blooddrive
01-05-2004, 08:03 PM
57252-57276
57252 From: my2001tj <my2001tj@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 0:29pm
Subject: Fire run sticker
I will take two in black
Dean
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
57253 From: pebble007 <jawooten@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 0:32pm
Subject: Re: OT: Anyone Skydive?
Robert and Joe,
There is a great place out in Buckeye that I and
several of my friends went to for our first jumps ( I still only have
one:(. They were great and reasonably priced. Maybe we could get a
group run together as the price drops with more jumpers.
Josh
99 TJ
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> Robert,
>
> I'm game for learning to skydive with you... keep me posted on what
you find
> out.
> I just LOVE knocking off all these "before I die I really want
to..." kinds
> of issues.
> Please let me know what you find out.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Joe West
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rubberside_up309 [mailto:rubberside_up309@y...]
> > Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 4:38 PM
> > To: az_vjc@y...
> > Subject: [az_vjc] OT: Anyone Skydive?
> >
> >
> > I want to get a jump as a birthday gift for my girlfriend and
need to
> > know who the best organization to use is. I have no problem going
to
> > Tucson if need be. Sorry for the OT post but I figured with all
the
> > members someone would know a good place to jump, or works for a
> > place. Thanks for any help you can give.
> > Robert
> > Pray for rain skydive till then!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
57254 From: Joe West <joe.west@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 0:44pm
Subject: LISTEN UP! Let's ORGANIZE for this weekend... was RE: Re: Payson relief run this weekend.
Mike, Robert, et. al...
It is important to remember that providing the WRONG thing is worse than
providing nothing. It is EXTREMELY important that, if we participate in
bringing something up to Payson, that it be the RIGHT things... whether that
be money or canned dog food or water in 1.5L jugs instead of gallon jugs...
whatever it is that we bring, it needs to be exactly what they need or it
needs to be nothing.... no one needs to have to figure out how to
disposition a ton of crap (no matter how well intentioned we might be) that
we bring up which is not needed.
That being said, Rob has said that he does not want to lead this effort and
it appears that Mike has picked up the slack.
Mike... if this is true, it is up to you to:
1. Make sure we have a good turnout. Can we get 100 Jeeps?
2. Make sure we have the latest information on what is needed.
3. Make sure that you are in contact with the facility we are going to be
delivering the items to.
4. Set a meeting time and place (I don't see it posted on the run on
azvjc.org)
5. Advertise? Can we get this in a local paper or two? TV?
Once again, we have a chance to make a difference. If the local shelter
needs money... why not get one hundred Jeeps and each of us bring $10.00 to
donate?
Mike... if you need help with anything, you let me know. I'll be happy to
try and give you a hand as best I can.
How about the rest of you heavy hitters in the club? Care to throw your
weight behind doing something? Without your help, this isn't going to
happen.
Let's go gang... it will be fun... and I promise:
You ain't felt anything like seeing a caravan of 100 Jeeps rolling down the
road...
Kind Regards,
Joe West
> -----Original Message-----
> From: msa12171 [mailto:msa12171@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:54 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Payson relief run this weekend.
>
>
> I will get the info of what is needed for everyone. I talked to John
> Holmberg (98 KUPD) and he has mentioned this on the morning radio for
> us. Also I am posting it on my website (www.azod.com) as well as
> having the trip report in the magazine (Arizona Outdoorsman). As
> soon as I get the list of needed items, I will post it for everyone.
> I can fill my garage with stuff and if needed I can get a trailer or
> U-haul to take up there. Anyone that wants to help me with all the
> donations and organizing this, please let me know. Thanks.
>
> Mike Anderson
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
57255 From: The Acuna Family <mkacuna@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 0:54pm
Subject: Re: fire run decal info.....
I'll take 3 in red.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...>
To: "sign_xpressions" <sign_xpressions@y...>
Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] fire run decal info.....
> I'd buy two in white.
>
> -Roger
>
> sign_xpressions wrote:
> >
> > seems to be some intrest in doing these, so let me tell you alittle
> > info...the stickers are die cut decals...which is vinyl...the size is
> > aprox. 4 1/2 inches tall by 5 1/2 inches at the widest part...being
> > a die cut decal...the color of the sticker is the color of the
> > vinyl...the parts in the image that are white will be the color of
> > what they are applied to..(i.e. if you have a red jeep they will be
> > red) ..this seem to be about as small as i can get them, and still
> > get a good weeding with them (having my jeep like vehicle in the
> > middle).
> >
> > http://home.earthlink.net/~aduncanphotos/Images/Fire1.jpg
> >
> > i can't make them in a full color image cause that would take too
> > much time...and i would need to do a huge run of them because
> > we don't do that in house.
> >
> > for a sticker of this size they would sell for about the $5.00 range
> > with the level of detail in them.....so the next question would be
> > how much to charge with the profits going to the red cross or
> > someone of that nature...i know what the profit margin of the
> > sticker is so if we charged the $5.00 rate..we will get some
> > money for the red cross...if people want to pay more i will just
> > give the extra also.
> >
> > thinking of making some in black (like the image) some in white,
> > and a few in red.....so my next question is how would we get
> > together to hand these out...and how many are people thinking
> > of having and also what color.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
57256 From: Roger Tomas <tomasr@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 0:56pm
Subject: Re: Re: Payson relief run this weekend.
Rob,
I appreciate what you have done. You got this whole thing going
and that in itself is a lot.
----------------
Let's talk about some of the logistics. I've heard people offer
up trailers and box trucks. Are we really going to be able to
collect that much stuff in such little time? We don't even seem
to have an accurate list of needed items (which seems to differ
depending on which organization you talk to).
Due to the short time frame we have, we need to keep things as
simple as possible. I'm thinking everyone who wants to participate
should attempt to fill their own Jeep (or other vehicle) with needed
items for an organization of their choosing. But we need to have one
person (Mike?) contact each organization and post a definitive list
of needed items. I'm thinking the organizations to be contacted
should be the Red Cross, the Salvation Army and the Humane Society.
Anything else? The forest service? Once we have the definitive lists,
people can choose which organization they want to donate to and then
seek donations.
This approach helps ensure we provide items that are needed while
allowing club members to work as independently as possible. We
don't want to get bogged down in coordinating things and lots of
unnecessary communication. Other than some up front work to identify
the organization(s) and their needed items, the only other coordinated
activity I see happening is the jeep caravan to Payson. I think we
should meet along the Beeline Highway (aka 87) near Fountain Hills
though I don't know how well that works for folks coming up from
Tucson.
-Roger
g_rob_williams wrote:
>
> I dont have time to all the legwork for this. I like everyone else
> work full time during the day, and I have school mon-thurs evenings.
> I have already been chewed out once for as much time as I'm spending
> on these e-mails trying to clarify what is going on, and getting
> chastized by quite a few of you out there for even trying to do
> this!! I just tried to suggest something I thought would be easy to
> do, and to help out these people. Someone suggested I post it to see
> if there is an interest, and now I am the spearhead for this. I will
> be more than willing to help, but I can't organize it. I talked to
> my mother last night and we will be at the Payson relief site to
> volunteer to help with whatever they need. I still want to do the
> run, and have plenty of donations, but again, I can not organize
> this! -Rob
57257 From: <msa12171@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:58am
Subject: Re: LISTEN UP! Let's ORGANIZE for this weekend... was RE: Re: Payson...
I've talked to Red Croass and trying to reach Salvation Army now. I have a list started. I'll post it as soon as I get in touch with Sal. Army. I have the location to take the items as well.
Mike Anderson
57258 From: <salsaholic602@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:59am
Subject: re:red cross bashing
We should just forget about the red cross at this time, they are the least
important people at this time. all we need them for is to direct us to where
we could send these supplies. c-mon people, times a-waistin.
Anthony Celaya
chaton602@y...
salsaholic602@a...
57259 From: Joe Kearney <Joe-CJ7@j...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:02pm
Subject: Re: LISTEN UP! Let's ORGANIZE for this weekend... was RE: Re: Payson relief run this weekend.
I want to help but I will wait until Thursday or Friday to see what is
needed most! As of right now I can not go up there on Saturday, besides
with my Jeep I would slow everyone down. If possible I would like to help
pack and unpack, I will have to see with the war department.
I agree Joe, we need to be united or we will not look good at all. This is a
great cause and yes we can make a difference.
Also, I will take 2 stickers.
Joe Kearney
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe West" <joe.west@s...>
To: "'msa12171'" <msa12171@a...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 12:44 PM
Subject: LISTEN UP! Let's ORGANIZE for this weekend... was RE: [az_vjc] Re:
Payson relief run this weekend.
> Mike, Robert, et. al...
>
> It is important to remember that providing the WRONG thing is worse than
> providing nothing. It is EXTREMELY important that, if we participate in
> bringing something up to Payson, that it be the RIGHT things... whether
that
> be money or canned dog food or water in 1.5L jugs instead of gallon
jugs...
> whatever it is that we bring, it needs to be exactly what they need or it
> needs to be nothing.... no one needs to have to figure out how to
> disposition a ton of crap (no matter how well intentioned we might be)
that
> we bring up which is not needed.
>
> That being said, Rob has said that he does not want to lead this effort
and
> it appears that Mike has picked up the slack.
>
> Mike... if this is true, it is up to you to:
>
> 1. Make sure we have a good turnout. Can we get 100 Jeeps?
> 2. Make sure we have the latest information on what is needed.
> 3. Make sure that you are in contact with the facility we are going to be
> delivering the items to.
> 4. Set a meeting time and place (I don't see it posted on the run on
> azvjc.org)
> 5. Advertise? Can we get this in a local paper or two? TV?
>
> Once again, we have a chance to make a difference. If the local shelter
> needs money... why not get one hundred Jeeps and each of us bring $10.00
to
> donate?
>
> Mike... if you need help with anything, you let me know. I'll be happy to
> try and give you a hand as best I can.
>
> How about the rest of you heavy hitters in the club? Care to throw your
> weight behind doing something? Without your help, this isn't going to
> happen.
>
> Let's go gang... it will be fun... and I promise:
>
> You ain't felt anything like seeing a caravan of 100 Jeeps rolling down
the
> road...
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Joe West
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: msa12171 [mailto:msa12171@a...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:54 AM
> > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Payson relief run this weekend.
> >
> >
> > I will get the info of what is needed for everyone. I talked to John
> > Holmberg (98 KUPD) and he has mentioned this on the morning radio for
> > us. Also I am posting it on my website (www.azod.com) as well as
> > having the trip report in the magazine (Arizona Outdoorsman). As
> > soon as I get the list of needed items, I will post it for everyone.
> > I can fill my garage with stuff and if needed I can get a trailer or
> > U-haul to take up there. Anyone that wants to help me with all the
> > donations and organizing this, please let me know. Thanks.
> >
> > Mike Anderson
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
57260 From: <salsaholic602@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 9:07am
Subject: LISTEN UP! Let's ORGANIZE for this weekend... was RE: Re: Payson relief
Dude, you are the MAAAAN, way to put it. I'm gonna try to get ahold of the
morning crew at power 92 and see if they can help us out. again, count me in.
I'll bring the "Crispy creams," (and of course the donations I received).
Anthony Celaya
chaton602@y...
salsaholic602@a...
57261 From: <msa12171@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 9:14am
Subject: RELIEF RUN LIST
Here is the list of items needed from the Red Cross and Salvation Army:
WATER ! ! ! (1.5 liter bottles if possible)
leather gloves
goggles
respirators (I have a connection for these)
white cotton socks
hygene products (lip balm, sunscreen, eye drops sepecially along with soap, deoderant, etc.)
granola/trail bars
gatorade
games and toys for all ages
I have the address of the drop off point too. I will set up a meeting time and place once we get a good list of who is coming and who is donating but cannot make the trip. Please contact me if you have items to donate but cannot go on the run and I will get someone to pick them up from you. Please sign up on the list if you intend to go. Plan on being ready at around 7:00 am tenatively.
Thanks-
Mike Anderson
57262 From: Garrison St.Clair <gunslinger@i...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:11pm
Subject: ARRL Arizona Wildfire/Colorado Wildfire report.
FYI
Gunslinger
Gunslinger's First Law: "No good deed goes unpunished."
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, 25 June, 2002 14:50
Subject: ARRL Arizona Wildfire/Colorado Wildfire report.
> Amateurs Support of Arizona Wildfire Response Continues; ARES Stands Down
in
> Colorado
>
> NEWINGTON, CT, Jun 25, 2002--Amateur Radio support of the Arizona wildfire
> response is continuing. Arizona ARRL Section Manager Cliff Hauser, KD6XH,
> reports that there are enough Amateur Radio operators on hand to support
the
> fire-fighting efforts. President Bush has declared parts of the state
federal
> disaster areas. The combined Rodeo-Chediski Fire now has scorched more
than
> 351,000 acres of Arizona pine forest. Upwards of 400 homes and businesses
> have been destroyed, and some 30,000 Arizona residents have been evacuated
as
> a result of the fire. The Salvation Army Team Emergency Radio Network
> (SATERN) has taken on the job of coordinating communications during the
> emergency and has set up stations at Mesa, Winslow and Eager. Hauser said
The
> Salvation Army was taking more workers from the Phoenix area to the
> fire-fighting support areas. Other amateurs are supporting Red Cross
> facilities in Flagstaff, Holbrook and Phoenix. Operators from the Arizona
> Amateur Radio Club's W7IO are staffing the Arizona Emergency Operations
> Center in Phoenix. Hauser reports that Dave Eply, N9CZV, remains in the
now
> mostly evacuated town of Show Low, where the fire was about one-half mile
> away earlier today. According to news reports, firefighters were starting
> backfires in the Show Low vicinity in an effort to stave off disaster.
Eply
> has been handling health-and-welfare traffic for town residents who chose
not
> to leave. To keep nets active around the clock, net control station duties
> are being passed among stations in Phoneix, Mesa and Tucson. In addition
to
> VHF and UHF repeaters, amateurs are maintaining HF nets on 3990 and 7265
kHz.
> An FCC communications emergency has put both frequencies, plus or minus 3
> kHz, off limits to anyone not involved in handling emergency traffic. The
ban
> will remain in effect until lifted. Meanwhile in Colorado, Amateur Radio
> Emergency Service support for the Hayman Fire has concluded. Several
Colorado
> ARES teams spent the past few weeks volunteering their services as needed
to
> local governments and to relief organizations, including the American Red
> Cross and The Salvation Army. As recently as Monday, amateurs continued
their
> support on the south side of the fire. ARRL Colorado SM Jeff Ryan, K0RM,
> reports the Hayman Fire is currently 67% contained, and most evacuated
> residents were allowed back to their homes Sunday.
>
>
57263 From: Bob Jacques <bjacques@m...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:14pm
Subject: Payson Run
I'm in. Our Company is awaiting the list so we can start collecting items,
I vote for early Saturday turnaround. - Bob
57264 From: msa12171 <msa12171@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:18pm
Subject: Re: RELIEF RUN LIST
Also, monetary donations are needed more than anything right now and
will be for a long time. If you can't donate any items, but can help
financially in any way, please do so. Thanks.
--- In az_vjc@y..., msa12171@a... wrote:
> Here is the list of items needed from the Red Cross and Salvation
Army:
>
> WATER ! ! ! (1.5 liter bottles if possible)
> leather gloves
> goggles
> respirators (I have a connection for these)
> white cotton socks
> hygene products (lip balm, sunscreen, eye drops sepecially along
with soap,
> deoderant, etc.)
> granola/trail bars
> gatorade
> games and toys for all ages
>
>
>
> I have the address of the drop off point too. I will set up a
meeting time
> and place once we get a good list of who is coming and who is
donating but
> cannot make the trip. Please contact me if you have items to
donate but
> cannot go on the run and I will get someone to pick them up from
you. Please
> sign up on the list if you intend to go. Plan on being ready at
around 7:00
> am tenatively.
>
> Thanks-
>
> Mike Anderson
57265 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:24pm
Subject: RE: Greens Screaming Foul
I think that is a significant part of it, Roger. Your previous post where
you mentioned the word mixing and terms being used is very much the way the
SC conducts business. Yeah, there are no lawsuits against the USFS by the
SC....but there are legal actions pending....."Sorry sir, you didn't ask me
if there were any legal actions, you just asked about law suits!" LOL
A perfect case in point....on the SC web site, there is a little forest
awareness quiz that you can take (oops, sorry, you COULD take...them removed
the link yesterday after reading my letter). One of the true false
questions was:
Logging helps reduce the risk of forest fires.
The SC answer is: False - The Forest Service has concluded in several
studies that logging greatly increaes the risk and severity of fires.
The "risk of a forest fire" has nothing to do with the number of trees,
underbrush, etc. in an area. IMO, the RISK of a forest fire is based on the
chances of starting a fire. IMO, yes, if you put roads (a result from
logging) into a forest area and people travel on those roads, the chances of
them tossing a butt out the window and starting a fire is certainly
increased. Also, if they are camping, again assuming that they drove in on
a logging road, yes, the risk of starting a fire is certainly higher.
Simply put, if you eliminate man from the equation, the only risk of
starting a forest fire comes from lightning. DUH!
The question should have asked was:
Logging helps reduce the severity of forest fires.
That answer is true....remove the fuel and you will reduce the severity of
the fire. Reduce the severity of the fire and you will more quickly bring
it under control, if that is the desired outcome.
When I asked my wife the above SC question, she replied True....yes...she
said if you log an area, you reduce the risk of fire. I then explained the
part of risk vs. severity. She seemed a bit upset as it appeared to be a
trick question, and indeed it was, IMO. You think you understand the
situation, and then you read the SC answer and you are led down the wrong
path because of word games. Oh, they do it so well!
One other point....when I talk to someone about the "severity" of a forest
fire, what do I mean? Am I referring how BIG and HOT the fire is? That
would certainly make one forest fire more severe than another. Or...when I
speak about the severity of the fire, am I making reference to the loss of
house and home...maybe even the economic impact it has on an area? That
would certainly make one fire much more severe than another fire.
Or....maybe I am referring to the potential for the fire to cause death to
the fire fighters or others (campers, hikers, etc.) in the area. That could
certainly make one fire more severe than another fire.
My point? Just what did the Forest Service mean when they said the
"severity of the fire"?
Words....one has to be careful about what you hear, believe, and what was
"technically" said.
"Did you stop beating your spouse yet?" (answer that one and you are
screwed either way)
TC!
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Tomas [mailto:tomasr@a...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:01 AM
To: Judith Raya
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
All these discussions center around treatment of the wildland-urban
interface. They say nothing about the rest of the forest where the
environmentalists continually push for more wilderness and roadless
designations.
Speak out both sides of their mouths, the environmentalists do. (yoda)
Someone tell me - am I off base here or am I seeing through their
smoke screen?
-Roger
Judith Raya wrote:
>
> Good day from the PCCFMU,
> > The Center for Biological Diversity is wildly flailing about blaming
> > everyone including the state of Arizona for the fires in the White
> > Mountains. These people are so fanatical in their "love" of mother
> earth
> > that they will see her burn rather than admit to their mistakes and
> > allow responsible land and forest management to take place. It is my
> > belief that most of the leaders in the green groups are mentally ill
> and
> > in serious need of deprograming and therapy. Their "love" of the earth
>
> > is not love but an unhealthy obsession. What they essentially do is
> > stalk their earth love and anyone who may have divergent interests or
> > uses for it other than their own. Burning, terrorizing, intimidation,
> > obstruction and litigation are their means to "protect" her ( in
> their
> > sick minds) from those they state would rape and misuse her.
> > It is time to clearly draw the line between good land management
> > practices and science, and the druidic, earth worshiping fanaticism
> that
> > is being foisted upon the people of North America by the green
> > organizations across the country.
> > Sincerely,
> > Glynn Burkhardt
> >
> > Subject:
> > Arizona Fire Update
> > Date:
> > 24 Jun 2002 23:39:09 -0000
> > From:
> > "Center for Biological Diveristy"
> > <center@b...>
> > Reply-To:
> > notice-reply-i8gkwb4r78xmbm@a...
> > To:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > NEWS ADVISORY: Monday, June 24
> > CONTACT: Brian Segee, (520) 623-5252 x308
> > More Information:
> > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> >
> > STATE PRESSURED FOREST SERVICE TO HALT FUELS REDUCTION
> > PROJECT IN RODEO BURN AREA
> >
> > GOVERNOR HULL SCAPEGOATS ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOR LARGEST
> > FIRES IN ARIZONA HISTORY
> >
> > As Arizona faces its largest wildfire in history with
> > hundreds of homes destroyed and thousands of people
> > evacuated from their homes, Governor Jane Hull has
> > seized upon the tragedy to advance her own anti-environmental
> > agenda: On Sunday, June 23rd, Hull appeared on television
> > to blame environmentalists for the fire.
> >
> > The Governor predictably failed to explain how environmentalists
> > were to blame for the fires. Additionally, the Governor
> > failed to mention 1) that a prescribed fire set by
> > the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuel loads within
> > the burned area was stopped by state intervention,
> > 2) the vast majority of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > Forests have been previously logged by the U.S. Forest
> > Service, 3) a recent report by the Government Accounting
> > Office (GAO) found that only 1% of Forest Service fuel
> > reduction projects were challenged with appeals or
> > lawsuits, and 4) a second recent report by the GAO
> > found that the Forest Service has misdirected funds
> > from its massive fuels reduction budget away from the
> > protection of rural communities threatened by fire.
> >
> >
> > The Los Angeles Times recently reported that a prescribed
> > fire set by the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuels
> > in what is now the Rodeo-Chediski fire was stopped
> > by unwarranted intervention by state agencies:
> >
> > "When controlled burns were set recently in the Apache
> > Sitgreaves National Forest, where the Rodeo fire now
> > rages, nearby residents complained to state air quality
> > officials about the smoke. The state pressured Forest
> > Service officials to extinguish the blazes prematurely,
> > Anderson (planner on the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > Forest) said. "Other plans to start controlled burns
> > have been blocked by litigation, he said." (17 Blazes
> > Charring the West, Los Angeles Times, 6-23-02).
> >
> > The Governor's scapegoating of environmentalists is
> > fundamentally inaccurate. The Center for Biological
> > Diversity (CBD), Sierra Club, Southwest Forest Alliance
> > and other environmental organizations have long supported
> > the use of both prescribed fire and thinning of small-diameter
> > trees as the most effective methods to reduce fire
> > danger within Southwestern ponderosa pine forests.
> > Ironically, CBD sits on Governor's Forest Health/Fire
> > Plan Advisory Committee, a group appointed by Jane
> > Hull to advise governor on community protection and
> > forest restoration issues and to make recommendations
> > on where to spend National Fire Plan funds. We also
> > are on Senator Bingaman's (D-NM) Community Forest Restoration
> > Program Advisory Committee, which is charged with distribution
> > of $ 5 million annually to rural communities for forest
> > restoration and community protection.
> >
> > "The Governor is opportunistically and cynically using
> > this on-going tragedy to further an anti-environmental
> > agenda," stated Brian Segee with CBD. "Not only do
> > we strongly support community protection efforts such
> > as wildland-urban interface treatments, prescribed
> > burning and small-diameter thinning, we are deeply
> > involved in on-going collaborative and governmental
> > efforts to make such goals a reality."
> >
> > Independent studies conducted by the federal government
> > also directly contradict charges that environmental
> > organizations are preventing needed fuels reduction
> > projects from being completed. As stated in an August
> > 2001 report by the Government Accounting Office (GAO),
> > an independent investigative branch of Congress:
> >
> > "In summary, as of July 18, 2001, the Forest Service
> > has completed the necessary environmental analysis
> > and had decided to implement 1,671 hazardous fuel reduction
> > projects in fiscal year 2001. Of these projects, 20
> > (about 1 percent) had been appealed and none had been
> > litigated. Appellants included environmental groups,
> > recreation groups, private industry interests, and
> > individuals."
> >
> > Under the National Fire Plan, passed in the wake of
> > 2000's intense fire season, the Forest Service and
> > other federal agencies were given over $2 billion
> > to thin brush and small-diameter trees, with an emphasis
> > on community protection. GAO research has concluded
> > that the Forest Service could not account for how this
> > money was being spent. In a January 2002 GAO report
> > entitled "Severe Wildland Fires: Leadership and Accountability
> > Needed to Reduce Risks to Communities and Resources,"
> > it is stated:
> >
> > "Over a year after the Congress substantially increased
> > funds to reduce hazardous fuels, the federal effort
> > still lacks clearly defined and effective leadership
> > . . .it is not possible to determine if the $796 million
> > appropriated for hazardous fuels reduction in fiscal
> > years 2001 and 2002 is targeted to the communities
> > and other areas at highest risk of severe wildland
> > fires."
> >
> > Finally, forgotten in the Governor's continued and
> > escalating attack against environmentalists is the
> > fact that almost all of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > Forests where the two fires are burning has been intensively
> > logged. Almost no area along the relatively flat and
> > easily accessible Mogollon Rim has been spared from
> > logging.
> >
> > For more information,
> > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> >
> > (end)
> >
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57266 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:29pm
Subject: road closures
I noticed a list of road closures in the paper today (a friend had a page
open and I was looking over their shoulder).
Does anyone really know if the caravan can actually get through. I talked
to a MCSO possee member and they had road blocks up this weekend to keep
people out.
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
57267 From: <msa12171@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 9:29am
Subject: Fwd: RELIEF RUN LIST
Add these to the list I just sent out.
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 20:25:45 -0000
From: "graymatterwj" graymatterwj@y...
To: msa12171@a...
Subject: Re: RELIEF RUN LIST
In-Reply-To: a7.22879432.2a4a290a@a...
User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82
Please add the following to the list:
I just got off the phone with the payson humane society. They need
the following items: bleach, washing detergent, dishwashing
detergent, cat litter, and canned cat and dog food. They don't need
bagged dog food. They will be open on saturday and are located on
812 S. Mclane in payson. We should put this as a stop on our run.
Brian aka Gray Matter
--- In az_vjc@y..., msa12171@a... wrote:
> Here is the list of items needed from the Red Cross and Salvation
Army:
>
> WATER ! ! ! (1.5 liter bottles if possible)
> leather gloves
> goggles
> respirators (I have a connection for these)
> white cotton socks
> hygene products (lip balm, sunscreen, eye drops sepecially along
with soap,
> deoderant, etc.)
> granola/trail bars
> gatorade
> games and toys for all ages
>
>
>
> I have the address of the drop off point too. I will set up a
meeting time
> and place once we get a good list of who is coming and who is
donating but
> cannot make the trip. Please contact me if you have items to
donate but
> cannot go on the run and I will get someone to pick them up from
you. Please
> sign up on the list if you intend to go. Plan on being ready at
around 7:00
> am tenatively.
>
> Thanks-
>
> Mike Anderson
57268 From: roy95yj <roy95yj@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:34pm
Subject: Re: Payson relief run this weekend.
"I just got off the phone with the payson humane society. They need
the following items:
bleach, washing detergent, dishwashing
detergent, cat litter, and canned cat and dog food. They don't need
bagged dog food. "
Brian aka Gray Matter
Brian"GrayMatter",
I'll be more than happy to bring some of these items.
So list my YJ as relief for the animals "Payson Humane society".
I have already taken socks, soap, and other items to work. So now it
time for the pets.
I 'm looking forward saturday, this makes me proud to be a member of
the AZVJC.
Roy
57269 From: parajeeper02 <parajeeper02@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:36pm
Subject: Re: road closures
June 25, 2002 12:35:13
Road closures
• Arizona 260 is closed from Show Low to Hon Dah and from Show Low to
Star Valley.
• Arizona 377 is closed from Holbrook to Heber.
• Arizona 277 is closed from Snowflake to Heber.
• Arizona 77 is closed about five miles north of Show Low.
• U.S. 60 is closed south of Show Low to the Arizona 73 junction and
north of Show Low to the turnoff to Little Mormon Lake.
National Forest closures
• Prescott National Forest, Apache-Sitgreaves National Forests and
Coronado National Forest are closed to public access.
• Coconino National Forest and Kaibab National Forest have closed
some areas. The most recent closure was Blue Ridge Reservoir, about
50 miles southeast of Flagstaff.
Evacuations
Show Low, Pinetop-Lakeside, Clay Springs, Linden, Heber, Overgaard,
Aripine and Forest Lakes. Total: About 32,000 people.
Red Cross hotline
Information for people living in the affected area or seeking
information:
• The American Red Cross has established a hotline for inquiries from
both evacuees and concerned family members at 1-877-547-3407. This
hotline replaces all previous numbers.
How you can help
For cash donations:
• American Red Cross National Disaster Relief Fund (general relief
fund), 1-800-HELP-NOW; the Salvation Army, (602) 267-4100; the
Arizona Humane Society Wildfire Rescue Fund, 1521 W. Dobbins Road,
Phoenix, AZ 85041; Safeway Food and Drug stores.
For other donations:
• The Salvation Army, 2707 E. Van Buren St.; any Bashas' or Food City
location, where donations will be matched by the store; any Popular
Outdoor Outfitters store.
• Donations can be dropped at all Glendale Fire Stations. Their "wish
list" includes diapers, powdered formula, toiletries for children and
adults, antacids, lip balm, toilet paper, sunscreen, white socks,
clothing, six packs of soda and easy-to-fix foods, such as canned
soup, macaroni and cheese and peanut butter. Items can be dropped off
through Saturday.
Locations: 7505 N. 55th Ave., 6850 W. Bethany Home Road, 14061 N.
59th Ave., 4439 W. Peoria Ave., 6255 W. Union Hills Road, 6801 W.
Deer Valley Road, 9658 N. 59th Ave.
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...> wrote:
> I noticed a list of road closures in the paper today (a friend had
a page
> open and I was looking over their shoulder).
>
> Does anyone really know if the caravan can actually get through. I
talked
> to a MCSO possee member and they had road blocks up this weekend to
keep
> people out.
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
57270 From: graymatterwj <graymatterwj@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:44pm
Subject: Re: Payson relief run this weekend.
Roy:
I am hitting costco on the way home this week and loading up! When I
called the humane society it sounded like a zoo!
Brian aka Gray Matter
--- In az_vjc@y..., "roy95yj" <roy95yj@a...> wrote:
> "I just got off the phone with the payson humane society. They need
> the following items:
> bleach, washing detergent, dishwashing
> detergent, cat litter, and canned cat and dog food. They don't need
> bagged dog food. "
> Brian aka Gray Matter
>
>
>
> Brian"GrayMatter",
> I'll be more than happy to bring some of these items.
> So list my YJ as relief for the animals "Payson Humane society".
> I have already taken socks, soap, and other items to work. So now
it
> time for the pets.
>
>
> I 'm looking forward saturday, this makes me proud to be a member
of
> the AZVJC.
>
> Roy
57271 From: David Withers <dwithers@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:00pm
Subject: RE: Re: Payson relief run this weekend.
Very well put
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Tomas [mailto:tomasr@a...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 12:56 PM
To: g_rob_williams
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; msa12171
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Payson relief run this weekend.
Rob,
I appreciate what you have done. You got this whole thing going and
that in itself is a lot.
----------------
Let's talk about some of the logistics. I've heard people offer up
trailers and box trucks. Are we really going to be able to collect that
much stuff in such little time? We don't even seem to have an accurate
list of needed items (which seems to differ depending on which
organization you talk to).
Due to the short time frame we have, we need to keep things as simple as
possible. I'm thinking everyone who wants to participate should attempt
to fill their own Jeep (or other vehicle) with needed items for an
organization of their choosing. But we need to have one person (Mike?)
contact each organization and post a definitive list of needed items.
I'm thinking the organizations to be contacted should be the Red Cross,
the Salvation Army and the Humane Society. Anything else? The forest
service? Once we have the definitive lists, people can choose which
organization they want to donate to and then seek donations.
This approach helps ensure we provide items that are needed while
allowing club members to work as independently as possible. We don't
want to get bogged down in coordinating things and lots of unnecessary
communication. Other than some up front work to identify the
organization(s) and their needed items, the only other coordinated
activity I see happening is the jeep caravan to Payson. I think we
should meet along the Beeline Highway (aka 87) near Fountain Hills
though I don't know how well that works for folks coming up from Tucson.
-Roger
g_rob_williams wrote:
>
> I dont have time to all the legwork for this. I like everyone else
> work full time during the day, and I have school mon-thurs evenings. I
> have already been chewed out once for as much time as I'm spending on
> these e-mails trying to clarify what is going on, and getting
> chastized by quite a few of you out there for even trying to do this!!
> I just tried to suggest something I thought would be easy to do, and
> to help out these people. Someone suggested I post it to see if there
> is an interest, and now I am the spearhead for this. I will be more
> than willing to help, but I can't organize it. I talked to my mother
> last night and we will be at the Payson relief site to volunteer to
> help with whatever they need. I still want to do the run, and have
> plenty of donations, but again, I can not organize
> this! -Rob
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57272 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:10pm
Subject: RE: fire run decal info.....
Make that two for me in black.
Joey K
93YJ
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Tomas [mailto:tomasr@a...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 12:15 PM
To: sign_xpressions
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] fire run decal info.....
I'd buy two in white.
-Roger
sign_xpressions wrote:
>
> seems to be some intrest in doing these, so let me tell you alittle
> info...the stickers are die cut decals...which is vinyl...the size is
> aprox. 4 1/2 inches tall by 5 1/2 inches at the widest part...being a
> die cut decal...the color of the sticker is the color of the
> vinyl...the parts in the image that are white will be the color of
> what they are applied to..(i.e. if you have a red jeep they will be
> red) ..this seem to be about as small as i can get them, and still get
> a good weeding with them (having my jeep like vehicle in the middle).
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~aduncanphotos/Images/Fire1.jpg
>
> i can't make them in a full color image cause that would take too much
> time...and i would need to do a huge run of them because we don't do
> that in house.
>
> for a sticker of this size they would sell for about the $5.00 range
> with the level of detail in them.....so the next question would be how
> much to charge with the profits going to the red cross or someone of
> that nature...i know what the profit margin of the sticker is so if we
> charged the $5.00 rate..we will get some money for the red cross...if
> people want to pay more i will just give the extra also.
>
> thinking of making some in black (like the image) some in white, and a
> few in red.....so my next question is how would we get together to
> hand these out...and how many are people thinking of having and also
> what color.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57273 From: <itsajeepthing28@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 10:11am
Subject: Re: possible fire run decal?????
I think its a great idea.... However, really believe that it should be
Rodeo-Chedeski....
just my 2 cents...
Gary Oglesby
57274 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:13pm
Subject: [FS] Top For TJ Wanted
Price:
Contact: dandog12@earthlink.net
I need a black top for my 2000 TJ
Daniel Hopkins
57275 From: Jon Loveless-DSL <jloveless@d...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:14pm
Subject: 12" Magnetic decals
I still have 4 of the 12 magnetic decals that I retrieved from Hunter Offroad. If you want to claim them or buy them give a shout.
Jon
Jon Loveless
480-816-0963
jloveless@directvinternet.com
jloveless@delphi-tech.com
57276 From: FredTJ <fredtj@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:27pm
Subject: Re: Greens Screaming Foul
But the only areas that need "management" is the forest-urban boundaries. No
other parts of the forest need management. I taped an interesting thing last
night ( on the news ). One of the FS people were saying how the public icon,
Smokey the Bear, you know "only you can prevent forest fires" has actually
contributed to the problem, by instilling in people the thought that all
forest fires are bad.
They are NOT.... The forest needs fire. The only thing that is bad, or has
the potential to be bad, is fire on the forest-urban boundaries where
property and/or life is risked. This problem needs to be addressed,
certainly, and I'm sure that it will now. Thinning is require on the
boundaries, and I'm sure that soon, we'll see that happen. Logging
wilderness does not need to happen.
The primary reason that the forest are in the shape that they are today
(overgrown, too much fuel, etc), is a near century old policy of putting out
every little fire that starts.
If you look back at the Yellowstone fire, and how, "awful" everyone thought
it was. Well the Park is now healther (by virtually everyones vision) than
it's probably ever been in remembered history. The Park was really fire
starved. The FS is learning, and we are learning the hard way.
Why do you think that fire is bad ??
Regarding thinning. Logging, IMHO, is not the answer. The parts that need
thinning, again, on the forest-urban boudaries, are the trees that are way
over grown and way too thick. These are the smaller trees, not the larger
trees. The FS person last night, said the same thing, which surprised me
somewhat, as the timber industry is one of the main sources of income for
the FS and the timber industry is the one that wants into the deeper
wilderness areas and they want the big trees. So, logging won't remove the
fuel (which is the small trees, thick underbrush, etc). Logging will simply
remove the larger trees. It's all about money, and really nothing else. The
logging companies want me (through my taxes) to pay for the roads (that the
FS would build) so they can get to my (the National Forest belongs to us
all, right) forest, so that they can cut down my trees and make money for
themselves, not paying me a penny in return. To further all insult, much of
the timber would be sold overseas (Japan is on of the primary consumers of
American raw timber) and therefore the resource, or much of it, doesn't even
stay here.
The fires doesn't hurt the forest, even the really, really, bad ones, the
crown fires where old trees are killed, like the current fire. The forest
will recover and it will be healther because of it. The ideal thing is not
to have crown fires, as then there is nothing for the forest to recover
from. Regular burning doesn't hurt the trees at all, and it keeps everything
cleaned out. Crown fires do kill mature trees (as does logging), and in
those cases the forest does have to recover and that does take time. But
recover it will. Again, simply look a Yellowstone. Now, if we don't continue
to screw up, that forest will remain healthy on it's own, but it must be
allowed to burn when fires happen, except on the forest-urban boundaries.
Go back 150 years ago, or 200 years ago, before there was massive logging,
before every fire was being attacked. The forest were exteremely healty.
We've screwed it up. The FS service says the same thing. The forest has been
screwed up only during the last 100 years (almost) of us trying to "protect"
it. Smokey the Bear did more than anyone every thought that he would ;)
Best,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...>
To: "Judith Raya" <jraya@a...>
Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
> All these discussions center around treatment of the wildland-urban
> interface. They say nothing about the rest of the forest where the
> environmentalists continually push for more wilderness and roadless
> designations.
>
> Speak out both sides of their mouths, the environmentalists do. (yoda)
>
> Someone tell me - am I off base here or am I seeing through their
> smoke screen?
>
> -Roger
>
> Judith Raya wrote:
> >
> > Good day from the PCCFMU,
> > > The Center for Biological Diversity is wildly flailing about blaming
> > > everyone including the state of Arizona for the fires in the White
> > > Mountains. These people are so fanatical in their "love" of mother
> > earth
> > > that they will see her burn rather than admit to their mistakes and
> > > allow responsible land and forest management to take place. It is my
> > > belief that most of the leaders in the green groups are mentally ill
> > and
> > > in serious need of deprograming and therapy. Their "love" of the earth
> >
> > > is not love but an unhealthy obsession. What they essentially do is
> > > stalk their earth love and anyone who may have divergent interests or
> > > uses for it other than their own. Burning, terrorizing, intimidation,
> > > obstruction and litigation are their means to "protect" her ( in
> > their
> > > sick minds) from those they state would rape and misuse her.
> > > It is time to clearly draw the line between good land management
> > > practices and science, and the druidic, earth worshiping fanaticism
> > that
> > > is being foisted upon the people of North America by the green
> > > organizations across the country.
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Glynn Burkhardt
> > >
> > > Subject:
> > > Arizona Fire Update
> > > Date:
> > > 24 Jun 2002 23:39:09 -0000
> > > From:
> > > "Center for Biological Diveristy"
> > > <center@b...>
> > > Reply-To:
> > > notice-reply-i8gkwb4r78xmbm@a...
> > > To:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > NEWS ADVISORY: Monday, June 24
> > > CONTACT: Brian Segee, (520) 623-5252 x308
> > > More Information:
> > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > >
> > > STATE PRESSURED FOREST SERVICE TO HALT FUELS REDUCTION
> > > PROJECT IN RODEO BURN AREA
> > >
> > > GOVERNOR HULL SCAPEGOATS ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOR LARGEST
> > > FIRES IN ARIZONA HISTORY
> > >
> > > As Arizona faces its largest wildfire in history with
> > > hundreds of homes destroyed and thousands of people
> > > evacuated from their homes, Governor Jane Hull has
> > > seized upon the tragedy to advance her own anti-environmental
> > > agenda: On Sunday, June 23rd, Hull appeared on television
> > > to blame environmentalists for the fire.
> > >
> > > The Governor predictably failed to explain how environmentalists
> > > were to blame for the fires. Additionally, the Governor
> > > failed to mention 1) that a prescribed fire set by
> > > the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuel loads within
> > > the burned area was stopped by state intervention,
> > > 2) the vast majority of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > Forests have been previously logged by the U.S. Forest
> > > Service, 3) a recent report by the Government Accounting
> > > Office (GAO) found that only 1% of Forest Service fuel
> > > reduction projects were challenged with appeals or
> > > lawsuits, and 4) a second recent report by the GAO
> > > found that the Forest Service has misdirected funds
> > > from its massive fuels reduction budget away from the
> > > protection of rural communities threatened by fire.
> > >
> > >
> > > The Los Angeles Times recently reported that a prescribed
> > > fire set by the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuels
> > > in what is now the Rodeo-Chediski fire was stopped
> > > by unwarranted intervention by state agencies:
> > >
> > > "When controlled burns were set recently in the Apache
> > > Sitgreaves National Forest, where the Rodeo fire now
> > > rages, nearby residents complained to state air quality
> > > officials about the smoke. The state pressured Forest
> > > Service officials to extinguish the blazes prematurely,
> > > Anderson (planner on the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > Forest) said. "Other plans to start controlled burns
> > > have been blocked by litigation, he said." (17 Blazes
> > > Charring the West, Los Angeles Times, 6-23-02).
> > >
> > > The Governor's scapegoating of environmentalists is
> > > fundamentally inaccurate. The Center for Biological
> > > Diversity (CBD), Sierra Club, Southwest Forest Alliance
> > > and other environmental organizations have long supported
> > > the use of both prescribed fire and thinning of small-diameter
> > > trees as the most effective methods to reduce fire
> > > danger within Southwestern ponderosa pine forests.
> > > Ironically, CBD sits on Governor's Forest Health/Fire
> > > Plan Advisory Committee, a group appointed by Jane
> > > Hull to advise governor on community protection and
> > > forest restoration issues and to make recommendations
> > > on where to spend National Fire Plan funds. We also
> > > are on Senator Bingaman's (D-NM) Community Forest Restoration
> > > Program Advisory Committee, which is charged with distribution
> > > of $ 5 million annually to rural communities for forest
> > > restoration and community protection.
> > >
> > > "The Governor is opportunistically and cynically using
> > > this on-going tragedy to further an anti-environmental
> > > agenda," stated Brian Segee with CBD. "Not only do
> > > we strongly support community protection efforts such
> > > as wildland-urban interface treatments, prescribed
> > > burning and small-diameter thinning, we are deeply
> > > involved in on-going collaborative and governmental
> > > efforts to make such goals a reality."
> > >
> > > Independent studies conducted by the federal government
> > > also directly contradict charges that environmental
> > > organizations are preventing needed fuels reduction
> > > projects from being completed. As stated in an August
> > > 2001 report by the Government Accounting Office (GAO),
> > > an independent investigative branch of Congress:
> > >
> > > "In summary, as of July 18, 2001, the Forest Service
> > > has completed the necessary environmental analysis
> > > and had decided to implement 1,671 hazardous fuel reduction
> > > projects in fiscal year 2001. Of these projects, 20
> > > (about 1 percent) had been appealed and none had been
> > > litigated. Appellants included environmental groups,
> > > recreation groups, private industry interests, and
> > > individuals."
> > >
> > > Under the National Fire Plan, passed in the wake of
> > > 2000's intense fire season, the Forest Service and
> > > other federal agencies were given over $2 billion
> > > to thin brush and small-diameter trees, with an emphasis
> > > on community protection. GAO research has concluded
> > > that the Forest Service could not account for how this
> > > money was being spent. In a January 2002 GAO report
> > > entitled "Severe Wildland Fires: Leadership and Accountability
> > > Needed to Reduce Risks to Communities and Resources,"
> > > it is stated:
> > >
> > > "Over a year after the Congress substantially increased
> > > funds to reduce hazardous fuels, the federal effort
> > > still lacks clearly defined and effective leadership
> > > . . .it is not possible to determine if the $796 million
> > > appropriated for hazardous fuels reduction in fiscal
> > > years 2001 and 2002 is targeted to the communities
> > > and other areas at highest risk of severe wildland
> > > fires."
> > >
> > > Finally, forgotten in the Governor's continued and
> > > escalating attack against environmentalists is the
> > > fact that almost all of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > Forests where the two fires are burning has been intensively
> > > logged. Almost no area along the relatively flat and
> > > easily accessible Mogollon Rim has been spared from
> > > logging.
> > >
> > > For more information,
> > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > >
> > > (end)
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
57252 From: my2001tj <my2001tj@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 0:29pm
Subject: Fire run sticker
I will take two in black
Dean
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
57253 From: pebble007 <jawooten@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 0:32pm
Subject: Re: OT: Anyone Skydive?
Robert and Joe,
There is a great place out in Buckeye that I and
several of my friends went to for our first jumps ( I still only have
one:(. They were great and reasonably priced. Maybe we could get a
group run together as the price drops with more jumpers.
Josh
99 TJ
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> Robert,
>
> I'm game for learning to skydive with you... keep me posted on what
you find
> out.
> I just LOVE knocking off all these "before I die I really want
to..." kinds
> of issues.
> Please let me know what you find out.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Joe West
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rubberside_up309 [mailto:rubberside_up309@y...]
> > Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 4:38 PM
> > To: az_vjc@y...
> > Subject: [az_vjc] OT: Anyone Skydive?
> >
> >
> > I want to get a jump as a birthday gift for my girlfriend and
need to
> > know who the best organization to use is. I have no problem going
to
> > Tucson if need be. Sorry for the OT post but I figured with all
the
> > members someone would know a good place to jump, or works for a
> > place. Thanks for any help you can give.
> > Robert
> > Pray for rain skydive till then!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
57254 From: Joe West <joe.west@s...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 0:44pm
Subject: LISTEN UP! Let's ORGANIZE for this weekend... was RE: Re: Payson relief run this weekend.
Mike, Robert, et. al...
It is important to remember that providing the WRONG thing is worse than
providing nothing. It is EXTREMELY important that, if we participate in
bringing something up to Payson, that it be the RIGHT things... whether that
be money or canned dog food or water in 1.5L jugs instead of gallon jugs...
whatever it is that we bring, it needs to be exactly what they need or it
needs to be nothing.... no one needs to have to figure out how to
disposition a ton of crap (no matter how well intentioned we might be) that
we bring up which is not needed.
That being said, Rob has said that he does not want to lead this effort and
it appears that Mike has picked up the slack.
Mike... if this is true, it is up to you to:
1. Make sure we have a good turnout. Can we get 100 Jeeps?
2. Make sure we have the latest information on what is needed.
3. Make sure that you are in contact with the facility we are going to be
delivering the items to.
4. Set a meeting time and place (I don't see it posted on the run on
azvjc.org)
5. Advertise? Can we get this in a local paper or two? TV?
Once again, we have a chance to make a difference. If the local shelter
needs money... why not get one hundred Jeeps and each of us bring $10.00 to
donate?
Mike... if you need help with anything, you let me know. I'll be happy to
try and give you a hand as best I can.
How about the rest of you heavy hitters in the club? Care to throw your
weight behind doing something? Without your help, this isn't going to
happen.
Let's go gang... it will be fun... and I promise:
You ain't felt anything like seeing a caravan of 100 Jeeps rolling down the
road...
Kind Regards,
Joe West
> -----Original Message-----
> From: msa12171 [mailto:msa12171@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:54 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Payson relief run this weekend.
>
>
> I will get the info of what is needed for everyone. I talked to John
> Holmberg (98 KUPD) and he has mentioned this on the morning radio for
> us. Also I am posting it on my website (www.azod.com) as well as
> having the trip report in the magazine (Arizona Outdoorsman). As
> soon as I get the list of needed items, I will post it for everyone.
> I can fill my garage with stuff and if needed I can get a trailer or
> U-haul to take up there. Anyone that wants to help me with all the
> donations and organizing this, please let me know. Thanks.
>
> Mike Anderson
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
57255 From: The Acuna Family <mkacuna@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 0:54pm
Subject: Re: fire run decal info.....
I'll take 3 in red.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...>
To: "sign_xpressions" <sign_xpressions@y...>
Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] fire run decal info.....
> I'd buy two in white.
>
> -Roger
>
> sign_xpressions wrote:
> >
> > seems to be some intrest in doing these, so let me tell you alittle
> > info...the stickers are die cut decals...which is vinyl...the size is
> > aprox. 4 1/2 inches tall by 5 1/2 inches at the widest part...being
> > a die cut decal...the color of the sticker is the color of the
> > vinyl...the parts in the image that are white will be the color of
> > what they are applied to..(i.e. if you have a red jeep they will be
> > red) ..this seem to be about as small as i can get them, and still
> > get a good weeding with them (having my jeep like vehicle in the
> > middle).
> >
> > http://home.earthlink.net/~aduncanphotos/Images/Fire1.jpg
> >
> > i can't make them in a full color image cause that would take too
> > much time...and i would need to do a huge run of them because
> > we don't do that in house.
> >
> > for a sticker of this size they would sell for about the $5.00 range
> > with the level of detail in them.....so the next question would be
> > how much to charge with the profits going to the red cross or
> > someone of that nature...i know what the profit margin of the
> > sticker is so if we charged the $5.00 rate..we will get some
> > money for the red cross...if people want to pay more i will just
> > give the extra also.
> >
> > thinking of making some in black (like the image) some in white,
> > and a few in red.....so my next question is how would we get
> > together to hand these out...and how many are people thinking
> > of having and also what color.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
57256 From: Roger Tomas <tomasr@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 0:56pm
Subject: Re: Re: Payson relief run this weekend.
Rob,
I appreciate what you have done. You got this whole thing going
and that in itself is a lot.
----------------
Let's talk about some of the logistics. I've heard people offer
up trailers and box trucks. Are we really going to be able to
collect that much stuff in such little time? We don't even seem
to have an accurate list of needed items (which seems to differ
depending on which organization you talk to).
Due to the short time frame we have, we need to keep things as
simple as possible. I'm thinking everyone who wants to participate
should attempt to fill their own Jeep (or other vehicle) with needed
items for an organization of their choosing. But we need to have one
person (Mike?) contact each organization and post a definitive list
of needed items. I'm thinking the organizations to be contacted
should be the Red Cross, the Salvation Army and the Humane Society.
Anything else? The forest service? Once we have the definitive lists,
people can choose which organization they want to donate to and then
seek donations.
This approach helps ensure we provide items that are needed while
allowing club members to work as independently as possible. We
don't want to get bogged down in coordinating things and lots of
unnecessary communication. Other than some up front work to identify
the organization(s) and their needed items, the only other coordinated
activity I see happening is the jeep caravan to Payson. I think we
should meet along the Beeline Highway (aka 87) near Fountain Hills
though I don't know how well that works for folks coming up from
Tucson.
-Roger
g_rob_williams wrote:
>
> I dont have time to all the legwork for this. I like everyone else
> work full time during the day, and I have school mon-thurs evenings.
> I have already been chewed out once for as much time as I'm spending
> on these e-mails trying to clarify what is going on, and getting
> chastized by quite a few of you out there for even trying to do
> this!! I just tried to suggest something I thought would be easy to
> do, and to help out these people. Someone suggested I post it to see
> if there is an interest, and now I am the spearhead for this. I will
> be more than willing to help, but I can't organize it. I talked to
> my mother last night and we will be at the Payson relief site to
> volunteer to help with whatever they need. I still want to do the
> run, and have plenty of donations, but again, I can not organize
> this! -Rob
57257 From: <msa12171@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:58am
Subject: Re: LISTEN UP! Let's ORGANIZE for this weekend... was RE: Re: Payson...
I've talked to Red Croass and trying to reach Salvation Army now. I have a list started. I'll post it as soon as I get in touch with Sal. Army. I have the location to take the items as well.
Mike Anderson
57258 From: <salsaholic602@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:59am
Subject: re:red cross bashing
We should just forget about the red cross at this time, they are the least
important people at this time. all we need them for is to direct us to where
we could send these supplies. c-mon people, times a-waistin.
Anthony Celaya
chaton602@y...
salsaholic602@a...
57259 From: Joe Kearney <Joe-CJ7@j...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:02pm
Subject: Re: LISTEN UP! Let's ORGANIZE for this weekend... was RE: Re: Payson relief run this weekend.
I want to help but I will wait until Thursday or Friday to see what is
needed most! As of right now I can not go up there on Saturday, besides
with my Jeep I would slow everyone down. If possible I would like to help
pack and unpack, I will have to see with the war department.
I agree Joe, we need to be united or we will not look good at all. This is a
great cause and yes we can make a difference.
Also, I will take 2 stickers.
Joe Kearney
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe West" <joe.west@s...>
To: "'msa12171'" <msa12171@a...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 12:44 PM
Subject: LISTEN UP! Let's ORGANIZE for this weekend... was RE: [az_vjc] Re:
Payson relief run this weekend.
> Mike, Robert, et. al...
>
> It is important to remember that providing the WRONG thing is worse than
> providing nothing. It is EXTREMELY important that, if we participate in
> bringing something up to Payson, that it be the RIGHT things... whether
that
> be money or canned dog food or water in 1.5L jugs instead of gallon
jugs...
> whatever it is that we bring, it needs to be exactly what they need or it
> needs to be nothing.... no one needs to have to figure out how to
> disposition a ton of crap (no matter how well intentioned we might be)
that
> we bring up which is not needed.
>
> That being said, Rob has said that he does not want to lead this effort
and
> it appears that Mike has picked up the slack.
>
> Mike... if this is true, it is up to you to:
>
> 1. Make sure we have a good turnout. Can we get 100 Jeeps?
> 2. Make sure we have the latest information on what is needed.
> 3. Make sure that you are in contact with the facility we are going to be
> delivering the items to.
> 4. Set a meeting time and place (I don't see it posted on the run on
> azvjc.org)
> 5. Advertise? Can we get this in a local paper or two? TV?
>
> Once again, we have a chance to make a difference. If the local shelter
> needs money... why not get one hundred Jeeps and each of us bring $10.00
to
> donate?
>
> Mike... if you need help with anything, you let me know. I'll be happy to
> try and give you a hand as best I can.
>
> How about the rest of you heavy hitters in the club? Care to throw your
> weight behind doing something? Without your help, this isn't going to
> happen.
>
> Let's go gang... it will be fun... and I promise:
>
> You ain't felt anything like seeing a caravan of 100 Jeeps rolling down
the
> road...
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Joe West
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: msa12171 [mailto:msa12171@a...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:54 AM
> > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Payson relief run this weekend.
> >
> >
> > I will get the info of what is needed for everyone. I talked to John
> > Holmberg (98 KUPD) and he has mentioned this on the morning radio for
> > us. Also I am posting it on my website (www.azod.com) as well as
> > having the trip report in the magazine (Arizona Outdoorsman). As
> > soon as I get the list of needed items, I will post it for everyone.
> > I can fill my garage with stuff and if needed I can get a trailer or
> > U-haul to take up there. Anyone that wants to help me with all the
> > donations and organizing this, please let me know. Thanks.
> >
> > Mike Anderson
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
57260 From: <salsaholic602@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 9:07am
Subject: LISTEN UP! Let's ORGANIZE for this weekend... was RE: Re: Payson relief
Dude, you are the MAAAAN, way to put it. I'm gonna try to get ahold of the
morning crew at power 92 and see if they can help us out. again, count me in.
I'll bring the "Crispy creams," (and of course the donations I received).
Anthony Celaya
chaton602@y...
salsaholic602@a...
57261 From: <msa12171@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 9:14am
Subject: RELIEF RUN LIST
Here is the list of items needed from the Red Cross and Salvation Army:
WATER ! ! ! (1.5 liter bottles if possible)
leather gloves
goggles
respirators (I have a connection for these)
white cotton socks
hygene products (lip balm, sunscreen, eye drops sepecially along with soap, deoderant, etc.)
granola/trail bars
gatorade
games and toys for all ages
I have the address of the drop off point too. I will set up a meeting time and place once we get a good list of who is coming and who is donating but cannot make the trip. Please contact me if you have items to donate but cannot go on the run and I will get someone to pick them up from you. Please sign up on the list if you intend to go. Plan on being ready at around 7:00 am tenatively.
Thanks-
Mike Anderson
57262 From: Garrison St.Clair <gunslinger@i...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:11pm
Subject: ARRL Arizona Wildfire/Colorado Wildfire report.
FYI
Gunslinger
Gunslinger's First Law: "No good deed goes unpunished."
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, 25 June, 2002 14:50
Subject: ARRL Arizona Wildfire/Colorado Wildfire report.
> Amateurs Support of Arizona Wildfire Response Continues; ARES Stands Down
in
> Colorado
>
> NEWINGTON, CT, Jun 25, 2002--Amateur Radio support of the Arizona wildfire
> response is continuing. Arizona ARRL Section Manager Cliff Hauser, KD6XH,
> reports that there are enough Amateur Radio operators on hand to support
the
> fire-fighting efforts. President Bush has declared parts of the state
federal
> disaster areas. The combined Rodeo-Chediski Fire now has scorched more
than
> 351,000 acres of Arizona pine forest. Upwards of 400 homes and businesses
> have been destroyed, and some 30,000 Arizona residents have been evacuated
as
> a result of the fire. The Salvation Army Team Emergency Radio Network
> (SATERN) has taken on the job of coordinating communications during the
> emergency and has set up stations at Mesa, Winslow and Eager. Hauser said
The
> Salvation Army was taking more workers from the Phoenix area to the
> fire-fighting support areas. Other amateurs are supporting Red Cross
> facilities in Flagstaff, Holbrook and Phoenix. Operators from the Arizona
> Amateur Radio Club's W7IO are staffing the Arizona Emergency Operations
> Center in Phoenix. Hauser reports that Dave Eply, N9CZV, remains in the
now
> mostly evacuated town of Show Low, where the fire was about one-half mile
> away earlier today. According to news reports, firefighters were starting
> backfires in the Show Low vicinity in an effort to stave off disaster.
Eply
> has been handling health-and-welfare traffic for town residents who chose
not
> to leave. To keep nets active around the clock, net control station duties
> are being passed among stations in Phoneix, Mesa and Tucson. In addition
to
> VHF and UHF repeaters, amateurs are maintaining HF nets on 3990 and 7265
kHz.
> An FCC communications emergency has put both frequencies, plus or minus 3
> kHz, off limits to anyone not involved in handling emergency traffic. The
ban
> will remain in effect until lifted. Meanwhile in Colorado, Amateur Radio
> Emergency Service support for the Hayman Fire has concluded. Several
Colorado
> ARES teams spent the past few weeks volunteering their services as needed
to
> local governments and to relief organizations, including the American Red
> Cross and The Salvation Army. As recently as Monday, amateurs continued
their
> support on the south side of the fire. ARRL Colorado SM Jeff Ryan, K0RM,
> reports the Hayman Fire is currently 67% contained, and most evacuated
> residents were allowed back to their homes Sunday.
>
>
57263 From: Bob Jacques <bjacques@m...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:14pm
Subject: Payson Run
I'm in. Our Company is awaiting the list so we can start collecting items,
I vote for early Saturday turnaround. - Bob
57264 From: msa12171 <msa12171@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:18pm
Subject: Re: RELIEF RUN LIST
Also, monetary donations are needed more than anything right now and
will be for a long time. If you can't donate any items, but can help
financially in any way, please do so. Thanks.
--- In az_vjc@y..., msa12171@a... wrote:
> Here is the list of items needed from the Red Cross and Salvation
Army:
>
> WATER ! ! ! (1.5 liter bottles if possible)
> leather gloves
> goggles
> respirators (I have a connection for these)
> white cotton socks
> hygene products (lip balm, sunscreen, eye drops sepecially along
with soap,
> deoderant, etc.)
> granola/trail bars
> gatorade
> games and toys for all ages
>
>
>
> I have the address of the drop off point too. I will set up a
meeting time
> and place once we get a good list of who is coming and who is
donating but
> cannot make the trip. Please contact me if you have items to
donate but
> cannot go on the run and I will get someone to pick them up from
you. Please
> sign up on the list if you intend to go. Plan on being ready at
around 7:00
> am tenatively.
>
> Thanks-
>
> Mike Anderson
57265 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:24pm
Subject: RE: Greens Screaming Foul
I think that is a significant part of it, Roger. Your previous post where
you mentioned the word mixing and terms being used is very much the way the
SC conducts business. Yeah, there are no lawsuits against the USFS by the
SC....but there are legal actions pending....."Sorry sir, you didn't ask me
if there were any legal actions, you just asked about law suits!" LOL
A perfect case in point....on the SC web site, there is a little forest
awareness quiz that you can take (oops, sorry, you COULD take...them removed
the link yesterday after reading my letter). One of the true false
questions was:
Logging helps reduce the risk of forest fires.
The SC answer is: False - The Forest Service has concluded in several
studies that logging greatly increaes the risk and severity of fires.
The "risk of a forest fire" has nothing to do with the number of trees,
underbrush, etc. in an area. IMO, the RISK of a forest fire is based on the
chances of starting a fire. IMO, yes, if you put roads (a result from
logging) into a forest area and people travel on those roads, the chances of
them tossing a butt out the window and starting a fire is certainly
increased. Also, if they are camping, again assuming that they drove in on
a logging road, yes, the risk of starting a fire is certainly higher.
Simply put, if you eliminate man from the equation, the only risk of
starting a forest fire comes from lightning. DUH!
The question should have asked was:
Logging helps reduce the severity of forest fires.
That answer is true....remove the fuel and you will reduce the severity of
the fire. Reduce the severity of the fire and you will more quickly bring
it under control, if that is the desired outcome.
When I asked my wife the above SC question, she replied True....yes...she
said if you log an area, you reduce the risk of fire. I then explained the
part of risk vs. severity. She seemed a bit upset as it appeared to be a
trick question, and indeed it was, IMO. You think you understand the
situation, and then you read the SC answer and you are led down the wrong
path because of word games. Oh, they do it so well!
One other point....when I talk to someone about the "severity" of a forest
fire, what do I mean? Am I referring how BIG and HOT the fire is? That
would certainly make one forest fire more severe than another. Or...when I
speak about the severity of the fire, am I making reference to the loss of
house and home...maybe even the economic impact it has on an area? That
would certainly make one fire much more severe than another fire.
Or....maybe I am referring to the potential for the fire to cause death to
the fire fighters or others (campers, hikers, etc.) in the area. That could
certainly make one fire more severe than another fire.
My point? Just what did the Forest Service mean when they said the
"severity of the fire"?
Words....one has to be careful about what you hear, believe, and what was
"technically" said.
"Did you stop beating your spouse yet?" (answer that one and you are
screwed either way)
TC!
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Tomas [mailto:tomasr@a...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:01 AM
To: Judith Raya
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
All these discussions center around treatment of the wildland-urban
interface. They say nothing about the rest of the forest where the
environmentalists continually push for more wilderness and roadless
designations.
Speak out both sides of their mouths, the environmentalists do. (yoda)
Someone tell me - am I off base here or am I seeing through their
smoke screen?
-Roger
Judith Raya wrote:
>
> Good day from the PCCFMU,
> > The Center for Biological Diversity is wildly flailing about blaming
> > everyone including the state of Arizona for the fires in the White
> > Mountains. These people are so fanatical in their "love" of mother
> earth
> > that they will see her burn rather than admit to their mistakes and
> > allow responsible land and forest management to take place. It is my
> > belief that most of the leaders in the green groups are mentally ill
> and
> > in serious need of deprograming and therapy. Their "love" of the earth
>
> > is not love but an unhealthy obsession. What they essentially do is
> > stalk their earth love and anyone who may have divergent interests or
> > uses for it other than their own. Burning, terrorizing, intimidation,
> > obstruction and litigation are their means to "protect" her ( in
> their
> > sick minds) from those they state would rape and misuse her.
> > It is time to clearly draw the line between good land management
> > practices and science, and the druidic, earth worshiping fanaticism
> that
> > is being foisted upon the people of North America by the green
> > organizations across the country.
> > Sincerely,
> > Glynn Burkhardt
> >
> > Subject:
> > Arizona Fire Update
> > Date:
> > 24 Jun 2002 23:39:09 -0000
> > From:
> > "Center for Biological Diveristy"
> > <center@b...>
> > Reply-To:
> > notice-reply-i8gkwb4r78xmbm@a...
> > To:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > NEWS ADVISORY: Monday, June 24
> > CONTACT: Brian Segee, (520) 623-5252 x308
> > More Information:
> > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> >
> > STATE PRESSURED FOREST SERVICE TO HALT FUELS REDUCTION
> > PROJECT IN RODEO BURN AREA
> >
> > GOVERNOR HULL SCAPEGOATS ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOR LARGEST
> > FIRES IN ARIZONA HISTORY
> >
> > As Arizona faces its largest wildfire in history with
> > hundreds of homes destroyed and thousands of people
> > evacuated from their homes, Governor Jane Hull has
> > seized upon the tragedy to advance her own anti-environmental
> > agenda: On Sunday, June 23rd, Hull appeared on television
> > to blame environmentalists for the fire.
> >
> > The Governor predictably failed to explain how environmentalists
> > were to blame for the fires. Additionally, the Governor
> > failed to mention 1) that a prescribed fire set by
> > the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuel loads within
> > the burned area was stopped by state intervention,
> > 2) the vast majority of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > Forests have been previously logged by the U.S. Forest
> > Service, 3) a recent report by the Government Accounting
> > Office (GAO) found that only 1% of Forest Service fuel
> > reduction projects were challenged with appeals or
> > lawsuits, and 4) a second recent report by the GAO
> > found that the Forest Service has misdirected funds
> > from its massive fuels reduction budget away from the
> > protection of rural communities threatened by fire.
> >
> >
> > The Los Angeles Times recently reported that a prescribed
> > fire set by the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuels
> > in what is now the Rodeo-Chediski fire was stopped
> > by unwarranted intervention by state agencies:
> >
> > "When controlled burns were set recently in the Apache
> > Sitgreaves National Forest, where the Rodeo fire now
> > rages, nearby residents complained to state air quality
> > officials about the smoke. The state pressured Forest
> > Service officials to extinguish the blazes prematurely,
> > Anderson (planner on the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > Forest) said. "Other plans to start controlled burns
> > have been blocked by litigation, he said." (17 Blazes
> > Charring the West, Los Angeles Times, 6-23-02).
> >
> > The Governor's scapegoating of environmentalists is
> > fundamentally inaccurate. The Center for Biological
> > Diversity (CBD), Sierra Club, Southwest Forest Alliance
> > and other environmental organizations have long supported
> > the use of both prescribed fire and thinning of small-diameter
> > trees as the most effective methods to reduce fire
> > danger within Southwestern ponderosa pine forests.
> > Ironically, CBD sits on Governor's Forest Health/Fire
> > Plan Advisory Committee, a group appointed by Jane
> > Hull to advise governor on community protection and
> > forest restoration issues and to make recommendations
> > on where to spend National Fire Plan funds. We also
> > are on Senator Bingaman's (D-NM) Community Forest Restoration
> > Program Advisory Committee, which is charged with distribution
> > of $ 5 million annually to rural communities for forest
> > restoration and community protection.
> >
> > "The Governor is opportunistically and cynically using
> > this on-going tragedy to further an anti-environmental
> > agenda," stated Brian Segee with CBD. "Not only do
> > we strongly support community protection efforts such
> > as wildland-urban interface treatments, prescribed
> > burning and small-diameter thinning, we are deeply
> > involved in on-going collaborative and governmental
> > efforts to make such goals a reality."
> >
> > Independent studies conducted by the federal government
> > also directly contradict charges that environmental
> > organizations are preventing needed fuels reduction
> > projects from being completed. As stated in an August
> > 2001 report by the Government Accounting Office (GAO),
> > an independent investigative branch of Congress:
> >
> > "In summary, as of July 18, 2001, the Forest Service
> > has completed the necessary environmental analysis
> > and had decided to implement 1,671 hazardous fuel reduction
> > projects in fiscal year 2001. Of these projects, 20
> > (about 1 percent) had been appealed and none had been
> > litigated. Appellants included environmental groups,
> > recreation groups, private industry interests, and
> > individuals."
> >
> > Under the National Fire Plan, passed in the wake of
> > 2000's intense fire season, the Forest Service and
> > other federal agencies were given over $2 billion
> > to thin brush and small-diameter trees, with an emphasis
> > on community protection. GAO research has concluded
> > that the Forest Service could not account for how this
> > money was being spent. In a January 2002 GAO report
> > entitled "Severe Wildland Fires: Leadership and Accountability
> > Needed to Reduce Risks to Communities and Resources,"
> > it is stated:
> >
> > "Over a year after the Congress substantially increased
> > funds to reduce hazardous fuels, the federal effort
> > still lacks clearly defined and effective leadership
> > . . .it is not possible to determine if the $796 million
> > appropriated for hazardous fuels reduction in fiscal
> > years 2001 and 2002 is targeted to the communities
> > and other areas at highest risk of severe wildland
> > fires."
> >
> > Finally, forgotten in the Governor's continued and
> > escalating attack against environmentalists is the
> > fact that almost all of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > Forests where the two fires are burning has been intensively
> > logged. Almost no area along the relatively flat and
> > easily accessible Mogollon Rim has been spared from
> > logging.
> >
> > For more information,
> > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> >
> > (end)
> >
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57266 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:29pm
Subject: road closures
I noticed a list of road closures in the paper today (a friend had a page
open and I was looking over their shoulder).
Does anyone really know if the caravan can actually get through. I talked
to a MCSO possee member and they had road blocks up this weekend to keep
people out.
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
57267 From: <msa12171@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 9:29am
Subject: Fwd: RELIEF RUN LIST
Add these to the list I just sent out.
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 20:25:45 -0000
From: "graymatterwj" graymatterwj@y...
To: msa12171@a...
Subject: Re: RELIEF RUN LIST
In-Reply-To: a7.22879432.2a4a290a@a...
User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82
Please add the following to the list:
I just got off the phone with the payson humane society. They need
the following items: bleach, washing detergent, dishwashing
detergent, cat litter, and canned cat and dog food. They don't need
bagged dog food. They will be open on saturday and are located on
812 S. Mclane in payson. We should put this as a stop on our run.
Brian aka Gray Matter
--- In az_vjc@y..., msa12171@a... wrote:
> Here is the list of items needed from the Red Cross and Salvation
Army:
>
> WATER ! ! ! (1.5 liter bottles if possible)
> leather gloves
> goggles
> respirators (I have a connection for these)
> white cotton socks
> hygene products (lip balm, sunscreen, eye drops sepecially along
with soap,
> deoderant, etc.)
> granola/trail bars
> gatorade
> games and toys for all ages
>
>
>
> I have the address of the drop off point too. I will set up a
meeting time
> and place once we get a good list of who is coming and who is
donating but
> cannot make the trip. Please contact me if you have items to
donate but
> cannot go on the run and I will get someone to pick them up from
you. Please
> sign up on the list if you intend to go. Plan on being ready at
around 7:00
> am tenatively.
>
> Thanks-
>
> Mike Anderson
57268 From: roy95yj <roy95yj@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:34pm
Subject: Re: Payson relief run this weekend.
"I just got off the phone with the payson humane society. They need
the following items:
bleach, washing detergent, dishwashing
detergent, cat litter, and canned cat and dog food. They don't need
bagged dog food. "
Brian aka Gray Matter
Brian"GrayMatter",
I'll be more than happy to bring some of these items.
So list my YJ as relief for the animals "Payson Humane society".
I have already taken socks, soap, and other items to work. So now it
time for the pets.
I 'm looking forward saturday, this makes me proud to be a member of
the AZVJC.
Roy
57269 From: parajeeper02 <parajeeper02@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:36pm
Subject: Re: road closures
June 25, 2002 12:35:13
Road closures
• Arizona 260 is closed from Show Low to Hon Dah and from Show Low to
Star Valley.
• Arizona 377 is closed from Holbrook to Heber.
• Arizona 277 is closed from Snowflake to Heber.
• Arizona 77 is closed about five miles north of Show Low.
• U.S. 60 is closed south of Show Low to the Arizona 73 junction and
north of Show Low to the turnoff to Little Mormon Lake.
National Forest closures
• Prescott National Forest, Apache-Sitgreaves National Forests and
Coronado National Forest are closed to public access.
• Coconino National Forest and Kaibab National Forest have closed
some areas. The most recent closure was Blue Ridge Reservoir, about
50 miles southeast of Flagstaff.
Evacuations
Show Low, Pinetop-Lakeside, Clay Springs, Linden, Heber, Overgaard,
Aripine and Forest Lakes. Total: About 32,000 people.
Red Cross hotline
Information for people living in the affected area or seeking
information:
• The American Red Cross has established a hotline for inquiries from
both evacuees and concerned family members at 1-877-547-3407. This
hotline replaces all previous numbers.
How you can help
For cash donations:
• American Red Cross National Disaster Relief Fund (general relief
fund), 1-800-HELP-NOW; the Salvation Army, (602) 267-4100; the
Arizona Humane Society Wildfire Rescue Fund, 1521 W. Dobbins Road,
Phoenix, AZ 85041; Safeway Food and Drug stores.
For other donations:
• The Salvation Army, 2707 E. Van Buren St.; any Bashas' or Food City
location, where donations will be matched by the store; any Popular
Outdoor Outfitters store.
• Donations can be dropped at all Glendale Fire Stations. Their "wish
list" includes diapers, powdered formula, toiletries for children and
adults, antacids, lip balm, toilet paper, sunscreen, white socks,
clothing, six packs of soda and easy-to-fix foods, such as canned
soup, macaroni and cheese and peanut butter. Items can be dropped off
through Saturday.
Locations: 7505 N. 55th Ave., 6850 W. Bethany Home Road, 14061 N.
59th Ave., 4439 W. Peoria Ave., 6255 W. Union Hills Road, 6801 W.
Deer Valley Road, 9658 N. 59th Ave.
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...> wrote:
> I noticed a list of road closures in the paper today (a friend had
a page
> open and I was looking over their shoulder).
>
> Does anyone really know if the caravan can actually get through. I
talked
> to a MCSO possee member and they had road blocks up this weekend to
keep
> people out.
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
57270 From: graymatterwj <graymatterwj@y...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:44pm
Subject: Re: Payson relief run this weekend.
Roy:
I am hitting costco on the way home this week and loading up! When I
called the humane society it sounded like a zoo!
Brian aka Gray Matter
--- In az_vjc@y..., "roy95yj" <roy95yj@a...> wrote:
> "I just got off the phone with the payson humane society. They need
> the following items:
> bleach, washing detergent, dishwashing
> detergent, cat litter, and canned cat and dog food. They don't need
> bagged dog food. "
> Brian aka Gray Matter
>
>
>
> Brian"GrayMatter",
> I'll be more than happy to bring some of these items.
> So list my YJ as relief for the animals "Payson Humane society".
> I have already taken socks, soap, and other items to work. So now
it
> time for the pets.
>
>
> I 'm looking forward saturday, this makes me proud to be a member
of
> the AZVJC.
>
> Roy
57271 From: David Withers <dwithers@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:00pm
Subject: RE: Re: Payson relief run this weekend.
Very well put
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Tomas [mailto:tomasr@a...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 12:56 PM
To: g_rob_williams
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; msa12171
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Payson relief run this weekend.
Rob,
I appreciate what you have done. You got this whole thing going and
that in itself is a lot.
----------------
Let's talk about some of the logistics. I've heard people offer up
trailers and box trucks. Are we really going to be able to collect that
much stuff in such little time? We don't even seem to have an accurate
list of needed items (which seems to differ depending on which
organization you talk to).
Due to the short time frame we have, we need to keep things as simple as
possible. I'm thinking everyone who wants to participate should attempt
to fill their own Jeep (or other vehicle) with needed items for an
organization of their choosing. But we need to have one person (Mike?)
contact each organization and post a definitive list of needed items.
I'm thinking the organizations to be contacted should be the Red Cross,
the Salvation Army and the Humane Society. Anything else? The forest
service? Once we have the definitive lists, people can choose which
organization they want to donate to and then seek donations.
This approach helps ensure we provide items that are needed while
allowing club members to work as independently as possible. We don't
want to get bogged down in coordinating things and lots of unnecessary
communication. Other than some up front work to identify the
organization(s) and their needed items, the only other coordinated
activity I see happening is the jeep caravan to Payson. I think we
should meet along the Beeline Highway (aka 87) near Fountain Hills
though I don't know how well that works for folks coming up from Tucson.
-Roger
g_rob_williams wrote:
>
> I dont have time to all the legwork for this. I like everyone else
> work full time during the day, and I have school mon-thurs evenings. I
> have already been chewed out once for as much time as I'm spending on
> these e-mails trying to clarify what is going on, and getting
> chastized by quite a few of you out there for even trying to do this!!
> I just tried to suggest something I thought would be easy to do, and
> to help out these people. Someone suggested I post it to see if there
> is an interest, and now I am the spearhead for this. I will be more
> than willing to help, but I can't organize it. I talked to my mother
> last night and we will be at the Payson relief site to volunteer to
> help with whatever they need. I still want to do the run, and have
> plenty of donations, but again, I can not organize
> this! -Rob
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57272 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:10pm
Subject: RE: fire run decal info.....
Make that two for me in black.
Joey K
93YJ
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Tomas [mailto:tomasr@a...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 12:15 PM
To: sign_xpressions
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] fire run decal info.....
I'd buy two in white.
-Roger
sign_xpressions wrote:
>
> seems to be some intrest in doing these, so let me tell you alittle
> info...the stickers are die cut decals...which is vinyl...the size is
> aprox. 4 1/2 inches tall by 5 1/2 inches at the widest part...being a
> die cut decal...the color of the sticker is the color of the
> vinyl...the parts in the image that are white will be the color of
> what they are applied to..(i.e. if you have a red jeep they will be
> red) ..this seem to be about as small as i can get them, and still get
> a good weeding with them (having my jeep like vehicle in the middle).
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~aduncanphotos/Images/Fire1.jpg
>
> i can't make them in a full color image cause that would take too much
> time...and i would need to do a huge run of them because we don't do
> that in house.
>
> for a sticker of this size they would sell for about the $5.00 range
> with the level of detail in them.....so the next question would be how
> much to charge with the profits going to the red cross or someone of
> that nature...i know what the profit margin of the sticker is so if we
> charged the $5.00 rate..we will get some money for the red cross...if
> people want to pay more i will just give the extra also.
>
> thinking of making some in black (like the image) some in white, and a
> few in red.....so my next question is how would we get together to
> hand these out...and how many are people thinking of having and also
> what color.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
57273 From: <itsajeepthing28@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 10:11am
Subject: Re: possible fire run decal?????
I think its a great idea.... However, really believe that it should be
Rodeo-Chedeski....
just my 2 cents...
Gary Oglesby
57274 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:13pm
Subject: [FS] Top For TJ Wanted
Price:
Contact: dandog12@earthlink.net
I need a black top for my 2000 TJ
Daniel Hopkins
57275 From: Jon Loveless-DSL <jloveless@d...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:14pm
Subject: 12" Magnetic decals
I still have 4 of the 12 magnetic decals that I retrieved from Hunter Offroad. If you want to claim them or buy them give a shout.
Jon
Jon Loveless
480-816-0963
jloveless@directvinternet.com
jloveless@delphi-tech.com
57276 From: FredTJ <fredtj@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:27pm
Subject: Re: Greens Screaming Foul
But the only areas that need "management" is the forest-urban boundaries. No
other parts of the forest need management. I taped an interesting thing last
night ( on the news ). One of the FS people were saying how the public icon,
Smokey the Bear, you know "only you can prevent forest fires" has actually
contributed to the problem, by instilling in people the thought that all
forest fires are bad.
They are NOT.... The forest needs fire. The only thing that is bad, or has
the potential to be bad, is fire on the forest-urban boundaries where
property and/or life is risked. This problem needs to be addressed,
certainly, and I'm sure that it will now. Thinning is require on the
boundaries, and I'm sure that soon, we'll see that happen. Logging
wilderness does not need to happen.
The primary reason that the forest are in the shape that they are today
(overgrown, too much fuel, etc), is a near century old policy of putting out
every little fire that starts.
If you look back at the Yellowstone fire, and how, "awful" everyone thought
it was. Well the Park is now healther (by virtually everyones vision) than
it's probably ever been in remembered history. The Park was really fire
starved. The FS is learning, and we are learning the hard way.
Why do you think that fire is bad ??
Regarding thinning. Logging, IMHO, is not the answer. The parts that need
thinning, again, on the forest-urban boudaries, are the trees that are way
over grown and way too thick. These are the smaller trees, not the larger
trees. The FS person last night, said the same thing, which surprised me
somewhat, as the timber industry is one of the main sources of income for
the FS and the timber industry is the one that wants into the deeper
wilderness areas and they want the big trees. So, logging won't remove the
fuel (which is the small trees, thick underbrush, etc). Logging will simply
remove the larger trees. It's all about money, and really nothing else. The
logging companies want me (through my taxes) to pay for the roads (that the
FS would build) so they can get to my (the National Forest belongs to us
all, right) forest, so that they can cut down my trees and make money for
themselves, not paying me a penny in return. To further all insult, much of
the timber would be sold overseas (Japan is on of the primary consumers of
American raw timber) and therefore the resource, or much of it, doesn't even
stay here.
The fires doesn't hurt the forest, even the really, really, bad ones, the
crown fires where old trees are killed, like the current fire. The forest
will recover and it will be healther because of it. The ideal thing is not
to have crown fires, as then there is nothing for the forest to recover
from. Regular burning doesn't hurt the trees at all, and it keeps everything
cleaned out. Crown fires do kill mature trees (as does logging), and in
those cases the forest does have to recover and that does take time. But
recover it will. Again, simply look a Yellowstone. Now, if we don't continue
to screw up, that forest will remain healthy on it's own, but it must be
allowed to burn when fires happen, except on the forest-urban boundaries.
Go back 150 years ago, or 200 years ago, before there was massive logging,
before every fire was being attacked. The forest were exteremely healty.
We've screwed it up. The FS service says the same thing. The forest has been
screwed up only during the last 100 years (almost) of us trying to "protect"
it. Smokey the Bear did more than anyone every thought that he would ;)
Best,
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Tomas" <tomasr@a...>
To: "Judith Raya" <jraya@a...>
Cc: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Greens Screaming Foul
> All these discussions center around treatment of the wildland-urban
> interface. They say nothing about the rest of the forest where the
> environmentalists continually push for more wilderness and roadless
> designations.
>
> Speak out both sides of their mouths, the environmentalists do. (yoda)
>
> Someone tell me - am I off base here or am I seeing through their
> smoke screen?
>
> -Roger
>
> Judith Raya wrote:
> >
> > Good day from the PCCFMU,
> > > The Center for Biological Diversity is wildly flailing about blaming
> > > everyone including the state of Arizona for the fires in the White
> > > Mountains. These people are so fanatical in their "love" of mother
> > earth
> > > that they will see her burn rather than admit to their mistakes and
> > > allow responsible land and forest management to take place. It is my
> > > belief that most of the leaders in the green groups are mentally ill
> > and
> > > in serious need of deprograming and therapy. Their "love" of the earth
> >
> > > is not love but an unhealthy obsession. What they essentially do is
> > > stalk their earth love and anyone who may have divergent interests or
> > > uses for it other than their own. Burning, terrorizing, intimidation,
> > > obstruction and litigation are their means to "protect" her ( in
> > their
> > > sick minds) from those they state would rape and misuse her.
> > > It is time to clearly draw the line between good land management
> > > practices and science, and the druidic, earth worshiping fanaticism
> > that
> > > is being foisted upon the people of North America by the green
> > > organizations across the country.
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Glynn Burkhardt
> > >
> > > Subject:
> > > Arizona Fire Update
> > > Date:
> > > 24 Jun 2002 23:39:09 -0000
> > > From:
> > > "Center for Biological Diveristy"
> > > <center@b...>
> > > Reply-To:
> > > notice-reply-i8gkwb4r78xmbm@a...
> > > To:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > NEWS ADVISORY: Monday, June 24
> > > CONTACT: Brian Segee, (520) 623-5252 x308
> > > More Information:
> > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > >
> > > STATE PRESSURED FOREST SERVICE TO HALT FUELS REDUCTION
> > > PROJECT IN RODEO BURN AREA
> > >
> > > GOVERNOR HULL SCAPEGOATS ENVIRONMENTALISTS FOR LARGEST
> > > FIRES IN ARIZONA HISTORY
> > >
> > > As Arizona faces its largest wildfire in history with
> > > hundreds of homes destroyed and thousands of people
> > > evacuated from their homes, Governor Jane Hull has
> > > seized upon the tragedy to advance her own anti-environmental
> > > agenda: On Sunday, June 23rd, Hull appeared on television
> > > to blame environmentalists for the fire.
> > >
> > > The Governor predictably failed to explain how environmentalists
> > > were to blame for the fires. Additionally, the Governor
> > > failed to mention 1) that a prescribed fire set by
> > > the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuel loads within
> > > the burned area was stopped by state intervention,
> > > 2) the vast majority of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > Forests have been previously logged by the U.S. Forest
> > > Service, 3) a recent report by the Government Accounting
> > > Office (GAO) found that only 1% of Forest Service fuel
> > > reduction projects were challenged with appeals or
> > > lawsuits, and 4) a second recent report by the GAO
> > > found that the Forest Service has misdirected funds
> > > from its massive fuels reduction budget away from the
> > > protection of rural communities threatened by fire.
> > >
> > >
> > > The Los Angeles Times recently reported that a prescribed
> > > fire set by the U.S. Forest Service to reduce fuels
> > > in what is now the Rodeo-Chediski fire was stopped
> > > by unwarranted intervention by state agencies:
> > >
> > > "When controlled burns were set recently in the Apache
> > > Sitgreaves National Forest, where the Rodeo fire now
> > > rages, nearby residents complained to state air quality
> > > officials about the smoke. The state pressured Forest
> > > Service officials to extinguish the blazes prematurely,
> > > Anderson (planner on the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > Forest) said. "Other plans to start controlled burns
> > > have been blocked by litigation, he said." (17 Blazes
> > > Charring the West, Los Angeles Times, 6-23-02).
> > >
> > > The Governor's scapegoating of environmentalists is
> > > fundamentally inaccurate. The Center for Biological
> > > Diversity (CBD), Sierra Club, Southwest Forest Alliance
> > > and other environmental organizations have long supported
> > > the use of both prescribed fire and thinning of small-diameter
> > > trees as the most effective methods to reduce fire
> > > danger within Southwestern ponderosa pine forests.
> > > Ironically, CBD sits on Governor's Forest Health/Fire
> > > Plan Advisory Committee, a group appointed by Jane
> > > Hull to advise governor on community protection and
> > > forest restoration issues and to make recommendations
> > > on where to spend National Fire Plan funds. We also
> > > are on Senator Bingaman's (D-NM) Community Forest Restoration
> > > Program Advisory Committee, which is charged with distribution
> > > of $ 5 million annually to rural communities for forest
> > > restoration and community protection.
> > >
> > > "The Governor is opportunistically and cynically using
> > > this on-going tragedy to further an anti-environmental
> > > agenda," stated Brian Segee with CBD. "Not only do
> > > we strongly support community protection efforts such
> > > as wildland-urban interface treatments, prescribed
> > > burning and small-diameter thinning, we are deeply
> > > involved in on-going collaborative and governmental
> > > efforts to make such goals a reality."
> > >
> > > Independent studies conducted by the federal government
> > > also directly contradict charges that environmental
> > > organizations are preventing needed fuels reduction
> > > projects from being completed. As stated in an August
> > > 2001 report by the Government Accounting Office (GAO),
> > > an independent investigative branch of Congress:
> > >
> > > "In summary, as of July 18, 2001, the Forest Service
> > > has completed the necessary environmental analysis
> > > and had decided to implement 1,671 hazardous fuel reduction
> > > projects in fiscal year 2001. Of these projects, 20
> > > (about 1 percent) had been appealed and none had been
> > > litigated. Appellants included environmental groups,
> > > recreation groups, private industry interests, and
> > > individuals."
> > >
> > > Under the National Fire Plan, passed in the wake of
> > > 2000's intense fire season, the Forest Service and
> > > other federal agencies were given over $2 billion
> > > to thin brush and small-diameter trees, with an emphasis
> > > on community protection. GAO research has concluded
> > > that the Forest Service could not account for how this
> > > money was being spent. In a January 2002 GAO report
> > > entitled "Severe Wildland Fires: Leadership and Accountability
> > > Needed to Reduce Risks to Communities and Resources,"
> > > it is stated:
> > >
> > > "Over a year after the Congress substantially increased
> > > funds to reduce hazardous fuels, the federal effort
> > > still lacks clearly defined and effective leadership
> > > . . .it is not possible to determine if the $796 million
> > > appropriated for hazardous fuels reduction in fiscal
> > > years 2001 and 2002 is targeted to the communities
> > > and other areas at highest risk of severe wildland
> > > fires."
> > >
> > > Finally, forgotten in the Governor's continued and
> > > escalating attack against environmentalists is the
> > > fact that almost all of the Apache-Sitgreaves National
> > > Forests where the two fires are burning has been intensively
> > > logged. Almost no area along the relatively flat and
> > > easily accessible Mogollon Rim has been spared from
> > > logging.
> > >
> > > For more information,
> > > http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/swcbd/Programs/fire/index.html
> > >
> > > (end)
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>