Gears

[desertrubi]

I am looking at getting new gears and axle shafts for the jeep and have a question. How hard is it to replace gears? And if its not that hard, I would like to do it and learn how its done. I hate paying somebody else to do work on my cars unless I just can't do it or have the time to get it done. Would anybody be willing to come stand over my shoulder and guide me in how to do it? You wouldn't have to do anything except drink beer and explain what I need to do.

[AZXJ]

If you don't have experience setting up gears, I'd suggest you invest in somone with experience.

Dave

[desertrubi]

I see your point, but then I don't learn.

[playinthemud]

desertrubi, I am in the same boat i just picked up a 44 and am going to do the gears and rebuild myself, no idea were to start so I figured I would buy the book from randy on amazon. 300 and some odd pages can't be a bad start.

[ademster]

its not easy, if you have never done it before.

if you do attempt to do it by your self, I highly recommend finding someone who knows how to do it, to help guide you/teach you as you seem you need to do it your self.


I would look up Bob Vista tech section on pirate 4x4 and he has a step by step on how to set-up gears.

[Fire Ball]

I do my own gears and have done probably a dozen sets in my life and still feel like I really don't know what I am doing.

I learned in school because my first chosen career was to be an auto mechanic. I changed majors and went on to do other things. Without the training I had I would never have been able to do it. If you are probably only going to do the one vehicle or maybe 2, I suggest paying to have it done.

As I said I do my own but I don't do it for other people because there is too much to risk if you get it wrong.

My $.02

[chopped7]

Read this article and decide if you think you're up to it. I've never set up gears and probably never will. This is a great article though.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/articles/tech/billavista/Gear_Setup

[SHNIPE]

i say do them yourself. If you eff them up then shame on you. you shoulda double and triple checked!! Itd be awesome to learn and know how it is done. Then you can charge $150 per axle for club memebers :D

[SHNIPE]

I would look up BILLAVISTA tech section on pirate 4x4 and he has a step by step on how to set-up gears.

just correcting for information gathering. His name is Bill "Billavista" Ansell

And heres the article hes referring to GEAR SETUP (http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Gear_Setup/) Whoops GETTODACHOPPA already posted that. DOUBLY DONE!

[TRLR8TDTJ]

What the worst you could do mess up carries and axle housing. Thats not that much money for the pease of mind and warranty.:0

Kyle

[chopped7]

He probably confused Billavista with Bob Villa. If you need tech info on your house and craftsman tools, Bob Villa would be the guy to ask.

[SHNIPE]

He probably confused Billavista with Bob Villa. If you need tech info on your house and craftsman tools, Bob Villa would be the guy to ask.

HAHA Bob Ross makes HAPPY TREES!

[SHNIPE]

What the worst you could do mess up carries and axle housing. Thats not that much money for the pease of mind and warranty.:0

Kyle

If you do your setup right and you have someone double check the gear pattern (Not like any of the shops wouldnt look at the pics you took with your digital and refuse to tell you if its a good pattern right?) then wheres the issue?

Is it time consuming? YES
Is the need to constantly be referencing your results there? Yes
Is the potential of jacking something up pretty bad there? Of course
IS it that much worse than a guy tearing down an engine for the first time, swapping in a new one and us telling him its awesome? No :D

[Huck]

Having setup bearings (that easily slip on and off the carrier), the correct bearing puller and presses will help a lot. The extra bearings comes from doing multiple axles and the tools, well the good ones cost more than you'll pay someone else to do the gears.

I've personally built multiple air and water-cooled motors. The worst that could happen there was destroying the powerplant of the vehicle or motorcycle I was building. For every V-twin I put together, I literally was risking my life riding it, if I did shotty work. With that in mind, I've always paid a professional, with the correct tools, to set up my gears. My thinking was that for the five sets of gears, I paid for. I wouldn't even have covered the cost of the necessary tools. I just didn't have enough of a need to buy the equipment for a minimal amount of gear changes.

I'm all for doing it yourself and if you've got the cash for the puller, press, possible case spreader, dial/runout gauges, and the time to make some installer set up bearings, go for it. I couldn't justilfy the cost to benefit ratio.

[chopped7]

I'm all for doing it yourself and if you've got the cash for the puller, press, possible case spreader, dial/runout gauges, and the time to make some installer set up bearings, go for it. I couldn't justilfy the cost to benefit ratio.

X2

[Easyover]

If you feel you have the mechanical aptitude, patience, and knowledge, go for it!

The next big hurdle is having the proper tools. What you would spend on having them set up you could invest in tools. This makes even more sense if you plan on doing more in the future.

I've done one set myself. I read a ton on the subject and felt I had a good understanding of what I was doing. I also had access to my step dads machine shop which had all the tools needed (and then some) to do the job. It turned out well, and I put about 30K miles on those gears and they are still going in someone elses Jeep.

I have since paid someone to do two sets. It came down to time and money. I had money, didn't have the time.

[TRLR8TDTJ]

If you do your setup right and you have someone double check the gear pattern (Not like any of the shops wouldnt look at the pics you took with your digital and refuse to tell you if its a good pattern right?) then wheres the issue?

Is it time consuming? YES
Is the need to constantly be referencing your results there? Yes
Is the potential of jacking something up pretty bad there? Of course
IS it that much worse than a guy tearing down an engine for the first time, swapping in a new one and us telling him its awesome? No :D

Setting up gears is not that hard if you understand the concept of what you are doing. The hard part is borrowing or buying the correct tooling. If you are just doing gear swap and it does not require carrier change I would say do it yourself. If you buy spicer gears and that is what you have installed there is +numbers and - numbers on the head of pinion. You can look at old number and compare to new one and there is chart that tells you how much to add and subtract on pinion shims. It is as simple as that to get you close to where you need to be. I dont think you need to buy big book explaining it you can download install sheet from randy ring and pinion that sums it up. That with factory service manual and you should be good. Might even get away with just that.

Kyle

[ademster]

Bill vista, bill villia, bilavista, all the same difference

[KennethS]

My thinking was that for the five sets of gears, I paid for. I wouldn't even have covered the cost of the necessary tools. I just didn't have enough of a need to buy the equipment for a minimal amount of gear changes.

I'm all for doing it yourself and if you've got the cash for the puller, press, possible case spreader, dial/runout gauges, and the time to make some installer set up bearings, go for it. I couldn't justilfy the cost to benefit ratio.

I disagree with this (I think), but I do not know how much different a Chrysler differential is than a GM 10 or 12 bolt, so maybe there are more tools involved than I know about. Anyway, I purchased the tools and did one 10 bolt and one 12 bolt rear myself.

Tools purchased:
20 ton press - $180 from Harbor Freight (on sale)
dial indicator with magnetic base and adjustable arm - $25 from Enco Tools (online)
0-60 inch-pound torque wrench - $40 from K-D Tools (part number KD2955)

Other than a Dremel tool for cutting the old bearing off pinion head and basic hand tools, which I already had, those were all I needed to acquire for the job.
Total cost for tools specifically for doing gear changes was around $250 (plus I get to use them for other things). I figured I was money ahead after the second axle I worked on.

[lancetkenyon]

Personally, I do most of my own wrenching. Installed my own LA kit, axle swaps, axle shafts, DS, general maintainence, brakes, steering, generous usage of a sawzall:rolleyes:..............but gears are NOT one of the things I do myself. After watching Joe at Absolute do mine, I stand by my decision. It takes a special touch to do them. And Joe is definately "touched" and "special"!:D

[desertfabmotors]

If you do your setup right and you have someone double check the gear pattern (Not like any of the shops wouldnt look at the pics you took with your digital and refuse to tell you if its a good pattern right?) then wheres the issue?

Is it time consuming? YES
Is the need to constantly be referencing your results there? Yes
Is the potential of jacking something up pretty bad there? Of course
IS it that much worse than a guy tearing down an engine for the first time, swapping in a new one and us telling him its awesome? No :D



There is more to it then just a pattern, proper preload and backlash on the bearings.

[Fire Ball]

If you are pretty mechanically inclined and do most of your own work, then I agree it isn't that huge of a job. If you just change oil and tires, maybe do a few light modifications on your rig, I would take it in. If you screw it up, you run the risk of buying all the parts all over again. :D

[sunroom2004]

I had my gears done by someone claiming to know what they were doing...they said "been doing it since the 70's".

Anyway, after they did the rear install twice, I still had to take it to Todd at Desert Fab to get it done right!

Luckily I only had to pay twice for setting up the gears 3 times! And the Yukons weren't trashed after driving around 3000 miles with no pre-load. :D

[Huck]

I disagree with this (I think), but I do not know how much different a Chrysler differential is than a GM 10 or 12 bolt, so maybe there are more tools involved than I know about. Anyway, I purchased the tools and did one 10 bolt and one 12 bolt rear myself.

Tools purchased:
20 ton press - $180 from Harbor Freight (on sale)
dial indicator with magnetic base and adjustable arm - $25 from Enco Tools (online)
0-60 inch-pound torque wrench - $40 from K-D Tools (part number KD2955)

Other than a Dremel tool for cutting the old bearing off pinion head and basic hand tools, which I already had, those were all I needed to acquire for the job.
Total cost for tools specifically for doing gear changes was around $250 (plus I get to use them for other things). I figured I was money ahead after the second axle I worked on.


The bearing puller alone, for my Rubi D44 would have been + $1800. If you go to Harbor freight for your tools, you'll save some money. With 99% of tools you buy, you get what you pay for. Buy cheap= get cheap. Feel free to disagree and discuss. I know what MAC, Randy's and Snap-on get for their puller and all of the stuff to get your bearings pulled off of the carrier. That was what I was mainly basing my quote on. Harbor freight and off shore tools/tooling will save you plenty of cash, in that department..... I've tried to borrower a buddy's puller, in the past and been refused, due to its high cost. A standard three jaw puller wouldn't work with my locker. It needed a special carrier bearing puller that was and still is, big bucks (in my book). Sure you can use a dremel to cut off your bearing, but many would argue that can cause other issues, meaning that its better to use the correct puller and then clearance those bearing you just pulled off to make them 'set-up' bearings that are easily removed and replaced while you figure out the proper shims. I have done more than a little a research on the subject and stand by my original quote. As with all things in life, its rare for more than two people to see eye-to-eye. I appreciate your opinion. I'm also of the opinion that cheap tools are knuckle busters and the cost for good ones, specific to this application, were too much for me to consider buying.

[tomfooshee]

I'd take it to Absolute Offroad. Joe's prices are reasonable and you can watch and learn. Getting the lash correct etc. is critical if you don't want problems and replacing them before their time or be broke on the trail.

[tomfooshee]

Personally, I do most of my own wrenching. Installed my own LA kit, axle swaps, axle shafts, DS, general maintainence, brakes, steering, generous usage of a sawzall:rolleyes:..............but gears are NOT one of the things I do myself. After watching Joe at Absolute do mine, I stand by my decision. It takes a special touch to do them. And Joe is definately "touched" and "special"!:D

guess I should have read all the post then all I would have to do is write X2

[Fire Ball]

The expensive tool in question is designed to be able to pull a bearing without destroying it. If you are replacing the bearing, which you really should any way, it is easy enough to use a bearing spreader and a press.

[desertrubi]

Well, after reading everybody's thoughts on the subject, I think I'll have it done. Like I said at the beginning, I didn't know how to do it and if it is was that hard. Sounds like it is a pain in the butt.

[KennethS]

The bearing puller alone, for my Rubi D44 would have been + $1800.
I've never used a puller to remove a bearing, so I can't comment on that. I have used a bearing separator, though, and even a Snap On version is under $200 ( http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?item_ID=10139&group_ID=1207 ) , which is a lot less than the $1800+ you mentioned for the puller that I am unfamiliar with.


If you go to Harbor freight for your tools, you'll save some money. With 99% of tools you buy, you get what you pay for. Buy cheap= get cheap. Feel free to disagree and discuss.
No disagreement there, but all I mentioned from Harbor Freight was a 20 ton press. A press is basically a press - a frame and a hydraulic jack - so you can't really go wrong there. Plus, I never saw one of those in the Snap On, Rigid, Proto, etc., catalogs, so Harbor Freight is one of the few choices for a shop press.

I know what MAC, Randy's and Snap-on get for their puller and all of the stuff to get your bearings pulled off of the carrier. That was what I was mainly basing my quote on. Harbor freight and off shore tools/tooling will save you plenty of cash, in that department.....
Again, I agree 100%, but all I bought from Harbor Freight was a 20 ton press. Add the $170 Snap On bearing separator to my previous cost workup and you're still WAY below just the cost of the bearing puller you mentioned.

I've tried to borrower a buddy's puller, in the past and been refused, due to its high cost. A standard three jaw puller wouldn't work with my locker. It needed a special carrier bearing puller that was and still is, big bucks (in my book). Sure you can use a dremel to cut off your bearing, but many would argue that can cause other issues, meaning that its better to use the correct puller and then clearance those bearing you just pulled off to make them 'set-up' bearings that are easily removed and replaced while you figure out the proper shims.

Maybe it's my ignorance of Chrysler differentials giving me a misconception of the process. Sounds like there are carrier shims that go between the carrier bearing and carrier? That would be different from the GM stuff I am familiar with, where the shims go outside the bearing, between the bearing and the housing. On those, you really don't need to ream out an old carrier bearing for trial fitting reasons - that is done on the pinion bearing only.


I have done more than a little a research on the subject and stand by my original quote. As with all things in life, its rare for more than two people to see eye-to-eye. I appreciate your opinion. I'm gonna have to trust you on this as I have said a few times, I am not familiar with all that is involved in setting up a Chrysler differential. I am basing my viewpoint on the tools necessary for a GM differential. I just didn't figure one would be very much different than the other.

I'm also of the opinion that cheap tools are knuckle busters and the cost for good ones, specific to this application, were too much for me to consider buying. Again, I agree 100% about cheap tools. The only inexpensive item I purchased was the dial indicator, and while it was inexpensive, it is still capable of measuring within .001" (verified it against the Mitutoyo stuff at work), and is well within the needs of setting up a gear set.

[Huck]

Kenneth,
I appreciate the time you put into your response. :)
I'm not referrring to a bearing separator that you have referenced above. I will provide a picture of a clamshell separator, that is not a name brand clamshell separator. It goes for $541. You can imagine what sticking that name of Snap On can do to that price. Plus if you throw in a few more pieces and an organizational rack, it does begin to add up, even for the off market brand.
http://www.ringpinion.com/Images/Products/BearingPullerB.jpg
I also looked at Randy's ring and pinion for depth guage prices, cheap = $241, quality = $541. They also want $52 per set up bearing or you can make your own with some time and your old set of bearings. I could not use another type of bearing puller, since I've got air-actuated lockers and couldn't fit the jaws or separator as you posted, in between the air bellows and the bearing. By using your separator, in the above post, I would have destroyed my actuator. All of my prices quoted and reasons behind my decision, were based on my experience with my junk. Your mileage may vary.....

In my diff, the shims do reside between the carrier and the bearing and require the placement and removal of the bearings during set up.

[Huck]

The expensive tool in question is designed to be able to pull a bearing without destroying it. If you are replacing the bearing, which you really should any way, it is easy enough to use a bearing spreader and a press.


Yeppers, I agree with replacing the bearings. However, when you've got the air locker I have (since then, changed out the rear locker to an ARB) and shims that rest between the carrier and bearing, the clamshell separator was required. Trust me, the shop I was installing my LA lift at, popped open my rear diff and went to replace my gears (without me knowing about it). The guy doing it had my carrier on a bench and was fumbling with three jaw pullers and the simple separator shown above the clamshell. Nothing was working and he was frustrated. I then tracked down the appropriate puller, at a friend's shop. Yes, the above mentioned Joe Daro at Absolute Off Road.... Well, I couldn't exactly borrower his only puller and I asked how much one would set me back. That's when I found out the true cost of me, doing my diffs. Well, the gears were done by Joe, as I had originally intended and the other shop was forced to put my rear diff back together again, without any changes to my gears. (After they tried talking me into reusing my old bearings) At that time, the shop couldn't afford to buy the clamshell puller to finish the job they started. The shop is no longer in operation.

[KennethS]

OK, I see where you are coming from now about the difference with the locker actuator and such.

If you don't have to worry about that stuff, like with the older rigs, new Timken carrier bearings for a D44 are $25 each and for a D35 are only $13:
http://www.autozone.com/N,11201713//shopping/partTypeResultSet.htm
so cutting the old ones off with a Dremel and buying a couple new ones to use for setup bearings wouldn't set you back much at all.


I also looked at Randy's ring and pinion for depth guage prices, cheap = $241, quality = $541.
Well, I wouldn't buy an indicator at those prices unless I was going into business and needed something that was going to be used every day for a very long time. Even then, Randy's buys their indicators from someone, and getting it from that same someone instead of from Randy's would be a lot cheaper. I bought mine from Enco Tools for a LOT LESS, as in around $25. No need to buy a $200-$500 tool when a $25 one gives you the same reading.
Looking at Enco's current catalog selection shows multiple indicator/base kits for very reasonable prices, and even their Mitutoyo kit is only $166:
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=238&PMITEM=628-3040


My whole point is, if a person is inclined to do the job himself, then there are ways to do it without breaking the bank. Even in your case, you could have cut off the old bearings, bought extra carrier bearings to use as set-up bearings, and bypassed the need for an $1800+ bearing puller.

[Huck]

Kenneth,
I'm all for those who like to do the job themselves, as stated in my previous posts. This will be my last last post on the subject.

I wasn't able, nor was the shop that was trying to install my gears able to remove the original bearings without damaging the air actuator for the factory rubicon lockers (without that clamshell puller). This only applies to one side of the carrier, but it is still important to remove that bearing. With the actuator not allowing a multi-jawed puller or bearing separator in between it and the bearing, I'm at a loss as to how to get a cutoff wheel in there, as well. Bearings are easy to cut when there is room to do so. What you are saying is that it would be simple enough to press on bearings, mock the set up and then cut off the bearings, play with the shims and repeat as necessary. That's certainly cheaper than buying that puller. This all hinges on the bearing being easily cutoff, though.
Cheers