Yahoo Messages: 57277-57301

[blooddrive]

57277-57301

57277 From: The Acuna Family <mkacuna@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:23pm
Subject: re: sent to radio stations


Here is a copy of an e-mail I sent to all the radio stations that I could find.

I was wondering if you could mention to your listeners that the AZVJC (Arizona Virtual Jeep Club) club will be doing a run up to Payson this Saturday? We will be taking a multitude of supplies as requested by the Salvation Army. Anyone interested on going or donating stuff to take can find us at www.azvjc.org.

Thanks for your time,
Mike Acuna Jr



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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57278 From: Jay Eller <jay@t...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:27pm
Subject: CJ7 Stock Pitman Arm Needed


I'm trying to hunt down a stock CJ7 pitman arm. If it makes any difference,
mine is an '83 with power steering. I'm not sure if the manual steering
versions are any different. Surely someone has one hangin' around as a paper
weight they would like to get rid of.

TIA.....
--
----------------------------
Jay Eller (http://community.webshots.com/user/four_by_nut)
http://www.toyboxoffroad.com


57279 From: Roger Tomas <tomasr@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:26pm
Subject: Re: possible fire run decal?????


Better check the spelling - I thought it was "Chediski" with two i's.

-Roger

itsajeepthing28@a... wrote:
>
> I think its a great idea.... However, really believe that it should be
> Rodeo-Chedeski....
>
> just my 2 cents...
>
> Gary Oglesby
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


57280 From: pebble007 <jawooten@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:45pm
Subject: Re: Greens Screaming Foul


Fred,
I can't agree more (as stated in my previous posts)but and it is
a big but at that8) logging is a neccessary thing - how was your
house built if not with some lumber. As for going overseas - while
the lumber may go the jobs it creates are here as well as most of the
money which is then put back into the economy you and I rely on to
make our living (unless your a monk who lives in cave and only eats
what he grows LOL!
So what is the solution - I don't begin to even think I know, but I
can't believe all of the greenies retoric and as with any goverment
bueracracy (sp) there is definite problems with the FS. It probably
lies somewhere in the middle.
My 100-.98 worth.
Josh Wooten
99 TJ
--- In az_vjc@y..., "FredTJ" <fredtj@c...> wrote:
> But the only areas that need "management" is the forest-urban
boundaries. No
> other parts of the forest need management. I taped an interesting
thing last
> night ( on the news ). One of the FS people were saying how the
public icon,
> Smokey the Bear, you know "only you can prevent forest fires" has
actually
> contributed to the problem, by instilling in people the thought
that all
> forest fires are bad.
> They are NOT.... The forest needs fire. The only thing that is bad,
or has
> the potential to be bad, is fire on the forest-urban boundaries
where
> property and/or life is risked. This problem needs to be addressed,
> certainly, and I'm sure that it will now. Thinning is require on the
> boundaries, and I'm sure that soon, we'll see that happen. Logging
> wilderness does not need to happen.
> The primary reason that the forest are in the shape that they are
today
> (overgrown, too much fuel, etc), is a near century old policy of
putting out
> every little fire that starts.
> If you look back at the Yellowstone fire, and how, "awful" everyone
thought
> it was. Well the Park is now healther (by virtually everyones
vision) than
> it's probably ever been in remembered history. The Park was really
fire
> starved. The FS is learning, and we are learning the hard way.
> Why do you think that fire is bad ??
> Regarding thinning. Logging, IMHO, is not the answer. The parts
that need
> thinning, again, on the forest-urban boudaries, are the trees that
are way
> over grown and way too thick. These are the smaller trees, not the
larger
> trees. The FS person last night, said the same thing, which
surprised me
> somewhat, as the timber industry is one of the main sources of
income for
> the FS and the timber industry is the one that wants into the deeper
> wilderness areas and they want the big trees. So, logging won't
remove the
> fuel (which is the small trees, thick underbrush, etc). Logging
will simply
> remove the larger trees. It's all about money, and really nothing
else. The
> logging companies want me (through my taxes) to pay for the roads
(that the
> FS would build) so they can get to my (the National Forest belongs
to us
> all, right) forest, so that they can cut down my trees and make
money for
> themselves, not paying me a penny in return. To further all insult,
much of
> the timber would be sold overseas (Japan is on of the primary
consumers of
> American raw timber) and therefore the resource, or much of it,
doesn't even
> stay here.
> The fires doesn't hurt the forest, even the really, really, bad
ones, the
> crown fires where old trees are killed, like the current fire. The
forest
> will recover and it will be healther because of it. The ideal
thing is not
> to have crown fires, as then there is nothing for the forest to
recover
> from. Regular burning doesn't hurt the trees at all, and it keeps
everything
> cleaned out. Crown fires do kill mature trees (as does logging),
and in
> those cases the forest does have to recover and that does take
time. But
> recover it will. Again, simply look a Yellowstone. Now, if we don't
continue
> to screw up, that forest will remain healthy on it's own, but it
must be
> allowed to burn when fires happen, except on the forest-urban
boundaries.
> Go back 150 years ago, or 200 years ago, before there was massive
logging,
> before every fire was being attacked. The forest were exteremely
healty.
> We've screwed it up. The FS service says the same thing. The forest
has been
> screwed up only during the last 100 years (almost) of us trying
to "protect"
> it. Smokey the Bear did more than anyone every thought that he
would ;)
>
>
> Best,
> Fred
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...>
> To: "Judith Raya" <jraya@a...>
> Cc: <az_vjc@y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
>
>
> > All these discussions center around treatment of the wildland-
urban
> > interface. They say nothing about the rest of the forest where
the
> > environmentalists continually push for more wilderness and
roadless
> > designations.
> >
> > Speak out both sides of their mouths, the environmentalists do.
(yoda)
> >
> > Someone tell me - am I off base here or am I seeing through their
> > smoke screen?
> >
> > -Roger
> >
> > Judith Raya wrote:
> > >
> > > Good day from the PCCFMU,
> > > > The Center for Biological Diversity is wildly flailing about
blaming
> > > > everyone including the state of Arizona for the fires in the
White
> > > > Mountains. These people are so fanatical in their "love" of
mother
> > > earth
> > > > that they will see her burn rather than admit to their
mistakes and
> > > > allow responsible land and forest management to take place.
It is my
> > > > belief that most of the leaders in the green groups are
mentally ill
> > > and
> > > > in serious need of deprograming and therapy. Their "love" of
the earth
> > >
> > > > is not love but an unhealthy obsession. What they essentially
do is
> > > > stalk their earth love and anyone who may have divergent
interests or
> > > > uses for it other than their own. Burning, terrorizing,
intimidation,
> > > > obstruction and litigation are their means to "protect" her
( in
> > > their
> > > > sick minds) from those they state would rape and misuse her.
> > > > It is time to clearly draw the line between good land
management
> > > > practices and science, and the druidic, earth worshiping
fanaticism
> > > that
> > > > is being foisted upon the people of North America by the green
> > > > organizations across the country.
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > > Glynn Burkhardt
> > > >
> > > > Subject:
> > > > Arizona Fire Update
> > > > Date:
> > > > 24 Jun 2002 23:39:09 -0000
> > > > From:
> > > > "Center for Biological Diveristy"
> > > > <center@b...>
> > > > Reply-To:
> > > > notice-reply-i8gkwb4r78xmbm@a...
> > > > To:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > NEWS ADVISORY: Monday, June 24
> > > > CONTACT: Brian Segee, (520) 623-5252 x308
> > > > More Information:
> > > >
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > > >
> > > > STATE PRESSURED FOREST SERVICE TO HALT FUELS REDUCTION
> > > > PROJECT IN RODEO BURN AREA
> > > >
> > > > GOVERNOR HULL SCAPEGOATS ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOR LARGEST
> > > > FIRES IN ARIZONA HISTORY
> > > >
> > > > As Arizona faces its largest wildfire in history with
> > > > hundreds of homes destroyed and thousands of people
> > > > evacuated from their homes, Governor Jane Hull has
> > > > seized upon the tragedy to advance her own anti-environmental
> > > > agenda: On Sunday, June 23rd, Hull appeared on television
> > > > to blame environmentalists for the fire.
> > > >
> > > > The Governor predictably failed to explain how
environmentalists
> > > > were to blame for the fires. Additionally, the Governor
> > > > failed to mention 1) that a prescribed fire set by
> > > > the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuel loads within
> > > > the burned area was stopped by state intervention,
> > > > 2) the vast majority of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forests have been previously logged by the U.S. Forest
> > > > Service, 3) a recent report by the Government Accounting
> > > > Office (GAO) found that only 1% of Forest Service fuel
> > > > reduction projects were challenged with appeals or
> > > > lawsuits, and 4) a second recent report by the GAO
> > > > found that the Forest Service has misdirected funds
> > > > from its massive fuels reduction budget away from the
> > > > protection of rural communities threatened by fire.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Los Angeles Times recently reported that a prescribed
> > > > fire set by the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuels
> > > > in what is now the Rodeo-Chediski fire was stopped
> > > > by unwarranted intervention by state agencies:
> > > >
> > > > "When controlled burns were set recently in the Apache
> > > > Sitgreaves National Forest, where the Rodeo fire now
> > > > rages, nearby residents complained to state air quality
> > > > officials about the smoke. The state pressured Forest
> > > > Service officials to extinguish the blazes prematurely,
> > > > Anderson (planner on the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forest) said. "Other plans to start controlled burns
> > > > have been blocked by litigation, he said." (17 Blazes
> > > > Charring the West, Los Angeles Times, 6-23-02).
> > > >
> > > > The Governor's scapegoating of environmentalists is
> > > > fundamentally inaccurate. The Center for Biological
> > > > Diversity (CBD), Sierra Club, Southwest Forest Alliance
> > > > and other environmental organizations have long supported
> > > > the use of both prescribed fire and thinning of small-diameter
> > > > trees as the most effective methods to reduce fire
> > > > danger within Southwestern ponderosa pine forests.
> > > > Ironically, CBD sits on Governor's Forest Health/Fire
> > > > Plan Advisory Committee, a group appointed by Jane
> > > > Hull to advise governor on community protection and
> > > > forest restoration issues and to make recommendations
> > > > on where to spend National Fire Plan funds. We also
> > > > are on Senator Bingaman's (D-NM) Community Forest Restoration
> > > > Program Advisory Committee, which is charged with distribution
> > > > of $ 5 million annually to rural communities for forest
> > > > restoration and community protection.
> > > >
> > > > "The Governor is opportunistically and cynically using
> > > > this on-going tragedy to further an anti-environmental
> > > > agenda," stated Brian Segee with CBD. "Not only do
> > > > we strongly support community protection efforts such
> > > > as wildland-urban interface treatments, prescribed
> > > > burning and small-diameter thinning, we are deeply
> > > > involved in on-going collaborative and governmental
> > > > efforts to make such goals a reality."
> > > >
> > > > Independent studies conducted by the federal government
> > > > also directly contradict charges that environmental
> > > > organizations are preventing needed fuels reduction
> > > > projects from being completed. As stated in an August
> > > > 2001 report by the Government Accounting Office (GAO),
> > > > an independent investigative branch of Congress:
> > > >
> > > > "In summary, as of July 18, 2001, the Forest Service
> > > > has completed the necessary environmental analysis
> > > > and had decided to implement 1,671 hazardous fuel reduction
> > > > projects in fiscal year 2001. Of these projects, 20
> > > > (about 1 percent) had been appealed and none had been
> > > > litigated. Appellants included environmental groups,
> > > > recreation groups, private industry interests, and
> > > > individuals."
> > > >
> > > > Under the National Fire Plan, passed in the wake of
> > > > 2000's intense fire season, the Forest Service and
> > > > other federal agencies were given over $2 billion
> > > > to thin brush and small-diameter trees, with an emphasis
> > > > on community protection. GAO research has concluded
> > > > that the Forest Service could not account for how this
> > > > money was being spent. In a January 2002 GAO report
> > > > entitled "Severe Wildland Fires: Leadership and Accountability
> > > > Needed to Reduce Risks to Communities and Resources,"
> > > > it is stated:
> > > >
> > > > "Over a year after the Congress substantially increased
> > > > funds to reduce hazardous fuels, the federal effort
> > > > still lacks clearly defined and effective leadership
> > > > . . .it is not possible to determine if the $796 million
> > > > appropriated for hazardous fuels reduction in fiscal
> > > > years 2001 and 2002 is targeted to the communities
> > > > and other areas at highest risk of severe wildland
> > > > fires."
> > > >
> > > > Finally, forgotten in the Governor's continued and
> > > > escalating attack against environmentalists is the
> > > > fact that almost all of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forests where the two fires are burning has been intensively
> > > > logged. Almost no area along the relatively flat and
> > > > easily accessible Mogollon Rim has been spared from
> > > > logging.
> > > >
> > > > For more information,
> > > >
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > > >
> > > > (end)
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >


57281 From: pebble007 <jawooten@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:48pm
Subject: Re: Payson relief run this weekend.


Hello all,
My company has allowed me to put a box in the lobby for
donations for this weekend. I may get more than I can handle and may
need a little help gettting it all. Is there anybody in the 40th
street and broadway area that can help pick some of this stuff up if
I need it.
TIA
Josh Wooten
99 TJ
--- In az_vjc@y..., "David Withers" <dwithers@a...> wrote:
> Very well put
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roger Tomas [mailto:tomasr@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 12:56 PM
> To: g_rob_williams
> Cc: az_vjc@y...; msa12171
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Payson relief run this weekend.
>
>
> Rob,
>
> I appreciate what you have done. You got this whole thing going and
> that in itself is a lot.
>
> ----------------
>
> Let's talk about some of the logistics. I've heard people offer up
> trailers and box trucks. Are we really going to be able to collect
that
> much stuff in such little time? We don't even seem to have an
accurate
> list of needed items (which seems to differ depending on which
> organization you talk to).
>
> Due to the short time frame we have, we need to keep things as
simple as
> possible. I'm thinking everyone who wants to participate should
attempt
> to fill their own Jeep (or other vehicle) with needed items for an
> organization of their choosing. But we need to have one person
(Mike?)
> contact each organization and post a definitive list of needed
items.
> I'm thinking the organizations to be contacted should be the Red
Cross,
> the Salvation Army and the Humane Society. Anything else? The
forest
> service? Once we have the definitive lists, people can choose which
> organization they want to donate to and then seek donations.
>
> This approach helps ensure we provide items that are needed while
> allowing club members to work as independently as possible. We
don't
> want to get bogged down in coordinating things and lots of
unnecessary
> communication. Other than some up front work to identify the
> organization(s) and their needed items, the only other coordinated
> activity I see happening is the jeep caravan to Payson. I think we
> should meet along the Beeline Highway (aka 87) near Fountain Hills
> though I don't know how well that works for folks coming up from
Tucson.
>
> -Roger
>
>
> g_rob_williams wrote:
> >
> > I dont have time to all the legwork for this. I like everyone
else
> > work full time during the day, and I have school mon-thurs
evenings. I
>
> > have already been chewed out once for as much time as I'm
spending on
> > these e-mails trying to clarify what is going on, and getting
> > chastized by quite a few of you out there for even trying to do
this!!
>
> > I just tried to suggest something I thought would be easy to do,
and
> > to help out these people. Someone suggested I post it to see if
there
> > is an interest, and now I am the spearhead for this. I will be
more
> > than willing to help, but I can't organize it. I talked to my
mother
> > last night and we will be at the Payson relief site to volunteer
to
> > help with whatever they need. I still want to do the run, and
have
> > plenty of donations, but again, I can not organize
> > this! -Rob
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


57282 From: Hackle <hackle@q...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 3:15pm
Subject: RE: Greens Screaming Foul


Who is FredTJ he does not sign his messages and he spends his time
explaining things about how great the greenie's are? Has anyone ever met him
on a run does he have a TJ?
He avoids explaining how stopping roads and adding wilderness area stops
fires. (this is a greenie tool correct)
If someone knows him and I am off base let me know. But for someone that
has not been involved with many e-mails in the past he seems to be trying to
make up for it on this subject. Jim Florence

I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member. "Groucho
Marx"
Member of the original dirty half dozen.
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/index.htm/
http://www.rockrats.org/


-----Original Message-----
From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@c...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 2:28 PM
To: Roger Tomas; Judith Raya
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul


But the only areas that need "management" is the forest-urban boundaries. No
other parts of the forest need management. I taped an interesting thing last
night ( on the news ). One of the FS people were saying how the public icon,
Smokey the Bear, you know "only you can prevent forest fires" has actually
contributed to the problem, by instilling in people the thought that all
forest fires are bad.
They are NOT.... The forest needs fire. The only thing that is bad, or has
the potential to be bad, is fire on the forest-urban boundaries where
property and/or life is risked. This problem needs to be addressed,
certainly, and I'm sure that it will now. Thinning is require on the
boundaries, and I'm sure that soon, we'll see that happen. Logging
wilderness does not need to happen.
The primary reason that the forest are in the shape that they are today
(overgrown, too much fuel, etc), is a near century old policy of putting out
every little fire that starts.
If you look back at the Yellowstone fire, and how, "awful" everyone thought
it was. Well the Park is now healther (by virtually everyones vision) than
it's probably ever been in remembered history. The Park was really fire
starved. The FS is learning, and we are learning the hard way.
Why do you think that fire is bad ??
Regarding thinning. Logging, IMHO, is not the answer. The parts that need
thinning, again, on the forest-urban boudaries, are the trees that are way
over grown and way too thick. These are the smaller trees, not the larger
trees. The FS person last night, said the same thing, which surprised me
somewhat, as the timber industry is one of the main sources of income for
the FS and the timber industry is the one that wants into the deeper
wilderness areas and they want the big trees. So, logging won't remove the
fuel (which is the small trees, thick underbrush, etc). Logging will simply
remove the larger trees. It's all about money, and really nothing else. The
logging companies want me (through my taxes) to pay for the roads (that the
FS would build) so they can get to my (the National Forest belongs to us
all, right) forest, so that they can cut down my trees and make money for
themselves, not paying me a penny in return. To further all insult, much of
the timber would be sold overseas (Japan is on of the primary consumers of
American raw timber) and therefore the resource, or much of it, doesn't even
stay here.
The fires doesn't hurt the forest, even the really, really, bad ones, the
crown fires where old trees are killed, like the current fire. The forest
will recover and it will be healther because of it. The ideal thing is not
to have crown fires, as then there is nothing for the forest to recover
from. Regular burning doesn't hurt the trees at all, and it keeps everything
cleaned out. Crown fires do kill mature trees (as does logging), and in
those cases the forest does have to recover and that does take time. But
recover it will. Again, simply look a Yellowstone. Now, if we don't continue
to screw up, that forest will remain healthy on it's own, but it must be
allowed to burn when fires happen, except on the forest-urban boundaries.
Go back 150 years ago, or 200 years ago, before there was massive logging,
before every fire was being attacked. The forest were exteremely healty.
We've screwed it up. The FS service says the same thing. The forest has been
screwed up only during the last 100 years (almost) of us trying to "protect"
it. Smokey the Bear did more than anyone every thought that he would ;)


Best,
Fred

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...>
To: "Judith Raya" <jraya@a...>
Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul


> All these discussions center around treatment of the wildland-urban
> interface. They say nothing about the rest of the forest where the
> environmentalists continually push for more wilderness and roadless
> designations.
>
> Speak out both sides of their mouths, the environmentalists do. (yoda)
>
> Someone tell me - am I off base here or am I seeing through their
> smoke screen?
>
> -Roger
>
> Judith Raya wrote:
> >
> > Good day from the PCCFMU,
> > > The Center for Biological Diversity is wildly flailing about blaming
> > > everyone including the state of Arizona for the fires in the White
> > > Mountains. These people are so fanatical in their "love" of mother
> > earth
> > > that they will see her burn rather than admit to their mistakes and
> > > allow responsible land and forest management to take place. It is my
> > > belief that most of the leaders in the green groups are mentally ill
> > and
> > > in serious need of deprograming and therapy. Their "love" of the earth
> >
> > > is not love but an unhealthy obsession. What they essentially do is
> > > stalk their earth love and anyone who may have divergent interests or
> > > uses for it other than their own. Burning, terrorizing, intimidation,
> > > obstruction and litigation are their means to "protect" her ( in
> > their
> > > sick minds) from those they state would rape and misuse her.
> > > It is time to clearly draw the line between good land management
> > > practices and science, and the druidic, earth worshiping fanaticism
> > that
> > > is being foisted upon the people of North America by the green
> > > organizations across the country.
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Glynn Burkhardt
> > >
> > > Subject:
> > > Arizona Fire Update
> > > Date:
> > > 24 Jun 2002 23:39:09 -0000
> > > From:
> > > "Center for Biological Diveristy"
> > > <center@b...>
> > > Reply-To:
> > > notice-reply-i8gkwb4r78xmbm@a...
> > > To:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > NEWS ADVISORY: Monday, June 24
> > > CONTACT: Brian Segee, (520) 623-5252 x308
> > > More Information:
> > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > >
> > > STATE PRESSURED FOREST SERVICE TO HALT FUELS REDUCTION
> > > PROJECT IN RODEO BURN AREA
> > >
> > > GOVERNOR HULL SCAPEGOATS ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOR LARGEST
> > > FIRES IN ARIZONA HISTORY
> > >
> > > As Arizona faces its largest wildfire in history with
> > > hundreds of homes destroyed and thousands of people
> > > evacuated from their homes, Governor Jane Hull has
> > > seized upon the tragedy to advance her own anti-environmental
> > > agenda: On Sunday, June 23rd, Hull appeared on television
> > > to blame environmentalists for the fire.
> > >
> > > The Governor predictably failed to explain how environmentalists
> > > were to blame for the fires. Additionally, the Governor
> > > failed to mention 1) that a prescribed fire set by
> > > the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuel loads within
> > > the burned area was stopped by state intervention,
> > > 2) the vast majority of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > Forests have been previously logged by the U.S. Forest
> > > Service, 3) a recent report by the Government Accounting
> > > Office (GAO) found that only 1% of Forest Service fuel
> > > reduction projects were challenged with appeals or
> > > lawsuits, and 4) a second recent report by the GAO
> > > found that the Forest Service has misdirected funds
> > > from its massive fuels reduction budget away from the
> > > protection of rural communities threatened by fire.
> > >
> > >
> > > The Los Angeles Times recently reported that a prescribed
> > > fire set by the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuels
> > > in what is now the Rodeo-Chediski fire was stopped
> > > by unwarranted intervention by state agencies:
> > >
> > > "When controlled burns were set recently in the Apache
> > > Sitgreaves National Forest, where the Rodeo fire now
> > > rages, nearby residents complained to state air quality
> > > officials about the smoke. The state pressured Forest
> > > Service officials to extinguish the blazes prematurely,
> > > Anderson (planner on the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > Forest) said. "Other plans to start controlled burns
> > > have been blocked by litigation, he said." (17 Blazes
> > > Charring the West, Los Angeles Times, 6-23-02).
> > >
> > > The Governor's scapegoating of environmentalists is
> > > fundamentally inaccurate. The Center for Biological
> > > Diversity (CBD), Sierra Club, Southwest Forest Alliance
> > > and other environmental organizations have long supported
> > > the use of both prescribed fire and thinning of small-diameter
> > > trees as the most effective methods to reduce fire
> > > danger within Southwestern ponderosa pine forests.
> > > Ironically, CBD sits on Governor's Forest Health/Fire
> > > Plan Advisory Committee, a group appointed by Jane
> > > Hull to advise governor on community protection and
> > > forest restoration issues and to make recommendations
> > > on where to spend National Fire Plan funds. We also
> > > are on Senator Bingaman's (D-NM) Community Forest Restoration
> > > Program Advisory Committee, which is charged with distribution
> > > of $ 5 million annually to rural communities for forest
> > > restoration and community protection.
> > >
> > > "The Governor is opportunistically and cynically using
> > > this on-going tragedy to further an anti-environmental
> > > agenda," stated Brian Segee with CBD. "Not only do
> > > we strongly support community protection efforts such
> > > as wildland-urban interface treatments, prescribed
> > > burning and small-diameter thinning, we are deeply
> > > involved in on-going collaborative and governmental
> > > efforts to make such goals a reality."
> > >
> > > Independent studies conducted by the federal government
> > > also directly contradict charges that environmental
> > > organizations are preventing needed fuels reduction
> > > projects from being completed. As stated in an August
> > > 2001 report by the Government Accounting Office (GAO),
> > > an independent investigative branch of Congress:
> > >
> > > "In summary, as of July 18, 2001, the Forest Service
> > > has completed the necessary environmental analysis
> > > and had decided to implement 1,671 hazardous fuel reduction
> > > projects in fiscal year 2001. Of these projects, 20
> > > (about 1 percent) had been appealed and none had been
> > > litigated. Appellants included environmental groups,
> > > recreation groups, private industry interests, and
> > > individuals."
> > >
> > > Under the National Fire Plan, passed in the wake of
> > > 2000's intense fire season, the Forest Service and
> > > other federal agencies were given over $2 billion
> > > to thin brush and small-diameter trees, with an emphasis
> > > on community protection. GAO research has concluded
> > > that the Forest Service could not account for how this
> > > money was being spent. In a January 2002 GAO report
> > > entitled "Severe Wildland Fires: Leadership and Accountability
> > > Needed to Reduce Risks to Communities and Resources,"
> > > it is stated:
> > >
> > > "Over a year after the Congress substantially increased
> > > funds to reduce hazardous fuels, the federal effort
> > > still lacks clearly defined and effective leadership
> > > . . .it is not possible to determine if the $796 million
> > > appropriated for hazardous fuels reduction in fiscal
> > > years 2001 and 2002 is targeted to the communities
> > > and other areas at highest risk of severe wildland
> > > fires."
> > >
> > > Finally, forgotten in the Governor's continued and
> > > escalating attack against environmentalists is the
> > > fact that almost all of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > Forests where the two fires are burning has been intensively
> > > logged. Almost no area along the relatively flat and
> > > easily accessible Mogollon Rim has been spared from
> > > logging.
> > >
> > > For more information,
> > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > >
> > > (end)
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


57283 From: David Withers <dwithers@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 3:23pm
Subject: Payson relief run


last I looked we only had 17 people. most were tentative.
Come on people, the time is now.

David R. W. Withers
Desk: 480.551.4667
Mobile: 480.215.6992




57284 From: ratsxj <ratsxj@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 3:28pm
Subject: Payson run


I am up for it, but I need some details as to:
1:What time and where is the meeting place?
2:Besides money what else do they need? (I saw the post with the
list, but that can't be all they need.)If so I am in for water and
gatorade + a some kids toys.

But I do need some details about what time and the meeting drop od
location.


Scott M.(RATSXJ)


57285 From: Gary MacLaren <gmaclaren@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 3:42pm
Subject: Fw: Cinder Hills CLOSED due to extreme fire danger


-----Original Message-----
From: Joan Beck <fourby@c...>
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:; <Undisclosed-Recipient:;>
Date: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 3:32 PM
Subject: Fw: Cinder Hills CLOSED due to extreme fire danger


----- Original Message -----
From: CINDERHILLSRR@a...

Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 12:32 PM
Subject: Cinder Hills CLOSED due to extreme fire danger


Hi everyone,
I hate to be the sender of bad news. As of June 27, Thursday all of the
forest will be CLOSED including the Cinder Hills. Hopefully we will start
getting rain soon. I will be sure to let everyone know when they reopen.
Please call me if you have any questions@ 928-526-8853.
Hope to see everyone very soon.
Kathy&Larry Cinderhills Rough
Riders


57286 From: g_rob_williams <g_rob_williams@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 3:41pm
Subject: Re: road closures


The road is not closed in to Payson, it is however closed going EAST
out of Payson. -Rob


--- In az_vjc@y..., "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...> wrote:
> I noticed a list of road closures in the paper today (a friend had
a page
> open and I was looking over their shoulder).
>
> Does anyone really know if the caravan can actually get through.
I talked
> to a MCSO possee member and they had road blocks up this weekend
to keep
> people out.
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com


57287 From: Roger Tomas <tomasr@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 3:46pm
Subject: Re: Greens Screaming Foul


I strongly disagree with the first sentence below. Any place in a forest
where lightning might strike or a careless person might start a fire, the
forest needs to be managed. And to assume that naturally occuring fires
will occur frequently enough to keep the forest healthy without destroying
it is a gamble I'd prefer not to take.

In any case, based on the current state of undergrowth in our forests, I
as exploited by the Rodeo and Chediski fires, I believe entire forests need
to be managed - not just the areas near the urban boundary.

IMHO.

-Roger

FredTJ wrote:
>
> But the only areas that need "management" is the forest-urban boundaries. No
> other parts of the forest need management. I taped an interesting thing last
> night ( on the news ). One of the FS people were saying how the public icon,
> Smokey the Bear, you know "only you can prevent forest fires" has actually
> contributed to the problem, by instilling in people the thought that all
> forest fires are bad.
> They are NOT.... The forest needs fire. The only thing that is bad, or has
> the potential to be bad, is fire on the forest-urban boundaries where
> property and/or life is risked. This problem needs to be addressed,
> certainly, and I'm sure that it will now. Thinning is require on the
> boundaries, and I'm sure that soon, we'll see that happen. Logging
> wilderness does not need to happen.
> The primary reason that the forest are in the shape that they are today
> (overgrown, too much fuel, etc), is a near century old policy of putting out
> every little fire that starts.
> If you look back at the Yellowstone fire, and how, "awful" everyone thought
> it was. Well the Park is now healther (by virtually everyones vision) than
> it's probably ever been in remembered history. The Park was really fire
> starved. The FS is learning, and we are learning the hard way.
> Why do you think that fire is bad ??
> Regarding thinning. Logging, IMHO, is not the answer. The parts that need
> thinning, again, on the forest-urban boudaries, are the trees that are way
> over grown and way too thick. These are the smaller trees, not the larger
> trees. The FS person last night, said the same thing, which surprised me
> somewhat, as the timber industry is one of the main sources of income for
> the FS and the timber industry is the one that wants into the deeper
> wilderness areas and they want the big trees. So, logging won't remove the
> fuel (which is the small trees, thick underbrush, etc). Logging will simply
> remove the larger trees. It's all about money, and really nothing else. The
> logging companies want me (through my taxes) to pay for the roads (that the
> FS would build) so they can get to my (the National Forest belongs to us
> all, right) forest, so that they can cut down my trees and make money for
> themselves, not paying me a penny in return. To further all insult, much of
> the timber would be sold overseas (Japan is on of the primary consumers of
> American raw timber) and therefore the resource, or much of it, doesn't even
> stay here.
> The fires doesn't hurt the forest, even the really, really, bad ones, the
> crown fires where old trees are killed, like the current fire. The forest
> will recover and it will be healther because of it. The ideal thing is not
> to have crown fires, as then there is nothing for the forest to recover
> from. Regular burning doesn't hurt the trees at all, and it keeps everything
> cleaned out. Crown fires do kill mature trees (as does logging), and in
> those cases the forest does have to recover and that does take time. But
> recover it will. Again, simply look a Yellowstone. Now, if we don't continue
> to screw up, that forest will remain healthy on it's own, but it must be
> allowed to burn when fires happen, except on the forest-urban boundaries.
> Go back 150 years ago, or 200 years ago, before there was massive logging,
> before every fire was being attacked. The forest were exteremely healty.
> We've screwed it up. The FS service says the same thing. The forest has been
> screwed up only during the last 100 years (almost) of us trying to "protect"
> it. Smokey the Bear did more than anyone every thought that he would ;)
>
> Best,
> Fred
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...>
> To: "Judith Raya" <jraya@a...>
> Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
>
> > All these discussions center around treatment of the wildland-urban
> > interface. They say nothing about the rest of the forest where the
> > environmentalists continually push for more wilderness and roadless
> > designations.
> >
> > Speak out both sides of their mouths, the environmentalists do. (yoda)
> >
> > Someone tell me - am I off base here or am I seeing through their
> > smoke screen?
> >
> > -Roger
> >
> > Judith Raya wrote:
> > >
> > > Good day from the PCCFMU,
> > > > The Center for Biological Diversity is wildly flailing about blaming
> > > > everyone including the state of Arizona for the fires in the White
> > > > Mountains. These people are so fanatical in their "love" of mother
> > > earth
> > > > that they will see her burn rather than admit to their mistakes and
> > > > allow responsible land and forest management to take place. It is my
> > > > belief that most of the leaders in the green groups are mentally ill
> > > and
> > > > in serious need of deprograming and therapy. Their "love" of the earth
> > >
> > > > is not love but an unhealthy obsession. What they essentially do is
> > > > stalk their earth love and anyone who may have divergent interests or
> > > > uses for it other than their own. Burning, terrorizing, intimidation,
> > > > obstruction and litigation are their means to "protect" her ( in
> > > their
> > > > sick minds) from those they state would rape and misuse her.
> > > > It is time to clearly draw the line between good land management
> > > > practices and science, and the druidic, earth worshiping fanaticism
> > > that
> > > > is being foisted upon the people of North America by the green
> > > > organizations across the country.
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > > Glynn Burkhardt
> > > >
> > > > Subject:
> > > > Arizona Fire Update
> > > > Date:
> > > > 24 Jun 2002 23:39:09 -0000
> > > > From:
> > > > "Center for Biological Diveristy"
> > > > <center@b...>
> > > > Reply-To:
> > > > notice-reply-i8gkwb4r78xmbm@a...
> > > > To:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > NEWS ADVISORY: Monday, June 24
> > > > CONTACT: Brian Segee, (520) 623-5252 x308
> > > > More Information:
> > > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > > >
> > > > STATE PRESSURED FOREST SERVICE TO HALT FUELS REDUCTION
> > > > PROJECT IN RODEO BURN AREA
> > > >
> > > > GOVERNOR HULL SCAPEGOATS ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOR LARGEST
> > > > FIRES IN ARIZONA HISTORY
> > > >
> > > > As Arizona faces its largest wildfire in history with
> > > > hundreds of homes destroyed and thousands of people
> > > > evacuated from their homes, Governor Jane Hull has
> > > > seized upon the tragedy to advance her own anti-environmental
> > > > agenda: On Sunday, June 23rd, Hull appeared on television
> > > > to blame environmentalists for the fire.
> > > >
> > > > The Governor predictably failed to explain how environmentalists
> > > > were to blame for the fires. Additionally, the Governor
> > > > failed to mention 1) that a prescribed fire set by
> > > > the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuel loads within
> > > > the burned area was stopped by state intervention,
> > > > 2) the vast majority of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forests have been previously logged by the U.S. Forest
> > > > Service, 3) a recent report by the Government Accounting
> > > > Office (GAO) found that only 1% of Forest Service fuel
> > > > reduction projects were challenged with appeals or
> > > > lawsuits, and 4) a second recent report by the GAO
> > > > found that the Forest Service has misdirected funds
> > > > from its massive fuels reduction budget away from the
> > > > protection of rural communities threatened by fire.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Los Angeles Times recently reported that a prescribed
> > > > fire set by the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuels
> > > > in what is now the Rodeo-Chediski fire was stopped
> > > > by unwarranted intervention by state agencies:
> > > >
> > > > "When controlled burns were set recently in the Apache
> > > > Sitgreaves National Forest, where the Rodeo fire now
> > > > rages, nearby residents complained to state air quality
> > > > officials about the smoke. The state pressured Forest
> > > > Service officials to extinguish the blazes prematurely,
> > > > Anderson (planner on the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forest) said. "Other plans to start controlled burns
> > > > have been blocked by litigation, he said." (17 Blazes
> > > > Charring the West, Los Angeles Times, 6-23-02).
> > > >
> > > > The Governor's scapegoating of environmentalists is
> > > > fundamentally inaccurate. The Center for Biological
> > > > Diversity (CBD), Sierra Club, Southwest Forest Alliance
> > > > and other environmental organizations have long supported
> > > > the use of both prescribed fire and thinning of small-diameter
> > > > trees as the most effective methods to reduce fire
> > > > danger within Southwestern ponderosa pine forests.
> > > > Ironically, CBD sits on Governor's Forest Health/Fire
> > > > Plan Advisory Committee, a group appointed by Jane
> > > > Hull to advise governor on community protection and
> > > > forest restoration issues and to make recommendations
> > > > on where to spend National Fire Plan funds. We also
> > > > are on Senator Bingaman's (D-NM) Community Forest Restoration
> > > > Program Advisory Committee, which is charged with distribution
> > > > of $ 5 million annually to rural communities for forest
> > > > restoration and community protection.
> > > >
> > > > "The Governor is opportunistically and cynically using
> > > > this on-going tragedy to further an anti-environmental
> > > > agenda," stated Brian Segee with CBD. "Not only do
> > > > we strongly support community protection efforts such
> > > > as wildland-urban interface treatments, prescribed
> > > > burning and small-diameter thinning, we are deeply
> > > > involved in on-going collaborative and governmental
> > > > efforts to make such goals a reality."
> > > >
> > > > Independent studies conducted by the federal government
> > > > also directly contradict charges that environmental
> > > > organizations are preventing needed fuels reduction
> > > > projects from being completed. As stated in an August
> > > > 2001 report by the Government Accounting Office (GAO),
> > > > an independent investigative branch of Congress:
> > > >
> > > > "In summary, as of July 18, 2001, the Forest Service
> > > > has completed the necessary environmental analysis
> > > > and had decided to implement 1,671 hazardous fuel reduction
> > > > projects in fiscal year 2001. Of these projects, 20
> > > > (about 1 percent) had been appealed and none had been
> > > > litigated. Appellants included environmental groups,
> > > > recreation groups, private industry interests, and
> > > > individuals."
> > > >
> > > > Under the National Fire Plan, passed in the wake of
> > > > 2000's intense fire season, the Forest Service and
> > > > other federal agencies were given over $2 billion
> > > > to thin brush and small-diameter trees, with an emphasis
> > > > on community protection. GAO research has concluded
> > > > that the Forest Service could not account for how this
> > > > money was being spent. In a January 2002 GAO report
> > > > entitled "Severe Wildland Fires: Leadership and Accountability
> > > > Needed to Reduce Risks to Communities and Resources,"
> > > > it is stated:
> > > >
> > > > "Over a year after the Congress substantially increased
> > > > funds to reduce hazardous fuels, the federal effort
> > > > still lacks clearly defined and effective leadership
> > > > . . .it is not possible to determine if the $796 million
> > > > appropriated for hazardous fuels reduction in fiscal
> > > > years 2001 and 2002 is targeted to the communities
> > > > and other areas at highest risk of severe wildland
> > > > fires."
> > > >
> > > > Finally, forgotten in the Governor's continued and
> > > > escalating attack against environmentalists is the
> > > > fact that almost all of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forests where the two fires are burning has been intensively
> > > > logged. Almost no area along the relatively flat and
> > > > easily accessible Mogollon Rim has been spared from
> > > > logging.
> > > >
> > > > For more information,
> > > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > > >
> > > > (end)
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >


57288 From: jeepindog <jeepindog@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 3:58pm
Subject: Got my 8.8!


So I found, and bought, a Ford 8.8 with calipers/rotors, and
pretty much everything that it came off the Explorer with. Now I
need someone to look at it, and tell me exactly what I will need to
get it under my TJ. I know it needs the obvious stuff, like being
regeared and locked, and brackets... LOL! I need to know if there
are brake line adapters, new lines, etc, and e-brake cables that need
to be switched, replaced, ??? Any help (in person) will be
appreciated. I am in Ahwatukee, at Elliott and I-10.

Lachlan


57289 From: <sharxjeep@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 0:00pm
Subject: Re: Re: azvjc club run to help those displaced by az fires????


Is it cold in here or is it just me...burrrrrrr
That was just plain mean...mean I tell ya. hehehe :)


Sharky


57290 From: Hackle <hackle@q...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:00pm
Subject: RE: Greens Screaming Foul


Good point Roger. I would also like to point out that the current standard
set by the Greenies of 9" trees or smaller is a well researched number. That
is around the number I would expect where logging is not profitable. They
say ok to thinning but pick numbers they know will not result in any
cutting. Remember these people are spin doctors just like they cut loose all
the web links they find do not fit the situation the story they put out
changes with the situation. The have enough money to hire the very best and
are smart enough to listen to them. Truth is not one of the greenies main
priorities. Jim Florence

I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member. "Groucho
Marx"
Member of the original dirty half dozen.
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/index.htm/
http://www.rockrats.org/


-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Tomas [mailto:tomasr@a...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 3:47 PM
To: FredTJ
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul


I strongly disagree with the first sentence below. Any place in a forest
where lightning might strike or a careless person might start a fire, the
forest needs to be managed. And to assume that naturally occuring fires
will occur frequently enough to keep the forest healthy without destroying
it is a gamble I'd prefer not to take.

In any case, based on the current state of undergrowth in our forests, I
as exploited by the Rodeo and Chediski fires, I believe entire forests need
to be managed - not just the areas near the urban boundary.

IMHO.

-Roger

FredTJ wrote:
>
> But the only areas that need "management" is the forest-urban boundaries.
No
> other parts of the forest need management. I taped an interesting thing
last
> night ( on the news ). One of the FS people were saying how the public
icon,
> Smokey the Bear, you know "only you can prevent forest fires" has actually
> contributed to the problem, by instilling in people the thought that all
> forest fires are bad.
> They are NOT.... The forest needs fire. The only thing that is bad, or has
> the potential to be bad, is fire on the forest-urban boundaries where
> property and/or life is risked. This problem needs to be addressed,
> certainly, and I'm sure that it will now. Thinning is require on the
> boundaries, and I'm sure that soon, we'll see that happen. Logging
> wilderness does not need to happen.
> The primary reason that the forest are in the shape that they are today
> (overgrown, too much fuel, etc), is a near century old policy of putting
out
> every little fire that starts.
> If you look back at the Yellowstone fire, and how, "awful" everyone
thought
> it was. Well the Park is now healther (by virtually everyones vision) than
> it's probably ever been in remembered history. The Park was really fire
> starved. The FS is learning, and we are learning the hard way.
> Why do you think that fire is bad ??
> Regarding thinning. Logging, IMHO, is not the answer. The parts that need
> thinning, again, on the forest-urban boudaries, are the trees that are way
> over grown and way too thick. These are the smaller trees, not the larger
> trees. The FS person last night, said the same thing, which surprised me
> somewhat, as the timber industry is one of the main sources of income for
> the FS and the timber industry is the one that wants into the deeper
> wilderness areas and they want the big trees. So, logging won't remove the
> fuel (which is the small trees, thick underbrush, etc). Logging will
simply
> remove the larger trees. It's all about money, and really nothing else.
The
> logging companies want me (through my taxes) to pay for the roads (that
the
> FS would build) so they can get to my (the National Forest belongs to us
> all, right) forest, so that they can cut down my trees and make money for
> themselves, not paying me a penny in return. To further all insult, much
of
> the timber would be sold overseas (Japan is on of the primary consumers of
> American raw timber) and therefore the resource, or much of it, doesn't
even
> stay here.
> The fires doesn't hurt the forest, even the really, really, bad ones, the
> crown fires where old trees are killed, like the current fire. The forest
> will recover and it will be healther because of it. The ideal thing is
not
> to have crown fires, as then there is nothing for the forest to recover
> from. Regular burning doesn't hurt the trees at all, and it keeps
everything
> cleaned out. Crown fires do kill mature trees (as does logging), and in
> those cases the forest does have to recover and that does take time. But
> recover it will. Again, simply look a Yellowstone. Now, if we don't
continue
> to screw up, that forest will remain healthy on it's own, but it must be
> allowed to burn when fires happen, except on the forest-urban boundaries.
> Go back 150 years ago, or 200 years ago, before there was massive logging,
> before every fire was being attacked. The forest were exteremely healty.
> We've screwed it up. The FS service says the same thing. The forest has
been
> screwed up only during the last 100 years (almost) of us trying to
"protect"
> it. Smokey the Bear did more than anyone every thought that he would ;)
>
> Best,
> Fred
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...>
> To: "Judith Raya" <jraya@a...>
> Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
>
> > All these discussions center around treatment of the wildland-urban
> > interface. They say nothing about the rest of the forest where the
> > environmentalists continually push for more wilderness and roadless
> > designations.
> >
> > Speak out both sides of their mouths, the environmentalists do. (yoda)
> >
> > Someone tell me - am I off base here or am I seeing through their
> > smoke screen?
> >
> > -Roger
> >
> > Judith Raya wrote:
> > >
> > > Good day from the PCCFMU,
> > > > The Center for Biological Diversity is wildly flailing about blaming
> > > > everyone including the state of Arizona for the fires in the White
> > > > Mountains. These people are so fanatical in their "love" of mother
> > > earth
> > > > that they will see her burn rather than admit to their mistakes and
> > > > allow responsible land and forest management to take place. It is my
> > > > belief that most of the leaders in the green groups are mentally ill
> > > and
> > > > in serious need of deprograming and therapy. Their "love" of the
earth
> > >
> > > > is not love but an unhealthy obsession. What they essentially do is
> > > > stalk their earth love and anyone who may have divergent interests
or
> > > > uses for it other than their own. Burning, terrorizing,
intimidation,
> > > > obstruction and litigation are their means to "protect" her ( in
> > > their
> > > > sick minds) from those they state would rape and misuse her.
> > > > It is time to clearly draw the line between good land management
> > > > practices and science, and the druidic, earth worshiping fanaticism
> > > that
> > > > is being foisted upon the people of North America by the green
> > > > organizations across the country.
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > > Glynn Burkhardt
> > > >
> > > > Subject:
> > > > Arizona Fire Update
> > > > Date:
> > > > 24 Jun 2002 23:39:09 -0000
> > > > From:
> > > > "Center for Biological Diveristy"
> > > > <center@b...>
> > > > Reply-To:
> > > > notice-reply-i8gkwb4r78xmbm@a...
> > > > To:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > NEWS ADVISORY: Monday, June 24
> > > > CONTACT: Brian Segee, (520) 623-5252 x308
> > > > More Information:
> > > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > > >
> > > > STATE PRESSURED FOREST SERVICE TO HALT FUELS REDUCTION
> > > > PROJECT IN RODEO BURN AREA
> > > >
> > > > GOVERNOR HULL SCAPEGOATS ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOR LARGEST
> > > > FIRES IN ARIZONA HISTORY
> > > >
> > > > As Arizona faces its largest wildfire in history with
> > > > hundreds of homes destroyed and thousands of people
> > > > evacuated from their homes, Governor Jane Hull has
> > > > seized upon the tragedy to advance her own anti-environmental
> > > > agenda: On Sunday, June 23rd, Hull appeared on television
> > > > to blame environmentalists for the fire.
> > > >
> > > > The Governor predictably failed to explain how environmentalists
> > > > were to blame for the fires. Additionally, the Governor
> > > > failed to mention 1) that a prescribed fire set by
> > > > the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuel loads within
> > > > the burned area was stopped by state intervention,
> > > > 2) the vast majority of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forests have been previously logged by the U.S. Forest
> > > > Service, 3) a recent report by the Government Accounting
> > > > Office (GAO) found that only 1% of Forest Service fuel
> > > > reduction projects were challenged with appeals or
> > > > lawsuits, and 4) a second recent report by the GAO
> > > > found that the Forest Service has misdirected funds
> > > > from its massive fuels reduction budget away from the
> > > > protection of rural communities threatened by fire.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Los Angeles Times recently reported that a prescribed
> > > > fire set by the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuels
> > > > in what is now the Rodeo-Chediski fire was stopped
> > > > by unwarranted intervention by state agencies:
> > > >
> > > > "When controlled burns were set recently in the Apache
> > > > Sitgreaves National Forest, where the Rodeo fire now
> > > > rages, nearby residents complained to state air quality
> > > > officials about the smoke. The state pressured Forest
> > > > Service officials to extinguish the blazes prematurely,
> > > > Anderson (planner on the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forest) said. "Other plans to start controlled burns
> > > > have been blocked by litigation, he said." (17 Blazes
> > > > Charring the West, Los Angeles Times, 6-23-02).
> > > >
> > > > The Governor's scapegoating of environmentalists is
> > > > fundamentally inaccurate. The Center for Biological
> > > > Diversity (CBD), Sierra Club, Southwest Forest Alliance
> > > > and other environmental organizations have long supported
> > > > the use of both prescribed fire and thinning of small-diameter
> > > > trees as the most effective methods to reduce fire
> > > > danger within Southwestern ponderosa pine forests.
> > > > Ironically, CBD sits on Governor's Forest Health/Fire
> > > > Plan Advisory Committee, a group appointed by Jane
> > > > Hull to advise governor on community protection and
> > > > forest restoration issues and to make recommendations
> > > > on where to spend National Fire Plan funds. We also
> > > > are on Senator Bingaman's (D-NM) Community Forest Restoration
> > > > Program Advisory Committee, which is charged with distribution
> > > > of $ 5 million annually to rural communities for forest
> > > > restoration and community protection.
> > > >
> > > > "The Governor is opportunistically and cynically using
> > > > this on-going tragedy to further an anti-environmental
> > > > agenda," stated Brian Segee with CBD. "Not only do
> > > > we strongly support community protection efforts such
> > > > as wildland-urban interface treatments, prescribed
> > > > burning and small-diameter thinning, we are deeply
> > > > involved in on-going collaborative and governmental
> > > > efforts to make such goals a reality."
> > > >
> > > > Independent studies conducted by the federal government
> > > > also directly contradict charges that environmental
> > > > organizations are preventing needed fuels reduction
> > > > projects from being completed. As stated in an August
> > > > 2001 report by the Government Accounting Office (GAO),
> > > > an independent investigative branch of Congress:
> > > >
> > > > "In summary, as of July 18, 2001, the Forest Service
> > > > has completed the necessary environmental analysis
> > > > and had decided to implement 1,671 hazardous fuel reduction
> > > > projects in fiscal year 2001. Of these projects, 20
> > > > (about 1 percent) had been appealed and none had been
> > > > litigated. Appellants included environmental groups,
> > > > recreation groups, private industry interests, and
> > > > individuals."
> > > >
> > > > Under the National Fire Plan, passed in the wake of
> > > > 2000's intense fire season, the Forest Service and
> > > > other federal agencies were given over $2 billion
> > > > to thin brush and small-diameter trees, with an emphasis
> > > > on community protection. GAO research has concluded
> > > > that the Forest Service could not account for how this
> > > > money was being spent. In a January 2002 GAO report
> > > > entitled "Severe Wildland Fires: Leadership and Accountability
> > > > Needed to Reduce Risks to Communities and Resources,"
> > > > it is stated:
> > > >
> > > > "Over a year after the Congress substantially increased
> > > > funds to reduce hazardous fuels, the federal effort
> > > > still lacks clearly defined and effective leadership
> > > > . . .it is not possible to determine if the $796 million
> > > > appropriated for hazardous fuels reduction in fiscal
> > > > years 2001 and 2002 is targeted to the communities
> > > > and other areas at highest risk of severe wildland
> > > > fires."
> > > >
> > > > Finally, forgotten in the Governor's continued and
> > > > escalating attack against environmentalists is the
> > > > fact that almost all of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forests where the two fires are burning has been intensively
> > > > logged. Almost no area along the relatively flat and
> > > > easily accessible Mogollon Rim has been spared from
> > > > logging.
> > > >
> > > > For more information,
> > > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > > >
> > > > (end)
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


57291 From: <sharxjeep@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 0:02pm
Subject: Re: possible fire run decal?????


I like it..put me down for 2

Sharky


57292 From: Chatfield, Mike <Mike@A...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:07pm
Subject: RE: Greens Screaming Foul


> I believe entire forests need to be managed - not just the
> areas near the urban boundary.

Exactly! Did the fires start in a subdivision? NO! They started in the
middle of nowhere.


57293 From: <salsaholic602@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 0:07pm
Subject: re:magnetic decals


I'll take 2, for real.


Anthony Celaya
chaton602@y...


57294 From: <sharxjeep@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 0:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: azvjc club run to help those displaced by az fires????


I heard the same thing...they have more than enough of everything but
money...I also heard that they prefer donations be dropped in town rather
than have unneccisary traffic up north.

Sharky


57295 From: jeepin_in_az <jeepin_in_az@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:15pm
Subject: Re: Got my 8.8!


You gonna stick with coils in the back, or leafs?

Mike Baney


--- In az_vjc@y..., "jeepindog" <jeepindog@y...> wrote:
> So I found, and bought, a Ford 8.8 with calipers/rotors, and
> pretty much everything that it came off the Explorer with. Now I
> need someone to look at it, and tell me exactly what I will need to
> get it under my TJ. I know it needs the obvious stuff, like being
> regeared and locked, and brackets... LOL! I need to know if there
> are brake line adapters, new lines, etc, and e-brake cables that
need
> to be switched, replaced, ??? Any help (in person) will be
> appreciated. I am in Ahwatukee, at Elliott and I-10.
>
> Lachlan


57296 From: Judith Raya <jraya@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 3:35pm
Subject: [Fwd: USFS refuses help on forest fires]


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: USFS refuses help on forest fires
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:48:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Salars <d_salars@y...>
To: Glynn Burkhardt <gly734@e...>




Federal Government Declines Private Assistance --
Again

(DENVER CO) Thursday, June 13, was not an ordinary day
for Ron Largent.
The Hayman blaze, on its way to becoming the largest
wildfire in the
history of Colorado, was burning out of control at
Lake George, just 25
miles north of Ron's home in Cripple Creek. The U.S.
Forest Service
hadn't been able to contain it. Today Ron was going to
fight the fire.

Ron Largent is the Operations Manager for Anglo Gold
Mining in Cripple
Creek, Colorado. Concerned about the fire's progress,
his company had
volunteered men and equipment to help cut a firebreak.
The Pueblo office

of the US Forest Service had indicated it could use
three pieces of
earthmoving machinery: two Caterpillar D10 bulldozers,
and one D8. The
600-horsepower D10 has an 18' blade and is almost
seven feet tall. It
can uproot large trees without even breathing hard.

Anglo Gold had already arranged with Ames Construction
of Denver to move

the bulldozers to the base camp at Lake George.
Special trailers for
moving them had been driven to Colorado -- one from
Utah, the other from

Kansas. Anglo Gold and Ames Construction were
splitting the $5,000 cost
of transporting the dozers to Lake George.

The dozers pulled into Lake George on Thursday
afternoon, accompanied by

a bevy of heavy equipment operators from the mine who
were ready to run
the equipment 24 hours a day and cut a firebreak from
Lake George to
Divide, then over to Woodland Park. The men figured
they could cut a 35'

wide firebreak for 20 miles through the forest in
about a week. And they

were offering to do this at no cost to the government.
They just wanted
to help.

Incredibly, the U.S. Forest Service turned them down.
Kim Martin, the
Incident Commander for the Forest Service, told Ron
"The equipment is
too heavy. It will tear up the land."

Ron's a big-hearted guy. He still wanted to help. He
expanded Anglo
Gold's offer of assistance. Not only would they cut a
20-mile firebreak
to help contain the fire at no charge to the Forest
Service -- Anglo
Gold would also commit to replant trees in the
affected area once the
fire was out. But Martin was having none of it.

On Friday, June 14, Ron Largent and his crew returned
to Cripple Creek.
A week later, they're still seething. The fire remains
uncontrolled on
its southeastern flank. And the Forest Service is
finally calling in
bulldozers. Little ones, from the Army, in Fort
Carson. Almost fifty
miles away.

After recounting this story, Mr. Kent McNaughton, a
resident of
Crystola, said, "I'm a homeowner in the area
threatened by this fire.
The Forest Service calls it 'a monster.' I'm incensed
that the Forest
Service has decided to fight the fire with one hand
tied behind their
back. They're fighting a bear with a pea shooter. They
needed a rifle;
and when it was offered, they declined it."

When asked for his reaction, Rick Stanley, the
Libertarian candidate for

U.S. Senate, was characteristically blunt. "Two years
ago, when the fire

started at Mesa Verde National Park, local volunteers
showed up with
bulldozers and water trucks.* They could have put the
fire out in a
matter of hours. But the National Park Service was
unwilling to accept
private assistance. 24,000 acres of beautiful forest
land was
incinerated before that fire burned itself out."

"Apparently the federal government doesn't want to let
American citizens

defend our nation against the threat of wildfire,"
Stanley continued.

"At the Hayman fire, Kim Martin was unwilling to
accept the destruction
of 90 acres** of forest by bulldozers. Apparently it
makes more sense to

let 130,000 acres of forest land burn to the ground,
and to force
thousands of innocent people to flee their homes, than
to let hard
working Americans take a hand in defending their
property from natural
disaster. Not!

"This unconstitutional government is not only denying
our liberty -- it
is also destroying our property. The federal
government has no lawful
authority to prevent civilian volunteers from
assisting in this nation's

defense. And yet they do it again, and again, and
again.

"How long will America suffer under this
unconstitutional government?
When will the citizenry decide that enough is enough?"

##30##

* See articles by Janelle Holden in the Cortez
Journal, July 29, 2000.

** A firebreak 35' wide and 20 miles long is 3.6
million sq. ft., or
roughly 90 acres.

Kent McNaughton (719-686-0676) provided most of the
facts in this story.

He interviewed Ron Largent (719-689-4042) and Ames
Construction
(719-689-5531) to learn the details.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


57297 From: Janice Allison <jallison@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:25pm
Subject: Re: Re: Payson relief run this weekend.


Josh,

I'm at 43rd and Broadway if you need some help hauling goods. Just give me
a buzz.

Jan



At 09:48 PM 6/25/02 +0000, pebble007 wrote:
>Hello all,
> My company has allowed me to put a box in the lobby for
>donations for this weekend. I may get more than I can handle and may
>need a little help gettting it all. Is there anybody in the 40th
>street and broadway area that can help pick some of this stuff up if
>I need it.
>TIA
>Josh Wooten
>99 TJ
>--- In az_vjc@y..., "David Withers" <dwithers@a...> wrote:
> > Very well put
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Roger Tomas [mailto:tomasr@a...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 12:56 PM
> > To: g_rob_williams
> > Cc: az_vjc@y...; msa12171
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Payson relief run this weekend.
> >
> >
> > Rob,
> >
> > I appreciate what you have done. You got this whole thing going and
> > that in itself is a lot.
> >
> > ----------------
> >
> > Let's talk about some of the logistics. I've heard people offer up
> > trailers and box trucks. Are we really going to be able to collect
>that
> > much stuff in such little time? We don't even seem to have an
>accurate
> > list of needed items (which seems to differ depending on which
> > organization you talk to).
> >
> > Due to the short time frame we have, we need to keep things as
>simple as
> > possible. I'm thinking everyone who wants to participate should
>attempt
> > to fill their own Jeep (or other vehicle) with needed items for an
> > organization of their choosing. But we need to have one person
>(Mike?)
> > contact each organization and post a definitive list of needed
>items.
> > I'm thinking the organizations to be contacted should be the Red
>Cross,
> > the Salvation Army and the Humane Society. Anything else? The
>forest
> > service? Once we have the definitive lists, people can choose which
> > organization they want to donate to and then seek donations.
> >
> > This approach helps ensure we provide items that are needed while
> > allowing club members to work as independently as possible. We
>don't
> > want to get bogged down in coordinating things and lots of
>unnecessary
> > communication. Other than some up front work to identify the
> > organization(s) and their needed items, the only other coordinated
> > activity I see happening is the jeep caravan to Payson. I think we
> > should meet along the Beeline Highway (aka 87) near Fountain Hills
> > though I don't know how well that works for folks coming up from
>Tucson.
> >
> > -Roger
> >
> >
> > g_rob_williams wrote:
> > >
> > > I dont have time to all the legwork for this. I like everyone
>else
> > > work full time during the day, and I have school mon-thurs
>evenings. I
> >
> > > have already been chewed out once for as much time as I'm
>spending on
> > > these e-mails trying to clarify what is going on, and getting
> > > chastized by quite a few of you out there for even trying to do
>this!!
> >
> > > I just tried to suggest something I thought would be easy to do,
>and
> > > to help out these people. Someone suggested I post it to see if
>there
> > > is an interest, and now I am the spearhead for this. I will be
>more
> > > than willing to help, but I can't organize it. I talked to my
>mother
> > > last night and we will be at the Payson relief site to volunteer
>to
> > > help with whatever they need. I still want to do the run, and
>have
> > > plenty of donations, but again, I can not organize
> > > this! -Rob
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Janice Allison, Business Manager
University of Arizona
Maricopa County Cooperative Extension
(602) 470-8086, ext. 362


57298 From: FredTJ <fredtj@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:27pm
Subject: Re: Greens Screaming Foul


Mmmmm, I don't "sign his messages" ?? Ever one has been signed, I usually
use "Best, Fred" or "Cheers, Fred" or ":) Fred". What more do you want ??
I've posted here on somewhat of a regular basis for some time (maybe over a
year, I really can't remember). What more would you like to know. Stu has
met me, Chris K. has met me, Linda L, has met me, DougB has met me (I've
done a handful of runs with him). Joey has met me (H2H), mmmmm, perhaps
others. I live in Tucson, so don't get up to Phoenix and the area much. Yes,
I have a TJ. A nicely setup TJ.
I actually don't expect anyone to stand up and say "hey, I know him"...
People obviously think I'm green now ;) I belong to no "green" groups,
never had, probably never will. There are always two sides to every issue,
and I've been pounded and pounded by one side, and now I'm looking at both
sides, and asking questions and stating, simply, my opinions, as are others
here. Why are you upset ? What's upset you about the post. That I happen to
believe that forest fires, aren't be defination bad, or that the timber
industry shouldn't be allowed to log where ever and when ever they want.
Sorry if that upsets you. Really.
Now, Jim, since you've put words in my mouth "adding wilderness area",
please show me, in one of my post where I said that I wanted to add
wilderness areas for example.
As I explained in a previous e-mail, for myself, and myself only, I'm on a
fact finding mission. I've been following various of these issues off and on
for many years, but know, for some reason, I'm looking for cold hard facts
and I'm finding some.
Anyway, I won't be posting much more on any of these issues. People have
there own ideas, and that's the way it should be. I simply believe that
forest fires (except, obviously, in and around populated areas) are NOT a
bad thing, but actually good.

NOTE: signed ;)
Best ,
Fred


----- Original Message -----
From: "Hackle" <hackle@q...>
Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 3:15 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul


> Who is FredTJ he does not sign his messages and he spends his time
> explaining things about how great the greenie's are? Has anyone ever met
him
> on a run does he have a TJ?
> He avoids explaining how stopping roads and adding wilderness area stops
> fires. (this is a greenie tool correct)
> If someone knows him and I am off base let me know. But for someone that
> has not been involved with many e-mails in the past he seems to be trying
to
> make up for it on this subject. Jim Florence
>
> I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member. "Groucho
> Marx"
> Member of the original dirty half dozen.
> http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/index.htm/
> http://www.rockrats.org/
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: FredTJ [mailto:fredtj@c...]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 2:28 PM
> To: Roger Tomas; Judith Raya
> Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
>
>
> But the only areas that need "management" is the forest-urban boundaries.
No
> other parts of the forest need management. I taped an interesting thing
last
> night ( on the news ). One of the FS people were saying how the public
icon,
> Smokey the Bear, you know "only you can prevent forest fires" has actually
> contributed to the problem, by instilling in people the thought that all
> forest fires are bad.
> They are NOT.... The forest needs fire. The only thing that is bad, or has
> the potential to be bad, is fire on the forest-urban boundaries where
> property and/or life is risked. This problem needs to be addressed,
> certainly, and I'm sure that it will now. Thinning is require on the
> boundaries, and I'm sure that soon, we'll see that happen. Logging
> wilderness does not need to happen.
> The primary reason that the forest are in the shape that they are today
> (overgrown, too much fuel, etc), is a near century old policy of putting
out
> every little fire that starts.
> If you look back at the Yellowstone fire, and how, "awful" everyone
thought
> it was. Well the Park is now healther (by virtually everyones vision) than
> it's probably ever been in remembered history. The Park was really fire
> starved. The FS is learning, and we are learning the hard way.
> Why do you think that fire is bad ??
> Regarding thinning. Logging, IMHO, is not the answer. The parts that need
> thinning, again, on the forest-urban boudaries, are the trees that are way
> over grown and way too thick. These are the smaller trees, not the larger
> trees. The FS person last night, said the same thing, which surprised me
> somewhat, as the timber industry is one of the main sources of income for
> the FS and the timber industry is the one that wants into the deeper
> wilderness areas and they want the big trees. So, logging won't remove the
> fuel (which is the small trees, thick underbrush, etc). Logging will
simply
> remove the larger trees. It's all about money, and really nothing else.
The
> logging companies want me (through my taxes) to pay for the roads (that
the
> FS would build) so they can get to my (the National Forest belongs to us
> all, right) forest, so that they can cut down my trees and make money for
> themselves, not paying me a penny in return. To further all insult, much
of
> the timber would be sold overseas (Japan is on of the primary consumers of
> American raw timber) and therefore the resource, or much of it, doesn't
even
> stay here.
> The fires doesn't hurt the forest, even the really, really, bad ones, the
> crown fires where old trees are killed, like the current fire. The forest
> will recover and it will be healther because of it. The ideal thing is
not
> to have crown fires, as then there is nothing for the forest to recover
> from. Regular burning doesn't hurt the trees at all, and it keeps
everything
> cleaned out. Crown fires do kill mature trees (as does logging), and in
> those cases the forest does have to recover and that does take time. But
> recover it will. Again, simply look a Yellowstone. Now, if we don't
continue
> to screw up, that forest will remain healthy on it's own, but it must be
> allowed to burn when fires happen, except on the forest-urban boundaries.
> Go back 150 years ago, or 200 years ago, before there was massive logging,
> before every fire was being attacked. The forest were exteremely healty.
> We've screwed it up. The FS service says the same thing. The forest has
been
> screwed up only during the last 100 years (almost) of us trying to
"protect"
> it. Smokey the Bear did more than anyone every thought that he would ;)
>
>
> Best,
> Fred
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...>
> To: "Judith Raya" <jraya@a...>
> Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
>
>
> > All these discussions center around treatment of the wildland-urban
> > interface. They say nothing about the rest of the forest where the
> > environmentalists continually push for more wilderness and roadless
> > designations.
> >
> > Speak out both sides of their mouths, the environmentalists do. (yoda)
> >
> > Someone tell me - am I off base here or am I seeing through their
> > smoke screen?
> >
> > -Roger
> >
> > Judith Raya wrote:
> > >
> > > Good day from the PCCFMU,
> > > > The Center for Biological Diversity is wildly flailing about blaming
> > > > everyone including the state of Arizona for the fires in the White
> > > > Mountains. These people are so fanatical in their "love" of mother
> > > earth
> > > > that they will see her burn rather than admit to their mistakes and
> > > > allow responsible land and forest management to take place. It is my
> > > > belief that most of the leaders in the green groups are mentally ill
> > > and
> > > > in serious need of deprograming and therapy. Their "love" of the
earth
> > >
> > > > is not love but an unhealthy obsession. What they essentially do is
> > > > stalk their earth love and anyone who may have divergent interests
or
> > > > uses for it other than their own. Burning, terrorizing,
intimidation,
> > > > obstruction and litigation are their means to "protect" her ( in
> > > their
> > > > sick minds) from those they state would rape and misuse her.
> > > > It is time to clearly draw the line between good land management
> > > > practices and science, and the druidic, earth worshiping fanaticism
> > > that
> > > > is being foisted upon the people of North America by the green
> > > > organizations across the country.
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > > Glynn Burkhardt
> > > >
> > > > Subject:
> > > > Arizona Fire Update
> > > > Date:
> > > > 24 Jun 2002 23:39:09 -0000
> > > > From:
> > > > "Center for Biological Diveristy"
> > > > <center@b...>
> > > > Reply-To:
> > > > notice-reply-i8gkwb4r78xmbm@a...
> > > > To:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > NEWS ADVISORY: Monday, June 24
> > > > CONTACT: Brian Segee, (520) 623-5252 x308
> > > > More Information:
> > > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > > >
> > > > STATE PRESSURED FOREST SERVICE TO HALT FUELS REDUCTION
> > > > PROJECT IN RODEO BURN AREA
> > > >
> > > > GOVERNOR HULL SCAPEGOATS ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOR LARGEST
> > > > FIRES IN ARIZONA HISTORY
> > > >
> > > > As Arizona faces its largest wildfire in history with
> > > > hundreds of homes destroyed and thousands of people
> > > > evacuated from their homes, Governor Jane Hull has
> > > > seized upon the tragedy to advance her own anti-environmental
> > > > agenda: On Sunday, June 23rd, Hull appeared on television
> > > > to blame environmentalists for the fire.
> > > >
> > > > The Governor predictably failed to explain how environmentalists
> > > > were to blame for the fires. Additionally, the Governor
> > > > failed to mention 1) that a prescribed fire set by
> > > > the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuel loads within
> > > > the burned area was stopped by state intervention,
> > > > 2) the vast majority of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forests have been previously logged by the U.S. Forest
> > > > Service, 3) a recent report by the Government Accounting
> > > > Office (GAO) found that only 1% of Forest Service fuel
> > > > reduction projects were challenged with appeals or
> > > > lawsuits, and 4) a second recent report by the GAO
> > > > found that the Forest Service has misdirected funds
> > > > from its massive fuels reduction budget away from the
> > > > protection of rural communities threatened by fire.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Los Angeles Times recently reported that a prescribed
> > > > fire set by the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuels
> > > > in what is now the Rodeo-Chediski fire was stopped
> > > > by unwarranted intervention by state agencies:
> > > >
> > > > "When controlled burns were set recently in the Apache
> > > > Sitgreaves National Forest, where the Rodeo fire now
> > > > rages, nearby residents complained to state air quality
> > > > officials about the smoke. The state pressured Forest
> > > > Service officials to extinguish the blazes prematurely,
> > > > Anderson (planner on the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forest) said. "Other plans to start controlled burns
> > > > have been blocked by litigation, he said." (17 Blazes
> > > > Charring the West, Los Angeles Times, 6-23-02).
> > > >
> > > > The Governor's scapegoating of environmentalists is
> > > > fundamentally inaccurate. The Center for Biological
> > > > Diversity (CBD), Sierra Club, Southwest Forest Alliance
> > > > and other environmental organizations have long supported
> > > > the use of both prescribed fire and thinning of small-diameter
> > > > trees as the most effective methods to reduce fire
> > > > danger within Southwestern ponderosa pine forests.
> > > > Ironically, CBD sits on Governor's Forest Health/Fire
> > > > Plan Advisory Committee, a group appointed by Jane
> > > > Hull to advise governor on community protection and
> > > > forest restoration issues and to make recommendations
> > > > on where to spend National Fire Plan funds. We also
> > > > are on Senator Bingaman's (D-NM) Community Forest Restoration
> > > > Program Advisory Committee, which is charged with distribution
> > > > of $ 5 million annually to rural communities for forest
> > > > restoration and community protection.
> > > >
> > > > "The Governor is opportunistically and cynically using
> > > > this on-going tragedy to further an anti-environmental
> > > > agenda," stated Brian Segee with CBD. "Not only do
> > > > we strongly support community protection efforts such
> > > > as wildland-urban interface treatments, prescribed
> > > > burning and small-diameter thinning, we are deeply
> > > > involved in on-going collaborative and governmental
> > > > efforts to make such goals a reality."
> > > >
> > > > Independent studies conducted by the federal government
> > > > also directly contradict charges that environmental
> > > > organizations are preventing needed fuels reduction
> > > > projects from being completed. As stated in an August
> > > > 2001 report by the Government Accounting Office (GAO),
> > > > an independent investigative branch of Congress:
> > > >
> > > > "In summary, as of July 18, 2001, the Forest Service
> > > > has completed the necessary environmental analysis
> > > > and had decided to implement 1,671 hazardous fuel reduction
> > > > projects in fiscal year 2001. Of these projects, 20
> > > > (about 1 percent) had been appealed and none had been
> > > > litigated. Appellants included environmental groups,
> > > > recreation groups, private industry interests, and
> > > > individuals."
> > > >
> > > > Under the National Fire Plan, passed in the wake of
> > > > 2000's intense fire season, the Forest Service and
> > > > other federal agencies were given over $2 billion
> > > > to thin brush and small-diameter trees, with an emphasis
> > > > on community protection. GAO research has concluded
> > > > that the Forest Service could not account for how this
> > > > money was being spent. In a January 2002 GAO report
> > > > entitled "Severe Wildland Fires: Leadership and Accountability
> > > > Needed to Reduce Risks to Communities and Resources,"
> > > > it is stated:
> > > >
> > > > "Over a year after the Congress substantially increased
> > > > funds to reduce hazardous fuels, the federal effort
> > > > still lacks clearly defined and effective leadership
> > > > . . .it is not possible to determine if the $796 million
> > > > appropriated for hazardous fuels reduction in fiscal
> > > > years 2001 and 2002 is targeted to the communities
> > > > and other areas at highest risk of severe wildland
> > > > fires."
> > > >
> > > > Finally, forgotten in the Governor's continued and
> > > > escalating attack against environmentalists is the
> > > > fact that almost all of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > > Forests where the two fires are burning has been intensively
> > > > logged. Almost no area along the relatively flat and
> > > > easily accessible Mogollon Rim has been spared from
> > > > logging.
> > > >
> > > > For more information,
> > > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > > >
> > > > (end)
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> >
> >
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> >
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57299 From: FredTJ <fredtj@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:29pm
Subject: Re: Re: Greens Screaming Foul


Josh, I've never said that logging should be completely banned, did I ?? If
so, it's certainly not what I meant. I believe (my believe only) that
logging should not be used to thin out wilderness areas. I also happen to
believe, very strongly, the fire in wilderness areas (everyone get this, not
around occupied areas), is simply not bad, but actually good and healthy for
the forest. That's all, nothing more, nothing less ;)


Best regards,
Fred

----- Original Message -----
From: "pebble007" <jawooten@c...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 2:45 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Greens Screaming Foul


> Fred,
> I can't agree more (as stated in my previous posts)but and it is
> a big but at that8) logging is a neccessary thing - how was your
> house built if not with some lumber. As for going overseas - while
> the lumber may go the jobs it creates are here as well as most of the
> money which is then put back into the economy you and I rely on to
> make our living (unless your a monk who lives in cave and only eats
> what he grows LOL!
> So what is the solution - I don't begin to even think I know, but I
> can't believe all of the greenies retoric and as with any goverment
> bueracracy (sp) there is definite problems with the FS. It probably
> lies somewhere in the middle.
> My 100-.98 worth.
> Josh Wooten
> 99 TJ
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "FredTJ" <fredtj@c...> wrote:
> > But the only areas that need "management" is the forest-urban
> boundaries. No
> > other parts of the forest need management. I taped an interesting
> thing last
> > night ( on the news ). One of the FS people were saying how the
> public icon,
> > Smokey the Bear, you know "only you can prevent forest fires" has
> actually
> > contributed to the problem, by instilling in people the thought
> that all
> > forest fires are bad.
> > They are NOT.... The forest needs fire. The only thing that is bad,
> or has
> > the potential to be bad, is fire on the forest-urban boundaries
> where
> > property and/or life is risked. This problem needs to be addressed,
> > certainly, and I'm sure that it will now. Thinning is require on the
> > boundaries, and I'm sure that soon, we'll see that happen. Logging
> > wilderness does not need to happen.
> > The primary reason that the forest are in the shape that they are
> today
> > (overgrown, too much fuel, etc), is a near century old policy of
> putting out
> > every little fire that starts.
> > If you look back at the Yellowstone fire, and how, "awful" everyone
> thought
> > it was. Well the Park is now healther (by virtually everyones
> vision) than
> > it's probably ever been in remembered history. The Park was really
> fire
> > starved. The FS is learning, and we are learning the hard way.
> > Why do you think that fire is bad ??
> > Regarding thinning. Logging, IMHO, is not the answer. The parts
> that need
> > thinning, again, on the forest-urban boudaries, are the trees that
> are way
> > over grown and way too thick. These are the smaller trees, not the
> larger
> > trees. The FS person last night, said the same thing, which
> surprised me
> > somewhat, as the timber industry is one of the main sources of
> income for
> > the FS and the timber industry is the one that wants into the deeper
> > wilderness areas and they want the big trees. So, logging won't
> remove the
> > fuel (which is the small trees, thick underbrush, etc). Logging
> will simply
> > remove the larger trees. It's all about money, and really nothing
> else. The
> > logging companies want me (through my taxes) to pay for the roads
> (that the
> > FS would build) so they can get to my (the National Forest belongs
> to us
> > all, right) forest, so that they can cut down my trees and make
> money for
> > themselves, not paying me a penny in return. To further all insult,
> much of
> > the timber would be sold overseas (Japan is on of the primary
> consumers of
> > American raw timber) and therefore the resource, or much of it,
> doesn't even
> > stay here.
> > The fires doesn't hurt the forest, even the really, really, bad
> ones, the
> > crown fires where old trees are killed, like the current fire. The
> forest
> > will recover and it will be healther because of it. The ideal
> thing is not
> > to have crown fires, as then there is nothing for the forest to
> recover
> > from. Regular burning doesn't hurt the trees at all, and it keeps
> everything
> > cleaned out. Crown fires do kill mature trees (as does logging),
> and in
> > those cases the forest does have to recover and that does take
> time. But
> > recover it will. Again, simply look a Yellowstone. Now, if we don't
> continue
> > to screw up, that forest will remain healthy on it's own, but it
> must be
> > allowed to burn when fires happen, except on the forest-urban
> boundaries.
> > Go back 150 years ago, or 200 years ago, before there was massive
> logging,
> > before every fire was being attacked. The forest were exteremely
> healty.
> > We've screwed it up. The FS service says the same thing. The forest
> has been
> > screwed up only during the last 100 years (almost) of us trying
> to "protect"
> > it. Smokey the Bear did more than anyone every thought that he
> would ;)
> >
> >
> > Best,
> > Fred
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...>
> > To: "Judith Raya" <jraya@a...>
> > Cc: <az_vjc@y...>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:00 AM
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
> >
> >
> > > All these discussions center around treatment of the wildland-
> urban
> > > interface. They say nothing about the rest of the forest where
> the
> > > environmentalists continually push for more wilderness and
> roadless
> > > designations.
> > >
> > > Speak out both sides of their mouths, the environmentalists do.
> (yoda)
> > >
> > > Someone tell me - am I off base here or am I seeing through their
> > > smoke screen?
> > >
> > > -Roger
> > >
> > > Judith Raya wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Good day from the PCCFMU,
> > > > > The Center for Biological Diversity is wildly flailing about
> blaming
> > > > > everyone including the state of Arizona for the fires in the
> White
> > > > > Mountains. These people are so fanatical in their "love" of
> mother
> > > > earth
> > > > > that they will see her burn rather than admit to their
> mistakes and
> > > > > allow responsible land and forest management to take place.
> It is my
> > > > > belief that most of the leaders in the green groups are
> mentally ill
> > > > and
> > > > > in serious need of deprograming and therapy. Their "love" of
> the earth
> > > >
> > > > > is not love but an unhealthy obsession. What they essentially
> do is
> > > > > stalk their earth love and anyone who may have divergent
> interests or
> > > > > uses for it other than their own. Burning, terrorizing,
> intimidation,
> > > > > obstruction and litigation are their means to "protect" her
> ( in
> > > > their
> > > > > sick minds) from those they state would rape and misuse her.
> > > > > It is time to clearly draw the line between good land
> management
> > > > > practices and science, and the druidic, earth worshiping
> fanaticism
> > > > that
> > > > > is being foisted upon the people of North America by the green
> > > > > organizations across the country.
> > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > Glynn Burkhardt
> > > > >
> > > > > Subject:
> > > > > Arizona Fire Update
> > > > > Date:
> > > > > 24 Jun 2002 23:39:09 -0000
> > > > > From:
> > > > > "Center for Biological Diveristy"
> > > > > <center@b...>
> > > > > Reply-To:
> > > > > notice-reply-i8gkwb4r78xmbm@a...
> > > > > To:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > NEWS ADVISORY: Monday, June 24
> > > > > CONTACT: Brian Segee, (520) 623-5252 x308
> > > > > More Information:
> > > > >
> http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > > > >
> > > > > STATE PRESSURED FOREST SERVICE TO HALT FUELS REDUCTION
> > > > > PROJECT IN RODEO BURN AREA
> > > > >
> > > > > GOVERNOR HULL SCAPEGOATS ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOR LARGEST
> > > > > FIRES IN ARIZONA HISTORY
> > > > >
> > > > > As Arizona faces its largest wildfire in history with
> > > > > hundreds of homes destroyed and thousands of people
> > > > > evacuated from their homes, Governor Jane Hull has
> > > > > seized upon the tragedy to advance her own anti-en