CO2 vs Nitrogen vs air

[Griz]

OK I see a lot of you are running CO2 to air back up, and I know Costco (and others? ) use Nitrogen, and of course regular air comp use air (which has nitrogen, co2 oxygen and who knows what in it) .
Does anyone know what the effect, if any, is on long term use of these different filling agents?:confused:

I will have to go to the local Prescott Valley welding shop to get some kind of tank to do what ever I decide. Unless air compressor of course.
Thanks

[rvisokey]

CO2 could, after some time, start to rot the inside of the tire and wheel. Of course it takes longer than the wheel and tires usable life so it's not much of an issue. CO2 does have small molecules so it will leach out through the rubber similar to plain-ole-air. Also, if you get chased by bad-guys, roll your jeep, and get trapped underwater you couldn't use the air in the tire to breath from while being shot at from above.:D

Nitrogen is inert. Doesn't harm the wheel or tire. It also has large molecules so it does not leach through the rubber. It's also less prone to expansion by heat/cold. Normally, whatever pressure you put in the tire tends to stay that way for some time.

My $.02

[cdhowell]

See this info. Nice article on expansion.

http://www.powertank.com/

[AZLugz]

Don't know any effects of CO2, but spent years as a crew chief for race cars. We used nitrogen tanks to air the tires, we would force out as much air as possible and then nitro fill them because: Air has more water in it and other impurities which heat up and swell. The tires on the Race car get over 200 degrees on the track and with air and that much heat, can swell up to about 12psi on a larger, more inflated tire but will change less on a smaller and less inflated tire (yes, inner and outer tires are different sizes and all tires are different pressures). Your cars track setup is VERY dependant on air pressures and a 12 psi change is real bad and all the tires change a different amount and screws up your setup....race 101 done and now, does this affect your Jeep, not much but it is the background of using Nitrogen. Where it does affect your Jeep is on the road driving to the trail on the highway. 70mph on the road on a large diameter, wide tire creates a lot of heat on a warm day. With air in the tires, it can cause a lot of pressure swell and possibly put your tires in an over pressure condition, prolly not enought for a blowout but enough to affect the wear pattern so they are only wearing in the center and hence is very bad for the tire and for handling. Nitrogen would minimize this affect and could make the tires last longer, lets face it, there are two place the tires wear the most, high speed on the highway and grinding up a rock face. I would assume that CO2 would give the same affect on pressure swell as nitrogen and therefore would also be better for the tires than air.

I use air and have an onboard compresser but I know the affests of air and adjust my tires based on that and the drivinng I will be doing, if I am going to drive the Jeep to Flagstaff for wheeling, I will drop my pressures slightly before getting on the highway.

Sorry for the ramble, but there it is

[TRLR8TDTJ]

Nitrogen is best for tires all around. It still expands with heat just not as bad as as air. The best benefit of Nitrogen in cars is the larger molecules. The ruber in tires is pourous, and over short period the smaller molecules in air just leak out. That is why your tires lose air over time. With larger molecules it will maintain correct pressure a lot longer.

If you are looking for something to take on the trail you are best off with CO2. It is stored as liquid, and you can fill up many tires with small tank.

Nitrogen is gas compressed in tank at very high pressure. Normally at like 3000 psi. You will only be able to fill minimal amount of tires compared to CO2. It is also dangerous to carry bottle with that much pressure in it on trail.

[Fire Ball]

CO2 is in liquid form in a tank where air and N2 are gas at ambient temps. Lots more CO2 in a tank. Air is nice since as long as you have power you can run a compressor.

[cross_007]

I got this off of the PowerTank website - should be helpful...Chris

Q: “Why CO2 instead of Nitrogen?”
A: "Volume". CO2 will give you three times the energy of Nitrogen in a given tank size. Having one tank of CO2 is like carrying three tanks of nitrogen. This makes it more economical and means that you’ll have the power when you need it all in one small tank.

Q: “Will CO2 leak out of my tires faster than air?”
A: No. The CO2 molecule is larger than a nitrogen molecule which is 78% of air.

Q: Why can there be no moisture in the CO2 in my tires if CO2 is called a liquid gas?
A: CO2 has the unique characteristic of being able to be stored in a dense amorphous liquid state under pressure (~800 PSI). When CO2 is at atmospheric pressure it goes from a solid (dry ice, -100F) straight to a gas (smoke on top of the Halloween punch bowl) and skips the liquid state. Don’t get CO2 confused with a more familiar chemical called H2O which goes from a solid (+32F) to a liquid and then to a gas. Does H2O condense moisture with temperature changes? Yes. Does CO2? No. Does CO2 cause H2O to condense more with temperature changes and cause Equal to clump? No and no.

Q: “Can the Power TankTM seat tire beads?”
A: “Hellyeah” and here’s another reason to get a quick release coupler for your hose. One of the advantages of the awesome power of the Power TankTM is its ability to quickly and easily seat tire beads without the need to remove the wheel from the vehicle or hassle with a tire tourniquet. All you have to do is lift the corner of your vehicle with the unbeaded tire. Get the tire straight and clean the rim bead. Remove the core of the wheel stem. Set the outlet pressure of the Power TankTM up to 200 psi. While pulling the tire out towards the bead of the rim push the end of the hose quick release coupler straight over the stem giving the tire a quick blast of air. The sudden rush of air into the tire will push the sides of the tire out and onto the sides of the rim. Hold it there until the tire has “popped” over the rim bead. Remove the hose from the stem and replace the stem core. Reset the tire pressure, lower the jack, and you’re on your way. No cinged facial hair! Monster ValvesTM also make tire reseating easier.



Nitrogen is best for tires all around. It still expands with heat just not as bad as as air. The best benefit of Nitrogen in cars is the larger molecules. The ruber in tires is pourous, and over short period the smaller molecules in air just leak out. That is why your tires lose air over time. With larger molecules it will maintain correct pressure a lot longer.

If you are looking for something to take on the trail you are best off with CO2. It is stored as liquid, and you can fill up many tires with small tank.

Nitrogen is gas compressed in tank at very high pressure. Normally at like 3000 psi. You will only be able to fill minimal amount of tires compared to CO2. It is also dangerous to carry bottle with that much pressure in it on trail.

[lancetkenyon]

Nitrogen is best for tires all around. It still expands with heat just not as bad as as air. The best benefit of Nitrogen in cars is the larger molecules. The ruber in tires is pourous, and over short period the smaller molecules in air just leak out. That is why your tires lose air over time. With larger molecules it will maintain correct pressure a lot longer.

If you are looking for something to take on the trail you are best off with CO2. It is stored as liquid, and you can fill up many tires with small tank.

Nitrogen is gas compressed in tank at very high pressure. Normally at like 3000 psi. You will only be able to fill minimal amount of tires compared to CO2. It is also dangerous to carry bottle with that much pressure in it on trail.

Sorry, off topic......nice avatar Kyle!!! How long ago?

[TRLR8TDTJ]

Sorry, off topic......nice avatar Kyle!!! How long ago?


Charlie was my inspiration. That was about six years ago right after I bought it.

Kyle

[Fire Ball]

Q: Why can there be no moisture in the CO2 in my tires if CO2 is called a liquid gas?
A: CO2 has the unique characteristic of being able to be stored in a dense amorphous liquid state under pressure (~800 PSI). When CO2 is at atmospheric pressure it goes from a solid (dry ice, -100F) straight to a gas (smoke on top of the Halloween punch bowl) and skips the liquid state. Don’t get CO2 confused with a more familiar chemical called H2O which goes from a solid (+32F) to a liquid and then to a gas. Does H2O condense moisture with temperature changes? Yes. Does CO2? No. Does CO2 cause H2O to condense more with temperature changes and cause Equal to clump? No and no.

.

To quote our cave man friend on the Geico commercial "Yeah I have a response....What?"

There is no moisture in tires filled with CO2 because CO2 contains no water. If it did it would freeze as it comes out of the tank. If CO2 is in a solid state at atmospheric pressure (dry ice ) it sublimates which means turning from solid to gas with no liquid phase. Ice can also sublimate. I dry northern climates ice and snow disappear over time when the temp never reaches the melting point because the ice evaporates or sublimates into the atmosphere.

If you DO have water vapor in you tire before filling them with a CO2 bottle, you could cause the water vapor to condense and freeze since the CO2 is turning from liquid to gas and needs heat to do so. As soon as the tire warms to ambient temp it will thaw and all is good in the world.


Hope that helps. Not that it is important :)

Oh and I believe the melting point of CO2 is -110 F

[Andrew F]

Nitrogen from Costco and nitrogen you get from a tank are two different things. From a tank is 100% nitrogen. Nitrogen from Costco is at most 90% nitrogen. CO2 is a better use off road, and you should never pay a tire shop for nitrogen.

[Fire Ball]

Air is roughly 80% nitrogen

[Griz]

Quote "Air is roughly 80% nitrogen"
I was thinking it was somewhere up there...
Thanks guys, looks like Nitrogen is a bit too high of pressure for what I want.
Although I still don't know what pressures CO2 fills to?

[AZG23]

Thanks guys, looks like Nitrogen is a bit too high of pressure for what I want.
Although I still don't know what pressures CO2 fills to?

800 psi.......

[Fire Ball]

A CO2 tank fills a lot lower than a N2 tank or high pressue air. Scuba tanks are around 3000#. Since the boiling point of CO2 is so low, there is plenty of heat in the air to vaporize CO2 in the tank, besides that dropping it from saturated temp at 800# to atmospheric pressure, is will instanly go to gas and make some frost on your valve in the process. Usually a long black hose will absorb enough heat to keep cold vapor from reaching the valve stem.

I run an onboard cheapo air compressor but it overheats a lot so I have to wait for it to cool down if I'm doing more than 4 tires. I'm thinking about fabbing up a CO2 tank for a backup.