.e. Engine and Transmission Oil pans, Transfer Cases, Rocker Panels, etc..) are recommended; highly recommended if vehicle is not lifted (i.e. stock suspension). These trails feature a wide variety of challenges: Potholes, minor washouts, soccer ball size rocks, and mud holes, etc.
1.5 Moderate 4WD: A Class one point five trail requires Low Range 4WD. Although passable by a stock 4WD vehicle, a Limited Slip differential (Front or Rear) and lift is highly recommended, if not lifted, then skid plates are required to prevent damage to sensitive items. Aggressive off-road tires and lower air pressure is recommended. These trails feature a variety of more difficult challenges: loose rocks, large potholes, steep inclines, larger rocks,etc. Moderate experience and driving skill advised. Likely paint damage, possible rocker-panel damage.
2.0 Challenging 4WD: A Class two trail requires Low Range 4WD, off-road tires, lift, at least one traction device, (lockers or LSD with increased articulation), and skid plates are required. At least one full locker, and larger tires are highly recommended. These trails require above average Off-Road driving skills. High-Lift jacks and winches may also be helpful. There will likely be paint damage and possible vehicle body and/or mechanical damage. These trails feature loose steep hill climbs, 24" ledges and rocks. Rollovers, while not common are possible.
2.5 Difficult 4WD/Easy Rock Crawling: A Class two point five trail is an entry level Rock Crawling trail. Traction Devices (Lockers or Limited Slip) are required in both differentials. 31" Tires, Skid Plates and Lift are required. Lower gears, 32"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, etc are highly recommended. These trails traverse very rugged terrain featuring 30" ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers, while not common are possible; correct tire placement becomes more important. Winches may also be helpful.
3.0 Mild Rock Crawling: A Class three trail is a Mild Rock Crawling trail. Traction Devices (Lockers or Limited Slip) are required in both differentials, at least one full Locker. 32" Tires, Skid Plates and Lift are required. Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components, 33"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, etc are highly recommended. These trails traverse very rugged terrain featuring 36" ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers, while not common become increasingly possible. Correct tire placement becomes increasingly important to avoid rollovers, mechanical damage and body damage. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts. Winches may also be helpful.
3.5 Moderate Rock Crawling: A Class three point five trail is a Moderate Rock Crawling trail. Full Lockers are required in both differentials. 33" Tires, Skid Plates, Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components and Lift are required. 35"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, and Winches are highly recommended. These trails traverse very rugged terrain featuring 42" ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers are more likely, especially when pushing a "bad line". Correct tire placement becomes critical in avoiding rollovers, mechanical damage and body damage. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts.
4.0 Difficult Rock Crawling: A Class four trail is a Difficult Rock Crawling trail. Full Lockers are required in both differentials. 35" Tires, Skid Plates, Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components, Winches and Lift are required. 37"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, and on board welder are highly recommended. These trails traverse extremely rugged terrain featuring 48" ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers are more common. Use of a Winch and Correct tire placement becomes critical in avoiding rollovers, mechanical damage and body damage. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts.
4.5 Extreme Rock Crawling: Class four point five trails are for the Extreme Rock Crawler in a Highly Modified vehicle only. Full Lockers are required in both differentials. 37" Tires, Skid Plates, Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components, Winches and Lift are required. 38"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, and on board welder are highly recommended. These trails traverse extremely rugged terrain featuring Jeep size ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers are increasingly common. Use of a Winch and Correct tire placement becomes critical in avoiding rollovers, mechanical damage and body damage. Paint damage is virtually guaranteed, body and/or mechanical damage is very likely. Certain obstacles may not be passable without the use of a winch. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts.
5 Impassable trail: Class five trails are impassable, even the Extreme Rock Crawler in a Highly Modified vehicle will require the use of a winch. Full Lockers are required in both differentials. 37" Tires, Skid Plates, Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components, Winches and Lift are required. 38"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, and on board welder are highly recommended. These trails traverse impassable terrain featuring house size ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers are virtually guaranteed. Use of a Winch and Correct tire placement becomes critical in completing the obstacle. Paint damage is virtually guaranteed, body and/or mechanical damage is extremely likely. Certain obstacles will require the use of a winch. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts.
However, this again differs from the ASA4WDC scale as it completely revamps the entire numbering system. A current 4.0 trail would become 3.0. Something like Predator (currently 4.5) would be considered 3.5, while Annihilator (also currently 4.5) would still be 4.5.
Or perhaps we should make things more complex and take the above numbers 2.5, 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5 & 5 and make them 3.75, 4.0, 4.25, 4.5, 4.75 & 5 (respectively) on the ASA4WDC scale. Either way, something needs to be done, because the current system does have a break down when it comes to trails rated above 4.0. For L. Woodpecker, Predator, Annihilator, Axle Alley, H2H, Armageddon, and Anaconda are all rated 4.5, yet the difficulty on these trails varies a great amount. L. Woodpecker and Predator I can do; while Annihilator and Axle Alley are two trails I don't feel my rig is capable of. But their all rated 4.5.
The + and -'s indicate only the possibilities of options. A + indicates that there are OPTIONAL obstacles rated higher than the "trail" rating. For instance Raw Deal is a 3.5+ There are OPTIONS on Raw Deal that could possibly take you into 4.5 territory. Minuses indicate that most of the trail is rated lower than its given rating, but it is rated at its highest NON-OPTIONAL obstacle. For instance before the ledge was removed on Crown King, it could be considered a 3.0-, Yet it also had optional sections that would give it a + rating. Perhaps it's rating should have been 3.0+/-?
Anyway that's my take on it. More discussion is needed before a "Final" rating system can be established. By discussion I mean talking about what the ratings SHOULD be, not what they SHOULDN'T be or how one person's idea sux, and that person retorts and this thread turns (in typical AzVJC fashion) to another bickering match. :)
Talk about it submit your ideas, comments and suggestions. Discuss the text of each description, what each "number" should represent, etc...
Thanks,
- Mike
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
63275 From: <SIMONLUKER@A...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 10:52am
Subject: 4 WHEELERS HAS PERMITS
Sandee was nice enough to drop off 18 permits. Thats all till next week. See Barry at 4 wheelers Supply 3530 e Washington
602 273 7195
Good Luck Simon
63276 From: Chatfield, Mike <Mike@A...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 10:58am
Subject: RE: Website Changes: Trail Ratings
The problem with the current rating system is:
"the current system does have a break down when it comes to trails rated above 4.0. For L. Woodpecker, Predator, Annihilator, Axle Alley, H2H, Armageddon, and Anaconda are all rated 4.5, yet the difficulty on these trails varies a great amount. L. Woodpecker and Predator I can do; while Annihilator and Axle Alley are two trails I don't feel my rig is capable of. But their all rated 4.5."
-----Original Message-----
From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 10:30 AM
To: 'Arizona Virtual Jeep Club'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Website Changes: Trail Ratings
I missed the beginning of this thread ( obviously ;) ), what's wrong with the current ASA4WDC ratings that we seem to use now. Is it that the rating itself is fine, but some of the listed trails are simply rated wrong on the website ??
Cheers,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: Chatfield, Mike
To: 'Arizona Virtual Jeep Club'
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 9:32 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Website Changes: Trail Ratings
Like I said the ...
Or perhaps we should make things more complex and take the above numbers 2.5, 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5 & 5 and make them 3.75, 4.0, 4.25, 4.5, 4.75 & 5 (respectively) on the ASA4WDC scale. Either way, something needs to be done, because the current system does have a break down when it comes to trails rated above 4.0. For L. Woodpecker, Predator, Annihilator, Axle Alley, H2H, Armageddon, and Anaconda are all rated 4.5, yet the difficulty on these trails varies a great amount. L. Woodpecker and Predator I can do; while Annihilator and Axle Alley are two trails I don't feel my rig is capable of. But their all rated 4.5.
63277 From: FredTJ <fredtj@c...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 11:23am
Subject: Re: Website Changes: Trail Ratings
Ahhh, then the problem is not with the trail rating, numeric system, but how the trails themselves are rated. To me, it seems, that's what needs re-vamping. The rating of the actual trails themselves, maybe not the system used to rate 'em ;)
Changing the system used to rate the trails and then simply overlaying that on top of the existing classification of the trails doesn't fix anything. The trails will still be classified wrongly.
Axle Alley, for instance, is clearly (to me anyway) a 5.0 trail. It requires a winch, for all but a handful of people, literally. That by defination, is a 5.0 trail. BTW, the local club, here in Tucson (TRR) rates AA as a 5.0.
I've never run, nor seen Annihilator, so I can't comment on it, but I suspect it's in the same boat. Simply mis-classified on the web site.
Best,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: Chatfield, Mike
To: 'Arizona Virtual Jeep Club'
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 10:58 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Website Changes: Trail Ratings
The problem with the current rating system is:
"the current system does have a break down when it comes to trails rated above 4.0. For L. Woodpecker, Predator, Annihilator, Axle Alley, H2H, Armageddon, and Anaconda are all rated 4.5, yet the difficulty on these trails varies a great amount. L. Woodpecker and Predator I can do; while Annihilator and Axle Alley are two trails I don't feel my rig is capable of. But their all rated 4.5."
-----Original Message-----
From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 10:30 AM
To: 'Arizona Virtual Jeep Club'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Website Changes: Trail Ratings
I missed the beginning of this thread ( obviously ;) ), what's wrong with the current ASA4WDC ratings that we seem to use now. Is it that the rating itself is fine, but some of the listed trails are simply rated wrong on the website ??
Cheers,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: Chatfield, Mike
To: 'Arizona Virtual Jeep Club'
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 9:32 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Website Changes: Trail Ratings
Like I said the ...
Or perhaps we should make things more complex and take the above numbers 2.5, 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5 & 5 and make them 3.75, 4.0, 4.25, 4.5, 4.75 & 5 (respectively) on the ASA4WDC scale. Either way, something needs to be done, because the current system does have a break down when it comes to trails rated above 4.0. For L. Woodpecker, Predator, Annihilator, Axle Alley, H2H, Armageddon, and Anaconda are all rated 4.5, yet the difficulty on these trails varies a great amount. L. Woodpecker and Predator I can do; while Annihilator and Axle Alley are two trails I don't feel my rig is capable of. But their all rated 4.5.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
63278 From: Chatfield, Mike <Mike@A...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 11:29am
Subject: United Association
All,
Sandee has informed me that it is possible for the AzVJC to join United as an association. A minimum of $50 is needed for this to happen -- Ideally we want to send $100 or more.
With association, we get to send 2 Delegates to United's yearly meeting (next year's meeting is in Flagstaff); so we'd need some nominations and a vote.
If someone would like to volunteer to collect money at Crown King this weekend that would be great (or I can do it if no one volunteers). Also I'd like to have a PayPal account set up so that those not participating in this weekend's events can donate.
This is a voluntary donation! If we receive more than we need, then we'll hold a vote to determine what to do with the extra.
ALSO! We'll be receiving an electronic version of the newsletter, which I will put online for everyone to download -- or I will e-mail it to those interested.
Thanks,
Mike Chatfield
Programmer/Analyst
Pegasus Solutions
(602) 861-7686
mike.chatfield@pegs.com
63279 From: tomas2691 <tomasr@a...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 11:44am
Subject: Re: Website Changes: Trail Ratings
The current 1-5 trail rating systems fails to accomodate a lot
of the new extreme trails. It lumps them all together at 4.5+
or 5.0. In my opinion, this is inadequate. For example, I think
Assylum is quite a bit more difficult than Anaconda yet these two
trails would probably get the same rating under the current system.
My opinion is that the 1-5 rating system could - and should - be
adequate but everything would have to be shifted down the scale a
bit. I don't see a need for the current ratings in the 1.0 - 2.0
range. You rarely see trails with those ratings so those numbers
in the rating system are wasted. If everything was shifted down,
that would free up the numbers at the "difficult" end of the scale
to accomodate all the new extreme trails that are really off the
end of the current scale. Trails in the 1.0 - 2.0 range could
either be described as "not rated" or maybe the numbers 0.0 and 0.5
could be added.
But I suspect this won't happen since it would change the ratings
of trails that people are familiar with. Maybe expanding the
current system to a 1-6 scale would suffice.
In any case, incorrect ratings for trails definitely need to be
corrected. I agree that Martinez Canyon is rated too high by
the ASA. Possibly Upper Terminator too.
My 2 cents.
-Roger
--- In az_vjc@y..., "FredTJ" <fredtj@c...> wrote:
> I missed the beginning of this thread ( obviously ;) ), what's
wrong with the current ASA4WDC ratings that we seem to use now. Is
it that the rating itself is fine, but some of the listed trails are
simply rated wrong on the website ??
>
>
> Cheers,
> Fred
63280 From: Chatfield, Mike <Mike@A...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 0:03pm
Subject: RE: Website Changes: Trail Ratings
It is more than trails not being classified correctly. The system needs revamped.
For instance Anaconda (no winch required) is rated a 4.5. Predator is rated a 4.5. I can wheel Predator with no problem. Anaconda is a bit beyond my rigs capabilities. So would you then say that Predator is the one needing "re-classified"? Maybe it needs to be a 4.0 instead. But then that puts it in the same category as Upper Terminator. Having done both of these trails numerous times I can tell you that U Terminator is FAR easier than Predator. So would we then rate L. Terminator a 3.5? Ok that's cool, but now L. Terminator and FR 42 are in the same category. L. Terminator is definitely more of a challenge than FR 42, so FR 42 needs to be reclassified to 3.0 right? Well now FR-42 and Crown King are in the same category and FR-42 is more of a challenge than Crown King (excluding the optional "hard" sections) So Crown King needs to be rated 2.5? Which puts Crown King in the same category as Martinez Cabin, which is even easier still. So Martinez Cabin becomes 2.0.
For those that have done Predator which sounds more like an accurate description?
A. These trails traverse very rugged terrain; low-range 4WD is required. Higher than stock ground clearance is required. Aggressive tread and low air pressure are required. Traction Devices (Lockers or limited-slip) in the differentials (front and rear), lift, and larger tires are highly recommended. These trails require above average Off-Road driving skills. High-Lift jacks and winches would also be helpful. There will likely be paint damage and possible vehicle body and/or mechanical damage.
B. These trails cross extremely rugged terrain with very steep inclines, large boulders, and potentially dangerous situations. These trails require modified vehicles, including lift, lockers, and over-sized tires. A High level of Off-Road driving skill is required. There will likely be paint damage, possible vehicle body and/or mechanical damage. There are possibilities of rollovers. Winches are recommended.
C. A Mild Rock Crawling trail. Traction Devices (Lockers or Limited Slip) are required in both differentials, at least one full Locker. 32" Tires, Skid Plates and Lift are required. Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components, 33"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, etc are highly recommended. These trails traverse very rugged terrain featuring 36" ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers, while not common become increasingly possible. Correct tire placement becomes increasingly important to avoid rollovers, mechanical damage and body damage. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts. Winches may also be helpful.
Option A indicates that some lift ("Higher than stock ground clearance is required") is required, but traction devices, and larger tires are only RECOMMENDED. So if I have a TJ with a 2" budget boost, factory LSD, factory gears and 31" BFG AT's I should be fine, right?
Option B (and with the current system there is no option between A and B) indicates that Lockers, Lift, and Oversize tires are required. So again, I throw a locker in one end of the TJ above in A and I can do B as long as I don't mind "possible vehicle body damage."
Option C says that 2 traction devices, one being a full locker, at least 32" tires, lower gears and upgraded drivetrain components (stronger axles) are REQUIRED.
To me, using the current system, Option B sounds the most like Predator -- however as listed above we've already determined that predator is only a 4.0, i.e. Option A.
No, given the nature of the Extreme trails, the current rating system is seriously flawed trying to place these trails into categories.
-----Original Message-----
From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 11:24 AM
To: 'Arizona Virtual Jeep Club'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Website Changes: Trail Ratings
Ahhh, then the problem is not with the trail rating, numeric system, but how the trails themselves are rated. To me, it seems, that's what needs re-vamping. The rating of the actual trails themselves, maybe not the system used to rate 'em ;)
Changing the system used to rate the trails and then simply overlaying that on top of the existing classification of the trails doesn't fix anything. The trails will still be classified wrongly.
Axle Alley, for instance, is clearly (to me anyway) a 5.0 trail. It requires a winch, for all but a handful of people, literally. That by defination, is a 5.0 trail. BTW, the local club, here in Tucson (TRR) rates AA as a 5.0.
I've never run, nor seen Annihilator, so I can't comment on it, but I suspect it's in the same boat. Simply mis-classified on the web site.
Best,
Fred
63281 From: Chatfield, Mike <Mike@A...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 0:07pm
Subject: RE: Re: Website Changes: Trail Ratings
BTW, everyone,
For the "new and improved" website, I'm going to add a "Member Rating" to
the Trails section. Members will be able to "rate" trails based on
difficulty, scenery and overall enjoyment. These "ratings" will of course
be completely separate from the "official" rating.
- Mike
63282 From: cottage5360 <W3VET@a...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 0:16pm
Subject: Cruise control for '98
I want to add cruise control to a '98 Wrangler 5-speed 6cyl.
I guess I need to change steering wheels.(Airbag)
Is there an aftermarket model with a little shaft like the GM style
that can be rigged up?
Has anyone here done anything like this?
TIA
Sharyl
63283 From: phxsteele2000 <phxsteele2000@a...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 0:28pm
Subject: Re: Cruise control for '98
There used to be a gut that sells the oem kits on ebay. No need to
change the steering wheel. I think they are around 200.00
Steele
--- In az_vjc@y..., "cottage5360" <W3VET@a...> wrote:
> I want to add cruise control to a '98 Wrangler 5-speed 6cyl.
> I guess I need to change steering wheels.(Airbag)
>
> Is there an aftermarket model with a little shaft like the GM style
> that can be rigged up?
>
> Has anyone here done anything like this?
> TIA
> Sharyl
63284 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 0:34pm
Subject: RE: muddin with a rockcrawler rig?
Jesus....do they make a Ziplock bag that is big enough to slip you CJ into? LOL
Remember.....MUD, JUST SAY NO!
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Jesus Chio [mailto:jchio@alloffroad.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:56 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] muddin with a rockcrawler rig?
Hello guys,
Im sure that 90% or more of you are rockcrawlers, that said I think it will be a lot of help what you have to say about mud since my Jeep is set for rockcrawling only (almost?) too.
What modifications would you do in order to get your rig mud capable? Say you wanna go to LA and do some mudbogs and hit the local mud trails...
Im going to a ramsey challenge that is supposed to be 98% mud so I wanna get the CJ ready, even if that means regearing or getting a different size of tires.
Im running a 350H0, 4.11s and 38.5Sx, D60s, Atlas II and Sm420. SOA with Rancho 9012s...
Any help will be appreciated!
Jesus Chio
www.alloffroad.com
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63285 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 0:35pm
Subject: RE: United Association
Mike....good idea. Count me in!
I'll volunteer to collect any donations for United on the 6:30AM run. Heck....I am going to charge everyone $2 anyways! (that was what Hackle told me to do so we would have enough $$ to get something cold to drink after the run was over!) LOL
Stu
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@AzChatfield.net]
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 11:30 AM
To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [az_vjc] United Association
All,
Sandee has informed me that it is possible for the AzVJC to join United as an association. A minimum of $50 is needed for this to happen -- Ideally we want to send $100 or more.
With association, we get to send 2 Delegates to United's yearly meeting (next year's meeting is in Flagstaff); so we'd need some nominations and a vote.
If someone would like to volunteer to collect money at Crown King this weekend that would be great (or I can do it if no one volunteers). Also I'd like to have a PayPal account set up so that those not participating in this weekend's events can donate.
This is a voluntary donation! If we receive more than we need, then we'll hold a vote to determine what to do with the extra.
ALSO! We'll be receiving an electronic version of the newsletter, which I will put online for everyone to download -- or I will e-mail it to those interested.
Thanks,
Mike Chatfield
Programmer/Analyst
Pegasus Solutions
(602) 861-7686
mike.chatfield@pegs.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
63286 From: FredTJ <fredtj@c...>
Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 0:34pm
Subject: Re: Cruise control for '98
Why do you think that you have to change the steering wheel ?
A friend, here in Tucson, just recently added cruise to his '98 TJ with
factory swtiches. No problems, no changes, etc.
Best,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: "cottage5360" <W3VET@a...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:16 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Cruise control for '98
> I want to add cruise control to a '98 Wrangler 5-speed 6cyl.
> I guess I need to change steering wheels.(Airbag)
>
> Is there an aftermarket model with a little shaft like the GM style
> that can be rigged up?
>
> Has anyone here done anything like this?
> TIA
> Sharyl
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>