blooddrive
01-05-2004, 08:06 PM
57402-57426
57402 From: Roger Tomas <tomasr@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 10:41am
Subject: Re: Re: Greens Screaming Foul
To say that fire is good without qualification implies this is a
black or white issue which it is definitely not. The "goodness"
of fire depends on the current state of the forests. The notion
that fire is good depends on having a healthy, thinned forest to
start with. In this situation, I'll agree that fire can be good.
But that is not the reality today. Due to the fire suppression
policies of the past, our forests are not in a healthy state.
They are clogged with undergrowth and other dead debris. And the
occurrance of droughts and other foul weather is unpredictable.
Therefore, we simply cannot currently let fires burn unchecked or
else we end up with total destruction like with the Rodeo fire.
Maybe, if we are able to effectively thin and clean up the forests,
then we can change to a policy that lets Mother Nature do her thing.
But even such a policy change would not be implemented across the
board. It would have to be rolled out area by area as thinning
and clean-ups occur.
-Roger
pebble007 wrote:
>
> As is stated in my post both to you and to joe west last week, I
> couldn't agree with you more on fires being bad. I even quoted the
> smokey the bear problem as well as instant suppression of wildfires
> as being a huge mistake in the management of our forrests. Regular
> brush fires through the forrested land even where folks live usually
> will burn to fast to ever get hot enough to burn a tree no matte what
> size it is and will even be challenged to burn a house that is well
> defended by a homeowner with a couple of garden hoses and knows how
> to clear his land. I read somewhere and (and it is driving me nuts
> that I can't find it now) that a good healthy forrest will have
> around 60 trees per acre and that right now on average apache-
> sitgreaves is sitting at about 300+ per acre. It does not matter big
> or small thats to many trees and they must be thinned - some big some
> small IMO.
> Fred I honestly hope that you don't stop posting your ideas to the
> list - this forum is for everybody. Maybe a lurker who has read our
> debate will go on to explore their own ideas and come up with
> something we never thought of.
> Josh Wooten
> 99 TJ
> --- In az_vjc@y..., FredTJ <fredtj@c...> wrote:
> > Josh, I've never said that logging should be completely banned, did
> I ?? If
> > so, it's certainly not what I meant. I believe (my believe only)
> that
> > logging should not be used to thin out wilderness areas. I also
> happen to
> > believe, very strongly, the fire in wilderness areas (everyone get
> this, not
> > around occupied areas), is simply not bad, but actually good and
> healthy for
> > the forest. That's all, nothing more, nothing less ;)
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Fred
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "pebble007" <jawooten@c...>
> > To: <az_vjc@y...>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 2:45 PM
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Greens Screaming Foul
> >
> >
> > > Fred,
> > > I can't agree more (as stated in my previous posts)but and it
> is
> > > a big but at that8) logging is a neccessary thing - how was your
> > > house built if not with some lumber. As for going overseas -
> while
> > > the lumber may go the jobs it creates are here as well as most of
> the
> > > money which is then put back into the economy you and I rely on to
> > > make our living (unless your a monk who lives in cave and only
> eats
> > > what he grows LOL!
> > > So what is the solution - I don't begin to even think I know, but
> I
> > > can't believe all of the greenies retoric and as with any
> goverment
> > > bueracracy (sp) there is definite problems with the FS. It
> probably
> > > lies somewhere in the middle.
> > > My 100-.98 worth.
> > > Josh Wooten
> > > 99 TJ
> > > --- In az_vjc@y..., "FredTJ" <fredtj@c...> wrote:
> > > > But the only areas that need "management" is the forest-urban
> > > boundaries. No
> > > > other parts of the forest need management. I taped an
> interesting
> > > thing last
> > > > night ( on the news ). One of the FS people were saying how the
> > > public icon,
> > > > Smokey the Bear, you know "only you can prevent forest fires"
> has
> > > actually
> > > > contributed to the problem, by instilling in people the thought
> > > that all
> > > > forest fires are bad.
> > > > They are NOT.... The forest needs fire. The only thing that is
> bad,
> > > or has
> > > > the potential to be bad, is fire on the forest-urban boundaries
> > > where
> > > > property and/or life is risked. This problem needs to be
> addressed,
> > > > certainly, and I'm sure that it will now. Thinning is require
> on the
> > > > boundaries, and I'm sure that soon, we'll see that happen.
> Logging
> > > > wilderness does not need to happen.
> > > > The primary reason that the forest are in the shape that they
> are
> > > today
> > > > (overgrown, too much fuel, etc), is a near century old policy of
> > > putting out
> > > > every little fire that starts.
> > > > If you look back at the Yellowstone fire, and how, "awful"
> everyone
> > > thought
> > > > it was. Well the Park is now healther (by virtually everyones
> > > vision) than
> > > > it's probably ever been in remembered history. The Park was
> really
> > > fire
> > > > starved. The FS is learning, and we are learning the hard way.
> > > > Why do you think that fire is bad ??
> > > > Regarding thinning. Logging, IMHO, is not the answer. The parts
> > > that need
> > > > thinning, again, on the forest-urban boudaries, are the trees
> that
> > > are way
> > > > over grown and way too thick. These are the smaller trees, not
> the
> > > larger
> > > > trees. The FS person last night, said the same thing, which
> > > surprised me
> > > > somewhat, as the timber industry is one of the main sources of
> > > income for
> > > > the FS and the timber industry is the one that wants into the
> deeper
> > > > wilderness areas and they want the big trees. So, logging won't
> > > remove the
> > > > fuel (which is the small trees, thick underbrush, etc). Logging
> > > will simply
> > > > remove the larger trees. It's all about money, and really
> nothing
> > > else. The
> > > > logging companies want me (through my taxes) to pay for the
> roads
> > > (that the
> > > > FS would build) so they can get to my (the National Forest
> belongs
> > > to us
> > > > all, right) forest, so that they can cut down my trees and make
> > > money for
> > > > themselves, not paying me a penny in return. To further all
> insult,
> > > much of
> > > > the timber would be sold overseas (Japan is on of the primary
> > > consumers of
> > > > American raw timber) and therefore the resource, or much of it,
> > > doesn't even
> > > > stay here.
> > > > The fires doesn't hurt the forest, even the really, really, bad
> > > ones, the
> > > > crown fires where old trees are killed, like the current fire.
> The
> > > forest
> > > > will recover and it will be healther because of it. The ideal
> > > thing is not
> > > > to have crown fires, as then there is nothing for the forest to
> > > recover
> > > > from. Regular burning doesn't hurt the trees at all, and it
> keeps
> > > everything
> > > > cleaned out. Crown fires do kill mature trees (as does logging),
> > > and in
> > > > those cases the forest does have to recover and that does take
> > > time. But
> > > > recover it will. Again, simply look a Yellowstone. Now, if we
> don't
> > > continue
> > > > to screw up, that forest will remain healthy on it's own, but it
> > > must be
> > > > allowed to burn when fires happen, except on the forest-urban
> > > boundaries.
> > > > Go back 150 years ago, or 200 years ago, before there was
> massive
> > > logging,
> > > > before every fire was being attacked. The forest were exteremely
> > > healty.
> > > > We've screwed it up. The FS service says the same thing. The
> forest
> > > has been
> > > > screwed up only during the last 100 years (almost) of us trying
> > > to "protect"
> > > > it. Smokey the Bear did more than anyone every thought that he
> > > would ;)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Fred
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...>
> > > > To: "Judith Raya" <jraya@a...>
> > > > Cc: <az_vjc@y...>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:00 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > All these discussions center around treatment of the wildland-
> > > urban
> > > > > interface. They say nothing about the rest of the forest
> where
> > > the
> > > > > environmentalists continually push for more wilderness and
> > > roadless
> > > > > designations.
> > > > >
> > > > > Speak out both sides of their mouths, the environmentalists
> do.
> > > (yoda)
> > > > >
> > > > > Someone tell me - am I off base here or am I seeing through
> their
> > > > > smoke screen?
> > > > >
> > > > > -Roger
> > > > >
> > > > > Judith Raya wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Good day from the PCCFMU,
> > > > > > > The Center for Biological Diversity is wildly flailing
> about
> > > blaming
> > > > > > > everyone including the state of Arizona for the fires in
> the
> > > White
> > > > > > > Mountains. These people are so fanatical in their "love"
> of
> > > mother
> > > > > > earth
> > > > > > > that they will see her burn rather than admit to their
> > > mistakes and
> > > > > > > allow responsible land and forest management to take
> place.
> > > It is my
> > > > > > > belief that most of the leaders in the green groups are
> > > mentally ill
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > in serious need of deprograming and therapy. Their "love"
> of
> > > the earth
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > is not love but an unhealthy obsession. What they
> essentially
> > > do is
> > > > > > > stalk their earth love and anyone who may have divergent
> > > interests or
> > > > > > > uses for it other than their own. Burning, terrorizing,
> > > intimidation,
> > > > > > > obstruction and litigation are their means to "protect"
> her
> > > ( in
> > > > > > their
> > > > > > > sick minds) from those they state would rape and misuse
> her.
> > > > > > > It is time to clearly draw the line between good land
> > > management
> > > > > > > practices and science, and the druidic, earth worshiping
> > > fanaticism
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > is being foisted upon the people of North America by the
> green
> > > > > > > organizations across the country.
> > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > Glynn Burkhardt
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Subject:
> > > > > > > Arizona Fire Update
> > > > > > > Date:
> > > > > > > 24 Jun 2002 23:39:09 -0000
> > > > > > > From:
> > > > > > > "Center for Biological Diveristy"
> > > > > > > <center@b...>
> > > > > > > Reply-To:
> > > > > > > notice-reply-i8gkwb4r78xmbm@a...
> > > > > > > To:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > NEWS ADVISORY: Monday, June 24
> > > > > > > CONTACT: Brian Segee, (520) 623-5252 x308
> > > > > > > More Information:
> > > > > > >
> > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > STATE PRESSURED FOREST SERVICE TO HALT FUELS REDUCTION
> > > > > > > PROJECT IN RODEO BURN AREA
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > GOVERNOR HULL SCAPEGOATS ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOR LARGEST
> > > > > > > FIRES IN ARIZONA HISTORY
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As Arizona faces its largest wildfire in history with
> > > > > > > hundreds of homes destroyed and thousands of people
> > > > > > > evacuated from their homes, Governor Jane Hull has
> > > > > > > seized upon the tragedy to advance her own anti-
> environmental
> > > > > > > agenda: On Sunday, June 23rd, Hull appeared on television
> > > > > > > to blame environmentalists for the fire.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The Governor predictably failed to explain how
> > > environmentalists
> > > > > > > were to blame for the fires. Additionally, the Governor
> > > > > > > failed to mention 1) that a prescribed fire set by
> > > > > > > the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuel loads within
> > > > > > > the burned area was stopped by state intervention,
> > > > > > > 2) the vast majority of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > > > > Forests have been previously logged by the U.S. Forest
> > > > > > > Service, 3) a recent report by the Government Accounting
> > > > > > > Office (GAO) found that only 1% of Forest Service fuel
> > > > > > > reduction projects were challenged with appeals or
> > > > > > > lawsuits, and 4) a second recent report by the GAO
> > > > > > > found that the Forest Service has misdirected funds
> > > > > > > from its massive fuels reduction budget away from the
> > > > > > > protection of rural communities threatened by fire.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The Los Angeles Times recently reported that a prescribed
> > > > > > > fire set by the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuels
> > > > > > > in what is now the Rodeo-Chediski fire was stopped
> > > > > > > by unwarranted intervention by state agencies:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "When controlled burns were set recently in the Apache
> > > > > > > Sitgreaves National Forest, where the Rodeo fire now
> > > > > > > rages, nearby residents complained to state air quality
> > > > > > > officials about the smoke. The state pressured Forest
> > > > > > > Service officials to extinguish the blazes prematurely,
> > > > > > > Anderson (planner on the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > > > > Forest) said. "Other plans to start controlled burns
> > > > > > > have been blocked by litigation, he said." (17 Blazes
> > > > > > > Charring the West, Los Angeles Times, 6-23-02).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The Governor's scapegoating of environmentalists is
> > > > > > > fundamentally inaccurate. The Center for Biological
> > > > > > > Diversity (CBD), Sierra Club, Southwest Forest Alliance
> > > > > > > and other environmental organizations have long supported
> > > > > > > the use of both prescribed fire and thinning of small-
> diameter
> > > > > > > trees as the most effective methods to reduce fire
> > > > > > > danger within Southwestern ponderosa pine forests.
> > > > > > > Ironically, CBD sits on Governor's Forest Health/Fire
> > > > > > > Plan Advisory Committee, a group appointed by Jane
> > > > > > > Hull to advise governor on community protection and
> > > > > > > forest restoration issues and to make recommendations
> > > > > > > on where to spend National Fire Plan funds. We also
> > > > > > > are on Senator Bingaman's (D-NM) Community Forest
> Restoration
> > > > > > > Program Advisory Committee, which is charged with
> distribution
> > > > > > > of $ 5 million annually to rural communities for forest
> > > > > > > restoration and community protection.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "The Governor is opportunistically and cynically using
> > > > > > > this on-going tragedy to further an anti-environmental
> > > > > > > agenda," stated Brian Segee with CBD. "Not only do
> > > > > > > we strongly support community protection efforts such
> > > > > > > as wildland-urban interface treatments, prescribed
> > > > > > > burning and small-diameter thinning, we are deeply
> > > > > > > involved in on-going collaborative and governmental
> > > > > > > efforts to make such goals a reality."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Independent studies conducted by the federal government
> > > > > > > also directly contradict charges that environmental
> > > > > > > organizations are preventing needed fuels reduction
> > > > > > > projects from being completed. As stated in an August
> > > > > > > 2001 report by the Government Accounting Office (GAO),
> > > > > > > an independent investigative branch of Congress:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "In summary, as of July 18, 2001, the Forest Service
> > > > > > > has completed the necessary environmental analysis
> > > > > > > and had decided to implement 1,671 hazardous fuel
> reduction
> > > > > > > projects in fiscal year 2001. Of these projects, 20
> > > > > > > (about 1 percent) had been appealed and none had been
> > > > > > > litigated. Appellants included environmental groups,
> > > > > > > recreation groups, private industry interests, and
> > > > > > > individuals."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Under the National Fire Plan, passed in the wake of
> > > > > > > 2000's intense fire season, the Forest Service and
> > > > > > > other federal agencies were given over $2 billion
> > > > > > > to thin brush and small-diameter trees, with an emphasis
> > > > > > > on community protection. GAO research has concluded
> > > > > > > that the Forest Service could not account for how this
> > > > > > > money was being spent. In a January 2002 GAO report
> > > > > > > entitled "Severe Wildland Fires: Leadership and
> Accountability
> > > > > > > Needed to Reduce Risks to Communities and Resources,"
> > > > > > > it is stated:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Over a year after the Congress substantially increased
> > > > > > > funds to reduce hazardous fuels, the federal effort
> > > > > > > still lacks clearly defined and effective leadership
> > > > > > > . . .it is not possible to determine if the $796 million
> > > > > > > appropriated for hazardous fuels reduction in fiscal
> > > > > > > years 2001 and 2002 is targeted to the communities
> > > > > > > and other areas at highest risk of severe wildland
> > > > > > > fires."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Finally, forgotten in the Governor's continued and
> > > > > > > escalating attack against environmentalists is the
> > > > > > > fact that almost all of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > > > > Forests where the two fires are burning has been
> intensively
> > > > > > > logged. Almost no area along the relatively flat and
> > > > > > > easily accessible Mogollon Rim has been spared from
> > > > > > > logging.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For more information,
> > > > > > >
> > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > (end)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
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ADVERTISEMENT
57403 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 10:51am
Subject: RE: Rocky Point trip
This is probably more true than I want to admit. The 35 MTR's at 8# of
pressure performed excellent. I didn't use the lockers much. I didn't get in
some real soft sand, locked up both the front and rear just to see the sand
spraying from all four tires.
--James
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TRobertsRN [mailto:TRobertsRN@e...]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 8:57 AM
> To: James Towle
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Rocky Point trip
>
>
> Third, what is so hard about "Competition Hill"? In the time
> before bigger
> tires, when 31x 10.5 was about the largest you could get the far
> left of the
> hill near the rocks would get some people stuck at times. The jeep I used
> to own (83 J10) never got stuck there with 31x10.5 tires. I have not been
> up it since 88 so I don't know if that part is even soft any more. I have
> only been there a few times since then but I hope to change that once my
> Cherokee or a new one is up and running.
>
> Thomas Roberts
> 78 Cherokee WT
> 360,TH400, part time kit,
> A/C, 3" lift, 33x12.5 AT'S
> Gilbert, Arizona
>
>
57404 From: David Withers <dwithers@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 10:49am
Subject: RE: Do you think it will rain tonight?
Are you kidding, it doesn't rain in Arizona
-----Original Message-----
From: tj_angel_113 [mailto:angel_113_@h...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:54 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Do you think it will rain tonight?
Do you guys see those dark clouds??? I really hope it rains.
Angel
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57405 From: Mitch Woodward <mitchwoodward@h...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 10:50am
Subject: Relief Run Flier
Here's what I put together (see attachment). Thanks to Andrew Duncan for letting me use the sticker graphic.
Mitch
Attachment: (application/msword) Relief Flier.doc [not stored]
57406 From: graymatterwj <graymatterwj@y...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 10:51am
Subject: Fire relief run- another red shirt event???
The red shirts added a very nice touch to the land use meeting. It
would also be nice to coordinate a designated colored shirt so when
we are unloading supplies we still look like well organized group.
Comments/suggestions...
Brian aka Gray Matter aka the anti-tree hugger environmental attorney
57407 From: David Withers <dwithers@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 10:58am
Subject: RE: re: Payson run
what about meeting on the bee-line just past shea in fountain hills.
-----Original Message-----
From: The Acuna Family [mailto:mkacuna@cox.net]
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 8:43 AM
To: Chatfield, Mike; 'AzVJC Website'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] re: Payson run
Thanks Mike. People can contact me directly at my e-mail. We still need to come up with a good meeting place and time.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Chatfield, Mike
To: 'The Acuna Family' ; 'AzVJC Website'
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 8:35 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] re: Payson run
Done. Big Red Letters! :)
Sorry I didn't see this until this morning!
- Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: The Acuna Family [mailto:mkacuna@cox.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 7:20 PM
To: AzVJC Website
Subject: [az_vjc] re: Payson run
Does anyone know a quick way to get a hold of Mike Chatfield? The local radio stations are mentioning our run and people are not able to find the info on the home page. I was hoping he could put a little link on the home page to the run information.
Mike
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57408 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 10:37am
Subject: [TR] Unspecified - Saturday, June 29, 2002
Hello All,
Josh Wooten is leading an Unspecified trail run on Saturday, June 29, 2002.
When: 5:15 meet 5:30 rollout (if you think we need to meet earlier than this let me know and I will change the time)
Where: Chevron station at 51st avenue and south of the 101.
Rating: None
Length:
CB Channel: 4
This is an opportunity for the west siders to meet up and jeepavan out to the beeline and shea to meet up with the rest of the Payson Fire Relief folks.
Click Here To Add Your Name to the Sign Up List
Thank You,
- The AzVJC Website
57409 From: David Withers <dwithers@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:00am
Subject: RE: Payson Relief run
We're 47th and Glendale How about meeting at the target at I-17 and 101
-----Original Message-----
From: pebble007 [mailto:jawooten@c...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 8:51 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Payson Relief run
Hey \/\/est siders,
Anybody want to get together and jeepavan over to the meeting place
(when they post one - hint hint) saturday morning. I am at 67th ave
and the 101.
Let me know.
Josh Wooten
99TJ
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57410 From: Roger Tomas <tomasr@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:00am
Subject: Re: Greens Screaming Foul
I am an engineer too and I know most engineers don't write too good
but think I write really good and even better than most engineers and
is this a run-on sentence, yet? ;-)
-Roger
Joe W wrote:
>
> Stu,
>
> Fred is most likely an engineer... engineers have no need for paragraphs
> since very long sentences work just fine.
> <grin>
>
> Joe West
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Stu Olson [mailto:solson8@q...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 7:17 PM
> > To: 'FredTJ'; 'Roger Tomas'
> > Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
> >
> >
> > Fred, have you ever considered using paragraphs when your write?
> >
> > Stu Olson
> > www.stu-offroad.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@c...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 2:28 PM
> > To: Roger Tomas; Judith Raya
> > Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
> >
> > But the only areas that need "management" is the forest-urban
> > boundaries. No
> > other parts of the forest need management. I taped an
> > interesting thing
> > last
> > night ( on the news ). One of the FS people were saying how the public
> > icon,
> > Smokey the Bear, you know "only you can prevent forest fires" has
> > actually
> > contributed to the problem, by instilling in people the
> > thought that all
> > forest fires are bad.
> > They are NOT.... The forest needs fire. The only thing that is bad, or
> > has
> > the potential to be bad, is fire on the forest-urban boundaries where
> > property and/or life is risked. This problem needs to be addressed,
> > certainly, and I'm sure that it will now. Thinning is require on the
> > boundaries, and I'm sure that soon, we'll see that happen. Logging
> > wilderness does not need to happen.
> > The primary reason that the forest are in the shape that they
> > are today
> > (overgrown, too much fuel, etc), is a near century old policy
> > of putting
> > out
> > every little fire that starts.
> > If you look back at the Yellowstone fire, and how, "awful" everyone
> > thought
> > it was. Well the Park is now healther (by virtually everyones vision)
> > than
> > it's probably ever been in remembered history. The Park was
> > really fire
> > starved. The FS is learning, and we are learning the hard way.
> > Why do you think that fire is bad ??
> > Regarding thinning. Logging, IMHO, is not the answer. The parts that
> > need
> > thinning, again, on the forest-urban boudaries, are the trees that are
> > way
> > over grown and way too thick. These are the smaller trees, not the
> > larger
> > trees. The FS person last night, said the same thing, which
> > surprised me
> > somewhat, as the timber industry is one of the main sources of income
> > for
> > the FS and the timber industry is the one that wants into the deeper
> > wilderness areas and they want the big trees. So, logging won't remove
> > the
> > fuel (which is the small trees, thick underbrush, etc). Logging will
> > simply
> > remove the larger trees. It's all about money, and really
> > nothing else.
> > The
> > logging companies want me (through my taxes) to pay for the
> > roads (that
> > the
> > FS would build) so they can get to my (the National Forest
> > belongs to us
> > all, right) forest, so that they can cut down my trees and make money
> > for
> > themselves, not paying me a penny in return. To further all
> > insult, much
> > of
> > the timber would be sold overseas (Japan is on of the primary
> > consumers
> > of
> > American raw timber) and therefore the resource, or much of
> > it, doesn't
> > even
> > stay here.
> > The fires doesn't hurt the forest, even the really, really, bad ones,
> > the
> > crown fires where old trees are killed, like the current fire. The
> > forest
> > will recover and it will be healther because of it. The ideal
> > thing is
> > not
> > to have crown fires, as then there is nothing for the forest
> > to recover
> > from. Regular burning doesn't hurt the trees at all, and it keeps
> > everything
> > cleaned out. Crown fires do kill mature trees (as does
> > logging), and in
> > those cases the forest does have to recover and that does
> > take time. But
> > recover it will. Again, simply look a Yellowstone. Now, if we don't
> > continue
> > to screw up, that forest will remain healthy on it's own, but
> > it must be
> > allowed to burn when fires happen, except on the forest-urban
> > boundaries.
> > Go back 150 years ago, or 200 years ago, before there was massive
> > logging,
> > before every fire was being attacked. The forest were
> > exteremely healty.
> > We've screwed it up. The FS service says the same thing. The
> > forest has
> > been
> > screwed up only during the last 100 years (almost) of us trying to
> > "protect"
> > it. Smokey the Bear did more than anyone every thought that
> > he would ;)
> >
> >
> > Best,
> > Fred
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...>
> > To: "Judith Raya" <jraya@a...>
> > Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:00 AM
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
> >
> >
> > > All these discussions center around treatment of the wildland-urban
> > > interface. They say nothing about the rest of the forest where the
> > > environmentalists continually push for more wilderness and roadless
> > > designations.
> > >
> > > Speak out both sides of their mouths, the environmentalists do.
> > (yoda)
> > >
> > > Someone tell me - am I off base here or am I seeing through their
> > > smoke screen?
> > >
> > > -Roger
> > >
> > > Judith Raya wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Good day from the PCCFMU,
> > > > > The Center for Biological Diversity is wildly flailing about
> > blaming
> > > > > everyone including the state of Arizona for the fires
> > in the White
> > > > > Mountains. These people are so fanatical in their
> > "love" of mother
> > > > earth
> > > > > that they will see her burn rather than admit to their mistakes
> > and
> > > > > allow responsible land and forest management to take
> > place. It is
> > my
> > > > > belief that most of the leaders in the green groups are mentally
> > ill
> > > > and
> > > > > in serious need of deprograming and therapy. Their "love" of the
> > earth
> > > >
> > > > > is not love but an unhealthy obsession. What they essentially do
> > is
> > > > > stalk their earth love and anyone who may have
> > divergent interests
> > or
> > > > > uses for it other than their own. Burning, terrorizing,
> > intimidation,
> > > > > obstruction and litigation are their means to
> > "protect" her ( in
> > > > their
> > > > > sick minds) from those they state would rape and misuse her.
> > > > > It is time to clearly draw the line between good land management
> > > > > practices and science, and the druidic, earth worshiping
> > fanaticism
> > > > that
> > > > > is being foisted upon the people of North America by the green
> > > > > organizations across the country.
> > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > Glynn Burkhardt
> > > > >
> > > > > Subject:
> > > > > Arizona Fire Update
> > > > > Date:
> > > > > 24 Jun 2002 23:39:09 -0000
> > > > > From:
> > > > > "Center for Biological Diveristy"
> > > > > <center@b...>
> > > > > Reply-To:
> > > > > notice-reply-i8gkwb4r78xmbm@a...
> > > > > To:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > NEWS ADVISORY: Monday, June 24
> > > > > CONTACT: Brian Segee, (520) 623-5252 x308
> > > > > More Information:
> > > > >
> > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > > > >
> > > > > STATE PRESSURED FOREST SERVICE TO HALT FUELS REDUCTION
> > > > > PROJECT IN RODEO BURN AREA
> > > > >
> > > > > GOVERNOR HULL SCAPEGOATS ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOR LARGEST
> > > > > FIRES IN ARIZONA HISTORY
> > > > >
> > > > > As Arizona faces its largest wildfire in history with
> > > > > hundreds of homes destroyed and thousands of people
> > > > > evacuated from their homes, Governor Jane Hull has
> > > > > seized upon the tragedy to advance her own anti-environmental
> > > > > agenda: On Sunday, June 23rd, Hull appeared on television
> > > > > to blame environmentalists for the fire.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Governor predictably failed to explain how environmentalists
> > > > > were to blame for the fires. Additionally, the Governor
> > > > > failed to mention 1) that a prescribed fire set by
> > > > > the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuel loads within
> > > > > the burned area was stopped by state intervention,
> > > > > 2) the vast majority of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > > Forests have been previously logged by the U.S. Forest
> > > > > Service, 3) a recent report by the Government Accounting
> > > > > Office (GAO) found that only 1% of Forest Service fuel
> > > > > reduction projects were challenged with appeals or
> > > > > lawsuits, and 4) a second recent report by the GAO
> > > > > found that the Forest Service has misdirected funds
> > > > > from its massive fuels reduction budget away from the
> > > > > protection of rural communities threatened by fire.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The Los Angeles Times recently reported that a prescribed
> > > > > fire set by the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuels
> > > > > in what is now the Rodeo-Chediski fire was stopped
> > > > > by unwarranted intervention by state agencies:
> > > > >
> > > > > "When controlled burns were set recently in the Apache
> > > > > Sitgreaves National Forest, where the Rodeo fire now
> > > > > rages, nearby residents complained to state air quality
> > > > > officials about the smoke. The state pressured Forest
> > > > > Service officials to extinguish the blazes prematurely,
> > > > > Anderson (planner on the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > > Forest) said. "Other plans to start controlled burns
> > > > > have been blocked by litigation, he said." (17 Blazes
> > > > > Charring the West, Los Angeles Times, 6-23-02).
> > > > >
> > > > > The Governor's scapegoating of environmentalists is
> > > > > fundamentally inaccurate. The Center for Biological
> > > > > Diversity (CBD), Sierra Club, Southwest Forest Alliance
> > > > > and other environmental organizations have long supported
> > > > > the use of both prescribed fire and thinning of small-diameter
> > > > > trees as the most effective methods to reduce fire
> > > > > danger within Southwestern ponderosa pine forests.
> > > > > Ironically, CBD sits on Governor's Forest Health/Fire
> > > > > Plan Advisory Committee, a group appointed by Jane
> > > > > Hull to advise governor on community protection and
> > > > > forest restoration issues and to make recommendations
> > > > > on where to spend National Fire Plan funds. We also
> > > > > are on Senator Bingaman's (D-NM) Community Forest Restoration
> > > > > Program Advisory Committee, which is charged with distribution
> > > > > of $ 5 million annually to rural communities for forest
> > > > > restoration and community protection.
> > > > >
> > > > > "The Governor is opportunistically and cynically using
> > > > > this on-going tragedy to further an anti-environmental
> > > > > agenda," stated Brian Segee with CBD. "Not only do
> > > > > we strongly support community protection efforts such
> > > > > as wildland-urban interface treatments, prescribed
> > > > > burning and small-diameter thinning, we are deeply
> > > > > involved in on-going collaborative and governmental
> > > > > efforts to make such goals a reality."
> > > > >
> > > > > Independent studies conducted by the federal government
> > > > > also directly contradict charges that environmental
> > > > > organizations are preventing needed fuels reduction
> > > > > projects from being completed. As stated in an August
> > > > > 2001 report by the Government Accounting Office (GAO),
> > > > > an independent investigative branch of Congress:
> > > > >
> > > > > "In summary, as of July 18, 2001, the Forest Service
> > > > > has completed the necessary environmental analysis
> > > > > and had decided to implement 1,671 hazardous fuel reduction
> > > > > projects in fiscal year 2001. Of these projects, 20
> > > > > (about 1 percent) had been appealed and none had been
> > > > > litigated. Appellants included environmental groups,
> > > > > recreation groups, private industry interests, and
> > > > > individuals."
> > > > >
> > > > > Under the National Fire Plan, passed in the wake of
> > > > > 2000's intense fire season, the Forest Service and
> > > > > other federal agencies were given over $2 billion
> > > > > to thin brush and small-diameter trees, with an emphasis
> > > > > on community protection. GAO research has concluded
> > > > > that the Forest Service could not account for how this
> > > > > money was being spent. In a January 2002 GAO report
> > > > > entitled "Severe Wildland Fires: Leadership and Accountability
> > > > > Needed to Reduce Risks to Communities and Resources,"
> > > > > it is stated:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Over a year after the Congress substantially increased
> > > > > funds to reduce hazardous fuels, the federal effort
> > > > > still lacks clearly defined and effective leadership
> > > > > . . .it is not possible to determine if the $796 million
> > > > > appropriated for hazardous fuels reduction in fiscal
> > > > > years 2001 and 2002 is targeted to the communities
> > > > > and other areas at highest risk of severe wildland
> > > > > fires."
> > > > >
> > > > > Finally, forgotten in the Governor's continued and
> > > > > escalating attack against environmentalists is the
> > > > > fact that almost all of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > > Forests where the two fires are burning has been intensively
> > > > > logged. Almost no area along the relatively flat and
> > > > > easily accessible Mogollon Rim has been spared from
> > > > > logging.
> > > > >
> > > > > For more information,
> > > > >
> http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > > >
> > > > (end)
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57411 From: David Withers <dwithers@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:02am
Subject: RE: Payson Relief Run meeting place and time: 6:30 am on Saturday at Beeline and Shea?
I agree,,, I think 7:30 or 8 would be better.
We have no A/C, but we'll manage
-----Original Message-----
From: The Acuna Family [mailto:mkacuna@c...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 9:16 AM
To: Joe.West@s...; Azvjc (E-mail)
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Payson Relief Run meeting place and time: 6:30 am
on Saturday at Beeline and Shea?
Wow! thats early..........How long do you think it will take me to get
their from Surprise? 1 1/2 hours?
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe West" <joe.west@s...>
To: "Azvjc (E-mail)" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 9:00 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Payson Relief Run meeting place and time: 6:30 am on
Saturday at Beeline and Shea?
> Hi Everyone,
>
> Unless anyone has any better suggestions... I propose that we meet at
> the Beeline Highway and Shea road in Fountain Hills at 6:30am on
> Saturday. There is a Taco Bell on the North side of Shea just West of
> the beeline highway. I think that there is enough parking in the area
> for us to use it to stage the run. If anyone knows a better (larger)
> spot in the Fountain Hills area, please speak up.
>
> Joe West
>
> "Where a calculator on the ENIAC is equipped with 18,000 vacuum tubes
> and weighs 30 tons, computers in the future may have only 1,000 vacuum
> tubes
and
> weigh only 1-1/2 tons." -Popular Mechanics, March, 1949
>
>
> Joe West
> Synopsys Applications Consultant
> 2151 East Broadway Road, Suite 106
> Tempe, Arizona 85282
>
> Office: (480) 921-3732
> Cell: (602) 524-7632
> Fax: (480) 921-8883
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57412 From: AzVJC Website <Mike@A...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:06am
Subject: [TR] Unspecified - Saturday, June 29, 2002 - Reminder
Hello All,
Mike Chatfield is leading an Unspecified trail run on Saturday, June 29, 2002.
When: Saturday June 29th 6:30am (Meet, roll out around 7am)
Where: Meet at the Taco Bell Parking Lot near Highway 87 (Beeline) and Shea Blvd in Fountain Hills.
Click Here for a Map
Rating: None
Length: 4 hours
CB Channel: 4
We are going to get as many donations of food, water, personal items, items for the pet shelters as we can and take them up to the relief area in Payson.
Non-AzVJC Members Click Here to contact someone reguarding donating supplies or for more information.
Here is the list of items needed from the Red Cross and Salvation Army:
WATER (1.5 liter bottles if possible)
Leather Gloves
Goggles
Respirators
White Cotton Socks
Hygene Products (lip balm, sunscreen, eye drops, soap, deoderant, etc.)
Granola/Trail bars
Gatorade
Games and Toys for All Ages
Bleach
Laundry Detergent
Dishwashing Detergent
Cat Litter
Canned Cat and Dog Food
Click Here To Add Your Name to the Sign Up List
Thank You,
- The AzVJC Website
57413 From: David Withers <dwithers@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:06am
Subject: RE: [TR] Unspecified - Saturday, June 29, 2002
could you move this farther east to say the target
-----Original Message-----
From: AzVJC Website [mailto:azvjc@azvjc.org]
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 5:38 PM
To: AzVJC
Subject: [az_vjc] [TR] Unspecified - Saturday, June 29, 2002
Hello All,
Josh Wooten is leading an Unspecified trail run on Saturday, June 29, 2002.
When: 5:15 meet 5:30 rollout (if you think we need to meet earlier than this let me know and I will change the time)
Where: Chevron station at 51st avenue and south of the 101.
Rating: None
Length:
CB Channel: 4
This is an opportunity for the west siders to meet up and jeepavan out to the beeline and shea to meet up with the rest of the Payson Fire Relief folks.
Click Here To Add Your Name to the Sign Up List
Thank You,
- The AzVJC Website
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
57414 From: Chatfield, Mike <Mike@A...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:08am
Subject: RE: Mike... can you please fix a Misspelling on the Pays on run on our web page?
I guess my fingers don't spell that word very well. :)
- Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe West [mailto:joe.west@s...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 9:28 AM
To: Azvjc (E-mail)
Subject: [az_vjc] Mike... can you please fix a Misspelling on the Payson
run on our web page?
The word "Regaurding" is used a number of times... the correct spelling is
"Regarding"
If we send a bunch of people to this link, I'd hate to have this misspelling
in BIG RED LETTERS. <grin>
Thanks Mike,
Joe West
"Where a calculator on the ENIAC is equipped with 18,000 vacuum tubes and
weighs 30 tons, computers in the future may have only 1,000 vacuum tubes and
weigh only 1-1/2 tons." -Popular Mechanics, March, 1949
Joe West
Synopsys Applications Consultant
2151 East Broadway Road, Suite 106
Tempe, Arizona 85282
Office: (480) 921-3732
Cell: (602) 524-7632
Fax: (480) 921-8883
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57415 From: David Withers <dwithers@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:09am
Subject: Someone wanted to borrow my speed sensor today.
I forgot your name, and never got your address.
David R. W. Withers
Desk: 480.551.4667
Mobile: 480.215.6992
57416 From: Joe West <joe.west@s...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:09am
Subject: RE: Payson Relief Run meeting place and time: 6:30 am on Saturday at Beeline and Shea?
I'm fine with whatever everyone wants... I think that 8 is a bit late... how
about we shoot for leaving at 8 and everyone plan on being at the meeting
site at 7:30?
Outside temperatures are likely to be in excess of 110 degrees on Saturday,
so an early start and finish will be good for those Jeepers without
air-conditioning... I'm sure it won't be too difficult to wake up a little
early one day.
Unless anyone has great difficulties, how about 7:30am. I will be there
earlier anyway just to stand around and shoot the breeze..
Joe West
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Withers [mailto:dwithers@a...]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:03 AM
> To: 'The Acuna Family'; Joe.West@s...; 'Azvjc (E-mail)'
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Payson Relief Run meeting place and
> time: 6:30 am
> on Saturday at Beeline and Shea?
>
>
> I agree,,, I think 7:30 or 8 would be better.
> We have no A/C, but we'll manage
>
57417 From: David Withers <dwithers@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:13am
Subject: RE: Payson Relief Run meeting place and time: 6:30 am on Saturday at Beeline and Shea?
Thank you!!!!!
It's going to take me at least an hour to get there so I really
appreciate us moving the time.
In addition to myself,,, I think we have some Tucson folk coming
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe West [mailto:Joe.West@s...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:10 AM
To: 'David Withers'; 'The Acuna Family'; Joe.West@s...; 'Azvjc
(E-mail)'
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Payson Relief Run meeting place and time: 6:30 am
on Saturday at Beeline and Shea?
I'm fine with whatever everyone wants... I think that 8 is a bit late...
how about we shoot for leaving at 8 and everyone plan on being at the
meeting site at 7:30? Outside temperatures are likely to be in excess of
110 degrees on Saturday, so an early start and finish will be good for
those Jeepers without air-conditioning... I'm sure it won't be too
difficult to wake up a little early one day.
Unless anyone has great difficulties, how about 7:30am. I will be there
earlier anyway just to stand around and shoot the breeze..
Joe West
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Withers [mailto:dwithers@a...]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:03 AM
> To: 'The Acuna Family'; Joe.West@s...; 'Azvjc (E-mail)'
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Payson Relief Run meeting place and
> time: 6:30 am
> on Saturday at Beeline and Shea?
>
>
> I agree,,, I think 7:30 or 8 would be better.
> We have no A/C, but we'll manage
>
57418 From: azcj <azcj@y...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:14am
Subject: Re: Payson Relief Run meeting place and time: 6:30 am on Saturday at Beeline and Shea?
That sounds better to me, too. Maybe meet in Fountain Hills at 7:30
and roll out at 8:00. I think more people would make the trip that
way. I know I'd rather deal with a few degrees more heat on the way
back into town than get up at 5am on a Saturday, or earlier for those
on the far westside.
-Scott E.
--- In az_vjc@y..., "David Withers" <dwithers@a...> wrote:
> I agree,,, I think 7:30 or 8 would be better.
> We have no A/C, but we'll manage
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The Acuna Family [mailto:mkacuna@c...]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 9:16 AM
> To: Joe.West@s...; Azvjc (E-mail)
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Payson Relief Run meeting place and time:
6:30 am
> on Saturday at Beeline and Shea?
>
>
> Wow! thats early..........How long do you think it will take me to
get
> their from Surprise? 1 1/2 hours?
>
> Mike
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe West" <joe.west@s...>
> To: "Azvjc (E-mail)" <az_vjc@y...>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 9:00 AM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Payson Relief Run meeting place and time: 6:30 am
on
> Saturday at Beeline and Shea?
>
>
> > Hi Everyone,
> >
> > Unless anyone has any better suggestions... I propose that we
meet at
> > the Beeline Highway and Shea road in Fountain Hills at 6:30am on
> > Saturday. There is a Taco Bell on the North side of Shea just
West of
> > the beeline highway. I think that there is enough parking in the
area
> > for us to use it to stage the run. If anyone knows a better
(larger)
> > spot in the Fountain Hills area, please speak up.
> >
> > Joe West
> >
> > "Where a calculator on the ENIAC is equipped with 18,000 vacuum
tubes
> > and weighs 30 tons, computers in the future may have only 1,000
vacuum
>
> > tubes
> and
> > weigh only 1-1/2 tons." -Popular Mechanics, March, 1949
> >
> >
> > Joe West
> > Synopsys Applications Consultant
> > 2151 East Broadway Road, Suite 106
> > Tempe, Arizona 85282
> >
> > Office: (480) 921-3732
> > Cell: (602) 524-7632
> > Fax: (480) 921-8883
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57419 From: pebble007 <jawooten@c...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:15am
Subject: Re: [TR] Unspecified - Saturday, June 29, 2002
David works for me and if the change the time on the run i will
change the meet time as well.
Josh Wooten
99TJ
--- In az_vjc@y..., "David Withers" <dwithers@a...> wrote:
> could you move this farther east to say the target
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: AzVJC Website [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 5:38 PM
> To: AzVJC
> Subject: [az_vjc] [TR] Unspecified - Saturday, June 29, 2002
>
>
>
> Hello All,
>
> Josh Wooten is leading an Unspecified trail run on Saturday, June
29,
> 2002.
>
> When: 5:15 meet 5:30 rollout (if you think we need to meet earlier
than
> this let me know and I will change the time)
> Where: Chevron station at 51st avenue and south of the 101.
> Rating: None
> Length:
> CB Channel: 4
>
> This is an opportunity for the west siders to meet up and jeepavan
out
> to the beeline and shea to meet up with the rest of the Payson Fire
> Relief folks.
>
>
>
> Click Here To Add Your <http://www.azvjc.org/default.asp?
A=1&ID=489>
> Name to the Sign Up List
>
>
>
> Thank You,
>
> - The AzVJC Website
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
57420 From: vtchopper <jasonandkatiemerrillinaz@h...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:16am
Subject: need sharkys number
hello everyone i need to get a hold of sharky for a aligment for my
buddies jeep he is installing a 2.5" lift single flex this weekend
thanks in advance
jason 99 TJ Odie
480-488-3283
57421 From: David Withers <dwithers@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:19am
Subject: RE: need sharkys number
Why not take it to Flexy and have it done (what word is derogatory
towards Sharky?) by someone who is in the trade. Flexy is the cheapest
4-wheel alignment in town. I take all my vehicles there.
David Withers
-----Original Message-----
From: vtchopper [mailto:jasonandkatiemerrillinaz@h...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:16 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] need sharkys number
hello everyone i need to get a hold of sharky for a aligment for my
buddies jeep he is installing a 2.5" lift single flex this weekend
thanks in advance
jason 99 TJ Odie
480-488-3283
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57422 From: Chatfield, Mike <Mike@A...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:22am
Subject: RE: [TR] Unspecified - Saturday, June 29, 2002 - Reminde r
OOPS.. not me.. I just had the website send out a reminder... Guess I have a "bug" in the code..
-----Original Message-----
From: AzVJC Website [mailto:Mike@AzChatfield.net]
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 6:06 PM
To: AzVJC
Subject: [az_vjc] [TR] Unspecified - Saturday, June 29, 2002 - Reminder
Hello All,
Mike Chatfield is leading an Unspecified trail run on Saturday, June 29, 2002.
57423 From: Roger Tomas <tomasr@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:24am
Subject: Re: Payson Relief run
I might be interested. I'm at 39th Ave and Happy Valley.
My wife and kids will be tagging along in the Volvo too.
-Roger
pebble007 wrote:
>
> Hey \/\/est siders,
> Anybody want to get together and jeepavan over to the meeting place
> (when they post one - hint hint) saturday morning. I am at 67th ave
> and the 101.
> Let me know.
> Josh Wooten
> 99TJ
57424 From: <msa12171@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 7:31am
Subject: OFFICIAL MEETING TIME AND PLACE
As Joe suggested, the Taco Bell at Shea and 87, at 7:00am. I've notified one radio station (I know someone) about this to see if we can get some coverage in hopes that some people will meet there to donate or help. If you can't be there, here is the location of the shelter:
Rim Country Middle School
304 S Meadow St.
Payson 85541
It is west of 87 and south of 260. Take 87 north to Bonita St. Turn left (west) to Meadow St., then go right (north) to the school. I'm trying to notify them of our arrival.
You can get a map from Mapquest.com
Any questions e-mail me.
Mike Anderson
57425 From: pebble007 <jawooten@c...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:32am
Subject: Re: Payson Relief run
Roger,
There's a run posted for the meet up.
Josh Wooten
99 TJ
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...> wrote:
> I might be interested. I'm at 39th Ave and Happy Valley.
> My wife and kids will be tagging along in the Volvo too.
>
> -Roger
>
> pebble007 wrote:
> >
> > Hey \/\/est siders,
> > Anybody want to get together and jeepavan over to the meeting
place
> > (when they post one - hint hint) saturday morning. I am at 67th
ave
> > and the 101.
> > Let me know.
> > Josh Wooten
> > 99TJ
57426 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:43am
Subject: RE: Fire relief run- another red shirt event???
Hmmm.....how about red? I just happen to have one of those shirts....its a
dead ringer to the one I had on during the last land use meeting! LOL!!!!!
TC!
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: graymatterwj [mailto:graymatterwj@y...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 10:52 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Fire relief run- another red shirt event???
The red shirts added a very nice touch to the land use meeting. It
would also be nice to coordinate a designated colored shirt so when
we are unloading supplies we still look like well organized group.
Comments/suggestions...
Brian aka Gray Matter aka the anti-tree hugger environmental attorney
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57402 From: Roger Tomas <tomasr@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 10:41am
Subject: Re: Re: Greens Screaming Foul
To say that fire is good without qualification implies this is a
black or white issue which it is definitely not. The "goodness"
of fire depends on the current state of the forests. The notion
that fire is good depends on having a healthy, thinned forest to
start with. In this situation, I'll agree that fire can be good.
But that is not the reality today. Due to the fire suppression
policies of the past, our forests are not in a healthy state.
They are clogged with undergrowth and other dead debris. And the
occurrance of droughts and other foul weather is unpredictable.
Therefore, we simply cannot currently let fires burn unchecked or
else we end up with total destruction like with the Rodeo fire.
Maybe, if we are able to effectively thin and clean up the forests,
then we can change to a policy that lets Mother Nature do her thing.
But even such a policy change would not be implemented across the
board. It would have to be rolled out area by area as thinning
and clean-ups occur.
-Roger
pebble007 wrote:
>
> As is stated in my post both to you and to joe west last week, I
> couldn't agree with you more on fires being bad. I even quoted the
> smokey the bear problem as well as instant suppression of wildfires
> as being a huge mistake in the management of our forrests. Regular
> brush fires through the forrested land even where folks live usually
> will burn to fast to ever get hot enough to burn a tree no matte what
> size it is and will even be challenged to burn a house that is well
> defended by a homeowner with a couple of garden hoses and knows how
> to clear his land. I read somewhere and (and it is driving me nuts
> that I can't find it now) that a good healthy forrest will have
> around 60 trees per acre and that right now on average apache-
> sitgreaves is sitting at about 300+ per acre. It does not matter big
> or small thats to many trees and they must be thinned - some big some
> small IMO.
> Fred I honestly hope that you don't stop posting your ideas to the
> list - this forum is for everybody. Maybe a lurker who has read our
> debate will go on to explore their own ideas and come up with
> something we never thought of.
> Josh Wooten
> 99 TJ
> --- In az_vjc@y..., FredTJ <fredtj@c...> wrote:
> > Josh, I've never said that logging should be completely banned, did
> I ?? If
> > so, it's certainly not what I meant. I believe (my believe only)
> that
> > logging should not be used to thin out wilderness areas. I also
> happen to
> > believe, very strongly, the fire in wilderness areas (everyone get
> this, not
> > around occupied areas), is simply not bad, but actually good and
> healthy for
> > the forest. That's all, nothing more, nothing less ;)
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Fred
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "pebble007" <jawooten@c...>
> > To: <az_vjc@y...>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 2:45 PM
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Greens Screaming Foul
> >
> >
> > > Fred,
> > > I can't agree more (as stated in my previous posts)but and it
> is
> > > a big but at that8) logging is a neccessary thing - how was your
> > > house built if not with some lumber. As for going overseas -
> while
> > > the lumber may go the jobs it creates are here as well as most of
> the
> > > money which is then put back into the economy you and I rely on to
> > > make our living (unless your a monk who lives in cave and only
> eats
> > > what he grows LOL!
> > > So what is the solution - I don't begin to even think I know, but
> I
> > > can't believe all of the greenies retoric and as with any
> goverment
> > > bueracracy (sp) there is definite problems with the FS. It
> probably
> > > lies somewhere in the middle.
> > > My 100-.98 worth.
> > > Josh Wooten
> > > 99 TJ
> > > --- In az_vjc@y..., "FredTJ" <fredtj@c...> wrote:
> > > > But the only areas that need "management" is the forest-urban
> > > boundaries. No
> > > > other parts of the forest need management. I taped an
> interesting
> > > thing last
> > > > night ( on the news ). One of the FS people were saying how the
> > > public icon,
> > > > Smokey the Bear, you know "only you can prevent forest fires"
> has
> > > actually
> > > > contributed to the problem, by instilling in people the thought
> > > that all
> > > > forest fires are bad.
> > > > They are NOT.... The forest needs fire. The only thing that is
> bad,
> > > or has
> > > > the potential to be bad, is fire on the forest-urban boundaries
> > > where
> > > > property and/or life is risked. This problem needs to be
> addressed,
> > > > certainly, and I'm sure that it will now. Thinning is require
> on the
> > > > boundaries, and I'm sure that soon, we'll see that happen.
> Logging
> > > > wilderness does not need to happen.
> > > > The primary reason that the forest are in the shape that they
> are
> > > today
> > > > (overgrown, too much fuel, etc), is a near century old policy of
> > > putting out
> > > > every little fire that starts.
> > > > If you look back at the Yellowstone fire, and how, "awful"
> everyone
> > > thought
> > > > it was. Well the Park is now healther (by virtually everyones
> > > vision) than
> > > > it's probably ever been in remembered history. The Park was
> really
> > > fire
> > > > starved. The FS is learning, and we are learning the hard way.
> > > > Why do you think that fire is bad ??
> > > > Regarding thinning. Logging, IMHO, is not the answer. The parts
> > > that need
> > > > thinning, again, on the forest-urban boudaries, are the trees
> that
> > > are way
> > > > over grown and way too thick. These are the smaller trees, not
> the
> > > larger
> > > > trees. The FS person last night, said the same thing, which
> > > surprised me
> > > > somewhat, as the timber industry is one of the main sources of
> > > income for
> > > > the FS and the timber industry is the one that wants into the
> deeper
> > > > wilderness areas and they want the big trees. So, logging won't
> > > remove the
> > > > fuel (which is the small trees, thick underbrush, etc). Logging
> > > will simply
> > > > remove the larger trees. It's all about money, and really
> nothing
> > > else. The
> > > > logging companies want me (through my taxes) to pay for the
> roads
> > > (that the
> > > > FS would build) so they can get to my (the National Forest
> belongs
> > > to us
> > > > all, right) forest, so that they can cut down my trees and make
> > > money for
> > > > themselves, not paying me a penny in return. To further all
> insult,
> > > much of
> > > > the timber would be sold overseas (Japan is on of the primary
> > > consumers of
> > > > American raw timber) and therefore the resource, or much of it,
> > > doesn't even
> > > > stay here.
> > > > The fires doesn't hurt the forest, even the really, really, bad
> > > ones, the
> > > > crown fires where old trees are killed, like the current fire.
> The
> > > forest
> > > > will recover and it will be healther because of it. The ideal
> > > thing is not
> > > > to have crown fires, as then there is nothing for the forest to
> > > recover
> > > > from. Regular burning doesn't hurt the trees at all, and it
> keeps
> > > everything
> > > > cleaned out. Crown fires do kill mature trees (as does logging),
> > > and in
> > > > those cases the forest does have to recover and that does take
> > > time. But
> > > > recover it will. Again, simply look a Yellowstone. Now, if we
> don't
> > > continue
> > > > to screw up, that forest will remain healthy on it's own, but it
> > > must be
> > > > allowed to burn when fires happen, except on the forest-urban
> > > boundaries.
> > > > Go back 150 years ago, or 200 years ago, before there was
> massive
> > > logging,
> > > > before every fire was being attacked. The forest were exteremely
> > > healty.
> > > > We've screwed it up. The FS service says the same thing. The
> forest
> > > has been
> > > > screwed up only during the last 100 years (almost) of us trying
> > > to "protect"
> > > > it. Smokey the Bear did more than anyone every thought that he
> > > would ;)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Fred
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...>
> > > > To: "Judith Raya" <jraya@a...>
> > > > Cc: <az_vjc@y...>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:00 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > All these discussions center around treatment of the wildland-
> > > urban
> > > > > interface. They say nothing about the rest of the forest
> where
> > > the
> > > > > environmentalists continually push for more wilderness and
> > > roadless
> > > > > designations.
> > > > >
> > > > > Speak out both sides of their mouths, the environmentalists
> do.
> > > (yoda)
> > > > >
> > > > > Someone tell me - am I off base here or am I seeing through
> their
> > > > > smoke screen?
> > > > >
> > > > > -Roger
> > > > >
> > > > > Judith Raya wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Good day from the PCCFMU,
> > > > > > > The Center for Biological Diversity is wildly flailing
> about
> > > blaming
> > > > > > > everyone including the state of Arizona for the fires in
> the
> > > White
> > > > > > > Mountains. These people are so fanatical in their "love"
> of
> > > mother
> > > > > > earth
> > > > > > > that they will see her burn rather than admit to their
> > > mistakes and
> > > > > > > allow responsible land and forest management to take
> place.
> > > It is my
> > > > > > > belief that most of the leaders in the green groups are
> > > mentally ill
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > in serious need of deprograming and therapy. Their "love"
> of
> > > the earth
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > is not love but an unhealthy obsession. What they
> essentially
> > > do is
> > > > > > > stalk their earth love and anyone who may have divergent
> > > interests or
> > > > > > > uses for it other than their own. Burning, terrorizing,
> > > intimidation,
> > > > > > > obstruction and litigation are their means to "protect"
> her
> > > ( in
> > > > > > their
> > > > > > > sick minds) from those they state would rape and misuse
> her.
> > > > > > > It is time to clearly draw the line between good land
> > > management
> > > > > > > practices and science, and the druidic, earth worshiping
> > > fanaticism
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > is being foisted upon the people of North America by the
> green
> > > > > > > organizations across the country.
> > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > Glynn Burkhardt
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Subject:
> > > > > > > Arizona Fire Update
> > > > > > > Date:
> > > > > > > 24 Jun 2002 23:39:09 -0000
> > > > > > > From:
> > > > > > > "Center for Biological Diveristy"
> > > > > > > <center@b...>
> > > > > > > Reply-To:
> > > > > > > notice-reply-i8gkwb4r78xmbm@a...
> > > > > > > To:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > NEWS ADVISORY: Monday, June 24
> > > > > > > CONTACT: Brian Segee, (520) 623-5252 x308
> > > > > > > More Information:
> > > > > > >
> > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > STATE PRESSURED FOREST SERVICE TO HALT FUELS REDUCTION
> > > > > > > PROJECT IN RODEO BURN AREA
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > GOVERNOR HULL SCAPEGOATS ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOR LARGEST
> > > > > > > FIRES IN ARIZONA HISTORY
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As Arizona faces its largest wildfire in history with
> > > > > > > hundreds of homes destroyed and thousands of people
> > > > > > > evacuated from their homes, Governor Jane Hull has
> > > > > > > seized upon the tragedy to advance her own anti-
> environmental
> > > > > > > agenda: On Sunday, June 23rd, Hull appeared on television
> > > > > > > to blame environmentalists for the fire.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The Governor predictably failed to explain how
> > > environmentalists
> > > > > > > were to blame for the fires. Additionally, the Governor
> > > > > > > failed to mention 1) that a prescribed fire set by
> > > > > > > the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuel loads within
> > > > > > > the burned area was stopped by state intervention,
> > > > > > > 2) the vast majority of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > > > > Forests have been previously logged by the U.S. Forest
> > > > > > > Service, 3) a recent report by the Government Accounting
> > > > > > > Office (GAO) found that only 1% of Forest Service fuel
> > > > > > > reduction projects were challenged with appeals or
> > > > > > > lawsuits, and 4) a second recent report by the GAO
> > > > > > > found that the Forest Service has misdirected funds
> > > > > > > from its massive fuels reduction budget away from the
> > > > > > > protection of rural communities threatened by fire.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The Los Angeles Times recently reported that a prescribed
> > > > > > > fire set by the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuels
> > > > > > > in what is now the Rodeo-Chediski fire was stopped
> > > > > > > by unwarranted intervention by state agencies:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "When controlled burns were set recently in the Apache
> > > > > > > Sitgreaves National Forest, where the Rodeo fire now
> > > > > > > rages, nearby residents complained to state air quality
> > > > > > > officials about the smoke. The state pressured Forest
> > > > > > > Service officials to extinguish the blazes prematurely,
> > > > > > > Anderson (planner on the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > > > > Forest) said. "Other plans to start controlled burns
> > > > > > > have been blocked by litigation, he said." (17 Blazes
> > > > > > > Charring the West, Los Angeles Times, 6-23-02).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The Governor's scapegoating of environmentalists is
> > > > > > > fundamentally inaccurate. The Center for Biological
> > > > > > > Diversity (CBD), Sierra Club, Southwest Forest Alliance
> > > > > > > and other environmental organizations have long supported
> > > > > > > the use of both prescribed fire and thinning of small-
> diameter
> > > > > > > trees as the most effective methods to reduce fire
> > > > > > > danger within Southwestern ponderosa pine forests.
> > > > > > > Ironically, CBD sits on Governor's Forest Health/Fire
> > > > > > > Plan Advisory Committee, a group appointed by Jane
> > > > > > > Hull to advise governor on community protection and
> > > > > > > forest restoration issues and to make recommendations
> > > > > > > on where to spend National Fire Plan funds. We also
> > > > > > > are on Senator Bingaman's (D-NM) Community Forest
> Restoration
> > > > > > > Program Advisory Committee, which is charged with
> distribution
> > > > > > > of $ 5 million annually to rural communities for forest
> > > > > > > restoration and community protection.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "The Governor is opportunistically and cynically using
> > > > > > > this on-going tragedy to further an anti-environmental
> > > > > > > agenda," stated Brian Segee with CBD. "Not only do
> > > > > > > we strongly support community protection efforts such
> > > > > > > as wildland-urban interface treatments, prescribed
> > > > > > > burning and small-diameter thinning, we are deeply
> > > > > > > involved in on-going collaborative and governmental
> > > > > > > efforts to make such goals a reality."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Independent studies conducted by the federal government
> > > > > > > also directly contradict charges that environmental
> > > > > > > organizations are preventing needed fuels reduction
> > > > > > > projects from being completed. As stated in an August
> > > > > > > 2001 report by the Government Accounting Office (GAO),
> > > > > > > an independent investigative branch of Congress:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "In summary, as of July 18, 2001, the Forest Service
> > > > > > > has completed the necessary environmental analysis
> > > > > > > and had decided to implement 1,671 hazardous fuel
> reduction
> > > > > > > projects in fiscal year 2001. Of these projects, 20
> > > > > > > (about 1 percent) had been appealed and none had been
> > > > > > > litigated. Appellants included environmental groups,
> > > > > > > recreation groups, private industry interests, and
> > > > > > > individuals."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Under the National Fire Plan, passed in the wake of
> > > > > > > 2000's intense fire season, the Forest Service and
> > > > > > > other federal agencies were given over $2 billion
> > > > > > > to thin brush and small-diameter trees, with an emphasis
> > > > > > > on community protection. GAO research has concluded
> > > > > > > that the Forest Service could not account for how this
> > > > > > > money was being spent. In a January 2002 GAO report
> > > > > > > entitled "Severe Wildland Fires: Leadership and
> Accountability
> > > > > > > Needed to Reduce Risks to Communities and Resources,"
> > > > > > > it is stated:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Over a year after the Congress substantially increased
> > > > > > > funds to reduce hazardous fuels, the federal effort
> > > > > > > still lacks clearly defined and effective leadership
> > > > > > > . . .it is not possible to determine if the $796 million
> > > > > > > appropriated for hazardous fuels reduction in fiscal
> > > > > > > years 2001 and 2002 is targeted to the communities
> > > > > > > and other areas at highest risk of severe wildland
> > > > > > > fires."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Finally, forgotten in the Governor's continued and
> > > > > > > escalating attack against environmentalists is the
> > > > > > > fact that almost all of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > > > > Forests where the two fires are burning has been
> intensively
> > > > > > > logged. Almost no area along the relatively flat and
> > > > > > > easily accessible Mogollon Rim has been spared from
> > > > > > > logging.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For more information,
> > > > > > >
> > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > (end)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
57403 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 10:51am
Subject: RE: Rocky Point trip
This is probably more true than I want to admit. The 35 MTR's at 8# of
pressure performed excellent. I didn't use the lockers much. I didn't get in
some real soft sand, locked up both the front and rear just to see the sand
spraying from all four tires.
--James
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TRobertsRN [mailto:TRobertsRN@e...]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 8:57 AM
> To: James Towle
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Rocky Point trip
>
>
> Third, what is so hard about "Competition Hill"? In the time
> before bigger
> tires, when 31x 10.5 was about the largest you could get the far
> left of the
> hill near the rocks would get some people stuck at times. The jeep I used
> to own (83 J10) never got stuck there with 31x10.5 tires. I have not been
> up it since 88 so I don't know if that part is even soft any more. I have
> only been there a few times since then but I hope to change that once my
> Cherokee or a new one is up and running.
>
> Thomas Roberts
> 78 Cherokee WT
> 360,TH400, part time kit,
> A/C, 3" lift, 33x12.5 AT'S
> Gilbert, Arizona
>
>
57404 From: David Withers <dwithers@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 10:49am
Subject: RE: Do you think it will rain tonight?
Are you kidding, it doesn't rain in Arizona
-----Original Message-----
From: tj_angel_113 [mailto:angel_113_@h...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:54 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Do you think it will rain tonight?
Do you guys see those dark clouds??? I really hope it rains.
Angel
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http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57405 From: Mitch Woodward <mitchwoodward@h...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 10:50am
Subject: Relief Run Flier
Here's what I put together (see attachment). Thanks to Andrew Duncan for letting me use the sticker graphic.
Mitch
Attachment: (application/msword) Relief Flier.doc [not stored]
57406 From: graymatterwj <graymatterwj@y...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 10:51am
Subject: Fire relief run- another red shirt event???
The red shirts added a very nice touch to the land use meeting. It
would also be nice to coordinate a designated colored shirt so when
we are unloading supplies we still look like well organized group.
Comments/suggestions...
Brian aka Gray Matter aka the anti-tree hugger environmental attorney
57407 From: David Withers <dwithers@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 10:58am
Subject: RE: re: Payson run
what about meeting on the bee-line just past shea in fountain hills.
-----Original Message-----
From: The Acuna Family [mailto:mkacuna@cox.net]
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 8:43 AM
To: Chatfield, Mike; 'AzVJC Website'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] re: Payson run
Thanks Mike. People can contact me directly at my e-mail. We still need to come up with a good meeting place and time.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Chatfield, Mike
To: 'The Acuna Family' ; 'AzVJC Website'
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 8:35 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] re: Payson run
Done. Big Red Letters! :)
Sorry I didn't see this until this morning!
- Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: The Acuna Family [mailto:mkacuna@cox.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 7:20 PM
To: AzVJC Website
Subject: [az_vjc] re: Payson run
Does anyone know a quick way to get a hold of Mike Chatfield? The local radio stations are mentioning our run and people are not able to find the info on the home page. I was hoping he could put a little link on the home page to the run information.
Mike
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
57408 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 10:37am
Subject: [TR] Unspecified - Saturday, June 29, 2002
Hello All,
Josh Wooten is leading an Unspecified trail run on Saturday, June 29, 2002.
When: 5:15 meet 5:30 rollout (if you think we need to meet earlier than this let me know and I will change the time)
Where: Chevron station at 51st avenue and south of the 101.
Rating: None
Length:
CB Channel: 4
This is an opportunity for the west siders to meet up and jeepavan out to the beeline and shea to meet up with the rest of the Payson Fire Relief folks.
Click Here To Add Your Name to the Sign Up List
Thank You,
- The AzVJC Website
57409 From: David Withers <dwithers@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:00am
Subject: RE: Payson Relief run
We're 47th and Glendale How about meeting at the target at I-17 and 101
-----Original Message-----
From: pebble007 [mailto:jawooten@c...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 8:51 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Payson Relief run
Hey \/\/est siders,
Anybody want to get together and jeepavan over to the meeting place
(when they post one - hint hint) saturday morning. I am at 67th ave
and the 101.
Let me know.
Josh Wooten
99TJ
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57410 From: Roger Tomas <tomasr@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:00am
Subject: Re: Greens Screaming Foul
I am an engineer too and I know most engineers don't write too good
but think I write really good and even better than most engineers and
is this a run-on sentence, yet? ;-)
-Roger
Joe W wrote:
>
> Stu,
>
> Fred is most likely an engineer... engineers have no need for paragraphs
> since very long sentences work just fine.
> <grin>
>
> Joe West
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Stu Olson [mailto:solson8@q...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 7:17 PM
> > To: 'FredTJ'; 'Roger Tomas'
> > Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
> >
> >
> > Fred, have you ever considered using paragraphs when your write?
> >
> > Stu Olson
> > www.stu-offroad.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@c...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 2:28 PM
> > To: Roger Tomas; Judith Raya
> > Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
> >
> > But the only areas that need "management" is the forest-urban
> > boundaries. No
> > other parts of the forest need management. I taped an
> > interesting thing
> > last
> > night ( on the news ). One of the FS people were saying how the public
> > icon,
> > Smokey the Bear, you know "only you can prevent forest fires" has
> > actually
> > contributed to the problem, by instilling in people the
> > thought that all
> > forest fires are bad.
> > They are NOT.... The forest needs fire. The only thing that is bad, or
> > has
> > the potential to be bad, is fire on the forest-urban boundaries where
> > property and/or life is risked. This problem needs to be addressed,
> > certainly, and I'm sure that it will now. Thinning is require on the
> > boundaries, and I'm sure that soon, we'll see that happen. Logging
> > wilderness does not need to happen.
> > The primary reason that the forest are in the shape that they
> > are today
> > (overgrown, too much fuel, etc), is a near century old policy
> > of putting
> > out
> > every little fire that starts.
> > If you look back at the Yellowstone fire, and how, "awful" everyone
> > thought
> > it was. Well the Park is now healther (by virtually everyones vision)
> > than
> > it's probably ever been in remembered history. The Park was
> > really fire
> > starved. The FS is learning, and we are learning the hard way.
> > Why do you think that fire is bad ??
> > Regarding thinning. Logging, IMHO, is not the answer. The parts that
> > need
> > thinning, again, on the forest-urban boudaries, are the trees that are
> > way
> > over grown and way too thick. These are the smaller trees, not the
> > larger
> > trees. The FS person last night, said the same thing, which
> > surprised me
> > somewhat, as the timber industry is one of the main sources of income
> > for
> > the FS and the timber industry is the one that wants into the deeper
> > wilderness areas and they want the big trees. So, logging won't remove
> > the
> > fuel (which is the small trees, thick underbrush, etc). Logging will
> > simply
> > remove the larger trees. It's all about money, and really
> > nothing else.
> > The
> > logging companies want me (through my taxes) to pay for the
> > roads (that
> > the
> > FS would build) so they can get to my (the National Forest
> > belongs to us
> > all, right) forest, so that they can cut down my trees and make money
> > for
> > themselves, not paying me a penny in return. To further all
> > insult, much
> > of
> > the timber would be sold overseas (Japan is on of the primary
> > consumers
> > of
> > American raw timber) and therefore the resource, or much of
> > it, doesn't
> > even
> > stay here.
> > The fires doesn't hurt the forest, even the really, really, bad ones,
> > the
> > crown fires where old trees are killed, like the current fire. The
> > forest
> > will recover and it will be healther because of it. The ideal
> > thing is
> > not
> > to have crown fires, as then there is nothing for the forest
> > to recover
> > from. Regular burning doesn't hurt the trees at all, and it keeps
> > everything
> > cleaned out. Crown fires do kill mature trees (as does
> > logging), and in
> > those cases the forest does have to recover and that does
> > take time. But
> > recover it will. Again, simply look a Yellowstone. Now, if we don't
> > continue
> > to screw up, that forest will remain healthy on it's own, but
> > it must be
> > allowed to burn when fires happen, except on the forest-urban
> > boundaries.
> > Go back 150 years ago, or 200 years ago, before there was massive
> > logging,
> > before every fire was being attacked. The forest were
> > exteremely healty.
> > We've screwed it up. The FS service says the same thing. The
> > forest has
> > been
> > screwed up only during the last 100 years (almost) of us trying to
> > "protect"
> > it. Smokey the Bear did more than anyone every thought that
> > he would ;)
> >
> >
> > Best,
> > Fred
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...>
> > To: "Judith Raya" <jraya@a...>
> > Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:00 AM
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
> >
> >
> > > All these discussions center around treatment of the wildland-urban
> > > interface. They say nothing about the rest of the forest where the
> > > environmentalists continually push for more wilderness and roadless
> > > designations.
> > >
> > > Speak out both sides of their mouths, the environmentalists do.
> > (yoda)
> > >
> > > Someone tell me - am I off base here or am I seeing through their
> > > smoke screen?
> > >
> > > -Roger
> > >
> > > Judith Raya wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Good day from the PCCFMU,
> > > > > The Center for Biological Diversity is wildly flailing about
> > blaming
> > > > > everyone including the state of Arizona for the fires
> > in the White
> > > > > Mountains. These people are so fanatical in their
> > "love" of mother
> > > > earth
> > > > > that they will see her burn rather than admit to their mistakes
> > and
> > > > > allow responsible land and forest management to take
> > place. It is
> > my
> > > > > belief that most of the leaders in the green groups are mentally
> > ill
> > > > and
> > > > > in serious need of deprograming and therapy. Their "love" of the
> > earth
> > > >
> > > > > is not love but an unhealthy obsession. What they essentially do
> > is
> > > > > stalk their earth love and anyone who may have
> > divergent interests
> > or
> > > > > uses for it other than their own. Burning, terrorizing,
> > intimidation,
> > > > > obstruction and litigation are their means to
> > "protect" her ( in
> > > > their
> > > > > sick minds) from those they state would rape and misuse her.
> > > > > It is time to clearly draw the line between good land management
> > > > > practices and science, and the druidic, earth worshiping
> > fanaticism
> > > > that
> > > > > is being foisted upon the people of North America by the green
> > > > > organizations across the country.
> > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > Glynn Burkhardt
> > > > >
> > > > > Subject:
> > > > > Arizona Fire Update
> > > > > Date:
> > > > > 24 Jun 2002 23:39:09 -0000
> > > > > From:
> > > > > "Center for Biological Diveristy"
> > > > > <center@b...>
> > > > > Reply-To:
> > > > > notice-reply-i8gkwb4r78xmbm@a...
> > > > > To:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > NEWS ADVISORY: Monday, June 24
> > > > > CONTACT: Brian Segee, (520) 623-5252 x308
> > > > > More Information:
> > > > >
> > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > > > >
> > > > > STATE PRESSURED FOREST SERVICE TO HALT FUELS REDUCTION
> > > > > PROJECT IN RODEO BURN AREA
> > > > >
> > > > > GOVERNOR HULL SCAPEGOATS ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOR LARGEST
> > > > > FIRES IN ARIZONA HISTORY
> > > > >
> > > > > As Arizona faces its largest wildfire in history with
> > > > > hundreds of homes destroyed and thousands of people
> > > > > evacuated from their homes, Governor Jane Hull has
> > > > > seized upon the tragedy to advance her own anti-environmental
> > > > > agenda: On Sunday, June 23rd, Hull appeared on television
> > > > > to blame environmentalists for the fire.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Governor predictably failed to explain how environmentalists
> > > > > were to blame for the fires. Additionally, the Governor
> > > > > failed to mention 1) that a prescribed fire set by
> > > > > the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuel loads within
> > > > > the burned area was stopped by state intervention,
> > > > > 2) the vast majority of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > > Forests have been previously logged by the U.S. Forest
> > > > > Service, 3) a recent report by the Government Accounting
> > > > > Office (GAO) found that only 1% of Forest Service fuel
> > > > > reduction projects were challenged with appeals or
> > > > > lawsuits, and 4) a second recent report by the GAO
> > > > > found that the Forest Service has misdirected funds
> > > > > from its massive fuels reduction budget away from the
> > > > > protection of rural communities threatened by fire.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The Los Angeles Times recently reported that a prescribed
> > > > > fire set by the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuels
> > > > > in what is now the Rodeo-Chediski fire was stopped
> > > > > by unwarranted intervention by state agencies:
> > > > >
> > > > > "When controlled burns were set recently in the Apache
> > > > > Sitgreaves National Forest, where the Rodeo fire now
> > > > > rages, nearby residents complained to state air quality
> > > > > officials about the smoke. The state pressured Forest
> > > > > Service officials to extinguish the blazes prematurely,
> > > > > Anderson (planner on the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > > Forest) said. "Other plans to start controlled burns
> > > > > have been blocked by litigation, he said." (17 Blazes
> > > > > Charring the West, Los Angeles Times, 6-23-02).
> > > > >
> > > > > The Governor's scapegoating of environmentalists is
> > > > > fundamentally inaccurate. The Center for Biological
> > > > > Diversity (CBD), Sierra Club, Southwest Forest Alliance
> > > > > and other environmental organizations have long supported
> > > > > the use of both prescribed fire and thinning of small-diameter
> > > > > trees as the most effective methods to reduce fire
> > > > > danger within Southwestern ponderosa pine forests.
> > > > > Ironically, CBD sits on Governor's Forest Health/Fire
> > > > > Plan Advisory Committee, a group appointed by Jane
> > > > > Hull to advise governor on community protection and
> > > > > forest restoration issues and to make recommendations
> > > > > on where to spend National Fire Plan funds. We also
> > > > > are on Senator Bingaman's (D-NM) Community Forest Restoration
> > > > > Program Advisory Committee, which is charged with distribution
> > > > > of $ 5 million annually to rural communities for forest
> > > > > restoration and community protection.
> > > > >
> > > > > "The Governor is opportunistically and cynically using
> > > > > this on-going tragedy to further an anti-environmental
> > > > > agenda," stated Brian Segee with CBD. "Not only do
> > > > > we strongly support community protection efforts such
> > > > > as wildland-urban interface treatments, prescribed
> > > > > burning and small-diameter thinning, we are deeply
> > > > > involved in on-going collaborative and governmental
> > > > > efforts to make such goals a reality."
> > > > >
> > > > > Independent studies conducted by the federal government
> > > > > also directly contradict charges that environmental
> > > > > organizations are preventing needed fuels reduction
> > > > > projects from being completed. As stated in an August
> > > > > 2001 report by the Government Accounting Office (GAO),
> > > > > an independent investigative branch of Congress:
> > > > >
> > > > > "In summary, as of July 18, 2001, the Forest Service
> > > > > has completed the necessary environmental analysis
> > > > > and had decided to implement 1,671 hazardous fuel reduction
> > > > > projects in fiscal year 2001. Of these projects, 20
> > > > > (about 1 percent) had been appealed and none had been
> > > > > litigated. Appellants included environmental groups,
> > > > > recreation groups, private industry interests, and
> > > > > individuals."
> > > > >
> > > > > Under the National Fire Plan, passed in the wake of
> > > > > 2000's intense fire season, the Forest Service and
> > > > > other federal agencies were given over $2 billion
> > > > > to thin brush and small-diameter trees, with an emphasis
> > > > > on community protection. GAO research has concluded
> > > > > that the Forest Service could not account for how this
> > > > > money was being spent. In a January 2002 GAO report
> > > > > entitled "Severe Wildland Fires: Leadership and Accountability
> > > > > Needed to Reduce Risks to Communities and Resources,"
> > > > > it is stated:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Over a year after the Congress substantially increased
> > > > > funds to reduce hazardous fuels, the federal effort
> > > > > still lacks clearly defined and effective leadership
> > > > > . . .it is not possible to determine if the $796 million
> > > > > appropriated for hazardous fuels reduction in fiscal
> > > > > years 2001 and 2002 is targeted to the communities
> > > > > and other areas at highest risk of severe wildland
> > > > > fires."
> > > > >
> > > > > Finally, forgotten in the Governor's continued and
> > > > > escalating attack against environmentalists is the
> > > > > fact that almost all of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > > Forests where the two fires are burning has been intensively
> > > > > logged. Almost no area along the relatively flat and
> > > > > easily accessible Mogollon Rim has been spared from
> > > > > logging.
> > > > >
> > > > > For more information,
> > > > >
> http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > > >
> > > > (end)
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57411 From: David Withers <dwithers@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:02am
Subject: RE: Payson Relief Run meeting place and time: 6:30 am on Saturday at Beeline and Shea?
I agree,,, I think 7:30 or 8 would be better.
We have no A/C, but we'll manage
-----Original Message-----
From: The Acuna Family [mailto:mkacuna@c...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 9:16 AM
To: Joe.West@s...; Azvjc (E-mail)
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Payson Relief Run meeting place and time: 6:30 am
on Saturday at Beeline and Shea?
Wow! thats early..........How long do you think it will take me to get
their from Surprise? 1 1/2 hours?
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe West" <joe.west@s...>
To: "Azvjc (E-mail)" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 9:00 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Payson Relief Run meeting place and time: 6:30 am on
Saturday at Beeline and Shea?
> Hi Everyone,
>
> Unless anyone has any better suggestions... I propose that we meet at
> the Beeline Highway and Shea road in Fountain Hills at 6:30am on
> Saturday. There is a Taco Bell on the North side of Shea just West of
> the beeline highway. I think that there is enough parking in the area
> for us to use it to stage the run. If anyone knows a better (larger)
> spot in the Fountain Hills area, please speak up.
>
> Joe West
>
> "Where a calculator on the ENIAC is equipped with 18,000 vacuum tubes
> and weighs 30 tons, computers in the future may have only 1,000 vacuum
> tubes
and
> weigh only 1-1/2 tons." -Popular Mechanics, March, 1949
>
>
> Joe West
> Synopsys Applications Consultant
> 2151 East Broadway Road, Suite 106
> Tempe, Arizona 85282
>
> Office: (480) 921-3732
> Cell: (602) 524-7632
> Fax: (480) 921-8883
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57412 From: AzVJC Website <Mike@A...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:06am
Subject: [TR] Unspecified - Saturday, June 29, 2002 - Reminder
Hello All,
Mike Chatfield is leading an Unspecified trail run on Saturday, June 29, 2002.
When: Saturday June 29th 6:30am (Meet, roll out around 7am)
Where: Meet at the Taco Bell Parking Lot near Highway 87 (Beeline) and Shea Blvd in Fountain Hills.
Click Here for a Map
Rating: None
Length: 4 hours
CB Channel: 4
We are going to get as many donations of food, water, personal items, items for the pet shelters as we can and take them up to the relief area in Payson.
Non-AzVJC Members Click Here to contact someone reguarding donating supplies or for more information.
Here is the list of items needed from the Red Cross and Salvation Army:
WATER (1.5 liter bottles if possible)
Leather Gloves
Goggles
Respirators
White Cotton Socks
Hygene Products (lip balm, sunscreen, eye drops, soap, deoderant, etc.)
Granola/Trail bars
Gatorade
Games and Toys for All Ages
Bleach
Laundry Detergent
Dishwashing Detergent
Cat Litter
Canned Cat and Dog Food
Click Here To Add Your Name to the Sign Up List
Thank You,
- The AzVJC Website
57413 From: David Withers <dwithers@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:06am
Subject: RE: [TR] Unspecified - Saturday, June 29, 2002
could you move this farther east to say the target
-----Original Message-----
From: AzVJC Website [mailto:azvjc@azvjc.org]
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 5:38 PM
To: AzVJC
Subject: [az_vjc] [TR] Unspecified - Saturday, June 29, 2002
Hello All,
Josh Wooten is leading an Unspecified trail run on Saturday, June 29, 2002.
When: 5:15 meet 5:30 rollout (if you think we need to meet earlier than this let me know and I will change the time)
Where: Chevron station at 51st avenue and south of the 101.
Rating: None
Length:
CB Channel: 4
This is an opportunity for the west siders to meet up and jeepavan out to the beeline and shea to meet up with the rest of the Payson Fire Relief folks.
Click Here To Add Your Name to the Sign Up List
Thank You,
- The AzVJC Website
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
57414 From: Chatfield, Mike <Mike@A...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:08am
Subject: RE: Mike... can you please fix a Misspelling on the Pays on run on our web page?
I guess my fingers don't spell that word very well. :)
- Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe West [mailto:joe.west@s...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 9:28 AM
To: Azvjc (E-mail)
Subject: [az_vjc] Mike... can you please fix a Misspelling on the Payson
run on our web page?
The word "Regaurding" is used a number of times... the correct spelling is
"Regarding"
If we send a bunch of people to this link, I'd hate to have this misspelling
in BIG RED LETTERS. <grin>
Thanks Mike,
Joe West
"Where a calculator on the ENIAC is equipped with 18,000 vacuum tubes and
weighs 30 tons, computers in the future may have only 1,000 vacuum tubes and
weigh only 1-1/2 tons." -Popular Mechanics, March, 1949
Joe West
Synopsys Applications Consultant
2151 East Broadway Road, Suite 106
Tempe, Arizona 85282
Office: (480) 921-3732
Cell: (602) 524-7632
Fax: (480) 921-8883
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57415 From: David Withers <dwithers@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:09am
Subject: Someone wanted to borrow my speed sensor today.
I forgot your name, and never got your address.
David R. W. Withers
Desk: 480.551.4667
Mobile: 480.215.6992
57416 From: Joe West <joe.west@s...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:09am
Subject: RE: Payson Relief Run meeting place and time: 6:30 am on Saturday at Beeline and Shea?
I'm fine with whatever everyone wants... I think that 8 is a bit late... how
about we shoot for leaving at 8 and everyone plan on being at the meeting
site at 7:30?
Outside temperatures are likely to be in excess of 110 degrees on Saturday,
so an early start and finish will be good for those Jeepers without
air-conditioning... I'm sure it won't be too difficult to wake up a little
early one day.
Unless anyone has great difficulties, how about 7:30am. I will be there
earlier anyway just to stand around and shoot the breeze..
Joe West
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Withers [mailto:dwithers@a...]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:03 AM
> To: 'The Acuna Family'; Joe.West@s...; 'Azvjc (E-mail)'
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Payson Relief Run meeting place and
> time: 6:30 am
> on Saturday at Beeline and Shea?
>
>
> I agree,,, I think 7:30 or 8 would be better.
> We have no A/C, but we'll manage
>
57417 From: David Withers <dwithers@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:13am
Subject: RE: Payson Relief Run meeting place and time: 6:30 am on Saturday at Beeline and Shea?
Thank you!!!!!
It's going to take me at least an hour to get there so I really
appreciate us moving the time.
In addition to myself,,, I think we have some Tucson folk coming
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe West [mailto:Joe.West@s...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:10 AM
To: 'David Withers'; 'The Acuna Family'; Joe.West@s...; 'Azvjc
(E-mail)'
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Payson Relief Run meeting place and time: 6:30 am
on Saturday at Beeline and Shea?
I'm fine with whatever everyone wants... I think that 8 is a bit late...
how about we shoot for leaving at 8 and everyone plan on being at the
meeting site at 7:30? Outside temperatures are likely to be in excess of
110 degrees on Saturday, so an early start and finish will be good for
those Jeepers without air-conditioning... I'm sure it won't be too
difficult to wake up a little early one day.
Unless anyone has great difficulties, how about 7:30am. I will be there
earlier anyway just to stand around and shoot the breeze..
Joe West
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Withers [mailto:dwithers@a...]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:03 AM
> To: 'The Acuna Family'; Joe.West@s...; 'Azvjc (E-mail)'
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Payson Relief Run meeting place and
> time: 6:30 am
> on Saturday at Beeline and Shea?
>
>
> I agree,,, I think 7:30 or 8 would be better.
> We have no A/C, but we'll manage
>
57418 From: azcj <azcj@y...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:14am
Subject: Re: Payson Relief Run meeting place and time: 6:30 am on Saturday at Beeline and Shea?
That sounds better to me, too. Maybe meet in Fountain Hills at 7:30
and roll out at 8:00. I think more people would make the trip that
way. I know I'd rather deal with a few degrees more heat on the way
back into town than get up at 5am on a Saturday, or earlier for those
on the far westside.
-Scott E.
--- In az_vjc@y..., "David Withers" <dwithers@a...> wrote:
> I agree,,, I think 7:30 or 8 would be better.
> We have no A/C, but we'll manage
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The Acuna Family [mailto:mkacuna@c...]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 9:16 AM
> To: Joe.West@s...; Azvjc (E-mail)
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Payson Relief Run meeting place and time:
6:30 am
> on Saturday at Beeline and Shea?
>
>
> Wow! thats early..........How long do you think it will take me to
get
> their from Surprise? 1 1/2 hours?
>
> Mike
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe West" <joe.west@s...>
> To: "Azvjc (E-mail)" <az_vjc@y...>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 9:00 AM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Payson Relief Run meeting place and time: 6:30 am
on
> Saturday at Beeline and Shea?
>
>
> > Hi Everyone,
> >
> > Unless anyone has any better suggestions... I propose that we
meet at
> > the Beeline Highway and Shea road in Fountain Hills at 6:30am on
> > Saturday. There is a Taco Bell on the North side of Shea just
West of
> > the beeline highway. I think that there is enough parking in the
area
> > for us to use it to stage the run. If anyone knows a better
(larger)
> > spot in the Fountain Hills area, please speak up.
> >
> > Joe West
> >
> > "Where a calculator on the ENIAC is equipped with 18,000 vacuum
tubes
> > and weighs 30 tons, computers in the future may have only 1,000
vacuum
>
> > tubes
> and
> > weigh only 1-1/2 tons." -Popular Mechanics, March, 1949
> >
> >
> > Joe West
> > Synopsys Applications Consultant
> > 2151 East Broadway Road, Suite 106
> > Tempe, Arizona 85282
> >
> > Office: (480) 921-3732
> > Cell: (602) 524-7632
> > Fax: (480) 921-8883
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57419 From: pebble007 <jawooten@c...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:15am
Subject: Re: [TR] Unspecified - Saturday, June 29, 2002
David works for me and if the change the time on the run i will
change the meet time as well.
Josh Wooten
99TJ
--- In az_vjc@y..., "David Withers" <dwithers@a...> wrote:
> could you move this farther east to say the target
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: AzVJC Website [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 5:38 PM
> To: AzVJC
> Subject: [az_vjc] [TR] Unspecified - Saturday, June 29, 2002
>
>
>
> Hello All,
>
> Josh Wooten is leading an Unspecified trail run on Saturday, June
29,
> 2002.
>
> When: 5:15 meet 5:30 rollout (if you think we need to meet earlier
than
> this let me know and I will change the time)
> Where: Chevron station at 51st avenue and south of the 101.
> Rating: None
> Length:
> CB Channel: 4
>
> This is an opportunity for the west siders to meet up and jeepavan
out
> to the beeline and shea to meet up with the rest of the Payson Fire
> Relief folks.
>
>
>
> Click Here To Add Your <http://www.azvjc.org/default.asp?
A=1&ID=489>
> Name to the Sign Up List
>
>
>
> Thank You,
>
> - The AzVJC Website
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
57420 From: vtchopper <jasonandkatiemerrillinaz@h...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:16am
Subject: need sharkys number
hello everyone i need to get a hold of sharky for a aligment for my
buddies jeep he is installing a 2.5" lift single flex this weekend
thanks in advance
jason 99 TJ Odie
480-488-3283
57421 From: David Withers <dwithers@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:19am
Subject: RE: need sharkys number
Why not take it to Flexy and have it done (what word is derogatory
towards Sharky?) by someone who is in the trade. Flexy is the cheapest
4-wheel alignment in town. I take all my vehicles there.
David Withers
-----Original Message-----
From: vtchopper [mailto:jasonandkatiemerrillinaz@h...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:16 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] need sharkys number
hello everyone i need to get a hold of sharky for a aligment for my
buddies jeep he is installing a 2.5" lift single flex this weekend
thanks in advance
jason 99 TJ Odie
480-488-3283
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57422 From: Chatfield, Mike <Mike@A...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:22am
Subject: RE: [TR] Unspecified - Saturday, June 29, 2002 - Reminde r
OOPS.. not me.. I just had the website send out a reminder... Guess I have a "bug" in the code..
-----Original Message-----
From: AzVJC Website [mailto:Mike@AzChatfield.net]
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 6:06 PM
To: AzVJC
Subject: [az_vjc] [TR] Unspecified - Saturday, June 29, 2002 - Reminder
Hello All,
Mike Chatfield is leading an Unspecified trail run on Saturday, June 29, 2002.
57423 From: Roger Tomas <tomasr@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:24am
Subject: Re: Payson Relief run
I might be interested. I'm at 39th Ave and Happy Valley.
My wife and kids will be tagging along in the Volvo too.
-Roger
pebble007 wrote:
>
> Hey \/\/est siders,
> Anybody want to get together and jeepavan over to the meeting place
> (when they post one - hint hint) saturday morning. I am at 67th ave
> and the 101.
> Let me know.
> Josh Wooten
> 99TJ
57424 From: <msa12171@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 7:31am
Subject: OFFICIAL MEETING TIME AND PLACE
As Joe suggested, the Taco Bell at Shea and 87, at 7:00am. I've notified one radio station (I know someone) about this to see if we can get some coverage in hopes that some people will meet there to donate or help. If you can't be there, here is the location of the shelter:
Rim Country Middle School
304 S Meadow St.
Payson 85541
It is west of 87 and south of 260. Take 87 north to Bonita St. Turn left (west) to Meadow St., then go right (north) to the school. I'm trying to notify them of our arrival.
You can get a map from Mapquest.com
Any questions e-mail me.
Mike Anderson
57425 From: pebble007 <jawooten@c...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:32am
Subject: Re: Payson Relief run
Roger,
There's a run posted for the meet up.
Josh Wooten
99 TJ
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...> wrote:
> I might be interested. I'm at 39th Ave and Happy Valley.
> My wife and kids will be tagging along in the Volvo too.
>
> -Roger
>
> pebble007 wrote:
> >
> > Hey \/\/est siders,
> > Anybody want to get together and jeepavan over to the meeting
place
> > (when they post one - hint hint) saturday morning. I am at 67th
ave
> > and the 101.
> > Let me know.
> > Josh Wooten
> > 99TJ
57426 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 11:43am
Subject: RE: Fire relief run- another red shirt event???
Hmmm.....how about red? I just happen to have one of those shirts....its a
dead ringer to the one I had on during the last land use meeting! LOL!!!!!
TC!
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: graymatterwj [mailto:graymatterwj@y...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 10:52 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Fire relief run- another red shirt event???
The red shirts added a very nice touch to the land use meeting. It
would also be nice to coordinate a designated colored shirt so when
we are unloading supplies we still look like well organized group.
Comments/suggestions...
Brian aka Gray Matter aka the anti-tree hugger environmental attorney
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