blooddrive
01-05-2004, 08:04 PM
57302-57326
57302 From: robert_j_rogers2 <robert.rogers@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:48pm
Subject: The invisable man?
On the Trip Attendees list for Saterday who the invisable man. How
can nobody be tentative.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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57303 From: Chatfield, Mike <Mike@A...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:03pm
Subject: RE: The invisable man?
Simple, just don't put a name (last or first) in your profile and then join
a run. :)
- Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: robert_j_rogers2 [mailto:robert.rogers@c...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 4:49 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] The invisable man?
On the Trip Attendees list for Saterday who the invisable man. How
can nobody be tentative.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57304 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:26pm
Subject: A couple of Jeep questions
Imagine that...
First question, it appears as though the heil coil in my soft top ends, that
hold the retaining torx screws, in are spinning in the plastic ends. I have
ordered the billet aluminum replacements, so I can take my top off for our
nice cool whether. My question is, has anyone every had this happen? What is
the best to remove the screws now, they just spin in place? I know that I
can figure out a way to get them out, I just want to know the easiest way.
Second, the AC in the TJ had started blowing real, real cold, no big deal
right. Well now it is shutting off intermittently. The air coming out of the
vents is extremely cold when it works, it just doesn't work constantly. I am
thinking the head pressure is getting to high and shutting the system down.
Not only does the fan stop, but the compressor shuts off. I hope we have an
vehicle AC guy around. I have an extended warranty I have never used, maybe
it's time to use it?
TIA
--James
57305 From: azlorangers <azlorangers@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:27pm
Subject: REPOST Need a good shop in Chandler
Hey folks, last Monday I posted that my coworker needs a good shop in
Chandler area. Someone sent me a message for a shop around Chandler
Blvd, not Rich's Automotive. I gave that info to her, and she lost
it (big surprise for this woman HA!).
Can someone resend that information, but this time directly to her...
Jodi Jones Jodi@e...
It was someone who knew the owner's name, I think it was Frank or
something... the guy she talked with was Shawn.
Thanks!!
Glenn
57306 From: tj_angel_113 <angel_113_@h...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:53pm
Subject: Do you think it will rain tonight?
Do you guys see those dark clouds??? I really hope it rains.
Angel
57307 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:55pm
Subject: RE: Greens Screaming Foul
Hackle,
Fred = good guy and a wheeler. With a differing opinion. So what. He
likes to wheel and I don't think he would do anything to lessen anyone's
ability or future ability to do the same.
My stand -
I will say that yes the forest were in great shape before man arrived
but now that man is here the forests need to be managed because a fire
could mean destroying what man has built and or wants to build. And the
forest needs to be enjoyed.
Having said that I don't think anyone knows enough about the forest to
properly manage them specially for the long term (think centuries).
Joey K
-----Original Message-----
From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@c...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 4:27 PM
To: Hackle
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
Mmmmm, I don't "sign his messages" ?? Ever one has been signed, I
usually use "Best, Fred" or "Cheers, Fred" or ":) Fred". What more do
you want ?? I've posted here on somewhat of a regular basis for some
time (maybe over a year, I really can't remember). What more would you
like to know. Stu has met me, Chris K. has met me, Linda L, has met me,
DougB has met me (I've done a handful of runs with him). Joey has met
me (H2H), mmmmm, perhaps others. I live in Tucson, so don't get up to
Phoenix and the area much. Yes, I have a TJ. A nicely setup TJ. I
actually don't expect anyone to stand up and say "hey, I know him"...
People obviously think I'm green now ;) I belong to no "green" groups,
never had, probably never will. There are always two sides to every
issue, and I've been pounded and pounded by one side, and now I'm
looking at both sides, and asking questions and stating, simply, my
opinions, as are others here. Why are you upset ? What's upset you about
the post. That I happen to believe that forest fires, aren't be
defination bad, or that the timber industry shouldn't be allowed to log
where ever and when ever they want. Sorry if that upsets you. Really.
Now, Jim, since you've put words in my mouth "adding wilderness area",
please show me, in one of my post where I said that I wanted to add
wilderness areas for example. As I explained in a previous e-mail, for
myself, and myself only, I'm on a fact finding mission. I've been
following various of these issues off and on for many years, but know,
for some reason, I'm looking for cold hard facts and I'm finding some.
Anyway, I won't be posting much more on any of these issues. People have
there own ideas, and that's the way it should be. I simply believe that
forest fires (except, obviously, in and around populated areas) are NOT
a bad thing, but actually good.
NOTE: signed ;)
Best ,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hackle" <hackle@q...>
Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 3:15 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
> Who is FredTJ he does not sign his messages and he spends his time
> explaining things about how great the greenie's are? Has anyone ever
> met
him
> on a run does he have a TJ?
> He avoids explaining how stopping roads and adding wilderness area
> stops fires. (this is a greenie tool correct) If someone knows him and
> I am off base let me know. But for someone that has not been involved
> with many e-mails in the past he seems to be trying
to
> make up for it on this subject. Jim Florence
>
> I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member.
> "Groucho Marx" Member of the original dirty half dozen.
> http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/index.htm/
> http://www.rockrats.org/
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@c...]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 2:28 PM
> To: Roger Tomas; Judith Raya
> Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
>
>
> But the only areas that need "management" is the forest-urban
> boundaries.
No
> other parts of the forest need management. I taped an interesting
> thing
last
> night ( on the news ). One of the FS people were saying how the public
icon,
> Smokey the Bear, you know "only you can prevent forest fires" has
> actually contributed to the problem, by instilling in people the
> thought that all forest fires are bad. They are NOT.... The forest
> needs fire. The only thing that is bad, or has the potential to be
> bad, is fire on the forest-urban boundaries where property and/or life
> is risked. This problem needs to be addressed, certainly, and I'm sure
> that it will now. Thinning is require on the boundaries, and I'm sure
> that soon, we'll see that happen. Logging wilderness does not need to
> happen. The primary reason that the forest are in the shape that they
> are today (overgrown, too much fuel, etc), is a near century old
> policy of putting
out
> every little fire that starts.
> If you look back at the Yellowstone fire, and how, "awful" everyone
thought
> it was. Well the Park is now healther (by virtually everyones vision)
> than it's probably ever been in remembered history. The Park was
> really fire starved. The FS is learning, and we are learning the hard
> way. Why do you think that fire is bad ?? Regarding thinning. Logging,
> IMHO, is not the answer. The parts that need thinning, again, on the
> forest-urban boudaries, are the trees that are way over grown and way
> too thick. These are the smaller trees, not the larger trees. The FS
> person last night, said the same thing, which surprised me somewhat,
> as the timber industry is one of the main sources of income for the FS
> and the timber industry is the one that wants into the deeper
> wilderness areas and they want the big trees. So, logging won't remove
> the fuel (which is the small trees, thick underbrush, etc). Logging
> will
simply
> remove the larger trees. It's all about money, and really nothing
> else.
The
> logging companies want me (through my taxes) to pay for the roads
> (that
the
> FS would build) so they can get to my (the National Forest belongs to
> us all, right) forest, so that they can cut down my trees and make
> money for themselves, not paying me a penny in return. To further all
> insult, much
of
> the timber would be sold overseas (Japan is on of the primary
> consumers of American raw timber) and therefore the resource, or much
> of it, doesn't
even
> stay here.
> The fires doesn't hurt the forest, even the really, really, bad ones,
> the crown fires where old trees are killed, like the current fire. The
> forest will recover and it will be healther because of it. The ideal
> thing is
not
> to have crown fires, as then there is nothing for the forest to
> recover from. Regular burning doesn't hurt the trees at all, and it
> keeps
everything
> cleaned out. Crown fires do kill mature trees (as does logging), and
> in those cases the forest does have to recover and that does take
> time. But recover it will. Again, simply look a Yellowstone. Now, if
> we don't
continue
> to screw up, that forest will remain healthy on it's own, but it must
> be allowed to burn when fires happen, except on the forest-urban
> boundaries. Go back 150 years ago, or 200 years ago, before there was
> massive logging, before every fire was being attacked. The forest were
> exteremely healty. We've screwed it up. The FS service says the same
> thing. The forest has
been
> screwed up only during the last 100 years (almost) of us trying to
"protect"
> it. Smokey the Bear did more than anyone every thought that he would
> ;)
>
>
> Best,
> Fred
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...>
> To: "Judith Raya" <jraya@a...>
> Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
>
>
> > All these discussions center around treatment of the wildland-urban
> > interface. They say nothing about the rest of the forest where the
> > environmentalists continually push for more wilderness and roadless
> > designations.
> >
> > Speak out both sides of their mouths, the environmentalists do.
> > (yoda)
> >
> > Someone tell me - am I off base here or am I seeing through their
> > smoke screen?
> >
> > -Roger
> >
> > Judith Raya wrote:
> > >
> > > Good day from the PCCFMU,
> > > > The Center for Biological Diversity is wildly flailing about
> > > > blaming everyone including the state of Arizona for the fires in
> > > > the White Mountains. These people are so fanatical in their
> > > > "love" of mother
> > > earth
> > > > that they will see her burn rather than admit to their mistakes
> > > > and allow responsible land and forest management to take place.
> > > > It is my belief that most of the leaders in the green groups are
> > > > mentally ill
> > > and
> > > > in serious need of deprograming and therapy. Their "love" of the
earth
> > >
> > > > is not love but an unhealthy obsession. What they essentially do
> > > > is stalk their earth love and anyone who may have divergent
> > > > interests
or
> > > > uses for it other than their own. Burning, terrorizing,
intimidation,
> > > > obstruction and litigation are their means to "protect" her (
> > > > in
> > > their
> > > > sick minds) from those they state would rape and misuse her. It
> > > > is time to clearly draw the line between good land management
> > > > practices and science, and the druidic, earth worshiping
> > > > fanaticism
> > > that
> > > > is being foisted upon the people of North America by the green
> > > > organizations across the country. Sincerely,
> > > > Glynn Burkhardt
> > > >
> > > > Subject:
> > > > Arizona Fire Update
> > > > Date:
> > > > 24 Jun 2002 23:39:09 -0000
> > > > From:
> > > > "Center for Biological Diveristy"
> > > > <center@b...>
> > > > Reply-To:
> > > > notice-reply-i8gkwb4r78xmbm@a...
> > > > To:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > NEWS ADVISORY: Monday, June 24
> > > > CONTACT: Brian Segee, (520) 623-5252 x308
> > > > More Information:
> > > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.htm
> > > > l
> > > >
> > > > STATE PRESSURED FOREST SERVICE TO HALT FUELS REDUCTION PROJECT
> > > > IN RODEO BURN AREA
> > > >
> > > > GOVERNOR HULL SCAPEGOATS ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOR LARGEST FIRES IN
> > > > ARIZONA HISTORY
> > > >
> > > > As Arizona faces its largest wildfire in history with hundreds
> > > > of homes destroyed and thousands of people evacuated from their
> > > > homes, Governor Jane Hull has seized upon the tragedy to advance
> > > > her own anti-environmental
> > > > agenda: On Sunday, June 23rd, Hull appeared on television to
> > > > blame environmentalists for the fire.
> > > >
> > > > The Governor predictably failed to explain how environmentalists
> > > > were to blame for the fires. Additionally, the Governor failed
> > > > to mention 1) that a prescribed fire set by the U.S. Forest
> > > > Service to reduce fuel loads within the burned area was stopped
> > > > by state intervention,
> > > > 2) the vast majority of the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forests
> > > > have been previously logged by the U.S. Forest Service, 3) a
> > > > recent report by the Government Accounting Office (GAO) found
> > > > that only 1% of Forest Service fuel reduction projects were
> > > > challenged with appeals or lawsuits, and 4) a second recent
> > > > report by the GAO found that the Forest Service has misdirected
> > > > funds from its massive fuels reduction budget away from the
> > > > protection of rural communities threatened by fire.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Los Angeles Times recently reported that a prescribed fire
> > > > set by the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuels in what is now
> > > > the Rodeo-Chediski fire was stopped by unwarranted intervention
> > > > by state agencies:
> > > >
> > > > "When controlled burns were set recently in the Apache
> > > > Sitgreaves National Forest, where the Rodeo fire now rages,
> > > > nearby residents complained to state air quality officials about
> > > > the smoke. The state pressured Forest Service officials to
> > > > extinguish the blazes prematurely, Anderson (planner on the
> > > > Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forest) said. "Other plans to start controlled burns have been
> > > > blocked by litigation, he said." (17 Blazes Charring the West,
> > > > Los Angeles Times, 6-23-02).
> > > >
> > > > The Governor's scapegoating of environmentalists is
> > > > fundamentally inaccurate. The Center for Biological Diversity
> > > > (CBD), Sierra Club, Southwest Forest Alliance and other
> > > > environmental organizations have long supported the use of both
> > > > prescribed fire and thinning of small-diameter trees as the most
> > > > effective methods to reduce fire danger within Southwestern
> > > > ponderosa pine forests. Ironically, CBD sits on Governor's
> > > > Forest Health/Fire Plan Advisory Committee, a group appointed by
> > > > Jane Hull to advise governor on community protection and
> > > > forest restoration issues and to make recommendations
> > > > on where to spend National Fire Plan funds. We also
> > > > are on Senator Bingaman's (D-NM) Community Forest Restoration
> > > > Program Advisory Committee, which is charged with distribution
> > > > of $ 5 million annually to rural communities for forest
> > > > restoration and community protection.
> > > >
> > > > "The Governor is opportunistically and cynically using this
> > > > on-going tragedy to further an anti-environmental agenda,"
> > > > stated Brian Segee with CBD. "Not only do we strongly support
> > > > community protection efforts such as wildland-urban interface
> > > > treatments, prescribed burning and small-diameter thinning, we
> > > > are deeply involved in on-going collaborative and governmental
> > > > efforts to make such goals a reality."
> > > >
> > > > Independent studies conducted by the federal government also
> > > > directly contradict charges that environmental organizations are
> > > > preventing needed fuels reduction projects from being completed.
> > > > As stated in an August 2001 report by the Government Accounting
> > > > Office (GAO), an independent investigative branch of Congress:
> > > >
> > > > "In summary, as of July 18, 2001, the Forest Service has
> > > > completed the necessary environmental analysis and had decided
> > > > to implement 1,671 hazardous fuel reduction projects in fiscal
> > > > year 2001. Of these projects, 20 (about 1 percent) had been
> > > > appealed and none had been litigated. Appellants included
> > > > environmental groups, recreation groups, private industry
> > > > interests, and individuals."
> > > >
> > > > Under the National Fire Plan, passed in the wake of 2000's
> > > > intense fire season, the Forest Service and other federal
> > > > agencies were given over $2 billion to thin brush and
> > > > small-diameter trees, with an emphasis on community protection.
> > > > GAO research has concluded that the Forest Service could not
> > > > account for how this money was being spent. In a January 2002
> > > > GAO report entitled "Severe Wildland Fires: Leadership and
> > > > Accountability Needed to Reduce Risks to Communities and
> > > > Resources," it is stated:
> > > >
> > > > "Over a year after the Congress substantially increased funds to
> > > > reduce hazardous fuels, the federal effort still lacks clearly
> > > > defined and effective leadership . . .it is not possible to
> > > > determine if the $796 million appropriated for hazardous fuels
> > > > reduction in fiscal years 2001 and 2002 is targeted to the
> > > > communities and other areas at highest risk of severe wildland
> > > > fires."
> > > >
> > > > Finally, forgotten in the Governor's continued and escalating
> > > > attack against environmentalists is the fact that almost all of
> > > > the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forests where the two fires are
> > > > burning has been intensively logged. Almost no area along the
> > > > relatively flat and easily accessible Mogollon Rim has been
> > > > spared from logging.
> > > >
> > > > For more information,
> > > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.htm
> > > > l
> > > >
> > > > (end)
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57308 From: bermboy2000 <bermboy@h...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 6:06pm
Subject: Re: possible fire run decal?????
Yeah and the jeep needs square headlights;P Ill take two whites.
Scott Maiden
--- In az_vjc@y..., itsajeepthing28@a... wrote:
> I think its a great idea.... However, really believe that it should
be
> Rodeo-Chedeski....
>
>
> just my 2 cents...
>
> Gary Oglesby
57309 From: jeepindog <jeepindog@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 6:51pm
Subject: Whose green SOA YJ at 4Wheeler's Supply?
Full-width axles, SOA, and giant TSLs!!! Looks good, but whose
is it? AZ license AZRFRDR, an AZVJC sticker, and an AZ Ruff Riders
(spelling of club?) sticker. Didn't see anyone inside, so it must
have been getting some work done?
Lachlan
57310 From: FredTJ <fredtj@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 6:53pm
Subject: Re: Greens Screaming Foul
Joey,
Good post, I agree, not that it seems to matter to some ;) Anyway your
post:
> My stand -
> I will say that yes the forest were in great shape before man arrived
> but now that man is here the forests need to be managed because a fire
> could mean destroying what man has built and or wants to build. And the
> forest needs to be enjoyed.
> Having said that I don't think anyone knows enough about the forest to
> properly manage them specially for the long term (think centuries)
Best,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: "DesertJeep" <joey@d...>
To: "'FredTJ'" <fredtj@c...>; "'Hackle'" <hackle@q...>
Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:55 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
> Hackle,
> Fred = good guy and a wheeler. With a differing opinion. So what. He
> likes to wheel and I don't think he would do anything to lessen anyone's
> ability or future ability to do the same.
>
> My stand -
> I will say that yes the forest were in great shape before man arrived
> but now that man is here the forests need to be managed because a fire
> could mean destroying what man has built and or wants to build. And the
> forest needs to be enjoyed.
> Having said that I don't think anyone knows enough about the forest to
> properly manage them specially for the long term (think centuries).
>
> Joey K
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@c...]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 4:27 PM
> To: Hackle
> Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
>
>
> Mmmmm, I don't "sign his messages" ?? Ever one has been signed, I
> usually use "Best, Fred" or "Cheers, Fred" or ":) Fred". What more do
> you want ?? I've posted here on somewhat of a regular basis for some
> time (maybe over a year, I really can't remember). What more would you
> like to know. Stu has met me, Chris K. has met me, Linda L, has met me,
> DougB has met me (I've done a handful of runs with him). Joey has met
> me (H2H), mmmmm, perhaps others. I live in Tucson, so don't get up to
> Phoenix and the area much. Yes, I have a TJ. A nicely setup TJ. I
> actually don't expect anyone to stand up and say "hey, I know him"...
> People obviously think I'm green now ;) I belong to no "green" groups,
> never had, probably never will. There are always two sides to every
> issue, and I've been pounded and pounded by one side, and now I'm
> looking at both sides, and asking questions and stating, simply, my
> opinions, as are others here. Why are you upset ? What's upset you about
> the post. That I happen to believe that forest fires, aren't be
> defination bad, or that the timber industry shouldn't be allowed to log
> where ever and when ever they want. Sorry if that upsets you. Really.
> Now, Jim, since you've put words in my mouth "adding wilderness area",
> please show me, in one of my post where I said that I wanted to add
> wilderness areas for example. As I explained in a previous e-mail, for
> myself, and myself only, I'm on a fact finding mission. I've been
> following various of these issues off and on for many years, but know,
> for some reason, I'm looking for cold hard facts and I'm finding some.
> Anyway, I won't be posting much more on any of these issues. People have
> there own ideas, and that's the way it should be. I simply believe that
> forest fires (except, obviously, in and around populated areas) are NOT
> a bad thing, but actually good.
>
> NOTE: signed ;)
> Best ,
> Fred
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hackle" <hackle@q...>
> Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 3:15 PM
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
>
>
> > Who is FredTJ he does not sign his messages and he spends his time
> > explaining things about how great the greenie's are? Has anyone ever
> > met
> him
> > on a run does he have a TJ?
> > He avoids explaining how stopping roads and adding wilderness area
> > stops fires. (this is a greenie tool correct) If someone knows him and
>
> > I am off base let me know. But for someone that has not been involved
> > with many e-mails in the past he seems to be trying
> to
> > make up for it on this subject. Jim Florence
> >
> > I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member.
> > "Groucho Marx" Member of the original dirty half dozen.
> > http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/index.htm/
> > http://www.rockrats.org/
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@c...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 2:28 PM
> > To: Roger Tomas; Judith Raya
> > Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
> >
> >
> > But the only areas that need "management" is the forest-urban
> > boundaries.
> No
> > other parts of the forest need management. I taped an interesting
> > thing
> last
> > night ( on the news ). One of the FS people were saying how the public
> icon,
> > Smokey the Bear, you know "only you can prevent forest fires" has
> > actually contributed to the problem, by instilling in people the
> > thought that all forest fires are bad. They are NOT.... The forest
> > needs fire. The only thing that is bad, or has the potential to be
> > bad, is fire on the forest-urban boundaries where property and/or life
>
> > is risked. This problem needs to be addressed, certainly, and I'm sure
>
> > that it will now. Thinning is require on the boundaries, and I'm sure
> > that soon, we'll see that happen. Logging wilderness does not need to
> > happen. The primary reason that the forest are in the shape that they
> > are today (overgrown, too much fuel, etc), is a near century old
> > policy of putting
> out
> > every little fire that starts.
> > If you look back at the Yellowstone fire, and how, "awful" everyone
> thought
> > it was. Well the Park is now healther (by virtually everyones vision)
> > than it's probably ever been in remembered history. The Park was
> > really fire starved. The FS is learning, and we are learning the hard
> > way. Why do you think that fire is bad ?? Regarding thinning. Logging,
>
> > IMHO, is not the answer. The parts that need thinning, again, on the
> > forest-urban boudaries, are the trees that are way over grown and way
> > too thick. These are the smaller trees, not the larger trees. The FS
> > person last night, said the same thing, which surprised me somewhat,
> > as the timber industry is one of the main sources of income for the FS
>
> > and the timber industry is the one that wants into the deeper
> > wilderness areas and they want the big trees. So, logging won't remove
>
> > the fuel (which is the small trees, thick underbrush, etc). Logging
> > will
> simply
> > remove the larger trees. It's all about money, and really nothing
> > else.
> The
> > logging companies want me (through my taxes) to pay for the roads
> > (that
> the
> > FS would build) so they can get to my (the National Forest belongs to
> > us all, right) forest, so that they can cut down my trees and make
> > money for themselves, not paying me a penny in return. To further all
> > insult, much
> of
> > the timber would be sold overseas (Japan is on of the primary
> > consumers of American raw timber) and therefore the resource, or much
> > of it, doesn't
> even
> > stay here.
> > The fires doesn't hurt the forest, even the really, really, bad ones,
> > the crown fires where old trees are killed, like the current fire. The
>
> > forest will recover and it will be healther because of it. The ideal
> > thing is
> not
> > to have crown fires, as then there is nothing for the forest to
> > recover from. Regular burning doesn't hurt the trees at all, and it
> > keeps
> everything
> > cleaned out. Crown fires do kill mature trees (as does logging), and
> > in those cases the forest does have to recover and that does take
> > time. But recover it will. Again, simply look a Yellowstone. Now, if
> > we don't
> continue
> > to screw up, that forest will remain healthy on it's own, but it must
> > be allowed to burn when fires happen, except on the forest-urban
> > boundaries. Go back 150 years ago, or 200 years ago, before there was
> > massive logging, before every fire was being attacked. The forest were
>
> > exteremely healty. We've screwed it up. The FS service says the same
> > thing. The forest has
> been
> > screwed up only during the last 100 years (almost) of us trying to
> "protect"
> > it. Smokey the Bear did more than anyone every thought that he would
> > ;)
> >
> >
> > Best,
> > Fred
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...>
> > To: "Judith Raya" <jraya@a...>
> > Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:00 AM
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
> >
> >
> > > All these discussions center around treatment of the wildland-urban
> > > interface. They say nothing about the rest of the forest where the
> > > environmentalists continually push for more wilderness and roadless
> > > designations.
> > >
> > > Speak out both sides of their mouths, the environmentalists do.
> > > (yoda)
> > >
> > > Someone tell me - am I off base here or am I seeing through their
> > > smoke screen?
> > >
> > > -Roger
> > >
> > > Judith Raya wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Good day from the PCCFMU,
> > > > > The Center for Biological Diversity is wildly flailing about
> > > > > blaming everyone including the state of Arizona for the fires in
>
> > > > > the White Mountains. These people are so fanatical in their
> > > > > "love" of mother
> > > > earth
> > > > > that they will see her burn rather than admit to their mistakes
> > > > > and allow responsible land and forest management to take place.
> > > > > It is my belief that most of the leaders in the green groups are
>
> > > > > mentally ill
> > > > and
> > > > > in serious need of deprograming and therapy. Their "love" of the
> earth
> > > >
> > > > > is not love but an unhealthy obsession. What they essentially do
>
> > > > > is stalk their earth love and anyone who may have divergent
> > > > > interests
> or
> > > > > uses for it other than their own. Burning, terrorizing,
> intimidation,
> > > > > obstruction and litigation are their means to "protect" her (
> > > > > in
> > > > their
> > > > > sick minds) from those they state would rape and misuse her. It
> > > > > is time to clearly draw the line between good land management
> > > > > practices and science, and the druidic, earth worshiping
> > > > > fanaticism
> > > > that
> > > > > is being foisted upon the people of North America by the green
> > > > > organizations across the country. Sincerely,
> > > > > Glynn Burkhardt
> > > > >
> > > > > Subject:
> > > > > Arizona Fire Update
> > > > > Date:
> > > > > 24 Jun 2002 23:39:09 -0000
> > > > > From:
> > > > > "Center for Biological Diveristy"
> > > > > <center@b...>
> > > > > Reply-To:
> > > > > notice-reply-i8gkwb4r78xmbm@a...
> > > > > To:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > NEWS ADVISORY: Monday, June 24
> > > > > CONTACT: Brian Segee, (520) 623-5252 x308
> > > > > More Information:
> > > > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.htm
> > > > > l
> > > > >
> > > > > STATE PRESSURED FOREST SERVICE TO HALT FUELS REDUCTION PROJECT
> > > > > IN RODEO BURN AREA
> > > > >
> > > > > GOVERNOR HULL SCAPEGOATS ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOR LARGEST FIRES IN
> > > > > ARIZONA HISTORY
> > > > >
> > > > > As Arizona faces its largest wildfire in history with hundreds
> > > > > of homes destroyed and thousands of people evacuated from their
> > > > > homes, Governor Jane Hull has seized upon the tragedy to advance
>
> > > > > her own anti-environmental
> > > > > agenda: On Sunday, June 23rd, Hull appeared on television to
> > > > > blame environmentalists for the fire.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Governor predictably failed to explain how environmentalists
>
> > > > > were to blame for the fires. Additionally, the Governor failed
> > > > > to mention 1) that a prescribed fire set by the U.S. Forest
> > > > > Service to reduce fuel loads within the burned area was stopped
> > > > > by state intervention,
> > > > > 2) the vast majority of the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forests
> > > > > have been previously logged by the U.S. Forest Service, 3) a
> > > > > recent report by the Government Accounting Office (GAO) found
> > > > > that only 1% of Forest Service fuel reduction projects were
> > > > > challenged with appeals or lawsuits, and 4) a second recent
> > > > > report by the GAO found that the Forest Service has misdirected
> > > > > funds from its massive fuels reduction budget away from the
> > > > > protection of rural communities threatened by fire.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The Los Angeles Times recently reported that a prescribed fire
> > > > > set by the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuels in what is now
> > > > > the Rodeo-Chediski fire was stopped by unwarranted intervention
> > > > > by state agencies:
> > > > >
> > > > > "When controlled burns were set recently in the Apache
> > > > > Sitgreaves National Forest, where the Rodeo fire now rages,
> > > > > nearby residents complained to state air quality officials about
>
> > > > > the smoke. The state pressured Forest Service officials to
> > > > > extinguish the blazes prematurely, Anderson (planner on the
> > > > > Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > > Forest) said. "Other plans to start controlled burns have been
> > > > > blocked by litigation, he said." (17 Blazes Charring the West,
> > > > > Los Angeles Times, 6-23-02).
> > > > >
> > > > > The Governor's scapegoating of environmentalists is
> > > > > fundamentally inaccurate. The Center for Biological Diversity
> > > > > (CBD), Sierra Club, Southwest Forest Alliance and other
> > > > > environmental organizations have long supported the use of both
> > > > > prescribed fire and thinning of small-diameter trees as the most
>
> > > > > effective methods to reduce fire danger within Southwestern
> > > > > ponderosa pine forests. Ironically, CBD sits on Governor's
> > > > > Forest Health/Fire Plan Advisory Committee, a group appointed by
>
> > > > > Jane Hull to advise governor on community protection and
> > > > > forest restoration issues and to make recommendations
> > > > > on where to spend National Fire Plan funds. We also
> > > > > are on Senator Bingaman's (D-NM) Community Forest Restoration
> > > > > Program Advisory Committee, which is charged with distribution
> > > > > of $ 5 million annually to rural communities for forest
> > > > > restoration and community protection.
> > > > >
> > > > > "The Governor is opportunistically and cynically using this
> > > > > on-going tragedy to further an anti-environmental agenda,"
> > > > > stated Brian Segee with CBD. "Not only do we strongly support
> > > > > community protection efforts such as wildland-urban interface
> > > > > treatments, prescribed burning and small-diameter thinning, we
> > > > > are deeply involved in on-going collaborative and governmental
> > > > > efforts to make such goals a reality."
> > > > >
> > > > > Independent studies conducted by the federal government also
> > > > > directly contradict charges that environmental organizations are
>
> > > > > preventing needed fuels reduction projects from being completed.
>
> > > > > As stated in an August 2001 report by the Government Accounting
> > > > > Office (GAO), an independent investigative branch of Congress:
> > > > >
> > > > > "In summary, as of July 18, 2001, the Forest Service has
> > > > > completed the necessary environmental analysis and had decided
> > > > > to implement 1,671 hazardous fuel reduction projects in fiscal
> > > > > year 2001. Of these projects, 20 (about 1 percent) had been
> > > > > appealed and none had been litigated. Appellants included
> > > > > environmental groups, recreation groups, private industry
> > > > > interests, and individuals."
> > > > >
> > > > > Under the National Fire Plan, passed in the wake of 2000's
> > > > > intense fire season, the Forest Service and other federal
> > > > > agencies were given over $2 billion to thin brush and
> > > > > small-diameter trees, with an emphasis on community protection.
> > > > > GAO research has concluded that the Forest Service could not
> > > > > account for how this money was being spent. In a January 2002
> > > > > GAO report entitled "Severe Wildland Fires: Leadership and
> > > > > Accountability Needed to Reduce Risks to Communities and
> > > > > Resources," it is stated:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Over a year after the Congress substantially increased funds to
>
> > > > > reduce hazardous fuels, the federal effort still lacks clearly
> > > > > defined and effective leadership . . .it is not possible to
> > > > > determine if the $796 million appropriated for hazardous fuels
> > > > > reduction in fiscal years 2001 and 2002 is targeted to the
> > > > > communities and other areas at highest risk of severe wildland
> > > > > fires."
> > > > >
> > > > > Finally, forgotten in the Governor's continued and escalating
> > > > > attack against environmentalists is the fact that almost all of
> > > > > the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forests where the two fires are
> > > > > burning has been intensively logged. Almost no area along the
> > > > > relatively flat and easily accessible Mogollon Rim has been
> > > > > spared from logging.
> > > > >
> > > > > For more information,
> > > > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.htm
> > > > > l
> > > > >
> > > > > (end)
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
57311 From: jeepindog <jeepindog@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 6:55pm
Subject: Re: Got my 8.8!
As much of a pain as it will be, I am going to stay with coils.
I would like to have a custom longarm rear end. Anyone want to help
me design it? I actually like the short front arms, for now, and
until I decide to go with tires bigger than the current 35" set I
have on there, I will stay with short arms. The rear end could be
better, and more flexy, so I was thinking about modifying my RE short
arms into long ones. Those are good ends that they use, and I could
canabalize them, and make a four link to get rid of the track bar.
Any ideas/helpers are appreciated.
Lachlan
In az_vjc@y..., "jeepin_in_az" <jeepin_in_az@y...> wrote:
> You gonna stick with coils in the back, or leafs?
>
> Mike Baney
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "jeepindog" <jeepindog@y...> wrote:
> > So I found, and bought, a Ford 8.8 with calipers/rotors, and
> > pretty much everything that it came off the Explorer with. Now I
> > need someone to look at it, and tell me exactly what I will need
to
> > get it under my TJ. I know it needs the obvious stuff, like
being
> > regeared and locked, and brackets... LOL! I need to know if
there
> > are brake line adapters, new lines, etc, and e-brake cables that
> need
> > to be switched, replaced, ??? Any help (in person) will be
> > appreciated. I am in Ahwatukee, at Elliott and I-10.
> >
> > Lachlan
57312 From: Chris benner <offroadfun@t...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 6:35pm
Subject: [FS] 32x11.50
Set of 4 used 32x11.50 R15LT - Dunlop Canyon crawlers. Tires have been 'sipped'. 2 of them have 15-20% tread and one has 30-40% tread. and one has 5-10% tread. all covered under discount hazzard warranty. (tires only, no rims)
$100 obo
I'm in Glendale
Email me if interested.
Attachment: (image/jpeg) myires2.jpg [not stored]
Attachment: (image/jpeg) myires.jpg [not stored]
57313 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:04pm
Subject: [FS] BUILT CJ for sale!
Price: make offer!
Contact: Bill@ 928-774-6024
I still NEED to sell my CJ. It's a late '86 (Dana 44) with a new AMC 360 and new T-18 w/AA Dana 300 kit installed. 4" Superlift, 1" Daystar body lift, ProJection, HEI, lockers, new 33s, TJ flares, hard top, soft top 2 sets of doors, Warn HS9500i, MUCH more! Over $18K invested! Make me an offer...!
57314 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:10pm
Subject: RE: road closures
I've no idea what that really means as I've only been in that area once
in my life, some 12 years ago.
Stu
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: parajeeper02 [mailto:parajeeper02@y...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 1:36 PM
To: Stu Olson
Subject: Re: road closures
June 25, 2002 12:35:13
Road closures
. Arizona 260 is closed from Show Low to Hon Dah and from Show Low to
Star Valley.
. Arizona 377 is closed from Holbrook to Heber.
. Arizona 277 is closed from Snowflake to Heber.
. Arizona 77 is closed about five miles north of Show Low.
. U.S. 60 is closed south of Show Low to the Arizona 73 junction and
north of Show Low to the turnoff to Little Mormon Lake.
National Forest closures
. Prescott National Forest, Apache-Sitgreaves National Forests and
Coronado National Forest are closed to public access.
. Coconino National Forest and Kaibab National Forest have closed
some areas. The most recent closure was Blue Ridge Reservoir, about
50 miles southeast of Flagstaff.
Evacuations
Show Low, Pinetop-Lakeside, Clay Springs, Linden, Heber, Overgaard,
Aripine and Forest Lakes. Total: About 32,000 people.
Red Cross hotline
Information for people living in the affected area or seeking
information:
. The American Red Cross has established a hotline for inquiries from
both evacuees and concerned family members at 1-877-547-3407. This
hotline replaces all previous numbers.
How you can help
For cash donations:
. American Red Cross National Disaster Relief Fund (general relief
fund), 1-800-HELP-NOW; the Salvation Army, (602) 267-4100; the
Arizona Humane Society Wildfire Rescue Fund, 1521 W. Dobbins Road,
Phoenix, AZ 85041; Safeway Food and Drug stores.
For other donations:
. The Salvation Army, 2707 E. Van Buren St.; any Bashas' or Food City
location, where donations will be matched by the store; any Popular
Outdoor Outfitters store.
. Donations can be dropped at all Glendale Fire Stations. Their "wish
list" includes diapers, powdered formula, toiletries for children and
adults, antacids, lip balm, toilet paper, sunscreen, white socks,
clothing, six packs of soda and easy-to-fix foods, such as canned
soup, macaroni and cheese and peanut butter. Items can be dropped off
through Saturday.
Locations: 7505 N. 55th Ave., 6850 W. Bethany Home Road, 14061 N.
59th Ave., 4439 W. Peoria Ave., 6255 W. Union Hills Road, 6801 W.
Deer Valley Road, 9658 N. 59th Ave.
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...> wrote:
> I noticed a list of road closures in the paper today (a friend had
a page
> open and I was looking over their shoulder).
>
> Does anyone really know if the caravan can actually get through. I
talked
> to a MCSO possee member and they had road blocks up this weekend to
keep
> people out.
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
57315 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:17pm
Subject: RE: Greens Screaming Foul
Fred, have you ever considered using paragraphs when your write?
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@c...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 2:28 PM
To: Roger Tomas; Judith Raya
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
But the only areas that need "management" is the forest-urban
boundaries. No
other parts of the forest need management. I taped an interesting thing
last
night ( on the news ). One of the FS people were saying how the public
icon,
Smokey the Bear, you know "only you can prevent forest fires" has
actually
contributed to the problem, by instilling in people the thought that all
forest fires are bad.
They are NOT.... The forest needs fire. The only thing that is bad, or
has
the potential to be bad, is fire on the forest-urban boundaries where
property and/or life is risked. This problem needs to be addressed,
certainly, and I'm sure that it will now. Thinning is require on the
boundaries, and I'm sure that soon, we'll see that happen. Logging
wilderness does not need to happen.
The primary reason that the forest are in the shape that they are today
(overgrown, too much fuel, etc), is a near century old policy of putting
out
every little fire that starts.
If you look back at the Yellowstone fire, and how, "awful" everyone
thought
it was. Well the Park is now healther (by virtually everyones vision)
than
it's probably ever been in remembered history. The Park was really fire
starved. The FS is learning, and we are learning the hard way.
Why do you think that fire is bad ??
Regarding thinning. Logging, IMHO, is not the answer. The parts that
need
thinning, again, on the forest-urban boudaries, are the trees that are
way
over grown and way too thick. These are the smaller trees, not the
larger
trees. The FS person last night, said the same thing, which surprised me
somewhat, as the timber industry is one of the main sources of income
for
the FS and the timber industry is the one that wants into the deeper
wilderness areas and they want the big trees. So, logging won't remove
the
fuel (which is the small trees, thick underbrush, etc). Logging will
simply
remove the larger trees. It's all about money, and really nothing else.
The
logging companies want me (through my taxes) to pay for the roads (that
the
FS would build) so they can get to my (the National Forest belongs to us
all, right) forest, so that they can cut down my trees and make money
for
themselves, not paying me a penny in return. To further all insult, much
of
the timber would be sold overseas (Japan is on of the primary consumers
of
American raw timber) and therefore the resource, or much of it, doesn't
even
stay here.
The fires doesn't hurt the forest, even the really, really, bad ones,
the
crown fires where old trees are killed, like the current fire. The
forest
will recover and it will be healther because of it. The ideal thing is
not
to have crown fires, as then there is nothing for the forest to recover
from. Regular burning doesn't hurt the trees at all, and it keeps
everything
cleaned out. Crown fires do kill mature trees (as does logging), and in
those cases the forest does have to recover and that does take time. But
recover it will. Again, simply look a Yellowstone. Now, if we don't
continue
to screw up, that forest will remain healthy on it's own, but it must be
allowed to burn when fires happen, except on the forest-urban
boundaries.
Go back 150 years ago, or 200 years ago, before there was massive
logging,
before every fire was being attacked. The forest were exteremely healty.
We've screwed it up. The FS service says the same thing. The forest has
been
screwed up only during the last 100 years (almost) of us trying to
"protect"
it. Smokey the Bear did more than anyone every thought that he would ;)
Best,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...>
To: "Judith Raya" <jraya@a...>
Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
> All these discussions center around treatment of the wildland-urban
> interface. They say nothing about the rest of the forest where the
> environmentalists continually push for more wilderness and roadless
> designations.
>
> Speak out both sides of their mouths, the environmentalists do.
(yoda)
>
> Someone tell me - am I off base here or am I seeing through their
> smoke screen?
>
> -Roger
>
> Judith Raya wrote:
> >
> > Good day from the PCCFMU,
> > > The Center for Biological Diversity is wildly flailing about
blaming
> > > everyone including the state of Arizona for the fires in the White
> > > Mountains. These people are so fanatical in their "love" of mother
> > earth
> > > that they will see her burn rather than admit to their mistakes
and
> > > allow responsible land and forest management to take place. It is
my
> > > belief that most of the leaders in the green groups are mentally
ill
> > and
> > > in serious need of deprograming and therapy. Their "love" of the
earth
> >
> > > is not love but an unhealthy obsession. What they essentially do
is
> > > stalk their earth love and anyone who may have divergent interests
or
> > > uses for it other than their own. Burning, terrorizing,
intimidation,
> > > obstruction and litigation are their means to "protect" her ( in
> > their
> > > sick minds) from those they state would rape and misuse her.
> > > It is time to clearly draw the line between good land management
> > > practices and science, and the druidic, earth worshiping
fanaticism
> > that
> > > is being foisted upon the people of North America by the green
> > > organizations across the country.
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Glynn Burkhardt
> > >
> > > Subject:
> > > Arizona Fire Update
> > > Date:
> > > 24 Jun 2002 23:39:09 -0000
> > > From:
> > > "Center for Biological Diveristy"
> > > <center@b...>
> > > Reply-To:
> > > notice-reply-i8gkwb4r78xmbm@a...
> > > To:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > NEWS ADVISORY: Monday, June 24
> > > CONTACT: Brian Segee, (520) 623-5252 x308
> > > More Information:
> > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > >
> > > STATE PRESSURED FOREST SERVICE TO HALT FUELS REDUCTION
> > > PROJECT IN RODEO BURN AREA
> > >
> > > GOVERNOR HULL SCAPEGOATS ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOR LARGEST
> > > FIRES IN ARIZONA HISTORY
> > >
> > > As Arizona faces its largest wildfire in history with
> > > hundreds of homes destroyed and thousands of people
> > > evacuated from their homes, Governor Jane Hull has
> > > seized upon the tragedy to advance her own anti-environmental
> > > agenda: On Sunday, June 23rd, Hull appeared on television
> > > to blame environmentalists for the fire.
> > >
> > > The Governor predictably failed to explain how environmentalists
> > > were to blame for the fires. Additionally, the Governor
> > > failed to mention 1) that a prescribed fire set by
> > > the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuel loads within
> > > the burned area was stopped by state intervention,
> > > 2) the vast majority of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > Forests have been previously logged by the U.S. Forest
> > > Service, 3) a recent report by the Government Accounting
> > > Office (GAO) found that only 1% of Forest Service fuel
> > > reduction projects were challenged with appeals or
> > > lawsuits, and 4) a second recent report by the GAO
> > > found that the Forest Service has misdirected funds
> > > from its massive fuels reduction budget away from the
> > > protection of rural communities threatened by fire.
> > >
> > >
> > > The Los Angeles Times recently reported that a prescribed
> > > fire set by the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuels
> > > in what is now the Rodeo-Chediski fire was stopped
> > > by unwarranted intervention by state agencies:
> > >
> > > "When controlled burns were set recently in the Apache
> > > Sitgreaves National Forest, where the Rodeo fire now
> > > rages, nearby residents complained to state air quality
> > > officials about the smoke. The state pressured Forest
> > > Service officials to extinguish the blazes prematurely,
> > > Anderson (planner on the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > Forest) said. "Other plans to start controlled burns
> > > have been blocked by litigation, he said." (17 Blazes
> > > Charring the West, Los Angeles Times, 6-23-02).
> > >
> > > The Governor's scapegoating of environmentalists is
> > > fundamentally inaccurate. The Center for Biological
> > > Diversity (CBD), Sierra Club, Southwest Forest Alliance
> > > and other environmental organizations have long supported
> > > the use of both prescribed fire and thinning of small-diameter
> > > trees as the most effective methods to reduce fire
> > > danger within Southwestern ponderosa pine forests.
> > > Ironically, CBD sits on Governor's Forest Health/Fire
> > > Plan Advisory Committee, a group appointed by Jane
> > > Hull to advise governor on community protection and
> > > forest restoration issues and to make recommendations
> > > on where to spend National Fire Plan funds. We also
> > > are on Senator Bingaman's (D-NM) Community Forest Restoration
> > > Program Advisory Committee, which is charged with distribution
> > > of $ 5 million annually to rural communities for forest
> > > restoration and community protection.
> > >
> > > "The Governor is opportunistically and cynically using
> > > this on-going tragedy to further an anti-environmental
> > > agenda," stated Brian Segee with CBD. "Not only do
> > > we strongly support community protection efforts such
> > > as wildland-urban interface treatments, prescribed
> > > burning and small-diameter thinning, we are deeply
> > > involved in on-going collaborative and governmental
> > > efforts to make such goals a reality."
> > >
> > > Independent studies conducted by the federal government
> > > also directly contradict charges that environmental
> > > organizations are preventing needed fuels reduction
> > > projects from being completed. As stated in an August
> > > 2001 report by the Government Accounting Office (GAO),
> > > an independent investigative branch of Congress:
> > >
> > > "In summary, as of July 18, 2001, the Forest Service
> > > has completed the necessary environmental analysis
> > > and had decided to implement 1,671 hazardous fuel reduction
> > > projects in fiscal year 2001. Of these projects, 20
> > > (about 1 percent) had been appealed and none had been
> > > litigated. Appellants included environmental groups,
> > > recreation groups, private industry interests, and
> > > individuals."
> > >
> > > Under the National Fire Plan, passed in the wake of
> > > 2000's intense fire season, the Forest Service and
> > > other federal agencies were given over $2 billion
> > > to thin brush and small-diameter trees, with an emphasis
> > > on community protection. GAO research has concluded
> > > that the Forest Service could not account for how this
> > > money was being spent. In a January 2002 GAO report
> > > entitled "Severe Wildland Fires: Leadership and Accountability
> > > Needed to Reduce Risks to Communities and Resources,"
> > > it is stated:
> > >
> > > "Over a year after the Congress substantially increased
> > > funds to reduce hazardous fuels, the federal effort
> > > still lacks clearly defined and effective leadership
> > > . . .it is not possible to determine if the $796 million
> > > appropriated for hazardous fuels reduction in fiscal
> > > years 2001 and 2002 is targeted to the communities
> > > and other areas at highest risk of severe wildland
> > > fires."
> > >
> > > Finally, forgotten in the Governor's continued and
> > > escalating attack against environmentalists is the
> > > fact that almost all of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > Forests where the two fires are burning has been intensively
> > > logged. Almost no area along the relatively flat and
> > > easily accessible Mogollon Rim has been spared from
> > > logging.
> > >
> > > For more information,
> > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > >
> > > (end)
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57316 From: The Acuna Family <mkacuna@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:19pm
Subject: re: Payson run
Does anyone know a quick way to get a hold of Mike Chatfield? The local radio stations are mentioning our run and people are not able to find the info on the home page. I was hoping he could put a little link on the home page to the run information.
Mike
57317 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:20pm
Subject: [FS] CJ tilt column
Price: $100
Contact: Bill@ 928-774-6024
Tilt column in nice shape. I'm not sure what year it fits. It doesn't have the hold-down lever to move the key into LOCK. It IS for an auto, and needs a lock assy.
57318 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:29pm
Subject: RE: Greens Screaming Foul
Jim,
You are correct about 9" trees being too small to be profitable. Look
at a mature Ponderosa pine and compare it to a 9" seedling....LOL WHAT
A JOKE!
I'll borrow this comment made by a recent fire victim....."in your
garden, you harvest the mature plants and allow the younger ones to grow
and be productive. Why would you not do the same in the forest?"
How simple a concept....but how true it is! And you won't find a tree
huggin' greenie behind that statement for a 1000 miles in any direction!
IMO
Tinber Chucker!
<who use to cut pulp wood in Minnesota as a teenager who needed money>
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Hackle [mailto:hackle@q...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 4:01 PM
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
Good point Roger. I would also like to point out that the
current standard
set by the Greenies of 9" trees or smaller is a well researched number.
That
is around the number I would expect where logging is not profitable.
They
say ok to thinning but pick numbers they know will not result in any
cutting. Remember these people are spin doctors just like they cut loose
all
the web links they find do not fit the situation the story they put out
changes with the situation. The have enough money to hire the very best
and
are smart enough to listen to them. Truth is not one of the greenies
main
priorities. Jim Florence
I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member. "Groucho
Marx"
Member of the original dirty half dozen.
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/index.htm/
http://www.rockrats.org/
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Tomas [mailto:tomasr@a...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 3:47 PM
To: FredTJ
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
I strongly disagree with the first sentence below. Any place in a
forest
where lightning might strike or a careless person might start a fire,
the
forest needs to be managed. And to assume that naturally occuring fires
will occur frequently enough to keep the forest healthy without
destroying
it is a gamble I'd prefer not to take.
In any case, based on the current state of undergrowth in our forests, I
as exploited by the Rodeo and Chediski fires, I believe entire forests
need
to be managed - not just the areas near the urban boundary.
IMHO.
-Roger
FredTJ wrote:
>
> But the only areas that need "management" is the forest-urban
boundaries.
No
> other parts of the forest need management. I taped an interesting
thing
last
> night ( on the news ). One of the FS people were saying how the public
icon,
> Smokey the Bear, you know "only you can prevent forest fires" has
actually
> contributed to the problem, by instilling in people the thought that
all
> forest fires are bad.
> They are NOT.... The forest needs fire. The only thing that is bad, or
has
> the potential to be bad, is fire on the forest-urban boundaries where
> property and/or life is risked. This problem needs to be addressed,
> certainly, and I'm sure that it will now. Thinning is require on the
> boundaries, and I'm sure that soon, we'll see that happen. Logging
> wilderness does not need to happen.
> The primary reason that the forest are in the shape that they are
today
> (overgrown, too much fuel, etc), is a near century old policy of
putting
out
> every little fire that starts.
> If you look back at the Yellowstone fire, and how, "awful" everyone
thought
> it was. Well the Park is now healther (by virtually everyones vision)
than
> it's probably ever been in remembered history. The Park was really
fire
> starved. The FS is learning, and we are learning the hard way.
> Why do you think that fire is bad ??
> Regarding thinning. Logging, IMHO, is not the answer. The parts that
need
> thinning, again, on the forest-urban boudaries, are the trees that are
way
> over grown and way too thick. These are the smaller trees, not the
larger
> trees. The FS person last night, said the same thing, which surprised
me
> somewhat, as the timber industry is one of the main sources of income
for
> the FS and the timber industry is the one that wants into the deeper
> wilderness areas and they want the big trees. So, logging won't remove
the
> fuel (which is the small trees, thick underbrush, etc). Logging will
simply
> remove the larger trees. It's all about money, and really nothing
else.
The
> logging companies want me (through my taxes) to pay for the roads
(that
the
> FS would build) so they can get to my (the National Forest belongs to
us
> all, right) forest, so that they can cut down my trees and make money
for
> themselves, not paying me a penny in return. To further all insult,
much
of
> the timber would be sold overseas (Japan is on of the primary
consumers of
> American raw timber) and therefore the resource, or much of it,
doesn't
even
> stay here.
> The fires doesn't hurt the forest, even the really, really, bad ones,
the
> crown fires where old trees are killed, like the current fire. The
forest
> will recover and it will be healther because of it. The ideal thing
is
not
> to have crown fires, as then there is nothing for the forest to
recover
> from. Regular burning doesn't hurt the trees at all, and it keeps
everything
> cleaned out. Crown fires do kill mature trees (as does logging), and
in
> those cases the forest does have to recover and that does take time.
But
> recover it will. Again, simply look a Yellowstone. Now, if we don't
continue
> to screw up, that forest will remain healthy on it's own, but it must
be
> allowed to burn when fires happen, except on the forest-urban
boundaries.
> Go back 150 years ago, or 200 years ago, before there was massive
logging,
> before every fire was being attacked. The forest were exteremely
healty.
> We've screwed it up. The FS service says the same thing. The forest
has
been
> screwed up only during the last 100 years (almost) of us trying to
"protect"
> it. Smokey the Bear did more than anyone every thought that he would
;)
>
> Best,
> Fred
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...>
> To: "Judith Raya" <jraya@a...>
> Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
>
> > All these discussions center around treatment of the wildland-urban
> > interface. They say nothing about the rest of the forest where the
> > environmentalists continually push for more wilderness and roadless
> > designations.
> >
> > Speak out both sides of their mouths, the environmentalists do.
(yoda)
> >
> > Someone tell me - am I off base here or am I seeing through their
> > smoke screen?
> >
> > -Roger
> >
> > Judith Raya wrote:
> > >
> > > Good day from the PCCFMU,
> > > > The Center for Biological Diversity is wildly flailing about
blaming
> > > > everyone including the state of Arizona for the fires in the
White
> > > > Mountains. These people are so fanatical in their "love" of
mother
> > > earth
> > > > that they will see her burn rather than admit to their mistakes
and
> > > > allow responsible land and forest management to take place. It
is my
> > > > belief that most of the leaders in the green groups are mentally
ill
> > > and
> > > > in serious need of deprograming and therapy. Their "love" of the
earth
> > >
> > > > is not love but an unhealthy obsession. What they essentially do
is
> > > > stalk their earth love and anyone who may have divergent
interests
or
> > > > uses for it other than their own. Burning, terrorizing,
intimidation,
> > > > obstruction and litigation are their means to "protect" her (
in
> > > their
> > > > sick minds) from those they state would rape and misuse her.
> > > > It is time to clearly draw the line between good land management
> > > > practices and science, and the druidic, earth worshiping
fanaticism
> > > that
> > > > is being foisted upon the people of North America by the green
> > > > organizations across the country.
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > > Glynn Burkhardt
> > > >
> > > > Subject:
> > > > Arizona Fire Update
> > > > Date:
> > > > 24 Jun 2002 23:39:09 -0000
> > > > From:
> > > > "Center for Biological Diveristy"
> > > > <center@b...>
> > > > Reply-To:
> > > > notice-reply-i8gkwb4r78xmbm@a...
> > > > To:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > NEWS ADVISORY: Monday, June 24
> > > > CONTACT: Brian Segee, (520) 623-5252 x308
> > > > More Information:
> > > >
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > > >
> > > > STATE PRESSURED FOREST SERVICE TO HALT FUELS REDUCTION
> > > > PROJECT IN RODEO BURN AREA
> > > >
> > > > GOVERNOR HULL SCAPEGOATS ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOR LARGEST
> > > > FIRES IN ARIZONA HISTORY
> > > >
> > > > As Arizona faces its largest wildfire in history with
> > > > hundreds of homes destroyed and thousands of people
> > > > evacuated from their homes, Governor Jane Hull has
> > > > seized upon the tragedy to advance her own anti-environmental
> > > > agenda: On Sunday, June 23rd, Hull appeared on television
> > > > to blame environmentalists for the fire.
> > > >
> > > > The Governor predictably failed to explain how environmentalists
> > > > were to blame for the fires. Additionally, the Governor
> > > > failed to mention 1) that a prescribed fire set by
> > > > the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuel loads within
> > > > the burned area was stopped by state intervention,
> > > > 2) the vast majority of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forests have been previously logged by the U.S. Forest
> > > > Service, 3) a recent report by the Government Accounting
> > > > Office (GAO) found that only 1% of Forest Service fuel
> > > > reduction projects were challenged with appeals or
> > > > lawsuits, and 4) a second recent report by the GAO
> > > > found that the Forest Service has misdirected funds
> > > > from its massive fuels reduction budget away from the
> > > > protection of rural communities threatened by fire.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Los Angeles Times recently reported that a prescribed
> > > > fire set by the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuels
> > > > in what is now the Rodeo-Chediski fire was stopped
> > > > by unwarranted intervention by state agencies:
> > > >
> > > > "When controlled burns were set recently in the Apache
> > > > Sitgreaves National Forest, where the Rodeo fire now
> > > > rages, nearby residents complained to state air quality
> > > > officials about the smoke. The state pressured Forest
> > > > Service officials to extinguish the blazes prematurely,
> > > > Anderson (planner on the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forest) said. "Other plans to start controlled burns
> > > > have been blocked by litigation, he said." (17 Blazes
> > > > Charring the West, Los Angeles Times, 6-23-02).
> > > >
> > > > The Governor's scapegoating of environmentalists is
> > > > fundamentally inaccurate. The Center for Biological
> > > > Diversity (CBD), Sierra Club, Southwest Forest Alliance
> > > > and other environmental organizations have long supported
> > > > the use of both prescribed fire and thinning of small-diameter
> > > > trees as the most effective methods to reduce fire
> > > > danger within Southwestern ponderosa pine forests.
> > > > Ironically, CBD sits on Governor's Forest Health/Fire
> > > > Plan Advisory Committee, a group appointed by Jane
> > > > Hull to advise governor on community protection and
> > > > forest restoration issues and to make recommendations
> > > > on where to spend National Fire Plan funds. We also
> > > > are on Senator Bingaman's (D-NM) Community Forest Restoration
> > > > Program Advisory Committee, which is charged with distribution
> > > > of $ 5 million annually to rural communities for forest
> > > > restoration and community protection.
> > > >
> > > > "The Governor is opportunistically and cynically using
> > > > this on-going tragedy to further an anti-environmental
> > > > agenda," stated Brian Segee with CBD. "Not only do
> > > > we strongly support community protection efforts such
> > > > as wildland-urban interface treatments, prescribed
> > > > burning and small-diameter thinning, we are deeply
> > > > involved in on-going collaborative and governmental
> > > > efforts to make such goals a reality."
> > > >
> > > > Independent studies conducted by the federal government
> > > > also directly contradict charges that environmental
> > > > organizations are preventing needed fuels reduction
> > > > projects from being completed. As stated in an August
> > > > 2001 report by the Government Accounting Office (GAO),
> > > > an independent investigative branch of Congress:
> > > >
> > > > "In summary, as of July 18, 2001, the Forest Service
> > > > has completed the necessary environmental analysis
> > > > and had decided to implement 1,671 hazardous fuel reduction
> > > > projects in fiscal year 2001. Of these projects, 20
> > > > (about 1 percent) had been appealed and none had been
> > > > litigated. Appellants included environmental groups,
> > > > recreation groups, private industry interests, and
> > > > individuals."
> > > >
> > > > Under the National Fire Plan, passed in the wake of
> > > > 2000's intense fire season, the Forest Service and
> > > > other federal agencies were given over $2 billion
> > > > to thin brush and small-diameter trees, with an emphasis
> > > > on community protection. GAO research has concluded
> > > > that the Forest Service could not account for how this
> > > > money was being spent. In a January 2002 GAO report
> > > > entitled "Severe Wildland Fires: Leadership and Accountability
> > > > Needed to Reduce Risks to Communities and Resources,"
> > > > it is stated:
> > > >
> > > > "Over a year after the Congress substantially increased
> > > > funds to reduce hazardous fuels, the federal effort
> > > > still lacks clearly defined and effective leadership
> > > > . . .it is not possible to determine if the $796 million
> > > > appropriated for hazardous fuels reduction in fiscal
> > > > years 2001 and 2002 is targeted to the communities
> > > > and other areas at highest risk of severe wildland
> > > > fires."
> > > >
> > > > Finally, forgotten in the Governor's continued and
> > > > escalating attack against environmentalists is the
> > > > fact that almost all of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forests where the two fires are burning has been intensively
> > > > logged. Almost no area along the relatively flat and
> > > > easily accessible Mogollon Rim has been spared from
> > > > logging.
> > > >
> > > > For more information,
> > > >
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > > >
> > > > (end)
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57319 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:33pm
Subject: RE: [Fwd: USFS refuses help on forest fires]
Judith Raya....who are you?
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Judith Raya [mailto:jraya@a...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 3:35 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] [Fwd: USFS refuses help on forest fires]
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: USFS refuses help on forest fires
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:48:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Salars <d_salars@y...>
To: Glynn Burkhardt <gly734@e...>
Federal Government Declines Private Assistance --
Again
(DENVER CO) Thursday, June 13, was not an ordinary day
for Ron Largent.
The Hayman blaze, on its way to becoming the largest
wildfire in the
history of Colorado, was burning out of control at
Lake George, just 25
miles north of Ron's home in Cripple Creek. The U.S.
Forest Service
hadn't been able to contain it. Today Ron was going to
fight the fire.
Ron Largent is the Operations Manager for Anglo Gold
Mining in Cripple
Creek, Colorado. Concerned about the fire's progress,
his company had
volunteered men and equipment to help cut a firebreak.
The Pueblo office
of the US Forest Service had indicated it could use
three pieces of
earthmoving machinery: two Caterpillar D10 bulldozers,
and one D8. The
600-horsepower D10 has an 18' blade and is almost
seven feet tall. It
can uproot large trees without even breathing hard.
Anglo Gold had already arranged with Ames Construction
of Denver to move
the bulldozers to the base camp at Lake George.
Special trailers for
moving them had been driven to Colorado -- one from
Utah, the other from
Kansas. Anglo Gold and Ames Construction were
splitting the $5,000 cost
of transporting the dozers to Lake George.
The dozers pulled into Lake George on Thursday
afternoon, accompanied by
a bevy of heavy equipment operators from the mine who
were ready to run
the equipment 24 hours a day and cut a firebreak from
Lake George to
Divide, then over to Woodland Park. The men figured
they could cut a 35'
wide firebreak for 20 miles through the forest in
about a week. And they
were offering to do this at no cost to the government.
They just wanted
to help.
Incredibly, the U.S. Forest Service turned them down.
Kim Martin, the
Incident Commander for the Forest Service, told Ron
"The equipment is
too heavy. It will tear up the land."
Ron's a big-hearted guy. He still wanted to help. He
expanded Anglo
Gold's offer of assistance. Not only would they cut a
20-mile firebreak
to help contain the fire at no charge to the Forest
Service -- Anglo
Gold would also commit to replant trees in the
affected area once the
fire was out. But Martin was having none of it.
On Friday, June 14, Ron Largent and his crew returned
to Cripple Creek.
A week later, they're still seething. The fire remains
uncontrolled on
its southeastern flank. And the Forest Service is
finally calling in
bulldozers. Little ones, from the Army, in Fort
Carson. Almost fifty
miles away.
After recounting this story, Mr. Kent McNaughton, a
resident of
Crystola, said, "I'm a homeowner in the area
threatened by this fire.
The Forest Service calls it 'a monster.' I'm incensed
that the Forest
Service has decided to fight the fire with one hand
tied behind their
back. They're fighting a bear with a pea shooter. They
needed a rifle;
and when it was offered, they declined it."
When asked for his reaction, Rick Stanley, the
Libertarian candidate for
U.S. Senate, was characteristically blunt. "Two years
ago, when the fire
started at Mesa Verde National Park, local volunteers
showed up with
bulldozers and water trucks.* They could have put the
fire out in a
matter of hours. But the National Park Service was
unwilling to accept
private assistance. 24,000 acres of beautiful forest
land was
incinerated before that fire burned itself out."
"Apparently the federal government doesn't want to let
American citizens
defend our nation against the threat of wildfire,"
Stanley continued.
"At the Hayman fire, Kim Martin was unwilling to
accept the destruction
of 90 acres** of forest by bulldozers. Apparently it
makes more sense to
let 130,000 acres of forest land burn to the ground,
and to force
thousands of innocent people to flee their homes, than
to let hard
working Americans take a hand in defending their
property from natural
disaster. Not!
"This unconstitutional government is not only denying
our liberty -- it
is also destroying our property. The federal
government has no lawful
authority to prevent civilian volunteers from
assisting in this nation's
defense. And yet they do it again, and again, and
again.
"How long will America suffer under this
unconstitutional government?
When will the citizenry decide that enough is enough?"
##30##
* See articles by Janelle Holden in the Cortez
Journal, July 29, 2000.
** A firebreak 35' wide and 20 miles long is 3.6
million sq. ft., or
roughly 90 acres.
Kent McNaughton (719-686-0676) provided most of the
facts in this story.
He interviewed Ron Largent (719-689-4042) and Ames
Construction
(719-689-5531) to learn the details.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57320 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:55pm
Subject: RE: A couple of Jeep questions
James,
Having the top mounts strip out is a common thing on TJs. To replace them
after they have stripped out, just put a standard screwdriver in the groove
(notch) that the screw threads through and force the U part open at the top
of the U as you turn the torx screw out... it should back right out. If
not, just apply more force and you will split the plastic U and then you can
pitch it out and install your aluminum replacements.
As far as the A/C goes, I have some gauges that we can hook up and measure
both the high and low side pressures to see if anything is happening out of
the ordinary. Have you recently put any freon in your system?
Kind Regards,
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Towle [mailto:James.Towle@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:26 PM
> To: AZ_VJC
> Subject: [az_vjc] A couple of Jeep questions
>
>
> Imagine that...
>
> First question, it appears as though the heil coil in my soft
> top ends, that
> hold the retaining torx screws, in are spinning in the
> plastic ends. I have
> ordered the billet aluminum replacements, so I can take my
> top off for our
> nice cool whether. My question is, has anyone every had this
> happen? What is
> the best to remove the screws now, they just spin in place? I
> know that I
> can figure out a way to get them out, I just want to know the
> easiest way.
>
> Second, the AC in the TJ had started blowing real, real cold,
> no big deal
> right. Well now it is shutting off intermittently. The air
> coming out of the
> vents is extremely cold when it works, it just doesn't work
> constantly. I am
> thinking the head pressure is getting to high and shutting
> the system down.
> Not only does the fan stop, but the compressor shuts off. I
> hope we have an
> vehicle AC guy around. I have an extended warranty I have
> never used, maybe
> it's time to use it?
>
> TIA
>
> --James
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57321 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:57pm
Subject: RE: Greens Screaming Foul
Stu,
Fred is most likely an engineer... engineers have no need for paragraphs
since very long sentences work just fine.
<grin>
Joe West
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stu Olson [mailto:solson8@q...]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 7:17 PM
> To: 'FredTJ'; 'Roger Tomas'
> Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
>
>
> Fred, have you ever considered using paragraphs when your write?
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@c...]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 2:28 PM
> To: Roger Tomas; Judith Raya
> Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
>
> But the only areas that need "management" is the forest-urban
> boundaries. No
> other parts of the forest need management. I taped an
> interesting thing
> last
> night ( on the news ). One of the FS people were saying how the public
> icon,
> Smokey the Bear, you know "only you can prevent forest fires" has
> actually
> contributed to the problem, by instilling in people the
> thought that all
> forest fires are bad.
> They are NOT.... The forest needs fire. The only thing that is bad, or
> has
> the potential to be bad, is fire on the forest-urban boundaries where
> property and/or life is risked. This problem needs to be addressed,
> certainly, and I'm sure that it will now. Thinning is require on the
> boundaries, and I'm sure that soon, we'll see that happen. Logging
> wilderness does not need to happen.
> The primary reason that the forest are in the shape that they
> are today
> (overgrown, too much fuel, etc), is a near century old policy
> of putting
> out
> every little fire that starts.
> If you look back at the Yellowstone fire, and how, "awful" everyone
> thought
> it was. Well the Park is now healther (by virtually everyones vision)
> than
> it's probably ever been in remembered history. The Park was
> really fire
> starved. The FS is learning, and we are learning the hard way.
> Why do you think that fire is bad ??
> Regarding thinning. Logging, IMHO, is not the answer. The parts that
> need
> thinning, again, on the forest-urban boudaries, are the trees that are
> way
> over grown and way too thick. These are the smaller trees, not the
> larger
> trees. The FS person last night, said the same thing, which
> surprised me
> somewhat, as the timber industry is one of the main sources of income
> for
> the FS and the timber industry is the one that wants into the deeper
> wilderness areas and they want the big trees. So, logging won't remove
> the
> fuel (which is the small trees, thick underbrush, etc). Logging will
> simply
> remove the larger trees. It's all about money, and really
> nothing else.
> The
> logging companies want me (through my taxes) to pay for the
> roads (that
> the
> FS would build) so they can get to my (the National Forest
> belongs to us
> all, right) forest, so that they can cut down my trees and make money
> for
> themselves, not paying me a penny in return. To further all
> insult, much
> of
> the timber would be sold overseas (Japan is on of the primary
> consumers
> of
> American raw timber) and therefore the resource, or much of
> it, doesn't
> even
> stay here.
> The fires doesn't hurt the forest, even the really, really, bad ones,
> the
> crown fires where old trees are killed, like the current fire. The
> forest
> will recover and it will be healther because of it. The ideal
> thing is
> not
> to have crown fires, as then there is nothing for the forest
> to recover
> from. Regular burning doesn't hurt the trees at all, and it keeps
> everything
> cleaned out. Crown fires do kill mature trees (as does
> logging), and in
> those cases the forest does have to recover and that does
> take time. But
> recover it will. Again, simply look a Yellowstone. Now, if we don't
> continue
> to screw up, that forest will remain healthy on it's own, but
> it must be
> allowed to burn when fires happen, except on the forest-urban
> boundaries.
> Go back 150 years ago, or 200 years ago, before there was massive
> logging,
> before every fire was being attacked. The forest were
> exteremely healty.
> We've screwed it up. The FS service says the same thing. The
> forest has
> been
> screwed up only during the last 100 years (almost) of us trying to
> "protect"
> it. Smokey the Bear did more than anyone every thought that
> he would ;)
>
>
> Best,
> Fred
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...>
> To: "Judith Raya" <jraya@a...>
> Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
>
>
> > All these discussions center around treatment of the wildland-urban
> > interface. They say nothing about the rest of the forest where the
> > environmentalists continually push for more wilderness and roadless
> > designations.
> >
> > Speak out both sides of their mouths, the environmentalists do.
> (yoda)
> >
> > Someone tell me - am I off base here or am I seeing through their
> > smoke screen?
> >
> > -Roger
> >
> > Judith Raya wrote:
> > >
> > > Good day from the PCCFMU,
> > > > The Center for Biological Diversity is wildly flailing about
> blaming
> > > > everyone including the state of Arizona for the fires
> in the White
> > > > Mountains. These people are so fanatical in their
> "love" of mother
> > > earth
> > > > that they will see her burn rather than admit to their mistakes
> and
> > > > allow responsible land and forest management to take
> place. It is
> my
> > > > belief that most of the leaders in the green groups are mentally
> ill
> > > and
> > > > in serious need of deprograming and therapy. Their "love" of the
> earth
> > >
> > > > is not love but an unhealthy obsession. What they essentially do
> is
> > > > stalk their earth love and anyone who may have
> divergent interests
> or
> > > > uses for it other than their own. Burning, terrorizing,
> intimidation,
> > > > obstruction and litigation are their means to
> "protect" her ( in
> > > their
> > > > sick minds) from those they state would rape and misuse her.
> > > > It is time to clearly draw the line between good land management
> > > > practices and science, and the druidic, earth worshiping
> fanaticism
> > > that
> > > > is being foisted upon the people of North America by the green
> > > > organizations across the country.
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > > Glynn Burkhardt
> > > >
> > > > Subject:
> > > > Arizona Fire Update
> > > > Date:
> > > > 24 Jun 2002 23:39:09 -0000
> > > > From:
> > > > "Center for Biological Diveristy"
> > > > <center@b...>
> > > > Reply-To:
> > > > notice-reply-i8gkwb4r78xmbm@a...
> > > > To:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > NEWS ADVISORY: Monday, June 24
> > > > CONTACT: Brian Segee, (520) 623-5252 x308
> > > > More Information:
> > > >
> http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > > >
> > > > STATE PRESSURED FOREST SERVICE TO HALT FUELS REDUCTION
> > > > PROJECT IN RODEO BURN AREA
> > > >
> > > > GOVERNOR HULL SCAPEGOATS ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOR LARGEST
> > > > FIRES IN ARIZONA HISTORY
> > > >
> > > > As Arizona faces its largest wildfire in history with
> > > > hundreds of homes destroyed and thousands of people
> > > > evacuated from their homes, Governor Jane Hull has
> > > > seized upon the tragedy to advance her own anti-environmental
> > > > agenda: On Sunday, June 23rd, Hull appeared on television
> > > > to blame environmentalists for the fire.
> > > >
> > > > The Governor predictably failed to explain how environmentalists
> > > > were to blame for the fires. Additionally, the Governor
> > > > failed to mention 1) that a prescribed fire set by
> > > > the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuel loads within
> > > > the burned area was stopped by state intervention,
> > > > 2) the vast majority of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forests have been previously logged by the U.S. Forest
> > > > Service, 3) a recent report by the Government Accounting
> > > > Office (GAO) found that only 1% of Forest Service fuel
> > > > reduction projects were challenged with appeals or
> > > > lawsuits, and 4) a second recent report by the GAO
> > > > found that the Forest Service has misdirected funds
> > > > from its massive fuels reduction budget away from the
> > > > protection of rural communities threatened by fire.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Los Angeles Times recently reported that a prescribed
> > > > fire set by the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuels
> > > > in what is now the Rodeo-Chediski fire was stopped
> > > > by unwarranted intervention by state agencies:
> > > >
> > > > "When controlled burns were set recently in the Apache
> > > > Sitgreaves National Forest, where the Rodeo fire now
> > > > rages, nearby residents complained to state air quality
> > > > officials about the smoke. The state pressured Forest
> > > > Service officials to extinguish the blazes prematurely,
> > > > Anderson (planner on the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forest) said. "Other plans to start controlled burns
> > > > have been blocked by litigation, he said." (17 Blazes
> > > > Charring the West, Los Angeles Times, 6-23-02).
> > > >
> > > > The Governor's scapegoating of environmentalists is
> > > > fundamentally inaccurate. The Center for Biological
> > > > Diversity (CBD), Sierra Club, Southwest Forest Alliance
> > > > and other environmental organizations have long supported
> > > > the use of both prescribed fire and thinning of small-diameter
> > > > trees as the most effective methods to reduce fire
> > > > danger within Southwestern ponderosa pine forests.
> > > > Ironically, CBD sits on Governor's Forest Health/Fire
> > > > Plan Advisory Committee, a group appointed by Jane
> > > > Hull to advise governor on community protection and
> > > > forest restoration issues and to make recommendations
> > > > on where to spend National Fire Plan funds. We also
> > > > are on Senator Bingaman's (D-NM) Community Forest Restoration
> > > > Program Advisory Committee, which is charged with distribution
> > > > of $ 5 million annually to rural communities for forest
> > > > restoration and community protection.
> > > >
> > > > "The Governor is opportunistically and cynically using
> > > > this on-going tragedy to further an anti-environmental
> > > > agenda," stated Brian Segee with CBD. "Not only do
> > > > we strongly support community protection efforts such
> > > > as wildland-urban interface treatments, prescribed
> > > > burning and small-diameter thinning, we are deeply
> > > > involved in on-going collaborative and governmental
> > > > efforts to make such goals a reality."
> > > >
> > > > Independent studies conducted by the federal government
> > > > also directly contradict charges that environmental
> > > > organizations are preventing needed fuels reduction
> > > > projects from being completed. As stated in an August
> > > > 2001 report by the Government Accounting Office (GAO),
> > > > an independent investigative branch of Congress:
> > > >
> > > > "In summary, as of July 18, 2001, the Forest Service
> > > > has completed the necessary environmental analysis
> > > > and had decided to implement 1,671 hazardous fuel reduction
> > > > projects in fiscal year 2001. Of these projects, 20
> > > > (about 1 percent) had been appealed and none had been
> > > > litigated. Appellants included environmental groups,
> > > > recreation groups, private industry interests, and
> > > > individuals."
> > > >
> > > > Under the National Fire Plan, passed in the wake of
> > > > 2000's intense fire season, the Forest Service and
> > > > other federal agencies were given over $2 billion
> > > > to thin brush and small-diameter trees, with an emphasis
> > > > on community protection. GAO research has concluded
> > > > that the Forest Service could not account for how this
> > > > money was being spent. In a January 2002 GAO report
> > > > entitled "Severe Wildland Fires: Leadership and Accountability
> > > > Needed to Reduce Risks to Communities and Resources,"
> > > > it is stated:
> > > >
> > > > "Over a year after the Congress substantially increased
> > > > funds to reduce hazardous fuels, the federal effort
> > > > still lacks clearly defined and effective leadership
> > > > . . .it is not possible to determine if the $796 million
> > > > appropriated for hazardous fuels reduction in fiscal
> > > > years 2001 and 2002 is targeted to the communities
> > > > and other areas at highest risk of severe wildland
> > > > fires."
> > > >
> > > > Finally, forgotten in the Governor's continued and
> > > > escalating attack against environmentalists is the
> > > > fact that almost all of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forests where the two fires are burning has been intensively
> > > > logged. Almost no area along the relatively flat and
> > > > easily accessible Mogollon Rim has been spared from
> > > > logging.
> > > >
> > > > For more information,
> > > >
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > >
> > > (end)
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57322 From: RICK BEER <RIKNAZ@M...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:06pm
Subject: is there any member displaced by the fire
I was wondering do we have any members affected by the fire
THANKS RICK BEER
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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57323 From: Hogan Whittall <hogan@e...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:12pm
Subject: Re: is there any member displaced by the fire
So far the only people affected, that I know of, are my wife's parents. Their house is on the west side of Show Low near Fool Hollow Lake. They've been staying with us when they're not working down in Bisbee (He's a civil engineer working w/ ADOT, mostly retired.)
No worries here, though. We're all prepared and they're all outfitted with what they need, waiting is a killer. :)
Also, I don't know if anyone else read about this, but a woman was arrested today in Pinetop-Lakeside after starting a fire in a subdivision. Being held on $300,000 bail for arson and endangering 16 lives. What gives?!
--
Hogan Whittall
----- Original Message -----
From: RICK BEER
To: JEEP
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 8:06 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] is there any member displaced by the fire
I was wondering do we have any members affected by the fire
THANKS RICK BEER
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
57324 From: jetowle2000 <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:18pm
Subject: Re: A couple of Jeep questions
I have done anything to the AC. I can't even remember the exact day
it started, because the first time it just turned off once and has
been slowly going down hill since then.
I would think the pressure is getting to low to operate, this would
make more sense. The thing that confuses me is that the air is so
cold.
--James
> As far as the A/C goes, I have some gauges that we can hook up and
measure
> both the high and low side pressures to see if anything is
happening out of
> the ordinary. Have you recently put any freon in your system?
>
57325 From: jetowle2000 <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:21pm
Subject: Re: is there any member displaced by the fire
I am thinking Bill Witt& son(s) are the only active members. He
hasn't checked in yet.
--- In az_vjc@y..., "RICK BEER" <RIKNAZ@M...> wrote:
> I was wondering do we have any members affected by the fire
>
> THANKS RICK BEERGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer
download : http://explorer.msn.com
57326 From: iamskybum <scott@v...>
Date: Tue Jun 2
57302 From: robert_j_rogers2 <robert.rogers@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:48pm
Subject: The invisable man?
On the Trip Attendees list for Saterday who the invisable man. How
can nobody be tentative.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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57303 From: Chatfield, Mike <Mike@A...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:03pm
Subject: RE: The invisable man?
Simple, just don't put a name (last or first) in your profile and then join
a run. :)
- Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: robert_j_rogers2 [mailto:robert.rogers@c...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 4:49 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] The invisable man?
On the Trip Attendees list for Saterday who the invisable man. How
can nobody be tentative.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57304 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:26pm
Subject: A couple of Jeep questions
Imagine that...
First question, it appears as though the heil coil in my soft top ends, that
hold the retaining torx screws, in are spinning in the plastic ends. I have
ordered the billet aluminum replacements, so I can take my top off for our
nice cool whether. My question is, has anyone every had this happen? What is
the best to remove the screws now, they just spin in place? I know that I
can figure out a way to get them out, I just want to know the easiest way.
Second, the AC in the TJ had started blowing real, real cold, no big deal
right. Well now it is shutting off intermittently. The air coming out of the
vents is extremely cold when it works, it just doesn't work constantly. I am
thinking the head pressure is getting to high and shutting the system down.
Not only does the fan stop, but the compressor shuts off. I hope we have an
vehicle AC guy around. I have an extended warranty I have never used, maybe
it's time to use it?
TIA
--James
57305 From: azlorangers <azlorangers@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:27pm
Subject: REPOST Need a good shop in Chandler
Hey folks, last Monday I posted that my coworker needs a good shop in
Chandler area. Someone sent me a message for a shop around Chandler
Blvd, not Rich's Automotive. I gave that info to her, and she lost
it (big surprise for this woman HA!).
Can someone resend that information, but this time directly to her...
Jodi Jones Jodi@e...
It was someone who knew the owner's name, I think it was Frank or
something... the guy she talked with was Shawn.
Thanks!!
Glenn
57306 From: tj_angel_113 <angel_113_@h...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:53pm
Subject: Do you think it will rain tonight?
Do you guys see those dark clouds??? I really hope it rains.
Angel
57307 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:55pm
Subject: RE: Greens Screaming Foul
Hackle,
Fred = good guy and a wheeler. With a differing opinion. So what. He
likes to wheel and I don't think he would do anything to lessen anyone's
ability or future ability to do the same.
My stand -
I will say that yes the forest were in great shape before man arrived
but now that man is here the forests need to be managed because a fire
could mean destroying what man has built and or wants to build. And the
forest needs to be enjoyed.
Having said that I don't think anyone knows enough about the forest to
properly manage them specially for the long term (think centuries).
Joey K
-----Original Message-----
From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@c...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 4:27 PM
To: Hackle
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
Mmmmm, I don't "sign his messages" ?? Ever one has been signed, I
usually use "Best, Fred" or "Cheers, Fred" or ":) Fred". What more do
you want ?? I've posted here on somewhat of a regular basis for some
time (maybe over a year, I really can't remember). What more would you
like to know. Stu has met me, Chris K. has met me, Linda L, has met me,
DougB has met me (I've done a handful of runs with him). Joey has met
me (H2H), mmmmm, perhaps others. I live in Tucson, so don't get up to
Phoenix and the area much. Yes, I have a TJ. A nicely setup TJ. I
actually don't expect anyone to stand up and say "hey, I know him"...
People obviously think I'm green now ;) I belong to no "green" groups,
never had, probably never will. There are always two sides to every
issue, and I've been pounded and pounded by one side, and now I'm
looking at both sides, and asking questions and stating, simply, my
opinions, as are others here. Why are you upset ? What's upset you about
the post. That I happen to believe that forest fires, aren't be
defination bad, or that the timber industry shouldn't be allowed to log
where ever and when ever they want. Sorry if that upsets you. Really.
Now, Jim, since you've put words in my mouth "adding wilderness area",
please show me, in one of my post where I said that I wanted to add
wilderness areas for example. As I explained in a previous e-mail, for
myself, and myself only, I'm on a fact finding mission. I've been
following various of these issues off and on for many years, but know,
for some reason, I'm looking for cold hard facts and I'm finding some.
Anyway, I won't be posting much more on any of these issues. People have
there own ideas, and that's the way it should be. I simply believe that
forest fires (except, obviously, in and around populated areas) are NOT
a bad thing, but actually good.
NOTE: signed ;)
Best ,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hackle" <hackle@q...>
Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 3:15 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
> Who is FredTJ he does not sign his messages and he spends his time
> explaining things about how great the greenie's are? Has anyone ever
> met
him
> on a run does he have a TJ?
> He avoids explaining how stopping roads and adding wilderness area
> stops fires. (this is a greenie tool correct) If someone knows him and
> I am off base let me know. But for someone that has not been involved
> with many e-mails in the past he seems to be trying
to
> make up for it on this subject. Jim Florence
>
> I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member.
> "Groucho Marx" Member of the original dirty half dozen.
> http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/index.htm/
> http://www.rockrats.org/
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@c...]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 2:28 PM
> To: Roger Tomas; Judith Raya
> Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
>
>
> But the only areas that need "management" is the forest-urban
> boundaries.
No
> other parts of the forest need management. I taped an interesting
> thing
last
> night ( on the news ). One of the FS people were saying how the public
icon,
> Smokey the Bear, you know "only you can prevent forest fires" has
> actually contributed to the problem, by instilling in people the
> thought that all forest fires are bad. They are NOT.... The forest
> needs fire. The only thing that is bad, or has the potential to be
> bad, is fire on the forest-urban boundaries where property and/or life
> is risked. This problem needs to be addressed, certainly, and I'm sure
> that it will now. Thinning is require on the boundaries, and I'm sure
> that soon, we'll see that happen. Logging wilderness does not need to
> happen. The primary reason that the forest are in the shape that they
> are today (overgrown, too much fuel, etc), is a near century old
> policy of putting
out
> every little fire that starts.
> If you look back at the Yellowstone fire, and how, "awful" everyone
thought
> it was. Well the Park is now healther (by virtually everyones vision)
> than it's probably ever been in remembered history. The Park was
> really fire starved. The FS is learning, and we are learning the hard
> way. Why do you think that fire is bad ?? Regarding thinning. Logging,
> IMHO, is not the answer. The parts that need thinning, again, on the
> forest-urban boudaries, are the trees that are way over grown and way
> too thick. These are the smaller trees, not the larger trees. The FS
> person last night, said the same thing, which surprised me somewhat,
> as the timber industry is one of the main sources of income for the FS
> and the timber industry is the one that wants into the deeper
> wilderness areas and they want the big trees. So, logging won't remove
> the fuel (which is the small trees, thick underbrush, etc). Logging
> will
simply
> remove the larger trees. It's all about money, and really nothing
> else.
The
> logging companies want me (through my taxes) to pay for the roads
> (that
the
> FS would build) so they can get to my (the National Forest belongs to
> us all, right) forest, so that they can cut down my trees and make
> money for themselves, not paying me a penny in return. To further all
> insult, much
of
> the timber would be sold overseas (Japan is on of the primary
> consumers of American raw timber) and therefore the resource, or much
> of it, doesn't
even
> stay here.
> The fires doesn't hurt the forest, even the really, really, bad ones,
> the crown fires where old trees are killed, like the current fire. The
> forest will recover and it will be healther because of it. The ideal
> thing is
not
> to have crown fires, as then there is nothing for the forest to
> recover from. Regular burning doesn't hurt the trees at all, and it
> keeps
everything
> cleaned out. Crown fires do kill mature trees (as does logging), and
> in those cases the forest does have to recover and that does take
> time. But recover it will. Again, simply look a Yellowstone. Now, if
> we don't
continue
> to screw up, that forest will remain healthy on it's own, but it must
> be allowed to burn when fires happen, except on the forest-urban
> boundaries. Go back 150 years ago, or 200 years ago, before there was
> massive logging, before every fire was being attacked. The forest were
> exteremely healty. We've screwed it up. The FS service says the same
> thing. The forest has
been
> screwed up only during the last 100 years (almost) of us trying to
"protect"
> it. Smokey the Bear did more than anyone every thought that he would
> ;)
>
>
> Best,
> Fred
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...>
> To: "Judith Raya" <jraya@a...>
> Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
>
>
> > All these discussions center around treatment of the wildland-urban
> > interface. They say nothing about the rest of the forest where the
> > environmentalists continually push for more wilderness and roadless
> > designations.
> >
> > Speak out both sides of their mouths, the environmentalists do.
> > (yoda)
> >
> > Someone tell me - am I off base here or am I seeing through their
> > smoke screen?
> >
> > -Roger
> >
> > Judith Raya wrote:
> > >
> > > Good day from the PCCFMU,
> > > > The Center for Biological Diversity is wildly flailing about
> > > > blaming everyone including the state of Arizona for the fires in
> > > > the White Mountains. These people are so fanatical in their
> > > > "love" of mother
> > > earth
> > > > that they will see her burn rather than admit to their mistakes
> > > > and allow responsible land and forest management to take place.
> > > > It is my belief that most of the leaders in the green groups are
> > > > mentally ill
> > > and
> > > > in serious need of deprograming and therapy. Their "love" of the
earth
> > >
> > > > is not love but an unhealthy obsession. What they essentially do
> > > > is stalk their earth love and anyone who may have divergent
> > > > interests
or
> > > > uses for it other than their own. Burning, terrorizing,
intimidation,
> > > > obstruction and litigation are their means to "protect" her (
> > > > in
> > > their
> > > > sick minds) from those they state would rape and misuse her. It
> > > > is time to clearly draw the line between good land management
> > > > practices and science, and the druidic, earth worshiping
> > > > fanaticism
> > > that
> > > > is being foisted upon the people of North America by the green
> > > > organizations across the country. Sincerely,
> > > > Glynn Burkhardt
> > > >
> > > > Subject:
> > > > Arizona Fire Update
> > > > Date:
> > > > 24 Jun 2002 23:39:09 -0000
> > > > From:
> > > > "Center for Biological Diveristy"
> > > > <center@b...>
> > > > Reply-To:
> > > > notice-reply-i8gkwb4r78xmbm@a...
> > > > To:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > NEWS ADVISORY: Monday, June 24
> > > > CONTACT: Brian Segee, (520) 623-5252 x308
> > > > More Information:
> > > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.htm
> > > > l
> > > >
> > > > STATE PRESSURED FOREST SERVICE TO HALT FUELS REDUCTION PROJECT
> > > > IN RODEO BURN AREA
> > > >
> > > > GOVERNOR HULL SCAPEGOATS ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOR LARGEST FIRES IN
> > > > ARIZONA HISTORY
> > > >
> > > > As Arizona faces its largest wildfire in history with hundreds
> > > > of homes destroyed and thousands of people evacuated from their
> > > > homes, Governor Jane Hull has seized upon the tragedy to advance
> > > > her own anti-environmental
> > > > agenda: On Sunday, June 23rd, Hull appeared on television to
> > > > blame environmentalists for the fire.
> > > >
> > > > The Governor predictably failed to explain how environmentalists
> > > > were to blame for the fires. Additionally, the Governor failed
> > > > to mention 1) that a prescribed fire set by the U.S. Forest
> > > > Service to reduce fuel loads within the burned area was stopped
> > > > by state intervention,
> > > > 2) the vast majority of the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forests
> > > > have been previously logged by the U.S. Forest Service, 3) a
> > > > recent report by the Government Accounting Office (GAO) found
> > > > that only 1% of Forest Service fuel reduction projects were
> > > > challenged with appeals or lawsuits, and 4) a second recent
> > > > report by the GAO found that the Forest Service has misdirected
> > > > funds from its massive fuels reduction budget away from the
> > > > protection of rural communities threatened by fire.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Los Angeles Times recently reported that a prescribed fire
> > > > set by the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuels in what is now
> > > > the Rodeo-Chediski fire was stopped by unwarranted intervention
> > > > by state agencies:
> > > >
> > > > "When controlled burns were set recently in the Apache
> > > > Sitgreaves National Forest, where the Rodeo fire now rages,
> > > > nearby residents complained to state air quality officials about
> > > > the smoke. The state pressured Forest Service officials to
> > > > extinguish the blazes prematurely, Anderson (planner on the
> > > > Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forest) said. "Other plans to start controlled burns have been
> > > > blocked by litigation, he said." (17 Blazes Charring the West,
> > > > Los Angeles Times, 6-23-02).
> > > >
> > > > The Governor's scapegoating of environmentalists is
> > > > fundamentally inaccurate. The Center for Biological Diversity
> > > > (CBD), Sierra Club, Southwest Forest Alliance and other
> > > > environmental organizations have long supported the use of both
> > > > prescribed fire and thinning of small-diameter trees as the most
> > > > effective methods to reduce fire danger within Southwestern
> > > > ponderosa pine forests. Ironically, CBD sits on Governor's
> > > > Forest Health/Fire Plan Advisory Committee, a group appointed by
> > > > Jane Hull to advise governor on community protection and
> > > > forest restoration issues and to make recommendations
> > > > on where to spend National Fire Plan funds. We also
> > > > are on Senator Bingaman's (D-NM) Community Forest Restoration
> > > > Program Advisory Committee, which is charged with distribution
> > > > of $ 5 million annually to rural communities for forest
> > > > restoration and community protection.
> > > >
> > > > "The Governor is opportunistically and cynically using this
> > > > on-going tragedy to further an anti-environmental agenda,"
> > > > stated Brian Segee with CBD. "Not only do we strongly support
> > > > community protection efforts such as wildland-urban interface
> > > > treatments, prescribed burning and small-diameter thinning, we
> > > > are deeply involved in on-going collaborative and governmental
> > > > efforts to make such goals a reality."
> > > >
> > > > Independent studies conducted by the federal government also
> > > > directly contradict charges that environmental organizations are
> > > > preventing needed fuels reduction projects from being completed.
> > > > As stated in an August 2001 report by the Government Accounting
> > > > Office (GAO), an independent investigative branch of Congress:
> > > >
> > > > "In summary, as of July 18, 2001, the Forest Service has
> > > > completed the necessary environmental analysis and had decided
> > > > to implement 1,671 hazardous fuel reduction projects in fiscal
> > > > year 2001. Of these projects, 20 (about 1 percent) had been
> > > > appealed and none had been litigated. Appellants included
> > > > environmental groups, recreation groups, private industry
> > > > interests, and individuals."
> > > >
> > > > Under the National Fire Plan, passed in the wake of 2000's
> > > > intense fire season, the Forest Service and other federal
> > > > agencies were given over $2 billion to thin brush and
> > > > small-diameter trees, with an emphasis on community protection.
> > > > GAO research has concluded that the Forest Service could not
> > > > account for how this money was being spent. In a January 2002
> > > > GAO report entitled "Severe Wildland Fires: Leadership and
> > > > Accountability Needed to Reduce Risks to Communities and
> > > > Resources," it is stated:
> > > >
> > > > "Over a year after the Congress substantially increased funds to
> > > > reduce hazardous fuels, the federal effort still lacks clearly
> > > > defined and effective leadership . . .it is not possible to
> > > > determine if the $796 million appropriated for hazardous fuels
> > > > reduction in fiscal years 2001 and 2002 is targeted to the
> > > > communities and other areas at highest risk of severe wildland
> > > > fires."
> > > >
> > > > Finally, forgotten in the Governor's continued and escalating
> > > > attack against environmentalists is the fact that almost all of
> > > > the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forests where the two fires are
> > > > burning has been intensively logged. Almost no area along the
> > > > relatively flat and easily accessible Mogollon Rim has been
> > > > spared from logging.
> > > >
> > > > For more information,
> > > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.htm
> > > > l
> > > >
> > > > (end)
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57308 From: bermboy2000 <bermboy@h...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 6:06pm
Subject: Re: possible fire run decal?????
Yeah and the jeep needs square headlights;P Ill take two whites.
Scott Maiden
--- In az_vjc@y..., itsajeepthing28@a... wrote:
> I think its a great idea.... However, really believe that it should
be
> Rodeo-Chedeski....
>
>
> just my 2 cents...
>
> Gary Oglesby
57309 From: jeepindog <jeepindog@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 6:51pm
Subject: Whose green SOA YJ at 4Wheeler's Supply?
Full-width axles, SOA, and giant TSLs!!! Looks good, but whose
is it? AZ license AZRFRDR, an AZVJC sticker, and an AZ Ruff Riders
(spelling of club?) sticker. Didn't see anyone inside, so it must
have been getting some work done?
Lachlan
57310 From: FredTJ <fredtj@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 6:53pm
Subject: Re: Greens Screaming Foul
Joey,
Good post, I agree, not that it seems to matter to some ;) Anyway your
post:
> My stand -
> I will say that yes the forest were in great shape before man arrived
> but now that man is here the forests need to be managed because a fire
> could mean destroying what man has built and or wants to build. And the
> forest needs to be enjoyed.
> Having said that I don't think anyone knows enough about the forest to
> properly manage them specially for the long term (think centuries)
Best,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: "DesertJeep" <joey@d...>
To: "'FredTJ'" <fredtj@c...>; "'Hackle'" <hackle@q...>
Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:55 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
> Hackle,
> Fred = good guy and a wheeler. With a differing opinion. So what. He
> likes to wheel and I don't think he would do anything to lessen anyone's
> ability or future ability to do the same.
>
> My stand -
> I will say that yes the forest were in great shape before man arrived
> but now that man is here the forests need to be managed because a fire
> could mean destroying what man has built and or wants to build. And the
> forest needs to be enjoyed.
> Having said that I don't think anyone knows enough about the forest to
> properly manage them specially for the long term (think centuries).
>
> Joey K
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@c...]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 4:27 PM
> To: Hackle
> Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
>
>
> Mmmmm, I don't "sign his messages" ?? Ever one has been signed, I
> usually use "Best, Fred" or "Cheers, Fred" or ":) Fred". What more do
> you want ?? I've posted here on somewhat of a regular basis for some
> time (maybe over a year, I really can't remember). What more would you
> like to know. Stu has met me, Chris K. has met me, Linda L, has met me,
> DougB has met me (I've done a handful of runs with him). Joey has met
> me (H2H), mmmmm, perhaps others. I live in Tucson, so don't get up to
> Phoenix and the area much. Yes, I have a TJ. A nicely setup TJ. I
> actually don't expect anyone to stand up and say "hey, I know him"...
> People obviously think I'm green now ;) I belong to no "green" groups,
> never had, probably never will. There are always two sides to every
> issue, and I've been pounded and pounded by one side, and now I'm
> looking at both sides, and asking questions and stating, simply, my
> opinions, as are others here. Why are you upset ? What's upset you about
> the post. That I happen to believe that forest fires, aren't be
> defination bad, or that the timber industry shouldn't be allowed to log
> where ever and when ever they want. Sorry if that upsets you. Really.
> Now, Jim, since you've put words in my mouth "adding wilderness area",
> please show me, in one of my post where I said that I wanted to add
> wilderness areas for example. As I explained in a previous e-mail, for
> myself, and myself only, I'm on a fact finding mission. I've been
> following various of these issues off and on for many years, but know,
> for some reason, I'm looking for cold hard facts and I'm finding some.
> Anyway, I won't be posting much more on any of these issues. People have
> there own ideas, and that's the way it should be. I simply believe that
> forest fires (except, obviously, in and around populated areas) are NOT
> a bad thing, but actually good.
>
> NOTE: signed ;)
> Best ,
> Fred
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hackle" <hackle@q...>
> Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 3:15 PM
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
>
>
> > Who is FredTJ he does not sign his messages and he spends his time
> > explaining things about how great the greenie's are? Has anyone ever
> > met
> him
> > on a run does he have a TJ?
> > He avoids explaining how stopping roads and adding wilderness area
> > stops fires. (this is a greenie tool correct) If someone knows him and
>
> > I am off base let me know. But for someone that has not been involved
> > with many e-mails in the past he seems to be trying
> to
> > make up for it on this subject. Jim Florence
> >
> > I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member.
> > "Groucho Marx" Member of the original dirty half dozen.
> > http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/index.htm/
> > http://www.rockrats.org/
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@c...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 2:28 PM
> > To: Roger Tomas; Judith Raya
> > Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
> >
> >
> > But the only areas that need "management" is the forest-urban
> > boundaries.
> No
> > other parts of the forest need management. I taped an interesting
> > thing
> last
> > night ( on the news ). One of the FS people were saying how the public
> icon,
> > Smokey the Bear, you know "only you can prevent forest fires" has
> > actually contributed to the problem, by instilling in people the
> > thought that all forest fires are bad. They are NOT.... The forest
> > needs fire. The only thing that is bad, or has the potential to be
> > bad, is fire on the forest-urban boundaries where property and/or life
>
> > is risked. This problem needs to be addressed, certainly, and I'm sure
>
> > that it will now. Thinning is require on the boundaries, and I'm sure
> > that soon, we'll see that happen. Logging wilderness does not need to
> > happen. The primary reason that the forest are in the shape that they
> > are today (overgrown, too much fuel, etc), is a near century old
> > policy of putting
> out
> > every little fire that starts.
> > If you look back at the Yellowstone fire, and how, "awful" everyone
> thought
> > it was. Well the Park is now healther (by virtually everyones vision)
> > than it's probably ever been in remembered history. The Park was
> > really fire starved. The FS is learning, and we are learning the hard
> > way. Why do you think that fire is bad ?? Regarding thinning. Logging,
>
> > IMHO, is not the answer. The parts that need thinning, again, on the
> > forest-urban boudaries, are the trees that are way over grown and way
> > too thick. These are the smaller trees, not the larger trees. The FS
> > person last night, said the same thing, which surprised me somewhat,
> > as the timber industry is one of the main sources of income for the FS
>
> > and the timber industry is the one that wants into the deeper
> > wilderness areas and they want the big trees. So, logging won't remove
>
> > the fuel (which is the small trees, thick underbrush, etc). Logging
> > will
> simply
> > remove the larger trees. It's all about money, and really nothing
> > else.
> The
> > logging companies want me (through my taxes) to pay for the roads
> > (that
> the
> > FS would build) so they can get to my (the National Forest belongs to
> > us all, right) forest, so that they can cut down my trees and make
> > money for themselves, not paying me a penny in return. To further all
> > insult, much
> of
> > the timber would be sold overseas (Japan is on of the primary
> > consumers of American raw timber) and therefore the resource, or much
> > of it, doesn't
> even
> > stay here.
> > The fires doesn't hurt the forest, even the really, really, bad ones,
> > the crown fires where old trees are killed, like the current fire. The
>
> > forest will recover and it will be healther because of it. The ideal
> > thing is
> not
> > to have crown fires, as then there is nothing for the forest to
> > recover from. Regular burning doesn't hurt the trees at all, and it
> > keeps
> everything
> > cleaned out. Crown fires do kill mature trees (as does logging), and
> > in those cases the forest does have to recover and that does take
> > time. But recover it will. Again, simply look a Yellowstone. Now, if
> > we don't
> continue
> > to screw up, that forest will remain healthy on it's own, but it must
> > be allowed to burn when fires happen, except on the forest-urban
> > boundaries. Go back 150 years ago, or 200 years ago, before there was
> > massive logging, before every fire was being attacked. The forest were
>
> > exteremely healty. We've screwed it up. The FS service says the same
> > thing. The forest has
> been
> > screwed up only during the last 100 years (almost) of us trying to
> "protect"
> > it. Smokey the Bear did more than anyone every thought that he would
> > ;)
> >
> >
> > Best,
> > Fred
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...>
> > To: "Judith Raya" <jraya@a...>
> > Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:00 AM
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
> >
> >
> > > All these discussions center around treatment of the wildland-urban
> > > interface. They say nothing about the rest of the forest where the
> > > environmentalists continually push for more wilderness and roadless
> > > designations.
> > >
> > > Speak out both sides of their mouths, the environmentalists do.
> > > (yoda)
> > >
> > > Someone tell me - am I off base here or am I seeing through their
> > > smoke screen?
> > >
> > > -Roger
> > >
> > > Judith Raya wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Good day from the PCCFMU,
> > > > > The Center for Biological Diversity is wildly flailing about
> > > > > blaming everyone including the state of Arizona for the fires in
>
> > > > > the White Mountains. These people are so fanatical in their
> > > > > "love" of mother
> > > > earth
> > > > > that they will see her burn rather than admit to their mistakes
> > > > > and allow responsible land and forest management to take place.
> > > > > It is my belief that most of the leaders in the green groups are
>
> > > > > mentally ill
> > > > and
> > > > > in serious need of deprograming and therapy. Their "love" of the
> earth
> > > >
> > > > > is not love but an unhealthy obsession. What they essentially do
>
> > > > > is stalk their earth love and anyone who may have divergent
> > > > > interests
> or
> > > > > uses for it other than their own. Burning, terrorizing,
> intimidation,
> > > > > obstruction and litigation are their means to "protect" her (
> > > > > in
> > > > their
> > > > > sick minds) from those they state would rape and misuse her. It
> > > > > is time to clearly draw the line between good land management
> > > > > practices and science, and the druidic, earth worshiping
> > > > > fanaticism
> > > > that
> > > > > is being foisted upon the people of North America by the green
> > > > > organizations across the country. Sincerely,
> > > > > Glynn Burkhardt
> > > > >
> > > > > Subject:
> > > > > Arizona Fire Update
> > > > > Date:
> > > > > 24 Jun 2002 23:39:09 -0000
> > > > > From:
> > > > > "Center for Biological Diveristy"
> > > > > <center@b...>
> > > > > Reply-To:
> > > > > notice-reply-i8gkwb4r78xmbm@a...
> > > > > To:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > NEWS ADVISORY: Monday, June 24
> > > > > CONTACT: Brian Segee, (520) 623-5252 x308
> > > > > More Information:
> > > > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.htm
> > > > > l
> > > > >
> > > > > STATE PRESSURED FOREST SERVICE TO HALT FUELS REDUCTION PROJECT
> > > > > IN RODEO BURN AREA
> > > > >
> > > > > GOVERNOR HULL SCAPEGOATS ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOR LARGEST FIRES IN
> > > > > ARIZONA HISTORY
> > > > >
> > > > > As Arizona faces its largest wildfire in history with hundreds
> > > > > of homes destroyed and thousands of people evacuated from their
> > > > > homes, Governor Jane Hull has seized upon the tragedy to advance
>
> > > > > her own anti-environmental
> > > > > agenda: On Sunday, June 23rd, Hull appeared on television to
> > > > > blame environmentalists for the fire.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Governor predictably failed to explain how environmentalists
>
> > > > > were to blame for the fires. Additionally, the Governor failed
> > > > > to mention 1) that a prescribed fire set by the U.S. Forest
> > > > > Service to reduce fuel loads within the burned area was stopped
> > > > > by state intervention,
> > > > > 2) the vast majority of the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forests
> > > > > have been previously logged by the U.S. Forest Service, 3) a
> > > > > recent report by the Government Accounting Office (GAO) found
> > > > > that only 1% of Forest Service fuel reduction projects were
> > > > > challenged with appeals or lawsuits, and 4) a second recent
> > > > > report by the GAO found that the Forest Service has misdirected
> > > > > funds from its massive fuels reduction budget away from the
> > > > > protection of rural communities threatened by fire.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The Los Angeles Times recently reported that a prescribed fire
> > > > > set by the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuels in what is now
> > > > > the Rodeo-Chediski fire was stopped by unwarranted intervention
> > > > > by state agencies:
> > > > >
> > > > > "When controlled burns were set recently in the Apache
> > > > > Sitgreaves National Forest, where the Rodeo fire now rages,
> > > > > nearby residents complained to state air quality officials about
>
> > > > > the smoke. The state pressured Forest Service officials to
> > > > > extinguish the blazes prematurely, Anderson (planner on the
> > > > > Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > > Forest) said. "Other plans to start controlled burns have been
> > > > > blocked by litigation, he said." (17 Blazes Charring the West,
> > > > > Los Angeles Times, 6-23-02).
> > > > >
> > > > > The Governor's scapegoating of environmentalists is
> > > > > fundamentally inaccurate. The Center for Biological Diversity
> > > > > (CBD), Sierra Club, Southwest Forest Alliance and other
> > > > > environmental organizations have long supported the use of both
> > > > > prescribed fire and thinning of small-diameter trees as the most
>
> > > > > effective methods to reduce fire danger within Southwestern
> > > > > ponderosa pine forests. Ironically, CBD sits on Governor's
> > > > > Forest Health/Fire Plan Advisory Committee, a group appointed by
>
> > > > > Jane Hull to advise governor on community protection and
> > > > > forest restoration issues and to make recommendations
> > > > > on where to spend National Fire Plan funds. We also
> > > > > are on Senator Bingaman's (D-NM) Community Forest Restoration
> > > > > Program Advisory Committee, which is charged with distribution
> > > > > of $ 5 million annually to rural communities for forest
> > > > > restoration and community protection.
> > > > >
> > > > > "The Governor is opportunistically and cynically using this
> > > > > on-going tragedy to further an anti-environmental agenda,"
> > > > > stated Brian Segee with CBD. "Not only do we strongly support
> > > > > community protection efforts such as wildland-urban interface
> > > > > treatments, prescribed burning and small-diameter thinning, we
> > > > > are deeply involved in on-going collaborative and governmental
> > > > > efforts to make such goals a reality."
> > > > >
> > > > > Independent studies conducted by the federal government also
> > > > > directly contradict charges that environmental organizations are
>
> > > > > preventing needed fuels reduction projects from being completed.
>
> > > > > As stated in an August 2001 report by the Government Accounting
> > > > > Office (GAO), an independent investigative branch of Congress:
> > > > >
> > > > > "In summary, as of July 18, 2001, the Forest Service has
> > > > > completed the necessary environmental analysis and had decided
> > > > > to implement 1,671 hazardous fuel reduction projects in fiscal
> > > > > year 2001. Of these projects, 20 (about 1 percent) had been
> > > > > appealed and none had been litigated. Appellants included
> > > > > environmental groups, recreation groups, private industry
> > > > > interests, and individuals."
> > > > >
> > > > > Under the National Fire Plan, passed in the wake of 2000's
> > > > > intense fire season, the Forest Service and other federal
> > > > > agencies were given over $2 billion to thin brush and
> > > > > small-diameter trees, with an emphasis on community protection.
> > > > > GAO research has concluded that the Forest Service could not
> > > > > account for how this money was being spent. In a January 2002
> > > > > GAO report entitled "Severe Wildland Fires: Leadership and
> > > > > Accountability Needed to Reduce Risks to Communities and
> > > > > Resources," it is stated:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Over a year after the Congress substantially increased funds to
>
> > > > > reduce hazardous fuels, the federal effort still lacks clearly
> > > > > defined and effective leadership . . .it is not possible to
> > > > > determine if the $796 million appropriated for hazardous fuels
> > > > > reduction in fiscal years 2001 and 2002 is targeted to the
> > > > > communities and other areas at highest risk of severe wildland
> > > > > fires."
> > > > >
> > > > > Finally, forgotten in the Governor's continued and escalating
> > > > > attack against environmentalists is the fact that almost all of
> > > > > the Apache-Sitgreaves National Forests where the two fires are
> > > > > burning has been intensively logged. Almost no area along the
> > > > > relatively flat and easily accessible Mogollon Rim has been
> > > > > spared from logging.
> > > > >
> > > > > For more information,
> > > > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.htm
> > > > > l
> > > > >
> > > > > (end)
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
57311 From: jeepindog <jeepindog@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 6:55pm
Subject: Re: Got my 8.8!
As much of a pain as it will be, I am going to stay with coils.
I would like to have a custom longarm rear end. Anyone want to help
me design it? I actually like the short front arms, for now, and
until I decide to go with tires bigger than the current 35" set I
have on there, I will stay with short arms. The rear end could be
better, and more flexy, so I was thinking about modifying my RE short
arms into long ones. Those are good ends that they use, and I could
canabalize them, and make a four link to get rid of the track bar.
Any ideas/helpers are appreciated.
Lachlan
In az_vjc@y..., "jeepin_in_az" <jeepin_in_az@y...> wrote:
> You gonna stick with coils in the back, or leafs?
>
> Mike Baney
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "jeepindog" <jeepindog@y...> wrote:
> > So I found, and bought, a Ford 8.8 with calipers/rotors, and
> > pretty much everything that it came off the Explorer with. Now I
> > need someone to look at it, and tell me exactly what I will need
to
> > get it under my TJ. I know it needs the obvious stuff, like
being
> > regeared and locked, and brackets... LOL! I need to know if
there
> > are brake line adapters, new lines, etc, and e-brake cables that
> need
> > to be switched, replaced, ??? Any help (in person) will be
> > appreciated. I am in Ahwatukee, at Elliott and I-10.
> >
> > Lachlan
57312 From: Chris benner <offroadfun@t...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 6:35pm
Subject: [FS] 32x11.50
Set of 4 used 32x11.50 R15LT - Dunlop Canyon crawlers. Tires have been 'sipped'. 2 of them have 15-20% tread and one has 30-40% tread. and one has 5-10% tread. all covered under discount hazzard warranty. (tires only, no rims)
$100 obo
I'm in Glendale
Email me if interested.
Attachment: (image/jpeg) myires2.jpg [not stored]
Attachment: (image/jpeg) myires.jpg [not stored]
57313 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:04pm
Subject: [FS] BUILT CJ for sale!
Price: make offer!
Contact: Bill@ 928-774-6024
I still NEED to sell my CJ. It's a late '86 (Dana 44) with a new AMC 360 and new T-18 w/AA Dana 300 kit installed. 4" Superlift, 1" Daystar body lift, ProJection, HEI, lockers, new 33s, TJ flares, hard top, soft top 2 sets of doors, Warn HS9500i, MUCH more! Over $18K invested! Make me an offer...!
57314 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:10pm
Subject: RE: road closures
I've no idea what that really means as I've only been in that area once
in my life, some 12 years ago.
Stu
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: parajeeper02 [mailto:parajeeper02@y...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 1:36 PM
To: Stu Olson
Subject: Re: road closures
June 25, 2002 12:35:13
Road closures
. Arizona 260 is closed from Show Low to Hon Dah and from Show Low to
Star Valley.
. Arizona 377 is closed from Holbrook to Heber.
. Arizona 277 is closed from Snowflake to Heber.
. Arizona 77 is closed about five miles north of Show Low.
. U.S. 60 is closed south of Show Low to the Arizona 73 junction and
north of Show Low to the turnoff to Little Mormon Lake.
National Forest closures
. Prescott National Forest, Apache-Sitgreaves National Forests and
Coronado National Forest are closed to public access.
. Coconino National Forest and Kaibab National Forest have closed
some areas. The most recent closure was Blue Ridge Reservoir, about
50 miles southeast of Flagstaff.
Evacuations
Show Low, Pinetop-Lakeside, Clay Springs, Linden, Heber, Overgaard,
Aripine and Forest Lakes. Total: About 32,000 people.
Red Cross hotline
Information for people living in the affected area or seeking
information:
. The American Red Cross has established a hotline for inquiries from
both evacuees and concerned family members at 1-877-547-3407. This
hotline replaces all previous numbers.
How you can help
For cash donations:
. American Red Cross National Disaster Relief Fund (general relief
fund), 1-800-HELP-NOW; the Salvation Army, (602) 267-4100; the
Arizona Humane Society Wildfire Rescue Fund, 1521 W. Dobbins Road,
Phoenix, AZ 85041; Safeway Food and Drug stores.
For other donations:
. The Salvation Army, 2707 E. Van Buren St.; any Bashas' or Food City
location, where donations will be matched by the store; any Popular
Outdoor Outfitters store.
. Donations can be dropped at all Glendale Fire Stations. Their "wish
list" includes diapers, powdered formula, toiletries for children and
adults, antacids, lip balm, toilet paper, sunscreen, white socks,
clothing, six packs of soda and easy-to-fix foods, such as canned
soup, macaroni and cheese and peanut butter. Items can be dropped off
through Saturday.
Locations: 7505 N. 55th Ave., 6850 W. Bethany Home Road, 14061 N.
59th Ave., 4439 W. Peoria Ave., 6255 W. Union Hills Road, 6801 W.
Deer Valley Road, 9658 N. 59th Ave.
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...> wrote:
> I noticed a list of road closures in the paper today (a friend had
a page
> open and I was looking over their shoulder).
>
> Does anyone really know if the caravan can actually get through. I
talked
> to a MCSO possee member and they had road blocks up this weekend to
keep
> people out.
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
57315 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:17pm
Subject: RE: Greens Screaming Foul
Fred, have you ever considered using paragraphs when your write?
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@c...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 2:28 PM
To: Roger Tomas; Judith Raya
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
But the only areas that need "management" is the forest-urban
boundaries. No
other parts of the forest need management. I taped an interesting thing
last
night ( on the news ). One of the FS people were saying how the public
icon,
Smokey the Bear, you know "only you can prevent forest fires" has
actually
contributed to the problem, by instilling in people the thought that all
forest fires are bad.
They are NOT.... The forest needs fire. The only thing that is bad, or
has
the potential to be bad, is fire on the forest-urban boundaries where
property and/or life is risked. This problem needs to be addressed,
certainly, and I'm sure that it will now. Thinning is require on the
boundaries, and I'm sure that soon, we'll see that happen. Logging
wilderness does not need to happen.
The primary reason that the forest are in the shape that they are today
(overgrown, too much fuel, etc), is a near century old policy of putting
out
every little fire that starts.
If you look back at the Yellowstone fire, and how, "awful" everyone
thought
it was. Well the Park is now healther (by virtually everyones vision)
than
it's probably ever been in remembered history. The Park was really fire
starved. The FS is learning, and we are learning the hard way.
Why do you think that fire is bad ??
Regarding thinning. Logging, IMHO, is not the answer. The parts that
need
thinning, again, on the forest-urban boudaries, are the trees that are
way
over grown and way too thick. These are the smaller trees, not the
larger
trees. The FS person last night, said the same thing, which surprised me
somewhat, as the timber industry is one of the main sources of income
for
the FS and the timber industry is the one that wants into the deeper
wilderness areas and they want the big trees. So, logging won't remove
the
fuel (which is the small trees, thick underbrush, etc). Logging will
simply
remove the larger trees. It's all about money, and really nothing else.
The
logging companies want me (through my taxes) to pay for the roads (that
the
FS would build) so they can get to my (the National Forest belongs to us
all, right) forest, so that they can cut down my trees and make money
for
themselves, not paying me a penny in return. To further all insult, much
of
the timber would be sold overseas (Japan is on of the primary consumers
of
American raw timber) and therefore the resource, or much of it, doesn't
even
stay here.
The fires doesn't hurt the forest, even the really, really, bad ones,
the
crown fires where old trees are killed, like the current fire. The
forest
will recover and it will be healther because of it. The ideal thing is
not
to have crown fires, as then there is nothing for the forest to recover
from. Regular burning doesn't hurt the trees at all, and it keeps
everything
cleaned out. Crown fires do kill mature trees (as does logging), and in
those cases the forest does have to recover and that does take time. But
recover it will. Again, simply look a Yellowstone. Now, if we don't
continue
to screw up, that forest will remain healthy on it's own, but it must be
allowed to burn when fires happen, except on the forest-urban
boundaries.
Go back 150 years ago, or 200 years ago, before there was massive
logging,
before every fire was being attacked. The forest were exteremely healty.
We've screwed it up. The FS service says the same thing. The forest has
been
screwed up only during the last 100 years (almost) of us trying to
"protect"
it. Smokey the Bear did more than anyone every thought that he would ;)
Best,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...>
To: "Judith Raya" <jraya@a...>
Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
> All these discussions center around treatment of the wildland-urban
> interface. They say nothing about the rest of the forest where the
> environmentalists continually push for more wilderness and roadless
> designations.
>
> Speak out both sides of their mouths, the environmentalists do.
(yoda)
>
> Someone tell me - am I off base here or am I seeing through their
> smoke screen?
>
> -Roger
>
> Judith Raya wrote:
> >
> > Good day from the PCCFMU,
> > > The Center for Biological Diversity is wildly flailing about
blaming
> > > everyone including the state of Arizona for the fires in the White
> > > Mountains. These people are so fanatical in their "love" of mother
> > earth
> > > that they will see her burn rather than admit to their mistakes
and
> > > allow responsible land and forest management to take place. It is
my
> > > belief that most of the leaders in the green groups are mentally
ill
> > and
> > > in serious need of deprograming and therapy. Their "love" of the
earth
> >
> > > is not love but an unhealthy obsession. What they essentially do
is
> > > stalk their earth love and anyone who may have divergent interests
or
> > > uses for it other than their own. Burning, terrorizing,
intimidation,
> > > obstruction and litigation are their means to "protect" her ( in
> > their
> > > sick minds) from those they state would rape and misuse her.
> > > It is time to clearly draw the line between good land management
> > > practices and science, and the druidic, earth worshiping
fanaticism
> > that
> > > is being foisted upon the people of North America by the green
> > > organizations across the country.
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Glynn Burkhardt
> > >
> > > Subject:
> > > Arizona Fire Update
> > > Date:
> > > 24 Jun 2002 23:39:09 -0000
> > > From:
> > > "Center for Biological Diveristy"
> > > <center@b...>
> > > Reply-To:
> > > notice-reply-i8gkwb4r78xmbm@a...
> > > To:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > NEWS ADVISORY: Monday, June 24
> > > CONTACT: Brian Segee, (520) 623-5252 x308
> > > More Information:
> > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > >
> > > STATE PRESSURED FOREST SERVICE TO HALT FUELS REDUCTION
> > > PROJECT IN RODEO BURN AREA
> > >
> > > GOVERNOR HULL SCAPEGOATS ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOR LARGEST
> > > FIRES IN ARIZONA HISTORY
> > >
> > > As Arizona faces its largest wildfire in history with
> > > hundreds of homes destroyed and thousands of people
> > > evacuated from their homes, Governor Jane Hull has
> > > seized upon the tragedy to advance her own anti-environmental
> > > agenda: On Sunday, June 23rd, Hull appeared on television
> > > to blame environmentalists for the fire.
> > >
> > > The Governor predictably failed to explain how environmentalists
> > > were to blame for the fires. Additionally, the Governor
> > > failed to mention 1) that a prescribed fire set by
> > > the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuel loads within
> > > the burned area was stopped by state intervention,
> > > 2) the vast majority of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > Forests have been previously logged by the U.S. Forest
> > > Service, 3) a recent report by the Government Accounting
> > > Office (GAO) found that only 1% of Forest Service fuel
> > > reduction projects were challenged with appeals or
> > > lawsuits, and 4) a second recent report by the GAO
> > > found that the Forest Service has misdirected funds
> > > from its massive fuels reduction budget away from the
> > > protection of rural communities threatened by fire.
> > >
> > >
> > > The Los Angeles Times recently reported that a prescribed
> > > fire set by the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuels
> > > in what is now the Rodeo-Chediski fire was stopped
> > > by unwarranted intervention by state agencies:
> > >
> > > "When controlled burns were set recently in the Apache
> > > Sitgreaves National Forest, where the Rodeo fire now
> > > rages, nearby residents complained to state air quality
> > > officials about the smoke. The state pressured Forest
> > > Service officials to extinguish the blazes prematurely,
> > > Anderson (planner on the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > Forest) said. "Other plans to start controlled burns
> > > have been blocked by litigation, he said." (17 Blazes
> > > Charring the West, Los Angeles Times, 6-23-02).
> > >
> > > The Governor's scapegoating of environmentalists is
> > > fundamentally inaccurate. The Center for Biological
> > > Diversity (CBD), Sierra Club, Southwest Forest Alliance
> > > and other environmental organizations have long supported
> > > the use of both prescribed fire and thinning of small-diameter
> > > trees as the most effective methods to reduce fire
> > > danger within Southwestern ponderosa pine forests.
> > > Ironically, CBD sits on Governor's Forest Health/Fire
> > > Plan Advisory Committee, a group appointed by Jane
> > > Hull to advise governor on community protection and
> > > forest restoration issues and to make recommendations
> > > on where to spend National Fire Plan funds. We also
> > > are on Senator Bingaman's (D-NM) Community Forest Restoration
> > > Program Advisory Committee, which is charged with distribution
> > > of $ 5 million annually to rural communities for forest
> > > restoration and community protection.
> > >
> > > "The Governor is opportunistically and cynically using
> > > this on-going tragedy to further an anti-environmental
> > > agenda," stated Brian Segee with CBD. "Not only do
> > > we strongly support community protection efforts such
> > > as wildland-urban interface treatments, prescribed
> > > burning and small-diameter thinning, we are deeply
> > > involved in on-going collaborative and governmental
> > > efforts to make such goals a reality."
> > >
> > > Independent studies conducted by the federal government
> > > also directly contradict charges that environmental
> > > organizations are preventing needed fuels reduction
> > > projects from being completed. As stated in an August
> > > 2001 report by the Government Accounting Office (GAO),
> > > an independent investigative branch of Congress:
> > >
> > > "In summary, as of July 18, 2001, the Forest Service
> > > has completed the necessary environmental analysis
> > > and had decided to implement 1,671 hazardous fuel reduction
> > > projects in fiscal year 2001. Of these projects, 20
> > > (about 1 percent) had been appealed and none had been
> > > litigated. Appellants included environmental groups,
> > > recreation groups, private industry interests, and
> > > individuals."
> > >
> > > Under the National Fire Plan, passed in the wake of
> > > 2000's intense fire season, the Forest Service and
> > > other federal agencies were given over $2 billion
> > > to thin brush and small-diameter trees, with an emphasis
> > > on community protection. GAO research has concluded
> > > that the Forest Service could not account for how this
> > > money was being spent. In a January 2002 GAO report
> > > entitled "Severe Wildland Fires: Leadership and Accountability
> > > Needed to Reduce Risks to Communities and Resources,"
> > > it is stated:
> > >
> > > "Over a year after the Congress substantially increased
> > > funds to reduce hazardous fuels, the federal effort
> > > still lacks clearly defined and effective leadership
> > > . . .it is not possible to determine if the $796 million
> > > appropriated for hazardous fuels reduction in fiscal
> > > years 2001 and 2002 is targeted to the communities
> > > and other areas at highest risk of severe wildland
> > > fires."
> > >
> > > Finally, forgotten in the Governor's continued and
> > > escalating attack against environmentalists is the
> > > fact that almost all of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > Forests where the two fires are burning has been intensively
> > > logged. Almost no area along the relatively flat and
> > > easily accessible Mogollon Rim has been spared from
> > > logging.
> > >
> > > For more information,
> > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > >
> > > (end)
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57316 From: The Acuna Family <mkacuna@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:19pm
Subject: re: Payson run
Does anyone know a quick way to get a hold of Mike Chatfield? The local radio stations are mentioning our run and people are not able to find the info on the home page. I was hoping he could put a little link on the home page to the run information.
Mike
57317 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:20pm
Subject: [FS] CJ tilt column
Price: $100
Contact: Bill@ 928-774-6024
Tilt column in nice shape. I'm not sure what year it fits. It doesn't have the hold-down lever to move the key into LOCK. It IS for an auto, and needs a lock assy.
57318 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:29pm
Subject: RE: Greens Screaming Foul
Jim,
You are correct about 9" trees being too small to be profitable. Look
at a mature Ponderosa pine and compare it to a 9" seedling....LOL WHAT
A JOKE!
I'll borrow this comment made by a recent fire victim....."in your
garden, you harvest the mature plants and allow the younger ones to grow
and be productive. Why would you not do the same in the forest?"
How simple a concept....but how true it is! And you won't find a tree
huggin' greenie behind that statement for a 1000 miles in any direction!
IMO
Tinber Chucker!
<who use to cut pulp wood in Minnesota as a teenager who needed money>
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Hackle [mailto:hackle@q...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 4:01 PM
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
Good point Roger. I would also like to point out that the
current standard
set by the Greenies of 9" trees or smaller is a well researched number.
That
is around the number I would expect where logging is not profitable.
They
say ok to thinning but pick numbers they know will not result in any
cutting. Remember these people are spin doctors just like they cut loose
all
the web links they find do not fit the situation the story they put out
changes with the situation. The have enough money to hire the very best
and
are smart enough to listen to them. Truth is not one of the greenies
main
priorities. Jim Florence
I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member. "Groucho
Marx"
Member of the original dirty half dozen.
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/index.htm/
http://www.rockrats.org/
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Tomas [mailto:tomasr@a...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 3:47 PM
To: FredTJ
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
I strongly disagree with the first sentence below. Any place in a
forest
where lightning might strike or a careless person might start a fire,
the
forest needs to be managed. And to assume that naturally occuring fires
will occur frequently enough to keep the forest healthy without
destroying
it is a gamble I'd prefer not to take.
In any case, based on the current state of undergrowth in our forests, I
as exploited by the Rodeo and Chediski fires, I believe entire forests
need
to be managed - not just the areas near the urban boundary.
IMHO.
-Roger
FredTJ wrote:
>
> But the only areas that need "management" is the forest-urban
boundaries.
No
> other parts of the forest need management. I taped an interesting
thing
last
> night ( on the news ). One of the FS people were saying how the public
icon,
> Smokey the Bear, you know "only you can prevent forest fires" has
actually
> contributed to the problem, by instilling in people the thought that
all
> forest fires are bad.
> They are NOT.... The forest needs fire. The only thing that is bad, or
has
> the potential to be bad, is fire on the forest-urban boundaries where
> property and/or life is risked. This problem needs to be addressed,
> certainly, and I'm sure that it will now. Thinning is require on the
> boundaries, and I'm sure that soon, we'll see that happen. Logging
> wilderness does not need to happen.
> The primary reason that the forest are in the shape that they are
today
> (overgrown, too much fuel, etc), is a near century old policy of
putting
out
> every little fire that starts.
> If you look back at the Yellowstone fire, and how, "awful" everyone
thought
> it was. Well the Park is now healther (by virtually everyones vision)
than
> it's probably ever been in remembered history. The Park was really
fire
> starved. The FS is learning, and we are learning the hard way.
> Why do you think that fire is bad ??
> Regarding thinning. Logging, IMHO, is not the answer. The parts that
need
> thinning, again, on the forest-urban boudaries, are the trees that are
way
> over grown and way too thick. These are the smaller trees, not the
larger
> trees. The FS person last night, said the same thing, which surprised
me
> somewhat, as the timber industry is one of the main sources of income
for
> the FS and the timber industry is the one that wants into the deeper
> wilderness areas and they want the big trees. So, logging won't remove
the
> fuel (which is the small trees, thick underbrush, etc). Logging will
simply
> remove the larger trees. It's all about money, and really nothing
else.
The
> logging companies want me (through my taxes) to pay for the roads
(that
the
> FS would build) so they can get to my (the National Forest belongs to
us
> all, right) forest, so that they can cut down my trees and make money
for
> themselves, not paying me a penny in return. To further all insult,
much
of
> the timber would be sold overseas (Japan is on of the primary
consumers of
> American raw timber) and therefore the resource, or much of it,
doesn't
even
> stay here.
> The fires doesn't hurt the forest, even the really, really, bad ones,
the
> crown fires where old trees are killed, like the current fire. The
forest
> will recover and it will be healther because of it. The ideal thing
is
not
> to have crown fires, as then there is nothing for the forest to
recover
> from. Regular burning doesn't hurt the trees at all, and it keeps
everything
> cleaned out. Crown fires do kill mature trees (as does logging), and
in
> those cases the forest does have to recover and that does take time.
But
> recover it will. Again, simply look a Yellowstone. Now, if we don't
continue
> to screw up, that forest will remain healthy on it's own, but it must
be
> allowed to burn when fires happen, except on the forest-urban
boundaries.
> Go back 150 years ago, or 200 years ago, before there was massive
logging,
> before every fire was being attacked. The forest were exteremely
healty.
> We've screwed it up. The FS service says the same thing. The forest
has
been
> screwed up only during the last 100 years (almost) of us trying to
"protect"
> it. Smokey the Bear did more than anyone every thought that he would
;)
>
> Best,
> Fred
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...>
> To: "Judith Raya" <jraya@a...>
> Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
>
> > All these discussions center around treatment of the wildland-urban
> > interface. They say nothing about the rest of the forest where the
> > environmentalists continually push for more wilderness and roadless
> > designations.
> >
> > Speak out both sides of their mouths, the environmentalists do.
(yoda)
> >
> > Someone tell me - am I off base here or am I seeing through their
> > smoke screen?
> >
> > -Roger
> >
> > Judith Raya wrote:
> > >
> > > Good day from the PCCFMU,
> > > > The Center for Biological Diversity is wildly flailing about
blaming
> > > > everyone including the state of Arizona for the fires in the
White
> > > > Mountains. These people are so fanatical in their "love" of
mother
> > > earth
> > > > that they will see her burn rather than admit to their mistakes
and
> > > > allow responsible land and forest management to take place. It
is my
> > > > belief that most of the leaders in the green groups are mentally
ill
> > > and
> > > > in serious need of deprograming and therapy. Their "love" of the
earth
> > >
> > > > is not love but an unhealthy obsession. What they essentially do
is
> > > > stalk their earth love and anyone who may have divergent
interests
or
> > > > uses for it other than their own. Burning, terrorizing,
intimidation,
> > > > obstruction and litigation are their means to "protect" her (
in
> > > their
> > > > sick minds) from those they state would rape and misuse her.
> > > > It is time to clearly draw the line between good land management
> > > > practices and science, and the druidic, earth worshiping
fanaticism
> > > that
> > > > is being foisted upon the people of North America by the green
> > > > organizations across the country.
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > > Glynn Burkhardt
> > > >
> > > > Subject:
> > > > Arizona Fire Update
> > > > Date:
> > > > 24 Jun 2002 23:39:09 -0000
> > > > From:
> > > > "Center for Biological Diveristy"
> > > > <center@b...>
> > > > Reply-To:
> > > > notice-reply-i8gkwb4r78xmbm@a...
> > > > To:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > NEWS ADVISORY: Monday, June 24
> > > > CONTACT: Brian Segee, (520) 623-5252 x308
> > > > More Information:
> > > >
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > > >
> > > > STATE PRESSURED FOREST SERVICE TO HALT FUELS REDUCTION
> > > > PROJECT IN RODEO BURN AREA
> > > >
> > > > GOVERNOR HULL SCAPEGOATS ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOR LARGEST
> > > > FIRES IN ARIZONA HISTORY
> > > >
> > > > As Arizona faces its largest wildfire in history with
> > > > hundreds of homes destroyed and thousands of people
> > > > evacuated from their homes, Governor Jane Hull has
> > > > seized upon the tragedy to advance her own anti-environmental
> > > > agenda: On Sunday, June 23rd, Hull appeared on television
> > > > to blame environmentalists for the fire.
> > > >
> > > > The Governor predictably failed to explain how environmentalists
> > > > were to blame for the fires. Additionally, the Governor
> > > > failed to mention 1) that a prescribed fire set by
> > > > the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuel loads within
> > > > the burned area was stopped by state intervention,
> > > > 2) the vast majority of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forests have been previously logged by the U.S. Forest
> > > > Service, 3) a recent report by the Government Accounting
> > > > Office (GAO) found that only 1% of Forest Service fuel
> > > > reduction projects were challenged with appeals or
> > > > lawsuits, and 4) a second recent report by the GAO
> > > > found that the Forest Service has misdirected funds
> > > > from its massive fuels reduction budget away from the
> > > > protection of rural communities threatened by fire.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Los Angeles Times recently reported that a prescribed
> > > > fire set by the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuels
> > > > in what is now the Rodeo-Chediski fire was stopped
> > > > by unwarranted intervention by state agencies:
> > > >
> > > > "When controlled burns were set recently in the Apache
> > > > Sitgreaves National Forest, where the Rodeo fire now
> > > > rages, nearby residents complained to state air quality
> > > > officials about the smoke. The state pressured Forest
> > > > Service officials to extinguish the blazes prematurely,
> > > > Anderson (planner on the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forest) said. "Other plans to start controlled burns
> > > > have been blocked by litigation, he said." (17 Blazes
> > > > Charring the West, Los Angeles Times, 6-23-02).
> > > >
> > > > The Governor's scapegoating of environmentalists is
> > > > fundamentally inaccurate. The Center for Biological
> > > > Diversity (CBD), Sierra Club, Southwest Forest Alliance
> > > > and other environmental organizations have long supported
> > > > the use of both prescribed fire and thinning of small-diameter
> > > > trees as the most effective methods to reduce fire
> > > > danger within Southwestern ponderosa pine forests.
> > > > Ironically, CBD sits on Governor's Forest Health/Fire
> > > > Plan Advisory Committee, a group appointed by Jane
> > > > Hull to advise governor on community protection and
> > > > forest restoration issues and to make recommendations
> > > > on where to spend National Fire Plan funds. We also
> > > > are on Senator Bingaman's (D-NM) Community Forest Restoration
> > > > Program Advisory Committee, which is charged with distribution
> > > > of $ 5 million annually to rural communities for forest
> > > > restoration and community protection.
> > > >
> > > > "The Governor is opportunistically and cynically using
> > > > this on-going tragedy to further an anti-environmental
> > > > agenda," stated Brian Segee with CBD. "Not only do
> > > > we strongly support community protection efforts such
> > > > as wildland-urban interface treatments, prescribed
> > > > burning and small-diameter thinning, we are deeply
> > > > involved in on-going collaborative and governmental
> > > > efforts to make such goals a reality."
> > > >
> > > > Independent studies conducted by the federal government
> > > > also directly contradict charges that environmental
> > > > organizations are preventing needed fuels reduction
> > > > projects from being completed. As stated in an August
> > > > 2001 report by the Government Accounting Office (GAO),
> > > > an independent investigative branch of Congress:
> > > >
> > > > "In summary, as of July 18, 2001, the Forest Service
> > > > has completed the necessary environmental analysis
> > > > and had decided to implement 1,671 hazardous fuel reduction
> > > > projects in fiscal year 2001. Of these projects, 20
> > > > (about 1 percent) had been appealed and none had been
> > > > litigated. Appellants included environmental groups,
> > > > recreation groups, private industry interests, and
> > > > individuals."
> > > >
> > > > Under the National Fire Plan, passed in the wake of
> > > > 2000's intense fire season, the Forest Service and
> > > > other federal agencies were given over $2 billion
> > > > to thin brush and small-diameter trees, with an emphasis
> > > > on community protection. GAO research has concluded
> > > > that the Forest Service could not account for how this
> > > > money was being spent. In a January 2002 GAO report
> > > > entitled "Severe Wildland Fires: Leadership and Accountability
> > > > Needed to Reduce Risks to Communities and Resources,"
> > > > it is stated:
> > > >
> > > > "Over a year after the Congress substantially increased
> > > > funds to reduce hazardous fuels, the federal effort
> > > > still lacks clearly defined and effective leadership
> > > > . . .it is not possible to determine if the $796 million
> > > > appropriated for hazardous fuels reduction in fiscal
> > > > years 2001 and 2002 is targeted to the communities
> > > > and other areas at highest risk of severe wildland
> > > > fires."
> > > >
> > > > Finally, forgotten in the Governor's continued and
> > > > escalating attack against environmentalists is the
> > > > fact that almost all of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forests where the two fires are burning has been intensively
> > > > logged. Almost no area along the relatively flat and
> > > > easily accessible Mogollon Rim has been spared from
> > > > logging.
> > > >
> > > > For more information,
> > > >
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > > >
> > > > (end)
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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57319 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:33pm
Subject: RE: [Fwd: USFS refuses help on forest fires]
Judith Raya....who are you?
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Judith Raya [mailto:jraya@a...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 3:35 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] [Fwd: USFS refuses help on forest fires]
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: USFS refuses help on forest fires
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:48:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Salars <d_salars@y...>
To: Glynn Burkhardt <gly734@e...>
Federal Government Declines Private Assistance --
Again
(DENVER CO) Thursday, June 13, was not an ordinary day
for Ron Largent.
The Hayman blaze, on its way to becoming the largest
wildfire in the
history of Colorado, was burning out of control at
Lake George, just 25
miles north of Ron's home in Cripple Creek. The U.S.
Forest Service
hadn't been able to contain it. Today Ron was going to
fight the fire.
Ron Largent is the Operations Manager for Anglo Gold
Mining in Cripple
Creek, Colorado. Concerned about the fire's progress,
his company had
volunteered men and equipment to help cut a firebreak.
The Pueblo office
of the US Forest Service had indicated it could use
three pieces of
earthmoving machinery: two Caterpillar D10 bulldozers,
and one D8. The
600-horsepower D10 has an 18' blade and is almost
seven feet tall. It
can uproot large trees without even breathing hard.
Anglo Gold had already arranged with Ames Construction
of Denver to move
the bulldozers to the base camp at Lake George.
Special trailers for
moving them had been driven to Colorado -- one from
Utah, the other from
Kansas. Anglo Gold and Ames Construction were
splitting the $5,000 cost
of transporting the dozers to Lake George.
The dozers pulled into Lake George on Thursday
afternoon, accompanied by
a bevy of heavy equipment operators from the mine who
were ready to run
the equipment 24 hours a day and cut a firebreak from
Lake George to
Divide, then over to Woodland Park. The men figured
they could cut a 35'
wide firebreak for 20 miles through the forest in
about a week. And they
were offering to do this at no cost to the government.
They just wanted
to help.
Incredibly, the U.S. Forest Service turned them down.
Kim Martin, the
Incident Commander for the Forest Service, told Ron
"The equipment is
too heavy. It will tear up the land."
Ron's a big-hearted guy. He still wanted to help. He
expanded Anglo
Gold's offer of assistance. Not only would they cut a
20-mile firebreak
to help contain the fire at no charge to the Forest
Service -- Anglo
Gold would also commit to replant trees in the
affected area once the
fire was out. But Martin was having none of it.
On Friday, June 14, Ron Largent and his crew returned
to Cripple Creek.
A week later, they're still seething. The fire remains
uncontrolled on
its southeastern flank. And the Forest Service is
finally calling in
bulldozers. Little ones, from the Army, in Fort
Carson. Almost fifty
miles away.
After recounting this story, Mr. Kent McNaughton, a
resident of
Crystola, said, "I'm a homeowner in the area
threatened by this fire.
The Forest Service calls it 'a monster.' I'm incensed
that the Forest
Service has decided to fight the fire with one hand
tied behind their
back. They're fighting a bear with a pea shooter. They
needed a rifle;
and when it was offered, they declined it."
When asked for his reaction, Rick Stanley, the
Libertarian candidate for
U.S. Senate, was characteristically blunt. "Two years
ago, when the fire
started at Mesa Verde National Park, local volunteers
showed up with
bulldozers and water trucks.* They could have put the
fire out in a
matter of hours. But the National Park Service was
unwilling to accept
private assistance. 24,000 acres of beautiful forest
land was
incinerated before that fire burned itself out."
"Apparently the federal government doesn't want to let
American citizens
defend our nation against the threat of wildfire,"
Stanley continued.
"At the Hayman fire, Kim Martin was unwilling to
accept the destruction
of 90 acres** of forest by bulldozers. Apparently it
makes more sense to
let 130,000 acres of forest land burn to the ground,
and to force
thousands of innocent people to flee their homes, than
to let hard
working Americans take a hand in defending their
property from natural
disaster. Not!
"This unconstitutional government is not only denying
our liberty -- it
is also destroying our property. The federal
government has no lawful
authority to prevent civilian volunteers from
assisting in this nation's
defense. And yet they do it again, and again, and
again.
"How long will America suffer under this
unconstitutional government?
When will the citizenry decide that enough is enough?"
##30##
* See articles by Janelle Holden in the Cortez
Journal, July 29, 2000.
** A firebreak 35' wide and 20 miles long is 3.6
million sq. ft., or
roughly 90 acres.
Kent McNaughton (719-686-0676) provided most of the
facts in this story.
He interviewed Ron Largent (719-689-4042) and Ames
Construction
(719-689-5531) to learn the details.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
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57320 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:55pm
Subject: RE: A couple of Jeep questions
James,
Having the top mounts strip out is a common thing on TJs. To replace them
after they have stripped out, just put a standard screwdriver in the groove
(notch) that the screw threads through and force the U part open at the top
of the U as you turn the torx screw out... it should back right out. If
not, just apply more force and you will split the plastic U and then you can
pitch it out and install your aluminum replacements.
As far as the A/C goes, I have some gauges that we can hook up and measure
both the high and low side pressures to see if anything is happening out of
the ordinary. Have you recently put any freon in your system?
Kind Regards,
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Towle [mailto:James.Towle@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 5:26 PM
> To: AZ_VJC
> Subject: [az_vjc] A couple of Jeep questions
>
>
> Imagine that...
>
> First question, it appears as though the heil coil in my soft
> top ends, that
> hold the retaining torx screws, in are spinning in the
> plastic ends. I have
> ordered the billet aluminum replacements, so I can take my
> top off for our
> nice cool whether. My question is, has anyone every had this
> happen? What is
> the best to remove the screws now, they just spin in place? I
> know that I
> can figure out a way to get them out, I just want to know the
> easiest way.
>
> Second, the AC in the TJ had started blowing real, real cold,
> no big deal
> right. Well now it is shutting off intermittently. The air
> coming out of the
> vents is extremely cold when it works, it just doesn't work
> constantly. I am
> thinking the head pressure is getting to high and shutting
> the system down.
> Not only does the fan stop, but the compressor shuts off. I
> hope we have an
> vehicle AC guy around. I have an extended warranty I have
> never used, maybe
> it's time to use it?
>
> TIA
>
> --James
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57321 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:57pm
Subject: RE: Greens Screaming Foul
Stu,
Fred is most likely an engineer... engineers have no need for paragraphs
since very long sentences work just fine.
<grin>
Joe West
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stu Olson [mailto:solson8@q...]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 7:17 PM
> To: 'FredTJ'; 'Roger Tomas'
> Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
>
>
> Fred, have you ever considered using paragraphs when your write?
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@c...]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 2:28 PM
> To: Roger Tomas; Judith Raya
> Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
>
> But the only areas that need "management" is the forest-urban
> boundaries. No
> other parts of the forest need management. I taped an
> interesting thing
> last
> night ( on the news ). One of the FS people were saying how the public
> icon,
> Smokey the Bear, you know "only you can prevent forest fires" has
> actually
> contributed to the problem, by instilling in people the
> thought that all
> forest fires are bad.
> They are NOT.... The forest needs fire. The only thing that is bad, or
> has
> the potential to be bad, is fire on the forest-urban boundaries where
> property and/or life is risked. This problem needs to be addressed,
> certainly, and I'm sure that it will now. Thinning is require on the
> boundaries, and I'm sure that soon, we'll see that happen. Logging
> wilderness does not need to happen.
> The primary reason that the forest are in the shape that they
> are today
> (overgrown, too much fuel, etc), is a near century old policy
> of putting
> out
> every little fire that starts.
> If you look back at the Yellowstone fire, and how, "awful" everyone
> thought
> it was. Well the Park is now healther (by virtually everyones vision)
> than
> it's probably ever been in remembered history. The Park was
> really fire
> starved. The FS is learning, and we are learning the hard way.
> Why do you think that fire is bad ??
> Regarding thinning. Logging, IMHO, is not the answer. The parts that
> need
> thinning, again, on the forest-urban boudaries, are the trees that are
> way
> over grown and way too thick. These are the smaller trees, not the
> larger
> trees. The FS person last night, said the same thing, which
> surprised me
> somewhat, as the timber industry is one of the main sources of income
> for
> the FS and the timber industry is the one that wants into the deeper
> wilderness areas and they want the big trees. So, logging won't remove
> the
> fuel (which is the small trees, thick underbrush, etc). Logging will
> simply
> remove the larger trees. It's all about money, and really
> nothing else.
> The
> logging companies want me (through my taxes) to pay for the
> roads (that
> the
> FS would build) so they can get to my (the National Forest
> belongs to us
> all, right) forest, so that they can cut down my trees and make money
> for
> themselves, not paying me a penny in return. To further all
> insult, much
> of
> the timber would be sold overseas (Japan is on of the primary
> consumers
> of
> American raw timber) and therefore the resource, or much of
> it, doesn't
> even
> stay here.
> The fires doesn't hurt the forest, even the really, really, bad ones,
> the
> crown fires where old trees are killed, like the current fire. The
> forest
> will recover and it will be healther because of it. The ideal
> thing is
> not
> to have crown fires, as then there is nothing for the forest
> to recover
> from. Regular burning doesn't hurt the trees at all, and it keeps
> everything
> cleaned out. Crown fires do kill mature trees (as does
> logging), and in
> those cases the forest does have to recover and that does
> take time. But
> recover it will. Again, simply look a Yellowstone. Now, if we don't
> continue
> to screw up, that forest will remain healthy on it's own, but
> it must be
> allowed to burn when fires happen, except on the forest-urban
> boundaries.
> Go back 150 years ago, or 200 years ago, before there was massive
> logging,
> before every fire was being attacked. The forest were
> exteremely healty.
> We've screwed it up. The FS service says the same thing. The
> forest has
> been
> screwed up only during the last 100 years (almost) of us trying to
> "protect"
> it. Smokey the Bear did more than anyone every thought that
> he would ;)
>
>
> Best,
> Fred
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...>
> To: "Judith Raya" <jraya@a...>
> Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
>
>
> > All these discussions center around treatment of the wildland-urban
> > interface. They say nothing about the rest of the forest where the
> > environmentalists continually push for more wilderness and roadless
> > designations.
> >
> > Speak out both sides of their mouths, the environmentalists do.
> (yoda)
> >
> > Someone tell me - am I off base here or am I seeing through their
> > smoke screen?
> >
> > -Roger
> >
> > Judith Raya wrote:
> > >
> > > Good day from the PCCFMU,
> > > > The Center for Biological Diversity is wildly flailing about
> blaming
> > > > everyone including the state of Arizona for the fires
> in the White
> > > > Mountains. These people are so fanatical in their
> "love" of mother
> > > earth
> > > > that they will see her burn rather than admit to their mistakes
> and
> > > > allow responsible land and forest management to take
> place. It is
> my
> > > > belief that most of the leaders in the green groups are mentally
> ill
> > > and
> > > > in serious need of deprograming and therapy. Their "love" of the
> earth
> > >
> > > > is not love but an unhealthy obsession. What they essentially do
> is
> > > > stalk their earth love and anyone who may have
> divergent interests
> or
> > > > uses for it other than their own. Burning, terrorizing,
> intimidation,
> > > > obstruction and litigation are their means to
> "protect" her ( in
> > > their
> > > > sick minds) from those they state would rape and misuse her.
> > > > It is time to clearly draw the line between good land management
> > > > practices and science, and the druidic, earth worshiping
> fanaticism
> > > that
> > > > is being foisted upon the people of North America by the green
> > > > organizations across the country.
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > > Glynn Burkhardt
> > > >
> > > > Subject:
> > > > Arizona Fire Update
> > > > Date:
> > > > 24 Jun 2002 23:39:09 -0000
> > > > From:
> > > > "Center for Biological Diveristy"
> > > > <center@b...>
> > > > Reply-To:
> > > > notice-reply-i8gkwb4r78xmbm@a...
> > > > To:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > NEWS ADVISORY: Monday, June 24
> > > > CONTACT: Brian Segee, (520) 623-5252 x308
> > > > More Information:
> > > >
> http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > > >
> > > > STATE PRESSURED FOREST SERVICE TO HALT FUELS REDUCTION
> > > > PROJECT IN RODEO BURN AREA
> > > >
> > > > GOVERNOR HULL SCAPEGOATS ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOR LARGEST
> > > > FIRES IN ARIZONA HISTORY
> > > >
> > > > As Arizona faces its largest wildfire in history with
> > > > hundreds of homes destroyed and thousands of people
> > > > evacuated from their homes, Governor Jane Hull has
> > > > seized upon the tragedy to advance her own anti-environmental
> > > > agenda: On Sunday, June 23rd, Hull appeared on television
> > > > to blame environmentalists for the fire.
> > > >
> > > > The Governor predictably failed to explain how environmentalists
> > > > were to blame for the fires. Additionally, the Governor
> > > > failed to mention 1) that a prescribed fire set by
> > > > the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuel loads within
> > > > the burned area was stopped by state intervention,
> > > > 2) the vast majority of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forests have been previously logged by the U.S. Forest
> > > > Service, 3) a recent report by the Government Accounting
> > > > Office (GAO) found that only 1% of Forest Service fuel
> > > > reduction projects were challenged with appeals or
> > > > lawsuits, and 4) a second recent report by the GAO
> > > > found that the Forest Service has misdirected funds
> > > > from its massive fuels reduction budget away from the
> > > > protection of rural communities threatened by fire.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Los Angeles Times recently reported that a prescribed
> > > > fire set by the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuels
> > > > in what is now the Rodeo-Chediski fire was stopped
> > > > by unwarranted intervention by state agencies:
> > > >
> > > > "When controlled burns were set recently in the Apache
> > > > Sitgreaves National Forest, where the Rodeo fire now
> > > > rages, nearby residents complained to state air quality
> > > > officials about the smoke. The state pressured Forest
> > > > Service officials to extinguish the blazes prematurely,
> > > > Anderson (planner on the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forest) said. "Other plans to start controlled burns
> > > > have been blocked by litigation, he said." (17 Blazes
> > > > Charring the West, Los Angeles Times, 6-23-02).
> > > >
> > > > The Governor's scapegoating of environmentalists is
> > > > fundamentally inaccurate. The Center for Biological
> > > > Diversity (CBD), Sierra Club, Southwest Forest Alliance
> > > > and other environmental organizations have long supported
> > > > the use of both prescribed fire and thinning of small-diameter
> > > > trees as the most effective methods to reduce fire
> > > > danger within Southwestern ponderosa pine forests.
> > > > Ironically, CBD sits on Governor's Forest Health/Fire
> > > > Plan Advisory Committee, a group appointed by Jane
> > > > Hull to advise governor on community protection and
> > > > forest restoration issues and to make recommendations
> > > > on where to spend National Fire Plan funds. We also
> > > > are on Senator Bingaman's (D-NM) Community Forest Restoration
> > > > Program Advisory Committee, which is charged with distribution
> > > > of $ 5 million annually to rural communities for forest
> > > > restoration and community protection.
> > > >
> > > > "The Governor is opportunistically and cynically using
> > > > this on-going tragedy to further an anti-environmental
> > > > agenda," stated Brian Segee with CBD. "Not only do
> > > > we strongly support community protection efforts such
> > > > as wildland-urban interface treatments, prescribed
> > > > burning and small-diameter thinning, we are deeply
> > > > involved in on-going collaborative and governmental
> > > > efforts to make such goals a reality."
> > > >
> > > > Independent studies conducted by the federal government
> > > > also directly contradict charges that environmental
> > > > organizations are preventing needed fuels reduction
> > > > projects from being completed. As stated in an August
> > > > 2001 report by the Government Accounting Office (GAO),
> > > > an independent investigative branch of Congress:
> > > >
> > > > "In summary, as of July 18, 2001, the Forest Service
> > > > has completed the necessary environmental analysis
> > > > and had decided to implement 1,671 hazardous fuel reduction
> > > > projects in fiscal year 2001. Of these projects, 20
> > > > (about 1 percent) had been appealed and none had been
> > > > litigated. Appellants included environmental groups,
> > > > recreation groups, private industry interests, and
> > > > individuals."
> > > >
> > > > Under the National Fire Plan, passed in the wake of
> > > > 2000's intense fire season, the Forest Service and
> > > > other federal agencies were given over $2 billion
> > > > to thin brush and small-diameter trees, with an emphasis
> > > > on community protection. GAO research has concluded
> > > > that the Forest Service could not account for how this
> > > > money was being spent. In a January 2002 GAO report
> > > > entitled "Severe Wildland Fires: Leadership and Accountability
> > > > Needed to Reduce Risks to Communities and Resources,"
> > > > it is stated:
> > > >
> > > > "Over a year after the Congress substantially increased
> > > > funds to reduce hazardous fuels, the federal effort
> > > > still lacks clearly defined and effective leadership
> > > > . . .it is not possible to determine if the $796 million
> > > > appropriated for hazardous fuels reduction in fiscal
> > > > years 2001 and 2002 is targeted to the communities
> > > > and other areas at highest risk of severe wildland
> > > > fires."
> > > >
> > > > Finally, forgotten in the Governor's continued and
> > > > escalating attack against environmentalists is the
> > > > fact that almost all of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forests where the two fires are burning has been intensively
> > > > logged. Almost no area along the relatively flat and
> > > > easily accessible Mogollon Rim has been spared from
> > > > logging.
> > > >
> > > > For more information,
> > > >
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > >
> > > (end)
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57322 From: RICK BEER <RIKNAZ@M...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:06pm
Subject: is there any member displaced by the fire
I was wondering do we have any members affected by the fire
THANKS RICK BEER
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57323 From: Hogan Whittall <hogan@e...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:12pm
Subject: Re: is there any member displaced by the fire
So far the only people affected, that I know of, are my wife's parents. Their house is on the west side of Show Low near Fool Hollow Lake. They've been staying with us when they're not working down in Bisbee (He's a civil engineer working w/ ADOT, mostly retired.)
No worries here, though. We're all prepared and they're all outfitted with what they need, waiting is a killer. :)
Also, I don't know if anyone else read about this, but a woman was arrested today in Pinetop-Lakeside after starting a fire in a subdivision. Being held on $300,000 bail for arson and endangering 16 lives. What gives?!
--
Hogan Whittall
----- Original Message -----
From: RICK BEER
To: JEEP
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 8:06 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] is there any member displaced by the fire
I was wondering do we have any members affected by the fire
THANKS RICK BEER
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57324 From: jetowle2000 <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:18pm
Subject: Re: A couple of Jeep questions
I have done anything to the AC. I can't even remember the exact day
it started, because the first time it just turned off once and has
been slowly going down hill since then.
I would think the pressure is getting to low to operate, this would
make more sense. The thing that confuses me is that the air is so
cold.
--James
> As far as the A/C goes, I have some gauges that we can hook up and
measure
> both the high and low side pressures to see if anything is
happening out of
> the ordinary. Have you recently put any freon in your system?
>
57325 From: jetowle2000 <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:21pm
Subject: Re: is there any member displaced by the fire
I am thinking Bill Witt& son(s) are the only active members. He
hasn't checked in yet.
--- In az_vjc@y..., "RICK BEER" <RIKNAZ@M...> wrote:
> I was wondering do we have any members affected by the fire
>
> THANKS RICK BEERGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer
download : http://explorer.msn.com
57326 From: iamskybum <scott@v...>
Date: Tue Jun 2