Keeping the Peace? or Police Brutality?

[Miles2go1979]

You decide:
Watch first (http://http://youtube.com/watch?v=TIYTJ75U4NU)

Watch second (http://youtube.com/watch?v=V8ndctwAJmU)

[macinyart]

There is a problem with the links.

[NVRSTUKXJ]

looked like keeping the peace to me.....the guy acted like an idiot....

[Washington_XJ]

lol I was going to post these last night. Personally those videos pissed me off. I think what those cops did was way out of line, they should have just removed him ASAP and delt with it outside- instead they tasered the sh!t out of him and made a HUGE scene.

Here's the fixed link and shows what happend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqAVvlyVbag&mode=related&search=

looked like keeping the peace to me.....the guy acted like an idiot....

You cant tell from the video he posted what he got the beat down for. Completely insane.

[Washington_XJ]

Here's a funny news edition by MSNBC about it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkjyKDtbCcI&mode=related&search=

[Hunter]

Looks like they did the right thing to me. Guy was a jackars.

Police Officers usually dont get to pick the place where you are arrested. You pick the place. They were walking him out and when they got close to the door, he tried to bolt by jumping around. Actually got away from all of them but one. At the point, games are over.

Nothing personal but your statement is classic of the frustration the Law Enforcement community has to deal with. A good friend of mine lost his son-in-law due a loser shooting him in the face while he was being cuffed for writing a bad check. (last month) He ran from the scene with one hand cuff attached.

Just yesterday my best freind and close neighbor lost his squadmember who was shot in the face as well. The 2 officers originally stopped him for jaywalking. itsa mircale the 2nd officer wasnt shot either. The bad guy fired 7 rounds at the 2nd officer.

Bad check and Jaywalking. 2 Wives and 4 kids who have lost their father and husband.

I guess its easy to armchair quarterback when a person sits at home and watch TV or the internet with your dinner and your family around.


Off my soapbox.

[twstdtj]

Looks like they did the right thing to me. Guy was a jackars.

Police Officers usually dont get to pick the place where you are arrested. You pick the place. They were walking him out and when they got close to the door, he tried to bolt by jumping around. Actually got away from all of them but one. At the point, games are over.

Nothing personal but your statement is classic of the frustration the Law Enforcement community has to deal with. A good friend of mine lost his son-in-law due a loser shooting him in the face while he was being cuffed for writing a bad check. (last month) He ran from the scene with one hand cuff attached.

Just yesterday my best freind and close neighbor lost his squadmember who was shot in the face as well. The 2 officers originally stopped him for jaywalking. itsa mircale the 2nd officer wasnt shot either. The bad guy fired 7 rounds at the 2nd officer.

Bad check and Jaywalking. 2 Wives and 4 kids who have lost their father and husband.

I guess its easy to armchair quarterback when a person sits at home and watch TV or the internet with your dinner and your family around.


Off my soapbox.

Well said

[NVRSTUKXJ]

well said John......

[AZLugz]

Looks like they did the right thing to me. Guy was a jackars.

Police Officers usually dont get to pick the place where you are arrested. You pick the place. They were walking him out and when they got close to the door, he tried to bolt by jumping around. Actually got away from all of them but one. At the point, games are over.

Nothing personal but your statement is classic of the frustration the Law Enforcement community has to deal with. A good friend of mine lost his son-in-law due a loser shooting him in the face while he was being cuffed for writing a bad check. (last month) He ran from the scene with one hand cuff attached.

Just yesterday my best freind and close neighbor lost his squadmember who was shot in the face as well. The 2 officers originally stopped him for jaywalking. itsa mircale the 2nd officer wasnt shot either. The bad guy fired 7 rounds at the 2nd officer.

Bad check and Jaywalking. 2 Wives and 4 kids who have lost their father and husband.

I guess its easy to armchair quarterback when a person sits at home and watch TV or the internet with your dinner and your family around.


Off my soapbox.


Well Said.


I don't like Kerry but this kid was strictly trying to cause trouble, further eveidenced by them taping it

[Washington_XJ]

Looks like they did the right thing to me. Guy was a jackars.

Police Officers usually dont get to pick the place where you are arrested. You pick the place. They were walking him out and when they got close to the door, he tried to bolt by jumping around. Actually got away from all of them but one. At the point, games are over.

Nothing personal but your statement is classic of the frustration the Law Enforcement community has to deal with. A good friend of mine lost his son-in-law due a loser shooting him in the face while he was being cuffed for writing a bad check. (last month) He ran from the scene with one hand cuff attached.

Just yesterday my best freind and close neighbor lost his squadmember who was shot in the face as well. The 2 officers originally stopped him for jaywalking. itsa mircale the 2nd officer wasnt shot either. The bad guy fired 7 rounds at the 2nd officer.

Bad check and Jaywalking. 2 Wives and 4 kids who have lost their father and husband.

I guess its easy to armchair quarterback when a person sits at home and watch TV or the internet with your dinner and your family around.


Off my soapbox.

Yes very well said but this situation is different. You've got a swarm of little cop women with a couple of big black cops, they had plenty of man (and woman) power to get him pushed through the door and outside. They could taser and beat his face into the wall out there for all I care, but from a political stand point they ruined Kerry's speach and just pissed alot of people off.

This is why they are being charged and the student is being released.

[Andrew F]

They were keeping the peace. The decided to cause problems, then he caused more problems, and then when the cops tired to take him out of the room to resolve the situation, he yet again brought on conflict. He should have listened. Everyone in the US now knows that cop can (and should) tazer a person who has repeatedly made a situation worse. On top of that, the cops warned the kid to stop or they were going to do it. He got the attention he was asking for.

[Tirith]

I have to preface this with a disclaimer: I am not LE and never have been, so I have zero experience with subduing and restraining people that resist arrest in real-life situations.

However, years ago, as a martial arts student, I was invited to attend a seminar for LEOs where the focus of the seminar was subduing uncooperative subjects. We were taught to subdue, restrain, and handcuff in teams of three: One officer to control and direct while the other two restrained from the flanks. Another student would act as the "perp" while we practiced the techniques. The perp was told not to hold back; in other words, do everything he could to keep from getting taken down and cuffed. None succeeded, including me.

What our instructor was trying to teach us was that it normally should not take a dozen cops dogpiling and beating a suspect to restrain him, as long as the LEOs are trained properly. So whenever I see a situation like this video, I have to wonder why the heck they can't restrain, cuff, and remove a guy that really isn't resisting all that much. Is it lack of training?

But like I said above, I have no real-world experience. What I learned may not be realistic. But I can't help but wonder: were they better-trained, would they have had to resort to tasering? While I think the guy was being an arse and deserved the taser, it was a bit heavy-handed. But if that is the only way they could subdue him, so be it. :cool:

As a side-note, the vast majority of the officers we trained with were poorly trained in the most basic techniques of restraint, locks, and break-lock techniques. And they also left their utility belts, with holstered firearms, just lying around unattended in the gym. Overall, they presented a very unprofessional image.

[amber.hodge]

When you have someone like a senator or other official on a stage with no body armor on that is possibly a target of hostility, and someone is disturbing the peace with the potential of causing a threat to that person or others in the area, I would hope the police would use whatever means were necessary or available at the time to meet and exceed the threat's force. IMHO this guy had it coming...If he has a problem with it, perhaps next time he should act with legal and peaceful means.

You really cannot take risks when there are assemblies with masses of people and one person out of hand. You don't know how far it will go - we certainly don't need another episode similar to the Robert Kennedy shooting.

[Fire Ball]

It is against the law to disobey the command of a law enforcement officer. Just because you don't like it, you don't have the right to just ignore them.

He was causing a public disturbance, he was asked to stop, he was asked to leave, he was told to leave. He refused and was taken down for it.

I don't see the confusion ?

[jpotts]

The police are recommending that he be charged with felony resisting arrest with violence.

I agree with some of you that the police should have done whatever necessary to get him out of there. But I don't think that what he did should be a felony.

[jporvaz]

LEO is trained to handle any situation with a minimal amount of force and to use that amount of force necessary to restrain an individual or to protect an individual.
The subject was asked to leave, he was then directed to leave with a gently persuassive pull on his arm and then a full grab to help him out. He resisted and became aggressive toward the officers. He escalated the situation. He had demonstrated by that time that he was not going to comply with the officers commands and had become physically aggressive. Had the subject followed the directions of LEO, nothing would have happened.
Once he was on the ground, normal procedure is to tell him to put his hands behind his back. I can only assume, as well as anyone else, that he refused.
Typically a person will put their arms under their body and curl as tightly as possible. Try removing a persons arms from under them while they are struggling with all their might to hold their arms under them and force them into a handcuffing position while the person is struggling. It is extremely difficult to remove the arms without breaking something or injuring the person. Martial arts training is great training, however it is not done with 10-20 extra pounds of restrictive equiment hanging off your body. The pressure point exercises create pain to obtain compliance. Kicks, jabs, pressure points are intended to inflict pain to obtain/create compliance. The taser does the same thing without permanent damage.
I am probably in the minority here, but I am career LEO, and what I could see from the video was not out of line. It was normal procedure and happens every day. The subject escalated this situation. LEO reacted. LEO did not create the problem. LEO brought this situation to successful conclusion.

[azrubyman]

Check out what this highly trained moron did to protect and to serve.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=1444771

Ken

[Kiwi]

from what I've read, this guy is a 'professional' This is what he does. Causes a scene and then tries to get the police to over-react.

I think the police were justified. He was asked to leave (right or wrong) because he was simply harrassing. Then, like he always does, puts on this huge jackass act, reists arrest, and then gets to be paraded around as a victim (I'm sure these lawsuits are also his primary source of income as well)

[Tirith]

Typically a person will put their arms under their body and curl as tightly as possible. Try removing a persons arms from under them while they are struggling with all their might to hold their arms under them and force them into a handcuffing position while the person is struggling. It is extremely difficult to remove the arms without breaking something or injuring the person. Martial arts training is great training, however it is not done with 10-20 extra pounds of restrictive equiment hanging off your body. The pressure point exercises create pain to obtain compliance. Kicks, jabs, pressure points are intended to inflict pain to obtain/create compliance. The taser does the same thing without permanent damage.

Very good point. When I took my seminar, tasers were not yet common or standard equipment. I can understand using the taser in lieu of physical force that may endanger the suspect or the officers. Why expend all that physical energy wrestling with someone when they can instantly be subdued with the device?

Kinda reminds me of that scene in "The Untouchables" with Sean Connery: "Enough of this running ****!" :D

[Miles2go1979]

I heard the audio on the radio yesterday morning on my way to work, I was laughing so hard I was crying! "Don't taser me ....ow!....ow!... ow!" it was hilarious. I love the sound of frying liberal nuts. The guy clearly wanted the attention and wanted to make it look like he was getting roughed up.

[Andrew F]

I heard the audio on the radio yesterday morning on my way to work, I was laughing so hard I was crying! "Don't taser me ....ow!....ow!... ow!" it was hilarious. I love the sound of frying liberal nuts. The guy clearly wanted the attention and wanted to make it look like he was getting roughed up.



When I heard it on the radio yesterday morning, they said it sounded like some one was giving him a titty twister and then didn't let go. I laughed so hard when I heard that.

[Hunter]

Yes very well said but this situation is different. You've got a swarm of little cop women with a couple of big black cops, they had plenty of man (and woman) power to get him pushed through the door and outside. They could taser and beat his face into the wall out there for all I care, but from a political stand point they ruined Kerry's speach and just pissed alot of people off.

This is why they are being charged and the student is being released.

Well, I hope then you are never put into this postion....

*Law Enforcement is haveing now haveing the most deadly (deaths per officers) in almost 30 years. This is on your mind, I asure you if you have on a badge.

*Not that long ago you had the worst mass murder spree at a college.

*You have a high ranking politcial figure on stage, exsposed.

*The room is full of people or who are political hacks, watch dogs and over zealous college students.

*A bunch of camera's and you know you are going to be on You Tube before you get home.

*You are going to be ripped and debated on a bunch of forums all over the world as people use the exspression Police Brutality.

*You see it as "Why cant they just push him out the door then take care of business.. " As an Officer, you are trained to see it as, "We got one wacko and 7 guns around him, we need him cuffed now."

*Now you got a 6 foot guy who is not doing anything you are asking him to do. He is being combative and resisting you the whole way while shouting to the crowd. He makes several attempts to flee and almost does it.

Oh and the whole world is watching with camera's in your face....

[desertdawg]

I bet that kid is from Washington and grew up in Las Sendas.

[LOST TJ]

Lmao!!!! Looks like his poppy never taught him "Fawk with the bull ya get the Horn!!!!" That was great. They should have zapped Kerry too. Just for the hell of it. :D

[Moriarty]

No incident like this is ever going to be perfectly executed. I am not LE and have actually had some pretty unsettling experiences with LE, but I will say that I don't see many things these days that make me say "that was way too excessive". Cops, Military, Fire, and Teachers I feel are the most underpayed and underappreciated folks out there. As Hunter was saying, Officer Lopez last month killed over a forged check and now we have Officer Erfle killed over a jaywalking illegal alien. If I was a cop on the street I would be making every descision based on the idea of survival at all costs. I would be thinking, "this guy might have a gun and shoot me because he doesn't want to do some small time for a small crime". These guys (cops) go out there and take all this risk everyday for minimal income if you put risk vs. reward into play.

Citizens should look at it from the cops side. As should of this kid at the Kerry thing. I bet if this kid was a whacko and pulled a zipgun and shot and killed Kerry then it would be "WHERE THE HELL WERE THE COPS AT? THIS KID WAS ACTING AGRESSIVE THE WHOLE TIME AND THE COPS JUST STOOD THERE AND DID NOTHING". Like I said no side is ever going to be perfect but you should no that if you disobey one command from a LEO you risk getting put down. But I guess if that kid was looking for attention, I am sure the Tazer got his attention real quick:eek:

It is a shame there are some bad cops out there (not in this case), because they really do manage to wreck the image of all the good ones. My favorite was the Orange County Sherriff (CA) deputy that got out of his car without saying anything to me and clubbed me across the back as I was push starting my VW Bug (dead battery) outside my work because "It looked to me like you were trying to steal it". This really did happen. Then kept me there while he ran all my information while the CEO of the company I worked for identified me as his employee and let him know that was my car. He didn't care. After the dust settled (I took pictures of the purple across my back) he was fired and his superiors had explained to me that 2 days previous to the incident he was bounced off a pickup by a fleeing kid. (I was 16). Well in that case, I guess I am glad he didn't just shoot the push starting suspect. :rolleyes:

Sorry this went long, but it is an interesting subject from both sides.
Never going to be perfect for everybody though

[desertdawg]

If that guy would have followed these simple rules he wouldn't have gotten his *** kicked.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekYr4zE7CDQ

[Moriarty]

If that guy would have followed these simple rules he wouldn't have gotten his *** kicked.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekYr4zE7CDQ

One of my all time favorites!!

[Miles2go1979]

When I heard it on the radio yesterday morning, they said it sounded like some one was giving him a titty twister and then didn't let go. I laughed so hard when I heard that.

ya gotta love the Brady Report, thats pretty much my only news source

[amber.hodge]

LOL Nurples - I heard that too.....I love the Brady Report....and Brettfast. I want Brettfast at work!

That video was freaking fabulous Mike! :)

[Hunter]

Oh man, I laughed hard, I so needed that. Props to Chris Rock.

[amber.hodge]

Also, with the recent police slaying......don't we all agree that when they simply stop someone for crossing the street illegally and are shot by the coward that they should take measures to subdue individuals who are obviously displaying disorderly conduct?

[Washington_XJ]

When you have someone like a senator or other official on a stage with no body armor on that is possibly a target of hostility, and someone is disturbing the peace with the potential of causing a threat to that person or others in the area, I would hope the police would use whatever means were necessary or available at the time to meet and exceed the threat's force. IMHO this guy had it coming...If he has a problem with it, perhaps next time he should act with legal and peaceful means.

You really cannot take risks when there are assemblies with masses of people and one person out of hand. You don't know how far it will go - we certainly don't need another episode similar to the Robert Kennedy shooting.

Ah yes, thank you- I was waiting for someone to bring this up. You are exactly right. Do you realize how many police they used on that guy? Almost every cop from that room huddled in around that student. Where's kerry? On stage. Do you realize how bad that could have been if someone else was in the room with bad motives? The cops were completely distracted and would not have been able to react in time if this was some sort of diversionary tactic (Kerry doesnt use secret service). Does it surprise me that they handled the situation like they did? No, not at all. As another member of the forum pointed out, during his martial arts training the officers who attended were quite unprofessional and lacked the skills of good take down procedures and this is why I said they should have used the linebacker of a cop they had to push him outside.

Nope, they looked like untrained city cops with poor control techniques to me. Should've had some state troopers in there- would've gotten him down quick.

[Hunter]

Ah yes, thank you- I was waiting for someone to bring this up. You are exactly right. Do you realize how many police they used on that guy? Almost every cop from that room huddled in around that student. Where's kerry? On stage. Do you realize how bad that could have been if someone else was in the room with bad motives? The cops were completely distracted and would not have been able to react in time if this was some sort of diversionary tactic (Kerry doesnt use secret service). Does it surprise me that they handled the situation like they did? No, not at all. As another member of the forum pointed out, during his martial arts training the officers who attended were quite unprofessional and lacked the skills of good take down procedures and this is why I said they should have used the linebacker of a cop they had to push him outside.

Nope, they looked like untrained city cops with poor control techniques to me. Should've had some state troopers in there- would've gotten him down quick.

Well, I watched the whole video and I have to admit, I dont think they could have handled it any different. I think the only thing they might have done wrong, was give the guy too much slack. If they were outside, they would have use the threat of, and most likely deployed OC (pepper spray) but if they had done that, they would have certainly cleared out the room and it would have affected the puplic. So they skipped it.

I am sure they other LEO on this board know all to will, but it someone doesnt want to get cuffed...it takes a LOT of effort to get the hand cuffs on and this was guy was fighting. Not too mention he was a big dude.

Oh, just so you know, yes I have had to hand cuff people who fought and its freakin hard. Also, I had to laugh about the Taser... Ha ha.... he didnt get Tased, he tickled with one of those pocket critters. IF he hadnt gotten really lit up, he would have shut up and had to be dragged out of there.

I guess long story short, if you havent been there and done that... you shouldn't rip someone from the comfort of your keyboard.

[Miles2go1979]

The guy seems like a proffesional "Rodney King Wannabe"... They knew what he was up to and had the reinforcements to take him out. Had he simply walked out, with is mouth shut, with them he would not have gotten tazered in front of every one. Unless he has some sort of terrets, there's no reason for shouting at the top of his lungs everything that he said. He was probably screaming Ow Ow Ow before they even shocked him.

[NVRSTUKXJ]

Ah yes, thank you- I was waiting for someone to bring this up. You are exactly right. Do you realize how many police they used on that guy? Almost every cop from that room huddled in around that student. Where's kerry? On stage. Do you realize how bad that could have been if someone else was in the room with bad motives? The cops were completely distracted and would not have been able to react in time if this was some sort of diversionary tactic (Kerry doesnt use secret service). Does it surprise me that they handled the situation like they did? No, not at all. As another member of the forum pointed out, during his martial arts training the officers who attended were quite unprofessional and lacked the skills of good take down procedures and this is why I said they should have used the linebacker of a cop they had to push him outside.

Nope, they looked like untrained city cops with poor control techniques to me. Should've had some state troopers in there- would've gotten him down quick.


they were probably afraid to use the proper technique (swift and violent LOOKING) for fear of being nitpicked by armchair quaterbacks like yourself....

[Washington_XJ]

they were probably afraid to use the proper technique (swift and violent LOOKING) for fear of being nitpicked by armchair quaterbacks like yourself....

Haha, you can say what you like but at one point they actually let go of him. Thats when he almost got away. You CANNOT say this is nitpicking. :rolleyes:

Anyway Im done with this topic, nice video Miles.

[desertdawg]

Ah yes, thank you- I was waiting for someone to bring this up. You are exactly right. Do you realize how many police they used on that guy? Almost every cop from that room huddled in around that student. Where's kerry? On stage. Do you realize how bad that could have been if someone else was in the room with bad motives? The cops were completely distracted and would not have been able to react in time if this was some sort of diversionary tactic (Kerry doesnt use secret service). Does it surprise me that they handled the situation like they did? No, not at all. As another member of the forum pointed out, during his martial arts training the officers who attended were quite unprofessional and lacked the skills of good take down procedures and this is why I said they should have used the linebacker of a cop they had to push him outside.

Nope, they looked like untrained city cops with poor control techniques to me. Should've had some state troopers in there- would've gotten him down quick.

You really crack me up! Obviously you have never been in a fight with somebody that is resisting arrest and does not want to go to jail. You can go through hours of training on defensive tactics but unless you are a martial arts expert or fight with somebody on a daily basis you are not going to remember all the tactics.

When your in a fight especially with a suspect who might be armed, you will do anything within your legal means to neutralize the threat before you or your fellow officers are seriously injured or killed. FBI statistics show that the majority of deaths and serious injuries among police officers are when the officers are trying to arrest a subject. We have seen two within the last two months.

If I'm a back up officer and a subject begins to resist, I'm not going to stand around and wait to see what the other officers are going to do, I'm going to take action and take him down before he can injure me or somebody else. The more officers that can help the better. That reduces serious injury and or death. My main goal on every shift on the street is to make sure my fellow officers and I come home safely.

You only see one side of it. You don't see it in the eyes of the officer. You don't know what's going through the officer's head (does this guy have a weapon, when to take action when not to take action, will I get into trouble if I do this, or will I get into trouble for not taking action, liability, SOP's, continueum of force, etc. etc.). We have to make split decisions like these on a daily basis. Then after it's all over and you either got bitten, spit on, or came into contact with his/her blood, you have to worry about what kind of diseases you may get or spread to your family. All you probably have to worry about is if your boss catches you surfing the net while at work and you get home in time to watch American Idol.

On another note, you also show how unknowledgable you are about Police training. What makes you think that State Police are trained any different from City or County Police. Here in Arizona, DPS officers train side by side with local city Police and every Police Academy in AZ teaches the same criteria, which is set forth by AZPOST.

Just because you're a state trooper doesn't mean your better trained in defensive tactics. Give me a break!:rolleyes:

[Miles2go1979]

I didn't mean to insite so much drama... I just thought the video was funny :rolleyes:

[WalterD]

Well Said.


I don't like Kerry but this kid was strictly trying to cause trouble, further eveidenced by them taping it


Absolutely what he said /\. The guy was dick and knew he was being prick. Was he being tasered? I couldn't tell.

[knockonit]

sounds more like a stun gun rather than a taser, either way it stings a little.

[GRUNT]

XJ, you got it all wrong brother. Having been MCSO prior to fire I have seen the before and after. If you are arresting someone, YOU DO NOT KNOW THIER INTENTIONS! As evident by the recent shooting in Phx. If someone does not comply, there is a reason... The reason you use many hands vs. one big guy is many hands can restrain someone with less force than the "linebacker" throwing him to the ground. Agreed, it looks worse when there are seven but he still resisted so they went to Tazer, which replaces the PR-24(nightstick compliance) If one big guy then, people like you would be crying, "The big guy beat him!" or "they struck him with thier sticks!" They could not use pepper spray due to the confines/adjacent people... Now instead of arresting I patch them up, and you know what they ALWAYS say?! "I should have stopped fighting" or "I should have listened"

Armchair quaterbacks come in all shapes and sizes! THey are on both sides of this thread. Perhaps the university cops were under trained, they don't deal with this on a daily basis like city cops. Here in AZ we have the benifit of all "peace officers" going through AZ POST training... Perhaps in seattle they turn out substandard municiple cops per your remarks. AND perhaps, he deserved it by not complying. Also coming out in the news today that our little journalism student may have planned this as publicity... We will all need to watch this unravel(sp?)

The obvious is that if he would have done what he was told NONE of this would have happened. I see these alleged "The cops hurt me" crap all the time, and I can bet my job that it is 99.9% false. The lib news just like to sensationalize everything, true or not... We all pay the price.

[azrubyman]

Check this one out. This highly trained and physically fit copper puts this criminal down. I think she is displaying Las Sendas gang colors. :D:p:D

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2007/09/20/sinkovich.woman.tasered.wytv

Ken

[GRUNT]

THis cop is a fat tub! He is trying to get her to comply... She should have complied, but he could touch tazer her, seemed like he was going overboard. He seems to have lost his temper but it sometimes it cannot be avoided dealing with these civilian turds.

[LOST TJ]

You guys got it all wrong. That wasn't a blonde chick. It was Ricky Rocket from the old band Poison. He needed zapped.....

[azrubyman]

Let me clear something up publicly please.
I can sometimes be a sarcastic SOB as I have been a couple of times in this thread. I picked a bad time to toss around sarcasm and try to be funny.
I should have been more sensitive to some feelings around here during a very sad time this week.
For that I apologize and I hope any I may have offended or upset will accept my sincere apology.
Ken