Axle questions

[jpotts]

I can't seem to save enough money to buy a fancy aftermarket axle all at once, so I'm thinking about starting to build new front axle. I'm pretty much ready to buy a new housing, but am not sure which one to get.

I like the SunRay 1550 (Ford 9/Dana 60 hybrid), but I don't know of any local vendors. I'd like to have local support.

There the Currie Rock Jock and Dynatrac ProRock 60s. I think that they both use ball joints instead of kingpins. But they seem to be super strong.

I have a TJ and would eventually like to stretch it and run 38s or 39s. This project will take a long time.

Does anyone have any input? I've mostly just read things about this stuff and would like to hear from people with real world experience.

Thanks,

Jamie

[rosshh]

I started my build with the spidertrax 9" housing..... heard nothing but good things. I believe woody is currently running it.

[SHNIPE]

id go with currie rock jocks. the clearance is awesome and the weight is down

[lancetkenyon]

How about a junkyard D60 if you are gonna take a while to build it. ProRocks and Rock Jocks are WAY expensive. It is gonna be a couple grand($3K-$4K?) to build one or $6K-$7K to buy one.

[desertfabmotors]

I can't seem to save enough money to buy a fancy aftermarket axle all at once, so I'm thinking about starting to build new front axle. I'm pretty much ready to buy a new housing, but am not sure which one to get.

I like the SunRay 1550 (Ford 9/Dana 60 hybrid), but I don't know of any local vendors. I'd like to have local support.

There the Currie Rock Jock and Dynatrac ProRock 60s. I think that they both use ball joints instead of kingpins. But they seem to be super strong.

I have a TJ and would eventually like to stretch it and run 38s or 39s. This project will take a long time.

Does anyone have any input? I've mostly just read things about this stuff and would like to hear from people with real world experience.

Thanks,

Jamie

All the after market housing are good, Solid axle, Currie's Pro Rocks the Rock Jocks have some issues because of the Alum. Housings and thin axle tubes, Spider Trax housings.

We use them all, just depends on what you want. We can get any type or part you want to build your own.

There is stuff ou there I am looking at, to get your steering to turn 60 Degree's:cool:

[jpotts]

All the after market housing are good, Solid axle, Currie's Pro Rocks the Rock Jocks have some issues because of the Alum. Housings and thin axle tubes, Spider Trax housings.

We use them all, just depends on what you want. We can get any type or part you want to build your own.

There is stuff ou there I am looking at, to get your steering to turn 60 Degree's:cool:

I just wish you guys weren't in western New Mexico.

[SHNIPE]

All the after market housing are good, Solid axle, Currie's Pro Rocks the Rock Jocks have some issues because of the Alum. Housings and thin axle tubes, Spider Trax housings.

We use them all, just depends on what you want. We can get any type or part you want to build your own.

There is stuff ou there I am looking at, to get your steering to turn 60 Degree's:cool:

then someone would say BOO on that cause it uses unit bearings. granted theyre f450 unitbearings on a jeep or buggy but still :P

[Antman]

I agree with Lance. If money is tight look for a used one.:D

[jpotts]

I agree with Lance. If money is tight look for a used one.:D

Money is not too tight. Just too tight to save it all up at once. I could piece it together over several months a lot easier than I could save up several $1000 to plunk down on complete setup.

[Antman]

Money is not too tight. Just too tight to save it all up at once. I could piece it together over several months a lot easier than I could save up several $1000 to plunk down on complete setup.

GO FOR IT!:D:D

[jpotts]

then someone would say BOO on that cause it uses unit bearings. granted theyre f450 unitbearings on a jeep or buggy but still :P

Right. Everyone always has something to say to trash something whether it's unit bearings or ball joints or whatever. I haven't heard of many of these aftermarket axles actually failing, so I am trying to figure out what stuff is web wheelers theorizing about potential failures, and what stuff is actually a problem.

[GruveB]

look at www.crossedupoffroad.com They're in Arizona and are really good guys.

[SHNIPE]

dotn forget crane. Theyre under new ownership and theyre doing awesome. I love theyre products

[SHNIPE]

http://www.cranehiclearance.com/rsd60low.jpg

http://www.cranehiclearance.com/crane1_023.htm

[jpotts]

look at www.crossedupoffroad.com They're in Arizona and are really good guys.

Thanks. They're actually not far from my house either. Maybe if they were a sponsor... :rolleyes:

[jpotts]

http://www.cranehiclearance.com/rsd60low.jpg

http://www.cranehiclearance.com/crane1_023.htm

If they only made them in pink. :rolleyes:

Actually, I haven't looked at the Crane stuff. I'll check those out. Thanks

[Woody]

I just built a 609 for the front of my XJ.

Here's what I used:

Spidertrax housing w cool inner seals: $550
True Hi9 centersection w/detroit: $2100
Yukon axle shafts w 35 spline inners/33 spline outers and stock 60 u-joints: ($400 from a friend)
Teraflex inner C's: ($400 or so w/ ball joints)
Stock dodge dana 60 outers (brakes, knuckles, unit bearings) from the junkyard: $200
New unit bearings ( I couldda used the junkyard ones, but wanted to use new ones): $450

Thats right about $4000, not including steel for brackets and the other little stuff.

It's got about the same ground clearance as my old dana 30 and weighs half of a lot of the Dana 60 builds I've seen (it only weighs somewhere around 400 pounds).


I know a couple guys who went full bling with their 609's (full hydro, etc) and spent well over $6000.

[jpotts]

I just built a 609 for the front of my XJ.

Here's what I used:

Spidertrax housing w cool inner seals: $550
True Hi9 centersection w/detroit: $2100
Yukon axle shafts w 35 spline inners/33 spline outers and stock 60 u-joints: ($400 from a friend)
Teraflex inner C's: ($400 or so w/ ball joints)
Stock dodge dana 60 outers (brakes, knuckles, unit bearings) from the junkyard: $200
New unit bearings ( I couldda used the junkyard ones, but wanted to use new ones): $450

Thats right about $4000, not including steel for brackets and the other little stuff.

It's got about the same ground clearance as my old dana 30 and weighs half of a lot of the Dana 60 builds I've seen (it only weighs somewhere around 400 pounds).


I know a couple guys who went full bling with their 609's (full hydro, etc) and spent well over $6000.

Cool. Thanks

[Heinz57]

If you are planning on big tires and hard wheeling I would steer away from High Pinion Housings. Have seen way too many R&P's breaking on these. It does depend on the type of wheeling you are going to do but would make sense to start with a strong ring and pinion and go from there.

[jpotts]

If you are planning on big tires and hard wheeling I would steer away from High Pinion Housings. Have seen way too many R&P's breaking on these. It does depend on the type of wheeling you are going to do but would make sense to start with a strong ring and pinion and go from there.

I guess everyone has different opinions on what hard wheeling is, but I'm definitely not gentle on my junk.

Thanks for the info

[WalterD]

How about a junkyard D60 if you are gonna take a while to buid it. ProRocks and Rock Jocks are WAY expensive. It is gonna be a couple grand($3K-$4K?) to build one or $6K-$7K to buy one.

I agree with Lance. If money is tight look for a used one.:D

Not hijacking :rolleyes:, but where do you start? What year and model?

[jpotts]

Not hijacking :rolleyes:, but where do you start? What year and model?

I think 78 & 79 Ford's are optimal

[jpotts]

I think that the D60s out of the 78-79 F250 & 350s are high pinion though. As Heinz57 says, they are weaker...

[desertfabmotors]

If you are planning on big tires and hard wheeling I would steer away from High Pinion Housings. Have seen way too many R&P's breaking on these. It does depend on the type of wheeling you are going to do but would make sense to start with a strong ring and pinion and go from there.

And the right foot:)

I do not see alot of R&P's breaking in competition. Yes HP R&P is a little weaker when used in the rear, but not that much. HP's used in the frt. are stronger. Alot of breakage is from putting the skinny pedal on the floor and not knowing when to lift the foot.

I do not know of one competition rig running east or west in Pro-mod or Unlimited that do not run a HP housings.

Also weight down low is a good thing, Lighter housings are not much of a advantage, might be more con's than Pro's ( weaker axle tubes thinner housings which means flex within the housings, weaker knuckles, ball joints ect...

[Heinz57]

And the right foot:)

I do not see alot of R&P's breaking in competition. Yes HP R&P is a little weaker when used in the rear, but not that much. HP's used in the frt. are stronger. Alot of breakage is from putting the skinny pedal on the floor and not knowing when to lift the foot.

I do not know of one competition rig running east or west in Pro-mod or Unlimited that do not run a HP housings.

Also weight down low is a good thing, Lighter housings are not much of a advantage, might be more con's than Pro's ( weaker axle tubes thinner housings which means flex within the housings, weaker knuckles, ball joints ect...

Todd, come on, HPs are barely stronger than a Dana 44 low pinion in the R&P. Rob has broke about 8, Mike at least 5 and seen others break under the same load the low pinion 60s are put under but not breaking. If they are not breaking in the comps then they have not put them to the test yet :D Point is if you can deal with the drive shaft angle get a low pinion which is stronger so you don't have to baby it. It also breaks down to how hard you wheel. Shoot I was breaking High Pinion 9's in the sand, not even in the rocks.

[YGOHOME]

Any new news?

[jpotts]

Nope. I've been going back and forth on this issue. I'm currently thinking that I'll go with a 609. Either a Diamond or SpiderTrax 9" housing & TrueHi center section. Even after I get this stuff, it won't be going into the Jeep for a while. I've got a lot of work to do, and figure that I'll do as much as I can at the same time. I'll just collect the parts for a while. I have a few $1000 saved up now, so I can start soon.

[GRUNT]

Good luck with your build Jamie. You should do a write up and pics...

[Oc1paddler]

You hear lots of B.S. about ball joints and unit bearing being weaker. Look at what all the comp rigs are running. They have almost all switched to the unit bearing ball joint axles. I think that you are going to start seeing a ton more ball joint rigs especially since the older king pin models are getting harder and harder to find.

[jpotts]

The decision is now final. After literally saving up my pennies (almost $500 worth of change), selling the doors from my Jeep, and saving for months, I pulled the trigger on most of a new front axle.

So far I'm getting:

SpiderTrax 9
Deadenbear inner C's and Kingpin knuckles
35 spline True Hi9 w/ ARB & 5.38 ring and pinion
inner seals
a pair of CTM u-joints

I still have a bunch of stuff to piece together, but I'm pretty far on my way now. I can't wait for this stuff to get here.

[1BLKJP]

Good for you Jamie. Woody loves his Spidertrax 609 that he built.

[SHNIPE]

badass jamie! Give it hell!

[mingoglia]

It's interesting to see this thread because I was planning on building almost the identical front axle although I was planning on biting the bullet and getting their hybrid 60 knuckles (ouch $$$). I'm aware of Rob breaking his d60 hp front ring and pinion but I haven't heard of anyone breaking one of the True 9 setups... I know there aren't nearly the number of these setups out there due to the d60 option being around for far longer than this sport has even existed... I'm curious if anyone has any links of someone actually breaking a True 9?

Now back to the "planning" of my build. Last week I had a tough day being stressed at the office and had to go out and spend some money... so I went to Best Buy and bought a camcorder and 2 (yes, two) plasmas for the house (my 42" in the bedroom was too small and was begging to be upgraded), and one for the Den. Because of this "stress buy" and the fact that I'm still planning on ordering the tubing bender combined with the fact that I've spent an additional $1500 on the Jeep this month I may hold of trying to casually slide this axle purchase through the check book (which is right under the wife's nose). I may though start piecing it together in the next couple of months... :) I've gone back and forth between this axle and a d60 for about a year now and there's absolutely zero way anyone can convince me that this axle is NOT superior to the 60. Some will say, "for the same price you can have a d60"... but that's another thread.

Mike

[1BLKJP]

Mike honestly I would take Rick Norman use of it as a huge plus for its strength. I'm not doggin on my boy at all, but he is HARD on his junk and wheels the hell out of it virtually every weekend. After he put the bias claws on he was blowing up D30 R&P's like nobody's business. Since the 609 build its held up like a champ.

Uh so what are you doing with the old 42" from the bedroom? :D

[jpotts]

It's interesting to see this thread because I was planning on building almost the identical front axle although I was planning on biting the bullet and getting their hybrid 60 knuckles (ouch $$$). I'm aware of Rob breaking his d60 hp front ring and pinion but I haven't heard of anyone breaking one of the True 9 setups... I know there aren't nearly the number of these setups out there due to the d60 option being around for far longer than this sport has even existed... I'm curious if anyone has any links of someone actually breaking a True 9?

Mike

The big one that I know of is here:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=584847&highlight=hi9+broken

He has broken 3 in the rear, running on the coast side of the gears.

I know some other people have broken them, but I've only heard of them breaking in the rear.

[mingoglia]

Mike honestly I would take Rick Norman use of it as a huge plus for its strength. I'm not doggin on my boy at all, but he is HARD on his junk and wheels the hell out of it virtually every weekend. After he put the bias claws on he was blowing up D30 R&P's like nobody's business. Since the 609 build its held up like a champ.

Uh so what are you doing with the old 42" from the bedroom? :D

I'm actually thinking of bringing it to my office. :) But I haven't decided. It's funny, I don't watch much TV so it's more for the wife. I did watch, (as my wife would say) a boring DVD on fabrication layout tools last night on the new 52" while my wife was watching something else in the living room. She walked in a few times to remind me of how boring she thought it was. I do have to admit it being late made it difficult to watch a presentation on the different ways to grind a point on a transfer punch. :pinch:

[mingoglia]

The big one that I know of is here:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=584847&highlight=hi9+broken

He has broken 3 in the rear, running on the coast side of the gears.

I know some other people have broken them, but I've only heard of them breaking in the rear.

Hmmm, I guess I have bad luck using search on Pirate. I haven't seen that thread before... perhaps it's because Pirate is so darn slow for me half the time that I get irritated and leave. Thanks for the post. :) ...but yeah, I'm looking initially for the front so I'm still safe there but perhaps I'll consider staying with a d60 in the rear when the time comes.... I'm basically looking for my last set of axles to buy. I'm looking to settle on a width and when I'm ready to upgrade (or build from scratch) a new rig I'll just transfer the axles over. :)

Mike

[mingoglia]

After reading the Pirate thread there's nothing in there that would make me not feel confident in running the setup in the rear... although initially I was only concentrating on the front (and not the rear), if I were to make the decision today on what to go to in the rear I'd probably still steer towards the 609... but then again I'll still keep my options open. But on the front, there's no question in my mind that these things are as close to being bomb proof as you can get.... I'll be continuing to research though. ;)

Mike

[jpotts]

After reading the Pirate thread there's nothing in there that would make me not feel confident in running the setup in the rear... although initially I was only concentrating on the front (and not the rear), if I were to make the decision today on what to go to in the rear I'd probably still steer towards the 609... but then again I'll still keep my options open. But on the front, there's no question in my mind that these things are as close to being bomb proof as you can get.... I'll be continuing to research though. ;)

Mike

I agree 100%. I don't think it's likely that I'd break a True Hi9 in the rear, and would prefer not to have a boat anchor in the back if I'm gonna have a lot of clearance in the front. I have plenty of time to figure it out though. It'll be a while before I'm done with the front end.

[xjstocker]

hey barry does this mean i have broken ring and pinions to look forward to after richards brake problem is solved?

[Woody]

The decision is now final. After literally saving up my pennies (almost $500 worth of change), selling the doors from my Jeep, and saving for months, I pulled the trigger on most of a new front axle.

So far I'm getting:

SpiderTrax 9
Deadenbear inner C's and Kingpin knuckles
35 spline True Hi9 w/ ARB & 5.38 ring and pinion
inner seals
a pair of CTM u-joints

I still have a bunch of stuff to piece together, but I'm pretty far on my way now. I can't wait for this stuff to get here.

Nice! :pimp:

[SavageSun4x4]

I can't seem to save enough money to buy a fancy aftermarket axle all at once, so I'm thinking about starting to build new front axle. I'm pretty much ready to buy a new housing, but am not sure which one to get.

I like the SunRay 1550 (Ford 9/Dana 60 hybrid), but I don't know of any local vendors. I'd like to have local support.

There the Currie Rock Jock and Dynatrac ProRock 60s. I think that they both use ball joints instead of kingpins. But they seem to be super strong.

I have a TJ and would eventually like to stretch it and run 38s or 39s. This project will take a long time.

Does anyone have any input? I've mostly just read things about this stuff and would like to hear from people with real world experience.

Thanks,

Jamie

Of all the stuff out there I have looked at and spoken with owners and users here is my recommendation:

1) Sunray Engineering, Weatherford, Tx. These Tx boys do some great work, quality++++ is there. I know them, been to the shop and seen there work. In fact some of the best work you will find ANYWHERE in the US. They do not beat there tub real hard as they have more work than they can do as it is.

Far as I know they do not have a dealer system. If you were to break that axle you are really playing with the BIG BOYS. There stuff is NOT cheap, but you get what you pay for.

Disadvantages: These are a custom built axle assembly using lots of in-house made parts. You could run into an issue with parts replacement in a timely manner due to the fact that not all parts are available at Autozone. But it is one of the best 9" made by a company that has been in business for a good while.

2) Dynatrac: They have several series of axles fro D44 to D80. In the D60 series they have the Trail Series and the ProRock [I run the ProRocks and have for several years, I wouldn't run anything else].

Dynatrac is a big outfit and they sell well over 3000 axles a year. Jim, the owner is a sharp guy and he has designed a axle that can take the punishment without failing. He keeps the proprietary parts to a minimum. That means a new set of wheel bearings is in stock.

Not having a press in my shop, I got hold of Cole down at 4 Wheelers to help me out. While working on it down there we noticed I had gotten some mud/sand in one of the front wheel bearings. Cole said not a problem, got'um in stock!

Advantage Dyantrac! NOTE, I think Jim is running a special on Dynatrac ProRocks, some free upgrades with an order. Call him up and ask, you are welcome to mention my name (my rig is in the Dynatrac catalog) or you might call Cole too.


Just saw your last post: Looks like you are doing your own build and you picked some top of the line to do it with...I suspect there is a good savings over buying complete bolt-ins. You will be quite pleased with the results.

[AZXJ]

It's interesting to see this thread because I was planning on building almost the identical front axle although I was planning on biting the bullet and getting their hybrid 60 knuckles (ouch $$$). I'm aware of Rob breaking his d60 hp front ring and pinion but I haven't heard of anyone breaking one of the True 9 setups... I know there aren't nearly the number of these setups out there due to the d60 option being around for far longer than this sport has even existed... I'm curious if anyone has any links of someone actually breaking a True 9?

Now back to the "planning" of my build. Last week I had a tough day being stressed at the office and had to go out and spend some money... so I went to Best Buy and bought a camcorder and 2 (yes, two) plasmas for the house (my 42" in the bedroom was too small and was begging to be upgraded), and one for the Den. Because of this "stress buy" and the fact that I'm still planning on ordering the tubing bender combined with the fact that I've spent an additional $1500 on the Jeep this month I may hold of trying to casually slide this axle purchase through the check book (which is right under the wife's nose). I may though start piecing it together in the next couple of months... :) I've gone back and forth between this axle and a d60 for about a year now and there's absolutely zero way anyone can convince me that this axle is NOT superior to the 60. Some will say, "for the same price you can have a d60"... but that's another thread.

Mike


Mike,

Call me when your ready to slide this deal under the radar.. Remember Im your parts :pimp:

[Heinz57]

hey barry does this mean i have broken ring and pinions to look forward to after richards brake problem is solved?

I was off a bit when I referred to the front from a rear perspective. The True high nine or hp 60 are pretty solid fronts. But no way you could sell me on either in the rear. I said "me", me wheels pretty fricken hard and me is currently looking for a rear Dana 80 for confidence.

Richard won't wheel like I do with his pretty jeep, trust me on this one!!:laugh2:

[SavageSun4x4]

It's interesting to see this thread because I was planning on building almost the identical front axle although I was planning on biting the bullet and getting their hybrid 60 knuckles (ouch $$$). I'm aware of Rob breaking his d60 hp front ring and pinion but I haven't heard of anyone breaking one of the True 9 setups... I know there aren't nearly the number of these setups out there due to the d60 option being around for far longer than this sport has even existed... I'm curious if anyone has any links of someone actually breaking a True 9?

've gone back and forth between this axle and a d60 for about a year now and there's absolutely zero way anyone can convince me that this axle is NOT superior to the 60. Some will say, "for the same price you can have a d60"... but that's another thread.

Mike
Ford 9 Vs D60: This argument seems to pop-up from time to time, mostly when some guy runs out and spends his hard earned cash on a 9" and is looking to be convinced he was smarter than him buying a D60. That said, lets take a look at the 2 axles.

To begin with I am in no way convinced that any camparo between a Ford 9 and a D60 is apples to apples, but lets do our best.

Axles are generally rated in two key areas. Torque and weight (capacity). The 9" is not just a good axle but in fact a great axle and I have far more exposure to the 9" than to the D60. But that is because of my early racing days in the 60's. The 9" became the mainstay of the 1/4 mile and as far as I know it still does. But WHY?

Strong R&P which does not suffer from deflection and a lightweight axle assembly. Throw in some Summers Brothers axle shafts and go race. [Ever wonder where the Curries got their fame??? it was NOT in the 4x4 business!]

D60 on the other hand is a strong R&P (but the design in the 9" is superior IMO) and is a strong axle assembly, thus and a key drawback is its weight Vs the 9".

Now lets compare the 2 sports, Rock crawling Vs Drag Racing: Side step the clutch at 7k rpm and nail the go pedal, let the slipper clutches do there thing converting 1500++++HP to go power and send the 1900-3200 lb rig in a hurry. (PLEASE take note of the smoking tires this is important).

Rock crawling: 200-300 HP and torque, feather the clutch at 1200 rpm in 4 low, avoid slipping your tires and crawl that 4-5500 lb rig right up the face of the cliff.

What axle do you want? 9" or D60? First you will have to truss that 9" like a jock strap for King Kong. Question: Can you build a 9" to exceed the strength of the D60? DUHHHHHH, certainly. But since we are in a building mode I'll put my built D60 against your built 9" any day, but that is not the point.

Question, where do you find (in OEM form) the Ford 9", the D60? Notice any difference? Remember what I said about WEIGHT CAPACITY? You won't find a 9" sitting under a Ford 450 truck and there is a reason for it.

Question do I use a 9" or D60 in my Jeep? Me, well I use a D60 and it has to do with the fact that my pig is right around 5500 lbs (+ hauling a loaded trailer at about 1200 lbs), therefore I need a strong axle assembly and a strong R&P. For me and a LOT of folks the D60 is a good fit.

That said if you run a buggy or a lightweight Jeep then the 9" is an excellent choice. But it is NOT an apples to apples camparo...kinda like comparing a Ford 450 truck to a sports car.

[mingoglia]

Ford 9 Vs D60: This argument seems to pop-up from time to time, mostly when some guy runs out and spends his hard earned cash on a 9" and is looking to be convinced he was smarter than him buying a D60. That said, lets take a look at the 2 axles.

To begin with I am in no way convinced that any camparo between a Ford 9 and a D60 is apples to apples, but lets do our best.

Axles are generally rated in two key areas. Torque and weight (capacity). The 9" is not just a good axle but in fact a great axle and I have far more exposure to the 9" than to the D60. But that is because of my early racing days in the 60's. The 9" became the mainstay of the 1/4 mile and as far as I know it still does. But WHY?

Strong R&P which does not suffer from deflection and a lightweight axle assembly. Throw in some Summers Brothers axle shafts and go race. [Ever wonder where the Curries got their fame??? it was NOT in the 4x4 business!]

D60 on the other hand is a strong R&P (but the design in the 9" is superior IMO) and is a strong axle assembly, thus and a key drawback is its weight Vs the 9".

Now lets compare the 2 sports, Rock crawling Vs Drag Racing: Side step the clutch at 7k rpm and nail the go pedal, let the slipper clutches do there thing converting 1500++++HP to go power and send the 1900-3200 lb rig in a hurry. (PLEASE take note of the smoking tires this is important).

Rock crawling: 200-300 HP and torque, feather the clutch at 1200 rpm in 4 low, avoid slipping your tires and crawl that 4-5500 lb rig right up the face of the cliff.

What axle do you want? 9" or D60? First you will have to truss that 9" like a jock strap for King Kong. Question: Can you build a 9" to exceed the strength of the D60? DUHHHHHH, certainly. But since we are in a building mode I'll put my built D60 against your built 9" any day, but that is not the point.

Question, where do you find (in OEM form) the Ford 9", the D60? Notice any difference? Remember what I said about WEIGHT CAPACITY? You won't find a 9" sitting under a Ford 450 truck and there is a reason for it.

Question do I use a 9" or D60 in my Jeep? Me, well I use a D60 and it has to do with the fact that my pig is right around 5500 lbs (+ hauling a loaded trailer at about 1200 lbs), therefore I need a strong axle assembly and a strong R&P. For me and a LOT of folks the D60 is a good fit.

That said if you run a buggy or a lightweight Jeep then the 9" is an excellent choice. But it is NOT an apples to apples camparo...kinda like comparing a Ford 450 truck to a sports car.

With that argument Don why stop there? Why not throw in a D110 under your Jeep? Yes, stock for stock a d60 is far stronger than a 9". Part of the reason why it's under a F450 has a lot to do with the amount of weight that the axle tubes need to support. This is the reason why some dually trucks have the hubrid D80 that actually has D70 internals... and also part of the reason why the d50 in the front of all but the most recent Ford trucks had d44 guts... these trucks need stronger axle tubes/housings to support the load of hauling but don't necessarily need a stronger ring gear to get the job done.

Now back to the argument with the Jeep. If the superior design of the 9" can handle the input power and you can get an aftermarket housing equal to strength to a d60 housing then that's what closes the deal with me. Now you have your (admittedly) superior 9" third member, combined with the weight carrying ability of a d60 (forded by the aftermarket housing). Throw in some d60 knuckles to top it off and you have an axle that is every bit as tough (and possibly tougher) as a d60, with half the weight and at least an inch more ground clearance. Better yet you may want to take it one step further and through in a truehi9 in the back and have considerably more ground clearance under your drive shaft. Yeah you can do the same thing with a HPD60, but at what strength cost?

I'm with the group of folks that believe heavier axles are actually a good thing due to COG... but if this lighter weight ends up being a problem on your competition/trail only rig just put some weight in the tires. :)

...and finally... sure would be nice to yank out a third member, toss it in the trunk and head to get some new gears installed. ;)

Mike

[mingoglia]

One more thing... for you guys that don't know this, these axle housings are only $399:

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/423460/fullsize/spidertrax-housing.jpg

So to answer the question that's been asked on many many threads on many many forums:

"Why would you build a 9" when for the same price you can build a D60?"

Answer:

Because it's superior in almost every way to a build D60, that's why. ;)

Once again, the term "built" is used here. A stock run of the mill 9" is far inferior to the average D60. ...but built, it's a whole new game.

Mike

[jpotts]

Ford 9 Vs D60: This argument seems to pop-up from time to time, mostly when some guy runs out and spends his hard earned cash on a 9" and is looking to be convinced he was smarter than him buying a D60. That said, lets take a look at the 2 axles.

To begin with I am in no way convinced that any camparo between a Ford 9 and a D60 is apples to apples, but lets do our best.

Axles are generally rated in two key areas. Torque and weight (capacity). The 9" is not just a good axle but in fact a great axle and I have far more exposure to the 9" than to the D60. But that is because of my early racing days in the 60's. The 9" became the mainstay of the 1/4 mile and as far as I know it still does. But WHY?

Strong R&P which does not suffer from deflection and a lightweight axle assembly. Throw in some Summers Brothers axle shafts and go race. [Ever wonder where the Curries got their fame??? it was NOT in the 4x4 business!]

D60 on the other hand is a strong R&P (but the design in the 9" is superior IMO) and is a strong axle assembly, thus and a key drawback is its weight Vs the 9".

Now lets compare the 2 sports, Rock crawling Vs Drag Racing: Side step the clutch at 7k rpm and nail the go pedal, let the slipper clutches do there thing converting 1500++++HP to go power and send the 1900-3200 lb rig in a hurry. (PLEASE take note of the smoking tires this is important).

Rock crawling: 200-300 HP and torque, feather the clutch at 1200 rpm in 4 low, avoid slipping your tires and crawl that 4-5500 lb rig right up the face of the cliff.

What axle do you want? 9" or D60? First you will have to truss that 9" like a jock strap for King Kong. Question: Can you build a 9" to exceed the strength of the D60? DUHHHHHH, certainly. But since we are in a building mode I'll put my built D60 against your built 9" any day, but that is not the point.

Question, where do you find (in OEM form) the Ford 9", the D60? Notice any difference? Remember what I said about WEIGHT CAPACITY? You won't find a 9" sitting under a Ford 450 truck and there is a reason for it.

Question do I use a 9" or D60 in my Jeep? Me, well I use a D60 and it has to do with the fact that my pig is right around 5500 lbs (+ hauling a loaded trailer at about 1200 lbs), therefore I need a strong axle assembly and a strong R&P. For me and a LOT of folks the D60 is a good fit.

That said if you run a buggy or a lightweight Jeep then the 9" is an excellent choice. But it is NOT an apples to apples camparo...kinda like comparing a Ford 450 truck to a sports car.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but doesn't this argument support the logic of a 60/9 hybrid axle?

[Heinz57]

Just to chime in, yes, I believe the high nine or hybred up front is a solid route. But, in the rear a low nine, which when built is as strong or possibly stronger than a stock low pionion 60, just comes out so low that rear drive shaft angle can be an issue. And throwing a hp rear end just doesn't make sense to hard, hard core wheeling, in my experiences.

When it comes to weight the nine is not that much lighter than a 60, that is unless there is no beef, and my guess is thick axle tubes are critical, so you want the beef, the outers will be the same so it is just the center section. But if you weigh the center section I doubt they are twice as light (9) than a 60

[Oc1paddler]

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but doesn't this argument support the logic of a 60/9 hybrid axle?

Yes it does. Thats also not talking about using the true hi 9. The true hi 9 use's a third bearing on the head of the pinion virtually eliminating any kind of deflection at all. If you look at the test results it is considerable stronger than a dana 60 plus you get the hi pinion. Sounds like a win, win situation to me.

[mingoglia]

But if you weigh the center section I doubt they are twice as light (9) than a 60

Somewhere on Pirate, and their slow site makes me crazy to search there was someone that weighed his old "build" d60 and comapred it to his new Spidertrax housing with the truehi9 and the ultra-expensive Spidertrax hybrid knuckles and it was almost exactly half the weight... I believe the setup was in the mid 300lb range where is d60 was in the mid (or possibly low) 600 range.... or maybe it was high 500 range. I remember it being pretty close to half.

Mike

[1BLKJP]

One more thing... for you guys that don't know this, these axle housings are only $399:

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/423460/fullsize/spidertrax-housing.jpg



Since you've been lookin at them already Mike I know you know that it's not the housing that makes that setup so expensive. :D I think the tru-hi 9 chunk is in the 2500 range. :d

[Heinz57]

Somewhere on Pirate, and their slow site makes me crazy to search there was someone that weighed his old "build" d60 and comapred it to his new Spidertrax housing with the truehi9 and the ultra-expensive Spidertrax hybrid knuckles and it was almost exactly half the weight... I believe the setup was in the mid 300lb range where is d60 was in the mid (or possibly low) 600 range.... or maybe it was high 500 range. I remember it being pretty close to half.

Mike

I am finding it at about 150lb savings, mostly in the tubes, 1/2 steel vs 1/4 chromo. The aftermarket outer stuff seems to be a factor as well, much lighter in the spidertrax depo. As far as center section the nine inch pig with r&p is not real light!!, unless you go alum which does not do well on the rocks. Absolutely a good way to go in the front and cool bling factor. Also by buying it by the piece it can be done reasonably with the $ vs shelling out a bunch on a rusted junk yard 60 all at once.

[AZXJ]

Just to chime in, yes, I believe the high nine or hybred up front is a solid route. But, in the rear a low nine, which when built is as strong or possibly stronger than a stock low pionion 60, just comes out so low that rear drive shaft angle can be an issue. And throwing a hp rear end just doesn't make sense to hard, hard core wheeling, in my experiences.

When it comes to weight the nine is not that much lighter than a 60, that is unless there is no beef, and my guess is thick axle tubes are critical, so you want the beef, the outers will be the same so it is just the center section. But if you weigh the center section I doubt they are twice as light (9) than a 60

I guess I am Not Hard Core!!:smug: I have ran HP D60's with reverse cut gears in the rear of the past 3 rigs I have built. Have not broke one yet. There are also alot of them in the competition side to, do not see to many break there either.
I could not run a low pinion, I have drivline issues with the high pinion, and my new buggy sits very low. Makes sense to me to run a HP60 :laugh2:

Todd

[SavageSun4x4]

1) With that argument Don why stop there? Why not throw in a D110 under your Jeep?

2) Part of the reason why it's under a F450 has a lot to do with the amount of weight that the axle tubes need to support.


3) Now you have your (admittedly) superior 9" third member, combined with the weight carrying ability of a d60 (forded by the aftermarket housing). Throw in some d60 knuckles to top it off and you have an axle that is every bit as tough (and possibly tougher) as a d60, with

4) half the weight and at least an inch more ground clearance.

5) Yeah you can do the same thing with a HPD60, but at what strength cost?

Mike

1) I assume that is a joke, but if not then unless your Jeep weights in excess of about 45,000 lbs then it is just not needed.

2) Thought I made that clear that is a prime factor and one of the 2 key ways of rating an axle, torque and weight (capacity)

3) Perhaps

4) I would need to see that on the scales

5) At what cost, strength? Yea, good question


1) One more thing... for you guys that don't know this, these axle housings are only $399:

2) "Why would you build a 9" when for the same price you can build a D60?"

Answer:

Because it's superior in almost every way to a build D60, that's why. ;)

Once again, the term "built" is used here. A stock run of the mill 9" is far inferior to the average D60. ...but built, it's a whole new game.

Mike
1) $399! Good don't come cheap and cheap don't come good...

2) Let me get this straight: A BUY and complete new fabbed housing for my 9", then I truss it like a Russian weight lifter, then I BUY D60 knuckles and I put it all together. I am using various other parts and sizes that when the sucker breaks I can find the replacements only the Parts UnObtainium Warehouse which is closed due to the writers strike. And I do all this so I can try to convince myself I have a better axle than the guy with the unbuilt D60...

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but doesn't this argument support the logic of a 60/9 hybrid axle?

It certainly could.

Yes it does. Thats also not talking about using the true hi 9. The true hi 9 use's a third bearing on the head of the pinion virtually eliminating any kind of deflection at all. If you look at the test results it is considerable stronger than a dana 60 plus you get the hi pinion. Sounds like a win, win situation to me.
I have Hi-Pinion front and rear, I can run 42 in meats and can drop in a Chevy V8 and handle 500 plus HP/Torque.


Now lets add another facet to the equation. TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) or OYLC (Out Year Lifecycle Costs). In other words if I install it today how much over and above acquisition cost will it hit me for over the years. AND what is the lifecycle as measured in terms of mean time between failures.

1) COTS (commercial off the shelf) Vs Proprietary: I have already provided an example of this in my previous post. That said, what do you want to bet that in Moab, Clayton OK, Glimer Tx, 3 popular and heaveily visited wheeling spots in the Southwest that I can find parts for my Dynatrac, Hi Pinion ProRock 60 in ANY of those towns and do it on a Saturday...

2) How much are those parts going to cost down at the Ford or Chevy Dealership?

3) What is the life expectancy of my ProRock D60's to failure (junkyard dogs)? 100, 300, 400k miles, maybe some front wheel bearings (both for about $60 bucks or so with trailside install.

4) How long have they been building D60's? How long ago did they STOP building the Ford 9"?

[Pac8541]

Some day I'll be able to build a pair of 609's but at the moment, it makes no sense. For the same money it'd take to build 1 rear with most of the components you guys are talking about I can get a HP60 front and 14 bolt rear, get them regeared and locked, and convert the rear to discs and still have some left over to put towards an Atlas. Sure I give up some ground clearance but that isn't enough to justify the additional cost; I'll just shift my line one way or the other.

I've cancelled my order for a Spidertrax housing and have put thoughts of a TruHi9 aside for the time being. Maybe after a few of my 7 kids get out of school and my wife earns her degree I'll revisit this thread and start collecting parts... For now, its a 60/14bolt.

[Heinz57]

I guess I am Not Hard Core!!:smug: I have ran HP D60's with reverse cut gears in the rear of the past 3 rigs I have built. Have not broke one yet. There are also alot of them in the competition side to, do not see to many break there either.
I could not run a low pinion, I have drivline issues with the high pinion, and my new buggy sits very low. Makes sense to me to run a HP60 :laugh2:

Todd

Nope, Todd you are hard core. Just that you don't spend as much time as most wheeling due to football, shop and comps or go to the dunes and really stress out the rear as some of us. If for comps only and drivelines issues then I don't see a problem with the R&P being HP, just a fact everything has so many horsepower hours and the low pinion will last longer in my rig. I see R&P's break on the trail, most common are HP, usually someone says welp broke my ring and pinion in the rear, well what are you running....uh, hp.:laugh2:

I have Hi-Pinion front and rear, I can run 42 in meats and can drop in a Chevy V8 and handle 500 plus HP/Torque.

As stated above, how many hp hours do you get? My guess not as many as a low pinion. With regards to pinion strength the nine surely has a stronger set up, but what about shaft diameter, guys I know are not breaking the gears all the time some are breaking the pinion shaft. Just a question.

[mingoglia]

1)

1) $399! Good don't come cheap and cheap don't come good...



I'll respond to the rest a bit later...trying to get out of the office. But Don, you really need to do some reading. That $399 axle was all over W.E. Rock a couple weeks ago. That housing is about as bulletproof as they come and for slightly more coin you can go even thicker on the axle tubes. So in this case, Good CAN, and does, come cheap.

Mike

[desertfabmotors]

I'll respond to the rest a bit later...trying to get out of the office. But Don, you really need to do some reading. That $399 axle was all over W.E. Rock a couple weeks ago. That housing is about as bulletproof as they come and for slightly more coin you can go even thicker on the axle tubes. So in this case, Good CAN, and does, come cheap.

Mike

Thicker tubes are better, Had a couple 1/4 tubes bend last season in another car on a cart wheel down a big ledge.

My axles tubes are 1/2", heavy but can't hurt them very easy.:smug:

[SavageSun4x4]

I have Hi-Pinion front and rear, I can run 42 in meats and can drop in a Chevy V8 and handle 500 plus HP/Torque.

As stated above, how many hp hours do you get? My guess not as many as a low pinion. With regards to pinion strength the nine surely has a stronger set up, but what about shaft diameter, guys I know are not breaking the gears all the time some are breaking the pinion shaft. Just a question.

I don't think the 9" is any stronger, better engineered (or so I think) and can be make very strong. But to get it stronger you need to strengthen (substantially so the axle housing. A well built 9" is a great axle and I have seen many thousands of HP run thru them, time after time after time. But there is a WORLD of difference between a 1320 trip in Daytona and a trip down Pritchett Canyon in Moab.

What makes rock crawling so brutal is massive amounts of torque applied to often immovable objects, like when our 37's get jammed into a rock crevice and you let out on the clutch and the entire 5000+ lbs of Jeep lifts straight up. The D 60 is built for those type of loads. The 9" is not BUT you can make that way.

On the 1320 that axle only needs to handle the hp/torque for a split second. After that the rear tires break loose and the slipper clutch mitigates the delivery of hp/torque. This is where the design of the R&P trumps the D60 (in the context of the application of high hp/torque for short periods of time as measured in seconds). Plus the 9' has hp/T applied to it very evenly across both rear wheels. Not true in rock crawling. Very uneven loading.

I will doubt that you can build a 9" to any level you so desire, we have access to the technology to do so but a junkyard D60 will not only provide long term reliable service it has the capacity to be built as far as one wants to go.

I am not sure why one would go the 9" route, I don't see the key advantages over the 60.

Let me direct you to http://www.sunrayengineering.com/ go to the "Why a Nine", it talks about and compares it to "the standard Dana 60". Then check out their "1550" 9" under "Axles". You might want to even call them up and ask for the price of a brake hub to brake hub for a TJ. Make sure you are sitting down. IMO I do not believe there is a better 9" made ANYWHERE!

HP Vs LP breakage and MTBF (mean time between failures): I cannot honestly say and in fact I do not know. What I can say is that folks that break (whatever component) are just breaking stuff, no more, no less. UNLESS there is a trend or widespread breakage of the same component part on various Jeeps. I think that RK has some issues early on with some breakage and it became widespread which caused them to make a mod in there suspension.

HP axles are not rare or unusual and in fact have been around as long as axles have. Dana makes the D44 and D60 in OEM configurations in a HP. That said I am sure they know the MTBF but my guess is that it is not a significant difference. It would APPEAR that the HP is at a disadvantage Vs the LP. But unless the difference in MTBF is on the order of a magnitude then I doubt it has much of an impact on the life of the axle.

It is my guess that the expected life is some multiple of 100k miles for both. At that point in time then it really falls into the "fair wear and tear" category.

I doubt that any company has more after market HP axles than Dynatrac. I will think to ask Jim about that on our next meeting. In addition Dynatrac build and ships over 3000 axles per year and I would think that any degree of failure would pop up on the forums if there was an issue.

In short, I will concur that the HP might be at a disadvantage Vs the LP but I doubt (at this time) that the difference is significant.

[mingoglia]

What makes rock crawling so brutal is massive amounts of torque applied to often immovable objects, like when our 37's get jammed into a rock crevice and you let out on the clutch and the entire 5000+ lbs of Jeep lifts straight up. The D 60 is built for those type of loads. The 9" is not BUT you can make that way.



I'm going to respond to this paragraph before reading the rest. Particularly the last 2 sentences.

In what way is the D60 built for that type of load ("jammed into a rock crevice")? The larger housings are designed to carry more weight. The axle tubes were designed to carry the weight of a light/heavy up to a medium duty truck plus a $1k lb engine. That's why the housing is so thick. Yes, a byproduct of this is the ability to stay together in a Jeep...not the other way around. The larger ring/pinion were designed to stand up to the GVWR of the vehicle.

A 9" ring on paper is weaker than the D60, no doubt. But as you've cited earlier, due to design resulting in less deflection more goes further here... so I'd say we're at least even here. If you want proof get with Cole when he gets back from vacation and ask him how many rear ring/pinions Rob has broken in the Wheelers buggy. I believe his axle housings are at least as strong as yours are. Now with that information post on Pirate how many people have broken a rear spidertrax 609 with a truehi9 third member. After you get both pieces of information, come back here with the results. ;) Or don't. :)

With regards to the housing, since there's tons of companies that make housings at least as strong as the d60 such as the above I once again don't see the d60 advantage here? Yes, there's no doubt that the d60 is designed to be much more substantial than a 9"... but the deflection which isn't a problem for the application it was designed for doesn't scale very well when you beef everything else around it.

Let's put it another way. In heavy duty applications you rarely here of ring/pinions going out because in that application the strength of the R/P takes a back seat to the housing strength. It's all about housing strength. Yeah you do hear about some R/P failures but much of these are due to heat and not loads similiar to rock crawling.

On Edit: Let me sum it up to a sentence or two... You can always make your axle housing stronger. There's virtually no limitation here... you can only compensate so much for pinion deflection before it's no longer a d60.

[1toughxj]

Man, after all this 609 talk :argue:..... Anyone want a piece of crap HP D60. :rolleyes:

[Pac8541]

Yeah, I'll take it Ben.

[mingoglia]

Yeah, I'll take it Ben.

I'll take it as well. It's a fine axle.... sure beats what I have under the Jeep now by 10 X's. :)

[Pac8541]

I need a front so if its a rear, you can have it.

[YJunk]

my rock jock is holding up pretty well and I'm not the original owner... Not reccomended for high HP V8's with large tires but a pretty good unit for the light weight TJ and YJ... I have pounded mine...

[SavageSun4x4]

I'm going to respond to this paragraph before reading the rest. Particularly the last 2 sentences.

1) In what way is the D60 built for that type of load ("jammed into a rock crevice")? The larger housings are designed to carry more weight. The axle tubes were designed to carry the weight of a light/heavy up to a medium duty truck plus a $1k lb engine. That's why the housing is so thick. Yes, a byproduct of this is the ability to stay together in a Jeep...not the other way around. The larger ring/pinion were designed to stand up to the GVWR of the vehicle.

2) A 9" ring on paper is weaker than the D60, no doubt. But as you've cited earlier, due to design resulting in less deflection more goes further here... so I'd say we're at least even here. If you want proof get with Cole when he gets back from vacation and ask him how many rear ring/pinions Rob has broken in the Wheelers buggy. I believe his axle housings are at least as strong as yours are. Now with that information post on Pirate how many people have broken a rear spidertrax 609 with a truehi9 third member. After you get both pieces of information, come back here with the results. ;) Or don't. :)

3) With regards to the housing, since there's tons of companies that make housings at least as strong as the d60 such as the above I once again don't see the d60 advantage here? Yes, there's no doubt that the d60 is designed to be much more substantial than a 9"... but the deflection which isn't a problem for the application it was designed for doesn't scale very well when you beef everything else around it.

4) Let's put it another way. In heavy duty applications you rarely here of ring/pinions going out because in that application the strength of the R/P takes a back seat to the housing strength. It's all about housing strength. Yeah you do hear about some R/P failures but much of these are due to heat and not loads similiar to rock crawling.

5) On Edit: Let me sum it up to a sentence or two... You can always make your axle housing stronger. There's virtually no limitation here... you can only compensate so much for pinion deflection before it's no longer a d60.
Mike, sorry, but I must have read this diatribe 4 or 5 times to grasp the thread that it contains. I missed it and if there is a point to it I am just not sure what it is.

To that end I will make a few comments:

1) First you say the D60 is not built for that type of load in rock crawling...then you go on to say " That's why the housing is so thick. Yes, a byproduct of this is the ability to stay together in a Jeep...not the other way around. The larger ring/pinion were designed to stand up to the GVWR of the vehicle."

I am sure its my lack of understanding that causes my confusion.

2) I thought 1) was convoluted, yet this para leaves me even more confused. What proof am I wanting, what exactly am I supposed to be researching on Pirate? I am really at a loss now. And you are telling me to get back to you on this...YES MASTER!

3) There is a ton of companies that make housing as strong as the D60 so you can make you 9" comparable to a D60 by doing that??? So what is the advantage? I guess and in my feeble old man's mind that if you have to beef the 9" to make it = to the D60 as is then...oh well, let me read this para again I am missing the bubble here.

4) You rarely hear (spelling) of R&P going out, but then you do and its from something else and which is not rock crawling??????? "It's all about housing strength." OK well then how about paras 1/3?????

You can always make your housing stronger but if you do then you are compensating for pinion deflection, therefore its no longer a D60. OK I guess you win is all I can say.

http://www.sunrayengineering.com/ Go look under "Axles and view the 9".

http://www.currieenterprises.com/cestore/jeep9inrearend.aspx These folks maybe know more about the Ford 9" than even Ford. Lots of good info on here and some of the best and most versatile 9"s in the business.

Summary:
Let me sum this up as I am tired of typing but mostly tired of the lack of any viable discussion taking place for you the reader in order to make a decision on.

Whether you choose a D60 from junkyard dog to Dynatrac or a Ford 9" from Sunray or Currie you will not go wrong for 99% of the folks reading here. Both have there advantages and disadvantages in lots of ways.

That said they are indeed 2 different axles and not apples in the same box to be viewed and compared to each other. Albeit I have never run the 9" I am highly respectful of it. When I was racing I could not run the 9" due to class limitations. But I had LOTS of friends that did. I rarely saw any D60s, just not a space they seemed to work in.

Some key questions to ask are what size tires do I want to run. Here you might turn to Currie as ask for there recommendations on max tire size for there 9" axles.

Weight of my rig and its intended use, trails only or DD looking to knock down 100k miles on streets and trails.

Finally the cost to completion of of the chosen axle. Buy it built or build it out. If you set the right parameters you will be more than pleased with either choice.

I have tired to show you some ways of thinking about this choice. Various choices and considerations. Some here only wish to turn the thread into some kind of slug fest like we are Obama and Hillary. Sadly they failed you the reader looking for info not hype-o.

Certainly the $ invested in axles needs to be done wisely as you do not want to do it twice because you made a mistake.

Its your Jeep, your pride of ride, be it solid gold, gold plated or just brass it was your choice, be proud...good day.

[mingoglia]

Yeah Don, this has been a spirited debate which was fun. Furthermore, I usually have a good time batting it back and forth with ya... but we're probably beating a horse now.

So in closing I'll address just a couple of points. If it can be made as strong as a d60, what's the point? The point is a equally strong axle with better ground clearance and lighter weight (if lighter weight is an advantage for your application).

With regards to Currie you did make the point about tire size and if I recall correctly they do recommend up to a 37" tire and not more. But IMHO although they're a legend in automotive racing I believe they have far from the strongest 9" housing for our purposes. The Spidertrax is an example as well as the Sunray which you pointed out in another thread.

Ironic as it must sound I just left a voicemail for a guy that I'm attempting to source a d60 from for my Jeep. ;)

Mike

[SavageSun4x4]

Thank you Mike, WOW, I must say you had me worried there for a bit...I know Mike and he is one hellva smart guy and a good guy to boot.

We cannot forget that in spite of the fun we have in "bench racing" as we used to call it. There are a lot of folks watching that have a keen interest the topic, no matter what it might be.

It is certainly the duty of all to insure we impart honest and frank opinions and do so in a "level field" way. I think this holds especially true when the stake$$ are at this point. Its not like we are discussing the a pluses and minuses of gear shift knobs....Which on that subject I am a fan of the B&M T handle grip, IMO I feel it provides superior shifting management and is better engineered than the Hurst unit...:drummer:

[mingoglia]

.....Which on that subject I am a fan of the B&M T handle grip, IMO I feel it provides superior shifting management and is better engineered than the Hurst unit...:drummer:

Yeah, but is it as strong as the Hurst unit? :angel:

[jeff krause]

Here are my thoughts on a axle

Rear.... run a D60/14 bolt / 8.8 / ford 9 whatever you pick.... through disc breaks on it a detroit or weld the spider and call it good...


FRONT:::::

here's the low down according to 'me'

save your coin for a High Pinion 60 build it once be done with it.. I have a pretty ell build Low pinion Dana 44 , high steer, locked, 8 lug outers.. yada yada yada... With the amount of money put into it I could have bought a D60 H.p. and never looked back.......

[mingoglia]

Here are my thoughts on a axle

Rear.... run a D60/14 bolt / 8.8 / ford 9 whatever you pick.... through disc breaks on it a detroit or weld the spider and call it good...


FRONT:::::

here's the low down according to 'me'

save your coin for a High Pinion 60 build it once be done with it.. I have a pretty ell build Low pinion Dana 44 , high steer, locked, 8 lug outers.. yada yada yada... With the amount of money put into it I could have bought a D60 H.p. and never looked back.......

You're a little late to the debate Jeff. Try again the next time this argument comes up. This thread was so yesterday. :)

[SavageSun4x4]

Yeah, but is it as strong as the Hurst unit? :angel:

Hurst = 2 piece shifter, B&M = 1 piece, solid stainless steel.

Oh and now B&M owns Hurst.

[mingoglia]

Hurst = 2 piece shifter, B&M = 1 piece, solid stainless steel.

Oh and now B&M owns Hurst.

Yeah, but with the B&M if you were to break it you'd have to replace the whole thing... with the Hurst you can just replace part of it. Advantage = Hurst. :aagh:

[SavageSun4x4]

Yeah, but with the B&M if you were to break it you'd have to replace the whole thing... with the Hurst you can just replace part of it. Advantage = Hurst. :aagh:
ROTFLMAO, YOU GOT ME! :drummer:

Best laugh I have had in a long time...