HELP ME understand why this happened.

[SFCMPCJ7]

I fell right into the Jeep thing or should I say the Jeep thing fell right into me or on my lawn rather.
Yes, an almost perfect Jeep fell into my hands, for free.
Since I knew no better I invested almost $4000 dollars into my new project, I was now on the road to being a JEEP enthusiast.
What happened to me?
My suspension lift and tires worked out well, but the work I had done at a local shop sent me to my Jeep death. (CJ7 gone :()
I don’t have the money to allow persons to experiment at my expense, but since I wanted to remain faithful to the JEEP COMMUNITY I took a chance and well, that’s where it all went wrong.
My troubles lay with what should I do now?
Avoid the issue, or air it to everyone to see what you all think about what I should do.:confused:
If enough of you care to listen I will post the e-mail interactions between me and the shop.
Thanks for understanding my situation and maybe your reply’s will keep me within the communities and truly one day back on the trails assisting you where I can.
V/R
The SFC

[terron gregg]

im down to listen to what shop did what im currently looking at a shop to do some work want to know if its that one . so whats up.

[lancetkenyon]

Try some PMs first, to the people that respond here. PM sent. Might be an honest mistake, or you might not understand how big a certain undertaking really is.

[AZLugz]

Living in Mesa, take it to Desert Fab

[lancetkenyon]

What the heck, post it up. If the accused is on here, might give them a chance to explain. If not, might save someone else a ton of misery.

[Fire Ball]

Sounds like the shop he used didn't pack the rear brg on the model 20. OOPS, that isn't right :eek:

I'll let him post up all the details, sounds like there are a couple problems going on.

[AZLugz]

Yea, we have posted good n bad about most places here!!!!

[desertfabmotors]

I need to set things straight here. Before it gets out of hand here.

This is the situation.

This Jeep was left in front of Kevins house with a broken axle.
He dropped the jeep off at the shop. We put one piece axles in it, and yes I packed grease in the bearings. I drove the jeep about 20 miles, noticed a little growel, sounded llikre the tranny.
He took the jeep, Get a call the jeep quit moving, I go check it out and find upper pinion bearing was froze, I pay to have the Jeep towed to the shop and open up the rear end. It was full of oil but was really nasty. The ring and pinion had really bad wear pattern. I tell him needs a new R&P and Bearings. I replace everything and test drive.
Weeks later he comes in, with one axle in hand with a bad bearing. I thought that was strange because it was the tapered bearing not the roller bearing.
Anyway, I warrenty'd the bearing kit, and pressed the bearing on the axle at no charge. He took it home and installed it!!
Weeks later I get a call saying another bearing went out and he was in Show Low. The shop up there tells me I set the gears wrong and that is why the axle bearing went out. I told him that is not the case, if gears were set wrong this would not take out a axle bearing. I told him that a bent housing would cause this.
Anyway, Kevin brought me the housing, and I checked the housing and the axle tube was bent on the side were the bearing keeps going bad.
I told Kevin that the housing is bent and needs a new housing. I tried to locate a housing for him, but AMC 20 housings are getting scarce.

I would be happy to take care of any wrong doing with this situation, but Desertfab has done nothing wrong.
We did not install the axle shaft except for the first time. We do not know if preload was set correct on the axle bearings ect. I know when I installed the kit the first time it was correct.
Bent axle housings are common with AMC 20's

I have offered, if Kevin finds another housing, I would do the install for N/C


Personally this is nobody's business but mine and Kevins, but I am clearing the air. This will be the only time I will talk about this.

Thanks for your time

Todd

[AZLugz]

Hmmmm, sounds pretty stand up to me.

[SHNIPE]

I told him that a bent housing would cause this.
Todd

First thing i immediately thought of. Doesnt sound like youre getting screwed although your wallet might feel like it is. There are hundreds of bent 20's around the net Heres one.
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p133/VTJeepCJ84/DSC00900.jpg (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=627904)
And the caption fromthe picture "After starting it in gear and the throttle being stuck at WOT and hitting the house this is the results"

Sounds to me like Todd has fulfilled his end and youre doing your best to get as much out of a shop as you can because it just plain sucks. I say cut the losses and get a new axle and call it learning or sell the jeep.

[Jdemonto@Airpark Jeep Sales]

I would say Desertfab is standup all the way! When dealing with old Jeeps or any jeep that has been owned by someone else, you just don't know how they treated or maintained the vehicle and thats a risk you take....I would just throw a different axle under it and call it a day....


.02


Jason

[SFCMPCJ7]

Since this is now going in a direction, here is the e-mail I wrote to Desert Fab on Fri 11/2/2007 8:16 AM. It explains further to them the issues I had and why I was in the situation I was in.
I have envolved numerous people in this adventure and have had many eyes on this.
Here are the e-mails I sent to Desert Fab.


From: Carpenter, Kevin NGAZ
Sent: Fri 11/2/2007 8:16 AM
To: dave@desertfab.com
Subject: FW: Forwarding all



Here is the ad from craigslist itself if you still need it.

Reply to: sale-460269340@craigslist.org
Date: 2007-10-26, 8:33AM MST


Model 20 rear axle out of a 1979 CJ-7, rebuilt 2 yes ago with 3.54 gears, Full Spool, and superior one piece axle shafts.. this rear axle is narrow track width and just about bullet proof....I have recently swapped out my axles for wider dana 44 axles and my wife says this has to go. $make offer. I also have the front dana 30 axle if interested. call me at 928-246-4073 Richard


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Carpenter, Kevin NGAZ
Sent: Wed 10/31/2007 1:00 PM
To: dave@desertfab.com
Subject: Forwarding all


Just in case you did not receive one of the e-mails I have sent out, here they all are.




Todd, I am again out of State.

I am wondering where we are at with the rear end. I just wanted to explain that I have spent almost $2000 since the install of my $350 Solid rear end was placed into the Dana 20 on my jeep in your shop and have had several problems with the products that have been installed. No one is placing blame, I myself am no expert, but I am becoming one surely from all the experiences and research into the issues I have had with that damn Jeep.
Timpkin bearing company states the lubricant on the bearings as shipped is only a preservative and not be thought as grease, and that the bearings need to be packed with grease before being pressed and installation. What I understood from you is that the bearings in my 1979 CJ7 short axle, did not require this grease, but were oiled by the fluid from my differental. From what I have researched this is wrong.
After having the mechanic brake down the rear end up in pine, there was several things that were noticed besides this.
The excessive crowing of the brake backing plates that after being attached bent the seals.
The pressed bearing on right was not pressed on all the way.
There was only one thin shim on both outer seals for the type of bearing involved there possibly should have been more shims to balance the tapered bearing and length of the one piece axles.
The backlash on the ring and pinion was more than 2/3 more than what it should have been when it was installed. 13th thousands??
I am being told that with all of the secondary issues just discussed, that these were a large part of where my problems came from.
Honestly, I could have, with the money I have spend in parts, tows, replacement of the standard ring and pinion, fluids, break backing plate, and other shop fees purchased a pretty kick *** rear end for that jeep.
As it is, I have nothing salvageable expect a stock size ring and pinion, and a right brake backing plate as I have stated before.
After speaking to you when I picked up the rear end week before last, you said that you were able to take out the ring and pinion and shimes and manufacture a tube to check to see if the tubes were strait on the dana 20.
You stated the rear end was bent on the left side by a quarter of an inch. When I picked it up from your shop to take up to Pine, the rear end was completly reinstalled as it was when I dropped it off, even the inner seal was put back in place on the right side.

The rear end that I found for you would work without any doubt. I was just wondering if you were going to help me with this or if I should consider all services and parts a wash from your shop and start over with another shop.

Let me know, It has been 2.5 months and I don't have a clue as to what is going on.
Kevin






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Carpenter, Kevin NGAZ
Sent: Fri 10/26/2007 10:32 PM
To: 'dave@desertfab.com'
Subject: The wheels on the Jeep go round and oops, it fell off :)


Not sure if you received this or not from the 18th. So I am sending again today.
Were you able to get in touch with Richard, Number is 928-246-4073, that has the short track (one piece axel kit installed) rear end for my CJ7? I have to go out of town again, more Army training..I will be back in town after the 15th of Nov.
If you are able to get the rear end, my friend can pick it up, his number is 602-750-2456 JOSHUA

-----Original Message-----
From: Carpenter, Kevin NGAZ
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 2:59 PM
To: 'Dave@desertfab.com'
Subject: RE: Short track CJ7 Rear end

I think total parts and labor I have spent $1500 into a one piece axel kit, ring and pinion with bearing and new dif fluids of my CJ7 from your shop.
I have paid outside of your shop for:
*A flatbed tow from Apache Junction home the first time I took the jeep out(Right bearing burnt up) $50.00 *Took a month to find and purchase a passenger side brake backing plate(replace damaged plate). $50.00 *Dif fluid $7.00 *A flatbed tow from Prescott to Pine at 10 o'clock at night second time I took the jeep out. $100.00 *Tear down and inspection of rear end by Jeep mechanic in Pinetop Lakeside. $200.00 *Overnighted a Timpkin bearing kit on a Saturday (thinking only bearing issue)$190.00 *Continued storage of Jeep in Pinetop This on top of everything else the amount of my free time I lost, but I am out of money, and the only usable part left of the rear end of my Jeep is the right brake backing plate, right bearing/race and ring and pinion. The housing was damaged and the spider gears are not working.

So as you can see I have made every attempt to allow your shop to have the decisions on how to take care of me and my jeep without pointing a finger. Like I said , I am out of money and have to remove the jeep from the shop where it has sat for two months.
I would like to just go pick up the axel from Richard and head up to Pine tomorrow and fix this issue.
Thanks for listening.[/I][/I]

[SFCMPCJ7]

This e-mail was sent to me from Desert Fab explaining what they feel happened.



From TODD MCCULLEN <desertfab@msn.com>
Date Tuesday, November 6, 2007 19:30
To kevin.j.carpenter@us.army.mil


Kevin,

First, You brought the jeep in with a broken axle, we put in a one piece
kit. We never had to take the cover off to do this. You had a pinion
bearing go bad with took out he R&P.
I have been doing gears for over 20 years, 13 thousands BackLash, I never
set backlash at that, but this would have nothing to do with a axle bearing
going bad.

A axle bearing went bad, which thought was strange I replaced it. at N/C ,
since you have had another bearing go bad, The most common problem that
causes this is a bent housing. I pulled the carrier out to check this and I
reinstalled the carrier. This is not a fault of ours, More than likely it
was beent from the beginning. This is a common problem with AMC 20's

Second we never installed the axle when the bearing was replaced by you.
When we installed it the first time I know the preload on the bearings were
with in spec.

If you find a new rear end, I will install it and check it at know charge to
help you out.


Todd

[SHNIPE]

so wheres the problem? I see that they told you exactly what the problem was and youre trying to squeeze them for parts that they didnt touch

[YJunk]

Duuuuude... come on. You got the rig for free; Todd has gone out of his way to make it right, what is it exactly that you want. You're rig is just like the rest of ours... its JUNK... and there is always more wrong with it than what you are having fixed. There is a reason the turd was abandoned in front of your house and its not because you're a nice guy (which I'm sure you are). Too many of us have had good work done at Todd's, you're going to have a hard time getting much sympathy here.

If you're not comfortable with Todds work then might I suggest Desert Rat... when they get done screwing ya, you'll be sending flowers to Todd asking him out on another date.

[sunroom2004]

This e-mail was sent to me from Desert Fab explaining what they feel happened.

...
If you find a new rear end, I will install it and check it at know charge to
help you out.

Todd[/I]

Todd even offered to install a new rear end at no charge...I think that shows they are trying to take care of the customer.

IMHO this goes beyond the call of duty and it's the same reason I'll always take my junk down to Todd and Dave!

Just my $0.02...

[SHNIPE]

Todd even offered to install a new rear end at no charge...I think that shows they are trying to take care of the customer.

IMHO this goes beyond the call of duty and it's the same reason I'll always take my junk down to Todd and Dave!

Just my $0.02...

and just cause he said he would INSTALL AND CHECK it at no charge doesnt mean he was saying hed buy the damn thing for you too. :rolleyes:

[AZLugz]

If you're not comfortable with Todds work then might I suggest Desert Rat... when they get done screwing ya, you'll be sending flowers to Todd asking him out on another date.



C'Mon Junkie, don't pull the punches man, tell us how you really feel!!! :D

[SFCMPCJ7]

I wanted to break down the e-mail that was sent out by Desert Fab.
This is the situation.

This Jeep was left in front of Kevins house with a broken axle.
He dropped the jeep off at the shop. We put one piece axles in it, and yes I packed grease in the bearings.

This is not the case. The bearings were not packed with grease either time. The shaft and bearing that I dropped off with Desert Fab after the initial failure on the right side that was replaced was not greased either. I specifically asked my wife to ask that question when she picked up the parts, and again we were told “no”. I did my research on the AMC 20 and I did press in the right grease before reinstalling. Which brings me to both brake backing plates; both plates were crowned which then bent my seals which lead to leakage.



I drove the jeep about 20 miles, noticed a little growel, sounded llikre the tranny.
He took the jeep, Get a call the jeep quit moving,


I left the shop and drove one mile when the rear end started whining then screaming and then all of a sudden it made a horrible grinding noise and I thought the rear end exploded and fell off but it just kept grinding until I came to a halt. The Differential was smoking hot! I called the shop and left the jeep in place, the shop said they had a flat bed and would come get it for me.


I go check it out and find upper pinion bearing was froze, I pay to have the Jeep towed to the shop and open up the rear end. It was full of oil but was really nasty. The ring and pinion had really bad wear pattern.


This is not the case either, I was told that the upper pinion bearings fell into the ring and pinion, tearing it all apart and that is why it had to be replaced. The same size R&P were purchased for my AMC 20.



I tell him needs a new R&P and Bearings. I replace everything and test drive.
Weeks later he comes in, with one axle in hand with a bad bearing. I thought that was strange because it was the tapered bearing not the roller bearing.


I don’t understand why it would be strange, your shop installed it.

Anyway, I warrenty'd the bearing kit, and pressed the bearing on the axle at no charge. He took it home and installed it!!
Weeks later I get a call saying another bearing went out and he was in Show Low. The shop up there tells me I set the gears wrong and that is why the axle bearing went out. I told him that is not the case, if gears were set wrong this would not take out a axle bearing. I told him that a bent housing would cause this.

The R&P were obviously not the reason I had a massive failure to the rear end. It was only mentioned because once the R&P is calibrated it’s not going to move. It was noted that the R&P was 2/3 over what it should have been set at and it was not meeting together correctly. In other words, poor installation.
If the axel housing was bent, wouldn’t it be awful hard to install a one piece axel kit anyway? And if everything was bent and abused like the shop discussed, why would an installation take place?


Anyway, Kevin brought me the housing, and I checked the housing and the axle tube was bent on the side were the bearing keeps going bad.

The passenger side bearing burnt out first. If the left side of the housing was bent why did the bearing on right burn up first? The housing that I gave Desert Fab was not torn apart but was rodded for accuracy and then completly reinstalled before returning it to me, including the inner seals.

I told Kevin that the housing is bent and needs a new housing. I tried to locate a housing for him, but AMC 20 housings are getting scarce.


I decided to go online and research two places, Craigslist and AZ Virtual Jeep club. In 10 minutes I had found two AMC 20’s in what Desert Fab had a month to do with no success.


I would be happy to take care of any wrong doing with this situation, but Desertfab has done nothing wrong.
We did not install the axle shaft except for the first time. We do not know if preload was set correct on the axle bearings ect. I know when I installed the kit the first time it was correct.
Bent axle housings are common with AMC 20's

If the tubes are commonly bent, shouldn’t the housing have been checked before the installation to make sure that installing new parts in a bad housing would not jeopardize ones credibility to their experience in this area?


I have offered, if Kevin finds another housing, I would do the install for N/C



Personally this is nobody's business but mine and Kevins, but I am clearing the air. This will be the only time I will talk about this.

There shouldnt be an issue with anyone discussing right or wrong on on this website.
I would like to thank everyone that has written to me and talked to me about theyre expericnces.

If it was not for other experienced Jeepers telling me what was wrong and right , I would not have gone to this extent, but from what I have learned in a short time is telling me everything about this installation is wrong. Either the AMC 20 was bent and nothing should have been installed or when the parts were installed, all of the supporting parts needed to also be in working order, which they were not, either from installation specs or being warped.

Please understand I am new to the world of the Jeep. I kept patience until it became clear after the rear end was exposed and every portion of the installation was shown to me from text book what had gone wrong and how every small installation issue combined into the ultimate complete failure that could have taken my life not 10 minutes prior on a freeway.

[AZLugz]

I am really sorry you are having this issue and sorry that you have to spend so much to fix it, but I find it really hard to believe that Todd did these things wrong. You are relying on one shop that is charging you money to tell you bad things about another shop.

Tod has been dooing this for many years and he is good, damn good, I know. I have watched him work, I can not set up a diff and therefore had him do mine, but in 9 years as a crew chief and part of them in NASCAR lower lines, I have watched a lot of setups and learned about them from some pretty impressive mechanics, when I went looking to get mine done, I went to someone that I had watched do the work. He has also be in Comp buggies for a while and doing his own work, he prolly would not have made it far with the kind of work you are describing. Lastly, they carry a very good rep here for good reliable work, that is hard to achieve and easy to loose, I can not see them taking the chance on loosing that rep on one cheap axle especially after they already did some of the work on gratis, business is too competitive these days to risk it on small stuff.


I am not saying you are lying, but maybe the other shop is not correct in their assumptions and are leading you a stray. At least consider it

[Cave Gimp]

You have at least a 20 year old vehicle that the history is unknown, at least on this board, maybe even to you. How was it treated before you got it? Wheeled hard? Sat in a garage? Why was someone so willing to give you the CJ7? Did they know it was damaged? Did they wheel it hard? There could be tons of things wrong with the Jeep. I'm sure the A/C and cruise control don't work too well, but is that Todd's fault for not checking? (OK, I'm a TJ guy, I like my creature comforts :) )

You took it to a good shop. Sounds like they did a lot for you after the problem happened. Did you ask them to check the AMC 20 to see if it was bent, or even to do a once over on the whole thing to look for common stuff, or did you just drop it off and ask for a new shaft? It sucks when stuff breaks and the new stuff you just put on is getting chewed up because the other parts are bad. Its a 20+ old vehicle that is typically used very hard. I'm sure there is a lot more wrong with it besides the rear end.

If you just asked Todd to replace the shaft, then you got what you asked for. If you wanted him to inspect the whole rear end, because it already broke one shaft, you should have asked. If you did clearly ask and he didn't check I would say shame on him, otherwise DB did exactly what you asked them to do.

Remember, JEEP means:
Just
Empty
Every
Pocket

[YJunk]

C'Mon Junkie, don't pull the punches man, tell us how you really feel!!! :D

hahahaha.. Lugz do I need some more sensitivity training??? LOL

[YJunk]

I wanted to break down the e-mail that was sent out by Desert Fab.
This is the situation.

This Jeep was left in front of Kevins house with a broken axle.
He dropped the jeep off at the shop. We put one piece axles in it, and yes I packed grease in the bearings.

This is not the case. The bearings were not packed with grease either time. The shaft and bearing that I dropped off with Desert Fab after the initial failure on the right side that was replaced was not greased either. I specifically asked my wife to ask that question when she picked up the parts, and again we were told “no”. I did my research on the AMC 20 and I did press in the right grease before reinstalling. Which brings me to both brake backing plates; both plates were crowned which then bent my seals which lead to leakage.



I drove the jeep about 20 miles, noticed a little growel, sounded llikre the tranny.
He took the jeep, Get a call the jeep quit moving,


I left the shop and drove one mile when the rear end started whining then screaming and then all of a sudden it made a horrible grinding noise and I thought the rear end exploded and fell off but it just kept grinding until I came to a halt. The Differential was smoking hot! I called the shop and left the jeep in place, the shop said they had a flat bed and would come get it for me.


I go check it out and find upper pinion bearing was froze, I pay to have the Jeep towed to the shop and open up the rear end. It was full of oil but was really nasty. The ring and pinion had really bad wear pattern.


This is not the case either, I was told that the upper pinion bearings fell into the ring and pinion, tearing it all apart and that is why it had to be replaced. The same size R&P were purchased for my AMC 20.



I tell him needs a new R&P and Bearings. I replace everything and test drive.
Weeks later he comes in, with one axle in hand with a bad bearing. I thought that was strange because it was the tapered bearing not the roller bearing.


I don’t understand why it would be strange, your shop installed it.

Anyway, I warrenty'd the bearing kit, and pressed the bearing on the axle at no charge. He took it home and installed it!!
Weeks later I get a call saying another bearing went out and he was in Show Low. The shop up there tells me I set the gears wrong and that is why the axle bearing went out. I told him that is not the case, if gears were set wrong this would not take out a axle bearing. I told him that a bent housing would cause this.

The R&P were obviously not the reason I had a massive failure to the rear end. It was only mentioned because once the R&P is calibrated it’s not going to move. It was noted that the R&P was 2/3 over what it should have been set at and it was not meeting together correctly. In other words, poor installation.
If the axel housing was bent, wouldn’t it be awful hard to install a one piece axel kit anyway? And if everything was bent and abused like the shop discussed, why would an installation take place?


Anyway, Kevin brought me the housing, and I checked the housing and the axle tube was bent on the side were the bearing keeps going bad.

The passenger side bearing burnt out first. If the left side of the housing was bent why did the bearing on right burn up first? The housing that I gave Desert Fab was not torn apart but was rodded for accuracy and then completly reinstalled before returning it to me, including the inner seals.

I told Kevin that the housing is bent and needs a new housing. I tried to locate a housing for him, but AMC 20 housings are getting scarce.


I decided to go online and research two places, Craigslist and AZ Virtual Jeep club. In 10 minutes I had found two AMC 20’s in what Desert Fab had a month to do with no success.


I would be happy to take care of any wrong doing with this situation, but Desertfab has done nothing wrong.
We did not install the axle shaft except for the first time. We do not know if preload was set correct on the axle bearings ect. I know when I installed the kit the first time it was correct.
Bent axle housings are common with AMC 20's

If the tubes are commonly bent, shouldn’t the housing have been checked before the installation to make sure that installing new parts in a bad housing would not jeopardize ones credibility to their experience in this area?


I have offered, if Kevin finds another housing, I would do the install for N/C



Personally this is nobody's business but mine and Kevins, but I am clearing the air. This will be the only time I will talk about this.

There shouldnt be an issue with anyone discussing right or wrong on on this website.
I would like to thank everyone that has written to me and talked to me about theyre expericnces.

If it was not for other experienced Jeepers telling me what was wrong and right , I would not have gone to this extent, but from what I have learned in a short time is telling me everything about this installation is wrong. Either the AMC 20 was bent and nothing should have been installed or when the parts were installed, all of the supporting parts needed to also be in working order, which they were not, either from installation specs or being warped.

Please understand I am new to the world of the Jeep. I kept patience until it became clear after the rear end was exposed and every portion of the installation was shown to me from text book what had gone wrong and how every small installation issue combined into the ultimate complete failure that could have taken my life not 10 minutes prior on a freeway.

You know, you've said your piece and sometimes getting it off your breast, err I mean chest is a good thing (we're all Nancy's now and then). I'm still not clear what it is you want Todd to do, but I think he's indicated if you find another rear he'll put it in for you... Given the support he has here I don't think many folk will stop using him, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion and no one here is going to hold it against you (unless of course you turn it into some kind of crazy flame war).

There are plenty of people here (Jason D from Airpark) who have had great experiences with Desert Rat... I'd rather fart lit firecrackers than even look at their shop. This is the nature of the business and there are a bunch of shops out here that will take care of you if DF isn't going to be your cup of tea.

I'm pretty sure this has the making of a good poll but I'm not gonna be the one to put it up there... :D

[SFCMPCJ7]

Why yes, I do feel better getting this off my Chest (brest):p! LOL

One of the other guys posted that I should have asked for Desert Fab to check the rear end before making an install. Why would I ask that?
The stock shaft was stripped and spinning.
How would I know what needed to go in the rear end?
I towed it to Desert fab and said now what??
You can replace, or you can go with a one peice axel.
I went with the one peice axel.
Did I force anyone to install the parts, did I make the descision weather the rear end hd to be strait or bent? No, that's not up to me.
If you have the responsability to take something new, and put it in something old...wouldnt you want to make sure the old parts worked first??
You know, the old parts didnt break..the new parts broke, which tells me either the person installing the parts put them in improperly or they should have never been installed in the first place...Am I right or wrong?

I need nothing more than to make my situation a learning experiance for everyone. :)
Again, Thank you
V/R
Kevin

[macinyart]

I need nothing more than to make my situation a learning experiance for everyone. :)
Again, Thank you
V/R
Kevin

I've watched this thread as I am sure many have. Right up until this sentence I was wondering how it would all work out. I think this particular sentence is a bit ingenuous and I think it would be good mental health for you to step back a bit and think carefully what it would take to satisfy you with your jeep. Make it clear, post it up and see what happens. You might be surprised. Todd and his crew have a really good rep around the Phoenix metro area and their responses to bad things going on has made that reputation. Everyone around here hates it when things don't go the way we want and you have a lot of sympathy for your plight, but to say that the "only thing you want is to make this a learning experience for everyone" makes me think you are more interested in slamming DesertFab than getting your jeep fixed up to run. So post up what you think would make it all good. Good luck.:)

[SFCMPCJ7]

Hi Jack, Thank you for your reply and understanding.
I am a little PO'd, yes, I truly am. I have to admit.
But after several e-mails to DF, with no responses, I can see that I am going to get no where.

I still have the rear end, and can have it checked by a mechanic shop to verify its flaws, that I will pay to have done and post the results with pictures on a fresh post.

I don't believe a Timken bearing just burns up by itself, much less 2 bearings within 400 miles.

Supporting plate on the rear end that held everything in, the brake backing plates, made of metal, were crowned (bent) and deformed the outer seals made cheaper metal.

The statement by Glen (hope you don’t mind I quoted you) “Did you ask them to check the AMC 20 to see if it was bent, or even to do a once over on the whole thing to look for common stuff, or did you just drop it off and ask for a new shaft?”
I don't agree that I should have to ask any service provider or a certified mechanic to inspect something before he installs into it, to make sure it will work afterwards. I was given a couple options, the one piece being my favorite, because I could have supported the rear end with a brace or welds, but primarily I know that I don’t have enough experience to rock crawl the Jeep to build up into a dana 44 at this point in time so why go that route?

I am curious like I said way back in my first e-mail, as to the replies and information I can obtain from this. I have lost the Jeep, but not the experience that I am getting from being involved in these discussions along with everyone else.

We know we won’t all agree, but at least we can get something from the total knowledge base we all bring to the table right?

[SEDONA RICK]

Duuuuude... you'll be sending flowers to Todd asking him out on another date.

I HAVEN'T HAD MY FIRST DATE WITH TODD. WILL FLOWERS DO IT OR DO I NEED TO SEND CANDY TOO:rolleyes: BECAUSE I'M DUE FOR A REALLY GOOD SCREWING:D

[cruiserjim]

I think everyone feels for you,thats alot of money pissed away.It just seems Todd has went above and beyond.Personally,I dont think it makes sense to spend any money on a amc 20 or dana 35.Changing the fluid is more money than they are worth.

[Digger]

my 2 cents, for what it's worth. Desertfab has some of the best people to do business with. Their workmanship record is excellent, the guys have been very nice in answering questions for me and without the pressure of "salesman tactics" (sorry couldn't think of a better way to phrase it). I myself would consider the fact that these guys know the short history of the jeep, and taking it somewhere else would be taking 2 steps back. Sounds like they want to do right by you man.

[Stoodty]

lol, this is funny! glad they have good support! but i know how he feels, me and my wallet have first hand Experience with them to! i just wish i had the luck(workmanship/service) all you supporters had! anyways sorry about the issue's! hope it all works out! but as far as you learning anything from this.......................... next time take it to Joe @ absolute off road :)

[YJunk]

I HAVEN'T HAD MY FIRST DATE WITH TODD. WILL FLOWERS DO IT OR DO I NEED TO SEND CANDY TOO:rolleyes: BECAUSE I'M DUE FOR A REALLY GOOD SCREWING:D

LOL... Yeah you might want to take some candy too... I hear you're doing one of them there custome D44 things... You KNOW thats gonna hurt.

[rosshh]

Let me start by saying I know no one involved and Im not too smart :confused:. But it sounds like your housing was tweaked..... it would of been nice if desertfab would of noticed this before you invested the cash but they did not. Is it their fault you got a bum housing... no. So chalk it up as a learning experience and move on. No need to call them out. JMO

[macinyart]

Hi Jack, Thank you for your reply and understanding.
I am a little PO'd, yes, I truly am. I have to admit.
But after several e-mails to DF, with no responses, I can see that I am going to get no where.

I still have the rear end, and can have it checked by a mechanic shop to verify its flaws, that I will pay to have done and post the results with pictures on a fresh post.

I don't believe a Timken bearing just burns up by itself, much less 2 bearings within 400 miles.

Supporting plate on the rear end that held everything in, the brake backing plates, made of metal, were crowned (bent) and deformed the outer seals made cheaper metal.

The statement by Glen (hope you don’t mind I quoted you) “Did you ask them to check the AMC 20 to see if it was bent, or even to do a once over on the whole thing to look for common stuff, or did you just drop it off and ask for a new shaft?”
I don't agree that I should have to ask any service provider or a certified mechanic to inspect something before he installs into it, to make sure it will work afterwards. I was given a couple options, the one piece being my favorite, because I could have supported the rear end with a brace or welds, but primarily I know that I don’t have enough experience to rock crawl the Jeep to build up into a dana 44 at this point in time so why go that route?

I am curious like I said way back in my first e-mail, as to the replies and information I can obtain from this. I have lost the Jeep, but not the experience that I am getting from being involved in these discussions along with everyone else.

We know we won’t all agree, but at least we can get something from the total knowledge base we all bring to the table right?

OK, I read you loud and clear. But you still haven't told us what would make you whole. What do you think DF should do, what do you think any of the accomplished wrenchers on the board should do? I think most of us here would do something to help given the chance and if it is within their capabilities. Unfortunately I am NOT a mechanic. Perhaps if you can get past your anger you can still have a jeep in running order. Again, good luck. :)

[mysunnshine]

I think DF is doing quite a bit tward helping repair somthing that had prior damage. Though every tweeked housing that I have ever dealt with, it was easily apparent that it had issues when the axle shaft bearing would not center with the axle housing after the splines were installed in the carrier. If the bearing needed to be forced into the housing, then further inspection would be needed.

[Desert Dweller]

I am an FNG and I haven't had any work done on my stock TJ yet. When I do, Desert Fab will be on the top of my list of places to go just because of the way the owner handled the issue. He went way above and beyond what I would expect and I am pretty demanding.

[Moriarty]

Here is my thread on my Desert Fab issues.

http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?t=26417

Cut your losses and call Joe @ Absolute Offroad. Regardless of whether or not Desert Fab did you wrong, you obviously aren't going to trust the work. Hell they could give you a free rebuilt D44 and I think you would still question if it was installed correctly. :(

As you may have already noticed:rolleyes: Desert Fab has a lot of support here. And while my experience with them also went south they are supported because of previous good work on other peoples junk. As my other thread stated, no one will please everyone everytime.

This is a lose-lose. While Todd may have messed up and/or lacked a proper diagnosis of housing before spending your money only your axle knows the truth, so again move on. I will say that you could of got a used D44 well built with a locker from another shop for that $2K. And if its been said that AMC 20
is junk and this happens all the time, why wasn't the 44 upgrade offered. You certainly spent the money!

Aww f-it, I am done. I feel my bitterness coming back.
I am outta here.

[crgeorge]

I'm sorry, I just have to laugh. I really don't understand how this thread got this long! Obviously, guys, SFCMPCJ7 is just not hearing anything you've said. He's still a little miffed that his FREE jeep is gonna cost him a couple bucks. I've never met Todd, but he sounds like a stand up guy and frankly, I would wash my hands clean of SFCMPCJ7, tell him to pick up his jeep, apologize, and say, "I can't do anything else for you. You're obviously not happy, I've broken my hips bending over backwards for you!" I can't say anything else, everyone else has done a fantastic job!!

[Moriarty]

[QUOTE=crgeorge;249867]I'm sorry, I just have to laugh. I really don't understand how this thread got this long! Obviously, guys, SFCMPCJ7 is just not hearing anything you've said. He's still a little miffed that his FREE jeep is gonna cost him a couple bucks.QUOTE]

His Jeep being free should have nothing to do with this. Its the work in question, and the price paid for the work, not the Jeep. The CJ could be a pile, but after spending $2K, the axle shouldn't be. If SFCMPCJ7 needs to GET anything, its that a FREE CJ-7 could easily become a $10K CJ-7 if you need to pay to have work done to it. If you don't have a decently "flexible" bank account, the CJ should go and if you want to wheel, pay as you go on a 07 JK Rubicon. I almost went that route after my dealings with DF, and now that I have a great running/driving/wheeling CJ I am glad I didn't. But, I have gone to my bank and opened a seperate money market account purely for "CJ SAVINGS". :D

[Allen]

Hi SFCMPCJ7

I can understand your delema. I have a Jeep with a d35 rear axle and they are also pretty weak.

I understand that you have spent a bunch of cash on getting your axle built and to have it all go down the drain would surely make anyone upset.

I also know, being into jeeps for 30 years now, that $hit happens! I'm sure that you wish Desert Fab had noticed a bent tube before your buildup. I'm sure that Todd wishes he'd seen it before the buildup! But here we are now... after the buildup we find other problems with the axle, and your Jeep is broke!

Is it Desert Fabs fault that it's bent? No! How could it be?

Is it Todds fault he didnt see it before? No! While it would have been nice to discover the bent tube, it's not always possible to see with just a visual inspection. I'm no expert on the D20 but it seems that the axle job he did didn't require him to pull the axle and bench it, so it remained under your jeep the whole time, where seeing a bent tube is not that easy!

Does he understand how you feel? I think he does! Nobody likes to hear that the rig they just worked on is busted again! He did say he would be glad to help you put another axle in your jeep! Thats a lot more than most places would do!

Anger can only make your problems worse, and that what I read in your posts, that you are mad because he didnt know your axle was bent! Your going to make matters worse by hurting relationships. You cant possibly expect him to give you a new axle!

Bearings not being lubed??? I dont think that anyone could say for sure that a bearing was not lubed when it was installed! They are just guessing baised on the fact that it's a new bearing! I worked as an industrial mechanic for 15 years and I can tell you I've seen new bearings fail in 2 weeks, and they were destroyed! I had installed them myself and knew they were not only properly lubed, but getting lubed by the system too! No way could someone tell you what they looked like a week prior to failure, but I did find the cause and was able to get everything to hold together eventually! It turned out to be a nut that was cracked!

You should calm down and take a good hard look at the facts!

Your axles bent
Somthing about your axle is responsable for the further failures.
Todd is trying to be understanding, but he wont be blamed.
We here are willing to help in any way we can. Wrenching, helping to find parts....whatever we can do!


Jeeping is a rather simple sport!

You wheel!
You break!
You wrench!
You have a beer!
You do it again!
You make friends!
You get better!
You upgrade!
You wheel!
You break!
You wrench!
You have a beer!
You do it again!


And somewhere in there you will flop or roll or dent or rip or sink or....

... but that is what we do!


I hope you get this sorted out, and feel better!

[Wayco]

What a great post Allen,

You wheel!
You break!
You wrench!
You have a beer!
You do it again!
You make friends!
You get better!
You upgrade!
You wheel!
You break!
You wrench!
You have a beer!
You do it again!

If the originator of this thread really wants to UNDERSTAND, here you go. :)
I still would like to hear your response to Macinyart, what would make you happy? You seem like you want this issue resolved, but are stuck on finding blame. There are plenty of wheelers here who would give you a hand, but not if you just want to convict a forum sponsor! As you can see, there will be no help for that.

[jeeper05]

Being a forum sponsor does not make you immune to conviction as no body is perfect. AS I have seen a few things two make me wonder. Wayne let me ask you this would you remove a tool from someones Jeep that you have never met nor asked permission from to use said tool and what would you think of a person that would do that. This ? iisnt just for Wayne everyone is welcome to voice a opinion

[Moriarty]

Being a forum sponsor does not make you immune to conviction as no body is perfect. AS I have seen a few things two make me wonder. Wayne let me ask you this would you remove a tool from someones Jeep that you have never met nor asked permission from to use said tool and what would you think of a person that would do that. This ? iisnt just for Wayne everyone is welcome to voice a opinion

I'll chime in but I don't understand the the relationship to this thread. Did a shop steal a tool from you? The answer would be that anyone taking said tool or anything out of my CJ without my permission would be called a thief, and said thief better be bulletproof, especially if they are anywhere on my property line.

[ademster]

Hey Kevin, I sold you the AMC-20 Axle last month right?

haha

Anyhow...

Sucks to hear what happened...

Did they install the new diff you got from me?




LET ME CLARIFY... I SOLD HIM AN AXLE AFTER HE FOUND OUT HIS WAS BENT, I AM THE ONE HE FOUND HERE ON AZVJC AND CRAIGSLIST...

HE TOLD ME THE WHOLE STORY ( BTW HE HAS A NICE TOYOTA FOR SALE )

I SOLS HIM THE BARE DIFF WITH A TRAC-LOC CARRIER FOR $20.00 SO DESERT FAB CAN REPLACE IT OR SOME ONE ELSE!!!!

I DIDN'T SELL HIM THE BENT AXLE.

[RokNRich]

Hey Kevin, I sold you the AMC-20 Axle last month right?

haha

Anyhow...

Sucks to hear what happened...

Did they install the new diff you got from me?

The plot thickens.........

[ademster]

The plot thickens.........


no it doesn't I didn't make my self clear!!!

Sorry for the mis understanding.

[RokNRich]

OK, thanks for clearing that up, now back to the regular scheduled program................:o

[ademster]

Thanks Rich for bringing it to my attention..

I do appreciate it.

[SFCMPCJ7]

Thanks again for the help with that axel Adam. When Dessert Fab wasnt able to find me a replacement axel after 2 months, I found yours on this website.:banghead:
Like I said in the past threads, I will have my previous axel "rodded" for clarity on this whole issue and post that info soon.:beatdeadhorse5:
Thank you again for your help.
Kevin

[lancetkenyon]

I have no first hand knowledge of DFs work. But have heard lots of stories about their work. LOTS.

[Jdemonto@Airpark Jeep Sales]

OK, thanks for clearing that up, now back to the regular scheduled program................:o

Thanks Rich for bringing it to my attention..

I do appreciate it.


Boys.....


When are we wheeling:juggle2:

[ademster]

you actually wheel Jason?


haha... come out to my side and we'll wheel.

[RokNRich]

Boys.....


When are we wheeling:juggle2:

I was actually covering his back on that one, the way it read, it sounded like he sold him the bent axle, I told him in chat and he fixed...........

Whenever you are ready J.

:antlers:

[cdhowell]

Tractor Supply had a commercial on TV for a while.

There's no such thing as a free puppy! (kennel, bowls, leash, collar, etc....)

The same apply's to free education.

Learn from it. Your almost an expert on model 20's now.

Now what about that growling tranny?

[AZLugz]

Thanks again for the help with that axel Adam. When Dessert Fab wasnt able to find me a replacement axel after 2 months, I found yours on this website.:banghead:
Like I said in the past threads, I will have my previous axel "rodded" for clarity on this whole issue and post that info soon.:beatdeadhorse5:
Thank you again for your help.
Kevin

Just get over it and press on, its done. No one here will ever be convinced that DF did it wrong, we have had too much done there. Yes, mistakes happen, but not that many

[mysunnshine]

Wow....Some people are really getting bent out of shape and defensive on this one...

[fatbob309]

No one here will ever be convinced that DF did it wrong, we have had too much done there.

You should stop with the blanket statements.

[AZLugz]

You should stop with the blanket statements.

OK, statement was too broad....Point is, it is hashed and over, be done and move on

[lancetkenyon]

You should stop with the blanket statements.

:stupid:

[Jdemonto@Airpark Jeep Sales]

you actually wheel Jason?


haha... come out to my side and we'll wheel.

I was actually covering his back on that one, the way it read, it sounded like he sold him the bent axle, I told him in chat and he fixed...........

Whenever you are ready J.

Weekday trip.....

:antlers:


Yes guys I will be in your area very soon.......


I will complete the loop..... by the end of this month..just need to fix my jeep a little.

Shhhhh...Secret PM trip....Shhhh.....

Jason:punk:

[Moriarty]

Just get over it and press on, its done. No one here will ever be convinced that DF did it wrong, we have had too much done there. Yes, mistakes happen, but not that many

More beating of the horse I know, but I think me and Stoodty would have to disagree with that statement. And there are others I have met on the trail that would disagree also, yet none of them spoke up here and I know why. They just don't want to rock the boat.

This icon is the sh**!:beatdeadhorse5:

[Joe West]

:beatdeadhorse5:

Closing thread.