Danger for off roaders

[azdesertrhino]

New Group Seeks Tougher Penalties For Off-Roaders 07-17-2007 7:04 AM

(Tucson, AZ) -- A group of former government workers is pushing for tougher penalties for off-road drivers who trample natural resources. The newly-formed Rangers for Responsible Recreation claims off-road vehicles are the top threat to public lands. The group is using data from the U.S. Bureau of Land Management to back up their claim. The group is pushing for heftier fines, confiscation of off-road vehicles, and suspension of hunting and fishing licenses. Off-road vehicle enthusiasts stress that many of them promote safe riding to preserve access to trails. One rider says it is usually a small group who spoils it for everyone.




http://www.peer.org/news/news_id.php?row_id=879

http://www.peer.org/campaigns/public...rv/rangers.php

http://www.headwatersnews.org/pr.rangers071007.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...ciTech_3011900
__________________

[jpotts]

Hmmm... I'm not so sure that this is a bad thing. Frankly, I'm sick of some reckless people making everyone else look bad. If implemented properly, this could be a good thing. It is a little bit scary though.

BTW, a couple of those links didn't work for me.

[pellucid602]

Hmmm... I'm not so sure that this is a bad thing. Frankly, I'm sick of some reckless people making everyone else look bad. If implemented properly, this could be a good thing. It is a little bit scary though.

BTW, a couple of those links didn't work for me.

You know what would be really cool? If they could just head shoot anyone they felt was encroaching on the "natural order" or anyone they felt was thinking of encroaching on the "natural order".
Frankly, Im sick of all you a-holes who assist in putting the noose around our necks. put a sock in your mouth already.

[jeeperapril]

You know what would be really cool? If they could just head shoot anyone they felt was encroaching on the "natural order" or anyone they felt was thinking of encroaching on the "natural order".
Frankly, Im sick of all you a-holes who assist in putting the noose around our necks. put a sock in your mouth already.

You must be one of those people which do not follow "tread lightly" rules. otherwise why would you make this type of statement?. Their are people out there on our trails which destroy the natural areas (unmarked trails) in vehicles of all types and even hiking trails. Trash, going off trail, breaking down shrubs, trees for fire wood etc. in areas which are protected. When you see them and tell them the wrong doing they are engaging in they are usually rude, and keep doing what they want. If they know their are penalties (pocket book hit hard, or loosing their toy) maybe it would help. maybe you should be shot for being such a closed minded Arss:mad:

[Papa Mo]

Hmmm... I'm not so sure that this is a bad thing. Frankly, I'm sick of some reckless people making everyone else look bad. If implemented properly, this could be a good thing. It is a little bit scary though.

BTW, a couple of those links didn't work for me.

I agree, It could be a good thing if implemented properly, but how often does the Gov. implement anything properly?

[06GrnRubi]

You know what would be really cool? If they could just head shoot anyone they felt was encroaching on the "natural order" or anyone they felt was thinking of encroaching on the "natural order".
Frankly, Im sick of all you a-holes who assist in putting the noose around our necks. put a sock in your mouth already.

I doubt if it is a record, but only 5 posts and you already have everyone hating you. Good Job!!!

Now go away!!

[jpotts]

You know what would be really cool? If they could just head shoot anyone they felt was encroaching on the "natural order" or anyone they felt was thinking of encroaching on the "natural order".
Frankly, Im sick of all you a-holes who assist in putting the noose around our necks. put a sock in your mouth already.

Do you have some opinion that you are able to articulate?

Are you going to stand in support of the idea that people should be able to drive all over the pristine desert? I think most people on this board stay on established trails. People who leave those trails give a black-eye to OHV and bring the scrutiny of everyone to the sport/hobby.

[jpotts]

I agree, It could be a good thing if implemented properly, but how often does the Gov. implement anything properly?

You're right. It would be a rare occasion if it was implemented properly. If this does go forward, hopefully, we will be able to have some influence to protect the legitimate use of trails. I just feel that it helps make our sport more legitimate if we endorse some regulation. I don't support people driving across the open desert and "blazing new trails." I also think that any support for that type of thing is a losing battle.

[Xiled1]

While agree with stiffer penalties in theory, I don't see this making any difference. The current penalties are rarely enforced. So stiffer penalties without enforcement does us no good. Its the same story, no money to enforce the current laws, so we get nowhere. But the government gets to say they are doing something about the probolem.

[SavageSun4x4]

"RANGERS CALL OFF-ROAD VEHICLES BIGGEST THREAT TO PUBLIC LANDS — “Rangers for Responsible Recreation” Launched to Combat “Wreck-reation”

Tucson, AZ — Reckless off-roading has become an acute law enforcement problem and is now the single greatest threat to American landscapes, according to a new coalition of rangers and public land managers assembled by Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility (PEER)...

... The coalition contends off-road abuse is creating chaos on our public lands and ruining the outdoors for everyone while overburdening an already strapped ranger force...

“There is no greater threat to our country's public land treasure than off-road vehicles. Additionally, they are killing and injuring too many young people because of improper training, operation and inherent safety deficiencies.”

The Rangers for Responsible Recreation are also urging a congressional inquiry that accounts for the real costs to taxpayers from off-road abuses on our public lands, as well as augmented law enforcement funding dedicated to coping with the avalanche of problems occasioned by reckless off-roading.

“Off-roading is becoming the most widely destructive, problematic and demanding use of public lands,”... noting that off-road abuse has morphed motorized access into a destructive “wreck-reation.”

“America needs a new national approach to what has become a plague on our legacy of conservation. No one has a right to abuse our public lands.”"

WOW. IMO this sounds like a bunch of WILD-EYED RADICALS border-lining on the edge of a lynch mob or terrorist group.

These folks are a DANGER to all users of OUR lands. They see themselves a saviors of the land against a bunch of rednecks.

If you come across one of these nut cases, be prepared for a confrontation, no matter what you are doing.

Typical of so many public servants that after a while feel they no longer work for the people. These are some self-righteous nutters.

Beware, they carry guns and will use them...they firmly belive "dead men tell no lies".

[Jdemonto@Airpark Jeep Sales]

You know what would be really cool? If they could just head shoot anyone they felt was encroaching on the "natural order" or anyone they felt was thinking of encroaching on the "natural order".
Frankly, Im sick of all you a-holes who assist in putting the noose around our necks. put a sock in your mouth already.


Welcome back PMFG.......maybe you want to actually contribute this time around?

.02

Jason

[azrubyman]

Like most everything else these days. There are already laws on the books concerning tearing up the desert and vandalizing the environment. So here is a concept...enforce the laws already on the books.
The ranger group mentioned are on the same level as PETA. A bunch of nuts.
KEn

[SavageSun4x4]

The ranger group mentioned are on the same level as PETA. A bunch of nuts.
KEn
According to them,Muslim terrorist are the least of our worries, its use off roaders that are the problem in this world... :rolleyes:

[NVRSTUKXJ]

I like how all of there "seasoned professionals" are retired or former.......

[Allen]

I like how all of there "seasoned professionals" are retired or former.......


Thats cause the cant put "fired nutcase!"

Really, I would like to see someone who is blazing into the wild held acountable, but if it come in a package labled no offroading it's not good!

[SavageSun4x4]

but if it come in a package labled no offroading it's not good!

One does not even have to "read 'tween the lines" to see that headline :eek:

[DustDweller]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]
Typical of so many public servants that after a while feel they no longer work for the people. These are some self-righteous nutters.

You definitely hit it on the head here, I run into those types daily. It is the "normal citizens are idiots and we need to figure out how to control them" crowd.

[lostoffroad]

im all for ticketing the reckless and ones who ruin the desert but think about this: if someone didnt "blaze" the trails we crawl now then what would we be doing? when a new trail is opened it had to be blazed a first time and we dont complain about that. its really the ones who go out and dump trash and the stolen cars that are dumped out in the desert that cause the real problems. this group of holier than thou dip****s wont stand a chance if we as a collective group of offroad enthusists pull together to fight for whats ours.

[GRUNT]

A lot of the trails we "wheel on are actual trails/roads from way back in the day. Most of which are no longer used for mining/ranching/settlements/whatever so they become washed out and deteriorate... Yes, I concur, the "ones who go out and dump trash and the stolen cars that are dumped out in the desert that cause the real problems." I am a gun advocate but I get steamed when I see the shells and targets left everywhere!!!!!!

[pellucid602]

Do you have some opinion that you are able to articulate?

Are you going to stand in support of the idea that people should be able to drive all over the pristine desert? I think most people on this board stay on established trails. People who leave those trails give a black-eye to OHV and bring the scrutiny of everyone to the sport/hobby.

The idea I am able to articulate is this. Government seeks only to increase its control over its populace. This is a prime example and sadly, the bobblehead sheep dont look beyond the "feel good" good guy exterior of turds like this.
Unfortunately, when people offer the viewpoint you perpetuate, it goes a little something like this. We want to put all child molesters in jail for life w/out parole. (including 18 yr olds dating 17 yr olds, flashers, peeping toms, etc).
Now the minute someone questions if this is a valid punishment, someone protests, "You arent defending CHILD MOLESTERS ARE YOU?" So, in this way bad "feel good" legislation makes it way into law.
These people are proposing SEIZING your vehicle for straying off established trails! What if you get lost, you are driving out of a wash in god knows where and lo and behold, there is johnny law waiting to sell your pride and joy at auction. Look at the big picture and you will see that like everything else people are playing on emotions to expand their control. Resist this with every effort or we will soon be fenced in like sheep only our pen will be 4" by 6".

[lostoffroad]

i know that a lot of trails we drive were roads but you cant tell me that terminator and asylum and the sort are old trails. those were forged by somebody with a vision who new what the heart of rockcrawling really is. im not picking a fight, just stating a fact.

[jpotts]

The idea I am able to articulate is this. Government seeks only to increase its control over its populace. This is a prime example and sadly, the bobblehead sheep dont look beyond the "feel good" good guy exterior of turds like this.
Unfortunately, when people offer the viewpoint you perpetuate, it goes a little something like this. We want to put all child molesters in jail for life w/out parole. (including 18 yr olds dating 17 yr olds, flashers, peeping toms, etc).
Now the minute someone questions if this is a valid punishment, someone protests, "You arent defending CHILD MOLESTERS ARE YOU?" So, in this way bad "feel good" legislation makes it way into law.
These people are proposing SEIZING your vehicle for straying off established trails! What if you get lost, you are driving out of a wash in god knows where and lo and behold, there is johnny law waiting to sell your pride and joy at auction. Look at the big picture and you will see that like everything else people are playing on emotions to expand their control. Resist this with every effort or we will soon be fenced in like sheep only our pen will be 4" by 6".

I do agree that seizing a vehicle for being off the beaten path is way overboard. Also, as some people have said on here - there are already laws that prevent people from traversing the open desert in their vehicles. I wasn't thinking in those terms when I originally posted. Perhaps, it would be better if the laws that are currently on the books were better enforced.

[jpotts]

i know that a lot of trails we drive were roads but you cant tell me that terminator and asylum and the sort are old trails. those were forged by somebody with a vision who new what the heart of rockcrawling really is. im not picking a fight, just stating a fact.

Those trails are in washes and don't damage the environment like driving across the open desert. When you go to Table Mesa and see tracks going every which way across the desert, that draws negative attention to OHV. That's the stuff that needs to stop.

[Fire Ball]

I agree with these guys in principal but that is all.

This is why the peer patrols are going to be very important.

Our biggest goal should be to educate these people as to what the consequences of their actions are.

If they keep doing it, then LEOs get involved and I do think the penalties for repeat offenders should be steep.

Talk about putting a noose around our necks, WE are our own worst enemies. We have to do something while we can or someone else will do it for us.

We need more education. We need better signage and to block all non approved bypasses. And hopefully least of all we need more enforcement, but only if we can't reach these bone heads. If you can't take a hint, stay home!!

[lostoffroad]

i totally agree that plowing through the dersert brush and stuff has to stop. otherwise we might as well get a loader and make a dirt lot out of it, j/k. the laws that are on the books need to be enforced. but it also comes down to the person, if they dont care then even if it is illegal they'll still do it and no amount of education can make a person not do it.

[amber.hodge]

by the thread title, I thought this thread was going to be about a sale at 4wheelers....but seriously, play by the rules or get your butt in trouble. Don't drink and drive, don't cut trails, don't litter or pollute the area, pack out what you pack in - in fact, it isn't that hard to pack other stuff you find out with you.....it is after all, nature, and if we don't preserve it we'll lose it.

[pellucid602]

Rules? Butt in trouble? Who makes the distinction? A bunch of self aggrandizing Jeep egoists bent on making the "sport" of ohv a polished, sanitized, cookie cutter pastime like bowling? "Hey honey, look out the window of our $80,000 wrangler, see that rock up ahead? We're going to go around it so that 'peer patrol' doesnt hassle us for leaving tire marks on it."
Or a bunch of special interest groups and crooked politicians bent on maximum profitability?
Jeep people should self police, lobby, educate those around them, but NEVER play an active role in pointing out the faults of others as its a pyyric victory.

[Fire Ball]

Rules? Butt in trouble? Who makes the distinction? A bunch of self aggrandizing Jeep egoists bent on making the "sport" of ohv a polished, sanitized, cookie cutter pastime like bowling? "Hey honey, look out the window of our $80,000 wrangler, see that rock up ahead? We're going to go around it so that 'peer patrol' doesn't hassle us for leaving tire marks on it."Or a bunch of special interest groups and crooked politicians bent on maximum profitability?
Jeep people should self police, lobby, educate those around them, but NEVER play an active role in pointing out the faults of others as its a pyyric victory.

This IS exactly what the peer patrol program is about! WE don't want it to become "Those guys who hassle us when we are out jeeping"

We want it to become a source of information, a way to educate people on proper safety and how not to negatively impact their surroundings. We want to be the go to people if you have problems or questions. The patrols are more geared for guiding people in the right direction and keep them from cutting trails and leaving garbage. We want to make it cool to care.

If they don't take the hint or can't play by the rules, Law enforcement will step in.

Since HB 2443 failed this is all we have right now.

As far as the comment about leaving marks on rocks, the peer patrols will be out in Jeeps, trucks, quads, and motorcycles. We are interested in preserving our past time, not harming it.

If I see you having trouble getting over a tough obstacle, I'll stop and take pictures, maybe even spot you if you want me to. If I see you taking a bypass you aren't supposed to I'll probably ask you not to and explain why. Then again, maybe not, it depends on the situation. We don't want to confront people out in the field. I'll contact the land manager about getting signs up and or getting this illegal bypass blocked.

If I see you going around a barrier or going some where that is obvious you should not be there or are defacing or destroying property. I'll contact the law enforcement officer on patrol with us and you will be arrested. That is the last resort and if it happens, you deserved it.

[John_P]

The idea I am able to articulate is this. Government seeks only to increase its control over its populace. This is a prime example and sadly, the bobblehead sheep dont look beyond the "feel good" good guy exterior of turds like this.
Unfortunately, when people offer the viewpoint you perpetuate, it goes a little something like this. We want to put all child molesters in jail for life w/out parole. (including 18 yr olds dating 17 yr olds, flashers, peeping toms, etc).
Now the minute someone questions if this is a valid punishment, someone protests, "You arent defending CHILD MOLESTERS ARE YOU?" So, in this way bad "feel good" legislation makes it way into law.
These people are proposing SEIZING your vehicle for straying off established trails! What if you get lost, you are driving out of a wash in god knows where and lo and behold, there is johnny law waiting to sell your pride and joy at auction. Look at the big picture and you will see that like everything else people are playing on emotions to expand their control. Resist this with every effort or we will soon be fenced in like sheep only our pen will be 4" by 6".

While I see your point...I bit mystified...what constitutes 'good' legislation then?

Also, are you not confounding the letter of the law with the spirit of the law? A lost individual does not seem to fit well with the spirit of the law.

[Fire Ball]

pellucid602 I have gone back and read all of your threads and I am very confused. What is your point? You seem to be very angry with people who are trying to preserve your past time or are you not actually an OHV enthusiast and are here just to stir up trouble?

What many of us in this group are trying to do is keep the government and the environmentalists off our back by educating them that we are not their enemies and in fact have some of the same goals.

Like it or not we have to play by the rules. The rules are simple, people who have the most money and make the most noise, make all the rules. Well we want to make some noise and raise some money so we can make rules we can live with rather than just have this stuff shoved down our throats.

The population of the US is growing. The areas we use for recreation are shrinking so they are under more stress. The sierra club has stated they would like all land with no maintained roads to be turned into wilderness. That means nothing but access on foot or horseback. (I won't even get into the impact horses have on the environment here).

That will put even more pressure on areas we DO have access to and then that area will be shut down. If we don't work together and start to figure this out, people who disagree with our way of life will make all the rules and we will have to take up bowling or some other "polished, sanitized, cookie cutter pastime like bowling?" as you said earlier.

[John_P]

Rules? Butt in trouble? Who makes the distinction? A bunch of self aggrandizing Jeep egoists bent on making the "sport" of ohv a polished, sanitized, cookie cutter pastime like bowling? "Hey honey, look out the window of our $80,000 wrangler, see that rock up ahead? We're going to go around it so that 'peer patrol' doesnt hassle us for leaving tire marks on it."
Or a bunch of special interest groups and crooked politicians bent on maximum profitability?
Jeep people should self police, lobby, educate those around them, but NEVER play an active role in pointing out the faults of others as its a pyyric victory.

Pyrrhic victory?

I have also been of the opinion that OHV needs to get involved, and be proactive in conserving and protecting the land.

If we are setting the boundaries, then we are in control. Even if that means constraining our own behavior.

[Fire Ball]

How do I know how this works? I have some land in the SE valley. People started driving on it where ever they wanted to. I put up signs asking to stay on the roads. The signs were torn down. Now the land is fenced and no one can cross it except on the easement. The trails have been there for about 8 years now and are just starting to show signs they may some day disappear. The damage done by a vehicle in this slow growing desert can last for 15 to 20 years.

If we do this right we can preserve our trails and our favorite past time. If not, we will lose it forever.

[azhayseed]

I'm new to this site but I feel I ned to say something on this topic.
First I live in the desert outskirts of Tucson and I go out wheeling fairly often.
I get sickened by all the trash out there. just about everywhere I go is strewen with tons of garbage where people use it as an illegal landfill. there is broken glass about everywhere I go especially around where the people are shooting.
I'm not part of any organized club, I do believe in Treading Lightly.
I used to have mining interests in the Bradshaw's. I was up there most every weekend and just every trip I made up there I ended up hauling a pick up load of other peoples trash out with me. How ever the U.S. Forest Service saw fit to harrass me constantly even though I did way more than my share to keep the environment as pristine as I could. I was chastized for planting trees where other miners had bulldosed all the vegetation.
The forset service close the roads that I used to access my mining claims even though I proved to them that these were existing throughfares from clear back into the 1880's.
I finally got so sick of dealing with the BS that I just shut down my mining operations.
I do feel that the Government wants to close down public access to all public lands
In Pima County it is illegal to drive in any wash or river bed. I feel this is BS since all it takes is one good rain to erase all traces of any vehicular travel in any wash.
I'm just venting!
I agree with the others that have stated that there needs to be better inforcement of the existing laws, not more stringent laws, just enforce the ones we have. And don't inforce them selectively! What pertains to the OHV crowd should also pertain to the ranchers, miners, loggers, etc.

[amber.hodge]

Welcome, and agreed! :D

[Sedona Jeep School]

Yes, something must be done. What we have been doing is not enough.

Stiffer fines may be one good addition to a more effective "enforcement" and here is why: As Ken said, what good are more rules if we aren't enforcing the ones we have? Enforcement is expensive, but word-of-mouth is generally free. So, if word gets around that running off-trail will cost you a bazillion dollars, then maybe it will stop a few more yahoos.

On the other hand, someone has to actually get CAUGHT once in a while for a deterrent measure to work, and substantiate the word-of-mouth claims. I can't tell you how many offenses I have witnessed and reported this year alone, and had exactly one known citation (which is one more than last year).

Our best bet is to continue to hammer away at the need for enforcement, plus furthering education through peer groups and the efforts of independent organizations like Tread Lightly.

[Fire Ball]

Sad thing is there are severe fines for doing dangerouse things.

Red light avg. $90
Right turn on no turn on red $90
Enter the gore point $400 yet people do it all the time. :(

If you have been given a warning, a fine and education about where you can't go and what you can't do and still do it, then take away the vehicles like they do if you are poaching.

[SavageSun4x4]

I do feel that the Government wants to close down public access to all public lands.

In Sun City that is called "BINGO!" It has NOTHING to do with saving lands, cleaning up our environment, global warming or anything else. It is the simple fear of a population that has access to 4x4, guns and feel that their right to be free is important.

It is all based upon "CONTROL". A government that does not or can not control its population cannot exert its will upon the people.

You DO NOT need a Jeep that can go anywhere and do anything if you cannot go anywhere to do anything.





On the other hand, someone has to actually get CAUGHT once in a while for a deterrent measure to work...



Maybe they DO NOT want to catch anyone. Start catching folks and throwing the book at them then you begin to lose the basis for closing the lands.

How many years have we in the gun owners community asked, begged, lobbied for automatic and severe penalties for committing ANY crime in which a gun was involved in ANY way? As far back as I can remember. Has the gun owers EVER received support from the anti-gun nuts on this? NEVER!

WONDER WHY?

[Sandee McCullen]

What most do not understand is PEER is just another Center for Biological Diversity only is made up of "past" BLM employees. Daniel Patterson (infamous CBD leader) is now with PEER. Only groups more radical than CBD are Sky Island Alliance (they don't have the $$$ of CBD) and Forest Guardians (these guys have protested, appealled or sued over EVERY Forest plan ever done) Take $$$..... absolutely. None of these guys will give OHV a chance.

Comments are right in the fact there is not enough law enforcement on the ground. There won't be either until OHV support a permitting bill that will allow US to fund law enforcement to protect our sport from the yahoos.