Raw Deal on Private Property?

[jpotts]

A few of us ran some Table Mesa trails this weekend, including Lower Raw Deal, and the bottom part of Upper. We turned around after the first group of obstacles. On the way out a guy in a pickup truck stopped me and told me that all of the land on the Raw Deal side of the road was privately owned and that we had been trespassing. I told him that I had been running Raw Deal for years and didn't realize that it was private property and apologized. He said no big deal, but indicated that he didn't want me to return. I couldn't find any posted signs.

I was under the impression that only the top of Upper Raw Deal was private property. Does anyone know if all of Raw Deal is now off limits? It's not one of my favorite trails, but it would be a shame if it was closed.

[My1stJeep]

As far as I know it is and including the land being mined is STL, which upper has been leased, but Lower is not part of the equation as far as I know. IT would be news to me that it is private property. Can someone who has been working on the plans up there chime in?

Sorry Edited post to change BLM to SLT, I put in the wrong land management group.

[GRUNT]

I would appreciate a list of what trails are on private property, not a map because if that got out I believe it would be detrimental to us all... Yet a list of trails and whether or not open to public would be great....
-And yes... 4 bangers rule!!! I know of 2 four bangers that kicked "widowmaker" in the nuts this weekend! Right Number 7?! :D

[rubicontrail]

Maybe we could just update the trails forum: http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/forumdisplay.php?f=73

It also would be good to include any special permitting regulations.

[Lifes A Jeep]

Maybe we could just update the trails forum: http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/forumdisplay.php?f=73

It also would be good to include any special permitting regulations.


I am not making any updates to the Raw Deal Trail Write up unless more information becomes available. If its the status quo, no need to add anything.

[1BLKJP]

As far as I know also I'm with Chris, I was in there for a bit Friday night and saw nothing to the contrary.

Jamie, did you happen to get any information on who this gentleman was? Was he with the mining company? MCSO?

[jpotts]

As far as I know also I'm with Chris, I was in there for a bit Friday night and saw nothing to the contrary.

Jamie, did you happen to get any information on who this gentleman was? Was he with the mining company? MCSO?

He asserted that he was somehow connected to the mining company. He was wearing a workshirt with the name "Dave" sewn onto it.

I was a bit worried that I may be inadvertently trespassing on private property (and we were finished running the trail), so I decided not to ask him too many questions.

[Number 7]

-And yes... 4 bangers rule!!! I know of 2 four bangers that kicked "widowmaker" in the nuts this weekend! Right Number 7?! :D

Heck yeah, 4 Bangers Rule! I was the only one in our group to finish the Rubicon Trail without a panicking about running out of gas. I still had half a tank, everybody else was sucking fumes.

http://inlinethumb10.webshots.com/21577/2495038640100085335S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG] (http://family.webshots.com/photo/2495038640100085335WffXAA)

Not only that, I can mow down an elk & still drive it home! Heh, heh, heh.

George

[Sandee McCullen]

A few of us ran some Table Mesa trails this weekend, including Lower Raw Deal, and the bottom part of Upper. We turned around after the first group of obstacles. On the way out a guy in a pickup truck stopped me and told me that all of the land on the Raw Deal side of the road was privately owned and that we had been trespassing. I told him that I had been running Raw Deal for years and didn't realize that it was private property and apologized. He said no big deal, but indicated that he didn't want me to return. I couldn't find any posted signs.

I was under the impression that only the top of Upper Raw Deal was private property. Does anyone know if all of Raw Deal is now off limits? It's not one of my favorite trails, but it would be a shame if it was closed.

Raw Deal is on State Trust Land. The surface rights are STL; the mineral rights are BLM. When the lease was granted 5-6 years ago there was a problem re "who" has jurisdiction of the lease. As far as I remember ASLD holds the lease. Regarding someone saying it was "private" we need to remember that most lease holders (mining and grazing) feel they OWN the land with a lease. Not so.........

Everyone running Raw Deal needs to hold a State Land Recreation Permit !!!!

There are many, many trails that are on state trust land or you must cross state trust lands to get to your chosen trail. Off the top of my head I know Twisted is on Private; Coke Ovens is on private; and the entire area around Gillette is private. You have to cross pieces of private to do several trails in both Florence Jct. & Table Mesa. Maps will soon be available at the BLM State Office (Public Lands Information Center) located in the Phelps Dodge building on the corner of Washington and 1st Street. Lower Ajax & Raw Deal are on STL but there is no way into Florence Junction where you don't travel across STL somewhere.

[jpotts]

Raw Deal is on State Trust Land. The surface rights are STL; the mineral rights are BLM. When the lease was granted 5-6 years ago there was a problem re "who" has jurisdiction of the lease. As far as I remember ASLD holds the lease. Regarding someone saying it was "private" we need to remember that most lease holders (mining and grazing) feel they OWN the land with a lease. Not so.........

Everyone running Raw Deal needs to hold a State Land Recreation Permit !!!!

There are many, many trails that are on state trust land or you must cross state trust lands to get to your chosen trail. Off the top of my head I know Twisted is on Private; Coke Ovens is on private; and the entire area around Gillette is private. You have to cross pieces of private to do several trails in both Florence Jct. & Table Mesa. Maps will soon be available at the BLM State Office (Public Lands Information Center) located in the Phelps Dodge building on the corner of Washington and 1st Street. Lower Ajax & Raw Deal are on STL but there is no way into Florence Junction where you don't travel across STL somewhere.

Sandee,

Thanks for helping to clear things up.

[GRUNT]

Sandee,

Thanks for helping to clear things up.

Yes, x2

[zman]

So if someone is leasing the land can you still use it. Depending on the type of use there maybe a liablility on the leased land so the company with the lease may not want anyone on it.

zman

[Sandee McCullen]

So if someone is leasing the land can you still use it. Depending on the type of use there maybe a liablility on the leased land so the company with the lease may not want anyone on it.

zman

The actual "leased" area (Upper Raw Deal) can be closed to recreation use but when this first started the leasee had no problem with the use of Upper RD so long as we didn't interfer with activity or go within fencing. If they don't want us on Upper we need to abide by that but Lower is ok.

[Robert Nevada]

What's the deal?


RECREATIONAL ACTIVITIES ALLOWED ON STATE LANDS WITH A PERMIT INCLUDE:

• Hiking, horseback riding, bicycling, picnics, photography, bird watching, sightseeing

• Camping (restricted to 14-day limit per year)

•Off highway vehicle use (restricted to existing roads and trails)


RECREATIONAL ACTIVITIES NOT ALLOWED ON STATE LANDS UNDER ANY PERMIT:

• Target shooting, paint ball games, fireworks

• Non-recreational or extended camping

• Recreational flying

• Visiting prehistoric and historic cultural or archaeological sites

• Metal detecting

• Collecting or removing natural products (rocks, stone, soil, fossils, mineral specimens, cacti, saguaro or cholla skeletons, plants (live or dead), or firewood for home use

•Rock crawling or rock hopping

[Sandee McCullen]

What's the deal?


RECREATIONAL ACTIVITIES ALLOWED ON STATE LANDS WITH A PERMIT INCLUDE:

• Hiking, horseback riding, bicycling, picnics, photography, bird watching, sightseeing

• Camping (restricted to 14-day limit per year)

•Off highway vehicle use (restricted to existing roads and trails)


RECREATIONAL ACTIVITIES NOT ALLOWED ON STATE LANDS UNDER ANY PERMIT:

• Target shooting, paint ball games, fireworks

• Non-recreational or extended camping

• Recreational flying

• Visiting prehistoric and historic cultural or archaeological sites

• Metal detecting

• Collecting or removing natural products (rocks, stone, soil, fossils, mineral specimens, cacti, saguaro or cholla skeletons, plants (live or dead), or firewood for home use

•Rock crawling or rock hopping

You're reading it right............. State Land does not recognize trails in washes or over "rock gardens" or rock outcroppings. If there happens to be "rocks" on an existing trail this is ok.

This "NO Rock crawling, rock hopping" is the result of a guy by the name of Brad Geeck (actually pronounced geck but better fitting as it looks) because a couple of years ago W.E. Rock hosted an event on some land north of Congress AZ that turned out to be 40 acres of State Trust Lands...... not private as we had been told. What happened is a boulder mining operation had a lease to BLAST and haul out HUGE boulders and he felt he could "sublet" for whatever other use he wanted. Wrong. As it turned out the bordering land owner originally had a fit about the vehicles and action happening so he called the State Land Dept. and complained. Brad went out on Monday following the event and felt the OHV event had graded the area and accused them of killing saguaro because they drove over boulders that would be rammed into the roots of the saguaros thusly killing them. It didn't matter that the mining operation were literally blasting 40 foot deep holes and the BIG equipment in and out did the damage. Long story short Brad tried assessing W.E. Rock $18,000.00 in fines for damage and the lessee thousands more. One week after the event the entire area was blasted. Brad questioned me 3 or 4 times and then immediately would call Rich from W.E. Rock to question him with an intent to cross one of us up. He continued for a year with the threats but in the meantime convinced ASLD to add into their permit the No Rock Hopping/Crawling clause to eliminate Rock Crawling Events more than anything. The following year we were on the private property adjoining the State Trust property (yes, the one that originally complained). The owner made a special road into the property for W.E. Rock so no one had to traverse State Trust Lands. Brad invited himself, refused to pay entry, and outright threatened Rich. I walked into the issue when he was threatening Rich in front of his family and spectators that "he (Rich) had better be in his office on Monday morning with checkbook in hand". Later.......... Rich was not in Brads office on Monday morning but I certainly was. There have been no more threats or harassment but the Rock Crawling rule does stand. Right now the ASLD is NOT on best standing with any organization and they may well push themselves out of the so called "permit" totally. If they don't straighten out they will receive NOTHING from the OHV Bill (aka Copper Sticker) that will resubmit to legislation in 2008.

[Robert Nevada]

Thanks Sandee.

That one always made me think WTF, is this a "catch 22" or what?

[Fire Ball]

When this original thread started, JPOTTS was warned they were trespassing. It may well be that the person who told him this just assumed that they, like a lot of people on State land, didn't have a permit and told him he didn't belong there.

I may be wrong but isn't the permit supposed to be in plain site? I'm to lazy to go out and read mine :)

[Papa Mo]

When this original thread started, JPOTTS was warned they were trespassing. It may well be that the person who told him this just assumed that they, like a lot of people on State land, didn't have a permit and told him he didn't belong there.

I may be wrong but isn't the permit supposed to be in plain site? I'm to lazy to go out and read mine :)

permit is supposed to hang on rear view also must have paperwork that shows it is vaild (paid)with you also.

[Fire Ball]

I'm guilty of not displaying it because with my rig all opened up it would blow away :(

[Sandee McCullen]

The "window flag" is NOT the permit and is not required as part of the permit. This flag simply shows that a parked vehicle is legal to eliminate the problem of getting a citation and then having to later prove you did have a permit. The permit stays with the person....... the flag stays with the tow vehicle or with the vehicle if parked. It is not to be hanging in a moving vehicle on trail.

[Fire Ball]

OK thanks

[jpotts]

When this original thread started, JPOTTS was warned they were trespassing. It may well be that the person who told him this just assumed that they, like a lot of people on State land, didn't have a permit and told him he didn't belong there.

I may be wrong but isn't the permit supposed to be in plain site? I'm to lazy to go out and read mine :)

The guy that approached me had driven his pickup truck to the end of the trail, and appeared to be waiting for us. He told me specifically that it was private property, and claimed that it was dangerous for us to be there. I had a brief conversation with him. He did not appear to be a LEO of any sort, and didn't mention permits at all.

[Allen]

The guy that approached me had driven his pickup truck to the end of the trail, and appeared to be waiting for us. He told me specifically that it was private property, and claimed that it was dangerous for us to be there. I had a brief conversation with him. He did not appear to be a LEO of any sort, and didn't mention permits at all.

I would have asked him who owned it!

[jpotts]

I would have asked him who owned it!

We were done running the trail, and I was worried that it actually was on private property. I didn't want to cause any trouble, so I just told him that we would be leaving.

[Papa Mo]

The "window flag" is NOT the permit and is not required as part of the permit. This flag simply shows that a parked vehicle is legal to eliminate the problem of getting a citation and then having to later prove you did have a permit. The permit stays with the person....... the flag stays with the tow vehicle or with the vehicle if parked. It is not to be hanging in a moving vehicle on trail.

Thanks for clearing that up Sandee..:)

[YGOHOME]

We were done running the trail, and I was worried that it actually was on private property. I didn't want to cause any trouble, so I just told him that we would be leaving.

you did the right thing Jamie. I was wondering what that guy was saying to you up there when we all stopped on our way out but I forgot to ask you about it later.

Okay, now I need to get a STL permit... guess I'll do some googling unless someone can tell me where to get one. Thx

[SHNIPE]

you did the right thing Jamie. I was wondering what that guy was saying to you up there when we all stopped on our way out but I forgot to ask you about it later.

Okay, now I need to get a STL permit... guess I'll do some googling unless someone can tell me where to get one. Thx

State Land Permit Applications available online :D (http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?t=8687)